View Full Version : pls nerf apu's ability to shoot through walls
Cryotchekk
24-01-04, 12:07
its really fucking stupid. if apu's can do that so should my tank.
Dade Murphey
24-01-04, 12:08
apu's can shoot thru walls?
Cryotchekk
24-01-04, 12:10
yes. i was just killed by a apu that i couldnt hit coz there was a wall in the way and they were kinda flying through it, so then hiding under the stairs in pp1 i got hit by 2 more holy lightening and i died. fun.
when ur a apu u can click 2 or 3 times on a target box and then will be hit no matter where they are
Mighty Max
24-01-04, 12:15
Because you cant see him, it does not mean he cant see you.
There might be a line of sight from his middle (where he shoots from) to an edge of you, while your middle (where you target from) is directly behind a wall and can target .. nothing.
Its like the little kid that holds his hands above his eyes and shouts. "you cant see me you cant see me!" when playing around.
gawd if you dont understand the way this game works dont comment on this thread.
if an apu clicks 3 or hold down the fire button while he has a lock on some one he can hit them 1-3 times after he has lost his lock becuase of the way this game calculates hits, havent you ever noticed that when you are fighting if you lock your ret fire and while the burst is in action if you move your ret off the person all of the burst blobs still hit? its the ingame mechanics i doubt this will ever be solved untill monks get a reticule too.
[F6]Knight
24-01-04, 12:30
it could be he could just target your arm or something
also some apu spells actually go trough walls
for example the energy bolt u start with goes trough walls (other 'bolt' type spells probably too)
like in the aggie cellars, u open a door, starts shooting an enemy and when the door closes your last bolt still hits trough the door
this can be clearly tested by using a 'ball' spell afterwards
bolt goes trough a door that closed after you started charging your bolt
ball impacts on the door if it closed after u started charging the ball
Mighty Max
24-01-04, 12:38
hit them 1-3 times after he has lost his lock
Thats not true. It hits only if the "click" happened at a time the enemy was still targeted. That the cast takes ages result that you might already behind a wall.
BUT if the spell would instantly cast (like weapons does) he would hit you before you were hidden.
So if you take it down to the moment of the Click, Weapon and PSIs do the same.
MjukisDjur
24-01-04, 13:19
well, you can. Tanks got AOE weapons and spys/pes got raygun weapon. Neither needs clear line of sight. So what is the fuss about?
Psyco Groupie
24-01-04, 13:58
rayguns do need LOS.
hes talking about lag and beams spells.
the sympton hes describing is because apus only have to see a pixel of you and so can still hit you until u've been hidden for a total of your ping times or round about, it is lag or rather latency.
DigestiveBiscui
24-01-04, 13:58
everyone knows its possible
u target them, they run behind the wall - yet the spell still hits
really is stupid imo
Mighty Max
24-01-04, 14:06
u target them, they run behind the wall
As i target they are NOT behind the wall. They are only on the way.
If i target, the spell hits like 3 secs later. You can run miles in 3 secs. An APU were not able to hit ANYONE if you have 3 secs after you recognized he will shoot now, you can slowly go and get some hide.
The problem _IS_ the fact that the damn APU spells have a ROF of 105/min and the animation is slower than that, so they can say click or hold the button on you long enough to get 6 bursts off as you run away, the first 3 hit you while in sight, the next 3 hit you behind the wall even though they cant see you, its the animation catching up with the ROF of the spell, one easy fix, make the spell like a lance or any normal ballistic weapon .....
