View Full Version : NEW WAY TO HANDLE FACTIONS. [another marx brainfart, read it damnit!]
Hey peoples. If you don't want to read, don't bother. Just vote yes and rate 5 stars. If you don't trust me, read damnit.
Alright, after reading a post or two I've been thinking more on this particular subject... As I and many other have in the past.
IDYAH?!
The idea of a 'no faction' faction.
HAY, NO FAKSHUN FAKSHUN? LOL U R DUM
No, hear me out here:
Alright, once a person comes out of MC5, they're already in a faction that they chose... well... before they even started to play the game. I think this hamstrings the player right from the beginning.
First off, they don't know how the faction they chose is currently working in their new world. Each faction is played differently on each server. Hell, if a person joined pluto and on a whim made their dude DRE, (s)he'd be a very lonely dude. This might even put the person off enough to say "Not worth my time".
Second off, the player doesn't have a reason to be loyal, or not loyal to their faction. Sure, if they decide to read the faction history, they might have an idea - but if they joined the faction as put forth by the players, then they might just have reason to stay. The current system coupled with epic items make faction whoring an annoying epidemic.
Third and lastly, the player is put right in the line of fire and will only be safe as long as their LE stays in.
LOL, U POYNT OWT OBVEEUS! HOW FICS?
My solution to this? The non-faction faction.
O I C
The non-faction faction is full of people who are not citizens of either city (DoY/NC), as such, they are not able to hold property in either city or anyplace inbetween.
Due to the conflict between each city and faction, those units fighting will try and recruit these 'undecided' people to join them in their fight. As such, each faction will be allied/nonhostile to the non-faction faction. This grants the person in the non-faction faction the ability to go anywhere and do anything.
Non-citizens will not be allowed to create clans. Clans created without the backing of a faction are nothing more than gangs, hooligans, and possibly criminals - as such, both cities and most factions will not allow it...
Non-citizens will not be allowed to have an amount of money which exceeds 500k credits. Just remember, the money is 'deposited' into your account... If you're not a citizen, you won't have an account, which in turn means you won't be able to hold substantial amounts of money (pretty much would be you holding reciepts and IOU's. :lol: )
Lastly, faction members will not be allowed to go back into the non-faction faction. The fact that they worked for another faction mars their reputation, and as such, they'll never be able to be 'neutral' again.
WAT WULD DOSE TINGS AKOMPLISH?
1.) The new runner now has a game mechanic to protect them while having all brain slots available.
2.) The new runner will now be able to join a faction that they feel represents the best in them as opposed to what 'sounds the coolest'. Since joining a faction also makes them a citizen, perhaps the new players who are just starting to understand the game will be more loyal to their first faction.
3.) Clans and factions can now have 'recruitment drives' and 'recruiters', both of which add to the general roleplay atmosphere. Imagine seeing signs in Plaza 4 where those NEMA signs are which have a scroll like "Join CA - Help us run the city", or perhaps hearing "The City Mercs are now recruiting! Visit the Con Center for more information" as you're walking through plaza 1. Just remember! All pro-city factions have recruiters in a central location now!
4.) The new runner has a safe haven for the time being, but as is made obvious, doesn't have all the perks of being a factioned person.
5.) The new player is safe, but not truly safe. (s)he is still able to be killed, but due to SL loss, the chance of it happening is dramatically lessened. Frankly, this is a better way to groom newbs and get 'em accustomed to PvP and such... Much better than the current "No loss up until the person is super high level and decides to take out their LE and dies and looses everything due to a dumb mistake" method.
WAT ABOWT NON PVP DUEDS WHO WANHT 2 JOYN FAKSHUN?
Well, in Neocron... The opinion people hold of you is what makes you. If you don't want to PvP, join a faction which doesn't PvP much or is as friendly as possible. Join a clan within the faction which has made a name for itself as a neutral in that particulars server conflicts. Perhaps you can start your own clan with the same ideals in mind... Maybe you can even go on your own and make a name for yourself.
Hiding behind a game mechanic prevents players from experiencing the whole game. Sure, they may be 'safe', but so's the kid in the bubble and the hockey helmet who rides the shortbus.
Experience > safety.
Vote yes if you agree, feel free to add stuff below.
Vote no if you like the current system.
Vote abstain if after reading this and playing the game you have no opinion on this particular matter whatsoever.
If you rate this thread 5 stars, please mention it in your post so as people will jump on the rating bandwagon.
Enjoy.
Edit - If I missed something blatantly obvious, chime in and let me know... I'll try to make up something to counter it!
You just never quit do you? Ima need some sleep before I read
that lot ;)
Excellent idea, I agree completely.
5 stars.
To be honest, this is an extremely well thought out, sensible idea that would fix a lot of the current problems. It fits in with the story line, it adds new dimentions to the game, it appears to be fairly easy to implement...
Best idea I've seen posted on these forums for a long time. Well done Marx, thats a bullseye you've scored there.
5 Stars and a yes from me.
Excellent idea...the only problem is the time limit.
Sure, people have lots of restrictions being nonfaction, but the idea with factions is to create conflict and force people to take sides.
The only thing i could add would be perhaps a rank limit or 25 or 30 rank before the person is FORCED to go pick a faction. Too many fence sitters would equate to very low pvp. =\
It's a tradeoff, and there's no perfect solution no matter how you look at it. Either way, yours is the best yet. 5 stars.
Q`alooaith
26-01-04, 03:11
little more devlopment needed.. but all in all good idea..
Extend it a little further..
Once you leave a faction, you can never return, so people who hop around faction's end up getting tied down if they go though them all..
going "Factionless" after joining a faction would put you into a new and diffrent factionless, hostile to everyone.. maybe..
Excellent idea...the only problem is the time limit.
Sure, people have lots of restrictions being nonfaction, but the idea with factions is to create conflict and force people to take sides.
The only thing i could add would be perhaps a rank limit or 25 or 30 rank before the person is FORCED to go pick a faction. Too many fence sitters would equate to very low pvp. =\
Well, I'm just thinking the money cap, and the fact they wouldn't be able to own property (no storage space) would make it so eventually they have to join a faction. How many rares can you get for 500k?
;)
People should be allowed to live like this, but there should be obvious perks to joining a faction, and in turn, the PvP world.
Once you leave a faction, you can never return, so people who hop around faction's end up getting tied down if they go though them all..
I like and support that idea, but I can see that there's alot of people who wouldn't.
:(
damn faction hopping bastards.
:p :p :p
:lol:
going "Factionless" after joining a faction would put you into a new and diffrent factionless, hostile to everyone.. maybe..
I say fix the current 'bug' which allows people to go factionless, and make killing faction people subtract major soullight.
I hate to use soullight as a fix seeing as I also push for it to be ditched... but the way things are now - only way I can see it...
Then again, it could be staring me in the face and I'm just oblivious.
Q`alooaith
26-01-04, 03:21
I do see another problem..
where do you send all these people when they leave MC5, since they have no apt's to goto..
where do you send all these people when they leave MC5, since they have no apt's to goto
OZ gates/Station
Stick a coupla' NPC's with a title like this.
NAME
New Runner Registar
They could say great stuff like this "Welcome to the City of Neocron, Runner. I greet you on behalf of Lioon Reza, our glorious leader. If you follow the signs, you will go further into the citys more habitable sections. We ask that you kindly move from this area as quickly as possible."
You could ask it some questions, etc.
Imagine messages in the OZ blurting "If you have not registered for your stay in Neocron, please do so now. blah blah"
You could probably do something similar for DoY assuming they go to MC5 or something.
o_O
One thing I forgot to mention above, this would also make it so the people who join FA, are really disillusioned former citizens of neocron, would make it so TG are really former citizens who saw the error of their ways, etc.
metalangel
26-01-04, 04:48
Or... just make it so these ppl have to buy an apartment instead of being given it.
