View Full Version : Remove Pe Stealth
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:25
Ive had it, i went to PK today. Target group PEs.
Tried my chances on 3 of em. All 3 fucking stealthers. It is just not right, that the class with the second highest defense in the game gets stealth. If a PE cant take 6-7 Hls then he is badly setup, so dont give me that shit. PEs SHOULDNT HAVE STEALTH. I hate working my ass off to bring a person down to 5% of their health and suddenly they fucking disappear out of my sight. This is too damn lame.
I agree but pking anyone with stealth is irritating but spies need the extra defence.
I can smell the flaming from judge, rade and other PE stalwarts coming already
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:30
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
I agree but pking anyone with stealth is irritating but spies need the extra defence.
I can smell the flaming from judge, rade and other PE stalwarts coming already
I said remove PE stealth. Meaning that only PEs shouldnt be able to stealth. Spies got paperbag defense, they need stealth.
And anyone who says that a PE needs stealth is clearly out of his mind.
Oh no i couldn't kill them boo hoo.
PE's = the average class. They can only access the lowest level Stealth. Thats it.
Quite moaning just because you couldn't kill them.
And saying if a PE can't take 6-7 HL's he is badly setup, have you ever thought that not everyone is capped and that not everyone wants to obide the the cookie cut character?
Maybe your badly setup because you couldn't take even one of them out.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:32
Anyone wana come and rezz me on saturn :p
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
I said remove PE stealth. Meaning that only PEs shouldnt be able to stealth. Spies got paperbag defense, they need stealth.
And anyone who says that a PE needs stealth is clearly out of his mind.
I was agreeing with you......
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:33
Originally posted by garyu69
Oh no i couldn't kill them boo hoo.
PE's = the average class. They can only access the lowest level Stealth. Thats it.
Quite moaning just because you couldn't kill them.
And saying if a PE can't take 6-7 HL's he is badly setup, have you ever thought that not everyone is capped and that not everyone wants to obide the the cookie cut character?
Maybe your badly setup because you couldn't take even one of them out.
Its not about me beingn able to kill them.
If they didnt have stealth, they would all be dead. All 3 of them capped. Noone tried to put up a decent fight, they all stealthed in and out. PEs shouldnt get a stealth tool, it should be spy only.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:35
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
I was agreeing with you......
I know you were :)
I agree. Take out stealth use for PEs and give them something else instead that the other classes cant use.
Dribble Joy
20-01-04, 15:37
Stealth 2 should not be PE, that's for sure.
Stealth 1 only lasts 10s, and can be followed with relitive ease.
I do carry a stealth tool, and I use it if I am caught off guard, but then I will come back, and when I do I go to the death, eggs killed my twice the other day, (mainly due to my shite fps and inability to aim that day :p) both fights I didn't use stealth at all.
I poke though, so dieing isn't so bad.
They should probably up the TC req on stealth one, say to 90.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:37
Originally posted by Jest
I agree. Take out stealth use for PEs and give them something else instead that the other classes cant use.
Agreed.
This is just sooo lame. Get hit once, OMG I GOTA STEALTH I AM A PE PUSSY DESPITE I GOT SHELTER I MUSTN GET DAMAGED OMG KOS !!!11!!!1oneone!!11. Either remove stealth, or set a real long reset timer especcially for low level stealth tools (make it like 30 secs or so, so that stealth can be used to escape but not in the gay way that it is used atm).
Original monk
20-01-04, 15:39
HOW ABOUT MAKING STEALTH SPY ONLY, NOW THATS A SOLUTION
Richard Slade
20-01-04, 15:39
Like Monks are the only one with heal and buffs
Tanks the only ones with armor
?
Sounds good no
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:39
Originally posted by Richard Slade
Like Monks are the only one with heal and buffs
Tanks the only ones with armor
?
Sounds good no
Come again?
Stealth is something that pe's should be able to use. we have to CAP our int to get the lowest stealth...give it a break, sheesh
TAKE AWAY STEALTH FROM PE's.
Seperate the good PE's from the SHIT PE's.
PERIOD.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
They should probably up the TC req on stealth one, say to 90.
Wont bother most PEs these days as RoLH is tc88 and RoG is about the same.
Some PEs do use stealth 2 since they drug to it and tbh stealth 1 is fine to get away with, I use that and Ive never had hassle getting away with my spy once I got stealth 1 activated.
Richard Slade
20-01-04, 15:41
Mantiz... Tyst...
For the others
PE's use the shit of the lower levels
All the shit
And 5sec stealth and much..
I mean come on
Just give them a nice leg shot and they'll be in the same place
when they come back and you'll be fine
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:42
Originally posted by Artie
Stealth is something that pe's should be able to use. we have to CAP our int to get the lowest stealth...give it a break, sheesh
Capping a PEs INT is a piece of cake. Generally capping a PE is a piece of cake but anywayz.
PEs shouldnt be able to use stealth. The only reason stealth should exist in the game is to help spies survive (totally understandable due to their low con). PEs can take the second hardest beating (next to PPUs) due to shelters and high con. They can deal pretty good damage. They dont need stealth to survive.
rare that monk cant take down a PE before he stealths.. hum.. easy to hit them with 2-3 even after they stealth if you hit them prior to said stealthing.. bah i give up.
It basically boils down to the fact that you find it harder to do your daily PK'ing on a PE when he uses stealth and that pisses you off.
Maybe next time you should load them with some fire so when they do stealth you can see them. Then Chase them. Barrell the place, anything. If you want to kill him you would try harder ;)
Originally posted by Artie
Stealth is something that pe's should be able to use. we have to CAP our int to get the lowest stealth...give it a break, sheesh
ya its realy hard to cap int on a pe,
bah i dont care my malediction kills stealthing pe's all the time :D
Originally posted by Artie
Stealth is something that pe's should be able to use. we have to CAP our int to get the lowest stealth...give it a break, sheesh
Onoz capping PE it is so hard at level 60.
Bleh
PEs have life too easy as it is they can cap in less then a days play if they have all weapons made beforehand they can use level 3 armours with 1 drug can use medium belts have access to the best pistol which is one of the best guns in game are the easiest class by far to work out resist wise can cast shelter and blessed deflector.
If theres even a mention of taking one of these advantages away or saying they are even slightly overpowered all the PEs come out flame and cry that they are JoaT and should be able to use everything and that people are whiners for saying they cant.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 15:47
Originally posted by Barak
rare that monk cant take down a PE before he stealths.. hum.. easy to hit them with 2-3 even after they stealth if you hit them prior to said stealthing.. bah i give up.
PE was buffed, with shelter up. I dont have capped psi (i am at 92 base,cant remember my HL dam% will post it l8er). I see him, HL him 4 times, he is down to about 25% health and then stealhts. He appears i hit him again, he stealths again, and zones into MB. I go in behind him, go to the GR room where he reappears from stealth (i got around 120 HP left), libby spams me and kills me. How does that combat involve skill?
Dribble Joy
20-01-04, 15:47
The only place I 'agree' with PE having stealth is in an ambush situation.
Even when buffed up, by the time a PE realises what the fuck is going on, has got his gun out and starts fighting back, they have taken about 3-4 HLs, and are down to half life. A tank or a spy has the damage output to (if they are good) fight back and kill the APU, but unless the PE has a explosive/xray libby/PE on hand they are fucked.
//Edit
Originally posted by some retard.
PEs are the easiest class by far to work out resist wise
O_o
Wow, this thread will never die and I fear my class of choice is going to take a gimp-nailed-nerf bat to the face. So, I'll do my best to exhonerate my character.