Cryotchekk
24-01-04, 14:17
holy lightening, comes down from sky. so if u think about it like that stuff above you should stop. lets never mind about that but if you click 2-3 times on a target box the beam from the sky will hit the target. and this is what sucks. and also being a apu is just point and click. if u dont beleive me and make apu and find a target, click with any spell and then turn away, and the target will still take the hit
personally im all for giving monks a recticle and removing the non line of sight effect on there spells, few ideas on how to woek this but cant be bothered to post it atm:lol:
Originally posted by ezza
personally im all for giving monks a recticle and removing the non line of sight effect on there spells, few ideas on how to woek this but cant be bothered to post it atm:lol:
Fix faster animation........ problem solved and yea give us a freaking reticle so I can pwn your ass and then what? What is the next target? Running to fast? geeez:rolleyes:
Originally posted by t0tt3
Fix faster animation........ problem solved and yea give us a freaking reticle so I can pwn your ass and then what? What is the next target? Running to fast? geeez:rolleyes: i played a monk for ages and it was so fucking easy to kill people it was unbelivable, if you dont recognise a problem not my fault, and no i have no problem with you running fast
unlike tanks/Pes/spies monks only have to glimpse the target and hit, while other classes can have the recticle closed and still miss shots
I agree NERF the wall shooting stuff I know that turrets are always a joke till wall shooting is over with hrm I bet CAVEs would be harder also if stuff was changed slightly
Mighty Max
24-01-04, 15:32
i played a monk for ages and it was so fucking easy to kill people it was unbelivable
Yeah, as long as they dont see you before the first spell hits.
If you get caught approaching someone you are most likely dead or you have been buffed by a PPU before. In every setup you have at least one BIG weak spot.
That was in beta... but Monks cried because they failed when people hides next corner -----> they can shoot through walls..
Originally posted by Mighty Max
Yeah, as long as they dont see you before the first spell hits.
If you get caught approaching someone you are most likely dead or you have been buffed by a PPU before. In every setup you have at least one BIG weak spot. not even in cases like that did i have a problem
There is also the famous "fly" bug where the enemy see your playermodel up in the air, easy to target even if you have tons of obstacles to hide behind. It's REALLY gay at op wars. Terrible bug.
There is also a bug in the graphics engine, sometimes walls don't offer the protection you'd think they would. I've had this happen to me many times and actualy done it once myself. At certain locations if you aim your cursor just right, you can pull up a target box on someone who is on the other side of a wall. Once you get the target box, you're free to cast whatever. At Cajun a while ago I was defending against an attacking clan. While standing well within the entrance, around the corner, there should be no way to target me. Yet I was actively being debuffed and HL'd standing there behind the wall. Much later I finnaly saw how they did it, while looking down at the ramp going up to the entrance (inside op), I was able to target people just outside the op. The target box was tiny, but I managed to shock a few people.
its twitch bugs which are annoying, can get them from time to time here is some proof :p
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/gullegris-APU.JPG
Originally posted by Cryotchekk
its really fucking stupid. if apu's can do that so should my tank.
ever hear of lag?
gg
Shadow Dancer
24-01-04, 20:18
Yea apus should get los.
Fast los like all other weapons, not slow like the apu lance or ball spells.
They don't shoot through the wall they are probably using 3rd person to shoot through walls as they can get a target without being in direct view. Some spells have LOS rules, some don't.
And by all means nerf that, because it will also stop tanks and others being able to shoot easier in 3rd person as well as cripple the combat trikes.
Btw, speak of trying to get cover. Jaggeh used to crouch to hide in the bushes at gab mine. :lol:
ok give us a recticle and make all APU spels LOS ...but i wanna shoot my HL as fast as you can shoot your CS so like 305/sec or whatever....sound fair?
and you cant shoot through walls...you were prolly standing right infront of the APU on his screen
at an OP battle earlier i chased this tank all around outside the OP...and he just disapeared after i hit him like 5 or 6 times....well he wasnt really out side that was just server fuck up he was in the OP in a pretty safe spot...and he was running around cause he didnt think anyone could shoot him but he was getting hit
and monks arent UBer youve already nerfed outr energy damage and distance....now your trying to nerf us more?
Agreed. Getting killed in PP from an APU who is hitting me from clipping errors is the worst.
I dont want to take away their ability to shoot in third person but I think they should either be given a reticles or line of sight attacks only.
