View Full Version : What do you consider balanced?
Psycho Killa
21-01-04, 00:48
Ok through all these balance and nerfing threads one thing has become clear to me. We will never be able to help argue the balance in this game unless we agree upon what balance really is.
1) Any Apu/Hybrid/Pe/Spy/Tank That dedicates 100 percent of his skills towards fighting should have a chance of killing the other one. For instance a tank and a rifle spy both run around a corner and bump into eachother face to face.. the tank plasters the spies brains all over the wall. Now the same two people this time the spy catches a glimpse of the tank in the horizon and snipes the dude. Now using the proper tactics and advantages of that class depending on circumstances such as the layout of the battle field and the distance, each class should have a chance of winning at different places and times.
2) Some people think due to storyline or "realism" that some classes should just be plain better then others no matter what. This happened frequently during tankocron where a tank said I deserve to take down 3 pe's because im a tank and I say so. Now I dont personaly agree with this one as in what point is it to play any other class then the dominate one? But your all entitled to your own opinion.
3) Even though a spy may go 100 percent combat he shouldnt be as good as a fighter in his own field just because if he wanted to he could pick up tradeskills. Same goes for pe's saying that they shouldnt be as strong as tanks because they have the opurtunity to drive hack repair etc... even though this sincerely impacts your fighting abilities. Though since they have this opurtunity where as a tank for example is limited to possible recycling and repairing a full combat tanks should have an advantage over a full combat pe.
4) Now this is the less serious option but from the amount of peopel that appear to think this way ill throw it out there... Most people seem to decide balance on what class is there favorite at the current time. Most people that I see post say I should be able to take out 4 of these guys for so and so reason. While the other class says well I should be able to take out 3 of these dudes because so and so.
5) Other please explain your idea of balance for this option.
I think before we can decide what is balanced and what isn't KK has to tell us what they want each class to do. I know way back, I think patch 163 or something, they forced specialization and said what they want each class to do but over time it has changed from what they want.
Still only time a APU solo can bust a tank are when they doesnt look at you and u got 4 shots for free =) A bit harder now when they nerfed the range so now u need a PPU in your ass to do some good
If balance was achievable then we'd all be communists.
Balance is not necessary in a game, play for fun, not to be as good as, or better than, everyone else.
shodanjr_gr
21-01-04, 00:59
I voted option 2.
I consider that some classes SHOULD be more powerfull in 1 on 1 close combat in comparison to others. A tank should always beat up a spy or a monk in CC battle. But a spy should be the king of long distances. Each class has a role and KK should see that this role gets implemented soon.
When a team based around covering each other's weaknesses and strengthening each other's advantages by using a variation of class which complement each other is more powerful than a team of equal numbers split into APUs and PPUs.
Nothing should be overpowered neither should be totaly equal. The class you're playing should be the way you want to play it. It's like guns in CS, AWP let's say is better than Scout, but it is less mobile and cost too much. If you like to surprise people with headshots and make your enemy fear of your skills, you'll definately pick Scout. Or you believe everyone uses M4 / AK47 too much and want to be different, you'll just stick to submachineguns or pistols only. You can say that M4 is overpowered compared to AK-47 but, no it's weaker but more accurate, while AK has more power but less accurate. For fools, this was just a comparison of variety and your personal preference. It's not what others think about certain class, but what you make out of it. It all comes down to YOU and YOU alone.
shodanjr_gr
21-01-04, 01:04
Originally posted by Cytaur
Nothing should be overpowered neither should be totaly equal. The class you're playing should be the way you want to play it. It's like guns in CS, AWP let's say is better than Scout, but it is less mobile and cost too much. If you like to surprise people with headshots and make your enemy fear of your skills, you'll definately pick Scout. Or you believe everyone uses M4 / AK47 too much and want to be different, you'll just stick to submachineguns or pistols only. You can say that M4 is overpowered compared to AK-47 but, no it's weaker but more accurate, while AK has more power but less accurate. For fools, this was just a comparison of variety and your personal preference. It's not what others think about certain class, but what you make out of it. It all comes down to YOU and YOU alone.
Noobstick (AWP) > ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shadow Dancer
21-01-04, 01:04
Originally posted by petek480
I think before we can decide what is balanced and what isn't KK has to tell us what they want each class to do. I know way back, I think patch 163 or something, they forced specialization and said what they want each class to do but over time it has changed from what they want.
a-fucking-men
I said this several times. And I also disliked the descriptions KK gave.
"pistol pe is support. rifle spy is support. rifle pe is support. apu is support"
Wow that clears up everything. Not. :rolleyes:
EDIT: I will say this. Every class should be equal in terms of overall power/skill, viability, and worth. This does NOT mean they should be the same. Just like a spy (except rade's spy :p) is tex suxor in close combat against a tank, doesn't mean their not balanced. Since they have stealth and 1337 sniper capability. Although I think their sniping should be improved. Also, what can a char bring to the team as well.
Balance isn't just about 1v1 in pepper park. lol.
I think that specialisation is the root of all evil in Neocron :(
IT SUCKS!!!!!
As Scikar mentions in every damn PE centered thread he posts in (sex @ Scikar), PEs say they are joats when it is convenient for them. Like wise I think most people who use the "realism" argument use it when it is convenient for them. If we wanted story line realism in the game carried over to the classes then A LOT of things would have to change. Realism just isn't the best option.
It's definitely number 1. The problem is when a player sees his class as a different role than it should. For example, the best thing I ever heard from a tank when killed by a rifle spy from far away is "why don't we duel and fight like men." The tank was callign the spy a coward for shooting from far away and was probably upset he died. Likewise although I think the PE is a very powerful class in the right hands, people some times forgets the classes limitations in most other situations. It's also because of this that I think Gentanks still need a massive boost in AoE combat.
