View Full Version : PPU balance issues
Ok, since people are whining about PPU whines I thought Id put
some more water on the wheel. Here it is, my take on PPUs and
whats wrong with them, if we are lucky I might just throw in
some constructive comments but dont count on it.
One of the problem is the fact that the presence of the PPU
escalates the power of alot of things. Look at MC5 for example,
the only reason that MC5 has to be as hard as it is now is
because of the PPU monks incredible defence and the ability they
have to hand out this defence to others. The same goes for
normal mobs and mobs in various dungeons. Beucase it would
make to easy to kill them with a PPU at the current power, some
things become very very hard to do without a PPU. This in turn
means that the only way to level (or do anything for that matter)
properly is with a PPU. Now, you could argue that this is a team
based game but the problem is not that KK is enforcing teamplay,
the problem is that no other class is needed, its all about
PPU+anything. If all classes were as needed as PPUs are then
there would be no problem. Just as an example, if you needed
PEs for rez, Tanks to keep aggro from someone whos vulnerable
and spies for some weird damage boost sanctum like effect then
there could be balance, you would want all classes. Now Im
definately not saying that the spells should be redistributed in
that fashion, its just an example. The optimal team should
contain one char of every class, simple as that.
Now, this is not enough, the major imbalance with PPUs is the
heal. The damage reduction they have and can give to others is
fine, it doesnt really make that huge of a difference, the problem
comes when you throw a cap holy heal into the equation. Mobs
are outhealed, and all work nullified when someone you have
been fighting for a while suddenly bounce up to full health. There
is no way you can counter that, no way to stop it and no way to
fight against it.
Some people keep buzzing about the parashock, which indeed is
annoying, but its not the biggest problem and has absolutely
nothing to do with the PvM imbalance. KK has already nerfed
parashock good and they said themselves that the increase in
shock effect was a mistake. When all the parashock spells have
their shock effect lessened to their original values again the
parashock will be fine.
Just think for yourself for a while: If all mobs were made easier,
and PPUs heals were drastically nerfed, what would happen? You
would have to think. Instead of crouching infront of a grim reaper
with a weight on your fire button while you are watching tv you
would have to use cover alot and know when to withdraw. I have
been leveling a melee tank for a while, usually teamed with a rifle
spy, without PPU, and its been fun. Surprisingly, we actually
have a good time, because its hard. Thats what the beginning of
Neocron was, the PvM was fun, because you had to think and
move and use covers and time heals and whatnot. Thats not the
case anymore, PPU removed that fun from PvM.
Now, on to PvP. If PPU heals were nerfed, what would happen?
Think about it before responding, you individually would not be
any worse off compared to others. PPUs would still be
desperately needed for PvP, but you might not always be able to
miracoulusly save someone from otherwise certain death. And
neither will your opponents. The reason that you really want to
kill the PPUs as badly as you want currently is the fact that their
heals are so powerful, with reduced healing power they would
have reduced importance. Killing off that tank with the devourer
might be just as important as killing of the PPU, because would
no longer be a win-button. This means that not everyone and
their mother will focus on killing the PPU anymore, while your
staying power would be reduced you still probably wouldnt get
killed any more often.
As for bugs - Yes I agree that you should be able to override
lower level buffs and heals with higher level ones. If PPUs are
balanced to the level of other classes then the famous "tactics"
for taking down PPUs would no longer be necesary. Remove
those semi-exploits and lets use the intended tools for taking
down PPUs, such as HAB.
I dont want PPUs removed or destroyed, I want them balanced
so that we all can have fun, EVEN the PPUs. A game where PPUs
are more balanced will be more fun for them as well. Ultimately I
just want every class to be equally important in a group, PvP or
PvM, and I want PvM and PvP fights to be a challenge, where you
have to work your brain and your reflexes, there should be no
100% win scenarios where you dont even have to try, thats the
jist of my point. You should never get so comfortable that you
dont have to work your skills, because thats when the challange
and the fun leaves the game.
Original monk
07-01-04, 11:52
is this stuff starting again lol ?
ok then i better oil my hand allready :)
daamn lol my boss its birthday gotta go fo a sec
If someone needs a ppu with them to hunt they arent looking in the right places to hunt....
Sounds good, I can't see why you need a PPU to hunt much any way, as a Gen-Tank, I can solo all none cave mobs and solo the Viper King graves, Bat Queen caves and the Swamp caves, without a PPU, and that i sjust so much fun, PPU makes hunting sooooo boring.
In PvP, ur right, heal needs to be not so powerful, you nearly kill some one, THEN they get healed damn it and are at full health way to fast.
Like you said PPU shouldn't be taken out of the game. I think their self buffs and things are balanced, apart from the heal in PvP and buffs they give out should be not as efective as they are imo. Parashock is also way to powerful atm, but it is just an accident it being so powerful so we will see if if its still over powered when they fix it.
Each side has ppu's each side has the ability to get a "so called SUPER" heal i see balance why don't u
fix the freeze spells and balance is achived......
i like low tl heal and shelter since it takes skill and cordination...
nerfing the heal would leave us ppus to do what in pvp? dmg boost?
I dont think nc needs a lot of solo chars running around killing each other... ppus really bring in the TEAMPLAY in fights....
kthxbye
Canda and deac maybe you should try to read my post again
since I already covered those issues. Then apply some common
sense, problem solved.
my post was more aimed @ el barto but hey
Originally posted by Rade
...This in turn means that the only way to level (or do anything for that matter) properly is with a PPU.You can't seriously believe this. PPUs make it easy to POWER LEVEL but by no means are they required to level or hunt.
Originally posted by Rade
...the problem is that no other class is needed... its all about PPU+anything. If all classes were as needed as PPUs are then there would be no problem...The optimal team should contain one char of every class, simple as that.Well, I do agree that the other classes should be as essential as the PPUs, although I honestly don't have a clear plan of how this should be done.
Originally posted by Rade
Some people keep buzzing about the parashock, which indeed is annoying, but its not the biggest problem and has absolutely
nothing to do with the PvM imbalance. KK has already nerfed
parashock good and they said themselves that the increase in
shock effect was a mistake. When all the parashock spells have
their shock effect lessened to their original values again the
parashock will be fine.Amen. Close the book on parashock. It is fine.
Originally posted by Rade
Just think for yourself for a while: If all mobs were made easier, and PPUs heals were drastically nerfed, what would happen? You would have to think. Instead of crouching infront of a grim reaper with a weight on your fire button while you are watching tv you would have to use cover alot and know when to withdraw. I have been leveling a melee tank for a while, usually teamed with a rifle spy, without PPU, and its been fun. Surprisingly, we actually have a good time, because its hard. Thats what the beginning of Neocron was, the PvM was fun, because you had to think and move and use covers and time heals and whatnot. Thats not the case anymore, PPU removed that fun from PvM.Many people in my clan think I am a bit odd because I love going to MC5. I have 4 Hercs, 4 DSs, 4 RDs, 3 Hawkings, and 2 SAs, so I assure you it is not to get parts. I like it because a PPU cannot out-heal the damage of a single security guard, let alone several of them. Survival depends on the tactics you refer to--movement, cover, timing.
Instead of nerfing the heals of PPUs, I would prefer to see new "super" mobs added to the game. Some sort of 180/180 mob that capped characters could not possibly hunt without a team of 4+ (including several PPUs). Naturally, the reward should match the risk so these mobs should drop more techs than regular mobs, say anywhere from 1 or 2 to 8 or so. A PPU would NOT be able to out-heal the damage from these mobs and hunting them would require the very tactics you and I enjoy. Those that prefer to travel solo can still hunt WBs and the current 120/120 fire mobs.
I don’t know if you spend the majority of your time in smaller skirmishes or in large OP fights. But the last several large OP fights I have been in have been tremendous fun. As Ryuben stated in a recent post, I think that PvP is pretty well balanced at the moment. I honestly don't believe that nerfing a PPUs heal would have the effect you envision. Players do way too much damage right now--even to a fully buffed and sheltered runner. It would require an unrealistic amount of work on KKs part to rebalance weapon damage to the new heal rate.
Originally posted by RayBob
Instead of nerfing the heals of PPUs, I would prefer to see new "super" mobs added to the game. Some sort of 180/180 mob that capped characters could not possibly hunt without a team of 4+ (including several PPUs). Naturally, the reward should match the risk so these mobs should drop more techs than regular mobs, say anywhere from 1 or 2 to 8 or so. A PPU would NOT be able to out-heal the damage from these mobs and hunting them would require the very tactics you and I enjoy. Those that prefer to travel solo can still hunt WBs and the current 120/120 fire mobs.
This is exactly the problem, the challenge has to be scaled
upward all the time in order to cope with the completely
overpowered nature of the PPU. This in turn means that without
a PPU you are chanceless compared to people who have PPUs,
be at in PvP or leveling speed or anything.
well omfg diffrent chars do diffrent things well? onoz..
spy = tradeskill and solo hunting wbs..scouting too
pe= solo anything, great to hunt what ever with
tank op fight char with nice deffence
apu op fight char with lame deff
ppu buffer of tank and apu...
seems ok?
Originally posted by deac
seems ok?
Not the slightest?
Originally posted by Rade
Not the slightest?
why not? soo you want every diffrent class to be the same?
Originally posted by Rade
This is exactly the problem, the challenge has to be scaled
upward all the time in order to cope with the completely
overpowered nature of the PPU. This in turn means that without
a PPU you are chanceless compared to people who have PPUs,
be at in PvP or leveling speed or anything.
PPu's aren't getting more and more over powered so its not like a endless cycle that u have to keep making stronger mobs like ur suggesting
PPU’s are fine. Since the Devourer Flamer was released APU’s and PPU’s are not as much of a problem in OP Fights. In fact more and more tanks are turning up each day.
And for those monks that shout nerf the Devourer. STFU Monks are medium range fighters , if tanks get in amongst you with a Devourer at close range you all should start dropping like flies. Tanks can now Push the enemy back at OP fights or cause mass panic if they focus on the PPU’s and then work down the food chain.
Monks have been blessed in the past standing toe to toe with a HC or MC tank and laughing at them. Monks are Medium range fighters that’s what KK wanted.
Boosting the CS Targeting and Damage at VERY close range will push monks even further back to the distance there supposed to fight.
PE’s Job is to Aggro the rest of the force and look for week targets breaking away from the fight to finish off. SPY’s Hack and Scout OP’s for enemy. And Sniper from long range.
PPU’s Heal and shock are fine. But the number of PPU’s you bring to an OP can now reach critical mass because if a hand full of tanks rush in after them, Buffed up to buggery with antishock/antidote drug Panic will ensure in there ranks.
Ive seen it and done it. 1 tanks and PPU team up tearing up 2 PPU’s and 3 APUS mainly because they attacked the Devourer Flaming tank at close range. Yes the tank died but took the a APU and PPU with him his PPU keeped him alive and shocked the enemy enough for him to do it.. A Tank doing a Tank thing. 2 for 1 was good enough for me. (This was in a larger fight I was just focusing on one part of the overall battle of about 15 v 15 . 5 enemy monks clustered together and a Flaming tank runs into the group guns blazing and starts to rape them) and when an enemy PPU goes down the balance of battle will and should change.
Every char has a purpose now.
APU = Medium Distance Damage Dealer
PPU = Medium Distance Heal/Shock/ S & D Medic
Tanks = Long range Damage (AOE) to aggro the enemy
Tanks = Short range (Up-close and personal with a Dev/CS) Damage Dealer
SPY = Scout / Hacker / Trade skiller Long range Sniper
PE = General Purpose Does a bit of everything. Looks for weaken targets
I think the games is balanced more than ever before. Its now TANKMONK-O-CRON. THE TANK IS BACK on the battlefield where he belongs as a Monk Killers
shodanjr_gr
07-01-04, 15:45
Originally posted by Hayato
If someone needs a ppu with them to hunt they arent looking in the right places to hunt....
I agree, heck even Chaos caves are soloable with most classes (ive seen K4F do it when he was a spy!!!!)
Every day, a PPU's heal saves someone I'm shooting at.
Para in any form is still not a good thing. You talk about the increase in the effect of skill when the heal is nerfed, but it still won't do you any good if your skill is removed by the spell. Yes they say it was boosted accidently in the patch, but it wasn't really that much if you ask me.
I think your missing the point. The fact that PPU's can be killed with the devourer is irrelevant to thier importance. At this moment in time, a PPU is too important in PvP. As far as I can tell these days, you can predict (almost perfectly) who will win the fight by weighing up each sides PPU's. Never mind how skilled the other classes are, it makes absolutly no difference. If one side has more number, or more skilled PPU's they win. And this is what the problem is.
I personally don't like the nerf heal idea, because it is nerfing the ppu class. I would much sooner reduce the PPU's importance without nerfing the class. I think the best idea for this is to make shields selfcast. Or if that isn't popular make foreign buffs last 1/5th of the length, or 1/5th of the strength, or something. So that the PPU is still as invincible as ever, its merely his importance that has been nerfed.
