View Full Version : Spies seem pretty good to me...
TBH, ive never had the patience to level a spy fully, and currently I have a spy whos 96 dex 92 int who will be ready tro fight when hes 100 dex 97 int... god the pain...
Anyway, I still always work on each class to know what the worse i could be up against is, and if I was to ever build them. I thought up the sf, sa (or moto3 dist 3 before SA came out), moveon berserk 2 st booster 2 long ago, just as im sure other did.
I have a spy on test server, capped rifle that ive been playing with... and i dont see the complains. FL/Dis aims fast as hell, even from long ranges. I remeber plasma rifles missing like crazy but id say on average 3/4 plasma bolts hit, about the same with dis...
I am too lazy to get moveon in test, and the damn medic won even give me a st booster 2, says he will but he wont, so i use harden backbone 1. I use beast to get to 49 st... could do it with imps if i could get em though. Beast isnt bad though 25 ( thats a LOT of agil) and 5 st, lasts 10 mins, great drug.
FL is almost as powerful as CS, does 103 to a cyclops and CS does 108. I get 198 shots a minute, capped aiming with 178 points left in int, after 50 psi use, so i have enough to get a trade skill to base 100..... obveously that means up to 125 hack, could do 170 cst if i switched out implants used an allied factory self buff etc...
Im now certain wbs do AT LEAST 50% xray in thier shot, maybe like 60% xray 40% energy, as my spy took as much damage from wbs as my sheltered PE does...
without pp and moveon i easily got 330 health 105 energy 105 fire and plenty of ath agil... and I can drive a hover.... went for stealth 1, cause stealth 2's overkill.
So I dont see the problem... you have RoLH for pistols, CS, which does like 4% les damage then CS and iams faster and has a much longer range, vertually immune to xray, good energy and fire resits, good enough poison to escape poison beaming alibe with antidote drugs...
This isnt an "im so uber post" its just stuuff ANYONE can do... a spy CAN be good combat, you dont have to stealth if someone looks in your direction you can stand and fight.
If you use beast (really not a hastle at all, you can play for at least 30 mins before your dizzy from using too much... then u rest for 3 minutes) you can have inquis 1, heavy energy, capped damage 200/min FL or maybe totaly capped RoG..... whats the problem?
You dont need upgrades... you just gotta work to be a good combat spy, and you can fight for exteneded periods without stealthing, try it out.
nonamebrandeggs
23-01-04, 05:40
Drugs are expensive.
Originally posted by nonamebrandeggs
Drugs are expensive.
[snip].......capped aiming with 178 points left in int, after 50 psi use, so i have enough to get a trade skill to base 100
Are you drugging for Shelter?
I'm thinking about trying that one of these days......
Thing that gets me about Spies is, they seem to level slower than other classes once they hit the 70 INT/DEX level.....
I'm not sure if using Shelter would make it go any faster(I'm sure the higher STR armor would, tho), since drugs are involved......
I'm still kicking myself in the ass for deleting a high level Hacker Spy on Saturn to make room for an APU...
Oh and the additional 5 rounds that the Plasma Rifle packets(20 per clip) got, rocks....
drugs arent that expensive, Ive lost about 12 hover techs fighting the mercs with my hover tech pe... its been worth it, I kill way more of them then hovertechs I lose or times I die.... its worth the money and I could make the cost back easily by selling one rare i get from them.
If you buy your beast instead of build it, and use 70 beasts a week, 700 minutes of constant fighting thats like 150k.... dunno about you but I can make 150k really easily... butting inqis 1 to 43 st would make it too easy.
nop, I know i can but didnt. I would only do it for a fight i really needed it for. Im not aganst spies getting 25 psi, might happen in doy, or a lower tl shelter that offers less protection, but i dont think spies need a lower st energy armor or fire armor.
I agree on the leveling thing.... I just hit 96 dex and its torture... its sooo slow.
The only thing I'd ask for in spies is the ability to get a little more runspeed without drugging or throwing your resists and/or pc/rc down the shitter. Maybe a 5 TL drop in shelter, but neither of those is really a major issue. That's really it though, other than that there's nothing weak about spies.
Originally posted by VetteroX
butting inqis 1 to 43 st would make it too easy.
If the reqs would be lowered by 3, you could use one more implant slot for dex based imps like a spy should use em. It just sucks having to waste 3 out of 5 (brain slots + backbone) of implant slots just to get some decent fire resist. If you use beast its still 2 slots wasted to get to use the full inqui1 set.
Thats what sucks imo.
I mean what other class has to waste so many implant slots on a skill thats not their main skill just be be decent in a fight?
Cause if you setup a combat spy, you either lack the defense/offense or you have to drug up heavily.
/edit
About leveling up. Get a fh 1, basic resist booster 2 and drug to use a heavy poison belt. Get a nice heal, heal sanctum and lots of antipoison drugs. Then get yourself a RoG and hit the swampcaves. Bang. Capped in no time. I made a million dex xp in about 15 minutes. :)
Psycho Killa
23-01-04, 06:29
I waste 2 on my private eye and I have 20 less dex levels.
Wait for what doy brings also. 3 Strength may not be that hard to come by theres no telling what will be added.
Maybe something that makes you say fuck inqusition 1?
Originally posted by SorkZmok
If you use beast its still 2 slots wasted to get to use the full inqui1 set.
I only consider the 2 "gimp chips" wasted slots, the MOVEON is quite nice and I'd be using it anyways :p Kinda sucks that you're FORCED to use it though. Otherwise I agree, everyone else gets +subskill spines and brain imps, except perhaps PEs who mega-gimp/drug themselves to use what I've always considered spy weapons.
ive been doing swamp caves, have no problem living in there, i use a capped damage 167/min rolh (need to get an artifact one) and it still so boring.
Vet, nice sig... you owe me a Cron ;)
Trouble is that what you have now is a Spy that looks like a badly setup PE.
You have less in every resist/armour bar XRAY than a PE
You have lower runspeed than a PE
You can use the same weapons as a PE
Why not roll a PE?
