View Full Version : PvP and loot
Heya folks,
What is your opinion on whether the corpse of a victim should be completely lootable by the killer. This will lead to the following:
Pros:
1) PvPing folks will be using more store bought weapons.
2) In clans constructors will have a daily job to make a bunch of weapons to fight with.
3) It will be possible to defeat an enemy in the op wars when he has to take a break to make new weapons.
4) The death will mean a lot more than respawn, poke regroup and attack again.
5) Good money sink.
6) PvP will be open to non-capped players.
Cons:
1) Much less rares will be used in everyday combat.
2) Carebares will probably never gonna remove the LE.
3) Hard for noobs in terms of cash.
To address #3 of cons, the equipment you carry on you is insured so upon your death you get paid say 95% of its market value at some base price. Or the more you die the less you get paid by the insurance company. Also there should be a way to recover your insurance rating either by doing certain missions or something else.
What you think about it?
Edit: implants that fall out shall be lootable too.
i dont like the "completely lootable" part. Thats not Neocron.
Remove Quickbelts and drop items directly onto the floor, im all for that!
Im down for one random item from quick belt to be dropped on ground no belt hacking or safe slot bs.
But instead of just pvp make it all deaths just up the drop rate of rares from mobs.
The increased drop rate will fill the gap from rares that drop on pvm deaths where the weapon decays instead of being picked up by another runner or yourself.
If you make your whole inventory drop so many people will leave the game, newbs who take out the LE will be ganked and their stuff nicked and leave the game will make rares useless and may aswell remove them from the game and will promote a Ill only leave safezones with my whole clan incase I die mentality and will increase annoying gankers in the game so generally a bad idea.
Removing safeslot and adding random drops would be alright but not complete dropping of inventories.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
If you make your whole inventory drop so many people will leave the game, newbs who take out the LE will be ganked and their stuff nicked and leave the game will make rares useless and may aswell remove them from the game and will promote a Ill only leave safezones with my whole clan incase I die mentality and will increase annoying gankers in the game so generally a bad idea.
Removing safeslot and adding random drops would be alright but not complete dropping of inventories.
1334 !111!
Originally posted by L0KI
Remove Quickbelts and drop items directly onto the floor, im all for that!
its been done before didnt work thats why QBs came into the game
Prodigious
27-01-04, 13:49
Originally posted by L0KI
i dont like the "completely lootable" part. Thats not Neocron.
Remove Quickbelts and drop items directly onto the floor, im all for that!
completely lootable no, lootable yes.
but dropping directly onto the floor for some bastard to run past at full speed and pick it up while your parashocked or something.
still drop quick belts and go for the mobs system where someone tries to loot and it says "another runner has first priviliges to the loot" or whatever it says.
make quickbelts drop, no hacking needed, just open it up, and by the runner who did the most damage.
I am also all for 1 item to drop from a runner. No Safe Slot and no belts. Just items dropped directly onto the floor. For PvP & PvM. But the dropped items would not have to just dissapear after like 2 mins - they need to be there for a while.
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I am also all for 1 item to drop from a runner. No Safe Slot and no belts. Just items dropped directly onto the floor. For PvP & PvM. But the dropped items would not have to just dissapear after like 2 mins - they need to be there for a while.
Keep the belt system then with just one change: no hacking required, everybody can open it.
After a while with that safe slot 1 aolution I think the old system with random item from QB and inventory being safe was better...
Psyco Groupie
27-01-04, 14:43
indeed .. its fine
Originally posted by L3m0n
its been done before didnt work thats why QBs came into the game
Yes, i was there when it was done before. Imo, it worked a hell of a lot better than it does now.
The reason it doesnt work is this:
SPECIALISATION
You cant have 105 hack, and be a god with rifles/high tech pistols...
So the people doing most of the killing get none of their own loot. Please explain to me how this is fine!
I know a lot will argue with:
Take a spy with you to hack....
Who wants to play their spy in a PP Gankage? o_O
Originally posted by L0KI
Yes, i was there when it was done before. Imo, it worked a hell of a lot better than it does now.