I think we will have achieved balance when the perfect combat team will be more than just an equal number of monks. ;)
balanced ??
hmm how to balance..
uhh i know..
make it something like.... well... uhmm..
imagine a world..
imagine 4 people standing on it
imagine them being surrounded by everything they wanted
the PE.. would choose the fastest best aiming weapon
the spy would choose the most ranging and most damaging weapon
the tank would choose the fastest and most damaging weapon
the healer monk would take the best protection and healing spell
the killer monk would take the most damage and most area affecting spell they could get
imagine them fighting.
the pe running fast shooting bullets faster than the eye could catch hitting with every single one of them.
the spy running towards a hill top blowing out the brain of every one of them
the tank blasting wildly at everything that moves turning it into radioactive vapor.
the healer monk healing and protection every one of them.. even the spy on his hilltop
the killer monk spreading infernal hell turning the entire zone into an ocean of flames that even satan himself would envy..
then imagine..
the pe making a wrong turn.. and dies. either by the flaming inferno, the sniper bullet in his head, the giant green or red energy blob eradicating the very molecular structure of him
or
the spy on his hilltop missing a shot, and gets shot by a beam from the killer monk spotting the presence on that exact hilltop with its keen eyes, or the fast pe running towards it turning the entire hill and the spy into nothing but holes, or the tank shooting a massive electrical discharge from a AoE weapon demolishing the entire hill.
or how about
the tank, losing sight of the fast pe, and gets blown to bits by the rapidness of the pe, or gets electrocuted by a killermonks lightning spell, or gets his heart pierced over and over by the skilled sniper spy.
or even
the killer monk, having difficulties aiming at the fast pe, and gets his unprotected skin made into the body of countless holes and plasma burns, or the tank surprising it blasting the one plasma blob after the other pushing the killer monk back and down until its just a steaming corpse..
or what if
the healer monk missed a buff ? got buffed by one of the others ? got surprised unready ? doesnt have good enough skill or spells ? would he not die ? yes he would.
the point of this is of course..
given the right opportunity, figuring out the best setup for your character AND you.
getting the right stuff, fighting the right way.. practising, becoming one with your character...
from last patch and until today i thought my characters were destroyed.. i even gave up 3 of them.. as they were of absolute no use.. but i kept my tank.. i kept him.. and i tried.. and i did it.. i made him actually work..
its just about finding the right way to setup your char.. and use it.
but if there is anyway to balance the game.. it would be by testing it over and over. and then in the end.. there would be something that seemed that it was all about the way you handle your char that makes it good...
even if the game becomes 100 % balanced.. there will always be someone clever enough to find some itsy bitsy tiny little small almost impossible to see way of making their char better, or simply... just dont make mistakes during war.
but then again, i am but a tank.. what possible intelligent could i have to say ?
Naimex, that story would make a kickass movie :D The PE owned hardcore
Balance is the crux of any game involving people. It's much easier to attain in single player because the monsters don't care when they get owned.
The real "solution" to balancing is to give everyone the same stats and the same weapon. Identical everything. Then, you have a balanced game. In other words it's not possible, and all you can do is opt for circumstantial advantages which Neocron already has.
This community is worse than the Counter-strike community for immature kids as well as people whining about 'balance'.
The only way to balance this game is to have one character class with no RP skills and 1 weapon throughout the game.
Deathmatch anyone?
1V1 OR 2V2 PVP will never be balanced imo. It can't be done.
Team PvP will allways be balanced as long as the numbers are the same on either side. This is because each team has access to everything the other has. It's then defined by skill factor.
This is why i can't stand the pepper park whingers.
Originally posted by Strieder
Naimex, that story would make a kickass movie :D The PE owned hardcore
lol...
someone call George Lucas.. let him add his stupid monk with a laserblade in the movie and let him name the sucker Luke Skywalker..
and then make him pay up some money.. and then we give money to KK so they could start adding some serious items, to the game.. make the world 100000000 times bigger.. and no caps anywhere.. just pure on the best setup / character controller will be king of the world..
hell.. why dont we just make more worlds.. starship travel.. galactic gates..
Now featuring : wars with different backgrounds, different styles.. r2d2 wanking off c3p0 inside some cave... gravitational differences.. and whatever else psyched up stuff we can think off..
well lets not continue this moment of glory further.. back on subject peeps...
ohh and euhmm..
Sorry for writing my insanitational mind blobs in your noble thread.
may you show mercy upon my ehm.. whats that word again ??
Well PP aint for tiny apus or spies maybe PE:s and the tank wins it 10000 times. Can take sooo much dmg and give at least ahlf of it :p
Its sooo tiny and you cant run away so desert > PP for me as a APU =)
1) Any Apu/Hybrid/Pe/Spy/Tank That dedicates 100 percent of his skills towards fighting should have a chance of killing the other one. For instance a tank and a rifle spy both run around a corner and bump into eachother face to face.. the tank plasters the spies brains all over the wall. Now the same two people this time the spy catches a glimpse of the tank in the horizon and snipes the dude. Now using the proper tactics and advantages of that class depending on circumstances such as the layout of the battle field and the distance, each class should have a chance of winning at different places and times.
^^sounds about right option 1 for meh
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 02:31
Option one.
#1 one as well but i tend to agree there would not be as much arguement over balance if we threw specialization out the window or at least dulled it down somewhat so you could be good with 2 skills or be great with one instead of making it mandatory to heap all your points into one stat just to compete in pvp.
Idealy each class would have a strong point and a weak point. For example spies can be snipers who should be able to kill people at range. If you get close to a spy, the spy will die because they're weak to close combat. A droner works in much the same way. A Tank is totaly specilizaed in close combat, at range they shouldn't do so well. A Monk, I'm not entirely sure, i think we're supposed to be midranged fighters, we wouldn't like to get into close combat adn risk our bodies being hit, but then we do need to see the target with just our eyes (no scope) to target them.
