View Full Version : Faction Only Items
TheGreatMilenko
15-01-04, 06:37
Faction Only Items Would Be Kewl If u Think Of It Like Having Some TG PE/Spy/Tank/Monk PA and u gota be TG to wear the armor or use there weapons like DRE would have there own PA and it would all look diferent like the epics the CA PA u gota be CA to use the PA so think about it
BTW: tired bored (life sux) so mite as well do somthing with it and post o_O
Don't like it on the cardboard-box PA. Don't like it in general.
Devils Grace
15-01-04, 07:04
Originally posted by jernau
Don't like it on the cardboard-box PA. Don't like it in general.
thats kuz ur a nib
Originally posted by Devils Grace
thats kuz ur a nib
err right.
Actually it's because if the bonuses are any good it would distort the factions.
eg - Give crahn a faction item that boosts a PSI skill, even a little. All the monks go crahn. Great!!
If you want cosmetic or RP faction items then I'm with you but if they have any advantages at all they are a bad thing IMO.
Why not have certain faction items giving a good boost? the CA pa was supposed to be one of the best vest armours around (hey thanks for the nerfage). Next reveler is the best vehicle of em all with damage output high and repair cost very very low. I dont see anything wrong in TG getting an Fire resist armour for example, or make it a hazard suit poison/fire maybe would make sense in the area tg are living now. Just cause people tend to go other factions doesnt mean that the rewards in some factions are useless. Its still up to players to make something out of their factions.
Originally posted by jernau
All the monks go crahn. Great!!
This wouldnt be bad as it actually has a roleplay aspect to it.But then again most people think this is a mmofps not a mmorpg.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
This wouldnt be bad as it actually has a roleplay aspect to it.But then again most people think this is a mmofps not a mmorpg.
True, the RP side is good but you have to take balance into consideration when making a game not just RP.
Originally posted by jernau
True, the RP side is good but you have to take balance into consideration when making a game not just RP.
Since when has any faction or any class being balanced in this game?
nonamebrandeggs
15-01-04, 07:24
As Long As The Class Items Are Balanced And Non Of Them Only Cater To One Class (SpeedGun).
Well faction balance is a player determined thing atm and generally fairly fluid as there are so many faction-hoppers.
Class-balance is an almost impossible goal but making it harder for yourself doesn't seem wise.
Yeah speedgun should have rifle and pistol counterparts.
But monks can bitch about the CM CA and TT epic as they are at the moment.
I prefer the idea of faction vendors : NPCs who only sell to one faction and maybe only to players over a certain sympathy or rank in that faction.
Make the items they sell un-BPable but high quality and slotted if weapons (like high-end spells).
As long as there aren't too many of these items of course as that might affect the player economy (yeah, yeah, that's knacked too, I know).
Yeah basically have alts or friends in every faction or just buy from people who dont care about the faction RP parts of the game.
Or : Allow people to RP as smugglers and gun-runners.
You're right though, given the maturity level of most of the player-base but at least it wouldn't unbalance anything.
faction vendors would be kwel. Maybe just normal vendors who sell items very cheap to runners in the right dfaction.. or itewms that can only besold to them.
We can only wish they would do this :D
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 17:47
Originally posted by jernau
err right.
Actually it's because if the bonuses are any good it would distort the factions.
eg - Give crahn a faction item that boosts a PSI skill, even a little. All the monks go crahn. Great!!
If you want cosmetic or RP faction items then I'm with you but if they have any advantages at all they are a bad thing IMO.
agree'd. its like when it was proposed for epics...
PP would be the only balanced faction (as all classes use PPR)
CM... why would a non-tank want a TSG?
etc etc
I had an idea for this, I named a few items too.
But a faction specific item would be something atainable and useable only at certain Faction Loyalties and in that faction.
Example. A power armor that when a runner has 95 faction sympathy can use and only while he is in that faction.