But i'm really really sick and tired of seeing this attitude:
"Ok guys are we ready to rock?"
*General enthusiasic response*
"Ok lets do this."
"Wait, do we have any PPU's online?"
"Don't think so....."
"No we don't."
"Ok nevermind then, we'll come back later."
People are actually refusing to fight without ppu's, its stupendifyingly boring.
Plus from the PPU's themselves, PPUing is easily the most stressful proffession in this game. If someone dies its your fault, plain and simple. If you die your going to be laughed at. You have to manage upwards of 30 different spells in very low FPS enviroments, with each spell swap potentially leading to an item-morph or drag-over FRE. And finally, anyone who has a PPU can forget playing any other characters he has when PvPing, no one wants an APU, Spy, Tank or PE when you can be a PPU.
All in all this profession is simply bad.
Originally posted by Babes
Every char has a purpose now.
APU = Medium Distance Damage Dealer
PPU = Medium Distance Heal/Shock/ S & D Medic
Tanks = Long range Damage (AOE) to aggro the enemy
Tanks = Short range (Up-close and personal with a Dev/CS) Damage Dealer
SPY = Scout / Hacker / Trade skiller Long range Sniper
PE = General Purpose Does a bit of everything. Looks for weaken targets
I think the games is balanced more than ever before. Its now TANKMONK-O-CRON. THE TANK IS BACK on the battlefield where he belongs as a Monk Killers
AMEN this is how it should be
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 17:15
Babes..... I don't even know where to start. I think I won't.
Originally posted by RayBob
Well, I do agree that the other classes should be as essential as the PPUs, although I honestly don't have a clear plan of how this should be done.
I think I would quit NC if KK made each class as "essential" as ppus. "We have 5 pes, 5 ppus, 5 apus, but no tanks? Damn we can't op war then". That's basically what you're saying. No thanks. You're just going to get the server split into 2 super clans. It's bad enough certain clans can't even take ops, even though they have a billion of each class, because they lack ppus.
KK needs to bring down the importance of PPUs. And honestly, I don't think nerfing heal will do that.
Originally posted by Rade
This is exactly the problem, the challenge has to be scaled
upward all the time in order to cope with the completely
overpowered nature of the PPU. This in turn means that without
a PPU you are chanceless compared to people who have PPUs,
be at in PvP or leveling speed or anything.
Yup. For some reason people(mostly ppus and those with 45743854 ppus) think this is ok.
Originally posted by RayBob
Well, I do agree that the other classes should be as essential as the PPUs, although I honestly don't have a clear plan of how this should be done.
I think I would quit NC if KK made each class as "essential" as ppus. "We have 5 pes, 5 ppus, 5 apus, but no tanks? Damn we can't op war then". That's basically what you're saying. No thanks. You're just going to get the server split into 2 super clans. It's bad enough certain clans can't even take ops, even though they have a billion of each class, because they lack ppus.
KK needs to bring down the importance of PPUs. And honestly, I don't think nerfing heal will do that.
Originally posted by Rade
This is exactly the problem, the challenge has to be scaled
upward all the time in order to cope with the completely
overpowered nature of the PPU. This in turn means that without
a PPU you are chanceless compared to people who have PPUs,
be at in PvP or leveling speed or anything.
Yup. For some reason people(mostly ppus and those with 45743854 ppus) think this is ok.
Originally posted by deac
well omfg diffrent chars do diffrent things well? onoz..
spy = tradeskill and solo hunting wbs..scouting too
pe= solo anything, great to hunt what ever with
tank op fight char with nice deffence
apu op fight char with lame deff
ppu buffer of tank and apu...
seems ok?
Can you go to an op war without a spy?
Can you go to an op war without a pe?
Can you go to an op war without a tank?
Can you go to an op war without a ppu?
Hrmmm, which one did you answer no?
Originally posted by shardl0r
I think your missing the point. The fact that PPU's can be killed with the devourer is irrelevant to thier importance.
Be prepared to say this 5000 times. Some people just can't seem to get it.
Originally posted by shardl0r
"Ok guys are we ready to rock?"
*General enthusiasic response*
"Ok lets do this."
"Wait, do we have any PPU's online?"
"Don't think so....."
"No we don't."
"Ok nevermind then, we'll come back later."
YES exactly! I'm so sick of that shit. Teamgame my ass. In a team game, each class would have a little special something to add to the fight. This isn't a team game, it's a PPU game.
team=ppu in this game. :rolleyes:
Shad ur problem is yourself its u that won't go to a op war without a ppu other clans do it all the time hell SXR have even attacked our ops without a ppu and i give them respect for doing that. The fact that people like u won't go to a op war without a ppu is setting the imbalance urself because other clans that do go without a ppu have it balanced.
Then we go to pp where u hug the zone as if it were a tree and we were in the 60's shouting for peace. And even then u won't enter the zone unless theres a ppu or pe or someone to heal and give u a couple of buffs.
Do u not see its people like u causing the imbalance.
Now i expect my post to be cut down into word for word quotes so u get ur usual 3 metre length post that people can't be bothered to read but maybe think about this. Try creating a balance instead of moaning about it endlessly on forums cus unfortunately for us there is no ignore button on here
Originally posted by shardl0r
But i'm really really sick and tired of seeing this attitude:
"Ok guys are we ready to rock?"
*General enthusiasic response*
"Ok lets do this."
"Wait, do we have any PPU's online?"
"Don't think so....."
"No we don't."
"Ok nevermind then, we'll come back later."
You need fighters and hackers as much as PPU's
What about "Wait, do we have any Hackers online?"
What about "Wait, do we have enough damage Dealers online?"
PPU's can support upto 4-5 people in a fight would be a rule of thumb. if 15 people 3 PPUS would be required. Ive been in fights where we have too many PPUS and they have logged Fighters. At the end of the day PPU's cannt really kill anyone only fighters can.
What are looking for " A FAIR FIGHT " ...Theres nothing Fair in Love and war. If they have more PPU's well tough cookie your going to loose. Its a Fact of Life....Live with it.
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 17:34
Originally posted by Candaman
Shad ur problem is yourself its u that won't go to a op war without a ppu other clans do it all the time hell SXR have even attacked our ops without a ppu and i give them respect for doing that. The fact that people like u won't go to a op war without a ppu is setting the imbalance urself because other clans that do go without a ppu have it balanced.
SXR also was full of stealthing pes or spies. Let's see how long an apu lasts without a ppu vs a team with multiple ppus, especially those who like to paraspam. *cough*
I don't go to an op war without a ppu because it's stupid to do so when the enemy has multiple ppus. And you know damn well that's true, mr "let's bring 5 ppus to pp1".
Please tell me what other clans nowadays go to op wars without ppus. And how often do they do that. And do they actually win.
Originally posted by Candaman
Then we go to pp where u hug the zone as if it were a tree and we were in the 60's shouting for peace. And even then u won't enter the zone unless theres a ppu or pe or someone to heal and give u a couple of buffs.
Are you serious? I enter the zone all the goddamn time without a PPU. I "hug" it because YOU guys always have a damn ppu. I "hug" it because all I see is the blue swirly from a ppu as soon as I enter. I "hug" it when I hit 2 apus and see the golden flash indicating a shelter and then see a heal popped on them. And when I start giving the ppu a run for his money or don't let him rez someone, you bring like 2-3 more. Unbelievable. You're so much in denial it's not even funny. I'm one of the apus on pluto who rely the least on ppus. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Candaman
Do u not see its people like u causing the imbalance.
yea ok. 90% of the time I don't have a ppu. And *I* cause the imbalance. This is rich. Why can't you just be honest for once?
Originally posted by Candaman
Now i expect my post to be cut down into word for word quotes so u get ur usual 3 metre length post that people can't be bothered to read but maybe think about this.
Um, I respond to each point by quoting it then writing what I think. What's wrong with that?
:confused:
Originally posted by Candaman
Try creating a balance instead of moaning about it endlessly on forums cus unfortunately for us there is no ignore button on here
I strive for balance everyday. And yes there's an ignore button. click here (http://neocron.jafc.de/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=18124) to add me to ignore and stop whining already.
Ignore would be too easy u seem very ful of urself to say ur one of the apu's that least needs a ppu seeing as i hardly ever see u without one and the fact that people like urself are unwiling to even attempt to take a op without a ppu shows that its u causing the imbalance 2 apu's and a couple of pe's and some nice placement and u can hit anyone that comes up out of the ug.
FYI it was only one PE that attacked from SXR and that was carmen there were other apu's there.
I'm not saying lots of clans do it but i am saying that u are on forums complaining about it then being exactly what ur complaining about.
As for saying i bring 5 ppu's to pp i don't bring them if i'm on my ppu what do i need them for if i'm my apu i'll need one its just so many people have a desire to kill u they flock in from all over not my fault thats urs for ur reputation.
In PP there is more than just hugging the zone tactic if u opened ur mind and took ur blinkers off u mite see these other tactics but u don't.
And the problem with u breaking down what people say is that half the time u cut a sentance out for no reason and just post a smiley now wtf is the point in that.
The PPU is as bad as the server makes it if people will play more independantly then less imbalance but u can't dictate how people play and KK also can't nerf classes until they make people go on their own either.
Originally posted by Rade
One of the problem is the fact that the presence of the PPU escalates the power of alot of things. Look at MC5 for example, the only reason that MC5 has to be as hard as it is now is because of the PPU monks incredible defence and the ability they have to hand out this defence to others. The same goes for normal mobs and mobs in various dungeons. Beucase it would make to easy to kill them with a PPU at the current power, some things become very very hard to do without a PPU. This in turn means that the only way to level (or do anything for that matter) properly is with a PPU.Let me point out that mobs have had two boosts- life AND damage dealt. If PPUs where the issue, then the mobs would simply have been given more damage dealing abilities, to counter the heals. But mobs have received more life as well... why? Because of the insane damage that players can deal. And that is something that you dont address here on in the PvP part of this- decreasing the heals of PPUs proxy boosts the damage of APUs.
Now if that would remain balanced, then cool. I just wanted to bring that up- that right now we have insane heals, but insane damage dealers as well.
Now, you could argue that this is a team based game but the problem is not that KK is enforcing teamplay, the problem is that no other class is needed, its all about PPU+anything. If all classes were as needed as PPUs are then there would be no problem. Just as an example, if you needed PEs for rez, Tanks to keep aggro from someone whos vulnerable and spies for some weird damage boost sanctum like effect then there could be balance, you would want all classes. Now Im definately not saying that the spells should be redistributed in that fashion, its just an example. The optimal team should contain one char of every class, simple as that.Look beyond JUST combat, and the optimal team is close to being one of every class.
First point that has to made- the PPU is the only class that REQUIRES a second class to be present. PPUs cannot run off and ignore everyone else and solo the Chaos Caves like a tank can. Pure PPUs simply cannot level without all of the other classes.
Second, if we look to combat, you shouldnt view it as classes, you should view it as roles: offense/defense/support. PPUs fill the defense role, and any/every other class can file the offense and support roles.
If we look beyond combat, tradeskillers/hackers/etc. are needed, and every class can participate in that was well.
So overall, YES, EVERY other class is needed if you are the PPU. A PPU needs a tank/spy/PE equally, for alone a PPU is worthless. You say PPU+anything as if thats bad- well its good for the anything, because that means everyone can participate in PPU+anything, and its good for the PPU because they are included.
But in order to mob, you at a minimal level only need a SINGLE thing- offense. And PPUs cannot provide that.
Now, this is not enough, the major imbalance with PPUs is the heal. The damage reduction they have and can give to others is fine, it doesnt really make that huge of a difference, the problem comes when you throw a cap holy heal into the equation. Mobs are outhealed, and all work nullified when someone you have been fighting for a while suddenly bounce up to full health. There is no way you can counter that, no way to stop it and no way to fight against it.I dont think you can single out the heal really. Perhaps a combo of S/D/Heal, but not heal alone. Maybe a single mob can be outhealed... but overall, I think you are simplifying the role of the PPU monk. Its not that you just slap a holy heal on someone and they cannot ever be killed. Maybe I am just taking this the wrong way though.
If you dont consider shelter/deflector, is the holy heal still overpowered when compared to a Cursed Soul or Holy Lightning?
If so, then lets address the heal. If not, then we need to look at a more overall change (if a change is even needed).
I am ALL for balance changes, as long as they dont screw over the 42/40 ranked PPUs, like the one I currently have, that have a pretty challenging time continually buffing and healing a small group of similar ranked chars when fighting a slew of Launcher Cyclopses. :)
Some people keep buzzing about the parashock, which indeed is annoying, but its not the biggest problem and has absolutely nothing to do with the PvM imbalance. KK has already nerfed parashock good and they said themselves that the increase in shock effect was a mistake. When all the parashock spells have their shock effect lessened to their original values again the parashock will be fine.Agreed.