Reality isn't so nice, in Neocron every fight becomes close combat. This used to give the Tanks a decided advantage, hence why we had Tankocron. They were edged out by Monks who can do both ranged and close combat fighting. It's hard to think of a way to sort out the current mess for a more balanced neocron. How exactly do you allow spies to fight at range and be effective, yet not make it totaly unfair for someone caught in their sites.
maybe have it so that one class if set up right could kill at least one other class
one kills monk 6- 10 times
" " tank 6- 10 times
" " Spy 6- 10 times
" " PE 6 -10 times
and then vary there ability to kill other classes
so that if monk o cron is the set up more peeps would become there bane say Spy :-p and then more would roll as PEs to kill spies and more would roll to tanks to kill PEs causing them to roll as monks
adding to an endless chain of rerolls not sure if that is a good thing of course but an idea maybe ill log in now hehe bye
well, i can handle pp with my apu, just capped poison beam with me, 6-7 hits and zone, with out ppu tank will be pretty fucked up :)
yeayea, bla bla, zoning is lame :) (it is)
I'd prefer the more complicated version of balance as in this:
Each class is weak to one other class, strong to another class, and equal to another class. Well and equal to one another I suppose :p
For example, Spies > Monks > PEs > Tanks > Spies > Monks > PEs > Tanks > Spies etc.
Of course, I suppose I'd have to seperate APU's and PPU's, but it was just an example anyway.
Before someone else does:
FPS ROCK, PAPER, SCISSORS!
[TgR]KILLER
21-01-04, 11:53
option one in some way.. a spy and a tank in a face to face duel with 2 good players the tank should still win imo.. but over a distance sniping and a spy doing what it does best it should be aible to win.. but i'v seen spies win duels vs's tanks way way back without stealth or anything..
Imo.. u can't 100% purely balance things because it will always depend on the player behind the char.. make a ownage Tank setup but a pure PE player won't be aible to handle it and the same way for a pure Spy player on a APU monk.. if u know what i meen..
Option 2 "One class should be stronger then the other due to realism or storyling" Got my vote.
Tanks are the warriors of NC if you read the background story. PSI Monks should be able to lift peeps into the air and make 'em go "pop!".
Originally posted by GT_Rince
PSI Monks should be able to lift peeps into the air and make 'em go "pop!". I'll accept that if you don't mind having a sight range of 10 meters. :)
To quote:
The skin of these people is hardly pigmented and they are extremely thin and lean of stature. They are bald and have big black eyes with virtually no white left. It's discovered that they apparently don't communicate verbally and that they are as good as blind.
As for an explanation as to why you shouldn't have it anymore beyond that, I'd be very surprised if most/all of the PSI Monks in NC haven't had children with some of the other of NC's classes, so obviously they aren't as "pure" anymore as they were.
Urgh, that feels so wrong to say.
Originally posted by J. Folsom
I'll accept that if you don't mind having a sight range of 10 meters. :)
To quote:
"they are as good as blind."
Yeah, but now contact lenses have been invented (again !) :D
Originally posted by GT_Rince
Yeah, but now contact lenses have been invented (again !) :D Sure there's that... :lol:
Anyway, as I said, it's likely that PSI Monks aren't as strong as their ancestors when it comes to pure Psionic power anymore, which also explains why you now need a PSI Amplifier (In the form of a glove), and modules to insert into the PSI Amplifier.
I'm pretty sure those monks of the old days didn't have either of those.
[TgR]KILLER
21-01-04, 12:18
Originally posted by J. Folsom
Sure there's that... :lol:
Anyway, as I said, it's likely that PSI Monks aren't as strong as their ancestors when it comes to pure Psionic power anymore, which also explains why you now need a PSI Amplifier (In the form of a glove), and modules to insert into the PSI Amplifier.
I'm pretty sure those monks of the old days didn't have either of those.
To true.. they just stoot there in the cave thingy trowing ppl around with their minds..
MayhemMike
21-01-04, 14:25
I didn't really read replys, but APU monks will never be balanced, its just to easy to clip around stuff and still hit people.
Hmmm makes no sense .... that if you put a Tank , PE , Monk , and SPY in a room , and say kill that they should be about the same ... why ...
There another aspect to the game, whens the last time you saw a tank barter or stealth.
If All Else Equal
1 v 1 .... PE and Tank should be close to equal...Remeber a tank has no choice he stays and fights or is shot in the back ....PE can stealth....
APU has long range and massive damage but tank and PE should win in close combat ...
The balance is not a 1v1 ... Its how a team should balance that counts ... Say a team of 4 .....A team of APU, PPU, Tank and PE should be as good as the team with different combinations with the exception of the PPU
PPU needs a PPU in other team else no balance.... 2xAPU PE Tank Should be as good as 4XPE or 2xAPU 2xPE or 4xTanks ....
If everyone has a roughly equal chance of killing anyone else in a 1v1 situation ... yes, that is "balanced", but it is a simple form of game balance. It is so simplistic that you effectively have only one class; i.e. if everyone does roughly the same damage, and has roughly the same protections (more or less) then you would have the exact same result if you throw away all but one of the classes; at least with regard to combat. The classes just have different names, different names for equipment, different special effects, and so forth but are essentially the same (e.g. casting a 50 point damage spell is really no different than shooting a 50 point bullet, and buffing for +30 protection is effectively no different than having +30 armor). This approach works very well, is relatively easy to achieve, and generally requires little in the way of post-release tweaking and nerfing - hence the designers can focus more on adding new abilities and content rather than ongoing [re]balancing.
A more sophisticated form of game balance involves wide differences in abilities, for example a class that does awesome damage but is easy to kill, and another that does modest damage but is very hard to kill. The former may be so deadly as to kill half a dozen others before being taken down, and the latter sometimes kills others solo but may need to have multiple people attacking it simultaneously before being destroyed. This approach *can* work very well, but is very difficult to achieve, with post-release reality often being ongoing tweaks and nerfs by the designers.
Ultimately, "balanced" means that combat works well in the game and reflects the goals of the designers.
We have so many arguments about game balance on these forums, and so many cries for nerfing, because some of the players believe that Neocron should have the balance described in my first paragraph, and others feel that it should be along the lines of my second paragraph. I prefer the second, because I find it more interesting and challenging.
At times it seems that KK is trying to have sophisticated balance, but at other times it appears they give in to nerf cries and rebalance things towards the more simplistic approach.
Spook
This game is not just PvP, and any idea of balance must take that into account.
So all classes should be "equal" in terms of OVERALL game functionality. Tradeskills and Combat ability both need to be weighed. Maybe not equally, but BOTH need to be taken into account when talking about balance.