So the requiremets are like... Faction Sympathy : 95, Faction : Tangent Technologies, Strength : 80
something like that.
Originally posted by jernau
eg - Give crahn a faction item that boosts a PSI skill, even a little. All the monks go crahn. Great!!ONOZ!!! Monks go Crahn = makes no sense.
Errrr....
Well take your reasoning above, and considering we have four classes of runners and many more factions, which ONE faction would each class go to?
Or what if a monk wanted more Con? Monks have plenty of Psi already. If there was a faction that added more Str, I bet you would have plenty of monks/spies/PEs after that factional item, while tanks may be more prone to go after the resistance based items or something.
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 18:01
Originally posted by Strych9
ONOZ!!! Monks go Crahn = makes no sense.
Errrr....
Well take your reasoning above, and considering we have four classes of runners and many more factions, which ONE faction would each class go to?
Or what if a monk wanted more Con? Monks have plenty of Psi already. If there was a faction that added more Str, I bet you would have plenty of monks/spies/PEs after that factional item, while tanks may be more prone to go after the resistance based items or something.
you are assuming these items are req-free too?
i didnt see that suggested, and i dont think that would be a good idea at all.
monk with +con? how many use a MOVEON? thats right - none.
if i offered you a MOVEON (with no req's) or the crahn epic (not implemented yet) (the tachyon glove thing, i forget the proposed stats)... would you honestly choose the MOVEON?
oh and BTW - you realise a +con effect would be 100% useless now? ok it gives a bit more health... but resists arent effected
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:04
Originally posted by Zanathos
Example. A power armor that when a runner has 95 faction sympathy can use and only while he is in that faction.
You realise, most people have nothing like that faction symp.
There are faction items attainable for doing things for your faction, rewarded by your FC, but I don't know if they are any good or are even useable yet.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
This wouldnt be bad as it actually has a roleplay aspect to it.But then again most people think this is a mmofps not a mmorpg.
Exaclty... I think that monks in Crahn should get a "holy" bonus or something... because I mean Psi monks who are either decendants or have been taught by the followers of the great Crahn would know a little bit more about psionics and how it works than a traitor psi monk who just works for cityadmin.
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 18:11
Originally posted by Judge
Exaclty... I think that monks in Crahn should get a "holy" bonus or something... because I mean Psi monks who are either decendants or have been taught by the followers of the great Crahn would know a little bit more about psionics and how it works than a traitor psi monk who just works for cityadmin.
a traiter knows less than someone who isnt a traitor?
these monks evolved and found out there abilities on their own... why cant a CA monk have abilities?
what i would agree with is really good spells being sold in Crahn abbies. the best appartments in BD / DRE HQ's. the unique weapons (TRIDE fusion / Reeza's Gaze / etc) being sold in TT HQ. rocket launchers are currently in MB, laser blades are currently in TH... TG should have something... maybe all fusion technology? maybe all fusion / ray mods (instead of fusion tchnology... not aswell) IE terrorists modify weapons they purchase to attack the city.
etc etc
I can see the RP side of it.
But to be the 1337est most , if not all people would be moving over to the faction with the item for the best setup. That would cripple factions.
There, it falls down.
As for people who want to steal technology from other factions and use it, why not ? thats pretty cyberpunk if you ask me. Just been playing fallout 2 again. I didnt think ' Nah, wont put the enclave* armor on, because I dont support what they stand for' I thought 'Oooh. better armor, this can aide me in the fight'
That kinda hits on the RP side too.
I do belive people in those factions should be the only ones with *access* to the items, so they can sell them/trade them on to those who need them for a higher price, and things they need.
*if you havent played fallout 2 , the enclave are the people you destroy
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
You realise, most people have nothing like that faction symp.
There are faction items attainable for doing things for your faction, rewarded by your FC, but I don't know if they are any good or are even useable yet.
Well guess what?
You will be rewarded for getting 95 Faction Sympathy.
Unless you mean its impossible to get that much sympathy.
