Stealth bug ? why not ,make it like this always.

[Lifewaster]

Other night in CRP , I think TG were retaking the op, I was at reload point with another FA in team for caves.

I noticed a stealther , only it wasnt like an invisible stealther beyond 10 feet, this guy has fire graphics, I guess musta been hit by a firemob and the fire stayed on him like it does on normal players sometimes.

So we could (barely) see the fire graphic, even when he ran 50 feet away.

Couldnt see name in local.
Couldnt target him with apu spells for 90 seconds inbetween stealths.
He basically had 90 seconds of invulnerability , followed by 1-2 seconds targetable then invulnerable again.

We (2 monks) chased him all over the zone , almost lost him several times due to lag, terrain etc.

Finally hounded him to OP where he went to UG , by this stage several ppl were chasing him , then only when he was trapped in a corner did he finally die to a tank AOE , which also nearly killed us.

I dunno why he died, he could have easily made it to either of the GR's , despite the fact that this "bug" so severly hampered his stealth from its actual form of vanishing after 10 feet.

So I ask, is this not enough ?

Why do stealthers , in addition to what this guy had, need to be able to totally vanish from view once they run 10 feet away, then have the luxery to choose if they will return to fight (once healed and re-buffed) or simply leave ?

Is it not enough that they are untargetable to spells ?
That their name isnt displayed on local ?
That its hard enough to keep up with them on a cross-zone chase ?

How did PE/Spy play before stealth was introduced? Were they totally useless?
If Kk had offered stealth in the lesser form that this guy had due to his bug) from the offset would they not have been overjoyed at what it could still do ?



I think stealth could maybe be made to work like this always, even outnumbered by 2 monks, this guy could still have got away to a GR, the only diff is , we could have chased him to the GR and "seen him off" rather than be stuck in the middle of the zone wondering wtf he is and if hes coming back to attack us.

[\\Fényx//]

yea nerf stealth im all for that :)

[Shadow Dancer]

Stealth is fine. I'm not ok about pes escaping battle so easily when their losing. But I don't know how that can be solved without taking stealth away. And I don't think it should be taken away from them.

[ZoneVortex]

they aren't untargettable by spells...la la la

[Lifewaster]

Originally posted by ZoneVortex
they aren't untargettable by spells...la la la


Do you mean barrels? Cos I casted at his stealth form several times with Beam type spell and never saw anything hit or got any target indicator ?

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by Lifewaster
Do you mean barrels? Cos I casted at his stealth form several times with Beam type spell and never saw anything hit or got any target indicator ?


try one of the multi bolts

[ichinin]

Do NOT nerf anything, Spy defenses are generally SHIT so we need stealth to even stand a chanse to survive. Stop your lame "NERF THIS!" propaganda. Ask KK to boost the other stuff instead, If you nerfers have your way, Sewer rats will be able to kill us all soon.

[bounty]

I think stealth is a cool toy for spies and should stay in.

[SorkZmok]

If you make stealthed ppl visible, you fuck up stealth. Cause then theres no sense about it anymore. I mean if i stealth and run away you got loads of time to heal up, change your position too, call in your apu friends, pop some drugs and sex a drom. While all i can do is pop a medikit and run.

Now where is that unfair?

[Keyol45743241]

Stealthers who aren't stealthers are dead meat :rolleyes:

Maybe you suck, but usually Monkehs need only the one or two seconds between the stealth activations to nuke the poor victim. Heck, it even suffices for a droner, burning stealthers are the most sad sight in the world. You hurt them, watch their puny efforts to stealth and move into cover, then finish them off with the next salvo. :rolleyes:

Although I agree, stealthers should be a little bit more visible on close distances - and be damageable by melee weaponry.

[Archeus]

Yea you can tag stealthers already like you said, and once you do they are dead.

any AOE weapon hurts them.

[Crest]

This is very open, I have started the same kind of thread a week ago....

Stealth needs to be looked at. If mobs can still target stealth so should we .....

I am sure KK are looking into this in great depth.... Alternative ... Give all classes stealth , so they can also hit , when loosing cower and run ...


I feel stealth is prbably needed for one class only, and thats Spies... PE's and stealth hmmm ...

The PE ... Shelters ... Stealth....Heals .... this gives rise to a unfair advantage. I saw this comming,


Now that this will be addressed i think they will cry unfair play on tanks again... hehe ... and ife will go on

[Rinaldo]

Stealth needs to be looked at. If mobs can still target stealth so should we .....
Sorry I think this is mainly a bug, unless we feel that we are not as good as mobs to track a stealther.

Again, stealth is the only defense for spies... their resists are likely to be negligible or they will be massively gimped up to cap. PEs likewise need to give up on a number of abilities to stealth. I think Keyol45743241 and SorkZmok summarize perfectly what can be done when a stealther steathes.

A bit of skill will help defeat the stealthers... a bit of luck too but that does not change from the rest of the fights.

[VetteroX]

stealth needs some sort of nerf, I think the best thing to do is a much longer delay between stealthings. Im sicj of cowardly little spies stealthing all the time.