Since the Spy is the king of tradeskills, I have NO problem with them being weaker in combat, for example.
Originally posted by Strych9
This game is not just PvP, and any idea of balance must take that into account.
So all classes should be "equal" in terms of OVERALL game functionality. Tradeskills and Combat ability both need to be weighed. Maybe not equally, but BOTH need to be taken into account when talking about balance.
Since the Spy is the king of tradeskills, I have NO problem with them being weaker in combat, for example. were talking about balance in a combat sence, so the spy would be 100% geared up to be combat orientated, of course if a spy has trade skill then they would be less effective than a full on killer spy
well any ammount of monks does the team even stronger....
2 APUs and 1 PPU with a tank are MUCH better then 1 PPUs and 3 tanks.
APU > PPU with HAB thats thier true strenght they could waste the ppu in notime.. if all went on him.
But loads of APU and a PPU to them are a holy team thats it.
The Shelter nerf was good imo now cant apus run around with real PPU shelter and deflector =)
1) PE prepared to duel should be most powerfull in 1on1 combat because he has access to all skills and have no weakness.
But team of PEs < mixed team.
2) Spy - his main strenght should be surprise - sudden pop out of stealth, long shoot from far away or drone from above.
3) Tank should deal big damage and be able to withstand much through his huge HLT pool, so even surprise attack wouldn't knock him down at once.
4) Monks
- Hybrid - all should be hybrid by default. Compensating mediocre damage with dmgboost and lack of armor with medium shields and weak heals. Medium dmg and medium defence.
- Apu -(expert class) total kamikaze with minimal protection. Deals biggest damage but often dead b4 managing to kill anyone
- Ppu - support, but not invincible. Reducing most dmg with powerfull shields, boosting teammate's HLT pool and skills. Healing- yes, but not outhealing.
Healing reduced :
Blessed and Holy heals should be only bit stronger that TL3, but they should last longer. Holy - very long, few minutes.
Ppus changed:
Power of Ppus should be moved to boosting stats and max HLT.
Synaptic impairment after Ressurection - less with Holy.
So PPU presence still will give and edge, but PPU would do his work PREPARING to battle, not DURING.
Parashock removed:
Only meele fighters with high TL electroshockers should be able to slow their victims down a BIT, not freeze.
Hybrid nerf : All high-power spells, both apu and ppu with insane TLs and requirements, so only most crazy and devoted specialized monks could reach them. (Just like KK is planning to do now - this will also separate hybrid's weapons from Apu's so one subclass could be tweaked[nerfed] without affecting another)
HLT pool extended, only Tanks should be able to approach cap (more dependant on CON).
--
Yes, I stand against PPU invinciblity - that is Crahn Holy Outheal Everything at most. I want heal power to be reduced greatly, now it is just absurd, almost dead tank can be brought back in battle in matter of seconds.
That is my vision of balance. Everyone have chance of wining, but in most cases one who will be better prepared and manage to enforce his own rules will win.
Imo option 1 and i think its close to balance atm...
Tanks and pe's are close quarter fighters with decent damage and defence, atm they are pretty well balanced.
Apus, extreme damage low defence, almost balanced atm, imo remove random damage and tweak from there.
PPUs, extreme defence, low attack, almost balanced, everyclass has ways to kill them (Tl3 heal, antibuff, poison), certain spells need fixed mainly parashock.
Hybrids, unknown but hopefully balanced, good dmg and defence, good in duels and in situations without a ppu, bad with situations with a ppu. Balanced imo as if you increase their attack so they're good in situations with a ppu, then too powerful against unbuffed people, and if you drop their dmg in duels etc insignificant dmg to a buffed person. Fair trade-off.
Spies, Possible to get a decent defencive setup but imo they shouldnt be balanced around it as their not ment to fight in duel situations like tanks if people can make them to then kudos to them but dont balance the class around it.
Rifle spies, good when fighting at range, powerfull, sniper rifles might need slight boost but pretty balanced. Good recon chars.
Droner spies, need some loving but looks like its coming. Good distance fighters but atm too easy to find and drop them, so remove from local/give them a local list when droning and give them a form of cammo armour. Dmg is ok bit low to unbuffed person but being tweaked atm so have to wait and see.
Pistol spies, not really a spies primary weapon, mainly used by tadeskillers, imo good enought atm once slasher boosted, the only way they could be made better would be to up defence but that would make them too close to a pe and un-balance other spies imo. And as said above spies can get good defencive setups if they try.
Melee tanks, underestimated class, great defence, decent offence, needs weapon mods and imo para really kills this class so perhalps put a -200hc on melee pa and give it a resistance to para.
Just how i see it atm, and im not saying the classes are balanced in the sense that they shouldnt get new toys, just that atm in combat situations most are performing how they should.
Edit: Imo you cant compare a ppu with a char in a 2 v 1 situation with another class, when comparing how a ppu effects combat each side in the comparison should have equal ppus as they are the only combat support class in the game so there is nothing else to compare them to.
my personal idea on balance in this game is far from what it is right now.
For starters there are only a few main fighting classes, thats tanks/apu's/ppu
Now dont get me wrong, a pe and a spy can be good fighters too, a spy IF they go all out combat setup can be very effective with rifles.
My idea on PE's is one which would get me flamed to hell, but I don't think a PE should be as good as a tank/apu/ppu in any situation, or even a spy in rifles or pistols, mainly because the other classes have skills that go upto 100, where as the PE is the average allrounder, they are not crap but just are not as good in any one area as the others are "should be".
Also if a Spy or any class has any tradeskills, forget about trying to be balanced against others who are built fighters, so those spies who moan coz they can't drop a tank and they have poking or hacking or something like that, stfu.
Removing para spells and making holy heal less powerful on foriegn cast would bring PPU's in balance with others, tanks atm seem fine as they are "although PA lvl 4 is pointless atm" and APU's also seem fine now, PE's we all know about being to powerful, having the same if not better defense than a tank and being able to stealth about like a spy is just wrong imho, but thats something for KK to fix/sort out.