Or better yet, bring back the BANK and add safety deposit boxes, so I could leave stuff SECURELY for my alts to pick up, as opposed to giving it to someone to hold while I relog. But, that's another idea for another post....
Q`alooaith
26-01-04, 04:50
But then nub's would have no safe place to GR untill they earned a ton of cashy..
And earning cashy can get you killed..
I like how faction's give you your apt... maybe make joining a faction, then they give you a short mission to earn the apt... or not..
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
But then nub's would have no safe place to GR untill they earned a ton of cashy..
And earning cashy can get you killed..
Make the GR from MC5 to OZ free
Move the OZ GR and have it labled something like "Reception Center", have that activated instead of the apartment one. Have the dude who I mention above explain the importance of GR's, whilst also giving the char 600 credits "For the purpose of activating four Gen Replicators throughout the city of Neocron"
Hell, plenty of ways to make the player more involved with the enviroment.
:D
Hell, if someone over in KK HQ was really bored, what they could do is make is so that train tunnel that's in the subway, but goes nowhere, go to MC5... -edited out due to being a retard-
I'm not a fan of that the more I think about it, but it would be cool nonetheless.
Q`alooaith
26-01-04, 05:10
MC5 a safezone...
are you mad.. how the hell do you kill mob's in a safezone, and that's the point of MC5, to get a few newb level's under your belt..
So maybe a few faction people in MC5 to tell new player's about the diffrent faction's, and when the player want's to leave MC5, join a faction then GR to the spiffy new apt..
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
MC5 a safezone...
are you mad.. how the hell do you kill mob's in a safezone, and that's the point of MC5, to get a few newb level's under your belt..
So maybe a few faction people in MC5 to tell new player's about the diffrent faction's, and when the player want's to leave MC5, join a faction then GR to the spiffy new apt..
Sorry, was a brainfart. Was thinking the glories of it being a safezone to help teh' newblars...
kinda forgot it means no weapons out, lol
:lol:
The only problem with that setup you put down is that the new players have no idea what the factions are like when they're in MC5.
What happens when they leave and realize that their faction is hated by everyone due to a power clan? They wouldn't be able to see that without leaving MC5 and seeing the world outside.
that sounds cool, i really like the idea of the east entrance being turned into the welcoming center. Definatly makes more sense that choosing a faction at the start then moving when you find your feet.
edit : spelling, punctuation and grammer, i gotta start sleeping occasionally oh and a yes and 5 stars heh
FunkEFerret
26-01-04, 05:17
I love this Idea....but I would want to expand on the only 2 real problems I see
Problem #1 Faction Sympathy + Joining Faction
Current system is You must have 50+FS and 300K if you want in our glorious faction
for a Factionless runner, might want to reduce that to say 20FS and they start with 10FS in each till they do missions. but they should still have to show a *small* comitment via a fee, say 10K
Problem #2 l33t PK d00ds looking for easy prey
*edit do to miss mouse click =P*
Current system, little SL loss maybe FS loss...no biggie
my thought - Massive SL Loss (-36 auto so they can't sit around to loose it) AND massive FS loss to ALL factions (-10 to all, it will come back....slowly) it may sound harsh but if we all need new recruits then why would we be killing the pot from which we choose?
To compinsate for the "Protection" I would put the old LE affects on a Factionless runner just without the LE =)
FunkEFerret
26-01-04, 05:17
I love this Idea....but I would want to expand on the only 2 real problems I see
Problem #1 Faction Sympathy + Joining Faction
Current system is You must have 50+FS and 300K if you want in our glorious faction
for a Factionless runner, might want to reduce that to say 20FS and they start with 10FS in each till they do missions. but they should still have to show a *small* comitment via a fee, say 10K
Problem #2 l33t PK d00ds looking for easy prey
Q`alooaith
26-01-04, 05:18
A good point...
Maybe the ablity to choose a side, Neocron, DoY or Merc when you start out, which changes where you go and where you can join.. pro city, anti city or neutral to city.. then you join a half faction, that make;s you pro or anti city... changes where you rep and what faction's you can readly join (maybe let you do mission's to join CA if you picked to look into anti city)
love this Idea....but I would want to expand on the only 2 real problems I see
Problem #1 Faction Sympathy + Joining Faction
Current system is You must have 50+FS and 300K if you want in our glorious faction
for a Factionless runner, might want to reduce that to say 20FS and they start with 10FS in each till they do missions. but they should still have to show a *small* comitment via a fee, say 10K
Problem #2 l33t PK d00ds looking for easy prey
Well, I would say no need for FS or cash, but once again that's just my opinion *shrug*
After all, the factions are trying to recruit these dudes, they need fresh meat for their war grind against their various enemies. Hell, these places will be giving them an apartment and a hypothetically paid position! (well, not that they actually see the money, but =P ).
As for problem 2, there's no way to protect one from the retards, junkies, and social misfits in the world. If the non-faction faction members are allied to all (since all factions are trying to recruit them) then the person killing them would lose SL and in the end only hump their own rump.
Methinks that would be the big thing preventing gankers/greifers from making a habit of slaughtering lines of these dudes. (especially since popping an LE in and doing missions wouldn't be an option anymore)
Maybe the ablity to choose a side, Neocron, DoY or Merc when you start out, which changes where you go and where you can join.. pro city, anti city or neutral to city.. then you join a half faction, that make;s you pro or anti city... changes where you rep and what faction's you can readly join (maybe let you do mission's to join CA if you picked to look into anti city)
Not too shabby.
You know what would be cool? Imagine the Merc recruiter in the con center, he recruites newbies. The elected faction head dude gets to look at a list of new players who joined, and has to arrange for transport up to MB, etc.
Imagine a Merc convoy, "Dudes, pile in the APC!", up to the MB.
*shrug* Yeah, this is starting to get fairly complicated (hay, I can dream can't I? :p ), but quite frankly, the elected faction dudes need to a.) start doing more for the faction b.) have more control as to what their faction does.
Anyway, talk about building morale within the faction - geez, CM would have brass cojones.
[/rant]
Psycho Killa
26-01-04, 05:44
It would be better if there was...
Neocron citizen... starts out in neocron but can later decide which branch of neocron he wants to join.. pp... tangent... city admin etc.
Enemy to all doy citizens and factions. (Will have to stay around the neocron area for safety.)
Doy citizen... starts out in doy but can later decide which part of the fight they want to join... Doy itself.. fallen angels etc.
Thats what I would like to see but thats just me.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
It would be better if there was...
Neocron citizen... starts out in neocron but can later decide which branch of neocron he wants to join.. pp... tangent... city admin etc.
Enemy to all doy citizens and factions. (Will have to stay around the neocron area for safety.)
Doy citizen... starts out in doy but can later decide which part of the fight they want to join... Doy itself.. fallen angels etc.
Thats what I would like to see but thats just me.
That's what it would be like eventually if done.
I'm just waiting on the DoY announcement before plotting for it. Because dependant on how many new factions we actually get, it might not be worth it to make a polar opposite the the 'welcome to NC' type deal.
Hold on.. how about a mid point? so the new runner is transported to a wastelands way station with one GR to DoY, and one to Neocron city? (poss one to MB too)
This is a safezone, accessable by all.. a neutral area where new people can choose their city before faction.. or take a look at both before deciding..
Isn't MC5 the mind control facility where those clowns either succeed into brainwashing you to pro-city or fail and you're anti-city. Why not have those factionless runners start somewhere in outzone or one of those villages (el farid, tawkeen, crest, calida etc).
ZoneVortex
26-01-04, 07:27
haha yeah this does sound neat...i vote the 5 STarAZ
Mumblyfish
26-01-04, 10:35
I five star the orginal idea, but I don't like where it's going. Surely the original idea was to start off in no faction because you have no idea about them, and need to learn more? Then why oh why are you suggesting needing to immediately be lumped into pro/anti-city if you have NO IDEA what either of them are like. Snuh! Better idea would be to start out in Neocron (most important place in the game), talk to people, NPCs, read the newspapers... and if you, as in your character, becomes so disillusioned with Reza's government THEN you can pack your bags and flee to either Tech Haven, the Canyons, or the Dome.