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:17
Doing a hard mission/run/work for your faction is better than doing a bajillion runs to get 95 faction symp. :p
@stych9 - most people use cookie-cutter setups so they'll go wherever the setup tells them to.
@Zanathos - Sympathy reqs I prefer to faction reqs. So I can use a TT item if I have >50 TT sympathy even if I'm FA for example. Then again I think individual faction reactions should be based on personal sympathies not hardwired faction relationships.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Doing a hard mission/run/work for your faction is better than doing a bajillion runs to get 95 faction symp. :p
Doing a mission that took a week beats trying to kill guards for symp...or the same useless mission over and over.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
a traiter knows less than someone who isnt a traitor?
these monks evolved and found out there abilities on their own... why cant a CA monk have abilities?
Because the Crahn sect have made their techniques over hundreds of years... and the new Crahn monks would be being taught by the best of the best. Additionally Crahn monks would be blessed by Crahn, giving them more power. Of course I don't mean like +50 APU and PPU just a little bit.
So for CS, you could have a CS only glove but would allow say Tanks/PE/Spies to cast slightly better spells (or same but pull points off onto something else).
TH, Trade skill chip.
Heck i'd agree to Rev going to NEXT only providing that all faction only items are generic in use or augment stats other classes would get a bonus from.
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 18:24
Originally posted by Judge
Because the Crahn sect have made their techniques over hundreds of years... and the new Crahn monks would be being taught by the best of the best. Additionally Crahn monks would be blessed by Crahn, giving them more power. Of course I don't mean like +50 APU and PPU just a little bit.
maybe these "traitors" were in crahn before?
maybe they get a dodgy crahn monk to teach them... for a price?
maybe the fact that they wake up brainwashed with no memory in MC5 kills any previous training and they all start out equal?
Then if an FA can use a TT gun, whats the point of faction items?
And it IS possible to get 95 sympathy for a faction?
Well then, you get 95 TT sympathy and you will be rewarded for being so loyal to that faction (AND BEING IN THAT FACTION!)
Ive also thought of other bonus' which would make certain subclasses of players want to be in certain factions.
Like if the trader union was a faction you could join, then you get a small boost to all your trade skills... like +5
just something like that.
Im just trying to get these factions to be more unique besides what they are allied, neutral and enemies with.
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:25
Perhaps through runs and such you could gain 'skills' and abilities, like a permanent bonus to a cirtain stat, not much like 5 points.
Like you could do weapon or psi training or something...
Cruzbroker
15-01-04, 18:26
How about you had a logo of you faction on your PA, nothing special..
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 18:26
Originally posted by Zanathos
And it IS possible to get 95 sympathy for a faction?
Well then, you get 95 TT sympathy and you will be rewarded for being so loyal to that faction (AND BEING IN THAT FACTION!)
currently you are rewarded for faction hopping (paladin), you wanna reward for everything?
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:26
Crahn should get a crahn symbol on thier cloaks like the npcs do.
//edit What I mean is that you should have to do something above mere faction symp.
Originally posted by Zanathos
Then if an FA can use a TT gun, whats the point of faction items?
Well, that's really my point - I don't like faction items unless they are 100% RP.
As a general point I think it's retarded that people can't play 5th columnists, diplomats, smugglers, etc. ie Roles which involve spending time safely in "enemy" territory.
Example - I want to play an arms dealer :
I spend time making connections into all factions (missions).
I can then walk past the guards and not attract attention of players in their bases to buy special items because I have high FS to them.
I then sell these to those who can't go into those areas.
It's always annoyed me that I can have 100FS to say TT and -20 to FA and be KOS to TT not FA becuase I am FA. FA should see me as a traitor at that point and TT see me as an ally despite my "nationality".
/edit - I also think this can be a viable alternative to wearing an LE. It would be a very difficult role to play but you could have players that are green to all factions and function as diplomats in inter-clan disputes or trusted third parties, etc. Some morons would still gank them I'm sure but in theory it could work.