The reason it doesnt work is this:
SPECIALISATION
You cant have 105 hack, and be a god with rifles/high tech pistols...
So the people doing most of the killing get none of their own loot. Please explain to me how this is fine!
I know a lot will argue with:
Take a spy with you to hack....
Who wants to play their spy in a PP Gankage? o_O
If you were there as you say you will know how many problems it caused, rare imps, rare guns droping all over the shop then some nib with a LE in would just pick it up!
im down with who did the most damg gets it like mob drops but this causes its own problems like with mob drops...
DarkPhoenix
27-01-04, 15:55
Originally posted by Babai
2) Carebares will probably never gonna remove the LE.
So your saying that poeple who dont particularly care for PvP or are not very good at it are carebears?
Most fuxed up thing I ever heard. Some people dont come to NC just for PvP. Some come for the experience. If people dont want to PvP they shouldnt be called names for it. Simple as that.
i wouldnt mind if the way it is now if the item that dropped was just in a open belt that the killer can pick up, as it is very few PvP setup char can take the loot they deserve, certainly a tank cant get the loot.
if they did make it so the item dropped into a belt, perhaps you could see people able to earn a living as the bad guy, a lot of time its a peice of armour that drops, normally worth a few thousand creds, so you would be able to get some income from being a killer
No matter how big and bad the PvPers CLAIM to be in Neocron, all you have to do is insinuate that they might lose their main favorite rare weapon, and they turn to carebears.
Thats cause realistic drop rules would hurt the PvPer moreso than the average player.
Now they are all for getting the drop of their targets... just not dropping their own weapon.
If you go back through the forum archives, you might be suprised which runners where advocating adding a safeslot to the quickbelt back before we had a safeslot (hint: it wasnt the carebears).
superfresh
27-01-04, 16:04
I think there wouldn't be enough room in the safezones for everyone.
I could quiet easily spec 80 (+20 from imps = 100) back into Hack on my PE and still hold my own with a Lib/Blacksun/stealth setup.
Originally posted by L3m0n
If you were there as you say you will know how many problems it caused, rare imps, rare guns droping all over the shop then some nib with a LE in would just pick it up!
im down with who did the most damg gets it like mob drops but this causes its own problems like with mob drops...
I know what you mean about the problems it caused, but im saying it doesnt NEED to be the SAME as it was before...
EXACTLY what Ezza has said...
Belt drops, but it doesnt need hacking...
Imps dont drop directly from your head, and slot 1 can still be safe if this is a big deal.
PS - I would GLADLY drop my 5 slot RoLH from slot 1, if i merely had the chance of grabbing that tanks 4 slot Devourer when i dropped him.
Also, i do understand that its fairly easy to spec for hacking, but what do the tanks do? :(
Its not even possible for a tank to hack quickbelts of any more than +10 SL. Hence, tanks NEVER get to loot their kills.
Originally posted by El_MUERkO
I could quiet easily spec 80 (+20 from imps = 100) back into Hack on my PE and still hold my own with a Lib/Blacksun/stealth setup. sure thats a PE, try that with a tank and still be able to aim the CS to kill the enemy :lol:
jez Strych9 your always having ago at the PvPers :(
:p
Doc Holliday
27-01-04, 16:21
amen ezza and rabbi. the belt drop thing without needing to hack will basically kill the hacker trade skill tho. the belt system today does mean hacking is a class u can do outside of ops. with hacknet this will change. So in response to the arguement yeah it could be fun but wait till hacknet/doy
Originally posted by ezza
jez Strych9 your always having ago at the PvPers :(
:p Well it frustrates me- I am 100% in favor of PvP, but the biggest obstacle to productive, fun PvP in this game is the PvPers themselves.
The PvPers tend to paint a picture like its carebears vs PvPers, but in reality its the PvPers that are battling against themselves. They seem to not realize that carebears simply dont care about PvP. The safeslot, for example, is viewed as a carebear item- yet its the PvPers that requested that to begin with.
Vett posts almost daily about how tough he is, yet he started a thread to ask for a safeslot on Neptune... ON NEPTUNE for crying out loud.