Originally posted by joran420
ok give us a recticle and make all APU spels LOS ...but i wanna shoot my HL as fast as you can shoot your CS so like 305/sec or whatever....sound fair?
and you cant shoot through walls...you were prolly standing right infront of the APU on his screen
at an OP battle earlier i chased this tank all around outside the OP...and he just disapeared after i hit him like 5 or 6 times....well he wasnt really out side that was just server fuck up he was in the OP in a pretty safe spot...and he was running around cause he didnt think anyone could shoot him but he was getting hit
and monks arent UBer youve already nerfed outr energy damage and distance....now your trying to nerf us more? lol CS doesnt do anywhere near the damage holy lightning does and any btw CS misses a lot of the time so how about you have our ROF and we hit with all our bursts:rolleyes:
JackScratch
24-01-04, 20:55
Yeah, lets make all the classes exactly the same, that'll make the game realy interesting. A monk can shoot through walls useing the multi modules, I'm pretty sure that isn't what we are talking about here. Besides, area of effect always goes through walls. I have played a monk since beta 4 and I have to tell you that I have noticed that if you target and shoot someone or something and they move before it goes off it still hits. So? I have also noticed that you dont get hits that you were not cycled for, in otherwords, you only get the hit if the spell was ready to go off when you could still target them. This is a result of the fact that Psi cast is the slowest single attack in the game, with the possible exception of large projectiles (rockets etc) I think it is completely fair for all valid Psi attacks to resolve even if the target is no longer in sight. Many are convinced by this occourance that psis can stack a bunck of attacks on you while you are in sight and they will resolve after you have taken cover. This is simply not true. Let the flameing commence. I know you are all certain that I am wrong and are about to tell me in no uncertain terms, as well as questioning my lineage and mental capacity, well go ahead.
No actualy you can shoot through walls, I've done it : p It's not lag, It's not 3rd person (i'm always first person). Sure often you can attribute it to those, but it is also possible the clippings are screwy in that area which lets a monk shoot through walls.
Let me repeat, I stood on a ramp looking down and saw target boxes appear in the ramp. The players targeted where on the other side of the entrance near the GR. I was able to shock each of them while stairin at the ramp floor. That happened a couple days ago, for the first time. It explains a lot of bizzare things that have been done to me in the past. I tried to blaim it on 3rd person, but that isn't enough. 3rd person relies on being able to see over a wall just enough to get a target box. I'f I'm ducking behind a wall on an elevated platform, it's hard for me to see how someone could just use 3rd person to get me.
JackScratch
24-01-04, 21:00
Ahhh, you mean that, yeah that happens from time to time, pretty rare though and always in the same places. I think we can safely attribute that to a grafix prob and cancel the Monk nerf bullshit, don't you think?
Shadow Dancer
24-01-04, 21:25
No jack, also is the lag problem. Or netcode, or whatever the hell you call it.
Where the apu sees someone in his sights still, but that person is around a wall or behind cover on THEIR screen. So due to non-los spells, we can hit them several times as long as we see them.
There's also the bug where people fly in the air. So if you are behind an op wall, but are "flying" up in the air to your enemy, get ready to be bombarded.
Happened to me at reagent once. Enemy was outside the op and we were inside. I peeked out and came back in.
Then about 8-9 HLs kept hitting me. My PPu friend was like "Wtf".
No apu was in site.
Anyways, that's totally seperate from the reticle issue.
Personally I feel apus should get LOS, because of the third person(and lag) abuse that can happen.
Btw Joran, HL is the fastest shooting weapon in the game.
Take the rof of burst weapons, and divide by the number of bullets/blobs/lasers that it shoots. And you'll see HL>all
lol shadow i though you were gonna flame me for my imput in this thread but i seem to have escaped :lol:
edit: well im now a days as anti monk as they come
Shadow Dancer
24-01-04, 21:28
Originally posted by ezza
lol shadow i though you were gonna flame me for my imput in this thread but i seem to have escaped :lol:
I rarely flame people.
Besides, even though I hate your monk stance technically you were right about H L.