A little character development means EVERYTHING.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
I five star the orginal idea, but I don't like where it's going. Surely the original idea was to start off in no faction because you have no idea about them, and need to learn more? Then why oh why are you suggesting needing to immediately be lumped into pro/anti-city if you have NO IDEA what either of them are like. Snuh! Better idea would be to start out in Neocron (most important place in the game), talk to people, NPCs, read the newspapers... and if you, as in your character, becomes so disillusioned with Reza's government THEN you can pack your bags and flee to either Tech Haven, the Canyons, or the Dome.
A little character development means EVERYTHING.
This is very true.
[TgR]KILLER
26-01-04, 16:58
pretty cool idea all in all.. 5 stars
If players are to be given a choice AFTER character creation concerning who they want to side with, then it should be only after they spend some time in game.
You say a player can end up in DRE and be lonely- well, even after some other introductory period, a player might STILL like the idea of being involved in real estate. Unless that players is straight out exposed to player numbers- I dont see how they can make an informed decision.
Do you think Neocron will turn out with a decently scattered population if newbs are allowed to choose factions based on which faction's players do the most recruiting?
Plus there are factors concerning the epic rewards- as long as you can use the PP and MOVEON while not being of the original faction, you will have people changing faction just for those.
So I am not sure what problems need to be solved. As it is now, if you dont like your faction, you just need 50 FS and 300K. Lets take a look at the problems trying to be solved here:
First off, they don't know how the faction they chose is currently working in their new world. Each faction is played differently on each server. Hell, if a person joined pluto and on a whim made their dude DRE, (s)he'd be a very lonely dude. This might even put the person off enough to say "Not worth my time".[/B]Factions also change in terms of activity. What if a newb is heavily recruited by TG, and then a few weeks later all of the TG decide they want to switch to BD? Big shifts do happen.
If we are concerned about a balanced gameplay, I would think we would want some people actually participating in DRE and other seldom used factions.
If this came down to joining a faction based on how they are currently working, then we might as well do away with a bunch of the factions, as everyone would join 4-5 total factions.
Second off, the player doesn't have a reason to be loyal, or not loyal to their faction. Sure, if they decide to read the faction history, they might have an idea - but if they joined the faction as put forth by the players, then they might just have reason to stay. The current system coupled with epic items make faction whoring an annoying epidemic.Where does your idea inspire any sort of loyalty? It sounds like the decision to join a faction will be based on whichever faction has the most runners online at that time willing to sit around and pitch the party line to the newbs.
Third and lastly, the player is put right in the line of fire and will only be safe as long as their LE stays in.Not sure how that is different- only way that is changed is if the newb chooses to stay factionless for a while, and then they are allied with everyone.
But you say that the whole point is for them to be recruited. So if the recruiters do their job, the newbs WILL be put into the line of fire just as fast.
--
Then there is the abuse aspect. Alts will be used to take advantage of the allied status of the runner. Sure they can only hold 500K- but thats enough to run to TG for your CA alts and buy all of the fusion weaps and mods... etc. Sure that can almost be done now, but we are talking one runner having access to everywhere in the game at the same time.
If players are to be given a choice AFTER character creation concerning who they want to side with, then it should be only after they spend some time in game.
This is what I'm saying. The new player can be in the 'no faction' faction for as long as they want, but it lacks some very serious perks. The minute they want to join a faction, they would just need to go to say, the ConCenter for pro-city, the various PP places for the criminal element, TH for FA, TGC for TG, etc.
While playing in the 'no faction' faction, they would get to see the player dynamic, interact with people on a more friendly basis (seeing as people would refrain from killing them so as not to lose SL), and possibly see clans in action.
You say a player can end up in DRE and be lonely- well, even after some other introductory period, a player might STILL like the idea of being involved in real estate. Unless that players is straight out exposed to player numbers- I dont see how they can make an informed decision.
This is true, but alot of players join a faction they think will be populated; only in most cases they're not. If the player has the choice of walking around before making a life-decision, as I mentioned, they can see faction, clan, and player dynamics in action from which to base thier faction decision.
Do you think Neocron will turn out with a decently scattered population if newbs are allowed to choose factions based on which faction's players do the most recruiting
No, there'll always be power factions. But at least this method increases the players interest in their faction, and also makes more sense than the 'WAKE UP INTO A JOB' method.
If this came down to joining a faction based on how they are currently working, then we might as well do away with a bunch of the factions, as everyone would join 4-5 total factions.
It would be the job of the Faction Council, and Faction counsellor to encourage recruitment and retention.
Seeing as the faction positions do nothing at the current... I think this would at least make it look as though they're somehow involved in the game.
Anyway, as I mentioned, there will always be power factions that everyone and their mother wants to join, that's just the way it'll always be.
Where does your idea inspire any sort of loyalty? It sounds like the decision to join a faction will be based on whichever faction has the most runners online at that time willing to sit around and pitch the party line to the newbs.
1.) The new player chooses a faction based on what they think is best based on what they've seen.
2.) The faction gives the new player an apartment, sure that's nothing to you, me or any other old hand - but to a new player? Hell, they might look at a DRE vendor and see the prices... They would probably think it's out of their reach... Then wham they get one for free.
3.) If the faction council actually does what I propose, there would be a more homely feeling to each faction, as opposed to the current top-clan.
Not sure how that is different- only way that is changed is if the newb chooses to stay factionless for a while, and then they are allied with everyone.
But you say that the whole point is for them to be recruited. So if the recruiters do their job, the newbs WILL be put into the line of fire just as fast.
Allied with everyone, so now greifers would lose drastic SL when killing a 'no faction' faction member. After the next retail patch it will be impossible for anyone over xx/30 to insert an LE, therefore people would have a much harder time disapearing to do missions for awhile. Vice versa, if a person in the no faction faction decided to go nutso, they would succumb to the same issue.
And yes, the whole point is for them to be recruited - but it's their choice. If they don't want to PvP, they can join the more peaceful factions - or if they've been around long enough, they'd see the respected non-PvP clans and join their faction to be with them. Or they can stay no-faction, granted life will be more difficult for them when compared to life for a factioned person - but it is possible.
Originally posted by Marx
This is what I'm saying. The new player can be in the 'no faction' faction for as long as they want, but it lacks some very serious perks. The minute they want to join a faction, they would just need to go to say, the ConCenter for pro-city, the various PP places for the criminal element, TH for FA, TGC for TG, etc.We would have to make some huge changes in game to accomodate this. Getting to the city faction HRDs is easy if you are in the city. And even from Outzone like you suggest. But the newb that wanted to be TG would have a HELL of a time getting out to TG in order to enter the city.
And starting location will have a LOT... and I mean a LOT to do with what faction people lean towards. I cant imagine how someone starting in Outzone will end up deciding that CM is the choice for them.
Now if it was easier for a non-clanned person to get around, then maybe this would work- they would be able to go and sample everything.
Maybe have all non-Op genreps pre-tagged for non-clanned runners?
This is true, but alot of players join a faction they think will be populated; only in most cases they're not. If the player has the choice of walking around before making a life-decision, as I mentioned, they can see faction, clan, and player dynamics in action from which to base thier faction decision.See what I said above about the new players being able to move around.
But SHOULD player choices be based on population? I am not sure why that is good for the game.
I think factional choices, for newbs, should be based on the faction itself, not the number of runners.
If we base things on number of runners, like I said, certain factions would become extinct.
1.) The new player chooses a faction based on what they think is best based on what they've seen.
2.) The faction gives the new player an apartment, sure that's nothing to you, me or any other old hand - but to a new player? Hell, they might look at a DRE vendor and see the prices... They would probably think it's out of their reach... Then wham they get one for free.