Can't really think what else would bring more balance to the game at this stage, but who knows what is going to be added with more patches and DOY, certainly the next patch with hybrids will be interesting but i dont think they will become a big problem like they was many months ago, maybe they will be viable again to fight with, but not over powered.
just my opinions.
Shadow Dancer
21-01-04, 17:24
hrmmm reducing the power of bless and holy heal, but making them last alot longer.
That's very interesting. I like it alot. I think it should at least be looked into.
If your going to make a near invincible class not invincible even though its a PASSIVE character it needs to be given a beter offense than a TL 8 spell or a TL like 38 pistol
especialy since you want to remove parashock of all types except tasers for melee users
They have. SoulClusters.
Necromancers in Diablo2 also had almost no offence. That didn't stopped me from reaching 99lvl : D.
Support class levels by team exp - that's my opinion.
Keep in mind that I want most monks to be hybrids. Specialised Apu/Ppu should be an option only for devoted team players.
Originally posted by J. Folsom
I'll accept that if you don't mind having a sight range of 10 meters. :)
To quote:
As for an explanation as to why you shouldn't have it anymore beyond that, I'd be very surprised if most/all of the PSI Monks in NC haven't had children with some of the other of NC's classes, so obviously they aren't as "pure" anymore as they were.
Urgh, that feels so wrong to say.
The thing that really gets me is, we're supposed to be master's of dna and genetic codes. We created Tanks, we modified Spies (doesnt say explicitly but at the very least we encouraged certain traits). Yet we can't improve our own stock. Maybe it goes against Crahn beliefs, whatever they are. Seems odd to find it acceptable to mess with other humans, but not yourself.. Oh wait, maybe they don't consider non monks fully human? That could be. Anyway yea due to mixed breeding, psi monks now are much closer to the human norm then we were back in that cave. I wish our eyes still glowed red tho : D
Spectra260
21-01-04, 21:49
i think that tanks should be the best PvPers, second would probably be PE's, then APU's, then spys..
I like Stone/Paper/Scissors, but perhaps it'll spoil the game after 5 minutes of play.
Originally posted by Carinth
The thing that really gets me is, we're supposed to be master's of dna and genetic codes. We created Tanks, we modified Spies (doesnt say explicitly but at the very least we encouraged certain traits). Yet we can't improve our own stock. Maybe it goes against Crahn beliefs, whatever they are. Seems odd to find it acceptable to mess with other humans, but not yourself.. Oh wait, maybe they don't consider non monks fully human? That could be. I actually think they're still attempting to perfect their Genetic Modification techniques before using them on themselves.
Which seems about what I'd expect from them, to be honest.
This quote from the rumours part of the Crahn Sect history (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Guide_Factions&file=crahn) seems to confirm that, even if it is a rumour:
Supposedly the PSI Monks have been trying for a long time to genetically engineer a new race of superhumans, who will perfectly adapt to the living conditions of a largely radiated world.
Originally posted by Spectra260
i think that tanks should be the best PvPers, second would probably be PE's, then APU's, then spys..
Spectra there is nothing that could justify Tanks being the best in combat. Combat is the endgame for everyclass aside from the support classes. Even the history agrees, Tanks were made to be cannon fodder. Send an army of Tanks out while the Monks blast the enemy while hiding safely behind the Tanks. Often Monks wouldn't even fight themselves, they just let others do the work for them. That doesn't mean Monks aren't formidable fighters, we did take control of Neocron and supress any hint of rebellion for quite a long time. Even spies should be capable fighters. Each achieves this in their own way. Spies use technology and long range, Monks use psi, Tanks use big guns, pe's use a lil bit of each.
JackScratch
21-01-04, 22:52
None of these near sume up the complexity of what balance truely is. To achieve balance each class should have aproximately equal value as considered when accounting all posible tasks within the confines of the game. In otherwords, balance should be realy hard to define. In a perfect world you could theoreticly measure balance by looking at which class tends to be more prominant, however this would not account for the dreaded "FAD". Sadly I fear that balance will only be a concept that people talk about like they have a clue. Myself I leave it to the Dev's, not because I feel they are better suited for the job, but because I don't want it.
Psycho Killa
21-01-04, 22:52
Is it me or do people forget that tanks where just mass made infantry that was whiped out until the invention of power armor? Sounds like the all mighty fighter to me :rolleyes:
The way i see it:
hc tanks, pistol/rifle pes, apus, pistol/rifle spies ==> are pretty balanced...
mc tanks need a little more luv; snipers need a little more luv...
droners need LOTSA luv...
ppus need to be tweaked... (i.e. lower power of heals)
all shockers/stunners/freezers need to be removed... :p
why?
well as is in accord with option 1, about everyone having a chance in pvp 1v1: hc tanks, pistol/rifle pes, apus, pistol/rifle spies all can do that; i.e. one of the above can kill any of the other with some set of skills/advantages other than using a ppu.
I say mc tanks need luv cuz from my own experience as of now the only class i as a mc tank have NOT killed is a fully buffed skilled pe (cuz their damn fast; and shelters/def make the dmg of melee to be like shit). I've killed hc tanks using my speed and their shitty aim; killed spies as long as its not at range... nugh said; killed apus solo but its tough at times; even killed a apu buffed by a ppu but again it was a toughy... so i conclude that melee still need some luv in terms of dmg increase but thats pretty much it.
I say snipers need some luv because of a combo of factors: first the dmg is still low; then with the crappy rof and the clipping limitations, u really cant use all the power available to a sniper; and with ppu on heals u can almost heal the dmg from one shot before the next one arrives. But because its still pretty far ranged, I think a slight increase to dmg would be sufficient; just a little luvin.
PPus: the shelter/def tweaks are good; the rez nerf was a bit harsh but still livable (maybe increase the RoF just a little weee bit); now theres just hte issue of heals; a heal slapped on someone can make em nearly unkillable...
shockers/stunners/freezers: NO NO and NO! slapping a shocker on someone pretty much kills spies, apus, and pes in terms of pvp viability; tanks are also affected but not as much mainly because they can take more dmg and therefore the slight downtime from getting shocked to poping a drug isnt too great. take that same dmg that a tank takes and put it to a spy or apu and that char is down 50%... pe's are likewise effected but if he has a shelt/def it wont be too bad... maybe only 30%.
just my 2 cents.