P.E.s will never have the offensive capability of a Tank or an APU Monk--ever. There is nothing in the character's repotoire that can stand up to the high level lightning/fire/whatever spells nor a properly configured CS. Also (as with the Spy), what is our essential combat-stat area--Dexterity--is stretched thin by the reqs for Tech Combat, Agility, Pistol/Rifle/Remote Control, recycling or Vehicle Skills. Both Monks and Tanks have that whole area more-or-less free for their leisure.
Tanks have all the leighway in the world when it comes to Strength. Their intelligence is nominal, so thus removes a bit of flexibility and they have Dexterity more-or-less open after its decided how fast it REALLY wants/needs to be.
Monks just worry about Intelligence and Psi stats. The rest they can screw with at their leisure.
Now, P.E.s are possibly a very powerful class because of the
combinations of things they can do. With moderate stat-caps, they can be deadly damage dealers that are fast and relatively durable. We can drive most vehicles, if we want to gimp fire-rates and/or damage. Most P.E.s I know can do a bit of recycling too.
This flexibility--and potencz--is why I LOVE playing this class, but there are undeniable realities to Neocron as a game.
1. THE POWER OF THE GROUP: if you're playing with a relatively competent group with a good mixture of classes, you can hold your own against many (perhaps not most). This means P.E.s are VERY vulnerable to group attacks, especially since they can only use 10 second cloaks. READ: halo spells, AoE and Parashocks bugger us pretty badly. Use them wisely. Oh yeah, and to really let the cat out of the bag, damage boost a P.E. sometime and let him cloak. A lot of times you might figure out what to do with that little combo.
2. Strong in most classes, but gimped in all: again, P.E.s will never be the one man gank fleet an APU monk or Tank teamed with a PPU might be.
So, the next time you want to jump a few P.E.s, grab a friend, preferably a PPU or grab a couple of friendly P.E.s. Sinead O'Connor, ChronicKanga and I used to have a good time ganking fellow stealthers. A little bit of team work went a long way we found, but at the end of the day, we generallz got our man.
Oh, and next time things don't go as planned remember: learn from your mistakes and never, ever doubt the power of Murphy's Law.
ill admit some of the shitty PE's abuse it hell id admit i used it quite often, but becuase you cant gank someone it dont mean "omg nerf nerf" try whacking a posion first then a HL so you can follow them + the damage while stealthed, not hard to kill stealthers if you think about it.
So which are easier dribble spies?
Apus?
Ppus?
Only one that I can think of that has easier resists is maybe tanks but you only get to work out resists after working your ass off to get enough con to work something out with whereas with PEs you get to work them out after 8 or 9 hours play time.
PEs seem to believe this myth that they are the hardest class to play and setup which is complete bullshit and Ive played just about every class in the game other the pistol tank and HC PE which I actually hear is a hardish class to setup becauser no medium belts.
The whole reasoning for this thread is flawed because, as usual, its someone who didn't win a fight running straight to the forums. When an experienced PE comes on here and says he is overpowered I listen (like Vet did about the RoG a long time ago), otherwise this gets classed with every other nerf thread - sour grapes.
My PPU died to a tl3 heal the other day, but I'm not going to come running on hear demanding it be removed from all other classes. Its just combat tactics we need to work with.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 16:15
OK let me rephrase it. You all say "remove para because it makes skill in battle useless" and i agree totally.
In the same way of thinking, i say "remove stealth", because it makes skill in combat useless, since even if someone works his ass off to try and kill a PE, the mofo will probably just stealth and run when he is 10% health before dying....
PE resists are and arent. To have great resists, yes - they are the easiest to setup.
To have Great resists + Great speed (110/110) + Great health (520hp fully buffed) + Cap dmg on ur weapon of choice... thats VERY hard. - Took me a year to do it.
Spies are harder to setup resist wise than PE.
APU is much harder to setup considering 3 or 4 bursts of an x ray lib can kill them
Tanks/PPU resists are pretty stright forward imo.
Combat is not all about skill, it is also about a bit of luck and a bit of tactics. Stealthing comes under tactics IMO
Originally posted by Artie
Stealth is something that pe's should be able to use. we have to CAP our int to get the lowest stealth...give it a break, sheesh didnt take me very long to cap my intel, so i dont see that as a problem.
surely your not hinting that a famed pker like yourself needs stealth to kill? :p
id like stealth taken from Pes just to show which of those PEs are good and which of them suck, cos to many of them stealth as soon as a enemy pops his gun out
Yes but to use stealth 2 the PE is by definition choosing a more moderate setup than a dedicated combat non-stealther. Hence he can run away but he won't be able to kill(or die to) you like a low-tech setup PE could.
The only exception I guess would be if the stealth 2 setup still allows the PE to maximise his offensive and defensive capabilites.
Originally posted by Selendor
The whole reasoning for this thread is flawed because, as usual, its someone who didn't win a fight running straight to the forums. When an experienced PE comes on here and says he is overpowered I listen (like Vet did about the RoG a long time ago), otherwise this gets classed with every other nerf thread - sour grapes.
My PPU died to a tl3 heal the other day, but I'm not going to come running on hear demanding it be removed from all other classes. Its just combat tactics we need to work with.
^^ Agrees Completely
Let them have stealth only have an Option under NAVRAY in the services section called "PE I can't handle and want to own", then select start and a large arrow will light up where the PE is going.
Thats for those who are unable to handle stealth. Seriously, I've seen people follow my stealth character (whos not a PE incidently) for ages and kill with ease using AOE effects.
Originally posted by Archeus
Let them have stealth only have an Option under NAVRAY in the services section called "PE I can't handle and want to own", then select start and a large arrow will light up where the PE is going.
Thats for those who are unable to handle stealth. Seriously, I've seen people follow my stealth character (whos not a PE incidently) for ages and kill with ease using AOE effects.
I've never had much of a problem following them.
My APU's con setup needs a lot of work and I'm to lazy to LoM at the moment, so I'm more worried when they're not stealthed :p
Neocron Comunity Script:
step 1: nerf PPUs
step 2: nerf APUs
step 3: nerf Hybrids
step 4: nerf PEs
step 5: nerf Tanks
step 6: nerf Spies
step 7: nerf anything that hasn't been nerfed yet
goto step 1.
nuff said.
//Radium
1. If you cant follow the PE when he is stealthed for about 7 seconds then you need to adapt.
2. If you dont know the concept of using fire, poison, or even parashock then learn.
3. If you still cant kill the PE then choose a different class to try to pk.
If you dont like the stealth then deal with it, its all the PEs really have against multiple foes.
Surely it just means that along with your skills , you have to apply a little forward thinking and assume that if its a PE it WILL stealth.
Get this out of the way with your first attack ( with your visible attack of choice ) and then take the fight to them.
Raised INT-requirements of stealthtools by 5 and adjusted the duration of stealth effects to 10/20/30/60 seconds. This is meant to make it a little bit harder for the PE to get stealth (but not impossible).
Direct from Patch 223 on the test server. :D
Originally posted by wolfwood
If you dont like the stealth then deal with it, its all the PEs really have against multiple foes.
Then why doesn't the Tank have something for use against multiple enemies?
The question has to be asked - if PEs are really JOATs and therefore able to use stealth, why do they have the highest defence of any combat class?
Originally posted by retr0n
Neocron Comunity Script:
step 1: nerf PPUs
step 2: nerf APUs
step 3: nerf Hybrids
step 4: nerf PEs
step 5: nerf Spies
step 6: nerf anything that hasn't been nerfed yet apart from tanks
goto step 1.
nuff said.
//Radium i took the librety of changing your comments alittle:p
Originally posted by ezza
i took the librety of changing your comments alittle:p
heheh :) but seriously, something is really getting wrong with
this community... i know it's always been lots of nerf thread but
wtf, lately there is like 50 / day...
Is there nobody with programming skills out there that can make
a nerf-post-counter for me to put in my sig, like the one that counts
how many players are online right now?