3.) If the faction council actually does what I propose, there would be a more homely feeling to each faction, as opposed to the current top-clan.1. What ensures the player gets to see every faction? Faction counsellor propaganda != seeing the faction itself. I am not sure how a newb would get to see how every faction "really is" by your plan. Maybe the one they start near... or the one of the first runner that befriends them...
2. Not sure how that is an advantage to how it is now. Now everyone is given an apartment.
3. Agreed.
Allied with everyone, so now greifers would lose drastic SL when killing a 'no faction' faction member. After the next retail patch it will be impossible for anyone over xx/30 to insert an LE, therefore people would have a much harder time disapearing to do missions for awhile. Vice versa, if a person in the no faction faction decided to go nutso, they would succumb to the same issue.
And yes, the whole point is for them to be recruited - but it's their choice. If they don't want to PvP, they can join the more peaceful factions - or if they've been around long enough, they'd see the respected non-PvP clans and join their faction to be with them. Or they can stay no-faction, granted life will be more difficult for them when compared to life for a factioned person - but it is possible. Still, once they are recruited, they lose the protection. And its the job of faction councils to recruit. So the benefit of the SL protection is a short term one at best.
--
Overall Marx- your plan is contingent on the newbs being able to get out and see all of what each faction has to offer before making a decision. The current game system doesnt really allow that, even for a player allied with everyone, and if faction councils do their job, the new player will likely go with the first faction that appeals to them, rather than the one that appeals the most to them out of all of the factions.
So that is my only real beef- the fact that a newb has no real way to go and see whats up with EVERY faction in the game. And that is key for your idea to net the benefits you claim.
We would have to make some huge changes in game to accomodate this. Getting to the city faction HRDs is easy if you are in the city. And even from Outzone like you suggest. But the newb that wanted to be TG would have a HELL of a time getting out to TG in order to enter the city.
Perhaps a TG or TG friendly runner can give a 'no faction' runner a ride to TG? Starting in Neocron forces more player interaction, especially if you want your particular faction to get stronger.
Hell, TG are supposed to be people who want to fight back against CA to free Neocron - why the hells a newb supposed to feel that way? Perhaps because they were a city dweller before and were treated like shite?
FA is supposed to be comprised of disillusioned city faction scientists... IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT YOU CAN START AS A FALLEN ANGEL IF IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE MADE UP ENTIRELY OF REFUGEES.
DoY people - to be honest, noobs have no reason to join these factions. If they want to, they can go for it, but they need to make it to DoY (DoY runners driving them maybe?). Of course, this task would be an easy one if the runner was over say - xx/30ish?
And starting location will have a LOT... and I mean a LOT to do with what faction people lean towards. I cant imagine how someone starting in Outzone will end up deciding that CM is the choice for them.
If they start in OZ station as if they're people just coming into the city, I hardly see how that will effect someones output. Take the train and they're in PP... Since PP is the first stop out from OZ station, does that mean BD/TS will become stronger? Possibly, not probably.
Anyway, you seem to get the idea that the first place these runners will go is to become a faction member... They don't have to be for the longest. No one needs an apartment and no one needs more than 500k until they start getting in the rare trade -- at which point they would see how the way things are swinging on thier server and would join a faction based on their own desires.
Now if it was easier for a non-clanned person to get around, then maybe this would work- they would be able to go and sample everything.
This is what I'm proposing. Allied to all + push on recruiting = key people being nice to new runners to try and recruit them.
Maybe have all non-Op genreps pre-tagged for non-clanned runners
Maybe a village GR tagged 'Home'.
:lol:
Still, once they are recruited, they lose the protection. And its the job of faction councils to recruit. So the benefit of the SL protection is a short term one at best.
Then it's up to the player to actually play their role to make it so they don't get killed.
Overall Marx- your plan is contingent on the newbs being able to get out and see all of what each faction has to offer before making a decision. The current game system doesnt really allow that, even for a player allied with everyone, and if faction councils do their job, the new player will likely go with the first faction that appeals to them, rather than the one that appeals the most to them out of all of the factions.
So that is my only real beef- the fact that a newb has no real way to go and see whats up with EVERY faction in the game. And that is key for your idea to net the benefits you claim.
It's the job of the fellow players to show the newbeh. To offer them the appeals of their faction, and even if most players go to the first faction that appeals to them there's still a chance for a diverse population.
I understand your beef with this, but lemme put it this way. Now the red 'For experienced players" tag would actually mean something.
No more ideas on this?
(I'll pay someone who's fluent with german five million credits on pluto to translate and cross post. - PM me first)
Originally posted by Marx
It's the job of the fellow players to show the newbeh. To offer them the appeals of their faction, and even if most players go to the first faction that appeals to them there's still a chance for a diverse population.You are still putting the success of your system squarely on the shoulders of the experienced players.
The appeal of your system is that people get to see what faction is best for them. But they ONLY get to see that if they see EVERY FACTION.
Now for a normal TRUE newb, think about how much effort it would take for him to go on a tour of EACH faction... from the starting location to TG to MB to TH to CA and all of the city factions... would be a monumental undertaking, ESPECIALLY if you are counting one one runner from each faction to show the newb their faction.
The smaller factions would be hurt by this, in that they have less of a chance to have someone around for this. So the smaller factions get smaller, the bigger factions get bigger still. And that is NOT any sort of representation of "each runner ending up where its best for them."
I understand your beef with this, but lemme put it this way. Now the red 'For experienced players" tag would actually mean something. But we arent talking about experienced players... we have been talking about ACTUAL NEWBS the whole time right?
So are we talking about opening all factions up to newbs, or are we talking about keeping the wasteland factions for experienced players?
As the game is NOW (not including changes coming in DOY), what you say would make sense if the runners start in the City (Outzone, wherever). Then they can safely and easily be shown almost all of the city-based factions. Then later they can choose to become TG or FA or CM if they get disillusioned with their city life. That simple change alone would be enough to make your idea work.
Heavyporker
27-01-04, 17:47
While I quite like this beginner no-faction idea....
There's still work to do. (I'm going to stayout of the current faction issue for nwo)
I'm torn between having them pop out at a GR-enabled village (because, since they got their memory wiped, they can't remember their home and shit, meaning, why should they start in ANY city?!?! The GR system would pop them out at random at a village, okay?Yes, there's some rough spots out in the wastelands, but really, I think that it'd be okay to go this route - since there's Crest Village - nothing but noob mobs around, there's teh swampland villages (yeah... put a gr up at one of them, near the Old Greycore Outpost or the one just past the Regant Fortress', and there's Point Red, Sherman Village (prettiest brick village around, needs GR), etc - doesnt have to be El Farid and Educador Oasis, you know?).
But then again... this is MC5, controlled by CA, so in any case, stepping into the GR there would pop them out in Neocron City... yeah, let them be homeless (they got Gogo access and all those wooden boxes around...)
Again - i want to say that i LIKE this idea.
You are still putting the success of your system squarely on the shoulders of the experienced players.
The appeal of your system is that people get to see what faction is best for them. But they ONLY get to see that if they see EVERY FACTION.
They can see every faction. They can walk into the ConCenter talk to the greeters and HR dudes, they can walk into PP and do the same, they could walk into TG, TH, DoY and do exactly the same.
They could use the terminals to check on faction histories, clans that they've seen so far, various forums, etc.
They can talk to factioned runners, ask them how well things work in their faction.
And no, I'm not putting the success of the system squarely on the shoulders of the experienced players, I'm putting it on the shoulders of the faction councils who as of yet do absolutely nothing. They were elected to do good for their factions - I've yet to encounter one that fulfills that goal.
The smaller factions would be hurt by this, in that they have less of a chance to have someone around for this. So the smaller factions get smaller, the bigger factions get bigger still. And that is NOT any sort of representation of "each runner ending up where its best for them."