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:35
If they get rid of SL and make FS the reason for KOS by guards then I will be happy.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
If they get rid of SL and make FS the reason for KOS by guards then I will be happy.
see edit :)
I'd rather see the two combined. Make FS hits harder in the situations where an SL hit would happen currently. Also make the FS reactions more severe so, for example, if you are red to your "home" faction you are KOS to their guards and a guard is placed in your appartment or the faction offers cash rewards to it's members for killing you.
Dribble Joy
15-01-04, 18:52
Yeah.
I had a random idea a while ago that for people with crap home faction symp (too low for missions) they could do, penalty missions, taking out the trash, or having your char confined to his apt or HQ for a period of time (prison) in order to increase symp.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
you are assuming these items are req-free too?
i didnt see that suggested, and i dont think that would be a good idea at all.
monk with +con? how many use a MOVEON? thats right - none.
if i offered you a MOVEON (with no req's) or the crahn epic (not implemented yet) (the tachyon glove thing, i forget the proposed stats)... would you honestly choose the MOVEON?
oh and BTW - you realise a +con effect would be 100% useless now? ok it gives a bit more health... but resists arent effected So you already know the specs of these items we are imagining? Impressive. ;)
Okay, so since we are just making shit up anyway, which would YOU rather have as a monk- armor that has no reqs and gives +5 Psi +10 PPW and +10 PSU, or a spine that has no reqs and gives +5 to con +10 energy +10 xray +10 poison? Which do you think would be more important to a monk?
See, its different depending on what the items are and what the specs are.
Would I chose a moveon (as a monk I assume) instead of the not yet implemented and you dont know the stats on it glove? Well its supposed to add +20 Psi Use last I checked. Thats it. So, lets look at your offer shall we? My monk is pure PPU. Imps with the glove would be DS, Psi Core, Def Psi 3, Def Psi 2, Filter Heart 1. Imps with the Moveon would be DS, Psi Core, Def Psi 3, Moveon, Filter Heart 2 (yes, moveon allows FH2 without drugs or anything else).
So with the glove I have +30 Psi Use and +10 PPU. With the moveon I have +1 con, +8 resist force, +18 health, +2 xray, and +5 poison. Given that without the glove I will still have over 200 in Psi Use and I will still be able to cap my PPU spells without Def Psi Proc 2... which do YOU think is the better option? Even if I have the stats wrong on the glove (which is QUITE possible)... if I can cap my PPU spells and have over 200 psi use anyway... can you NOT see how the extra health/protection might be worthwhile to some players out there????
Factions are not class exclusive, therefore faction equipment must be usable by all classes, or make available a different piece of equipment for each class. I am a monk, I am Tsunami, I would expect my faction to value me being a loyal member. I would not expect my faction to ignore me and only reward riflers (ts epic reward is a rifle).
If factions are supposed to be class exclusive, then it needs to be made clear at character creation. Picking the wrong faction would be akin to picking TG and not knowing it's a tougher faction to play. This would have so many other problems too. Are the classes really that balanced that you could face a team of entirely one type? At the moment you can do that with Monks, but not really any others. Ooops, only Crahn get's to have ppu support! Crahn would easily dominate the game, no contest. A ppu might join Protopharma maybe, for the pp chip, but though they will have better resists, they won't be able to match the power of Crahn. Some ppu's might join Tech Haven and be tradeskillers, can they compete against Crahn? nope. No other faction has anything a ppu would want. Where does that leave us? Faction hopping, join a faction to get the prize and then return to your preferred faction. Where will the tradeskillers go? They will be happily living in Tech Haven. Woe be it to factions hostile to FA, you won't be getting anything researched or built anytime soon. When the crahn epic finnaly goes in, I will be Crahn for as long as it takes to get the glove, then I will return to TSunami.