Instead of crying out for a nerf, cant you cry for something else for
your class to use against a certain strategy?
In one year time this game will have gone so much to hell that nobody,
and i mean nobody, will be able to kill anybody unless they are
afk/fre... and that will be sooooo muuuuch fuuuun...
//Radium
Well, fact is, if I ask for hybrids to be nerfed (for example), then they'll be nerfed oncee the community backs it. If I say, tanks need a rare gat cannon, 75% of the community ignores it, and the remaining 25% of the community say their class needs a rare gat first. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Scikar
Well, fact is, if I ask for hybrids to be nerfed (for example), then they'll be nerfed oncee the community backs it. If I say, tanks need a rare gat cannon, 75% of the community ignores it, and the remaining 25% of the community say their class needs a rare gat first. :rolleyes:
that's because the commuity is stupid.
//Radium
100% agree here, PE's using stealth are just pathetic, its a spy tool for them to use to get away and use their range, not for lamers to over use without any side effects, what happened to the suposed drug effect after using it a few times? why not some synaptic after each stealth for 4% ???
nah of course not, a PE with a top setup is better defense than a Tank with 100 CON, only the PPU has better with their buffs, and yet a PE can run away and stealth up, load of bollocks IMHO.
Its like holy heal, waste your time smacking someone over the head for 2 mins only to almost kill them, oh wait a ppu arrives, one heal, ok lets start again, hitting, rinse repeat untill you die or run out of ammo, the game is messed up.
Get rid of stealthing PE's ffs, or fix it so they can't repeat stealth insta
Shadow Dancer
20-01-04, 17:30
Pes should get stealth for recon and passing by unseen. NOT for escaping a battle just because their close to dying. I think that is so lame. PEs don't have the shitty defense to justify using stealth as a nice easy quick escape. Now here's what I suggest as a fix.
Double the time of all stealth. Or double and a half. Now you know that delay when you choose a stealth tool? it's like 1-2 seconds long, THEN u can stealth. I propose that that delay be much longer, so that you can't just use it when ur near death. That way they still get stealth for spying or sneaking or passing by.
But the whole "omg let me attack this monk/tank. Omg he's pwning me let me quickly stealth away" thing is bullshit.
If you can't kill a PE with stealth then how about you get some skills? All the classes who can't stealth have a way of killing stealthers so stfu with your whining and try to adapt.
Instead of nerfing PEs how about we boost Tanks and Spies by increasing AoE damage and giving spies an eye/tool/something which can be used so that they can see past and can target stealthers.
Make more counters, rather than just nerfing it :rolleyes:
The latest testserver patch just raised the Int reqs on all Stealths by 5.... just a FYI.
here's an idea....MAYBE htey didn't WANT to fight! Maybe they had BETTER things to do than get ganked by an APU and have to get repoked, etc.
If I'm trying to level, and someone starts shit, yer damn right I stealth. I've got better things to do than amuse the PKar d00ds.
I far prefer to fight a stealthing PE than a freakin sniping spy who as soon as you spot him stealths away to snipe from somewhere else. Man that pisses me off....
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 18:50
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
here's an idea....MAYBE htey didn't WANT to fight! Maybe they had BETTER things to do than get ganked by an APU and have to get repoked, etc.
If I'm trying to level, and someone starts shit, yer damn right I stealth. I've got better things to do than amuse the PKar d00ds.
I far prefer to fight a stealthing PE than a freakin sniping spy who as soon as you spot him stealths away to snipe from somewhere else. Man that pisses me off....
First of all noone was trying to level (i doubt that level 60 PEs are leveling off cyclopses). Second, have you ever heard of ANYONE that asks before he shoots?? Come on......PvP is part of the game, if you dont like it stick your LE in noob....(ARG THE VETTEROX INSIDE MEH!!!!).
@Judge, i am sorry but if you manage to die by AoE while stealthed maybe YOU should get some skills instead.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
@Judge, i am sorry but if you manage to die by AoE while stealthed maybe YOU should get some skills instead.
When you are stealthing on low health then AoE does hurt. Additionally I wasn't actually talking about AoE hmm? I was refering to the poison attacks that both the Tank and the monks have, or the parashock that PPUs/hybrids have.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
PE was buffed, with shelter up. I dont have capped psi (i am at 92 base,cant remember my HL dam% will post it l8er). I see him, HL him 4 times, he is down to about 25% health and then stealhts. He appears i hit him again, he stealths again, and zones into MB. I go in behind him, go to the GR room where he reappears from stealth (i got around 120 HP left), libby spams me and kills me. How does that combat involve skill?
Well, for a start, not many people know when to run away in a fight they can't win. He did, changed the situation and you followed not realising he would then win. It's got far more skill than the point-click interface of an apu fight... :eek:
A PE is JACK OF ALL TRADES !!!
stealth - spy
shelter - monk(ppu)
guns/armor - tanks
I dont see why ppl think they need to cry over a very short stealth.
<casts Crahn Holy Tissue on all the crybabies>
damn some of u ppl cry about everything why not learn to play better instead and use your class more efficiently..instead of whining and hoping your char is boosted and and other ppls chars are nerfed.
Originally posted by Krunky
A PE is JACK OF ALL TRADES !!!
Actually it's "Jack of all trades and master of none" is the full title. (Joatamon, got to catch them all :p )
Originally posted by Judge
If you can't kill a PE with stealth then how about you get some skills? All the classes who can't stealth have a way of killing stealthers so stfu with your whining and try to adapt.
Instead of nerfing PEs how about we boost Tanks and Spies by increasing AoE damage and giving spies an eye/tool/something which can be used so that they can see past and can target stealthers.
Make more counters, rather than just nerfing it :rolleyes:
OK, I want a heat seeking rocket launcher which tracks stealthed PEs, because their larger body mass means they generate more body heat than puny spies. Honestly, you PEs are just as bad as the old hybrids. "We do still die, it's just nobody out there has our l33t skillz and they don't know how to kill us properly." :rolleyes:
Why do PEs deserve to be difficult to kill exactly? I ask again, why do PEs, the JACK OF ALL TRADES, have the highest defence of any combat class, and have stealth on top?
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 21:33
Originally posted by Judge
When you are stealthing on low health then AoE does hurt. Additionally I wasn't actually talking about AoE hmm? I was refering to the poison attacks that both the Tank and the monks have, or the parashock that PPUs/hybrids have.
Tank poison attacks are not viable for this use, since each stack lasts very very little time.
Monk poison can be instantly countered with a drug (which most people carry in belt or inv, if they dont, they shouldnt whine about poison being overpowered).
Same applies for parashock.
Originally posted by Scikar
OK, I want a heat seeking rocket launcher which tracks stealthed PEs, because their larger body mass means they generate more body heat than puny spies. Honestly, you PEs are just as bad as the old hybrids. "We do still die, it's just nobody out there has our l33t skillz and they don't know how to kill us properly." :rolleyes: [/B]
Oh yeah, obviously thats what we all think... yeah lets fuck over the other classes by being stuck up little tossers... oh yeah and we all think that it is only we that have "leet skillz" look fucking get over it, hardly any PEs fall into your sterotype hybrid mentality.
Originally posted by Scikar
Why do PEs deserve to be difficult to kill exactly? I ask again, why do PEs, the JACK OF ALL TRADES, have the highest defence of any combat class, and have stealth on top?
Because, whatever you think, we have the worst offence. And whatever you think PEs with 10 second stealth who set out to kill you are not very hard to kill.