JackScratch
24-01-04, 21:30
Sahdow, none of the things you listed are specificly monk related. I know what you are tanking about, many is the time I have died in my own barrel, even though I was no where near it, but these things can happen to, and be used against them by anyone, not just monks. And HL is the fastest damageing weapon in the game, hardly the fastest fireing, any pistol will get off that first shot faster than an HL, however over time, the HL will average much more damage.
Shadow Dancer
24-01-04, 21:32
Originally posted by JackScratch
Sahdow, none of the things you listed are specificly monk related. I know what you are tanking about, many is the time I have died in my own barrel, even though I was no where near it, but these things can happen to, and be used against them by anyone, not just monks.
True, but the problem escalates when it comes to apus due to their lack of LOS.
I just think that not having a reticle is a big enough perk as it is.
Honestly its mostly bugs or glitches, not the apu's fault. The same can be said about Drones. They lag so you can shoot them forever and never hit them, then suddenly they appear somewhere else. It's really aggrivating and makes drones a lot harder then they should be to fgight, but I don't blaim the drone.
Personally I feel apus should get LOS, because of the third person(and lag) abuse that can happen.
ok kiddies let's take a look at logic. Holy Lightning... ah yes, the wonders of lightning. Doesn't lightning come from the sky which is a vertical form of energy? Why yes it is billy. Lighting has yet to be seen striking from a horizontal angle, shock shock. So focusing at somebody will now require any beam spell.. (beam spells which hit vertically) to require a line of sight horizontially? That makes no sense. Something that is striking from the sky should require a line of sight. Lances should require a line of sight which they kinda do already. Lances (ie. like the sword used is jousts) is a horizontal time item. Thus when you cast, the attack is horizontal and does require a line of sight.
Let us recap. Beam spells = vertical attack (no line of sight is required) lances = horizontal attack (line of sight is required.)
now if every spell require a line of sight any LE user could easily block the line of sight spells thus making them useless and exploitable.
Do monks need some sort of targeting adjustment. Probably, but if monks were to get targeting recticles (which I doubt will happen) there should and probably would be a unnerfing of rezz times, and the rate of fire on para spells would be put back to original order. Now, would you honestly want to bring back para spam just so monks have targeting recticles?
you see, KK created a storyline to this game had ideas of what certains classes would have to offer and be capable of (I know, big shock... storyline and planning of the game). See monks can be powerful with ppu buffs. But they aren't that strong defense wise without buffs. See it's a sacrafice Strong Offense able to fight back quickly, but lack defense.
Monks have high intelligence, they are evolved as the storyline says. So to be honest a targeting recticle isn't that needed storyline wise for all spells, just a few (due to common sense of lighting from the sky being a vertical attack... and lances being horizontal attacks). Lag and clipping issues are the biggest problems of these complaints. Yet wait... a solution could be here soon. What's this? Beyond The Dome of York hopes to erase current issues with the game such as Fatal Run Times and clipping and so forth.
And as for the nay sayers about 'monk damage is to l33t'. I'm sorry to break the news to you folks, but when you think about it Lightning is a deadly thing, Energy can be deadly too, being on fire too, and poison also. So what... you want too see low damage monks who have little defense? That's balanced sure is... (note that was sarcasm)
as for 1st person to 3rd person. There's a serious height difference and honestly KK should fix that. When your in first person mode your honestly a midget. Your view doesn't match up to what it is in 3rd person. In 1st person you can't see over things you can in 3rd, which you should be able to. Honestly the height in first person needs to be raised a little because it's off balance. Possibly make it even so that 3rd and 1st person you see and have the same ability to hit things you should.
Pretty messed up when your taller that a small cliff in a cave and can't see over it in 1st person, but in 3rd person you can.
omg LETS MAKE MORE NERF -enter char here- THREATS !!!
Originally posted by Finl
omg LETS MAKE MORE NERF -enter char here- THREATS !!!
Monks are still overpowered... and that needs to be changed still..
apus are weak to battle vs another char with out shelders EVERY Char got weak point - u cant nerf the game everytime someone got killed by another char.