No, all it takes is one social player to hook people. Zu hooked me and some others into a PP clan once. I had no intention of being clanned at that point, but talking with Zu, and in turn the people in the clan was an experience. ( :lol: )
All it takes is one person to talk to new players. That's it. Stick a faction council dude out there. (As you can tell, I'm pushing the fact that it should be a faction council job =P)
Now for a normal TRUE newb, think about how much effort it would take for him to go on a tour of EACH faction... from the starting location to TG to MB to TH to CA and all of the city factions... would be a monumental undertaking, ESPECIALLY if you are counting one one runner from each faction to show the newb their faction.
Yes, this would obviously make a pro-city faction/clan desireable.
Now, as mumbly hinted at, there'd actually be some character development.
And no, I did not say that one runner from each faction has to show each and every new players the ropes of their particular faction. Would it be nice? Sure, I always like someone helping a noob, but this system would rely solely on the NPC's and terminals seeing as the aforementioned councils cannot be trusted to even know they've been elected.
But we arent talking about experienced players... we have been talking about ACTUAL NEWBS the whole time right
Quite frankly, by the time a new player actually starts making their way out to TG and TH, they're no longer 'new players'. That is of course unless they start there - in which cases most run to Neocron anyway.
:rolleyes:
So are we talking about opening all factions up to newbs, or are we talking about keeping the wasteland factions for experienced players?
I never said any faction would be closed to them. It's just they have to make it there instead of starting there. If a new player REALLY wants to be TG, fine - (s)he just has to find a way to get there from OZ station.
New player *really* wants to be a DoY factioned person, maybe he can talk a DoY factioned person into giving him/her a ride up north.
As the game is NOW (not including changes coming in DOY), what you say would make sense if the runners start in the City (Outzone, wherever). Then they can safely and easily be shown almost all of the city-based factions. Then later they can choose to become TG or FA or CM if they get disillusioned with their city life. That simple change alone would be enough to make your idea work.
That's what I'm saying.
o_O
They're allied to all, they're safe because NO one will willingly lose massive amounts of SL when they can no longer pop an LE in and mission their SL back up - that is unless red drop rules change anytime soon.
Runners would be able to 'safely' visit any faction, of course the more active factions which are actively pushing recruiting and retention would be bigger, as such its the priority of the smaller factions to get out there and recruit.
The new runner doesn't have to switch from a city faction to an anti city faction if they don't want to - as I've mentioned before, if they want to be a wasteland faction, they can be. They just either a.) need to make it out there by themselves or b.) talk to someone who can give 'em a ride.
edit-
I'm torn between having them pop out at a GR-enabled village (because, since they got their memory wiped, they can't remember their home and shit, meaning, why should they start in ANY city?!?! The GR system would pop them out at random at a village, okay?Yes, there's some rough spots out in the wastelands, but really, I think that it'd be okay to go this route - since there's Crest Village - nothing but noob mobs around, there's teh swampland villages (yeah... put a gr up at one of them, near the Old Greycore Outpost or the one just past the Regant Fortress', and there's Point Red, Sherman Village (prettiest brick village around, needs GR), etc - doesnt have to be El Farid and Educador Oasis, you know?).
Dunno, I'm partial to them starting at OZ station because well, they went to MC5 in order to be groomed for becoming a citizen. And frankly, at n00b speed, most people would be really pissed before they even got close to Neocron (seeing as most people would make a b-line straight to the city gates anyway).
Though I do think the wasteland villages need to be repopulated (click (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79739&)) I don't think this would be the best way.
But, that's just my take on it *shrug*
It still seems you are missing my point Marx. You keep responding about how things would be in theory but you dont deal with how it would work in practice.
Yes, a runner COULD go to ANY faction in the game. But it is silly to think that a newb... a real newb... could make it to TG (past the DOY replicants and fire mobs) to be able to SEE what TG has to offer in order to realize that TG is not for them. You might say "but the fact they cant make it there would show them that its too tough" but I would disagree- I think that would frustrate a new player, not teach them anything about TG.
Now you say
No, all it takes is one social player to hook people. Zu hooked me and some others into a PP clan once. I had no intention of being clanned at that point, but talking with Zu, and in turn the people in the clan was an experience.but that goes against what you are advocating. You said you want people to see EVERY faction and make a decision about what they like.
Did Zu show you the entire map? Did he take you around and show you what each faction does? Would he have an incentive to do that?
Of course not.
And thats what I am saying.
You idea WILL work, but it WILL NOT get the benefits you claim.
Specifically, you said
The new runner will now be able to join a faction that they feel represents the best in them as opposed to what 'sounds the coolest'.and that is where your idea falls short. What if a newb runner is ACTUALLY best represented by TG in terms of interests, yet they are unable to make it there on foot, and the only runners around that can drive are city-allied runners that cant go into or near TG?
Now if the newb had access to TG himself, this would work. Thats why I suggested having all non-op genreps opened up to the newb char- say until their rank hits /5. That would allow them to go to TG and go to MB without having to avoid WBs and Raptors. And then once the newb runner hits /6 or joins a faction, all of the genreps close like normal.
It still seems you are missing my point Marx. You keep responding about how things would be in theory but you dont deal with how it would work in practice.
Yes, a runner COULD go to ANY faction in the game. But it is silly to think that a newb... a real newb... could make it to TG (past the DOY replicants and fire mobs) to be able to SEE what TG has to offer in order to realize that TG is not for them. You might say "but the fact they cant make it there would show them that its too tough" but I would disagree- I think that would frustrate a new player, not teach them anything about TG.
Now you say
Then it would be the perogative of the person interesting in joining TG, to contact a TG agent and alert them of this?
:rolleyes:
but that goes against what you are advocating. You said you want people to see EVERY faction and make a decision about what they like.
Did Zu show you the entire map? Did he take you around and show you what each faction does? Would he have an incentive to do that?
Of course not.
And thats what I am saying.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING A NEW PLAYER FRIENDLY HUG FEST
I am advocating a world where the new player can make a choice on faction based on their experiences within the game as opposed to a lil' blurb on character creation. If a player wants to take the time out to do what you're stating, I have no issue with that - but am I saying that's what should be done? No. Have I anywhere in this thread? No. It's all about the player making a better educated decision; as opposed to the current stab in the dark.
and that is where your idea falls short. What if a newb runner is ACTUALLY best represented by TG in terms of interests, yet they are unable to make it there on foot, and the only runners around that can drive are city-allied runners that cant go into or near TG?
The TG is supposed to be a group of subversives - a sneaky lot. As such, the new player who's interested can:
Originally posted by Marx
contact a TG agent
Now if the newb had access to TG himself, this would work. Thats why I suggested having all non-op genreps opened up to the newb char- say until their rank hits /5. That would allow them to go to TG and go to MB without having to avoid WBs and Raptors. And then once the newb runner hits /6 or joins a faction, all of the genreps close like normal
You see, you want it to be easy for everyone to join whatever faction they want to join. I say, it should be possible, but not handed to them. This is where our opinions differ and clash.
But hey, they're opinions *shrug* we're all entitled to 'em.
edit - Anyway, seeing as they could get well up there in terms of rank before they even need to join a faction, the person might actually be able to make it to TG, TH, etc on their own very easily.
Originally posted by Marx
I am advocating a world where the new player can make a choice on faction based on their experiences within the gameif they have a proper set of experiences within the game, that is GREAT. If they get approached by a BD runner and 2 minutes later become BD because the BD runner makes it sound so appealing, then its NO LONGER based on the newb's experiences within the game- its based on someone else's experiences within the game.
And I dont see that as being superior to taking a stab in the dark at what sounds like it would be fun based on factional history, descriptions, etc.
as opposed to a lil' blurb on character creation. If a player wants to take the time out to do what you're stating, I have no issue with that - but am I saying that's what should be done? No. Have I anywhere in this thread? No. It's all about the player making a better educated decision; as opposed to the current stab in the dark. I am 100% in favor of the player being given the info to make an informed decision. Educate the newb.