The PE isnt a JOAT even if its intended to be. After fighting countless PEs who stealth away from fights and think they are the shit, Im gonna have to agree that stealth be limited or taken away. I think the +5 int req is a nice first step (even though I think it caters to players with an SA). We'll see though. Its nice to see a non-hammer change.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 21:56
Originally posted by Jest
The PE isnt a JOAT even if its intended to be. After fighting countless PEs who stealth away from fights and think they are the shit, Im gonna have to agree that stealth be limited or taken away. I think the +5 int req is a nice first step (even though I think it caters to players with an SA). We'll see though. Its nice to see a non-hammer change.
Another good suggestion would be to add dual requirments for the stealth.
One requirement would be the same as it is now, but spy only.
The other would be the same as it is now, but with all TC numbers increased by 10 or so.
Thus a spy could keep his setup, but if a PE wants stealth he would have to either a)reduce his weapon effiecieny (less PC/RC=more TC) or b)reduce his speed (less agil=more TC). If said PE wanted to keep his speed he would have to overspec athl, and thus reduce his resists. So 4 possible combinations come up.
1)Normal PE (No stealth)
2)Stealth PE with gimped attack power
3)Stealth PE with gimped speed
4)Stealth PE with gimped resists.
What do you think?
Originally posted by Judge
Because, whatever you think, we have the worst offence. And whatever you think PEs with 10 second stealth who set out to kill you are not very hard to kill.
I have never denied PEs' limited offense. But you keep missing the point - how can a JOAT have the highest defence of any combat class? And then, you have stealth on top? You don't seem to get it. Low offense + high defence = fair enough. But what do you then need stealth for?
@Jest: It's been the same for the last 6 months. PEs are JOATs when it suits them, and specialists when that's better.
Finally, @Judge: Explain why PEs deserve to be able to run away from combat, yet Tanks and APUs do not.
Stealth is part of their defence.
They might not "deserve" to run away, but it depends on how you think of that. So you want everyone to have exactly the same playstyle, just be slightly different from other classes. So the PEs would be a mini tank with less offence and more defence. Yeah wow thats really interesting hmm?
PEs are JOATs when it suits them, and specialists when that's better.
Thats what people do to us. Whenever we ask for our own shit they say "OMG NO they are JOATS" but whever we want to have better offence, whatever they say "OMG NO you obviously specialise because you can take part in combat with other specialised classes." You think we enjoy that sort of threatment? No, so I'm doing it back to you all.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:09
Originally posted by Judge
Stealth is part of their defence.
They might not "deserve" to run away, but it depends on how you think of that. So you want everyone to have exactly the same playstyle, just be slightly different from other classes. So the PEs would be a mini tank with less offence and more defence. Yeah wow thats really interesting hmm?
Thats what people do to us. Whenever we ask for our own shit they say "OMG NO they are JOATS" but whever we want to have better offence, whatever they say "OMG NO you obviously specialise because you can take part in combat with other specialised classes." You think we enjoy that sort of threatment? No, so I'm doing it back to you all.
You say htat they do not deserve to run away. But they do. They have an unfair advantage in battle. An advantage understandable for the spy class, but not for the combat-class with the BEST defence in the game. And yes it would interesting if most PEs would actually put up a fair fight, and not stealth and run when they get hit....
And i am not even going to comment on the "attitude" issue...
Originally posted by Judge
Stealth is part of their defence.
They might not "deserve" to run away, but it depends on how you think of that. So you want everyone to have exactly the same playstyle, just be slightly different from other classes. So the PEs would be a mini tank with less offence and more defence. Yeah wow thats really interesting hmm?
If you really knew what you were talking about, then you wouldn't have said that, because you would know that a PE who knows what he is doing has more defence than a Tank without stealth. Show me a Tank who can survive 3 full CS clips, 15 bursts, 60 individual shots, because I can show you PEs who can.
Thats what people do to us. Whenever we ask for our own shit they say "OMG NO they are JOATS" but whever we want to have better offence, whatever they say "OMG NO you obviously specialise because you can take part in combat with other specialised classes." You think we enjoy that sort of threatment? No, so I'm doing it back to you all.
And you still haven't learnt your lesson, have you? You can't be both a specialist and a JOAT. If you try to argue both lines, you'll just get beaten down.
Originally posted by Scikar
If you really knew what you were talking about, then you wouldn't have said that, because you would know that a PE who knows what he is doing has more defence than a Tank without stealth. Show me a Tank who can survive 3 full CS clips, 15 bursts, 60 individual shots, because I can show you PEs who can.[/B]
You're missing the point entirely. Without stealth you can gain a huge amount more defences than with because of the extra points needed in tech combat. Oh so you are threatening me with "not knowing what I'm talking about" oh diddums, I know my class well thanks very much. The point is not that a PE can take more than a tank with or without stealth the point is that with stealth the PE can either have better resists overall or can defend against certain things, like CS bursts better.
Originally posted by Scikar
And you still haven't learnt your lesson, have you? You can't be both a specialist and a JOAT. If you try to argue both lines, you'll just get beaten down. [/B]
Duh! Thats the point of my protest. They want to redefine my class whenver it suits them then i will too.
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 22:24
There are no JOATs in neocron.
This whole damned thread is stupid.
Including;
PE Resists are easy.
PEs are JOATs.
APU Resists are hard.
Spy Resists are hard.
APUs should be able to kill PEs easy (I don't care how you sugar coat it this is what this thread is about, because an APU that gets the drop on a PE sees dead PEs, PERIOD, PE vs APU is *BARELY* Balanced when PEs are fully healed and ready for it with Shelter up and PvP armor on and artifact weaponry FFS).
Classic example of why so many people quit - not because the game's unbalanced, but because people are retarded enough to not see a) there is balance b) that there are tactics for everything.
I mean.
I doubt our wonderful topic started even THOUGHT to poison the PE first :rolleyes:
This is a joke completely.
Totally and utterly moronic I think Fang had the only decent points out of the lot.
FYI I do and always did, back the no stealth for PEs movement.
But for god sakes there are better ways to go about things than a topic of, and most of the posts in, this thread.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:27
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
There are no JOATs in neocron.
This whole damned thread is stupid.
Including;
PE Resists are easy.
PEs are JOATs.
APU Resists are hard.
Spy Resists are hard.
APUs should be able to kill PEs easy (I don't care how you sugar coat it this is what this thread is about, because an APU that gets the drop on a PE sees dead PEs, PERIOD, PE vs APU is *BARELY* Balanced when PEs are fully healed and ready for it with Shelter up and PvP armor on and artifact weaponry FFS).
Classic example of why so many people quit - not because the game's unbalanced, but because people are retarded enough to not see a) there is balance b) that there are tactics for everything.
I mean.
I doubt our wonderful topic started even THOUGHT to poison the PE first :rolleyes:
This is a joke completely.
Totally and utterly moronic I think Fang had the only decent points out of the lot.
FYI I do and always did, back the no stealth for PEs movement.
But for god sakes there are better ways to go about things than a topic of, and most of the posts in, this thread.
Got poison, use antidotes!!!!Thats what most people do!!!!!
BTW where did u pop up from?
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 22:31
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Got poison, use antidotes!!!!Thats what most people do!!!!!
BTW where did u pop up from? I'm everywhere :p
Use antidotes....you know what combining stealth with drugging does? lol...........................
So now I know you didn't use poison on'em.
edit;
Either that or you can't aim at people df'd beyond belief dude...
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:33
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I'm everywhere :p
Use antidotes....you know what combining stealth with drugging does? lol...........................
So now I know you didn't use poison on'em.
edit;
Either that or you can't aim at people df'd beyond belief dude...
I lost my poison 3 days ago, got Pked while leveling.
Cant be arsed to replace it :p.
But still, lets say i did poison em. Gave em 5-6 stacks right? Thats about 120 damage or so? They stealth, same shit goes on. Instead of getting the instant damage HL gives, they now get it over time. Whats the difference?
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
I lost my poison 3 days ago, got Pked while leveling.