Originally posted by Finl
apus are weak to battle vs another char with out shelders EVERY Char got weak point - u cant nerf the game everytime someone got killed by another char. Thats untrue, I watched an APU beat some of the best tanks on Pluto this afternoon.
(The above statement is not calling for an APU 'nerf', it is stating a fact that APUs are NOT so weak that they cant fight another class solo).
Shadow Dancer
25-01-04, 01:28
Originally posted by Jest
Thats untrue, I watched an APU beat some of the best tanks on Pluto this afternoon.
Awww you punk. :lol:
Originally posted by Jest
(The above statement is not calling for an APU 'nerf', it is stating a fact that APUs are NOT so weak that they cant fight another class solo).
Well yea ur right. THeir only prob is the lack of a TL 3 heal.
But other than that they are more Tehn fine.
then that tank used the wrong weapon, with my tank i havent got problems to kill uno vs uno a apu. but with apu...oh, i have got soo many time kicked to ass becouse cs makes too much damage with 1 hit (oh, i dont mean that cs needed to nerf up:)
edit: every time i log to forum and check out it - there is atleast 1 NEW plz nerf threats, its just sad
APU's can shoot though walls
They use one of the energy bolt's and it goes though walls rival clans use it against us to destroy are turrets
Originally posted by INFERNO22
APU's can shoot though walls
They use one of the energy bolt's and it goes though walls rival clans use it against us to destroy are turrets
that's a game logic bug then.
Something that should be reported to KK. Ever think of that? Please... do e-mail KK about bugs/exploits with spells. They'll do something. If that's your defenition of shooting through walls... it's more like an exploit that should be fixed.
Originally posted by Finl
then that tank used the wrong weapon, with my tank i havent got problems to kill uno vs uno a apu. but with apu...oh, i have got soo many time kicked to ass becouse cs makes too much damage with 1 hit (oh, i dont mean that cs needed to nerf up:)
edit: every time i log to forum and check out it - there is atleast 1 NEW plz nerf threats, its just sad
it's getting ridiculous and if your a tank and can't beat an unbuffed apu you got problems. MONKS ARE INTENDED STORYLINE WISE TO BE POWERFUL BUT FRAIL. what are monks in game? powerful and frail, gg, read the manual. Read about the storyline, then you might realize this is how KK intended monks to be.
Dribble Joy
25-01-04, 03:26
Problem is tthat a monk sees a person, clicks, the person leaves their sight, and THEN the spell casts, but the cover doesn't stop the spell, it goes right through it. Which is annoying.
Also with a 'normal' weapon, if you can see a tiny part of them, just enough to select their target box, if you fire you will hit the cover, this doesn't happen with apus. Which is annoying.
But theres one spell where it will se thu an Op war fence or wall
Btw yes ive reported it :)
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Problem is tthat a monk sees a person, clicks, the person leaves their sight, and THEN the spell casts, but the cover doesn't stop the spell, it goes right through it. Which is annoying.
Also with a 'normal' weapon, if you can see a tiny part of them, just enough to select their target box, if you fire you will hit the cover, this doesn't happen with apus. Which is annoying.
it's annoying, but accurate as beam spells come from the sky. no cover for that. Keep in mind monks are highly intelligent and are of course by far highly advanced on PSI, they are played out with the ability to focus on there target and attack. They honestly meet up how they are played out to be in the storyline. Take in mind when not being ppued they are vunerable to attack with not so great defense.
Originally posted by INFERNO22
But theres one spell where it will se thu an Op war fence or wall
Btw yes ive reported it :)
hmm the only spell that I've seen that matches up with what your saying is barrels, tho any AOE can have the ability to blow up turrets outside ops through the walls. It's an exploit and should get fixed when KK is notified.
If the beam comes from the sky then the roof should protect the target which obviously doesnt happen. Beam spells should be able to hit only in the open areas but not inside the buildings/underground.
stalked monkey
25-01-04, 04:51
The lag thing really does only apply to APUs, if you look at some facts. I was in neofrag the other day messing around with some friends and they said that i was up a wall. I was standing right next to them on my screen, so I was like WTF??