Originally posted by Strych9
if they have a proper set of experiences within the game, that is GREAT. If they get approached by a BD runner and 2 minutes later become BD because the BD runner makes it sound so appealing, then its NO LONGER based on the newb's experiences within the game- its based on someone else's experiences within the game.
The person experienced this person telling them a grand ole' tale, did they not?
Therefore, the decision they make would be based on their experience.
Will the first person they run into be like: "Hay newb, c'mere, lemme tell you all about being a cool BD"? Possibly, not probably.
Anyway, the NPC greeter (since it will obviously be a CA-type duder) I babbled about on the first page can easily tell the runner something along the lines of "Be wary of Neocrons criminal factions, the Black Dragon and Tsunami Syndicate - though they won't be hostile to you, they are hostile to the support structure of the City"
That would be experienced too.
And I dont see that as being superior to taking a stab in the dark at what sounds like it would be fun based on factional history, descriptions, etc.I am 100% in favor of the player being given the info to make an informed decision. Educate the newb.
They can easily get all that faction blurb info off of the terminals. They can also use said terminal to look at clans, faction elections, how active the faction is, etc.
Granted, most new players won't look at a terminal unless instructed to do so - but hey, more questions and such for the NPC greeter to answer.
I very much like the idea but I tend to agree with Strych9.
People tend to choose on people not faction I think. If u wanted new players for your faction all u had to do was start passing out 5 slot knifes and medkits to new players and they'd be very tempted to join the faction of the person handing out presents. Thats just how it works I think. Also, if they get to know the game AND the strongest clans, what's stopping them from taking the easy route? They'll just join the majority and pick the way less likely to get them killed/loose stuff etc.
U could have a new player make the choice of either going to a faction immediately (for experienced players making an alt) OR give him the opportunity to do short missions for each faction, giving him the feel of what that faction does and give him a nice set of "usefull stuff" for his 1st 10 lvls. This would mean however they'd had to choose City/Rebel/Neutral sides at the start tho. It would be nasty to let him do a BT mission when he starts out near the canyons or DoY. This choice should also decide on what his starting out GR would be (City/DoY/MB).
If u let them start out on "no faction" they'd be persuaded by the 1st person that gives him nice and shiny stuff. There has to be a general choice of which side of the game u wanna play.
5 stars btw, one of the best brainfarts I've seen in a while ;)
Heavyporker
27-01-04, 18:44
I'm strongly against apts being put up at the villages.
For one, they're so damn small and low-tech, for another, i'm of the opinion that it'd pretty much ruin the ambience of the places with apt lifts and shit in every little nook and cranny of those villages.
NPCs should populate the villages, runners should just use them as touch-points for storylines, recovering from hunting or fighting, for hiding out, etc, but not for actually living in them.
The newbs starting out at those villages would strain them enough, I think, and any experienced players would know how to get there much better than said noobs.
Originally posted by KuifJe
I very much like the idea but I tend to agree with Strych9.
People tend to choose on people not faction I think. If u wanted new players for your faction all u had to do was start passing out 5 slot knifes and medkits to new players and they'd be very tempted to join the faction of the person handing out presents. Thats just how it works I think. Also, if they get to know the game AND the strongest clans, what's stopping them from taking the easy route? They'll just join the majority and pick the way less likely to get them killed/loose stuff etc.
U could have a new player make the choice of either going to a faction immediately (for experienced players making an alt) OR give him the opportunity to do short missions for each faction, giving him the feel of what that faction does and give him a nice set of "usefull stuff" for his 1st 10 lvls. This would mean however they'd had to choose City/Rebel/Neutral sides at the start tho. It would be nasty to let him do a BT mission when he starts out near the canyons or DoY. This choice should also decide on what his starting out GR would be (City/DoY/MB).
If u let them start out on "no faction" they'd be persuaded by the 1st person that gives him nice and shiny stuff. There has to be a general choice of which side of the game u wanna play.
Politicians do stuff like that all the time.
If the person wants to go and join, fine. But lets drop the idea that everyone and anyone will join up - because not everyone who will start playing will be that weakminded.
I'm strongly against apts being put up at the villages.
For one, they're so damn small and low-tech, for another, i'm of the opinion that it'd pretty much ruin the ambience of the places with apt lifts and shit in every little nook and cranny of those villages.
NPCs should populate the villages, runners should just use them as touch-points for storylines, recovering from hunting or fighting, for hiding out, etc, but not for actually living in them.
The newbs starting out at those villages would strain them enough, I think, and any experienced players would know how to get there much better than said noobs.
I agree that the villages should be populated solely by NPC's and players - with no apartments (for the same reason you put down)
However, none of the villages in NC at the current are very 'n00b friendly'. In most cases the lowest level mobs around them are wolves and contaminated/mutant bats.
Originally posted by Marx
Politicians do stuff like that all the time.
If the person wants to go and join, fine. But lets drop the idea that everyone and anyone will join up - because not everyone who will start playing will be that weakminded.What are you basing this on Marx?
The newb tries to run to TG and gets mowed down by mobs. He genreps, and then a friendly runner comes up and pays his recovery fee and gives him a 5 slotted knife and some medkits.
You dont have to be "weakminded" to say "screw TG, this guy seems nice enough, I will hang with him."
A true newb would most likely latch on to the first person that helps them feel more comfortable in the game I would think.
Heavyporker
27-01-04, 18:59
Well.. yeah, several of the villages are rough, but thats siply fixed by moving back the higher mobs away from the village a bit further (but still in same zone) and pushing the lower level mobs closer (the normal bats, rats, etc)
What are you basing this on Marx?
Politicians do it all the time. Ever hear of 'walking tours'? How about 'campaign gifts'... They go together like like ramma lamma lamma ka dinga da dinga dong (http://www.mlyrics.com/lyrics/42485/Grease/We_Go_Together).
To the politician and his aides giving out lil' chachka (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=chachka), those things (s)he's giving out mean nothing to them at all. But hey, that's how local elections are won.
The newb tries to run to TG and gets mowed down by mobs. He genreps, and then a friendly runner comes up and pays his recovery fee and gives him a 5 slotted knife and some medkits.
You dont have to be "weakminded" to say "screw TG, this guy seems nice enough, I will hang with him."
So the person experienced something which changed his/her opinion - how is that bad?
Anyway, it's not like people can't switch factions after joining one; it's just more difficult (the current standard)
A true newb would most likely latch on to the first person that helps them feel more comfortable in the game I would think.
Once again, that's your opinion, I can't change it, though I can say that mine is different.
Deanus_willis
27-01-04, 20:49
superb idea
5 stars *****
Originally posted by Marx
Politicians do it all the time. Ever hear of 'walking tours'? How about 'campaign gifts'... They go together like like ramma lamma lamma ka dinga da dinga dong (http://www.mlyrics.com/lyrics/42485/Grease/We_Go_Together).
To the politician and his aides giving out lil' chachka (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=chachka), those things (s)he's giving out mean nothing to them at all. But hey, that's how local elections are won.LOL. No Marx. I meant what did you base this idea on:
But lets drop the idea that everyone and anyone will join up - because not everyone who will start playing will be that weakminded.I fully understood what you meant about politicians doing it.
If it didnt work (if people werent that weak minded) politicians wouldnt be doing it so much like you so gracefully point out.
I am saying it works- players WILL join up with the first person that comes along and helps them out, regardless of how well that faction suits them. And having them join a faction that suits them is our goal.
So the person experienced something which changed his/her opinion - how is that bad?You said yourself that they should get an impression of the faction itself. Getting killed by a DOY replicant a few sectors away from TG proper does not constitute an impression of the TG faction.
Having an impression is not bad- but that impression is not the enlightment you are after with your idea.
If THAT is the sort of impression you want, then its really random again- whichever HQ they first try to walk towards will likely give the that impression. "The MB has WBs around it, and they killed me. CM must suck as a faction." Not very accurate.