Cant be arsed to replace it :p.
Thats not the PE classes fault... the fact that you lost your poison doens't mean that PEs should be nerfed because you couldn't poisen them
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
But still, lets say i did poison em. Gave em 5-6 stacks right? Thats about 120 damage or so? They stealth, same shit goes on. Instead of getting the instant damage HL gives, they now get it over time. Whats the difference?
They stealth... have to stop to chug the drug, allowing you to pinpoint exactly where they are because of the green bobbles coming out of them. Then you can follow them because you are now close enough to see the spinny haze thing. They come out of the stealth drug flashed, one antidote down and with 1/2 health.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:42
Originally posted by Judge
They stealth... have to stop to chug the drug, allowing you to pinpoint exactly where they are because of the green bobbles coming out of them. Then you can follow them because you are now close enough to see the spinny haze thing. They come out of the stealth drug flashed, one antidote down and with 1/2 health.
They dont have to stop to chug the drug, a person has more than 1 fingers and thus can push more than 1 buttons at the same time. Furthermore the spinning haze isnt particularly easy to detect or track, especially considering the totally FUBAR client-server communication this game has.
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 22:47
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
They dont have to stop to chug the drug, a person has more than 1 fingers and thus can push more than 1 buttons at the same time. Furthermore the spinning haze isnt particularly easy to detect or track, especially considering the totally FUBAR client-server communication this game has.
Typical PE PvP(Let alone PvM :rolleyes: ) quick belt;
Slot 1, Weapon.
Slot 2, Weapon or Stealth. (Was always a BS for me)
Slot 3, Stealth,
Slot 4, Deflector/Blessed Deflector,
Slot 5, Shelter,
Slot 6, Heal,
Slot 7, BR2,
Slot 8, PC/RC 1,
Slot 9, Spy 1,
Slot 10, STA Booster 2/DB/Heal Sanctum/anti-*
THERE'S NO ROOM!!
We're not all APUs and can rely on one single weapon (your beloved HL .... oh wait, that failed you .....uhh :p shouldn't depend on one thing, always makes you easy to beat)
PROVIDING that they're VERY quick in tabbing open their inventory, they have a CHANCE of getting away from you.
If they are not that quick they will reappear near enough to you in a few seconds and die promptly.
If they do not drug, you will be able to follow the poison whereever it may go.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:52
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Typical PE PvP(Let alone PvM :rolleyes: ) quick belt;
Slot 1, Weapon.
Slot 2, Weapon or Stealth. (Was always a BS for me)
Slot 3, Stealth,
Slot 4, Deflector/Blessed Deflector,
Slot 5, Shelter,
Slot 6, Heal,
Slot 7, BR2,
Slot 8, PC/RC 1,
Slot 9, Spy 1,
Slot 10, STA Booster 2/DB/Heal Sanctum/anti-*
THERE'S NO ROOM!!
We're not all APUs and can rely on one single weapon (your beloved HL .... oh wait, that failed you .....uhh :p shouldn't depend on one thing, always makes you easy to beat)
PROVIDING that they're VERY quick in tabbing open their inventory, they have a CHANCE of getting away from you.
If they are not that quick they will reappear near enough to you in a few seconds and die promptly.
If they do not drug, you will be able to follow the poison whereever it may go.
Ehm...why the heck do you need long buffs in your inventory???
Just open em up and drag em in when you need them.
And i dont usually count on one spell, my QB usually consists of
1)HL
2)Poison
3)FA
4)PSIbooster3
5)Psibooster3
6)StaminaBooster
7)Antishock
8)Antidote
9)Antidote
0)Medpack or antidote
Just keep those long buffs in ur inventory and *puff* 3 new slots waiting for drugs.
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 22:54
It's just not practicle, unless you Stealth away first OMFG WTF HAX STEALTH :rolleyes: .......................................
stealth should be spy only nuff said about that
oh and my PE belt was always alot different...
1) Weapon
2) Heal
3) Stam
4) Stam
5) Stam
6) Antishock
7) Antishock
8) Shelter
9) Deflector
10) Resist/Pistol/Spy Boosters (SWAP)
wont see a stealth tool in my hightech pe's belt nuff said
ill leave teh pussy styles of hte stealth tool to them good 'ol mercs that are definately NOT scared of using it lol
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 22:56
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's just not practicle, unless you Stealth away first OMFG WTF HAX STEALTH :rolleyes: .......................................
No, recast long buffs when combat ends. A long buff wont save your life (at least thats what everyone told me when they flamed me at another thread).
My quickbelt:
1) Libby
2) Pistol 1
3) Heal
4) Basic 2
5) Shelter
6) Heal Sanctum
7) Spy 1
8) Hack tool
9) Stam boosters
0) Anti-shock
There is no room for anti-poison, especially if I am doing PvM when I don't really expect to get attacked, and I don't even have to use a bloody stealth tool. If I did then I wouldn't have room for anti-shock either.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
No, recast long buffs when combat ends. A long buff wont save your life (at least thats what everyone told me when they flamed me at another thread).
Well let me see.. my long buffs add on +15 htl +15 poison +3 agility +5 pistol. Those are VERY likely to save my ass if I'm trying to get away from someone with poison.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 23:03
Originally posted by Judge
My quickbelt:
1) Libby
2) Pistol 1
3) Heal
4) Basic 2
5) Shelter
6) Heal Sanctum
7) Spy 1
8) Hack tool
9) Stam boosters
0) Anti-shock
There is no room for anti-poison, especially if I am doing PvM when I don't really expect to get attacked, and I don't even have to use a bloody stealth tool. If I did then I wouldn't have room for anti-shock either.
Remove your long buffs from your belt. You do not need them!!! FFS they last 10 min each. The only long buff that has a slight excuse of being there is the resist buff, the rest just slightly affect weapon efficiency. And you dont need a hacktool in ur QB either. Just pull it out when you want to hack a belt.
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 23:04
Ehh, you're tellin me these PEs were fully buffed, knew you were comin, right?
me?
If I'm not constantly self buffin, get snuck up on.
IT ALWAYS happens.
"bwahhaa.....QD is about to get jumped...ok buffs....ready? 3........(player jumps out to attack QD) 2.......... (QD shoots back......) 1............. (buffs out heal up and pray) " ....Gyah :p
Normally including SD since I recast S/D/BRX/PC1/Spy1 at almost the same time every time so they all run out at the ten minute mark together :p
edit;
If the "long" buffs were put back to their 15 minute time length I would probably consider taking them off my belt but as it is ten minutes in the world of neocron (ten min our time) is not long enough for me :p
edit for judge's edit;
on PEs I would say primary buffs DO count, they're about the only class it does (Spies somewhat), some of my best PE setups just don't function without buffs.
Anything that doesn't depend on prims as a PE will be somewhat inferior to one that does and since everyone knows I, like Vett and the other good PEs push my character to "optimum" performance, not for "a day in the park" - I minmax to depend on buffs.
shodanjr_gr
20-01-04, 23:07
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Ehh, you're tellin me these PEs were fully buffed, knew you were comin, right?
me?
If I'm not constantly self buffin, get snuck up on.
IT ALWAYS happens.
"bwahhaa.....QD is about to get jumped...ok buffs....ready? 3........(player jumps out to attack QD) 2.......... (QD shoots back......) 1............. (buffs out heal up and pray) " ....Gyah :p
Normally including SD since I recast S/D/BRX/PC1/Spy1 at almost the same time every time so they all run out at the ten minute mark together :p
edit;
If the "long" buffs were put back to their 15 minute time length I would probably consider taking them off my belt but as it is ten minutes in the world of neocron (ten min our time) is not long enough for me :p
Well all 3 of those PEs obviously werent noobs, because they all had s/d running. But as i said, there is no need to recast spy1/pc1 in mid combat, you dont really need its bonuses. BR2 i can accept (due to increased resists) but not PC/SPY buffs. Remove those two, and put 2 antidotes in their place...