Thats the sort of thing that slays me. If the PvP community acted with any shred of consistency, I think this game would be a PvP paradise. :)
Yea but having the hackable belt system as it is atm gives spies a little more reason to exist.
More risk discourages PvP :( The easier it is to get into a fight and come out without losing all your worldy posessions (or the thing that lets you fight like, your gun) the more people will have a go at it
Ive lost a lot of stuff as a newb to high level tanks who thought it was fun to stalk the sewers and gank me. Its REALLY offputting, losing a weapon especially. When your a real newb, and your confused, getting back on your feet is so much harder than it is for the experienced players.
Id be in favour of setting things back as they were, for a week or two and then rolling the server back, just to see how people really found it w/o belts/safeslots again.
(and yes, I pvp about 90% of my NC time now, im capped and have little else to do :rolleyes:)
Originally posted by Strych9
Well it frustrates me- I am 100% in favor of PvP, but the biggest obstacle to productive, fun PvP in this game is the PvPers themselves.
The PvPers tend to paint a picture like its carebears vs PvPers, but in reality its the PvPers that are battling against themselves. They seem to not realize that carebears simply dont care about PvP. The safeslot, for example, is viewed as a carebear item- yet its the PvPers that requested that to begin with.
Vett posts almost daily about how tough he is, yet he started a thread to ask for a safeslot on Neptune... ON NEPTUNE for crying out loud.
Thats the sort of thing that slays me. If the PvP community acted with any shred of consistency, I think this game would be a PvP paradise. :)
This is sooo true :(
Anyway tbh, the whole PvP loot thing needs a nice huge rework starting with -SL being a viable way to play that does limit you to an extend but doesnt fuck you over like it does atm.
How about putting money into PvP loot as well if you dont want
to lose your items that much? Lets say 10% of your current cash when you die or something like this. A bounty system would be nice too.
With DoY PvP might change for us, but the system itself doesnt seem to change. Somehow the whole thing is just messed up :(
Originally posted by Leebzie
Yea but having the hackable belt system as it is atm gives spies a little more reason to exist.
More risk discourages PvP :( The easier it is to get into a fight and come out without losing all your worldy posessions (or the thing that lets you fight like, your gun) the more people will have a go at it the thing is, how many spies actualy are pvping, its others who do the hard work yet the spy gets the reward(or the hacker PE)
the reward from PvP should not be something hackers get exclusive rights to as PvP is for all classes
Originally posted by ezza
PvP is for all classes
Absolutely right.
I would like to get a reward when I killed someone, the same time I would not want to lose my own stuff...
All depends on how much you win I guess. My experiences of the system are bad because I was a /10-20 and there were loads of "1337 PKz0r's" who were obviously very 1337 for killing me :rolleyes:
BTW Ezza I agree with ur sig
It should be simple. LE users dont drop any items. If you want to participate in PvP and kill other runners, you must pay your "entrance fee" into the PvP realm. That "fee" is that you drop one item at random from your person when you die to another player. No safeslot. The rest of your stuff is in your backpack. The item drops to the ground, and can be picked up by anyone... friends, enemies, LE runners, whoever.
The ONLY harm in that is that PvPers would risk losing their precious rare weap. But its an equal chance for everyone.
I think then you would see people fighting again with non-rares, and you would see people that use rares likely to be the main targets.
I think that would rock.
Originally posted by Strych9
I think then you would see people fighting again with non-rares, and you would see people that use rares likely to be the main targets.
Sorta. but would you take a non-rare and fight a Rare user ?
Spose if there was a chance to get the rare yea. but wouldnt this just encourage people to go out in large groups to gank ?
Originally posted by Leebzie
Sorta. but would you take a non-rare and fight a Rare user ?Sounds like you as a PvPer would have a choice to make, eh? Do I use my 1 slotted CS, or do I use my 5 slotted TPC.
You would have to decide how important that extra damage is to you. Perhaps weigh the situation... are you in an Op fight or are you gonna go gank runners?
Are you going to be fighting honorably so that your opponent would be willing to give your weap back to you?