Just think for yourself for a while: If all mobs were made easier, and PPUs heals were drastically nerfed, what would happen? You would have to think. Instead of crouching infront of a grim reaper with a weight on your fire button while you are watching tv you would have to use cover alot and know when to withdraw. I have been leveling a melee tank for a while, usually teamed with a rifle spy, without PPU, and its been fun. Surprisingly, we actually have a good time, because its hard. Thats what the beginning of Neocron was, the PvM was fun, because you had to think and move and use covers and time heals and whatnot. Thats not the case anymore, PPU removed that fun from PvM.I am not sure how much more you would have to think- perhaps in some situations with some mobs, but not across the board.
Remember you indicate above that mob difficulty was raised due to PPUs.. if thats the case, decreasing PPUs AND descreasing mobs at the same time wouldn't bring about any change. If you want to think more, you would want mobs to stay the same and PPUs to be lessened.
And please keep in mind that fun is relative. I have fun trying (note I said trying) to keep my buds alive when we are out mobbing. Maybe if we attacked low level mobs like we would WITHOUT a PPU it would be boring... but if you have a PPU, and attack higher level mobs than you would otherwise, its still quite challenging and fun. Maybe the fun lesseds with a CAPPED PPU... but with where I am now, there is still a lot of fun and challenge involved. And since you mentioned you have been levelling a melee tank, then I think my input here is appropriate, since I too am talking about levelling, rather than endgame.
I have NO problem acknowledging the fact that you, Rade, have fun when things are challenging. I just hope that you, Rade, acknowledge that others can have fun via different means.
Also, are you really saying that with a mid-level PPU strapped to your melee tank, you couldn't find challenging mobs to hunt???? If you fight the same mobs with a PPU that you would fight without one, then of course the game wont be challenging. But why would you do that?
Dribble Joy
07-01-04, 18:06
*cough* no foreign shields *cough*
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 18:15
Originally posted by Candaman
Ignore would be too easy u seem very ful of urself to say ur one of the apu's that least needs a ppu seeing as i hardly ever see u without one .
You are such a blatant LIAR. That is so pathetic.
And btw I said I rely the least on ppus. Not like some people who don't even travel without one, like many in your clan.
And don't take to me about needing a ppu.... you know what let me not derail this thread with insults about your clan, however true they may be.
And if ignore is too easy, why you bitching about it?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Candaman
FYI it was only one PE that attacked from SXR and that was carmen there were other apu's there.
How many battles you talking about? 1? 2?
:rolleyes:
And did they win or not?
Originally posted by Candaman
I'm not saying lots of clans do it but i am saying that u are on forums complaining about it then being exactly what ur complaining about.
90% of the time I'm without a PPU. This is a FACT. You can ask the people who play with me if this is true. You rarely see me. You usually die when you see me though, :lol:
Like that time at MB you were talking shit to me then dropped faster than Nidhogg's hammer on someone who makes a homophobic flame.
Originally posted by Candaman
As for saying i bring 5 ppu's to pp i don't bring them if i'm on my ppu what do i need them for if i'm my apu i'll need one its just so many people have a desire to kill u they flock in from all over not my fault thats urs for ur reputation.
rofl
:lol:
Please stop lying. Your clan is known for bringing a billion ppus to a fight. You know how many damn times I came to pp1 and you guys had one PPU, then when things start to get hot you bring even MORE ppus. You know how many times i Killed someone, wouldn't let them get rezzed, then they stay there and I see White locust, roadie, etc..... The usual ppu gang who come to ensure ONE person gets rezzed.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Candaman
In PP there is more than just hugging the zone tactic if u opened ur mind and took ur blinkers off u mite see these other tactics but u don't.
omg this is rich.
Originally posted by Candaman
And the problem with u breaking down what people say is that half the time u cut a sentance out for no reason and just post a smiley now wtf is the point in that.
That shows how little you read. 95% of the time I post the full sentence of what i'm responding to.
God do you even pay attention to anything? Your about as deep as a lettuce, you can't even analyze properly and you LIE!
Originally posted by Candaman
The PPU is as bad as the server makes it if people will play more independantly then less imbalance but u can't dictate how people play and KK also can't nerf classes until they make people go on their own either.
You are so blind. It's unbelievable.
You know what, don't put me on your ignore list then, i'll put you on mine.
:rolleyes:
EDIT: to avoid double post, here's more.....
Originally posted by Strych9
If PPUs where the issue, then the mobs would simply have been given more damage dealing abilities, to counter the heals.
I don't think you understood rade's point.
Leveling mobs aren't going to be given enough damage to counter the heals, because then leveling solo would be impossible.
So Rade is right in that PPUs play a great role in how strong a mob is. I'm sure faction guards were made as strong as they are now, incase a player has a PPU.
Originally posted by Strych9
decreasing the heals of PPUs proxy boosts the damage of APUs.
That's stretching it and you know it. Using that logic, it "proxy boosts" the damage of every class then.
Originally posted by Strych9
So overall, YES, EVERY other class is needed if you are the PPU. A PPU needs a tank/spy/PE equally, for alone a PPU is worthless. You say PPU+anything as if thats bad- well its good for the anything, because that means everyone can participate in PPU+anything, and its good for the PPU because they are included.
I disagree. For PvM or PvP, a ppu needs SOMEONE who deals damage. Whereas for op wars or team battles, if the enemy has a ppu then you NEED one realisticly. No one can even come close to the role a PPU offers. Whereas the other 3 classes can deal damage.
You forget that making ppu+anything a requirement is bad. Because unlike the ppu who just needs 1 of the other 3 classes, the other classes need a ppu. Which is a SPECIFIC subclass of a class.
Originally posted by Strych9
If you dont consider shelter/deflector, is the holy heal still overpowered when compared to a Cursed Soul or Holy Lightning?
No, which is why I suggested self-cast shields to balance the overimportance of ppu monks in pvp. PvM will become more of a challenge with a ppu instead of a cakewalk. The only tweak that would be needed is mc5. And ppus would STILL be important.
So I agree, that the heal itself really isn't the prob.
shad you play the wrong class.... go pe then you wont need a ppu or lom to ppu. problem solved you would never be without one....
YOU CANT HAVE THE CAKE AND EAT IT AT THE SAME TIME or something like that...
ppu is seldom fun, but if you want to be able to op fight some one needs to do it. If your clan cant find enuff ppus to op fight then you have no place at a op fight in the first place.
kthxbye
If they nerf the ppu heal they have to unnerf the hybrid whoes already realled down cause of those apu/ppu lowering each other if they nerf the heal now too, hybrid is even more gimped
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 18:28
Originally posted by deac
shad you play the wrong class.... go pe then you wont need a ppu or lom to ppu. problem solved you would never be without one....
Pay attention. I don't need a ppu, unless the enemy has one. I'm talking about a competent ppu.
ANYBODY without a ppu is screwed vs an enemy with a competent ppu.
Rade is a PE, and rade shares a similar attitude to mine.
Originally posted by deac
ppu is seldom fun, but if you want to be able to op fight some one needs to do it. If your clan cant find enuff ppus to op fight then you have no place in a op fight in the first place.
wow, thanks for missing the point by a goddamn mile.
:rolleyes:
Shad i fail to understand how u can post 4 reem's worth of come back yet not have a single point in it
The Holy Heal has always been what sets not only PPUs a step above the rest, but also hybrids. Your right in saying it would achieve balance in the game, but I seriously doubt it will happen. I've been pushing for no parashock myself but I doubt that will happen either. And I guess Id rather see Holy Heal balanced first.
All the buffs in the world are irrelevant. Whenever I level in a group in the Chaos Caves it pisses me off when people constantly ask for like 5 buffs each. I try to tell them, look man, its not my Holy Deflector thats keeping you alive, its the Holy Heal. So turn around, start shooting, and dont friggin open your mouth again.
I think buffs are PERFECT where they are at now. I dont think removing foreign buffs would truly accomplish what we need. It would only serve to reduce the diminishing effects Gentanks and APUs have in team battles, where as reducing Holy Heal would equalize the classes far better.
I guess tbh I could live with parashock in the game if Holy Heal was diminished. It would bring some sorely needed balance to the game.
5 Stars.
i don't know what team u go with but as a ppu i would rather have a holy shelt and def and a blessed heal than a blessed shelt and def and a holy heal whether it caving, pvp anything holy heal is not the imbalance u antibuff a ppu and let him cast heal he ain't out healing nutting he'll drop like a spy without s d it is not the heal it is the combo of S,D and heal
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 18:54
Honestly Jest, I don't see what changing heal is supposed to do. How will it bring balance in anyway?
PPUs will still be super important.
:confused:
Originally posted by Candaman
i don't know what team u go with but as a ppu i would rather have a holy shelt and def and a blessed heal than a blessed shelt and def and a holy heal whether it caving, pvp anything holy heal is not the imbalance u antibuff a ppu and let him cast heal he ain't out healing nutting he'll drop like a spy without s d it is not the heal it is the combo of S,D and heal I guess my post sounded like I thought HH was the only thing. It definitely isnt. My caves leveling scenario was directed more when Im the only PPU and Im with like 6 other people. Where I dont have the tiem nor the psi pool to both buff and heal every one. So I just heal.
Your right that the combination is what keeping people alive but if my PPU was out fighting, and say a spell got to 0% condition and broke, the LAST spell I would want that to happen to is Holy Heal. Comparing Holy S/D + Blessed H with Blessed S/D + Holy H is not really the point of the thread, though personally Id disagree with that statement.
Lets look at the hybrid. You think its the Holy S/D that is keeping the hybrid alive? NOOOOOO. Its the heal. Thats the entire premise of the hybrid char, without high level heal they are nothing.
Edit:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Honestly Jest, I don't see what changing heal is supposed to do. How will it bring balance in anyway?
PPUs will still be super important.
:confused: Hmmm Shad how many times have you been fighting against a team with a PPU and almost killed the enemy when the PPU tags a heal on that person and you watch their hit points go up to max in a few seconds.
For example lets say you take three equally skilled tanks and make it 2 vs 1. One PPU will be continually Holy Healing the one tank, and another PPU will shelter/deflect/long buff the other two tanks. I havent tested it or anything but I would bet my life the one tank would win every single time.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
ANYBODY without a ppu is screwed vs an enemy with a competent ppu.
well thank god for that...
Originally posted by deac
well thank god for that...
So you want the PPU to be more important than any other char,
good thing that you at least say it straight so that I can ignore
you in PPU discussions from now on.
Posted by Candaman
...people (like u) won't go to a op war without a ppu is setting the imbalance urself because other clans that do go without a ppu have it balanced...
That just doesn't make any sense logically (ignoring your general english, since its quite clear it isn't your first language, and is a hell of a lot better than my xxxxx). What you are saying is that the clans who don't go to war because they don't have enough PPU's online and the enemy does are imbalancing the PPU class....
What does that have to do with anything? The reason clans won't go to war if they don't have any PPU's is because they have LOST before they even start. Thats the whole point of the matter, PPU's should not soley decide the outcome of an op war. 2 APUs and a PPU team could very probably take out a team of up 8 - 10 other people who have no PPU, assuming everyone is elite. That PPU allows you to win against 3:1 odds which is ridiculous. To put it simply, I have never seen a PPUless force beat a PPU'd force, unless they are stupidly outnumbered. But even then, think about how many people it takes to take out an APU/PPU team at the moment. Ok, now swap that PPU for a PE or a Tank, and rethink how many people...
Posted by Babes
...You need fighters and hackers as much as PPU's...
Almost every PPU I know hacks. With spy 3 they can achieve elite hacking with very little skill input.
So tell me how you would beat a team of 10 PPU's who hack and are taking your op.
Posted by deac
...ppu is seldom fun, but if you want to be able to op fight some one needs to do it {PPU} . If your clan cant find enuff ppus to op fight then you have no place at a op fight in the first place...
That is the point. That is what this is all about, PPU's are far too important. As important as hackers. Hell, i've even been to an op fight where I was the only hacker because we had a record number of PPU's on. No one cared whether we could hack the Op or not, we had enough PPU's that we knew we wouldn't lose and went for it. I mean, am I the only one who thinks thats totally ridiculous? Rather than organisation and tactics winning the day, we attack an op without enough hackers because we had more PPU's than the defending clan, and hey, guess what, we won.
<EDIT>: I am with SD, as he said in his post below. I want to see PPU's importance relieved, not the class nerfed. Thats why I think foreign cast spells are ALL reduced to 1/5th or 1/6th or something efficiency would be far better than nerfing heal. The PPU should still be as invincible as he is today, its merely his effect on other people that should be toned down.
I've been playing my PPU for too long now to see it get nerfed out of existance. PPU's as they are at the moment are fine, they are the toughest and least dangerous class at the moment, assuming parashock is reduced to its old strength (because its current strength is a bug right?) which is balanced. Its what they bring to a team situation that is way out of proportion.
So in summary, nerf the importance of the PPU, not the PPU itself.
Oh and adding to this is my rez idea:
Rez is still as important now as it ever was = bad.