Spies shouldn't need to lose all their unique characteristics just to survive as third rate PEs. They should be able to use the items that are only available to them as effectively as the other pure classes can.
Psycho Killa
23-01-04, 07:21
He uses first love and disruptor (show me a pe using these who doesnt crack out on tons of drugs) and has enough points to switch imps and construct as good as any other constructer. How is he a gimped pe?
Hes a better rifler and he can tradeskill with lesser defense sounds like a spy to me.
Get a silent hunter vet youll be pleased.
Originally posted by jernau
Trouble is that what you have now is a Spy that looks like a badly setup PE.
You have less in every resist/armour bar XRAY than a PE
You have lower runspeed than a PE
You can use the same weapons as a PE
Why not roll a PE?
Spies shouldn't need to lose all their unique characteristics just to survive as third rate PEs. They should be able to use the items that are only available to them as effectively as the other pure classes can.
if a class wants to be pvp effective, they can not hold onto a cst/research tradeskill... this is my theory
the traditude is inversly proportional to the pvpitude the greater the traditude, the lamer the pvpitude is, and vise versa
Dont fucking mix a trade char with a pvp char, it doesnt work-- a spy is only as strong as the intentions behind it, with pvp intentions, it is quite a good pvp character -- with trade intentions, its quite a shit pvp character.
show me a pe using these who doesnt crack out on tons of drugs
Which is exactly what Vet is doing on the spy, so why bother trying to make that point. I can get a PE to use a disruptor with 1 drug with the proper non MC5 imp setup [moto 3, SS, SF, Balance 3, exp reflex 4, PA 4] doesn't mean as a PE I should be FORCED into this setup in order to play one effectively. Heck even with the setup Vet uses he needs at least 2 drugs for both shelter and armour...
Tell me again why spies are fine?
Psycho Killa
23-01-04, 08:26
Because hopefuly sniper rifles and drones will be fixed. I didnt say they where fine I was agreeing with vet that there alot more viable then some people make them out to be in combat.
A) Sniper rifles need loving (Check test notes weither or not its enough is yet to be determined as it is it does about 70 damage to a buffed pe...)
B) Drones need to be fixed. My favorite and highest character in beta was a droner. I was a droner before the thierd tier of drones where even implemented. Half of the drones that exist now didnt exist then. I still managed to kill my share of people as drones can still now but take insane strategy and can only be done under limited circumstances. Anyways drone bugs need to be fixed (again check patch notes) Droners MAY be getting a cool remove from local helmet if you seen callashs post. There also appears to be a couple drone goodies in the works.
Other then that I do honestly think spies are fine they have come along way since the beggining of retail.
Originally posted by nonamebrandeggs
Drugs are expensive.
true, but I have found of all the classes the spy is the by far the easiest to make money and have the lowest bills to pay vs any other character.
They are also one of the easiest to solo from newbie level (PE would be second but later on a stronger combat class).
if a class wants to be pvp effective, they can not hold onto a cst/research tradeskill... this is my theory
That is correct.
To be honest I believe spies require more then just that, however I thank you for your rational and your opinion.
Originally posted by Divide
if a class wants to be pvp effective, they can not hold onto a cst/research tradeskill... this is my theory
the traditude is inversly proportional to the pvpitude the greater the traditude, the lamer the pvpitude is, and vise versa
Dont fucking mix a trade char with a pvp char, it doesnt work-- a spy is only as strong as the intentions behind it, with pvp intentions, it is quite a good pvp character -- with trade intentions, its quite a shit pvp character.
Unfortuanetly the game does not consider the pure tradeskiller to be a valid option. It doesn't like any support character being pure. We all have to bastardize ourselves to fit into what Neocron allows.
You are right that tradeskillers impair combat, but many don't know or don't care. This is especialy prevalant with monks. PPU Tradeskillers often think they are the norm, with no idea how much faster and better they could be if they ditched their tradeskills. It's really incredible how much a ppu improves with even a small move toward pure combat. I was recently a hacker ppu, to give me something to do. I died much more often then I usualy do and was trying to figure out why. My hack was only at 90 skill, that left me with 189 psu. You would think that would be perfectly fine. Try loming to pure psu, and you'll be amazed. With my psu back up to 207 I'm once again capable of my old tricks.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
Which is exactly what Vet is doing on the spy, so why bother trying to make that point. I can get a PE to use a disruptor with 1 drug with the proper non MC5 imp setup [moto 3, SS, SF, Balance 3, exp reflex 4, PA 4] doesn't mean as a PE I should be FORCED into this setup in order to play one effectively. Heck even with the setup Vet uses he needs at least 2 drugs for both shelter and armour...
Tell me again why spies are fine?
But your PE would be quite weak then and had shit dmg/rof on his disruptor. You couldnt even cap dmg.
And i know many many PEs who also use lots of drugs. And imo a spy benefits much more from drug use than a PE ever could.
Conclusion: If you dont like drugs, play a spy the way hes meant to be and snipe. If you like drugs, theres way more you can do.
god.. three more posts and this will turn into a nerf the ppu thread. o_O We are talking about spies.
Actually you could cap as a combat class then lom to pure tradeskiller.
What would be nice is if trade skills played a part in ops. Some examples.
CST - For laying turrets, with the more CST the faster it activates.
BARTER - Use the ops to sell your clans stuff, accessible only to barters (or some kind of bonus)
RES - Increase the overall stats one time of turrets (So CST first, then RES person).
QuantumDelta
23-01-04, 09:33
Spies have the potential if designed properly to be more PvP Effective in every way, than the PE, Providing you don't mind using a couple of drugs (litterally one or two).
edit;
except hlt...
Originally posted by Ehyuko
I can get a PE to use a disruptor with 1 drug with the proper non MC5 imp setup [moto 3, SS, SF, Balance 3, exp reflex 4, PA 4]
Um... show me a PE with 84 int to use SS.