[Keyol45743241]

Yes... give the more expensive stealth devices more use. Make the obliterator work quickest between stealthings (speed like it is now) and the lvl1 stealth take up to 20 seconds. That would further differentiate between Spys and PEs

[deac]

Originally posted by Keyol45743241
and the lvl1 stealth take up to 20 seconds.

lol....

[athon]

You have to remember that spies have basically no other defense. They can only wear up to Battle armor 2/3 without gimping and get only 40 con, and on top of all that, after capping all rifles and trying to get some sort of decent con setup there's not many points left for speed.

All you need to kill a stealth is an APU. They have less con, but they can run faster, shoot faster and only need to be able to target the spy for a fraction of a second to be able to kill them. I have a capped tech rifle spy who can use stealth 3 with a rifle 1 buff. An APU just needs to follow me (which isn't hard 'cause they've usually got off some spell like poison or fire that makes me visible, and takes down my health. All I can do is run and take a medkit. All the APU does is follow and then when I get revealed, pop of another 1 or 2 attacks, and I'm finished. If they then have a PPU with them with para I have no chance what so ever.

I believe that PEs shouldn't get stealth, or should only get a short one (shorter than current stealth 1) or one with a longer 'reacharge' time.

I also believe there needs to be more 'incentive' for peopel to use the obliterator. Currently I find that I only want to use Stealth 3 because that generally gives me enough time to either find a hiding place and log or to get to a GR.

It would be interesting to see the obliterator effect changed to be similar to Halo's stealth effect, perhaps with the time being shortened to the same as Stealth 3. In Halo, while stealthed you can select weapons while invisible, but once you fire you become visible for a short period of time, then fade back to invisibility over a period of about 10-20 seconds. This would be plenty of time for any class to ount an attack on a spotted attacker.

Athon Solo

[Jesterthegreat]

Originally posted by ichinin
Do NOT nerf anything, Spy defenses are generally SHIT so we need stealth to even stand a chanse to survive. Stop your lame "NERF THIS!" propaganda. Ask KK to boost the other stuff instead, If you nerfers have your way, Sewer rats will be able to kill us all soon.


whiloe i agree nerfing everything is a pathetic solution...

if you honestly think spy defences are shit then please lom your spy...

i think i gat 120 xray without speccing a single point. add a full inq 1 set (minus chest) and a heavy NRG belt and you got fairly good resists. spec points and add a PPR and you got great resists. most the spies i knew popped drugs... do that and your shit fast and can have more resists / health.

the only problem is balancing health vs resists.

330 health and great resists is my choice, (undrugged, i dont drug when capped) of course with a beast / redflash combo that ups my run speed, i can lom and have more pistol combat / body health...

Junkie

[Lifewaster]

Originally posted by athon
All the APU does is follow and then when I get revealed, pop of another 1 or 2 attacks, and I'm finished. If they then have a PPU with them with para I have no chance what so ever. [/B]



K , well my apu isnt very high or have great spells yet , but I still think the visibility should be tweaked. I could barely keep up with this guy even while he was lit up with fire, if he had normal stealth effect no way I would have been able.

Maybe this is cause of graphics effects/screen lag ? Is the stealth easier to see if you have full effects and max dynamic lights on ? So you basically need the bestest PC etc to be able to follow these guys?

[FirestarXL]

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat

if you honestly think spy defences are shit then please lom your spy...

i think i gat 120 xray without speccing a single point. add a full inq 1 set (minus chest) and a heavy NRG belt and you got fairly good resists. spec points and add a PPR and you got great resists. most the spies i knew popped drugs... do that and your shit fast and can have more resists / health.

the only problem is balancing health vs resists.

330 health and great resists is my choice, (undrugged, i dont drug when capped) of course with a beast / redflash combo that ups my run speed, i can lom and have more pistol combat / body health...


I'm sorry, but setups based around taking multiple drugs should not be compared directly as a solutiion against a player which has to take no drugs at all. I don't know about you but I have very very limited room in my quickbelt to stock all those drugs I would need, and I don't currently have the luxury of a high framerate machine to flick back to the inventory and take the drugs in time to stop being found and killed by attackers (even when steathed). Plus the fact that you would have to watch your rpos all the time to make sure you're not going to get drug crash (unless you're using exploits to avoid it), and that is distracting enough in itself. Sorry, but let's compare like for like here.

Also, xray? What proper pvper mods their gun for xray these days, and no APU spells do xray damage, so let's not count that for anything but a number shall we?

A spy cannot do anything but optimise his resists and armour, unless he gimps himself and has to rely on drugs for the most basic of gameplay. Stealth is his compensation for that major hole in his character stat caps.

I don't mean this post in a confrontational way, but I just had to get that off my chest.

[wolfwood]

OMG if u nerf the stealth you will destroy everything the spy is......