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 23:10
Here's another question;
Why'd you run around with antidotes on your belt in the middle of no where?
Unless it's an op fight - then it's not ganking, is it?
Unless you were ganking, then you don't need antidote's on your belt to run around :p
And if you went 3v1 vs anyone of the calibur I'm used to facing up against they wouldn't NEED stealth you'd have been dead anyway.
o_O
Btw;
There are setups that depend on the TC from PC1.
Spy 1 for the AGL for runspeed always good...
PC Bonus can occasionally (at certain parts of the PC 1xx scale) make HUGE differences in primarily damage but sometimes RoF too.
@ Shodan
Firstly, stop attemtping to tell me and QD how to play PEs.
Secondly, you do realise the difference that 5 pistol combat can make right?
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Agreed.
This is just sooo lame.
I consider monk aim and maxdamage in one class lame too... No one cares...
QuantumDelta
20-01-04, 23:26
Originally posted by Egeon
I consider monk aim and maxdamage in one class lame too... No one cares... Shadow Dancer backs your oppinion.
Originally posted by Judge
Secondly, you do realise the difference that 5 pistol combat can make right?
He's not telling you not to use it, to swap it out when your done, it only takes a second to cast and another to swap out. The only time I keep buffs in my QB is when I am looking after others.
As for poison, sort your inventory or put it in your QB. Or wear a poison belt, or spec poison.
No, he was saying that there is no point in casting it mid combat compared to something like shelter or deflector, thus keep it in the inventory where it doesn't matter if you can't cast it whilst hiding or something. Pistol Boost 1 > Deflector :)
shodanjr_gr
21-01-04, 00:47
Originally posted by Judge
No, he was saying that there is no point in casting it mid combat compared to something like shelter or deflector, thus keep it in the inventory where it doesn't matter if you can't cast it whilst hiding or something. Pistol Boost 1 > Deflector :)
Éf pistol boos1 > Deflector, then remove your deflector from ur qb. As i have been told by this community countless times, you can expect everything to be handled to you in a golden plate. Fix your QB to compensate for the poison threat.
PEs have it way too easy at the moment. Anyone can make one, cap him in under a week and make one of those uber lame cookie cutter stealther setups, and feel uber, while he is actually giving everyone a headache with his gay stealthing shit.
shodanjr_gr
21-01-04, 00:56
Originally posted by Egeon
I consider monk aim and maxdamage in one class lame too... No one cares...
Hm...lets see...monks got insta-aim and maxdamage, i agree on that. Now what they dont have:
->Stealth
->Shields
->Heals
->Self Buffs
->Decent Force Resists
A monk can be killed in about 5 liberator burts. His only chance of being PvP effective, is to dish out a decent ammount of damage in the time it takes to kill him. Thats why he has auto aim and a very large damage output. Else there would be no point in making a monk.
Now PEs have:
->Shields
->Decent Armor
->Self buffs
->Damage boost
->Lots of con (tricky to set up though)
All the above make em the best combat class in the game defense wise, able to withstand extreme amounts of punishment.
What a PE doesnt have:
->Good damage output
->Easy aim (on some weapons though, cause others are a piece of cake to aim *cough*RoG/Blacksun*cough*)
So their damage output may be low, but it can be greatly enhanced through damage boost. Their longlivety on the battlefield is really impressive, and a PE will always out last a monk when under fire by a long long time. He has the ability to heal damage if he escapes fire for a few seconds. And since he is able to survive for a long time, he can do more damage...
Give me a heal and some basic shields, and u can take my APUs instaaim away at any time!!!!
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Éf pistol boos1 > Deflector, then remove your deflector from ur qb. As i have been told by this community countless times, you can expect everything to be handled to you in a golden plate. Fix your QB to compensate for the poison threat.
PEs have it way too easy at the moment. Anyone can make one, cap him in under a week and make one of those uber lame cookie cutter stealther setups, and feel uber, while he is actually giving everyone a headache with his gay stealthing shit.
Check again, there is no deflector in my quickbelt.
The cookie cutter setups are shit, belive me I know... I used to have one. Then I made my own setup and it is alot better than cookie cutter setups I have found. People like Kittana Blade on Saturn have severely cool and original setups which are pretty damn uber.
@shodan_jr:
A monk can be killed in about 5 liberator burts. His only chance of being PvP effective, is to dish out a decent ammount of damage in the time it takes to kill him.
An unprepared PE as as fast dead as an unprepared monk. Only difference is that a PE doesn't need a PPU to make him really deadly. Therefore a APU with a PPU is far more effective than a PE with a PPU.
What you say is that a prepared PE (shelter/def/buffs etc) is really deadly. That is absolutely true, but unprepared they're only half that good.
Easy aim
only true if you use rolh/bs. BS is ok, but I hate rolh setup without SA, therefore I went back to liberator setup. And I can tell you that liberator aim is really really bad compared to rolh/BS, Speedgatling aim is far easier and more stable, and thats a cannon o_O .
So their damage output may be low, but it can be greatly enhanced through damage boost.
True, but there is a anti drug and I won't be able to recast DB in midfight. PPUs have Catharsis, APUs/Tanks/Spys/PEs the Drug, so it's only a matter of experience to pop it in at the right time...
Their longlivety on the battlefield is really impressive
It is, but consider the fact that you don't really need a PE at a fight (op fight e.g.) but Monks. Sure stealth PEs are annoying, but their longevity doesn't make a difference if the fight is already lost. Sure he can get away or keep the enemy busy, but he won't change the outcome if his team is already dead an he's still alive.
And at last: If a Stealth PE keeps you busy there always is Truesight ... and with the new TS Patch PEs no longer will use Stealth 2, so I don't see a problem to find them with Truesight as he has to get very near to you to "keep you busy". Freeze him. DB him while Truesight running and the "PE Stealth problem is done".
Lifewaster
21-01-04, 03:32
Originally posted by Egeon
An unprepared PE as as fast dead as an unprepared monk. Only difference is that a PE doesn't need a PPU to make him really deadly. Therefore a APU with a PPU is far more effective than a PE with a PPU.
What you say is that a prepared PE (shelter/def/buffs etc) is really deadly. That is absolutely true, but unprepared they're only half that good.
Hmmm, and you dont think perhaps its a bit easier for a PE to "prepare" himself ? how hard is it to keep long buffs on yourself casting once every 10 minutes? recast shelter every 2 minutes? Thats not exactly rocket science for a PE to become "prepared"
Compare that to an apu monk ...... who is on his own ? what exactly can he do to "prepare" ?
Its nonsence to suggest that the two class have an equal chance to "prepare" when one has self buffs and the other requires a complete additional player in addition to himself. And in fact with stealth the PE doesnt even have to bother keeping on self buffs, he can just stealth when attacked, run off, then self buff and return when he is good and ready.
We heard this argument too when the uber hybrids were roaming the game, how it wasnt unbalanced because all you needed was 2 other monks to have an equal chance against the one hybrid ?
Think a bit more on what you wrote maybe.
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 03:37
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Hmmm, and you dont think perhaps its a bit easier for a PE to "prepare" himself ? how hard is it to keep long buffs on yourself casting once every 10 minutes? recast shelter every 2 minutes? Thats not exactly rocket science for a PE to become "prepared"
Compare that to an apu monk ...... who is on his own ? what exactly can he do to "prepare" ?
Its nonsence to suggest that the two class have an equal chance to "prepare" when one has self buffs and the other requires a complete additional player in addition to himself. And in fact with stealth the PE doesnt even have to bother keeping on self buffs, he can just stealth when attacked, run off, then self buff and return when he is good and ready.