Rez should be returned to how it was before the patch = good.
Rez should be chanced based, rez has a 75% chance of working correctly. Note this chance is the same for regular and holy rez, to stop normal rez from being completely deprecated.
If the rez works properly, your revived with 50% health (normal rez) or full health (holy rez).
If rez fails you are revived with a variable amount of SI, from 50% to 100%, always more than a GR.
This means, if you want to get rezzed, your imps don't pop which is good, but theres a chance that you will suffer HUGE SI (i.e. the PPU properly bungled up the ressurection). So much so, that it might be better to GR, which is a perfect mechanical machine, so it always gets it right (40% SI), but never gets lucky either like the ressurection artist that the PPU is (0% SI).
This makes rez more of a gamble, and less of a omg no rez i log uot adn wiat 4 ppu 2 com onlin!!!1!1
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 19:03
Originally posted by Jest
Edit:
Hmmm Shad how many times have you been fighting against a team with a PPU and almost killed the enemy when the PPU tags a heal on that person and you watch their hit points go up to max in a few seconds.
Maybe you should ask someone else that. :p
I tend to debuff everyone I attack. So they usually drop quiclky and before they can be resheltered+ healed.
But their are times that i almost kill a ppu and his own holy heal saves him. :D
Originally posted by Jest
For example lets say you take three equally skilled tanks and make it 2 vs 1. One PPU will be continually Holy Healing the one tank, and another PPU will shelter/deflect/long buff the other two tanks. I havent tested it or anything but I would bet my life the one tank would win every single time.
Probably. But to me you're just changing the way battles are a fought a bit. To me the ppu would still be wayy too needed and the 'core' problem IMO would still be there.
It's like complaining that parashock lasts 30 seconds and saying it should last 15. Would it really make much of a difference?
And how much do you think they would tone the holy heal? I doubt they would tone it much.
I want ppus to be less important, that's it. I don't want 500 nerfs on them.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
And how much do you think they would tone the holy heal? I doubt they would tone it much.
I want ppus to be less important, that's it. I don't want 500 nerfs on them. Well one, if it wouldnt tone them down that much then I doubt it would be considered equal to 500 nerfs. :p But in all seriousness I doubt want my PPU nerfed either, I want him balanced.
You are completely right in saying even reducing the Holy/Blessed Heal would not achieve ultimate balance. PPUs would still be important, the most important still. We still would not have a completely equal setting where every class is equally wanted as in Rade's original post. But personally, I think thats as close as we are going to get. The only way to get even closer to that is to remove parashock but thats a whole other broken record that won't happen anyway.
Originally posted by shardl0r
Almost every PPU I know hacks. With spy 3 they can achieve elite hacking with very little skill input.
So tell me how you would beat a team of 10 PPU's who hack and are taking your op.
EASY a stun turret and a gat turret and me with a dev in the hack house and may be a APU to anti-buff you all
:eek:
Babes, with the common knowledge of the devourer now its not a very good weapon to attack PPU's with. Its great against PPU's who haven't seen one yet, but its not difficult to spec against it and make it as impotent as the speed gat or SH.
I repeat, Devourer is great against unprepared PPU's.
Devourer is not all that, a modded CS is still, IMO, the best PPU killer in the game.
Edit: Oh and a single APU to antibuff us all? A single APU. A single APU is beaten by a single PPU :) And your tank would be die before you could kill a single PPU.
10x + 10y + 10z = Dead tank
where x = Damage boost, y = Holy para and z = Holy parabolt :P
I think the general approach her is flawed. You cannot compare a PURE support class to a non-support class in terms of importance.
YES PPUs are valuable. As long as their main role is to HELP OTHER CLASSES they always WILL be valuable. Even if you remove the heals altogether... as long as PPUs can help other runners in some way, it will ALWAYS be the case that a group with a PPU will have the advantage over a group without one. Even if a PPU ONLY had damage boost as a spell... the team with a PPU would STILL have the advantage. You would STILL have three classes that deal damage, and only one that amplifies it.
Yes you can get by without a tank. Why? Cause the tank's firepower can be replaced by a Spy or PE or an APU. But no one can replace the supportive role of the PPU.
And thats the case no matter HOW small the role of the PPU is rendered.
So no, the classes can never be equal in terms of importance unless all four of them have no traits that the others do. As it is right now... we have three damage dealers and one damage reducer/preventer/remover.
Originally posted by Strych9
I think the general approach her is flawed. You cannot compare a PURE support class to a non-support class in terms of importance.
YES PPUs are valuable. As long as their main role is to HELP OTHER CLASSES they always WILL be valuable. Even if you remove the heals altogether... as long as PPUs can help other runners in some way, it will ALWAYS be the case that a group with a PPU will have the advantage over a group without one. Even if a PPU ONLY had damage boost as a spell... the team with a PPU would STILL have the advantage. You would STILL have three classes that deal damage, and only one that amplifies it.
Thats definitely true, which is why I even said in my last post the PPU will never be balanced with the other classes. But it really does need to be balanced within some amount of reason. Not so much that the entire game hinges on the support of a single class.
Do away with shelter and deflect... and para.... have heals, then combat/support/extra buffs (ie hc 3, rc 3 spy 3 etc etc).... or make holy level buffs equal to Blessed and pes still have their standards...but i think the holy shields are just to extreme in what they offer
So the ppu boosts combat abilities and generally supports his team by healing and making them higher in combat stats instead of gifting them with Godly Shields..... which can only be removed by the other subclass of this class.....
/me remembers back in the days when clans rarely had ppus... bonus to have one, but it wasnt a Necessity for a battle.....
Originally posted by shardl0r
That just doesn't make any sense logically (ignoring your general english, since its quite clear it isn't your first language, and is a hell of a lot better than my xxxxx). What you are saying is that the clans who don't go to war because they don't have enough PPU's online and the enemy does are imbalancing the PPU class....
Nice assumption i've only lived in the UK for 20yrs (yes i'm 20) my point is that how do u know u've lost when u don't even try. Its the defeatist attitude onoz we don't have any ppu's don't matter lets wait a bit and wait for some to get on. So u are setting ppu's as the most important class.
Where as it mite be 3 pe's and a apu attacking ur op and u don't even go because u have no ppu's. Don't u think the clan that goes to defend / attack a op is balancing by saying we can do this without a ppu and even if we lose oh well we tried nothing lost instead of the onoz no ppu's i don't wanna gr out wreck all my lovely 120/120 imps.
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 20:25
Originally posted by Strych9
So no, the classes can never be equal in terms of importance unless all four of them have no traits that the others do. As it is right now... we have three damage dealers and one damage reducer/preventer/remover.
I'm not asking them to be equal. I'm asking for the PPU to have a smaller role. Sure he'll still be unique and important, but he shouldn't be to the degree he is now. It's just outrageous. And being a pure support class is no excuse.
Originally posted by LTA
bonus to have one, but it wasnt a Necessity for a battle.....
THIS is what I want. THIS is what ppus should be.
well don't u think it can be like that again shad if clans go to fites without a ppu instead of waiting for one to log on. Its not a case of changing the ppu themselves its about increasing the ball size of the modern day players.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I'm not asking them to be equal. I'm asking for the PPU to have a smaller role. Sure he'll still be unique and important, but he shouldn't be to the degree he is now. It's just outrageous. And being a pure support class is no excuse.It is an excuse. Its THE excuse.
But lets go with what you say. You indicate you want the role to be smaller.
Give us some criteria so we will know when the PPU's importance is "small enough" for you to be happy.
I dont see how the degree of the support will make a huge difference one way or the other. It depends what you get used to.
Right now, Holy Heals are uber. So we remove holy heals lets say- what will stop the perception from becoming that Blessed Heals are uber at some point? Once people get used to Blessed Heals as being the best, then they will STILL moan about them, wont they? A tank with a Blessed Heal is STILL gonna be harder to kill than a tank with no heal.
And its not like right now anyone is invulnerable. Fights DO happen. Runners ARE killed, even with the existence of Holy Heal.
So what I want to know is this: how will we know (what criteria do we have) when the PPU is no longer "too important"????
Originally posted by Candaman
well don't u think it can be like that again shad if clans go to fites without a ppu instead of waiting for one to log on. Its not a case of changing the ppu themselves its about increasing the ball size of the modern day players.
You can try till your blue in the face.... if they have a ppu and you dont it's going to hurt a-lot.....
It's probably not even as much people can't fight em it's they can't be bothered to fight them.... holy shelts, heals against your nothing or pe heals O_o
All the enemy ppu has to do is concentrate on keeping a few of his tem alive against a enemy lacking one.... he dosen't even need to buff his team he buffs a apu or/and a couple of tanks and that little force will rip the other team apart hell if i could pick a small team of like 1 ppu, 2 tanks which would hammer a full army if they had no ppu.....the Holy shelter and deflect are that effective at rendering dmg close to nill.... then holy heal to take of all that work you just done hurting someone.... and dont come with the anti buff neither.... 2 tanks with a cs vs dmg boosted apu.
It's not about trying... it's about the fact it's almost impossible to do in the first place
i stick with my idea.... nerf shelt and deflect or make em pvm :p
Shadow Dancer
07-01-04, 20:50
Originally posted by Strych9
I dont see how the degree of the support will make a huge difference one way or the other. It depends what you get used to.
When you're no longer fucked without a ppu.
When you're no longer fucked when you have 1 ppu and the enemy has 5, even if you have a well spread out team of pes/tanks/etc..
An enemy should have an advantage when they have a ppu. But the advantage has to be within reason.
Originally posted by Strych9
Right now, Holy Heals are uber. So we remove holy heals lets say- what will stop the perception from becoming that Blessed Heals are uber at some point? Once people get used to Blessed Heals as being the best, then they will STILL moan about them, wont they? A tank with a Blessed Heal is STILL gonna be harder to kill than a tank with no heal.
Well I don't think changing heal will do much. I already said that.
Originally posted by Strych9
So what I want to know is this: how will we know (what criteria do we have) when the PPU is no longer "too important"????
It's hard to say. But we won't know until we actually do something. Unfortunately KK seems ot take 5 years to even acknowldge a problem, another 5 to think of a solution, then another 5 implementing it.
Personally, I think making parashock PvM only and making shields self-cast will go along way to balancing out ppus.
It would be nice if KK could try it on the test server.
Posted by Candaman
Nice assumption i've only lived in the UK for 20yrs (yes i'm 20)
Then please type like one. It helps bring more weight to your argument if your points are easily read mate, and it means people don't just skip any long passages you've typed because they are a small exercise in cryptography. And none of this "i typ lik this cuz it qwika", because the small (and I do mean small) amount of time you spend shortening words is negated by the time people have to spend trying to read it, and/or skipping it.
Posted by Candaman
...how do u know u've lost when u don't even try...
From past experiences. You know the old fool me once, fool me twice adage? It applies here. There IS no fun in fighting a PPU'd force, its an exercise in frustration.
Posted by Candaman
...Its the defeatist attitude...
Which comes from....thats right, fighting PPU'd forces without a PPU!
Posted by Candaman
...Where as it mite be 3 pe's and a apu attacking ur op and u don't even go because u have no ppu's...
Haha, ok now your taking things to the extreme. Suprisngly, I don't spend my time cooped up in my apartment quaking in fear at the very thought of a PPU (I play one anyway, and she's certainly not scared of anything ;P ). If someone attacks an op, they will be scouted, but there is no point in wasting everyones time if they're PPU count is significantly higher than ours. We know what happens, we've been through it countless times before.
That said, I have never seen ops attacked by a PPUless force.
I would quite like to start a spy. Can you imagine what the response would be if I asked "Ok guys, do you need a PPU or a rifle spy?"
Answer:
"Your joking right??"
Posted by Strych9
...Give us some criteria so we will know when the PPU's importance is "small enough" for you to be happy...
If foriegn buffs were far less powerful (say they work at 25% effeciency), prims stay the same as they are now.
PPU is still a huge boost, due to the buffs, prims, parashock, DB and Carthisis (I honestly don't understand why we get a Carth sanctum, and apu's don't get an antibuff sanctum....), but having one isn't the be all and end all, it merely toughens your opponent.
It also means that having more than a couple would be a waste of players.
I personally believe that the best balance for a PPU would be to put the foreign buff strength back up to full power(same as selfcast) and make monks unbuffable. This, to me, would truely balance the class. They would be a huge boost to the team, but very vulnerable - the true teamplayer, one who the team needs, but who also needs the team. It would also mean much more teamskill is needed, since an unorganised team would be ripped apart. This would mean that PPU's would make a team invincible, but only if they could defend those said PPU's.
It would also balance out APU's too, seperate the truely skilled APU's from the noobs with buffs.
But I know this idea isn't popular because the OMG MY PPU CNA DO NOO DAMAG HE MSUT BE INVANCIBLAL!!!1!1 idea is so popular.
Originally posted by LTA
You can try till your blue in the face.... if they have a ppu and you dont it's going to hurt a-lot.....