Try SRI instead. and the resists/rc on that setup is so horrible that it isn't even funny. I know, because I use that setup, only I have a SA and i still don't cap SH and disruptor damage without rc3, and even with rc3 I don't cap aiming on either. My resists are WORSE than a spy's, and trust me I know how to setup a PE's con. The only difference would be that I can run a little faster, and I can't stealth 3. When next patch comes, I'm going to have to make even more sacrifices in terms of con, and rc, to keep using SH without drugs and stealth 2 at the same time.
And even my setup, I have to use a whiteflash for disruptor/FL, and I need it for even a pain easer because of the run speed.
And Vet only needs dest forte to use Shelter, he doesn't _need_ beast, but he's too lazy to get a moveon.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
He uses first love and disruptor (show me a pe using these who doesnt crack out on tons of drugs) and has enough points to switch imps and construct as good as any other constructer. How is he a gimped pe?
PK is saying that a PE would need tons of drugs if she could self-poke, construct and rifle with FL/Dis without being severely gimped.
Btw QD, I'm really enjoying a PE with more than 450 hp self buffed.
QuantumDelta
23-01-04, 14:06
Shh ;)
Don't discourage spies gotta have'em before KK will really get around to fixin'em :p
Because oppinions seem to be somewhat needed (Though Callash and Thanatos have been working much more actively recently and are doing an ok job).
I still think Spies on the whole are underrated though...
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
He uses first love and disruptor (show me a pe using these who doesnt crack out on tons of drugs) and has enough points to switch imps and construct as good as any other constructer. How is he a gimped pe?
Hes a better rifler and he can tradeskill with lesser defense sounds like a spy to me.
Get a silent hunter vet youll be pleased.
If he has 49 STR he has to drug to use any of those and his stats on them will suck, even more so if he has a tradeskill.
Shadow Dancer
23-01-04, 17:55
drugs != viability
IMO
Oh btw, I don't have the patience to level up a spy either. GOD, it's painful. Low damage output on mobs IMO. PE has low damage output too, but he caps 20x faster. :p
as ive said in the past since im a spy that a spies setup has to be unbaliveably accurate ecspecially in con to be effective. But in pvp/dueling situations they still need a lot of tweaking and upgrading a bit *hint hint* :p
But your PE would be quite weak then and had shit dmg/rof on his disruptor. You couldnt even cap dmg.
My bad for using an SS instead of a SRI, could also have used a Vehicle 3 but that would reduce his runspeed.
Erm... what results do you think a spy would get from a disruptor trading 3 imps for pure str bonuses and using drugs again just to raise stats. With 190 RC and 190 weapon lore you can't cap a disruptor... you need 220 RC for that. But who cares right? A RoG/PE/RoLH/Lib have almost the same in damage output after you take into consideration the clipping plane, and players teleporting around due to the lack of position updates. What do I gain using a disruptor? About 3 seconds of surprise before someone comes runing directly at me shooting.
So again... why should you bother trying to make a spy into a PE when you can just roll a PE?
My point is, when you setup like how people think spies should ONLY be setup, you trade everything that makes a spy into a spy away to achieve almost the same as a PE [as far as a combat role]. I do not consider that fair or balanced... Much like removing all STR based weapons over TL 40 and saying tanks are balanced because they can imp up for dex weapons, sure you CAN be effective doing this, but it negates the whole idea of having a tank [beyond armour].
Originally posted by Ehyuko
My point is, when you setup like how people think spies should ONLY be setup, you trade everything that makes a spy into a spy away to achieve almost the same as a PE [as far as a combat role]. I do not consider that fair or balanced...
And i'll say it again. 197 r-c. 100 agl 90 atl. 350 hlt. Fire, enr and xray all above 100. Stealth 2. 3 drugs on my own, 2 if i got a ppu or pe at my side.
I get a RoF of about 200 on my disruptor and thats damn nice already. I also cap dmg and aiming.
And its not a pure NF duel crap spy setup, it works. I just had to learn how tu use drugs the right way...
SorkZmok if the only type of monk was a ppu or the only kind of tank was a melee tank or pistols were PE only and rifles spy only, I COULD seethat Neocron forced people to use a specific set of implants and weapons in order to be effective.
But it's not.
As it is EVERY class besides a spy can be played in multiple ways and be effective in combat, I find it both hypocritical and malicious of people to say use this spy setup, it's the best, it's the only way you can be useful to your clan or team.
Why should spies be forced to play this way?
I perfer to play without drugs as I don't like using the exploits that allow people to totally avoid their side effects. The difference between drugging and trying to be a PE is so VASTLY different then say the choice of rifles or pistols on PEs or melee and heavy on a tank.
Sure you can set yourself up that way and so could I, but should EVERY spy have to setup that way to be useful? I hear people bitching about cookie-cutter setups, and yet this is EXACTLY what the community is trying to force a spy to be, each one identical to the other, no deviation allowed or you suck.
Personally I find this wrong to single out one class for this while every other has some variety. The simple fact is PE's can drug up and imp up for ressurection also, should it mean everyone of them should be forced into that role to be considered ok?
Same thing 3 drugs on a PE, I've just done this fast, I'm sure many others whom are experienced in setting up a Pe could come up with better:
193 RC, Stealth 1, 198 agil, 86 ath, over 100 in every resist except poison where he gets a respectable number, 350 health, disruptor using PE, using 3 drugs.
Without those drugs his ath and agil are lower, his health closer to 400 and he can only use a redeemer [hardly the best weapon, but just to show my point], this is WITHOUT drugs at all, the only difference is a lower runspeed. He doesn't need to drug to shelter, and if he was pistols he'd EASILY be able to use a slasher with 2 drugs just to increase his dex.
PE's can make ALMOST EXACTLY the same levels as far as RC and PC a spy can AND can use the same weapons only needing to take drugs to reach the dex requirements, however there are MANY other excellent weapons that are easily within their reach without drugging.