We heard this argument too when the uber hybrids were roaming the game, how it wasnt unbalanced because all you needed was 2 other monks to have an equal chance against the one hybrid ?
Think a bit more on what you wrote maybe.
You are really honestly stupid enough to comment about balance once preperation time is complete with this comparison?
I mean seriously.
Most GOOD APUs will tell you PEs that are buffed are equal game for them, some will even tell you the majority of PEs are easy targets when buffed.
I think maybe you should think a bit more about WHAT YOU WROTE.
God said Love thy noobs, otherwise there wouldn't be people under you -_-
Lifewaster
21-01-04, 03:43
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You are really honestly stupid enough to comment about balance once preperation time is complete with this comparison?
Explain then, when an APU is alone against a PE, what he does in this "preperation time" , fill his belt with medkits ?
Your trying to justify a 1 v 1 unbalance on grounds that it can be overcome by adding additional players to the mix.
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 03:46
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Explain then, when an APU is alone against a PE, what he does in this "preperation time" , fill his belt with medkits ?
Your trying to justify a 1 v 1 unbalance on grounds that it can be overcome by adding additional players to the mix.
An APU doesn't need this preperation time, this is exactly my point.
WITHOUT Preperation an APU is AUTOMATICALLY Equal to a Good PE WHO IS PREPAIRED providing the APU has semi-decent resists and a semi-decent PSI configuration.
I seriously cannot believe you see that as "APUs are weaker."
Which was the tone of your original post.
Seriously.....
If your view is otherwise you are obviously either;
A) A BAD APU,
B) Trying to kill PEs that are FAR too good for you.
Take your pick.
Lifewaster
21-01-04, 03:55
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
WITHOUT Preperation an APU is AUTOMATICALLY Equal to a Good PE WHO IS PREPAIRED providing the APU has semi-decent resists and a semi-decent PSI configuration.
Read again what you wrote....
You just admit, by your own mouth, that a "prepared" PE is equal to any APU anytime.......
Now add to the mix, an ability for the PE to turn invisible and disengage from any fight with an APU when he doesnt happen to be "prepared"
Thus according to you, a APU can never beat a stealth PE of equal ability.
Add in the fact that PE's and APU are never always going to be "prepared"
So you get multiple PE/APU encounters, sometimes the PE begins on top, sometimes the APU does....before stealth...that player would have won....now with stealth , should the PE be the player who WOULD have lost , he can simply stealth and end the engagement.
Thus the APU still lose the fights they would have lost, and cannot win the fight they would have won....
Net result.....the good PE's are the only winners.
Now how on earth is that balanced ?
Psycho Killa
21-01-04, 03:59
Use aoe spells. Use Holy multi lightning use this use that. Stealth is getting a tweak on the test server lets see how that goes before we go all crazy.
If the pe can get away from your in 10 seconds then tough shit for you. The pe I do agree should not be able to stealth on and off forever.
Stealth should be only used for getting the drop on someone and a 10 seconds chance to escape. If you cant get away in those 10 seconds you deserve to die.
Shadow Dancer
21-01-04, 04:02
Buffed pe is equal to unbuffed apu. In terms of 1v1 IMO.
I do think the balance is in favor of pes though, because of piercing(especially uranium modded) and stealth. But if apus got a rare poison beam, that would be cool and I would consider them equal. :D
That's 1v1 btw. Apu>Pe in op wars
Anyhow my point is, it's silly to say a pe can prepare himself with buffs and whatnot, because he NEEDS that to be able to compete.
EDIT: I dislike pes for stealth. I think they don't deserve to escape a fight they are engaged in(i'm not talking about being ganked and running away, I mean fighting back), ESPECIALLY if they started it.
QD had an idea that you couldn't stealth if you were below a certain % of HP. I think that's a great ass idea. They can still keep their stealth, but it'll be balanced for them.
sex
Psycho Killa
21-01-04, 04:06
Im all for a rare poisin beam maybe then these jackasses would realize that you have to spec for poisin and be somewhat weaker against cs etc. Or have 0 poisin and be strong against Cs etc.
Onoz WTf i gots to choose between 4 resists now?? lolz no way!
By the way i plan to have atleast 70 poisin resist on my pe and I still have good defense against everything else this is with a hightech pe mind you who has to still spec in athletics.
The health percentage idea is cool with me also.
Stealth shouldnt be removed from pe's it should be balanced. Ill be happy as long as I can use it to sneak up on people once in a great while.
Lifewaster
21-01-04, 04:07
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Anyhow my point is, it's silly to say a pe can prepare himself with buffs and whatnot, because he NEEDS that to be able to compete.
Its so funny so see you guys dismissing the ability of the PE to self buff as just "something that he needs to do" , and not something that he would have by default...... while on the other hand , in the gazillion nerf the ppu threads you make, its always assumed the PPU has every buff under the sun always running, heal sanctums catharsis sanctums and holy heals galore.....all up and running all the time.
Yet for me to suggest a PE would do such a thing normally is somehow wrong in your eyes....
Just a thing to think about I guess?
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 04:08
Read the rest of the thread.
Ask anyone who knows me for my oppinion of PE Stealth ¬.¬
Anyway;
Providing the PE isn't a Stealth whore - which pisses me off.
The APU has a GOOD Chance of winning.
Take my own exploits for example, since I would typically never Stealth unless A) Jumped with SD Down B) Parashocked C) Facing Overwhelming odds and are alone (If I'm not alone I will not stealth even if it's 2vs50 unless the person I am with can stealth as well, even then, I typically made sure they stealth first).
Many, MANY People on Uranus will attest to this, of the fights I can remember stealthing out of all followed these rules.
IF People used Stealth for these reasons only I do not believe there would be a problem.
However I'm a chivalrist and I believe in fair fights, I follow a moral code and feel obligated to fight fair fights.
If it means I die, I die.
If an APU jumped me it would instantly be duel conditions as far as I am concerned, which means it depends primarily on skill and a little on setup.
As for Stealthing whores.
I have never met a GOOD PE that abuses Stealth.
Therefore;
Poison PE as a first move.
HL PE a few times.
Keep firing until PE Stealths.
Repeat steps I posted earlier.
GOOD PEs might have survived using Stealth whore but again like I said I don't know any GOOD PEs that are.
Shadow Dancer hopefully'll post his stealth compromise idea that I support to stop this kinda bullshit.
Okay SD doesn't wanna take credit for the idea :p
Below 70% Health No Stealth.
Prevents Engaged PEs from disappearing.
Allows PEs whom are jumped to disengaging.
Allows PEs to Recon.
Allows PEs to Get the Jump.
Seems alright to me considering how HL Takes off 10-20% of most PEs Health off Per hit :p
Shadow Dancer
21-01-04, 04:10
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Its so funny so see you guys dismissing the ability of the PE to self buff as just "something that he needs to do" , and not something that he would have by default...... while on the other hand , in the gazillion nerf the ppu threads you make, its always assumed the PPU has every buff under the sun always running, heal sanctums catharsis sanctums and holy heals galore.....all up and running all the time.
Yet for me to suggest a PE would do such a thing normally is somehow wrong in your eyes....
Just a thing to think about I guess?
I don't remember complaining about ppu buffs. I complain about them being too important, and parashock. That's basically it.
You misunderstand. I'm not saying he NEEDS to do it, so that's a disadvantage in some way. I'm saying, that you're looking at it as if it's an additional bonus. You say the pe has buffs and the apu doesn't But the PE has apu style defense with a little bit more health without buffs. So to be equal in combat to a tank or apu, he needs to be buffed. It's not some special additional bonus that you can say "omg apus don't get that", it's part of his combat setup. It's like saying "but apus get teh uber damage".