[Jesterthegreat]

Originally posted by FirestarXL
I'm sorry, but setups based around taking multiple drugs should not be compared directly as a solutiion against a player which has to take no drugs at all. I don't know about you but I have very very limited room in my quickbelt to stock all those drugs I would need, and I don't currently have the luxury of a high framerate machine to flick back to the inventory and take the drugs in time to stop being found and killed by attackers (even when steathed). Plus the fact that you would have to watch your rpos all the time to make sure you're not going to get drug crash (unless you're using exploits to avoid it), and that is distracting enough in itself. Sorry, but let's compare like for like here.

Also, xray? What proper pvper mods their gun for xray these days, and no APU spells do xray damage, so let's not count that for anything but a number shall we?

A spy cannot do anything but optimise his resists and armour, unless he gimps himself and has to rely on drugs for the most basic of gameplay. Stealth is his compensation for that major hole in his character stat caps.

I don't mean this post in a confrontational way, but I just had to get that off my chest.

as said in my post... my capped setup includes no drugs (except to shelter in duels)

ok i assume from your comment that you are a long time player / someone who devotes alot of time to the game. not everyone is a "power gamer". now dont take this as an insult. i used to play nightly... multiple hours a night. hell i pulled a 36 hour session once. but my point is that not everyone plays enough to have 4 different ammo modded CS's. not everyone wants to sit and rare hunt / trade for hours to get them. its people who say "What proper pvper mods their gun for xray these days, and no APU spells do xray damage, so let's not count that for anything but a number shall we?" that spec little xray, and are shocked when a casual gamer, with a hand-me-down xray CS, absolutely shreds them.

now... my resists (as a spy) are all 120+ except poison. poison is my weakness. it alwas has been. i have never used an anti-drug, and yet i have never been killed by poison.

now as i (think i) said in my last post, im at work and dont have my setup handy. however i can tell you that it involves 120-125 fire / NRG, 140(roughly) xray, 333 health (self buffs, more at op wars) and about 80/90 ath/agi (not necessarily in that order). thats with 175 PC (iirc) and 90 tc (with self buffs... enough to use stealth 1 without buffs). if you cant guess it is a +str and inq1 setup.

this leaves me with 108 dex (ROLH), 90 tc (stealth 1), 115 hacking (self buff), 50 psi pool (when not drugging to shelter, more if i do), 333 health (self buffed) and less than 10% damage from anything (except poison).

this is a bad setup in your eyes?

im sorry... but a well setup spy can take on a well setup Monk / Tank / PE. this is a fact of the game now. it has been done. my first op war, my entire team died, and i proceeded to kill 3 PPU's solo. this was before the PPU rez nerf etc. also bare in mind i was far from capped. i was drugging to use a lib ffs.

now... i mean no offence to you or anyone... but spies can fight. and spies can win.

like it or not.


i personally think i have a DAMNED good setup. however i no longer play and i was never particually good at PvP anyway, so dont just say "oh yeah? kill me then!"

Junkie

[FirestarXL]

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
lots of stuff

Big post, some good points, some not so good IMHO. But since you don't play, not a lot we can do to test or resolve anything really. I have been in the process of changing my setup to a similar one to the one you mentioned for a while, but I still have the reservations I mentioned.

But regarding your comment about casual players who only have the one CS, they don't often do OP wars, sometimes yes, but almost always you're seeing the same people, the ones that are on trade-nc all the time buying their parts. These are the ones I would spec against, not someone I *might* meet, but someone I *will* meet. I don't fight in pepper park style things (probably should have mentioned that, sorry) so I'm far less likely to meet these people. My point still stands here, at least for my own situations, your milage may vary.

Oh and I won't comment on your "I killed 3 PPU'sd with my libby spy", that way lies madness and flamage. And I really can't be arsed with that. :D

Thanks for your in depth reply, I would love to see your setup, even just to compare it to the one I have mapped, PM me if you feel like it, but I know how protective people are about them... ;)

[Rai Wong]

ONOZ something I cannot target!!!, even though I can target anything else without any skill what so ever click and hit, easy mode easy mode!

godamnit get off our backs monks, you can hit everything else with a click while other classes actually have to AIM. Nerf the aim of spells before even try to nerf stealth

stupid monks....

I do agree melee should be able to hit stealth

[Melkior]

*mental note to use xray modded weps against firestar*

[Morris]

Originally posted by FirestarXL
What proper pvper mods their gun for xray these days, and no APU spells do xray damage, so let's not count that for anything but a number shall we?

Bahaha. Almost all of my guns are xray. It does more or less the same as fire against someone with a good setup, and absolutely devastates people who dump all their xray into enr/fire (like you :p)

Spies will almost always have more xray than fire, but with a bit of thought a spy can have ample fire resist. Most spies seem to assume that they will never have defense and spec accordingly (I have turreted flazer Disruptor spies to death with my spy's xray RoLH from all the way across an OP before, and finished with > 200 health).

[FirestarXL]

I didn't say I didn't have any, I said it wasn't as important. It's so rediculously easy to get xray as a spy without gimping yourself (PA/bones) that I take it anyway. I level on DoY bots so it makes sense for that too.