Whats wrong with that setup? :)
Spose if there was a chance to get the rare yea. but wouldnt this just encourage people to go out in large groups to gank ? How is that different than how it is now? Groups = power, no matter what the drop is.
It just means now there is an INCENTIVE to PvP aside from getting the kill... and that incentive is there for BOTH parties, both sides. Sure you can get ganked- so you have to decide if you want to roll out with your CS or TPC.
Choices choices.
Originally posted by Strych9
It should be simple. LE users dont drop any items. If you want to participate in PvP and kill other runners, you must pay your "entrance fee" into the PvP realm. That "fee" is that you drop one item at random from your person when you die to another player. No safeslot. The rest of your stuff is in your backpack. The item drops to the ground, and can be picked up by anyone... friends, enemies, LE runners, whoever.
The ONLY harm in that is that PvPers would risk losing their precious rare weap. But its an equal chance for everyone.
I think then you would see people fighting again with non-rares, and you would see people that use rares likely to be the main targets.
I think that would rock.
next time any of you die check what hapens once u click the gr our button
what your looking for is a slight lag while the server decides were your going and u stand up alive again at the sene were u just died for usualy less than a part of a second sometimes longer though
back in beta it was posable for some one to quickly click a gr and grab there item before it got looted
also if its a case of one item from your belt gets droped then when your on your last few bits of health and realise you cant win u drag your gun into your inventory (not if your close to wining though)
atm ppl are more likley to fight you rather than just stand around emptying there qb of all important items and dying which was the majour headache in beta
I never said a QB item, just an item on your person (which to me would be QB and inventory and armor, no imps). Yeah, I remember when people would start dragging crap from their QB when close to death. That should be avoided.
Now about that "grabbing your item before you genrep" thing- they would just have to code it so that isnt possible.
Lifewaster
27-01-04, 17:04
There is bad unbalance with safe slot atm, I think just get rid of it.
Some class can play in PvP with nothing to lose except a psi booster/medkit/level 1 spell or at worst a holy spirit armor or tank PA.
Other classes will stand to lose a spell costing several thousands, or at best a 50k spell.
So ya, lose the safe slot, then at last its fair for all.
Perhaps there is a happy medium
when a player dies, they drop an item at random (no qb safe slot)
including imps.
The only safe slot on the character is the 1st head slot.
Make belts 'pickup' able.
And only by non LE players.
The belt still needs hacking, but the victor (or theif) can take the belt and run away with it.
Belt's can then be hacked by other hacking characters, but only in non safe zones
Also if the belt isnt hacked when the player who has it logs, the belt is returned to the original player, which stops a grab run and log.
yea its just up to the pvp'er
Heh the more I discuss PvP drops and things the more excited I get about it. Nowadays I dont really get randomly ganked... and I can snipe *grins*
It could be pretty interesting
snipe and stealth?
o_O
you peeps need to be banned from pvp :rolleyes:
Well, I have been playing 2 online games for the last 2-3 years. These are Jumpgate and Neocron. These are completely different games but they both offer extensive PvP as well as non PvP activities.
Jumpgate: you fly a spacecraft, if its blown up, you retrun to your home station with noob gear, all gear that was on your ship is blown to bits. However you are getting paid an insurance amount which depends on you insurance rating, The more you die the less you get, but if you dont die for some period of time, your insurance rating goes up. There is a wide range of store bought equipment including engines, guns, etc. Also there is JG analog of rare equipment , but its not guns but shields, engines, etc, which are found in deep space and it may take about 1 month of searching to find a set for your ship or you can buy artifacts from dedicated searchers. These items are called artifacts in JG. They blow up as well as any normal equipment. PvP is very intense in this game and entirely skill based, i.e. your guns shoot where you aim and there is no reticle closing. Majority of ppl are fighting with stock equipment. The artifacts are used mainly by hunters who do not actively take part in PvP and prefer to fight AI or by a few skilled pilots who chose the risk to fly artied and yes they also die sooner or later but its just great fun to fly artied ship. The incentive for PvP in JG is just ur stats and political climate as all your kills, deaths, gun accuracy, etc are counted, recorded and can be viewd online. Also there is no LE analog there, but there is a so called "intention" switch (Civillian/Honor Guard/ Pirate). You get a bounty if you blow up a civillian ship, you lose all rights for insurance and ur position is transmitted thruout a space for bounty hunters to track you.