See?
Lifewaster
21-01-04, 05:42
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
You misunderstand. I'm not saying he NEEDS to do it, so that's a disadvantage in some way. I'm saying, that you're looking at it as if it's an additional bonus. You say the pe has buffs and the apu doesn't But the PE has apu style defense with a little bit more health without buffs. So to be equal in combat to a tank or apu, he needs to be buffed. It's not some special additional bonus that you can say "omg apus don't get that", it's part of his combat setup. It's like saying "but apus get teh uber damage".
See?
Heh , I'm not even sure what side of the argument your siding to with this , even less what the argument is anymore lol....
I mean, "but apus get teh uber damage" = True , and also "the pe has buffs and the apu doesn't" = True. For it to balance the PE has to alert himself to always have buffs up, if he does he gets teh slight edge, if he doesnt hes probably dead = seems fair to me.....(especially considering the PEs buff workload is still a hell of a lot less than a PPUs and no one seems to think its difficult for them) however , this balance now relies as QD put it upon him not being a stealth whore ?
Its obvious the ability is there to exploit stealth in an unsporting way, and we have to rely upon a PEs sense of fair play not to abuse it ? This is what everyone seems to be saying no? and this does need to be changed yes ?
/shrug Guess I missed too much of this thread and came at a bad time.....
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 06:39
You don't even seem to under stand what side of the thread I'm on.
What's more, typically taking two average players of both classes I'd personally say the APU had the advantage with the buffs on the PE up.
"Slight edge for the PE" - other way around mate.
Yea, I don't address problems from the point of view of the abuser, because I'm not the abuser.
I address them from my own, therefore my solution mimicks my very own use of the stealth tool.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Im all for a rare poisin beam maybe then these jackasses would realize that you have to spec for poisin and be somewhat weaker against cs etc. Or have 0 poisin and be strong against Cs etc.
I'm all for a rare poison beam, as long as every other class gets a possibility to do poison damage too. you wouldnt have a problem with that, would you? I mean, you specced poison, right ?
poison modded, shelter piercing liberator .. yeah, I cant wait for that. actually I think that would be the long needed ppu nerf.
edit: "shelter doesnt protect against poison" - if that was directed at me, QD, guess why I wrote shelter piercing poison liberator :b
greets, Lagos.
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 06:54
Shelter doesn't even remotely defend against poison anyway...
Please don't nerf stealth to just nerf PE's. Spies already catch enough flak.
Psycho Killa
21-01-04, 07:50
No not a liberator but a nice nailgun.
Lucid Dream
21-01-04, 08:02
Originally posted by Blunt
Please don't nerf stealth to just nerf PE's. Spies already catch enough flak.
Unfortunately, thats whats going to happen. It dosnt seem a big deal, 5 more int req on stealth... spies have 100 at cap! but... a very common setup for spys is using a rifle kami, so now, i have to completely re-setup my spy now that im going to need an additional 5 int. its retarded. If they are going to hit the stealth with 5 higher reqs, the should make the spy kami just take 25 int away instead of 30, that way, no nerf to kami-spys, they stay exactly the same, and PEs have a harder time as intended.
i've never used stealth untill these nerf threads started popping up and i got curious. so i lommed my ass off to meet the reqs.
well it turned out to be really handy in my epic. has anyone ever tried to solo an Y replicant? as a PE, without stealth it is virtualy impossible. the bastard shoots u from miles away once u've emptied a clip. with stealth i did a bit of running around and after 15 minutes i got the bastard down. the same goes with scout units.
for a PE who likes to play solo stealth 2 is the only thing that keeps me ingame. being capped i've got shit fuckal to do, apart from pk and op wars. well pk just ain't my style and op wars are plain shite for a PE. i'm the first to take a bullet and with the way they changed ressurecting i now have enough time to read the brothers karamazov or watch all episodes of the bold and the beautiful in one straight line before i can join in again for 3 seconds and then die again
go ahead guys, nerf the PE
just don't forget to give me something to do while others are having all the fun and i am playing corpse again:p
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 15:09
Uhh Stealthing against mobs doesn't (or at least didn't) stop them from killing you, the amount of times I've tried that on copbots and MC5 units I KNOW it doesn't work :p
believe me, i passed by the y rep numerous times without being noticed.
occasionally he did fry my rectum, but most of the time i had him running around like a headless chicken. its quite easy : shoot a couple of times until he is on his way to u, stealth, run the opposite way, empty a clip, stealth etc
its not brave or heroic but stuff the medal of honour, better a living coward than a dead hero ( i think i just hit the nail on that one..)
i never tried in on copbots though..
every class now has the ability to use poison
Nailguns have poison ammo mods (pistol pes/spies)
flamers got wargas mods (tanks)
poison barrel/beams (monks)
just there's no high tl nailguns/rare version.
Originally posted by Scikar
Then why doesn't the Tank have something for use against multiple enemies?
The question has to be asked - if PEs are really JOATs and therefore able to use stealth, why do they have the highest defence of any combat class?
because tanks can get a really good resist setup if you know what the heck you are doing.....(better thn the PE's)
plus tanks get more damage.
QuantumDelta
21-01-04, 16:53
Originally posted by shend
believe me, i passed by the y rep numerous times without being noticed.
occasionally he did fry my rectum, but most of the time i had him running around like a headless chicken. its quite easy : shoot a couple of times until he is on his way to u, stealth, run the opposite way, empty a clip, stealth etc
its not brave or heroic but stuff the medal of honour, better a living coward than a dead hero ( i think i just hit the nail on that one..)
i never tried in on copbots though..
If you Stealth before they gain agro, they wont kill you.
If they already have Agro either from you shooting them, or from them spotting you, you will get them shooting you if they think they can hit you.
every class now has the ability to use poison
Nailguns have poison ammo mods (pistol pes/spies)
flamers got wargas mods (tanks)
poison barrel/beams (monks)
just there's no high tl nailguns/rare version.
what about riflers ?
and i dont think the nailgun rally counts as a poison effective weapon. itsonly any good for pushing ppu's who are rezzing around
Originally posted by wolfwood
because tanks can get a really good resist setup if you know what the heck you are doing.....(better thn the PE's)
plus tanks get more damage.
:lol:
Don't talk out of your arse. A tank will never have as good defence as a PE as long as PEs get shelter and Tanks don't.
I want a rare nailgun and a rare nailrifle :) Would be cool.
Add a whole new sort of weapon to the rifle pool as well... Nailrifle. OH and boost the Nailguns :)
Originally posted by Scikar
:lol:
Don't talk out of your arse. A tank will never have as good defence as a PE as long as PEs get shelter and Tanks don't. Only some what, its hard as hell for PEs to spec for poison and still have that uber resists. If poison was made a common attack type then I would say Tanks have the advantage. If the damage types were limited to xray/fire/energy then Id definitely agree.
Shadow Dancer
21-01-04, 18:35
Originally posted by Jest
Only some what, its hard as hell for PEs to spec for poison and still have that uber resists. If poison was made a common attack type then I would say Tanks have the advantage. If the damage types were limited to xray/fire/energy then Id definitely agree.
I agree!
I think thogh that ony tanks and apus should have poison attacks.
Um, i do think their should be dex based melee weaponry for spies that can have poison mods.
:D
*sighs* I dont understand the fact that ...tbh... nobody gave a flying f**k about PE stealth until monks got nerfed. Why , all of a sudden , do all these threads start
please , link me every thread you can find about PE's being overpowered around the release date of stealth.
I just cant take the nerf thing seriously because it seems people only ever want to nerf. and nerf and nerf and nerf and nerf and nerf.
Hell I wasn't even really behind the monk nerf, I just thought 'well , they have an advantage but im gonna play better to beat him'...
Hehe... well said Leebzie
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