So, you can make a drugless PE who must use a lower TL weapon which is almost exactly the same as a spy who drugs up, or you can make a drugging PE who can use the same weapons as a spy to almost the same effectiveness. But of course the dugging/imped up spy is nowhere near the toughness of the PE undrugged they just have aproximately [8 RC worth] of difference in firepower.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
193 RC, Stealth 1, 198 agil, 86 ath, over 100 in every resist except poison where he gets a respectable number, 350 health, disruptor using PE, using 3 drugs.
Holy hell, 198 agil? That doesn't seem possible without whiteflash, redflash, beast, and rifle kami. 350 health sucks, by the way. So does 3 drugs.
Spies are not meant for combat, but can be used in combat effectively, they can and do die faster than most other classes except the apu sub class.
I view spies as riflers, droners and trade skillers, not as pistolers.
They stay back and inflict damage. they come under attack, you either stay and fight or stealth away.
Nullifidian
23-01-04, 22:11
I have a spy whos 96 dex 92 int who will be ready tro fight when hes 100 dex 97 int... god the pain...
Am I the only person that think there is something seriously fucking wrong with this statement?
I think you mindless folk have been suckered for so long you don't remember a time when not only did you not have to have 100 fucking Dex just to fight, you could fight when you were only half way to the cap and had no friggin slots on your gun. Which I might add was NOT a rare because there were no fucking rares.
It really has gotten to the point where you cannot do ANYTHING even remotely related to PvP until you cap out your character completely. How sad is that? How sad is that?
That's every MMORPG, unless you fight in newbie-only zones...
KramerTheWeird
23-01-04, 22:17
I agree, all pvp in mmo's is for bored capped characters.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Am I the only person that think there is something seriously fucking wrong with this statement?
I think you mindless folk have been suckered for so long you don't remember a time when not only did you not have to have 100 fucking Dex just to fight, you could fight when you were only half way to the cap and had no friggin slots on your gun. Which I might add was NOT a rare because there were no fucking rares.
It really has gotten to the point where you cannot do ANYTHING even remotely related to PvP until you cap out your character completely. How sad is that? How sad is that? [/B]
ahem, excuse me if i agree with vet that a class that is designed to tradeskill will take some extra leveling to be pvp-viable.
I play a spy as my main char, have since december, for the longest time I was a joke-- "the spy who wants to be a tank" they said... now with all of the new armors, implants, tools, etc etc, I have achieved my goal-- to go toe to toe with anyone on the server. Its not just now that I have reached this level, it came when the REAL spy pa came. Though before then, I was known to use the ARS, and even before that, it was the CAPA, and I was quite happy with what I had... The simple fact of the matter is this:
Spies are _not_ intended to be pvp big-hitters, so it will take you some extra time leveling, some extra time designing your setup, and a lot of mental anguish from all of the dogtags you leave over your particular server.
As far as I can see, the only change that needs to be made to anything reguarding spies is this:
Inq 1 armor needs to be lowered by a STR req of 3
Shelter needs to be 20psi
This will ultimately balance the class.
But aside from this 1 need, spies are the only class (in my opinion) that is close to balanced.
PE's need a small (such as -5 per piece of armor that pe's can wear) nerf in defence
Tanks (and every other class tbh) need more bang for their buck with natural resists, and beyond the base skill cap of 114, and softcap of resists with armor and natural added together.
Tanks could also benefit very very much from a shelter belt, similar to a deflector belt. the Shelter % should be at about 250-300%dmg
APU's need line of sight spells
Better Medikits
PPU's need a loss of the parashock spell
also need line of sight spells
Originally posted by Divide
As far as I can see, the only change that needs to be made to anything reguarding spies is this:
Inq 1 armor needs to be lowered by a STR req of 3
Shelter needs to be 20psi
This will ultimately balance the class.
But aside from this 1 need, spies are the only class (in my opinion) that is close to balanced.
PE's need a small (such as -5 per piece of armor that pe's can wear) nerf in defence
Tanks (and every other class tbh) need more bang for their buck with natural resists, and beyond the base skill cap of 114, and softcap of resists with armor and natural added together.
Tanks could also benefit very very much from a shelter belt, similar to a deflector belt. the Shelter % should be at about 250-300%dmg
APU's need line of sight spells
Better Medikits
PPU's need a loss of the parashock spell
also need line of sight spells
Giving spies shelter? Then what's the point of being a PE? reducing PE armor? Making inq1 easier to use? So you're making Spys into PEs, except they do more damage and can tradeskill. Removing hte 114 natural resist cap will only benefit tanks. So PEs are even more screwd. Great ideas... :rolleyes:
Wait, so giving tanks shelter too? PEs barely get over 300% on their shelter, so giving it to a tank for free is just lame.
They're balanced now.
Originally posted by Varaem
Giving spies shelter? Then what's the point of being a PE? reducing PE armor? Making inq1 easier to use? So you're making Spys into PEs, except they do more damage and can tradeskill. Removing hte 114 natural resist cap will only benefit tanks. So PEs are even more screwd. Great ideas... :rolleyes:
Wait, so giving tanks shelter too? PEs barely get over 300% on their shelter, so giving it to a tank for free is just lame.
They're balanced now.
Oh Im sorry, I didnt mean to make a character that takes more than 2 times as long to level as another *Gasp* equal to or equivalent to them OH NO
There is more Dex exp total for a spy than there is in ALL of the subskills for a pe... excuse me for thinking a spy should at least be on par with a class that has over 200million less total exp to gain.
edit: Am I the only one who thinks that tanks need a boost in resists/etc? I dont really think its fair for a class to be born and bred as a fighter only to have equal resists to a pe, and without shelter.
now that I think about it -- Varaem do you even play this fucking game? Because you obviously dont have a fucking clue.
That's the same argument for hybrid monks before the nerfs and the int upgrade. They were the hardest class to level, but in the end became the most powerful by far.