It's probably not even as much people can't fight em it's they can't be bothered to fight them.... holy shelts, heals against your nothing or pe heals O_o
All the enemy ppu has to do is concentrate on keeping a few of his tem alive against a enemy lacking one.... he dosen't even need to buff his team he buffs a apu or/and a couple of tanks and that little force will rip the other team apart hell if i could pick a small team of like 1 ppu, 2 tanks which would hammer a full army if they had no ppu.....the Holy shelter and deflect are that effective at rendering dmg close to nill.... then holy heal to take of all that work you just done hurting someone.... and dont come with the anti buff neither.... 2 tanks with a cs vs dmg boosted apu.
It's not about trying... it's about the fact it's almost impossible to do in the first place
So the REAL problem then is that clans can be arsed to prepare a proper group of runners to attack or defend an op?
What happens when both sides have a single PPU? Why do all of the examples like this ALWAYS end up comparing a team with a PPU to a team without? Or why is it no one ever says that one of the sides would have an APU anti buffing whoever the PPU buffs? Are ALL clan battles magically fought by a team with a PPU and the other team without a PPU or APU? Oh wait, you mention an APU.. but magically its only with 2 CD tanks vs a damage boosted APU. My bad.
EVERYONE whines about the numbers of PPUs in the game and the effect they have... yet in these examples a PPU is always missing from one of the sides???? Funny how that works, eh? ;)
Originally posted by LTA
All the enemy ppu has to do is concentrate on keeping a few of his tem alive against a enemy lacking one....
Keeping a few of his team alive? o_O He has to keep all of his team alive.
Rezzing is totally out of the picture now. The PPU is totally unimportant and should be totally ignored until the last on the battlefield, unless they are stupid enough to attempt a rez in which case everyone open up on them.
the Holy shelter and deflect are that effective at rendering dmg close to nill....
No not really. Depends on the damage used. PSI attack for example pretty much ignores buffs.
I can only assume that the majority of fights goes like..
3vs3 people meet, each fight 1 v 1.
Any decent op fight I have seen. 3 vs 3 people meet all 3 attack one target. If its a PPU they are left for last. While they may keep themselves alive against those odds, they can't do to thier team mates easily.
But then you have anti-buff to take out the team (not the PPU), dropped a tanks shields/buffs then anti-heal while someone whacks on them. There PPU won't be keeping them alive.
Some people seem to think "I can't kill the PPU, therefore I cannot kill thier team". Total BS.
Incidently... if the PPU still has a huge role why is it I am poking more people then actually rezzing them? Obviously they are not getting rezzed by a PPU and they don't appear to be able to stay alive (with a PPU in tow too).
Seeing as I have seen small teams totally rape groups of players with PPU's I can only assume that some people really suck when it comes to fighting.
And I guess Id rather see Holy Heal balanced first.
Anti-Heal. Works wonders.
Originally posted by shardl0r
If foriegn buffs were far less powerful (say they work at 25% effeciency), prims stay the same as they are now.
PPU is still a huge boost, due to the buffs, prims, parashock, DB and Carthisis (I honestly don't understand why we get a Carth sanctum, and apu's don't get an antibuff sanctum....), but having one isn't the be all and end all, it merely toughens your opponent.
It also means that having more than a couple would be a waste of players.Why do you say 25%? Is there some sort of calculation behind that, or is it just a guess?
So you mean just decrease the efficiency of foreign cast buffs by a quarter, correct?
I wouldnt mind that- but I am still not sure that would solve the "problem" with PPUs. Even in what you say above, your whimsical scenario of "squad with no PPUs vs squad with PPUs" would remain the same. The squad with PPUs with still have a huge advantage.
Now if we have reason to believe that the 25% reduction would be enough to make players still killable then cool- lets go for it.
I personally believe that the best balance for a PPU would be to put the foreign buff strength back up to full power(same as selfcast) and make monks unbuffable. This, to me, would truely balance the class. They would be a huge boost to the team, but very vulnerable - the true teamplayer, one who the team needs, but who also needs the team. It would also mean much more teamskill is needed, since an unorganised team would be ripped apart. This would mean that PPU's would make a team invincible, but only if they could defend those said PPU's.
It would also balance out APU's too, seperate the truely skilled APU's from the noobs with buffs.Forget the idea that the runner in question is a PPU. Lets take a Spy. Put the Spy in the middle of any large conflict, and tell the enemy team that they must kill the Spy first. The team with the Spy must defend that Spy and make sure he doesnt die AND they must try and kill the enemy team at the same time. The Spy must stay within sight and range of his own team.
How long do you suppose that Spy will last?
Come on now, while I appreciate the idea you state, that would simply NEVER work. Unbuffable? That is completely impractical. All it would take is a single attack from an APU monk (really, a single attack from a LOT of different types of runners) and the PPU is dead. And you cannot stop runners from attacking. Thats just nuts to even think about doing, and FAR from balanced.
For fun, take a monk and with NO buffs of any kind see the many different way you can kill the monk with minimal effort and time.
If the monk took ANY effort to kill that would be one thing. But the reason the skills for the monk are layed out as they are is that it assumes protection from buffs.
Plus, this idea goes against what you said above as the solution (removing 25%).
But I know this idea isn't popular because the OMG MY PPU CNA DO NOO DAMAG HE MSUT BE INVANCIBLAL!!!1!1 idea is so popular. Yeah... it sure is silly to think a support char can keep themselves alive. :rolleyes:
And that argument DOES make sense. PPU monks MUST rely on teams for levelling. They have zero offense, and poor armor. Removing the ability to heal and cast buffs on your own PPU will balance the class out HOW exactly?
The 25% reduction idea makes 1000x more sense than removing the ability to self buff.
Originally posted by Strych9
So the REAL problem then is that clans can be arsed to prepare a proper group of runners to attack or defend an op?
What happens when both sides have a single PPU? Why do all of the examples like this ALWAYS end up comparing a team with a PPU to a team without? Or why is it no one ever says that one of the sides would have an APU anti buffing whoever the PPU buffs? Are ALL clan battles magically fought by a team with a PPU and the other team without a PPU or APU? Oh wait, you mention an APU.. but magically its only with 2 CD tanks vs a damage boosted APU. My bad.
EVERYONE whines about the numbers of PPUs in the game and the effect they have... yet in these examples a PPU is always missing from one of the sides???? Funny how that works, eh? ;)
Yeah great point O_o
If you read what i QUOTED then you would see i was on about, bearing the fact the point i quoted was about A CLAN WITHOUT A PPU CANT FIGHT A CLAN WITH A PPU.... jee read....
and on the point yeah it would be a dmg boosted apu... do you think a ppu would stand and a let a unbuffed apu anti buff him??? or wait he has 2 cs tanks fully buffed so you think he ain't gonna dmg boosted the one who poses most threat?
That ball of light appears the ppu starts to move.... if he has a team they home in on the anti buffer....Everytime an apu went to anti buff my ppu my apu partner was on em like wildfire, i simply dmg boosted and the hl did the rest.
The ppu is missing from the side because somewhere along the line the point that a clan wont fight without a ppu against a clan with one came up
In a fight with both sides having a ppu it comes down to which ppu is the fastest healer.... the rest of the ppl have to slug out round after round into sheltered people and beat heal.... so he who has best heal and shelter wins.
But wait.... it's never 1 ppu vs 1 ppu its always as many as possible vs as many as possible...
My opinion overall is PPUS shouldnt be godlike, they should be the average joe combateer who has the specialty of Medic like trait.
he heals, he improves things with his boosts, but i dont think shelter and deflect should come in pvp.... tanks are shields, pes are shields..
now i know for some they are vital to the setup but it just makes such a massive impact.
A real skilled team should be able to keep the ppu alive without shields etc and in return he fixes em up with vital heals.....
Take away these and some unviable things would prolly be viable to (melee, drones,) but thats my opinion like it or not i dont mind :p
Originally posted by Archeus
No not really. Depends on the damage used. PSI attack for example pretty much ignores buffs.
ok so the odd psi attack....
but lets look at this resist....
I have say 15% resistence to all i add holy shelter into the equation bam it drops to like 4%
Deflect does the same to force
Originally posted by LTA
If you read what i QUOTED then you would see i was on about, bearing the fact the point i quoted was about A CLAN WITHOUT A PPU CANT FIGHT A CLAN WITH A PPU....
Sure they can and have numerous times. But if your that worried and it's an op fight, just bring Rhinos. Can't be parashocked, Damage Boost does dick to them, you can hide your men in it while they need a heal and you can repair it if it gets damaged.
Taking a recent op war...
1 Rhino (gunner/driver)
vs
2 APU's, 1 PPU, 1 Spy and 1 Tank.
= 1 Dead spy, two almost dead APU's and both guys and the Rhino were able to pull out without dying (even when the Tank brought his anti-craft gun). We were able to stay on the field for a good 15 minutes around the OP attacking, We only pulled out because our support wasn't coming back to take the op.
Granted they are no use for Pepper park, but in an op war a Rhino can be a huge factor. Also some of the other combat crafts hurt PPU's or totally rape them in seconds (especially if unbuffed).
Also some hours later, 1 APU+1 PPU vs 1 Rhino = 1 Dead APU and one PPU running away.
and on the point yeah it would be a dmg boosted apu... do you think a ppu would stand and a let a unbuffed apu anti buff him???
What can he do exactly? damage boosted APU? APU pops a drug and the Damage boost is gone, likewise with para. The PPU can't kill an APU without support. Sure he could spam the hell out of him with DB (which is pointless as it doesn't stack) but it stops them from casting other spells.
That ball of light appears the ppu starts to move.... if he has a team they home in on the anti buffer....Everytime an apu went to anti buff my ppu my apu partner was on em like wildfire, i simply dmg boosted and the hl did the rest.
Then the APU is an idiot. I would anti-buff your team. Try buffing a player and keeping them healed while they are dancing around trying to avoid shots while screaming "HEAL ME!!! BUFF ME!!!". You see you anti-buff a PPU, they know they need to rebuff. Debuff thier friends and it is a totally different situation.
The ppu is missing from the side because somewhere along the line the point that a clan wont fight without a ppu against a clan with one came up
There is only so much a PPU can do. If you focus all your force on one player that play will die and no amount of help from the PPU will save them. Once that player has dropped you start on the next one.
In a fight with both sides having a ppu it comes down to which ppu is the fastest healer
Again no it doesn't. Anti-Heal/Anti-Buff (the others not the PPUs) and you drop them. Or if you want a laugh, cast a DB sanctum (I saw this used in an op fight with pretty evil results).
But wait.... it's never 1 ppu vs 1 ppu its always as many as possible vs as many as possible...
lol, what are they going to do? Once a PPU can cast holy spells it is totally impossible for a PPU of the same level (cast holy) to kill them. Absolutly impossible, unless the PPU doesn't bring any spells along. PPUs at that level are immune to any damage the PPU can dish out and both can distract or disable the soul clusters.
Originally posted by LTA
ok so the odd psi attack....
I think you underestimate what this spell is like. Unless the PPU has specced for the attack it can do 60+ damage (even if they are fully buffed) and it can be spammed.
Or Revenges. 1 revenge and PSI attack = 1 dead PPU.
Originally posted by LTA
If you read what i QUOTED then you would see i was on about, bearing the fact the point i quoted was about A CLAN WITHOUT A PPU CANT FIGHT A CLAN WITH A PPU.... jee read....
Oh my bad... I forgot that PPUs are very rare in Neocron, and that clans have a hard time finding one.
Oh... wait...
Seriously, is it the case that clans dont have a PPU, or dont have a PPU online?
Regardless, why is it everyone complains about PPUs in op fights if half of the clans that participate somehow never have one???
My point is this:
This is monk-o-cron, remember? There are tons of monks out there. If a clan doesnt have a PPU, they should get one, even if they werent as uber as people think they are.
Same with hackers. If you dont have one, and you wanna take an op... BETTER GET ONE.
and on the point yeah it would be a dmg boosted apu... do you think a ppu would stand and a let a unbuffed apu anti buff him??? or wait he has 2 cs tanks fully buffed so you think he ain't gonna dmg boosted the one who poses most threat?
That ball of light appears the ppu starts to move.... if he has a team they home in on the anti buffer....Everytime an apu went to anti buff my ppu my apu partner was on em like wildfire, i simply dmg boosted and the hl did the rest.My point is that op wars are not simpy a collection of isolated attacks. Its everyone teaming up on everyone else. So its not like a damage boosted APU will encounter 2 CS tanks every time or anything. If the APU had a PPU on his ass (like the tanks must have since someone had to DB the APU) then it would be a different story, eh?
The ppu is missing from the side because somewhere along the line the point that a clan wont fight without a ppu against a clan with one came up.I am not denying it hasnt happened... but come on, EVERY example explaining how unfair the PPU is acts like every clan battle every fought has had one clan without a PPU.
But on the flip side, EVERYONE says that EVERYONE else uses a PPU.
Its like PPU-less clans exist only when its convenient to argue against the presence of PPUs.