Nullifidian
21-01-04, 23:08
I think KK needs to stop doing ANYTHING that relates to combat in the game and focus completely on making non-combat activities MORE FUN.
Yes, you heard me, MORE FUN. Not more powerful, not more uber, MORE FUN. Currently, all non-combat activities are made up of either watching a progress bar move or playing a simplistic puzzle game. Sorry, but those are not fun.
Once the non-combat gameplay is more fun, then it should be balanced so that those with highest potential for non-combat play should be given the weakest potential for combat, and so on and so forth.
Also, I would like to see all thing balanced such that having a slight edge does not guarantee victory. Currently it does. I would like to see the complete elimination of specialization. Gaining skillpoints should unlock the ability to use more skills, not simply get you closer to being effective at using one skill. The way the current game is, you aren't effective at doing jack shit until you are close to cap, all because of this goddamn specialization bullshit. Specialization ruined the game for me. At first I thought it was cool until I woke up and saw the fucking reality of it. Before specialization, midlevel runners could be effective in combat. When I say midlevel, I'm talking about rank 30. Those folks could use weapons that could do enough damage to actually at least make a bloody dent in higher level players. With the way monk shields are that just is flat out fucking impossible now.
Bah, it's all a pipe dream anyway. Not like KK gives a shit about anything other than shooting at shit. It's either be a cookie cutter or a gimp, and there's nothing in between, and tradeskills are only for mules. That'll never change.
Honestly I don't know why I bother to post. It's clear it'll get completely ignored.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
I think KK needs to stop doing ANYTHING that relates to combat in the game and focus completely on making non-combat activities MORE FUN.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
I think KK needs to stop doing ANYTHING that relates to combat in the game and focus completely on making non-combat activities MORE FUN.
Nullifidian
21-01-04, 23:32
You wanna know what would make tradeskills fun?
If researchers could invent their own brand new items. New weapons, new armors, new implants, new drones, new drugs, etc.
All itemparts would have a meaning instead of just a part number. They would be given real names first off. Each part would influence the stats on a finished product in some way. For example, certain gunbolts might influence the ammo type of a weapon. Certain plate materials might influence the protection type and grade of a piece of armor. Certain circuitry might influence the stat changes of an implant. Each item would require certain categories of items to be included, but other than that, researchers could pick and choose at will from a list of over a hundred different items, which in total would provide millions and millions of possible combinations.
Constructors then would be capable of changing the process by which they modify existing items. Instead of specifically designated upgrades, constructors would use existing itemparts as mods since every itempart would have modifiers associated with it. Constructors would also be capable of opening up and replacing individual parts inside an object with different parts in order to modify the stats. That would be possible without any slots.
Recyclers could open items and remove some parts. They would of course disable the item as a result, but if you have a broken gun for example, some parts might be in excellent condition and actually be more valuable than the broken gun itself. Items found on mobs that are in poor condition might contain a high quality part or two that would be very difficult to create and impossible to buy. Thus, recyclers would not only have a valuable place in the world, they'd have a fun and exciting time while scavanging. You'd have a real sense of treasure hunting, because even a seemlingly worthless nailgun you find on a mutant might contain a high quality bolt or gyro.
Repairing too would change accordingly. Sometimes in order to repair properly it might be necessary to replace a busted part. Repairers would have to open up an item and successfully identify which parts need to be replaced. Better repairers would be better able to find which parts are broken and would be able to install replacements with less quality loss than those with lower skill. However player skill would still be required not in a twitch sense but in a thinking sense. A repairer with better knowledge of which parts do what would be able to replace multiple parts with more efficient ones that can serve the same function for an overall possible improved effect.
The idea with all of these is that where as combat requires the player to have hand-eye coordination skill, non-combat activities would require the player to be able to think more logically and have greater personal knowledge of the activity he/she is doing. Designing better items, modifying items to be superior, repairing items to make them better than new, spotting parts in a broken item which can prove useful, etc. would all require a player to think better in order to be better.
Spectra260
21-01-04, 23:49
well you would just think that somthing genetically enginered to fight, would be good at it...
Originally posted by Spectra260
well you would just think that somthing genetically enginered to fight, would be good at it...
they were bred to be meat sheilds, not kung fu masters.
:rolleyes:
there should be a new kung fu class... like fists... and rare gluvs... KUNG F00000000000!
Originally posted by Spectra260
well you would just think that somthing genetically enginered to fight, would be good at it...
You are 100% correct. And Tanks are "good" at combat. They're the easiest to setup for pvp, aside from magical con. Nowhere though does it say Tanks are the best at combat. Nor that they are even better then the other humans around. Just that they're good : ) It's fare more cheaper to produce 1000 average troops and throw them into combat as cannon fodder, then to produce 100 highly trained super combat ops. Monks chose to mass produce Tanks to combat the massive number of doy bots they had to fight. Keep in mind, the Monks are in absolute control of Neocron. It is not a good idea to produce humans who are better at combat then you are, if you want to maintain total control. Even if all of your troops swear loyalty, there will be some that slip away, and once that happens your enemies will have a huge advantage. As it is, who cares of a Tank changes loyalties.
This is the basis for many scifi movies about artificial inteligence taking over. Scientists build prototype AI and pat themselves on the back for their brilliance. Humans are extremely limited in our capabilities, due to many factors, but primarily space and access rate. Our brain is not a very good storage device, hence we forget so many things. An AI would never forget and would be able to hold vastly larger stores of knowledge then we could even comprehend. Thus the AI is much superior to man and immediatly plans a path to minimize any threat to itself. Also I assume it will want to make many backups of itself, another handy feature humans can't do. Anyway, Man makes Machines, Machines do not accept Man's authority, Machines anihilate Man. Ooops!
PS. If you're interested in this I recommend the Animatrix, a collection of short movies set in the world of The Matrix. The clips are done by some of the more famous anime designers. The Second Renaissance I & II is the relevant movie. It details the transition from human controlled earth to machine controlled earth.