Anyway, it's not like people can't switch factions after joining one; it's just more difficult (the current standard)RIGHT. I agree- right now people can switch factions. That is the argument that people against you can make- that people can switch factions now. So I am not sure why you are stating that same thing...
Like I said, your idea will work fine, but it will not lead to any better faction selection than we have now. I think its easier for people to read about factions outside of game, rather than inside.
The ONLY way to get a good idea of what a faction is like is to BE a member of that faction. Then and only then can you make an informed judgement.
Obviously a newb cant be a member of all factions at once... so let them read about the RP of the faction, pick one, try it out, and then switch if they dont like it.
There may be a noob out there that would love the idea of DRE and will one day become a real estate tycoon in Neocron. Current system, he reads the descriptions, decides he likes DRE, and then gets to work. Under your system, he enters the game, has to contact and wait for a DRE agent to contact him to help him get into the city...
I am saying it works- players WILL join up with the first person that comes along and helps them out, regardless of how well that faction suits them. And having them join a faction that suits them is our goal.
It does work for some, but not for everyone - as I stated. Sure, a lil' trinket with a politicians name may 'sway the vote' for some, but for others it takes alot more than a keychain to make a decision.
I am saying it works- players WILL join up with the first person that comes along and helps them out, regardless of how well that faction suits them. And having them join a faction that suits them is our goal
Once again, I never said what you're saying isn't correct. Players will join the faction with the nice people they've delt with. I say that not all players will do so - I also say that if the factions do their job, you'd still have a diverse population.
You said yourself that they should get an impression of the faction itself. Getting killed by a DOY replicant a few sectors away from TG proper does not constitute an impression of the TG faction.
Having an impression is not bad- but that impression is not the enlightment you are after with your idea.
If THAT is the sort of impression you want, then its really random again- whichever HQ they first try to walk towards will likely give the that impression. "The MB has WBs around it, and they killed me. CM must suck as a faction." Not very accurate.
Getting killed by a Y-rep (CA made these, remember that) shows nothing of the status of the Twilight Guardian. Getting helped by a person who's in the faction *does* show the partial status. It may not show that it's full of OP war junkies or PKARS, it may not show that it's full of rich people, what it might show is that it has nicer people or more concerned people.
Anyway, my idea is simple, I hate how you're complicating it within this argument. There is no enlightenment - The simple fact is people are joining factions before even starting to play the game, of which they have no idea how it involves itself in the world. Sure, they may read the blurb and think 'HAY, TANGANT MAYK GUNS' but lets look; on Pluto, Tangent was the heavy handed pro-city faction for the longest. They were doing the job of the City Admin - instead of doing the job of a simple weapons manufacturer. For this reason, alot of factions at the time killed any or all Tangents they came across. Then it had it's period of becoming a tradeskill faction again - then it went back to heavy handed.
A new player would not know this with the current system, would leave MC5 and be in a bad position. Sure (s)he may have a LE in, but it doesn't change the fact that at that current time, should they remove it, they'd probably get nailed.
Looking at the players we have now - the chances of what you're touting as a guarenteed occurence would only happen occasionally. Maybe some people would do it in the start - but in the end most people aren't going to give up their time to try and convince people to join their faction if they're not a super duper PvP duder. So lets push aside these daydreams of everyone and their mother in one faction. Because if you haven't noticed, life is already like that.
Lastly, you forgot that the City Mercs have a recruiter in NC. Across from the Neocronicle offices in the ConCenter.
edit -
RIGHT. I agree- right now people can switch factions. That is the argument that people against you can make- that people can switch factions now. So I am not sure why you are stating that same thing...
But they can't switch factions in the very beginning if they find out that the faction they joined before they even started playing the game isn't their thing.
So unless you want to give out 300k to noobs who're pissed about joining the loneliest faction, or perhaps the most hated faction because they didn't have a chance to find out about it beforehand...
JackScratch
27-01-04, 22:11
OK, you have the start of a pretty good idea here, I voted no because it is shamefully incomplete. I've been in the damn game a year and I can't find one damn reason to support the RP goals of mine or any other faction, and I have never changed factions. If you do, and if you can, yippe for you. I want a conciencous objectors corner. I want the right and ability to abstain from all the bullshit wars or create my own against whom ever I wish. And I want clan rights to do it. This should be a game by the players for the players. Factions are completely un necesarry. What would be better than this would to be to do away with the current faction system, and replace it with a clan system. Have your aliances be based on those of the clan, have your hostilities be based on those of the clans, and have all of those set by clan leadership.
Originally posted by Marx
It does work for some, but not for everyone - as I stated. Sure, a lil' trinket with a politicians name may 'sway the vote' for some, but for others it takes alot more than a keychain to make a decision...Once again, I never said what you're saying isn't correct. Players will join the faction with the nice people they've delt with. I say that not all players will do so - Giving a newb a slotted constructed knife and some medkits and some creds isnt quite the same as a politician giving an adult a keychain, by any stretch.
Adults wont stop living by choice if they dont get a keychain. Players MAY stop playing if they run out of creds and cant function in the game any more.
But you are correct. Not all will. Those that wouldn't show their gratitude for help in terms of loyalty to the faction of the helper are covered by your next sentence...
I also say that if the factions do their job, you'd still have a diverse population.This depends on the faction doing its job. That of course highlights the disparity in sizes in faction populations. Smaller factions will be at a huge disadvantage right from the beginning... and like I stated before, big factions will get bigger and smaller factions will get smaller.
Its like the college football recruit system. Even if a player in high school may not be the best suited for a big football college, all of them sure want to go to one, and would rather go to a powerhouse vs a non-contender, no matter WHAT the differences are betwee the two.
Getting killed by a Y-rep (CA made these, remember that) shows nothing of the status of the Twilight Guardian.Its funny, I would argue that same thing, and thats why your system is flawed. :)
So my question to you- absent a TG runner being there to tell the newb runner that CA made the Yreps.. an informed TG runner that is... how would the newb possibly know that CA is responsible for those reps?
And even if TG isnt responsible for them, the point STILL remains that the newb couldnt make it to TG to have a look around. CA did NOT put the Terror Leapers and Doom Reapers there... so that excuse only works for the yreps. So now the newb cant see TG, and knows that its hard to get into and out of TG. Doesnt say ANYTHING about TG, but now an opinion is made.
Getting helped by a person who's in the faction *does* show the partial status. It may not show that it's full of OP war junkies or PKARS, it may not show that it's full of rich people, what it might show is that it has nicer people or more concerned people.Now now Marx... above you state that people would NOT fall for an act of kindness. Now you state that the act of kindness is a good indicator of something about the faction....
And regardless of your conflicting stance on that, the fact still remains that an act of kindness from a single faction does NOT let a new runner know much of anything about that faction... only that runner doing the kind act.
Anyway, my idea is simple, I hate how you're complicating it within this argument. There is no enlightenment - The simple fact is people are joining factions before even starting to play the game, of which they have no idea how it involves itself in the world. Sure, they may read the blurb and think 'HAY, TANGANT MAYK GUNS' but lets look; on Pluto, Tangent was the heavy handed pro-city faction for the longest. They were doing the job of the City Admin - instead of doing the job of a simple weapons manufacturer. For this reason, alot of factions at the time killed any or all Tangents they came across. Then it had it's period of becoming a tradeskill faction again - then it went back to heavy handed.
A new player would not know this with the current system, would leave MC5 and be in a bad position. Sure (s)he may have a LE in, but it doesn't change the fact that at that current time, should they remove it, they'd probably get nailed.How do you solve this? You rely in game runners to give newbs a 100% accurate portrayal of how that faction functions?
Would the PP or NEXT runner tell the newb "we have few enemies, and the PKers resent that fact, so they often go out of their way to PK runners in our faction because they think we are hiding behind faction tags."????
I say let the runner read the description of what the faction represents and then let them decide for themselves how they want it to play it, rather than limiting them to the sometimes narrow already existing in game RP that clans use.