In a fight with both sides having a ppu it comes down to which ppu is the fastest healer.... the rest of the ppl have to slug out round after round into sheltered people and beat heal.... so he who has best heal and shelter wins.Oh yeah, thats right. PPU spells take no mana, and PPU buffs make you invincible, so no one every dies. I forgot about that.
Even if you have PEs buffing, it still comes down to the same factors, doesnt it? All other factors equal (AND THEY NEVER ARE) then sure, the best buffs and heals wins.
I think you are conveniently discounting the roles of other players and of tactics- and like I say above, all other factors arent equal. You cant assume that in a clan war of 10 vs 10, each side having one PPU, that the side with the better PPU is a guaranteed win. WAAAAY too many other factors come into play.
But wait.... it's never 1 ppu vs 1 ppu its always as many as possible vs as many as possible... But wait, every example you give assume some PPU vs no PPU.
And whats wrong with having as many as possible? First, nothing is stopping competing clans (since everyone thinks monks are evil, right?) to agreeing on a set number of PPUs ahead of time. Second, this game is about overall numbers. The larger clans will ALWAYS have the advantage in EVERY aspect of the game. Period. PPUs are no different in that respect. Might is right.
A real skilled team should be able to keep the ppu alive without shields etc and in return he fixes em up with vital heals.....How do you keep a char alive without shields? If that is possible to begin with, why would the PPU need to heal the tanks and PEs?
If it was possible for runner A to keep runner B alive, without PPU skills, then we wouldnt need PPUs at all.
Teams cannot, without buffs and heals, "keep a runner alive." MAYBE in PvM, if the number of team members outnumbers the number of mobs, and the mobs dont have AoE attacks- but certainly NOT in PvP.
Posted by Strych9
...What happens when both sides have a single PPU? Why do all of the examples like this ALWAYS end up comparing a team with a PPU to a team without? Or why is it no one ever says that one of the sides would have an APU anti buffing whoever the PPU buffs? Are ALL clan battles magically fought by a team with a PPU and the other team without a PPU or APU? Oh wait, you mention an APU.. but magically its only with 2 CD tanks vs a damage boosted APU. My bad...
When both sides have the same number of PPUs its down to how skilled the PPUs are. Once again, its about the PPUs not the other classes who decide the outcome. Ideally, when both sides have the same number of PPUs it should be down to the fighting classes.
At the moment the wars are fought and won by the medics, not the soldiers.
Posted by Strych9
...Why do you say 25%? Is there some sort of calculation behind that, or is it just a guess?...
No that was just me throwing up an example figure for the argument.
Posted by Strych9
...Forget the idea that the runner in question is a PPU. Lets take a Spy. Put the Spy in the middle of any large conflict, and tell the enemy team that they must kill the Spy first. The team with the Spy must defend that Spy and make sure he doesnt die AND they must try and kill the enemy team at the same time. The Spy must stay within sight and range of his own team....
A very good point, but your assuming that the PPU would play in the same way that our curret PPU's would. If I were a PPU in this situation, I'd be out of the main fight, and at the back with the rifle spies. If the enemy want to try and charge me, they would have to either come out in the open (defending the op) or into the op, both of which could result in a total disaster or a supreme victory.
But no, thats a valid point, maybe making monks completely unbuffable is too extreme. Maybe just making monk buffs lower strength as an alternate?
Posted by Strych9
...Plus, this idea goes against what you said above as the solution (removing 25%)...
Oh this idea is totally separate to reducing the strength of buffs. Monk-unbuffable is not a great idea by any means, it would seriously nerf the PPU and change how PvP works at the moment. But then I think it would be a lot more fun than current op war PPUing, for me anyway :)
Posted by Strych9
...And that argument DOES make sense. PPU monks MUST rely on teams for levelling. They have zero offense, and poor armor. Removing the ability to heal and cast buffs on your own PPU will balance the class out HOW exactly?...
Puh-lease. APU + LOM = PPU. The fact that PPU's are difficult to level in themselves is absolutly no excuse for being overpowered, thats a totally different issue. Its the same argument as tradeskill XP, its broken and needs to be fixed, not justify it because it simply takes more time. And, as seen in the formula above, its very easy to make a PPU.
They would have zero offence and poor armour, yet would be able to seriously increase the ability and toughness of your team.
They aren't the opposite of the APU, they merely add to the defence of the team, rather than the damage.
But you are right this is a rather radical change, and it definatly nerfs the class. Reducing the effect of buffs on others is a much easier, and much easier to tweak approach, and it will help reduce the PPU's importance without nerfing the class.
<EDIT> Don't want to double post so:
Posted by Archeus
...But if your that worried and it's an op fight, just bring Rhinos...
Oh so we need rhino's to take out the PPU's now, thats a practical response :rolleyes:
Archeus, all your arguments against PPUs so far involve the use of APUs (and tanks :P). This isn't much better, whats the point in the other classes, if all you need are APUs and PPUs =/ Hell monks can even tradeskill as well, so you know.....
Posted by Strych9
My point is this: This is monk-o-cron, remember? There are tons of monks out there. If a clan doesnt have a PPU, they should get one, even if they werent as uber as people think they are.
Uhh Thats the point of this thread Strych :) A clan shouldn't NEED a PPU to participate in PvP. The point of this thread is to try and turn this back into Neocron.
Posted by Strych9
...But on the flip side, EVERYONE says that EVERYONE else uses a PPU....
Well I don't know about anyone else but PPUs are only the deciding fact when we lose. When we win, its all skill...*cough*
Seriously now, every op war I've participated in recently has been won by either by my girl's buffs/one of my other compadre PPUs or enemy PPUs. I don't ever remember the PEs being the deciding factors, or the APUs, or the Tanks and definatly not the spies. Its all been about which side has the higher PPU factor, through either skill or number.
...Oh yeah, thats right. PPU spells take no mana, and PPU buffs make you invincible, so no one every dies. I forgot about that...
Well come on, thats taking it to the extreme. But whats your argument here, PPUs aren't perfect therefore they = ok?
Anyway, its been fun! I'm going to go actually play the game I'm arguing about now :D
I just find it funny that everyone arguing on the PPU side after a
few passes of arguments end up more talking about how the
problem is not the PPU, the problem is that you should get more
PPUs in your clan, or that someone needs to change their
attitude. This shows only one thing, there are no rhyme or
reason behind the PPUs current power, its still all about how
many PPUs you have, regardless of what you are doing in this
game.
And the talk about different roles in this thread is just
pathetic. You dont need a spy to hack, you need a hacker, which
can be anything except a tank (but then again I actually know at
least one Tank that hack Ops), PEs arent better when it comes to
single out weak targets than any other combat class, etc. The
only roles that cant be done by anyone else are the Monk roles,
in particular the PPUs role, and it so just happen to be that a
Monk is worth several people of any other class and that no
other class has a unique role or ability which makes them
needed. Thats what I want changed, all classes should have
something which is unique to them, and which makes every class
wanted.
Originally posted by shardl0r
When both sides have the same number of PPUs its down to how skilled the PPUs are. Once again, its about the PPUs not the other classes who decide the outcome. Ideally, when both sides have the same number of PPUs it should be down to the fighting classes.
At the moment the wars are fought and won by the medics, not the soldiers.That is true ONLY if the fighters on each side deal IDENTICAL damage and are EXACTLY as effective.
And that is never the case.
You can say "all things being equal, it comes down to the PPUs" but all things are NOT equal.
Plus, thats the same as saying "if both sides had identically effective PPUs, it comes down to the fighters." Its true, but again it doesnt say much.
And PPUs themselves can never win the fight. Its the fighters that remove the bodies from the battlefield.
A very good point, but your assuming that the PPU would play in the same way that our curret PPU's would. If I were a PPU in this situation, I'd be out of the main fight, and at the back with the rifle spies. If the enemy want to try and charge me, they would have to either come out in the open (defending the op) or into the op, both of which could result in a total disaster or a supreme victory.
But no, thats a valid point, maybe making monks completely unbuffable is too extreme. Maybe just making monk buffs lower strength as an alternate?That may work (first part of your paragraph) but would at the very least require that PPU monks get rifle Spy range.
Now having monks buffs have a downside- thats interesting.
Puh-lease. APU + LOM = PPU. The fact that PPU's are difficult to level in themselves is absolutly no excuse for being overpowered, thats a totally different issue. Its the same argument as tradeskill XP, its broken and needs to be fixed, not justify it because it simply takes more time. And, as seen in the formula above, its very easy to make a PPU.Well I am levelling pure PPU, but of course people LOM over. So assuming LOMs stay in the game, then drop that, and go with the other part of that- no offense.
The thought, and its a reasonable one, is that the more offense you have the less defense you have. Thats the idea behind the pure APU and pure APU. Pure APUs have crap defense and really good offense. Pure PPUs have crap offense and really good defense.
This isnt that nutty of an idea. Runner vs Mob. Either the runner should be able to kill the mob, or the runner should be able to stop the mob from killing him.
BTW, I think that ALL PPU spells should do ZERO damage.
They would have zero offence and poor armour, yet would be able to seriously increase the ability and toughness of your team.
They aren't the opposite of the APU, they merely add to the defence of the team, rather than the damage.THats fine but like I said, its hard to rationalize the idea that a healer cannot keep themsleves alive first and foremost.
But you are right this is a rather radical change, and it definatly nerfs the class. Reducing the effect of buffs on others is a much easier, and much easier to tweak approach, and it will help reduce the PPU's importance without nerfing the class. I agree with the reduction in foreign casts. Having a PPU able to keep himself alive and well protected (I am not saying invulnerable... but then again any cocky tank will tell you that PPUs arent invulnerable anyway... hehe) is important, and then allow them to aid their teammates.
Its EASY to think up RP reasons why foreign buffs arent as effective as self-cast ones.
Maybe have the different TL spells have different effectiveness?
Heal is 100% effective foreign cast
Blessed Heal is 80% effective foreign cast
Holy Heal is 60% effective foreign cast
Then this would have less of an impact on the non-endgame monks.
I just wanted to comment on the idea that it's all ppu's fault that the mobs are as tough as they are. While that does have some truth, it's not fair at all. KK made it pretty clear that they intend high end mobs to be too dangerous for you to kill unless you're in a group. When ppu's were first created, it was acompanied with a boost in mob's damage output. Previously a Tank could go out and solo the toughest mobs in the game, and collect loot. After this though, they had to either bring a ppu, or act like an apu in the chaos caves : ) That is hiding, taking advantage of the environment, trying to avoid being hit at all costs. This was not in response to ppu's. This was in combination with the ppu's. KK wants us to be in teams, and they make the mobs hard enough that we have too. If you get rid of ppu's, mob's damage output would be lowered so that a group of say 5 would be needed. They would still destroy any one or two runners. Blaim KK, not PPU's : )
Psycho Killa
07-01-04, 22:45
Originally posted by Archeus
Or Revenges. 1 revenge and PSI attack = 1 dead PPU.
Sorry to hear you never heard of resist force or deflector.
Im a ppu probly the only one about now that admits where onscenely overpowered.
O NO my ppu cant KEEL U SO Y U WANT TO NERF THEM.
Your right my 34 a tick heal on a tank cant kill you...., my holy super glue cant hurt you, my damage boost doesnt greatly increase the damage you take or anything. The extra hp and damage boost I give to other players wont kill you, the shelter and deflector I give an apu sure as shit wont hurt you now will it. Im not the only one who can unstealth people or anything, o and not to mention I have the godliest gift of all which is to bring your pathetic life back.
The problem isnt solely that ppus are practicaly immortal (those who know to use resist force and have proper resists combined with insane speed, holy heal, shelter and deflector) its the fact that its damn impossible to go to an op fight with 30 vs 30 people if one team has a ppu that team wins no question asked. Now should one person be more important then all those other people? I think not but you can think what you wish.
Originally posted by Rade
I just find it funny that everyone arguing on the PPU side after a few passes of arguments end up more talking about how the problem is not the PPU, the problem is that you should get more
PPUs in your clan, or that someone needs to change their attitude. This shows only one thing, there are no rhyme or reason behind the PPUs current power, its still all about how many PPUs you have, regardless of what you are doing in this game.You only argument against that idea is that no one class should be that important, and that has been addressed several times.
How do you envision this playing out? That the only way to win an op war is to have equal amounts of each class? If so, then what happens if you dont have enough spies to fill out the ratio?
What I find funny is how its pretty clear that PPUs are supposed to be in the game, and PPUs CAN and DO play a role in combat, yet people get outraged when they face a PPU. I would understand if only City-allied clans could have PPUs, and then the anti-city clans were upset that they couldnt have any.
Its also funny that it seems almost EVERYONE thinks that monks ruin combat, yet everyone brings monks to combat. I know I know.... "well if THEY have a monk I will use mine." The point is that clearly a LOT of people, despite the vocal majority in these forums, LIKE using monks in combat.