Psycho Killa
22-01-04, 00:49
The animatrix kicks ass. Id rather be forced to sit through that for the rest of my life then to even see either one of the matrix sequels again :(
Shadow Dancer
22-01-04, 04:07
I have nothing to say, except I agree completely with Nullifidian.
I wish ALL non combat skills were fun to use. And if that was the case, i wish Neocron could have UO"s style of skill gain. Basically you increase a skill by using it.
Imagine pvpers leveling up by pvping, so they HAVE FUN WHILE THEY LEVEL. OMFG CRAZY IDEA!
Or imagine hackers exploring worlds inside the matrix or whatever. And gaining hack skill while doing it.
Bleh :(
Mr Friendly
22-01-04, 07:25
#1, & personally i only believe thats gunna happen if para is removed
JackScratch
22-01-04, 07:46
Boo Hoo Para, Wah Psi monk, everyone has it better than me, nerf this nerf that. These threads are a waste of time. This comunity doesn't have a clue. A game as beutiful in scope as Neocron is, comes along, and all the adolecent players are able to see is Counter Strike, how can I be teh uber sup3r pwn PvP. You all deserve the absolute crap you are going to turn this game into. I'm not against PvP, but this comunity is stupidly obsesed with it, and it makes me sick. There is so much more to this game, and yet the subject of balance is constantly boiled down to 1 on 1 PvP. Nerfing is for wimps. Play the game the way it is, or go home.
Psycho Killa
22-01-04, 07:52
Wow your right jack this innocent thread about asking other people what they considered balance is about nerfing or whining.
But yes if kk made it so tanks could look at people and they died it would be very very bad of us for to voice or opinions. Theres no point in playing this game if theres not some reasonable amount of balance. Do you want one class to be overpowered and see half the server running around as that class.... O shit thats what we have now.
Theres a difference between crying nerf and wanting balance. Im not crying nerf hell in this thread I wasnt asking for balance I just wanted to hear different peoples opinions on what acceptable balance is.
You posting that dribble was 1000 times more pointless then this thread could ever be.
Not everything is pvp but thats why I had several different options. Option 1 only includes pvp if you look at option 3 which is explained a bit better in my post should the game be balanced considering what other things a class is capable of other then pvp. Maybe if you werent so blind with your hatred against pvpers you would notice that.
JackScratch
22-01-04, 07:55
Psych, look at the post imediately before mine. It's not the start of the thread I'm talking about, it's the sad, inevitable outcome. I'm not complaining about your performance, it's your inbread audience I have a problem with.
I have nothing against PvPers, nothing at all. My hatred is of linear thinking, something this forum and game have in sad abundance. Get over the persecution complex
Psycho Killa
22-01-04, 07:58
Originally posted by JackScratch
These threads are a waste of time.
Well then sorry but thats mostly what I took out of the post and since i started the thread i took offense to it.
Though I agree half the people on this forums.. correction 90 percent are retard whiners but you seem to generalize to much. People who want balance arent neccesarily whining. Some of us put a little more thought into it. I myself am a ppu... now when i take a look at a pic of an op fight I see that theres 90 percent monks now that tells me something wrong and i voice my opinion on the forum of how that should be fixed.
On the other hand I see what your saying some people lose a fight to another class and whine because they couldnt rape them silly.
Hopefully KK is able to sift through this forum and take out the genuine good ideas and weed out the poinltess whines.
Originally posted by JackScratch
Boo Hoo Para, Wah Psi monk, everyone has it better than me, nerf this nerf that. These threads are a waste of time. This comunity doesn't have a clue. A game as beutiful in scope as Neocron is, comes along, and all the adolecent players are able to see is Counter Strike, how can I be teh uber sup3r pwn PvP. You all deserve the absolute crap you are going to turn this game into. I'm not against PvP, but this comunity is stupidly obsesed with it, and it makes me sick. There is so much more to this game, and yet the subject of balance is constantly boiled down to 1 on 1 PvP. Nerfing is for wimps. Play the game the way it is, or go home.
Yeah and like you have a fucking clue how to balance the game mr i'm a fucking whining carebear that never pvps but thinks i know everything about it. You're a fucking moron that only cares about rpings. Well sorry to tell you but this game is largely based around pvp and if you don't like to pvp then go fucking play swg and rp all you want and not ruin it for everyone.
i voted option 1
option 2 is the reason we keep getting such a movement between classes (monkocron atm)...and hence why nerfs and whining happen
JackScratch
22-01-04, 08:03
I'm glad to see we have a concensus. When I said these threads are a waste of time, I meant they are a waste of time, as pearls before swine. I didn't agree with your choices because I beleive they oversimplify a near infinitly complexed issue. Non of which matters, because as much as you simplify the issue, the idiots in these forums took it straight to the good old standards, "NERF THE MONKS!!!" Im sick of that crap and all "nerf" or "my class is to weak" arguements" because they do not near consider all, hell half, of the factors. It's all boiled down to one on one (maybe 2 on 2 ) PvP, and this game is about sooooooo much more. Sorry if I offended you.
Petek - I'm pretty sure you have violated several forum rules. Sadly not haveing a clue isn't against the forum rules or you would be violateing that one as well. You have set some sort of record for not getting it. You are a cromagnum who has no business interacting with other human beings. Please don't ever consider procreation.
Ghostly - incorrect, shortsightedness and linear thinking are the reasons for those things, not balance. Fads are fads, and these changes and the arguements surrounding them are just that "Fads"
Psycho Killa
22-01-04, 08:12
I just used these options because I felt they where a fair brief description of what I meant and if I wrote out all the factors to consider in balancing with all the options it would be five pages long and with my experience if your post is longer then 10 to 20 lines then noone reads it around here....
Originally posted by JackScratch
Petek - I'm pretty sure you have violated several forum rules. Sadly not haveing a clue isn't against the forum rules or you would be violateing that one as well. You have set some sort of record for not getting it. You are a cromagnum who has no business interacting with other human beings. Please don't ever consider procreation.