Originally posted by Varaem
That's the same argument for hybrid monks before the nerfs and the int upgrade. They were the hardest class to level, but in the end became the most powerful by far.
hybrids are done for, get off the dead monk please. Lets move on to a class that hasnt been nerfed to oblivion more than 2 times. kthxbye
edit: oh, and hybrids were by far the easiest to level, it just took more time because the int gain was fucking pathetic.
exactly, takes more time. thats the point. And hybrids aren't done for, or don't you read the testserver patch notes and the constant ranting on the normal forums by test server players?
I was using it as an example, so my argument still remains. Two capped classes should be about equal, but if one can tradeskill and pvp while the other can't, it's not fair. I agree the exp gain is a little messed right now though, so maybe KK should make PEs harder to level instead of making them suck and having like 1/4 of the people reroll into spies.
Psycho Killa
23-01-04, 22:48
I dont think leveling time should justify power in this game or ppus should be even more powerful then they are now :rolleyes:
I agree with upping tanks resists.
I do not agree with lowering shelter.
Lowering inq may be acceptable but lets wait to see what goodies come with doy maybe spies will get something extra cool that will make inqusition not even matter.
KramerTheWeird
23-01-04, 22:54
Divide, I think you're the one who doesn't play this game. A spy with shelter and inq 1 will be damn near close to a PE, as I've and other players have tested. They can also get more runspeed and use all weapons, capped, without gimping. How would this make spies balanced? No one would be a PE then. PE's can level easier, big deal? All other classes level longer than a PE, and they recieve much more benefits as a result. PE's just get a little bit of everything, making us versatile, but useless for any specialized function in comparison to other classes.
Comparing a PE standalone to another class is insulting. Seeing how ppu's dominate this world, a PE sheltered by a ppu compared to a tank is nothing. Do you honestly want a PE over a tank in an op fight? Or even a spy, who can at least hack, and at the same time use every dex weapon availble. A PE by itself may be stronger than some classes by theirselves, but there are classes designed for support and some designed to be alone, such as the PE. You trying to make them all at the same par as a PE by theirselves will just make the PE totally obsolete.
My mistake I meant 98 not 198, slip of the finger. ^^
Had to lower the agility to 98 from 100 for the right amount of TC. But as you can see Spies and Pe's are ALREADY almost identical, spies get a FEW points more in their main combat skill, PE's get a far greater selection of armour and shelter to boot. It's quite possible to make a tank into a stealther, but as I've repeated many times, players should not be forced to play in only ONE way in order to be effective, as some people believe spies should be or at least have the option of playing this way or not being equally useful in combat in their own way.
See I agree with most people here, I do not just want spies to be weaker PE's nor think nerfing everything under the sun is an acceptable solution. While there ARE some blatently over powered abilities and classes which I feel should be nerfed or adjusted accordingly, I also feel that spies are on the lower end of effectiveness of all the character types and thus a greater diversity in both armour weapons and items should be available to both them and ANYONE who can meet the requirements for it, including PEs, tanks and Psis as well as altering the bonuses raw stats [str, dex, int, psi, con] give so they all have a similar tradeskill/combat/misc. bonus.
Spies recieve the least bonus from their stats as far as both combat and misc skills such as health, transport and psi pool, they have the worst selection of armour without trying to become a PE, they have SERIOUS problems fighting at range as the engine has problems with movement and distance and they have the highest TL weapons and items... but these are adjusted to be either the same or only slightly better then the TL 100 weapons most other classes are limited to using, this also requires them to have a larger amount of skill investment to achieve the same abilities as other classes get with lower TL weapons.
Now despite all this some players CAN create combat worthy spies, however it is despite these problems not due to any specific advantage that solely spies can use. Take the monk for an example, with their high int and the ppu buffs available they can match a spy as any type of tradeskiller [except repair/recycle], however people making their characters into PURE pvpers change them beyond the same abilites of what a spy can achieve if they go the same route.
So yes spies can be great tradeskillers - but so can monks, I am NOT suggesting that monk XP gain is fair, nor that monks require nerfing in the tradeskilling area, simply pointing out they have the same potential for tradeskilling as a spy, yet no one rushes to claim monks need nerfing because they have the CHOICE of being a tradeskiller.
I in no way want to change this to a nerf the monk thread, simply pointing out that many of the agruements for spies being weaker across the board are justified by pointless agruements such as these, which should not be truely taken into consideration as far as combat balancing issues.
Nicely stated, Ehyuko, except spies are better at CSTing/Researching/Hacking than monks for a few reasons. CST and Research is also based on dex, something monks are severely lacking compared to the other 3 classes. Hacking is made a lot easier with RCL, another spy specialty. So Monks could get the same CST, or even better with self buffs, but will be overall worse.
While dex is in part a factor in constuction a construct boost 3 can almost identicaly give the same bonus as having 100 dex can, this translates to ~ 66% of the bonus spies recieve [+0.3xdex], the remaining 35 Dex points a monk natually gets equals the same as to a spy's 100 dex when a construct 3 is factored in.
Similarly any level 3 buff can be used to give monks the improved abilities spies get from their natural stats, so comparing spies and monks, a ppu can make an extremely good tradeskiller equal to a spy. ^^
Edit: See, this is what I'd consider balanced, if you spec for it, you can natually equal another class, I wouldn't have any problems with both tanks and Pe's each having their own tradeskill they can specialize in, so long as at least one other class can do a similar thing if they choose and they have some disadvantage at another tradeskill to make up for their bonuses.
I would not like to see everyone capable of doing anything, I would love to see all classes specializing in their own areas and pursuits, this is in both the tradeskill way and in combat. This is why I dislike having certain classes totally overpowering while others are left behind, every class and character type should be able to specialize to be combat worthy in their own way. I find the way spies have been implemented is lacking compared to others and that their specific advantage [range] is nullified by the limits of the game engine/networking code making this not a true advantage at all.
Edit again: Actually tanks can ALREADY specialise in repair/recycle due to the lack of dex requirements they have and their dex cap, I often see tanks advertising their repair skills, and personally I have no problems with this.