Now if you read the posts, you will see I am in favor of trying to even things out. But I am skeptical that things will change. Why?
Because your complaint is NOT because of current levels of the PPU, it of a support class itself. Any character whose sole purpose is to help others instead of attacking other will always play a big role. Even if the PPU ONLY healed... the more PPUs you had the more players you could keep constantly healed. Even if the ONLY thing a PPU could do was cast TL3 heal, the side with the most PPUs would be able to have more heals going at once and that would allow the fighters (which everyone seems to try and forget about) not worry about heals.
So no matter what, the side with the most PPUs WILL have an advanatage as long as the PPU remains a support role.
Just like if people decides to make ultra high agility/athletics PEs to ONLY run around and cast noob heals to thwart PPUs. Then the side with the most noob buffing PEs would have the advantage.
Now if you want to discuss the degree of the advantage, thats fine- but you gotta drop the "most PPUs wins" routine first, because thats bunk. No matter WHAT the PPU does, if you assume all fighting forces are equal.. then the number of support chars will dictate who wins.
And the talk about different roles in this thread is just pathetic. You dont need a spy to hack, you need a hacker, which can be anything except a tank (but then again I actually know at least one Tank that hack Ops), PEs arent better when it comes to single out weak targets than any other combat class, etc. The only roles that cant be done by anyone else are the Monk roles, in particular the PPUs role, and it so just happen to be that a Monk is worth several people of any other class and that no other class has a unique role or ability which makes them needed. Thats what I want changed, all classes should have something which is unique to them, and which makes every class wanted. That doesnt require the altering of PPU monks to make that happen. Remember, PPU monk is not a class- the class is just monk, and a monk can be APU as well.
Its the ROLE of support that you must have for a op war, along with the ROLE of hacker. It just turns out that only one class can play the role of support right now. But its not the class thats needed (a monk can be pure APU and offer zero support)... its the role. So dont confuse the two.
To make every class wanted to the same degree that PPU monk is wanted, you will need to first develope ROLES that are wanted as much as the support role.
Can you think of three other unique roles? We can call "attack/offense" a role... but we would still need a few more, since right now the monk can fill that role as well.
A role can be given easily by adding new tools to the game.
Corpse explosion tech tools could have been the solution to the
rez problem instead of nerfing rez, then you would have needed
people with that tool. A tool which makes someone unable to be
healed for a period of time would create a role for a class. Etc.
Those are very PvP oriented toys but there could be more PvM
oriented ones as well. This in combination with toning down the
PPUs would mean that ideally you want some people from each
class, each adding their unique ability. The hardest part here imo
is to separate Spies from PEs, do we really want to make class
specific tools? I dont think so, its a illogical restriction especially
since PEs "are supposed" to have a little of everything, but
otherwise those two classes risk becomming too similar or one
just becomming a weaker version of the other. It wouldnt be a
problem however if PEs are more combat proficient but have
worse toys and vice versa.
But the fact remains, currently, all you need is monks. A clan full
of just PPUs and APUs, doing fighting and tradeskills alike, would
in no way be at a disadvantage compared to other clans. And
thats just awful.
/edit
aaa cba no1 listens n e way
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Sorry to hear you never heard of resist force or deflector.
Im a ppu probly the only one about now that admits where onscenely overpowered.
I haven't seen any PPU shrug off a revenge straight away. The least I have seen the PSI attack do to a capped PPU was 20 health. That's about 40 a second. Enough to keep the holy heal busy.
You know you go on about how l33t you are. How many people can you have whacking on you at the same time?
Tell me how many people can you extend that too? 1, 2, 3 people? At the same time? I don't think so.
Sure you might not be able to die, but when it is just you left and all your team is dead around you, what do you do? Hang around and rez them, I don't think so. Just because your still alive doesn't mean you win.
Your spells, there are counters for all of them. Something a lot of people fail to realise. Can unstealth people? Easy, just don't go near you.
its the fact that its damn impossible to go to an op fight with 30 vs 30 people if one team has a ppu that team wins no question asked.
ROFL man your team must really suck if you can't handle 1 ppu.
I have seen 3 PPU's+APU dropped in one go by a group of Tanks. How? They killed the APU. After that they just raped each PPU in turn. While a PPU might be able to protect themselves another PPU doesn't stack up too well, unless they are being debuffed. Something the tanks weren't doing.
Where people fail in op fights is they attack the PPU and try to kill them first.
I just find it funny that everyone arguing on the PPU side after a few passes of arguments end up more talking about how the
problem is not the PPU, the problem is that you should get more
PPUs in your clan,
Actually only one person, and he was equating to each character being equal. If I show up in a Rhino and no one has an anti-tank gun what are you guys going to do? Bitch and whine on the forums?
You dont need a spy to hack, you need a hacker, which
can be anything except a tank
No, in OP wars you want to take the op fast you need a spy unless you know of any droner PE's? Sure other people can hack the op but they aren't going to get it on thier first go every time all layers that a droner spy can do.
The
only roles that cant be done by anyone else are the Monk roles,
in particular the PPUs role,
What exactly? Holy spells? Some that is all. All other classes can cast spells to some extent, PE more so (and they get combat too, prehaps they need to be nerfed).
so just happen to be that a
Monk is worth several people of any other class and that no
other class has a unique role or ability which makes them
needed.
Several people? If a trades person prehaps. Ignoring Hacking (because as you said all people can hack). They can't drive all crafts, they can't gun crafts, they can't fire anti-tank weapons, they have limited transport so they can't carry large amounts of stuff like turrets or VHC Ammo, they can't drone (well), they can't stealth, can't fire heavy weapons.
Actually simple thing is, all classes can do everything to a limited extent (even tanks). So even if a PPU isn't there you still have access to shields and damage boost do you not? (I laughed when I saw the noPPU Op war thread and they had people buffing).
The bitching is from people have absolutly no ability to think beyond 'omg they wont die'.
A tool which makes someone unable to be
healed for a period of time would create a role for a class.
You mean like anti-heal?
But the fact remains, currently, all you need is monks. A clan full
of just PPUs and APUs, doing fighting and tradeskills alike, would
in no way be at a disadvantage compared to other clans. And
thats just awful.
You seem to be under the misconception that somehow monks can be uber and have tradeskills? I don't think so.
Lets compare PyschoKilla and myself. He's a combat PPU, I'm a trades PPU. He can take an insane amount of damage, I can take a reasonable amount (for that trade off I can drive, barter, repair).
Originally posted by Archeus
Lets compare PyschoKilla and myself. He's a combat PPU, I'm a trades PPU. He can take an insane amount of damage, I can take a reasonable amount (for that trade off I can drive, barter, repair).
I sure hope you don't base your arguements about how ppus aren't overpowered off yourself.
Originally posted by petek480
I sure hope you don't base your arguements about how ppus aren't overpowered off yourself.
I hate to break it to you, but not all PPUs are cookie cutter Uber classes. There are prehaps only about 5-6 PPUs on pluto that are what I would class Uber (Psychos level). So all PPUs should get nerfed because there are well classed/combat players? (Unless Psycho wants to admit he sucks in PvP? o_O )
Fight last weekend against Dark outside Tech Haven (which btw was an absolutly good laugh and excellent fight). Thier PPU we couldn't kill but we killed all his friends and he couldn't rez them until Road turned up with an anti-tank gun (he just kept running away and trying to get back). So in that case it was road (A tank) that changed the course of the battle, not the PPU.
Originally posted by Archeus
I hate to break it to you, but not all PPUs are cookie cutter Uber classes. There are prehaps only about 5-6 PPUs on pluto that are what I would class Uber (Psychos level). So all PPUs should get nerfed because there are well classed/combat players? (Unless Psycho wants to admit he sucks in PvP? o_O )
Fight last weekend against Dark outside Tech Haven (which btw was an absolutly good laugh and excellent fight). Thier PPU we couldn't kill but we killed all his friends and he couldn't rez them until Road turned up with an anti-tank gun (he just kept running away and trying to get back). So in that case it was road (A tank) that changed the course of the battle, not the PPU.
Originally posted by Archeus
I haven't seen any PPU shrug off a revenge straight away. The least I have seen the PSI attack do to a capped PPU was 20 health. That's about 40 a second. Enough to keep the holy heal busy.
You know you go on about how l33t you are. How many people can you have whacking on you at the same time?
Tell me how many people can you extend that too? 1, 2, 3 people? At the same time? I don't think so.
Just asking becuase of stuff you say like that.
Btw, you don't have to have any cookie cutter ppu setup to be good and I think I should know.
Originally posted by petek480
Just asking becuase of stuff you say like that.
Btw, you don't have to have any cookie cutter ppu setup to be good and I think I should know.
Depends on what you define good. A person who cannot die? Or a person who can keep thier whole team alive?
Don't get me wrong I can take some punishment but certainly not at the level of PKilla.
Incidently.. I was driving the Rhino during that fight, after they got me out of the Rhino against my choice they took me down.
My PPU drives and researches himself and he is still pretty good. Dex and only Int points to a certain degree don't ultimately matter in creating a good setup.
Originally posted by Jest
My PPU drives and researches himself and he is still pretty good. Dex and only Int points to a certain degree don't ultimately matter in creating a good setup.
Dex does, it's what allows a ppu to get high run speed and int only matters until you cap your spells rof.
Dex and only Int points to a certain degree don't ultimately matter in creating a good setup.
Dex not so much unless you want the speed to help with runcasting.
However INT? At 130 PSU I need boosters, at 168 (which I got to by going pure) I did not need boosters unless under serious fire and trying to cast high mana spells.
Of course for that kind of ability I had to sacrifice all my points. Now I have 121 barter and reasonable PPU loadout.
I think ppus are overpowered and have way too big of an effect on fights in general, op or no op.
As a ppu, the one thing i enjoy is keeping my team healed. It is a challange, its not as easy as it appears to heal people that are running and dodging amongst enemies. This is our equivalent to you getting joy out of shooting and hurting the enemy.
Anyone that doesn't think that ppus are overpowered is lacking a brain, or is in denial, plain and simple. I don't care what they do, reduce the heal, reduce the buffs, give everyone an antibuff spell, you name it.
The true goal in my opinion is this:
in an even numbered fight, say 5vs5, with all capped classes. The 4 with a ppu versus 5 combat class characters, no matter what, it should be a close fight, or those with greater skill should dominate completely. Right now, a team of 3(with a ppu) versus 5 combat classes can sometimes and with a good ppu will ALWAYS beat the other 5. This is complete bs and not how it should be intended.
I don't think the PPU should have to sacrifice much defense. And as a result i feel whenever we cast a spell of any type, there should never be a red number coming out of another persons head caused by us.
Also, another thing, i feel that mc5 is a place that should be difficult, but viable to every classes, not just a team with a ppu.
Originally posted by Archeus
Dex not so much unless you want the speed to help with runcasting.
However INT? At 130 PSU I need boosters, at 168 (which I got to by going pure) I did not need boosters unless under serious fire and trying to cast high mana spells.
Of course for that kind of ability I had to sacrifice all my points. Now I have 121 barter and reasonable PPU loadout.
Archeus, i'm not gonna question your skill, but dex is HUGE for a ppu, at least one that wants to have any decent impact on pvp and stay alive (gotta keep up with the other runners). And I have a fairly large mana pool, but during any type of pvp, I go through psi 3's like it is no one's business. I bet you don't keep your team or yourself alive very long with the way you talk about your setup and use.
A skilled ppu is worth 2-3+ offensive players.
Thats just wrong and causes unfair battles.
Originally posted by sw1tch
A skilled ppu is worth 2-3+ offensive players.
Thats just wrong and causes unfair battles.
lol, exactly!
You summed up in 2 sentences what took me a full couple of paragraphs to :)
oh i meant to say skilled offensive players too
Originally posted by Archeus
I hate to break it to you, but not all PPUs are cookie cutter Uber classes. There are prehaps only about 5-6 PPUs on pluto that are what I would class Uber (Psychos level). So all PPUs should get nerfed because there are well classed/combat players? (Unless Psycho wants to admit he sucks in PvP? o_O )
Fight last weekend against Dark outside Tech Haven (which btw was an absolutly good laugh and excellent fight). Thier PPU we couldn't kill but we killed all his friends and he couldn't rez them until Road turned up with an anti-tank gun (he just kept running away and trying to get back). So in that case it was road (A tank) that changed the course of the battle, not the PPU.
Sorry Archeus, unless you are a full combat ppu, then you can not use yourself as an example about the strength of ppu's. I lom'd my psu down enough to get 90 hack. I am now a huge gimp and can not do aswell as I did before. Sure skill comes into play, even with a gimp some can do alright. Put that person on a full combat ppu and they're unstopable. But moving anything away from the combat setup will impair your combat abilities. You physicly can't cast as fast, you can't run as fast. That sums up to a dead ppu. Yet even now I can do a fair job at being an uber ppu. There are more situations now where I can die then there used to be. A tank with a flamer is more of a threat then they used to be, likewise the Terminator can hurt, and of course apu's are deadly. Providing you do not have the aforementioned weapons, then you will have a seriously hard time killin me. Even with a slow holy rez, I still pull off combat ressurects. 5 people are no concern to me, they just knock me around some. Bring in one of the ppu killers though, and I'm out of here. Despite that, I can't compete with combat ppu's. The casting speed really kills me.