NC can go further than that and offer the loot of a defeated opponent, thus providing a lot more incentive to fight. Yes you will have to choose if you want to risk your rare items. But I think its wrong that PvP is viable only for those possessing rare guns, rare guns should give advantage but with more risk. And I can say that rares in NC are much easier to get than in JG. Well, just my thoughts after playing 2 completely different games for more than 2 years.
superfresh
27-01-04, 19:05
Attackers being able to loot their victim's belts makes good sense.
Took months for me to get a CS, so, as far as the safeslot removal goes, I'd have to say no. I don't want to fight with a TPC, and I don't think I should lose my CS in the event I get outnumbered by a bunch of monks. And I think that's exactly what would happen if this were implemented. There'd be a load of gangbanging. While gangbanging may be fine, getting rewarded for it doesn't seem right.
There's also the faction imbalance issue. The majority of people on any given server huddle into only a couple of factions. Removal of the safeslot would in essence mean you have a greater risk in joining a smaller faction (fewer comrades), and are safer and rewarded for joining an overpopulated one. This is in addition to all of the other advantages & disadvantages. Under the current system, I could, say, join DRE, and at least do my best to put up a good fight with the gear I've spent time getting myself. Under the proposed system, if I were killed I'd be spending half my time getting mediocre weapons built, on top of the SI penalty and getting pokes. I should be able to do my best for the faction I choose, not the one everyone else chooses. The safeslot helps me to do this.
Leave it.
i say leave the belt the way it is...cause hackers need more than just OP's and warbots...maybe ditch the hack requirement on belts when Hacknet is introduced....I wouldnt mind 12 SL or below you drop 2 items in your QB(then standard red SL rules apply at -16) and if you have +13 SL or better you only drop one item...but if they take out the hacking req you screwin over all those ppu's who have worked so damn hard to get 100+ SL so that their shit cant be looted
Matthew.v.smith
27-01-04, 19:22
Imo.
Once hackers get something new to do (HACKnet) their wont be much need for a QB.
ATM all u need hackers for is OPs and quickbelts and since OP take backs are rare and u have to be lucky to have a time to hack someone.
So once hacknet is here and hackers have soemthing else to do it would be better to remove belts and jsut have the Hacknet and OPs as hackable.
If this makes sense.
That way hack wont be a pointless thing to Skill (Hacknet + OPs instead of Just OPs) and it will be more rewarding to PK instead of Carebear o cron.
Matty.:angel:
How about a complete overhaul of PvP and let PvP give some sort of xp u can get with just PvM.
Lets say enuff ganking can get u str 101, 2, 3 etc.
Or some sort of new skill that can only be developped with "PvP experience". If u kill u get xp, if u die u loose some xp.
Havent really thought it out, just think that peoples turn of from PvP is the item dropping. I for one dont really like going into battle with my PPU and his 5 slot holy heal/shelter w/e. I spent fortunes for getting em and I'd hate to loose them. Thats the reason why I won't bring my topgear into pvp.
This will be the case for a lot more peeps I think, thus fighters arent fighting to the best of their abbilities and being held back by the quality of their weapons.
No itemdrops, BUT another incentive would make PvP a lot more fun for a lot more people.
Ow, and to discourage GR ganking in someones apt, you dont gain experience from a person when he is impaired.
My 2 cents
Remove safe slot
Imps are still undropable
Drop belt that needs to be hacked
The person who does the most damage can pick up and take the belt to be hacked at later date
---
Also while we are on the pvp subject how about a league table of runners u have killed - Friendly and enemy factions etc - I WANT STATS !!