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Divide, I think you're the one who doesn't play this game. A spy with shelter and inq 1 will be damn near close to a PE, as I've and other players have tested. They can also get more runspeed and use all weapons, capped, without gimping. How would this make spies balanced? No one would be a PE then. PE's can level easier, big deal? All other classes level longer than a PE, and they recieve much more benefits as a result. PE's just get a little bit of everything, making us versatile, but useless for any specialized function in comparison to other classes.
Comparing a PE standalone to another class is insulting. Seeing how ppu's dominate this world, a PE sheltered by a ppu compared to a tank is nothing. Do you honestly want a PE over a tank in an op fight? Or even a spy, who can at least hack, and at the same time use every dex weapon availble. A PE by itself may be stronger than some classes by theirselves, but there are classes designed for support and some designed to be alone, such as the PE. You trying to make them all at the same par as a PE by theirselves will just make the PE totally obsolete.
not only do I play, the spy has been my main class since dec 2002. go to saturn and ask about me, Im sure you will hear some interesting stories. As one of the only people (on saturn) that has kept a spy as a combat spy and not given up and lommed to something like cst or res, I feel that my opinion is not only valid, but also more thought out than any of the other ranters here who think the spy is too weak, some of which probably havent even played a spy.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
As it is EVERY class besides a spy can be played in multiple ways and be effective in combat, I find it both hypocritical and malicious of people to say use this spy setup, it's the best, it's the only way you can be useful to your clan or team.
193 RC, Stealth 1, 198 agil, 86 ath, over 100 in every resist except poison where he gets a respectable number, 350 health, disruptor using PE, using 3 drugs.
You still can setup a spy without drugs. You can get him to 210 r-c, still have nice runspeed and stealth 2. You will just drop dead the second youre enemy even looks bad at you. But the dmg you can deal from distance is awesome.
So even a spy can be played in multiple ways.
And about that PE setup...post it. What imps, what drugs and whats the con setup. Please.
In my opinion Spies and Monks are two sides of the same spectrum. We're both weak physicly and try to avoid putting ourselves in danger. Both of us use some mechanism as a crutch to allow us to compete. We're both super inteligent and capable of tradeskilling. We differ in what mechanism we use. Spies use Tech while Monks use Psi. At the moment Tech is severely lacking in capability. I believe Spies when using their gadgets should be just as good as Monks are. That could mean reducing monks and boosting spies to make them equal, but we realy should be on the same level. I do not believe the gadgets should just be a simple coppy of every psi spell, there should be variation and each side should have something unique. I would really be depressed to see spies as clones of monks. For example rather then just have Psi Shelter and Tech Shelter, Psi shelter would be more heavily reistant against energy, Tech Shelter would be more heavily resistant against a different dmg type, not sure which. Ofcourse it wouldn't be Tech Shelter, it'd be seomthing like Personal ForceField.
What really excites me about this idea is the potential to create a new sublcass from spies, Engineers. They'd be the spy equivalant of a ppu monk : ) You could even have them be involved in deploying devices, like Turrets could be their domain. The real bonus here is that nolonger are ppu's absolutely required. You can do perfectly fine with an Engineer. Having two sub classes to fufill the job would make each's life easier and also improve some of the current problems. It's silly for every class to be dependant on one class. Give them a alternate choice and the game becomes more balanced.
Going with this I also had the idea that Tech and Psi should be detrimental to each other. The more you specialize in Tech the less you're able to use Psi. This means hybrids will be possible, a psi inclined spy or a tech inclined monk. They will of course not be as good in their classes primary ability, but they get access to some of the other side's toys. If any of you have played Arcanum, it summs this up. Magic and Tech exist, but the presence of one impairs the other. Elves are pure magic users, Dwarves are pure tech users. Humans can go either way.
Originally posted by Divide
not only do I play, the spy has been my main class since dec 2002. go to saturn and ask about me, Im sure you will hear some interesting stories. As one of the only people (on saturn) that has kept a spy as a combat spy and not given up and lommed to something like cst or res, I feel that my opinion is not only valid, but also more thought out than any of the other ranters here who think the spy is too weak, some of which probably havent even played a spy.
Amen to that. From what i read on these forums, divide is one of few who really knows about (combat) spies.
But also i think dropping inqui reqs and shelter reqs would be too much for the spy. A spy simply isnt meant to be a close combat fighter. Inqui1 reqs dropped by 3 would be nice and the way i would do it. On the other hand, deso forte is a crap drug so i would love shelter at tl 20 and inqui1 still at 49-. Cause i think i would be using beast anyway. ;)
KramerTheWeird
23-01-04, 23:54
Divide, so from your experience, and admitting the fact spies are not a weak class, why don't you think giving them extra bonuses such as shelter and inq will be a bit excessive?
In response to SorkZmok:
Edit: This setup is not exactly like the one I've posted earlier as I cannot remember how I set it up, because I was merely trying to demonstrate it cna be done, I'm certain with some adjustments you can come up with the EXACT numbers I posted earlier, however this setup ALSO meets the requirments SorkZmok posted earlier that he'd like to see.
SF, SA, Distance cpu 3, Exp bal 3
RC eye 3, Filter heart 2, normal [not the crahn epic] psi gauntlet, Exp reflex booster 4.
Gamma head, arm, chest, exp leg, foot
Inq 1 helm and pants, shelter boots, distance battle suit 4, med energy belt.
Using Rifle combat booster 1, basic resist 2, spy 1
Drugs: Whiteflash, redflash, sumderbait
Note: Dextrol forte can be used to enable holy shelter boots, considerably improving resists. Possible other coice of boots and adjustment or armour would most likely improve this setup however as a simple demonstration I do not feel the need to bother.
Note2: While I do not consider this a highly effective PE for my playstyle, I have made this setup to PROVE it can be done. Personally I never use drugs [except the anti ones] in combat because I find them unreliable.