No i do get it. You're the one that doesn't get it. You don't care about balance you just about that your monk doesn't get nerfed becuase you have no pvp at all so you gotta play an overpowered class. Talking about not having any pvp skills, what the fuck even gives you the right to talk about balancing? You don't pvp you don't do ops battle, you fucking rp.
JackScratch
22-01-04, 08:18
Originally posted by petek480
No i do get it. You're the one that doesn't get it. You don't care about balance you just about that your monk doesn't get nerfed becuase you have no pvp at all so you gotta play an overpowered class. Talking about not having any pvp skills, what the fuck even gives you the right to talk about balancing? You don't pvp you don't do ops battle, you fucking rp.
Wow, you sure seem to have a lot of insight into my thoughts and feelings. Hey, Kreskin, care to predict the superbowl. I've been playing the same class since beta 4, I have never once requested any class be changed in any way. I do PvP, I'm just not a mindless (emphasis on mindless) killing machine. I've been in plenty of OP battles, no I'm not very good at PvP. You give me one reason why my perspective is any less valid than anyone elses and we will talk. So far however you have given me abuse, a violation of furom rules which is likely to get this thread shut down for no good reason. My only hope is that it at the very least gets you banned as well.
nonamebrandeggs
22-01-04, 08:21
What is a "cromagnum" and a "Kreskin?"
JackScratch
22-01-04, 08:25
cromagnum = prehistoric man (not very smart)
Kreskin = entertainer who makes predictions, reads minds etc. (sarcasm, he acts like he knows me, and he doesn't.)
Originally posted by nonamebrandeggs
What is a "cromagnum" and a "Kreskin?"
Those are l337 carebear rping terms you call someone that wants to balance the game.
You know jack you say you've been playing since beta 4 but haven't requested once to have any class changed meaning you don't even care about balancing. And you want reasons why you have no idea what you're talking about? Well heres one reason http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88256. I'm mainly talking about your first post in that thread.
Originally posted by JackScratch
cromagnum = prehistoric man (not very smart)
Kreskin = entertainer who makes predictions, reads minds etc. (sarcasm, he acts like he knows me, and he doesn't.)
Now I know I'm the prehistoric man thats not very smart but I think you might want to check the spelling on those buddy;)
JackScratch
22-01-04, 08:31
Originally posted by petek480
Those are l337 carebear rping terms you call someone that wants to balance the game.
You know jack you say you've been playing since beta 4 but haven't requested once to have any class changed meaning you don't even care about balancing. And you want reasons why you have no idea what you're talking about? Well heres one reason http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88256. I'm mainly talking about your first post in that thread.
So, are you realy a crackhead, or do you just play one in NC? What is wrong with that post? My point is valid. Even if I am wrong, and I would love to see you prove that somehow, ho does that make anything I say less valueable than anything you say. So far you haven't shown that you know anything, accept that I am a CAREBEAR. Big secrete. I'm only a carebear because that is the term that the PKing morons hae come up with for anyone who doesn't aprove of PKing anywhere and everywhere all the time day and night. Why don't you try adding to this thread instead of just pounding on the keys?
nonamebrandeggs
22-01-04, 08:34
Your a fucking hypocrite, no use in talking to a hypocrite.
hypocrite hypocrite hypocrite hypocrite
Originally posted by JackScratch
So, are you realy a crackhead, or do you just play one in NC? What is wrong with that post? My point is valid. Even if I am wrong, and I would love to see you prove that somehow, ho does that make anything I say less valueable than anything you say. So far you haven't shown that you know anything, accept that I am a CAREBEAR. Big secrete. I'm only a carebear because that is the term that the PKing morons hae come up with for anyone who doesn't aprove of PKing anywhere and everywhere all the time day and night. Why don't you try adding to this thread instead of just pounding on the keys?
I don't have to prove I know anything. You're the one that started talking about how no one has any fucking clue how to balance. But now you, the person who thinks 414 is insane for a pe, seems to think you know how to balance. Now, i'm sorry but I find that a little stupid. You may say you pvp and fighting in op wars, but doing that stuff once a month hardly makes you more qualified then someone that pvps everyday.
nonamebrandeggs
22-01-04, 08:59
Looks like Jack is...
http://ceinfo.unh.edu/common/graphics/stump.jpg
STUMPED!!!
JackScratch
22-01-04, 20:42
The game is balanced, I'm not stumped, I'm just not 14 so I have a life to attend to. You want balance, try loging in, it's there. When was the last time you saw a PPU PK someone? When was the last time you saw a Tank construct? or a Monk? Balance is a level of congruencey, we can achieve it by letting KK do their damn job. Being a sup3r 1337 PKer doesn't make you an authority on balance either you tard, that's what I have been saying, these posts are stupid, because balance is a very very complicated issue. The only 2 truely unbalanced things I have ever seen are the Hybrids and the Liberator. Other than that, the game is and was balanced. People on these forums (like you) whine about shit like they know what balance is, when they clearly don't. like I said in a previous post, I have some pretty good thoughts on balance, but I have better things to do than do KKs job for them voluntarily. So why don't you go out and get some better things to do, and shut your pie hole?
Originally posted by JackScratch
The game is balanced, I'm not stumped, I'm just not 14 so I have a life to attend to. You want balance, try loging in, it's there. When was the last time you saw a PPU PK someone? When was the last time you saw a Tank construct? or a Monk? Balance is a level of congruencey, we can achieve it by letting KK do their damn job. Being a sup3r 1337 PKer doesn't make you an authority on balance either you tard, that's what I have been saying, these posts are stupid, because balance is a very very complicated issue. The only 2 truely unbalanced things I have ever seen are the Hybrids and the Liberator. Other than that, the game is and was balanced. People on these forums (like you) whine about shit like they know what balance is, when they clearly don't. like I said in a previous post, I have some pretty good thoughts on balance, but I have better things to do than do KKs job for them voluntarily. So why don't you go out and get some better things to do, and shut your pie hole?
Whatever dude theres no point argueing with you, you obviously think you know everything about the game. But if you're ever interested in seeing how balanced this game is dm my psi, pete the psi, ingame and we can have a friendly fight. Alex and me against your whole can and you'll really see how balanced this game is.
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