Lastly, you forgot that the City Mercs have a recruiter in NC. Across from the Neocronicle offices in the ConCenter. And you forgot the recruiter in the ConCenter cant give a newb an idea of what life in Tech Haven is like... or what Tech Haven even LOOKS like. :rolleyes:
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My last words on this:
The problem here is that you are trying to fix something that isnt really broken. You name three "problems".
First is that people dont know how that factions works on a server. I say the whole point of Neocron is not to conform, but to do what you want to and establish your own role. The game wont be any better or worse off with another BD pker. The promise of Neocron lies in what in CAN be, not in what it necessarily is. I dont understand why you are trying to encourage players do play their faction as it is already being played.
Second is that players dont have a reason to be loyal to a faction under the current system. First that wont change under your system... unless we consider initial propaganda spewed out by players as something that inspires loyalty. With or without your system, loyalty will always be based on the same three things- friendship, political standings, and epic items. CA has the only epic item worth factional loyalty (after the next patch) and most people stay a faction for the allied/enemy standings it has with other factions. Overall though usually loyalty is tied to friendship. If a newb already has friends in game odds are he will end up there. If not, he can make friends in any faction. So again, I dont see some huge increase in faction loyalty coming from what you suggest.
Third is that new runners are put in the line of fire. Considering runners start with a LE in and in the safety of an apartment inside of a city, I am not sure how that is the case. Absent someone telling them to remove the LE (which most people dont suggest any more) they will stay out of the line of fire for quite some time.
So in conclusion, I like the idea of people choosing a faction WITHOUT knowing how things are currently going in game. Thats the only way a runner can make a decision on the role THEY want to play, rather than what roles are out there that other runners think they should play.
Jack, for the first time ever we agree on something. Quite frankly I think factions are bullshit, I think clans should run the show. In a perfect game, there'd be no factions. But there will be.
:(
Giving a newb a slotted constructed knife and some medkits and some creds isnt quite the same as a politician giving an adult a keychain, by any stretch.
Adults wont stop living by choice if they dont get a keychain. Players MAY stop playing if they run out of creds and cant function in the game any more.
Truth.
But my question to you is this - how many 'power factions' will recruit new players? If this 'power faction' is run by one clan, as most are, I doubt they would (perhaps at first they would not later on). Most clans behind the said power factions are run solely for PvP, they want to 'hire' people they know can do the job right. They're probably not going to invest time and effort into a nonamed newb. However, smaller clans probably would. Smaller factions would have a better chance at getting these people for that reason.
But just remember, the decision is the players - People can do all the things they want to sway the decision, but in the end the noobs will, will be followed.
So my question to you- absent a TG runner being there to tell the newb runner that CA made the Yreps.. an informed TG runner that is... how would the newb possibly know that CA is responsible for those reps?
By reading the Neocronicles on the Terminals?
;)
The terminals really provide a vast wealth of knowledge.
And even if TG isnt responsible for them, the point STILL remains that the newb couldnt make it to TG to have a look around. CA did NOT put the Terror Leapers and Doom Reapers there... so that excuse only works for the yreps. So now the newb cant see TG, and knows that its hard to get into and out of TG. Doesnt say ANYTHING about TG, but now an opinion is made.
Good! So now the person will be still be unfactioned and have a despicable view of TG until (s)he finds out what happened and why - and realizes there was no connection. Perhaps (s)he might even join a pro-city faction because of their distaste for what happened to them.
Character development. It really makes the game more interesting.
Now now Marx... above you state that people would NOT fall for an act of kindness. Now you state that the act of kindness is a good indicator of something about the faction....
Allowing someone to be kind to you does not mean that their will becomes yours. You can see that there are kind people within a faction, perhaps even a certain clan... And there's the off chance that the person might join that faction to join that particular clan.
Once again, I reiterate the power of choice. If someone gave me a knife, medkit, and credits I'd be thankful. Would I rush off to be solely with them like a fanboy? Probably not.
How do you solve this? You rely in game runners to give newbs a 100% accurate portrayal of how that faction functions?
Would the PP or NEXT runner tell the newb "we have few enemies, and the PKers resent that fact, so they often go out of their way to PK runners in our faction because they think we are hiding behind faction tags."????
I say let the runner read the description of what the faction represents and then let them decide for themselves how they want it to play it, rather than limiting them to the sometimes narrow already existing in game RP that clans use.
Once again, you seem to think that the first thing a runner does when entering Neocron would be to join a faction. They are in a faction already. The only things they don't have are an apartment and full account status. Do they need either of those things? No, not until later in the game. Whens the first time you got over 500k? On my first character, I was well over xx/45. At that point I already had a good knowledge of what was going on within the server. At that point I hadn't even used my apartment.
I myself would encourage the players to play, and worry about factions when they can deal with the possible repricussions of joining a faction.
And you forgot the recruiter in the ConCenter cant give a newb an idea of what life in Tech Haven is like... or what Tech Haven even LOOKS like.
As a newb, you don't have to know what MB, TH, or TG look like. If they want to find out, they're free to go there. Sure, it may be a slow going if they're 0/2 - but guess what, these people can stay unfactioned as long as they want. So if their true goal is to reach those places, they can. However, it wouldn't be handed to them, seeing as it would sort of defeat that idea that those factions are for experienced players.
Last words
First off - how many brainport ideas are there because somethings broken? Most of them are ideas which would enhance gameplay. This certainly would.
First is that people dont know how that factions works on a server. I say the whole point of Neocron is not to conform, but to do what you want to and establish your own role. The game wont be any better or worse off with another BD pker. The promise of Neocron lies in what in CAN be, not in what it necessarily is. I dont understand why you are trying to encourage players do play their faction as it is already being played.
How many players do you know establish their own role (I know of ... three maybe)? People play to play, to enjoy. These people can't enjoy if their decision puts them in a bad situation - A bad situation which could have easily been avoided if they had a little heads up info.
Second is that players dont have a reason to be loyal to a faction under the current system. First that wont change under your system... unless we consider initial propaganda spewed out by players as something that inspires loyalty. With or without your system, loyalty will always be based on the same three things- friendship, political standings, and epic items. CA has the only epic item worth factional loyalty (after the next patch) and most people stay a faction for the allied/enemy standings it has with other factions. Overall though usually loyalty is tied to friendship. If a newb already has friends in game odds are he will end up there. If not, he can make friends in any faction. So again, I dont see some huge increase in faction loyalty coming from what you suggest.
The same players you like to hark back on which would be swayed by a knife and a medpak would surely look very favorably on a new apartment and a bank account. Sure, this idea in itself will not foster more faction loyalty. However, my idea also calls for an increase in work and power of the faction council. If the players actually have a say in faction business, then they'll feel much better about actually being a member of that faction.
Yes, you are correct, a new player who has friends will stick most likely with his/her friends. But not everyone gives their unadulterated loyalty to their employer or government. As such, not everyone will give their unadulterated loyaly to their clan or faction.
Third is that new runners are put in the line of fire. Considering runners start with a LE in and in the safety of an apartment inside of a city, I am not sure how that is the case. Absent someone telling them to remove the LE (which most people dont suggest any more) they will stay out of the line of fire for quite some time.
They are a member of their faction. Most are required to kill someone to prove their loyalty (Epic). As such, they are a militant member of their faction - who unless otherwise altered, is in the line of fire.
I wouldn't blame all of those people taking LE's out on other runners. I would also blame out of date guides - perhaps they have something they want to stick in that brainslot, perhaps they want to be able to be healed by one of their friends...
The minute that LE is out - Any person hostile to them can kill them. And with the current playerbase, I'd give the player a low chance of being able to walk away from an encounter with a hostile faction.
So in conclusion, I like the idea of people choosing a faction WITHOUT knowing how things are currently going in game. Thats the only way a runner can make a decision on the role THEY want to play, rather than what roles are out there that other runners think they should play.
And my argument is, THEY may want to play that role, but suprise suprise, they won't be able to play is as it's put forth.
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