Final stats:
Dex: 116
RC: 190 +55
TC: 89 + 22
Agil: 98 +67
Str: 57
force: 116 +15
Transport: 90
Psi: 31
ppu: 80
mental steadiness: 31 -8
ppw: 18
Con: 60
Ath 74 +43
body health: 88+5
end: 16+16
fire: 54
energy : 35
xray: 63 + 10
poison: 39 +30
Int: 71+11
Psi use : 45
Weapon lore : 165 + 48
Resists:
Force 213
Pierce 191
Fire: 102
Energy: 115
xray: 105
Poison 35
Shelter and deflector are available
Health: 349
Mana: 66
I also disagree with Divide's ideas.
I think spies need to be boosted, but turning them into mini PEs just isn't the answer. All classes should be PvP viable in their own unique way, both in OP wars and in 1 v 1 combat. I think that's pretty much done, except spies and PEs need to be separated a little more.
Here's what I think should be done:
1. Easier to cap top weapons.
2. Sniper Rifles should ignore deflectors
3. Major drone boost (hopefully the next patch will cover this)
4. Three levels of anti-stealth goggles, restricted to spy class only,
Level 1 = same reqs as Stealth 1, sees past stealth 1
Level 2 = same reqs as Stealth 2, sees past stealth 1+2
Level 3 = same reqs as Stealth 3, sees past stealth 1, 2+3
When using these you can see and shoot stealthers (depending on what level of goggles you are using), but you can ONLY see stealthers. All other people will appear as if stealthed. This will also give some reason to use the obliterator.
5. Either a Medical Skill or Armor Skill in INT. Medical skill increases strength of medkits, and Armor skill increases resists given by certain armors (perhaps spy-only). Of course, medkits would have to be made unusable while stealthed.
Number 5 probably needs some major twaking, but people have always asked for spies to become the technological equivalent of monks, and that would be one way of doing that.
Sorry but in my opinion, spies are not a weak class due to the fact that they have range over all other classes (other than a rifle PE). Spies shouldnt need to drug for shelter or inq armor because if a rifle spy is used properly, they should be out of range of any other class while attacking.
The only scenario in which a spy would need shelter/inq armor would be if they were a pistol spy and attacking at close range.
My spy is a rifle spy that is almost capped and ive never had to drug up in a battle. I can easily take down a capped tank at long range before he can even get close enough to shoot me.
So if you level a spy properly, you should not have to drug...
But thats just my opinion...
~Deo
Sniper rifles should ignore deflectors ? that would mean u can kill any1 instant if u have 2 snipers? Dont agree there.
I'm more wanting a similar thing as what Carinth wants, something both unique but comparable to monks in terms of abilities, not simply I WANT MORE ARMOUR AND DAMAGE, but the tools for spies to help themselves achieve this.
So yes, I'm all for having spies balanced when these features are implemented, but as I've said again [and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, etc.] as in my experice with drones, they were balanced BEFORE additional features were added but WITH the additional features in mind when the balancing occured. What happened?
Almost EVERY droner quit or changed because they were FAR more useless then any other class in both PvP and PvM.
So right now spies are still getting the crappy end of the stick, AGAIN as I've outlined above, though some people can be effective it's in spite of these difficulties not through any advantage spies have.
And for a good spy u HAVE to drug cause drugged shelter spy > undrugged spy
Originally posted by Sefran
Sniper rifles should ignore deflectors ? that would mean u can kill any1 instant if u have 2 snipers? Dont agree there.
No. In case you hadn't noticed, damage on all weapons is affected to an extent by the health of the target. Therefore it is impossible to kill any person in one shot with any weapon. (ever wondered why it can take 3-4 HLs to kill a 0/2?)
Because of that, it takes at least 4 shots from a capped, explosive-modded SH to kill an unbuffed monk.
4 shots that must be at a range of 0,5m , from huge distance a unbuffed monk (not a single buff) 4 times ...y right...2 yes , 3 maybe but 4 dont think so...
Originally posted by Ehyuko
....So right now spies are still getting the crappy end of the stick, AGAIN as I've outlined above, though some people can be effective it's in spite of these difficulties not through any advantage spies have.
I agree...I dont think spies are totally and completely balanced but experience can make up for this.
So maybe people shouldnt fear the spy, rather fear the person who knows how to use a spy very well....
~Deo
Ack not trying to power post, however just because Divide/SorkZmok feel that their setups are perfectly balanced does NOT reflect the whole community. I'm quite certain Carinth could get many monks here who claim that they are not overpowered [although from what I remember Carinth himself believes certain aspects of monks are overpowered], simply stating that without any validation is in NO way justification for the way things are and the lack of balance.
Originally posted by Divide
not only do I play, the spy has been my main class since dec 2002. go to saturn and ask about me, Im sure you will hear some interesting stories. As one of the only people (on saturn) that has kept a spy as a combat spy and not given up and lommed to something like cst or res, I feel that my opinion is not only valid, but also more thought out than any of the other ranters here who think the spy is too weak, some of which probably havent even played a spy.
true enough u sticked it out even when i made and rerolled 2 spies to cap :p (btw i still cant believe that u gave away my 5 slot FL :mad: )
um lets see:
Lowering Inq 1 STR Req: sweet sure
Shelter lowered to 20 psi (assuming u mean not lowering the TL): eh... thats kinda iffy... on one hand shelter will make the spy powerful almost like mini-PEs sure... but on the other hand because the spy has less ppu points to spec than the PE (50 points less), the shelter will be weaker (since spell dmg is tech lvl dependent) so that might balance it out... perhaps we need to test it?
PE Nerf in def: fine
All classes should get resist cap removed: well not so much removed as putting points in resist should give MORE effect...
Monk stuff: eh dunt care that much; LOS doesnt do much these days otehr than sniping; but most fights with apus its toe to almost toe so not a big issue; better medis are a must; o and DEATH TO PARA!
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Divide, so from your experience, and admitting the fact spies are not a weak class, why don't you think giving them extra bonuses such as shelter and inq will be a bit excessive?