Devils Grace
27-01-04, 20:53
i carry 5 rares on me so i dont care.........
but i think getin prize for pvp its just...hmm
pvp and win should be prize enough
i say remove the safe slot but hacking still need it
u cant have all worlds.....
as a pvper I think safe slot in directly makes people pvp beacause they can fight knowing they won't lose something so important, removing the safeslot will cause many unforseen problems, as alreayd mentioned in the thread. the system is fine. I can not think a better way of improving the system, right now the imbalance of factions on every faction makes the safeslot make sense. Some people are bound to die more due to their class,, faciton or clan so it would be unfair.
As for the unfairness on PPUs, well thats stupid because ppus rarely die so it balances out.
You'd be suprised how many people will suddenly think twice before joining a battle if you told them their rares would drop out. More for people who are not in a rare farming clan and earned every part through hunting, it would destroy their lives.
the thing is if it was always no safeslot it would be fine, but now suddenly iwth the safeslot people will not stand going back.
Originally posted by Rai Wong
...if you told them their rares would drop out. More for people who are not in a rare farming clan and earned every part through hunting, it would destroy their lives.
Its sad when an internet game can can destroy someone's life.
angelsenior
28-01-04, 14:33
I think this could be a better solution:
whenever you die, you drop the last item you were holding (which will prolly be your weapon).
In this case you KNOW what you will drop, which forces you to be very carefull in using your rare weapons and/or use a backup weapon.
You can always change to another item before you die so that you dont loose your weapon.
While on the other hand, since there a great chance for other people dropping their weapons, you can get a weapon back easily.
You shouldnt need hacking skill for this item though so everyone can pick it up.
Another possibility is to keep the random item drop in the belt (but no hack needed to open it) AND the backpack becomes hackable but instead of getting all items in it at once, you get 1 random item (as long as any item remains inside it), of course if you keep hacking it, each success will give access to one random item.
dead players can recover their backpacks through a gr as normal, so they should do it ASAP to keep from losing too much items.
backpacks should remain on the ground even after logoff (if not retrieved first, that is).
Regarding rare weapons, i think the condition loss should be a bit faster, so that these weapons indeed become rarer as they break down faster (rare weapons become a temporary goodie, you'll lose it at some point through qb drop or condition breakdown.
//edit this will make the environment more diversified as runners will have to turn to other rare/common weapons once their favourite weapon is lost, so some forgotten rares get used more often after all.
MjukisDjur
28-01-04, 14:36
cons
4 : a lot of people will leave and never come back
if it was drop the last item you were using then people would have a crap item in slot 2 and as soon as it looked like they were gona take the dive they would select slot 2 item and drop that
angelsenior
28-01-04, 14:43
Not necessarily,
If rare weapons are lost faster, it will make people more conscious of not to worry too much about em.
There is no problem in them changing to another item before death, there is still the chance of being too late to switch.
It also retools the current mindset of not giving a shit in pvp and just blast away as dieing isnt a problem now since you almost lose nothing valueable atm and thus should make players more careful.
Originally posted by L0KI
i dont like the "completely lootable" part. Thats not Neocron.
Remove Quickbelts and drop items directly onto the floor, im all for that!
then that would make most hackers point to live be utterly useless.........in my opinion anyways.......
Originally posted by Babai
Heya folks,
What is your opinion on whether the corpse of a victim should be completely lootable by the killer. This will lead to the following:
Pros:
1) PvPing folks will be using more store bought weapons.
2) In clans constructors will have a daily job to make a bunch of weapons to fight with.
3) It will be possible to defeat an enemy in the op wars when he has to take a break to make new weapons.
4) The death will mean a lot more than respawn, poke regroup and attack again.
5) Good money sink.
6) PvP will be open to non-capped players.
Cons:
1) Much less rares will be used in everyday combat.
2) Carebares will probably never gonna remove the LE.
3) Hard for noobs in terms of cash.
To address #3 of cons, the equipment you carry on you is insured so upon your death you get paid say 95% of its market value at some base price. Or the more you die the less you get paid by the insurance company. Also there should be a way to recover your insurance rating either by doing certain missions or something else.
What you think about it?
Edit: implants that fall out shall be lootable too.
This would either make me quit or roll a monk.
/edit
Forgot another option: i could lom my spy to a pure sniper and become unbelievable fucking rich. ;)
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