He shot at me, while I was behind him and he was looking up at the wall. It kinda went right backwards and hit me.
HOWEVER!!!!
When I went out of his LOS on MY screen, his shots would not hit me!! They hit the wall. However, on his screen, I had not moved.
I had an APU try and hit me. When I was behind him, shots hit me. When I moved through a wall, shots hit me. When i went to the other friggin side of NF, he still could hit me.
<Notices problem>
Lag and LOS apply to other classes... but not APUs.
Originally posted by Babai
If the beam comes from the sky then the roof should protect the target which obviously doesnt happen. Beam spells should be able to hit only in the open areas but not inside the buildings/underground.
it should.... so should copbots firing at people. But if that were the case monks wouldn't be useable
TheGreatMilenko
25-01-04, 05:45
when people gonna learn KK doesnt care
Psycho Killa
25-01-04, 05:49
When they stop fixing the game all the time? Even if it isnt as fast as we would like.
JackScratch
25-01-04, 09:43
You know, no one ever complains about how annoying it is that a projectile weapon puts a slug in the target the instant the button is pushed, wow, that's realy anoying, it annoys me. What is being resolveed there is what gets hit when the left click happened, just like with most non Psi weapons. Sounds fair to me.
The issue of shooting through walls covers several different methods, Please learn these methods and specify when complaining about them.
Method 1 - Multis - There is an Area effect psi called a multi (lightning, bolt, etc) when cast these can not target mobs or runners, they may only target inanimate game surfices. If one targets a wall with something close to the opposite side of the wall, that item gets hit. Erg, you can, lagitamately shoot through walls, but then, all AOE weapons work in this manner.
Method 2 - Client server position discrepancies - It often happens that there is a disagreement between your client and the server as to the position of you, and your oponents. Sadly, the server always wins. A good example of this would be sitting in a completely enclosed room and getting hit, because the server has decided you are actualy standing out in the open outside the room. This is a lag oriented bug and effects all clases equaly.
Method 3 - Texture flaws - Ever been looking at a wall and had brackets apear representing something on the other side? Monks, because of the nature of their targeting can blast these things, runner and mob alike. Well, mostly, not all modules attack like this, sadly most of them do. This is an unfair use of a bug in the game. Fixing the bug is the most practical way to fix the problem. Changes could be made to the monk targeting system that might solve this problem, but hell, at that point why even bother haveing different classes. They are different for a reason, variety is the spice of life. Now there are a lot of people in these forums who are too lame to accept this concept, and I would like to politely direct them to go play CS.
Originally posted by ezza
lol CS doesnt do anywhere near the damage holy lightning does and any btw CS misses a lot of the time so how about you have our ROF and we hit with all our bursts:rolleyes:
Well, for the first few secs the apu outdamages the tank easily. But when our psipool has ran out and we need to wait for psiboosters to work its another question. Then actually the CS outdamages us....
never had that problem myself normally the tank would be dead long before i ran out of psi pool and if you time your boosters right you can last longer
Ive noticed the clipping problems that Carinth talked about (mostly behind trees) and they are always happening in the same places. In most cases when this have happened have I also noticed that I cant target them when I move a little beside the tree so I guess they might depend on some alignment problems in the map itself?
Beams and so on is made so they dont need LOS. As several people have pointed out, they come down from they sky over the target. Thats a real advantage for apus but its purely as designed. Thats not a major problem though as long as the game is synced. This game doesnt seem to sync so well so often you can see someone running forward when they actually have turned behind a wall and then becaus of not needing los we can still pound the target away.
Acccording to me, the best solution would be to fix all syncproblems. But if that cant be done, the best thing would be to make even beams need LOS. Just keep that reticule away. We cant take anywhere nearly as much beating as other people so I think giving us a reticule would kill us.
I must point out though that nerfing the beams range was just a way to make apus not to powerful. Now we are forced to use holy halos if we wanna hit people from afar and thats a good thing I guess. But keep in mind that all other classes still outrange us. If we should be needing LOS for beams, then we should get out old range back.
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