With the proposed bonuses/nerfs to other classes, this will be a very balanced game with my ideas. extreme monk overpowering is removed by making their spells require line of sight. PE's wont be tanks when buffed by a ppu to get huge health. Spies will STILL have the lowest body health, and either bad runspeed/slow rof/etc.
KramerTheWeird
24-01-04, 01:05
Making a class stand alone viable won't change the effect they get from ppu's, except make spies as durable as PE's because of added resists. A PE with holy def and shelter casted on him is in no way close to a tank with the same, in fact a PE self casting blessed deflector can get better protection than with a foreign def. A tank can reach damage protection much higher than a PE without shelter, so when they are gaven shelter they become much more resilient.
Shadow Dancer
24-01-04, 01:59
What's wrong with giving a spy shelter? I mean all these "hardcore" fancy famous PEs are always saying how spies can be equal or better to PEs by drugging to shelter, and drugging is "supposedly" no big deal right? I mean so many pes claim living on detrosol forte is no big deal, so then it should be no big deal if they didn't have to drug for shelter then. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Making a class stand alone viable won't change the effect they get from ppu's, except make spies as durable as PE's because of added resists. A PE with holy def and shelter casted on him is in no way close to a tank with the same, in fact a PE self casting blessed deflector can get better protection than with a foreign def. A tank can reach damage protection much higher than a PE without shelter, so when they are gaven shelter they become much more resilient.
kramer, if a pe is set up correctly, their resists will be on par with a tanks. the shelter helps, obviously enough to make pe's win the majority of duels that I have seen in a long time. The shelter belt puts the tank class back on top, with resists/shelter he will actually be as strong as I, and I believe many others will think he should be.
"a tank can reach damage... PE" this goes hand in hand with what I said above.
while *technically* having 170 total energy resist would lower the total dmg of a hl over-- say 120 resist, it doesnt. Which is why your point is nil.
KramerTheWeird
24-01-04, 03:34
you still don't get it.
A tank vs a PE one on one, the PE can have better defense. because of their shelter, naturally. That's the ONLY reason. Now, a PE cannot get to say 200 resist on most of his resists besides force and maybe pierce. A tank can do this. Combined with a shelter.. means... he has more... defense. I hope that is clear for you, I hate to dumb it down but you still aren't getting my point here. A tank gets more hitpoints too. Those same buffs a PE can recieve only furthur increase a tank's hitpoints. You won't see many PE's with beyond 500 health, buffs included, however you can find many tanks close to 500 without buffs even, and still have better resists. Not defense, RESISTS. The points you add to a skill, not the shelter that amplifies them. So what happens when they do get a shelter, amplfying their already higher resists? I hope you can answer that, as I've explained it many times already and you still haven't.
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
you still don't get it.
A tank vs a PE one on one, the PE can have better defense. because of their shelter, naturally. That's the ONLY reason. Now, a PE cannot get to say 200 resist on most of his resists besides force and maybe pierce. A tank can do this. Combined with a shelter.. means... he has more... defense. I hope that is clear for you, I hate to dumb it down but you still aren't getting my point here. A tank gets more hitpoints too. Those same buffs a PE can recieve only furthur increase a tank's hitpoints. You won't see many PE's with beyond 500 health, buffs included, however you can find many tanks close to 500 without buffs even, and still have better resists. Not defense, RESISTS. The points you add to a skill, not the shelter that amplifies them. So what happens when they do get a shelter, amplfying their already higher resists? I hope you can answer that, as I've explained it many times already and you still haven't.
apparently you arent getting it... 120 or 200 resist... there ... is ...no ...noticable ...difference.
KramerTheWeird
24-01-04, 03:52
I'll have to say bullshit on that. There is a difference, and it's enough to matter I think. It may not be extreme but still matters. Addtionally, tanks recieve more hp.
well, it might be "still on the test server" whatever, but as I write this, slasher is by far THE most powerful gun in the game, read my example on test server forum to see...
Even if they weaken if from what it is now on the test it will still be very good, so spies just did get a boost... so i dont think thier defence really needs one.
from 120 - 200 resist you gain ~3% PvP damage resist.
120 armor gives ~10% while 200 gives the capped 7.78%
Though it sounds small , you only take 33% PvP damage in the first place, so its nearly 10% extra resist compared to your unarmored (0 armor) resist.
OT: Hybrids are pretty much done for as we know them.
120 for holy halo, 120 blessed shelter, 123 blessed heal
Even with a DS and PSI Core you can only get this with PSI capped and no points in ppw.
And I would be happy if they just added some spy only fire armor that requires dex.
Say About 105 DEX Which is 'slighty' better than inq1 but not as good as inq2.
Originally posted by Leebzie
from 120 - 200 resist you gain ~3% PvP damage resist.
120 armor gives ~10% while 200 gives the capped 7.78%
Though it sounds small , you only take 33% PvP damage in the first place, so its nearly 10% extra resist compared to your unarmored (0 armor) resist.
hmm, almost 3% protection eh? It sounds like every tank around is going to lom so their resists are something like this:
fire: 150
energy: 200
xray: 50
poison: 0
what a great fucking idea, to do overkill in one of your resists simply by neglecting others!!!. you could have ALL the resists at
~10%, but instead you get 1 at 7.78, one at about 8.9, and the rest is just shit.
It is NOT WORTH having above 120 total resist (w/armor and natural included) as it currently stands, the idea to change this was yet another one in my "do this and the classes will be balanced" post.
Psycho Killa
24-01-04, 21:21
I certainly agree with resists benefits need to be changed up.
Certainly as your resists get higher you shouldnt receive as much of a bonus between 120 and 200 that you did between 0 and 80 but it definately should be a hell of alot more noticeable then it is currently.
And who said hybrids are dead? Just to let you know you have acces to psi armor which is the best armor in the game. Combine that with heavy belts even if you use pe level ppu spells you have roughly the same defense of a private eye.
Then you would definately cap rate of fire on a damage boost with a holy halo spell you could still take probably take out any tank or private eye around.
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