Now a compromise is possible, a faction can have a favored class, but not exclude other classes. For example biotech might have a line of chips for each class, but the best is the Moveon for Tanks. A biotech monk would be happy, his faction rewards him for staying loyal. Sure he doesn't get the absolute best monk equipment, but he gets some at least. Enough to compete.
Strych9: The moveon is vastly inferior to the protopharma resistor chip. You get much more points free in con to boost your resists. The crahn glove was available on Test Server and underwent a few stat changes before it vanished. I believe it last gave psu and psi level, a good deal of both. This would make it easier to reach the reqs for equipment, especialy power armor. With a Crahn Glove, Monk PA4 will be usable. Wether it improves your combat ability, is a different story. Honestly though the stats don't matter. The idea is that the Crahn Glove will improve a Monk's ability beyond otherwise possible. Every ppu makes the decision between trusting your defense to resists or trusting your defense to ppu power. As it is, you can pop out a defensive 2 and put in the pp resistor chip. I previously had this setup and had an amazing resist setup which meant I took very little damage. Unfortuanetly I was also slower to cast and my spells were less potent. After a while I realized that the key to ppu's being immortal is not their defenses at all. Our defenses are not that much better then Tanks. What makes us so powerful, is our ability to heal and recover. If you can't outheal someone's damage or run away and cast a spell fast enough to recover from an antibuff or just to heal up some, it really doesn't matter if you have 0 resists or 100 resists. Sure it could buy you a little time before you die, but that hardly makes up for it. Go with ppu power and you will outheal anything thrown at you, you will cast fast enough to piss off apu's, you will pull off ressurects despite the enemies best efforts to stop you. So when all the epics are in, there is no doubt in my mind that I will go crahn to get the glove.
Granted you are a tradeskiller ppu, maybe you would prefer to use the pp to avoid dying so much. More likely you'll join Fallen Angels for the tradeskiller chip, which is supposed to be their epic prize.
Jesterthegreat
15-01-04, 22:46
Originally posted by Strych9
So you already know the specs of these items we are imagining? Impressive. ;)
Okay, so since we are just making shit up anyway, which would YOU rather have as a monk- armor that has no reqs and gives +5 Psi +10 PPW and +10 PSU, or a spine that has no reqs and gives +5 to con +10 energy +10 xray +10 poison? Which do you think would be more important to a monk?
See, its different depending on what the items are and what the specs are.
Would I chose a moveon (as a monk I assume) instead of the not yet implemented and you dont know the stats on it glove? Well its supposed to add +20 Psi Use last I checked. Thats it. So, lets look at your offer shall we? My monk is pure PPU. Imps with the glove would be DS, Psi Core, Def Psi 3, Def Psi 2, Filter Heart 1. Imps with the Moveon would be DS, Psi Core, Def Psi 3, Moveon, Filter Heart 2 (yes, moveon allows FH2 without drugs or anything else).
So with the glove I have +30 Psi Use and +10 PPU. With the moveon I have +1 con, +8 resist force, +18 health, +2 xray, and +5 poison. Given that without the glove I will still have over 200 in Psi Use and I will still be able to cap my PPU spells without Def Psi Proc 2... which do YOU think is the better option? Even if I have the stats wrong on the glove (which is QUITE possible)... if I can cap my PPU spells and have over 200 psi use anyway... can you NOT see how the extra health/protection might be worthwhile to some players out there???? well actually... i think you will find INSTEAD of making things up, i used what does exsist ingame as an example...
besides i cant see having faction specific items without req's as a good thing. classes were set up as they were for a reason. they put class restrictions on PA's to enforce that further. they dont want HC PE's to do well... they dont want MOVEON wearing monks...
KK are far from the best people at balancing, but i think adding a lad of req free items would be a BAD move. kk realised this when MC5's were req free... all of a sudden PE's were posting o the forum that they would have amazing stats with all 4.
all imps's and all weapons have reqs for a reason, i dont thik this would / should change for faction rewards
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