I don't know how long you've been playin Neocron, but there is a long time precidence of the few ruining it for the many. It is not even their fault, you can't blaim them for being clever and thinking up new tactics or new setups. Once enough people figure out what they're doing, then it becomes a problem. KK steps in and rather then a specific fix to prevent them from existing, they toss a general nerf for us all. When people figured out that shelters stacked with the sanctums, there was a rash of super runners who could barely be hurt. The response was to have shelter's defensive capabilities lowered. When PPU's were first introduced we gained exp for healing, a decent amount. Of course some would sit in plaza 1 and constantly heal people, leveling up that way. The response was to drasticly lessen the exp we gain for healing. Just recently when PPU's started bringing people back to life in the middle of being shot by 5+ people and patch the person up so they can kill again. It exploded so that every ppu was doing this, as long as a ppu was around then your kills didn't matter at all. The response was to make ressurect take a lot longer. These are just 3 examples off the top of my head. This is simply what happens in Neocron. Though you may be average on the spectrum of ppu's, the ones all the way at the top are the ones that define the class.
Originally posted by bounty
in an even numbered fight, say 5vs5, with all capped classes. The 4 with a ppu versus 5 combat class characters, no matter what, it should be a close fight, or those with greater skill should dominate completely. Right now, a team of 3(with a ppu) versus 5 combat classes can sometimes and with a good ppu will ALWAYS beat the other 5. This is complete bs and not how it should be intended.
You are telling me that 5 people cannot kill 1 person if they have a PPU with them?
That is what it equates to.
5 vs 1 (with PPU) = That person will die. The PPU might take that much punishment there is no way in hell the other player can. If you think otherwise then you must absolutly suck at PvP.
So you have 1 player having the shit pumped into them. and 3 other players sitting around. They can all attack one of those attacking (with thier friend who is about to die).
The PPU has the following options.
- Save the guy who is going to die with Holy Heal. Won't save them. (Counter: Other team uses Anti-Heal with an APU).
- Damage boost the person they are attacking (Counter: Damage blocker).
- Sanctums are totally useless unless you want to keep the others alive.
- DB Sanctum weakens everyone (the PPU too). Too dangerous.
- Paras a player (which is bugged atm and a seperate issue) a long time to cast and can be countered with drugs. By the time a HP is cast a second later the person is back in the fight.
Did I miss anything? Soul Cluster? A waste of time (Counter: you all claim your uber, you figure it out). Rez? don't make me laugh.
That is why I call BS on that having 3 fighters+PPU vs 5 people means a win.
Sorry Archeus, unless you are a full combat ppu, then you can not use yourself as an example about the strength of ppu's.
Sure I can (I mean feck it, if people who don't even play a PPU seem to think it know it all, why can't a PPU?). But my post was in reply to Rade who seems to think that a PPU can do everything and combat class.
Put that person on a full combat ppu and they're unstopable.
Of course. But will they be able to keep thier team alive without the experience of playing a PPU? No they won't, and if your team is dead your unstopable (which at that point is questionable) means dick.
And once you have played a PPU for a while, you know how to block the majority of the crap they are able to throw out.
Originally posted by Archeus
You are telling me that 5 people cannot kill 1 person if they have a PPU with them?
That is what it equates to.
5 vs 1 (with PPU) = That person will die. The PPU might take that much punishment there is no way in hell the other player can. If you think otherwise then you must absolutly suck at PvP.
So you have 1 player having the shit pumped into them. and 3 other players sitting around. They can all attack one of those attacking (with thier friend who is about to die).
The PPU has the following options.
- Save the guy who is going to die with Holy Heal. Won't save them. (Counter: Other team uses Anti-Heal with an APU).
- Damage boost the person they are attacking (Counter: Damage blocker).
- Sanctums are totally useless unless you want to keep the others alive.
- DB Sanctum weakens everyone (the PPU too). Too dangerous.
- Paras a player (which is bugged atm and a seperate issue) a long time to cast and can be countered with drugs. By the time a HP is cast a second later the person is back in the fight.
Did I miss anything? Soul Cluster? A waste of time (Counter: you all claim your uber, you figure it out). Rez? don't make me laugh.
That is why I call BS on that having 3 fighters+PPU vs 5 people means a win.
I'm sorry but if you think that then you must suck at pvp. me(ppu) and anyone else can easily take on 5 people. S/D provide more protect then you think and combined with heal the 5 pepole will hardly be doing any damage. And since the other 5 people don't have a ppu they'll die fast.
Originally posted by petek480
I'm sorry but if you think that then you must suck at pvp. me(ppu) and anyone else can easily take on 5 people.
Honestly. I call BS on that. There is no way in hell a PPU can keep a person alive with 5 people continually whacking on the victim and totally ignoring the PPU. Especially if they have counter drugs.
Originally posted by Archeus
Honestly. I call BS on that. There is no way in hell a PPU can keep a person alive with 5 people continually whacking on the victim and totally ignoring the PPU. Especially if they have counter drugs. The first few months of Fight Night we had several 2 vs 6 battles and the 2 with one being a PPU won every single time so we just stopped doing them. Dontcha remember those at all? :eek:
Originally posted by Archeus
Honestly. I call BS on that. There is no way in hell a PPU can keep a person alive with 5 people continually whacking on the victim and totally ignoring the PPU. Especially if they have counter drugs.
Let me guess, you spend all day in p1 using those tradeskills, that you got from gimping yourself, and never actually ppuing, beucase you apparently know nothing about ppus.
Originally posted by Archeus
Honestly. I call BS on that. There is no way in hell a PPU can keep a person alive with 5 people continually whacking on the victim and totally ignoring the PPU. Especially if they have counter drugs.
you'll be surprised what you can do with a ppu on your back
Actually Archeus, you misread what I said( i specifically stated that it was an even fight). I said in a 5vs5 battle, you have two sides. One side has 4 combat class and 1 ppu, the other side has just 5 combat classes. The side without the ppu as of now gets slaughtered/manhandled. And actually, even if you want to read it the way you did. A good ppu with a very good tank could take on 5 others, not a doubt in my mind.
Originally posted by bounty
Actually Archeus, you misread what I said. I said in a 5vs5 battle, you have two sides. One side has 4 combat class and 1 ppu, the other side has just 5 combat classes. The side without the ppu as of now gets slaughtered/manhandled. And actually, even if you want to read it the way you did. A good ppu with a very good tank could take on 5 others, not a doubt in my mind.
yeh, i took down a whole FA clan at jeriko the other day, just because with an S/D i dont take much damage, and a holy heal gets me from near dead, to combat ready in a matter of seconds.
Originally posted by petek480
Let me guess, you spend all day in p1 using those tradeskills, that you got from gimping yourself, and never actually ppuing, beucase you apparently know nothing about ppus.
No I fight (with a Rhino). PPU didn't save the DARK guys last weekend and we couldn't kill him, but we got everyone else. You know how? We totally ignored the PPU and laid into the others one at a time.
The first few months of Fight Night we had several 2 vs 6 battles and the 2 with one being a PPU won every single time so we just stopped doing them. Dontcha remember those at all?
Oh sure I remember them, of course since then Spells have been nerfed on foriegn casts, rez has been nerfed and para (although it needs fixing), Damage boost cant be stacked anymore. How many of those fights were they kitted out for a PPU? Did they carry damage blocker/anti-para drugs? (which got a boost recently too, fast usage time and haze can be disabled).
OP wars are very different kettle of fish too. 5 vs 1 with a ppu in tow? Any 5? 5 Revenges? Can a PPU keep you alive from that? Sniper fire? 5 APUs (1 casting anti-heal, another debuff and the rest spamming the crap out of you?) Rhino/Combat craft fire? Turrets? Sure the PPU might be able to hold it off but protect 1 player against 5 players. Total BS.
Originally posted by Archeus
OP wars are very different kettle of fish too. 5 vs 1 with a ppu in tow? Any 5? 5 Revenges? Can a PPU keep you alive from that? Sniper fire? 5 APUs (1 casting anti-heal, another debuff and the rest spamming the crap out of you?) Rhino/Combat craft fire? Turrets? Sure the PPU might be able to hold it off but protect 1 player against 5 players. Total BS. I dunno mate you might be right but I think its still possible. Might have to test it out some time. Perhaps this Saturday
Originally posted by Archeus
Sure the PPU might be able to hold it off but protect 1 player against 5 players. Total BS.
No, it's not total bs. You can't protect 1 player against 5 but that doesn't mean that no one can, you gotta stop basing everything off your own ppu. And if you don't believe me log onto pluto now and i'll show you.
Psycho Killa
08-01-04, 01:11
When your comparing tanks and there balance do you talk about a tank the has very low agility but can repair all his stuff and clone ammo? No I think not you think about the fully combat orientated tank that overspecs the crap out of agility for the extra edge. When you talk about pe balance do you think about a full psi use/ weapon lore pe or do u think about one that can construct and repair.... so why should it be any different for ppu's. Noone forced you to barter archeus.
Revenges no probelm you forget they have to relaunch and by the time they get to me again (even though theyre insanle fast) i have all my hp back or whoever im helping that got hit by one. All i gotta do is run around and they wont get a direct hit anyways since there so damn fast its hard to steer on a moving target and be that close and if they dont hit me the first pass cya later from my para.
Dex and int is a huge part of setting up an "uber ppu" I have all agility under dexterity and 30 athletics and well over 130 ish agility with buffs and i run about as fast as someone whos 70/70. This allows me to have tons of ressits and health.
Psi use both affects your psi pool (not huge but its definatley a plus) and your casting time on spells. It certainly seems to make a huge difference especialy on the higher end spells and rare sanctums. You pick up 100 plus in another skill your a gimp no questions asked.
Sure you can be very useful with tradeskills but you wont have the edge neccesary to be the best at pvp.
At the moment in relation to PPU's the best damage dealers are..
Droners (Revenge) - I've seen Jaggeh drop 6 people with a couple of revenges while they had a PPU in tow. The PPU couldn't react fast enough to protect everyone.
Rhino - Can't kill the PPU but will kill the person they are trying to protect. Add to that fact that it offers 100 percent protection and 2 passenger slots (for people to drop out and fight then retreat).
APUs - I have seen a mid level APU kill one of the new TH turrets in under a minute. Do you have any idea how much punishment that is? APU has the choice of two targets when it comes to debuffing. All the PPU sees is the spell being cast.
Of course we are talking about PPUs ruining Op wars right? Also not everyone in an OP war is fully kitted out for pure combat.
Psi use both affects your psi pool (not huge but its definatley a plus) and your casting time on spells.
And your mana regen rate.
There are lots of varying factors that can change a fight, the presence of certain classes, them having the right weapons, synchs, etc. In a 5v2 fight, in which both sides have a ppu, it really could go either way. Archeus, I don't know how often you attempt to keep a team alive. The fewer the people you have to cover, the better you protect them. Keeping one person alive is the easiest of all. That's why PPU/APU teams can do so much damage. The other ppu has to cover multiple friendlies and attack the hostiles. It's a classic case of the small elite force wiping out the much larger army. It can of course go the other way sometimes, apply enough pressure and anyone will crack. This is one of the things that made Polarity seem so much better then he was. Typical situation had all of Pol's team dead, and the entire enemy army chasing Polarity around the op. Polarity will purposefuly run through your ppl, friendly fire will start up and you will be going crazy trying to both keep your ppl alive and keep Polarity shocked. If he ran around enough, chances are he's spread your forces all around. When he goes to start ressurecting, he has some extra breathing time. I've done this before aswell, though not aswell as Polarity of course. A tank, apu, and me took down enemy groups 3 times our size.
Originally posted by Carinth
That's why PPU/APU teams can do so much damage.
And yet we have taken out an APU combo. No we didn't kill the PPU but they sure as hell couldn't rez thier buddy.
I've done this before aswell, though not aswell as Polarity of course. A tank, apu, and me took down enemy groups 3 times our size.
Good point and in the old situation this may of still been the case. Now though if the whole team is dead the PPU is totally worthless now. The second they go to rez just everyone opens up on them. They cannot stay alive long enough to rez someone and even through a fluke they do rez someone that person would be dropped just as fast.
Originally posted by Archeus
Good point and in the old situation this may of still been the case. Now though if the whole team is dead the PPU is totally worthless now. The second they go to rez just everyone opens up on them. They cannot stay alive long enough to rez someone and even through a fluke they do rez someone that person would be dropped just as fast.
Under the current situation you don't allow the teamate to die : )
This is the setup:
Team A has 5 ppl, Team B has 2. Each with a ppu included.
Team A has superior damage output, but has a higher chance of dying due to lesser ppu coverage. Team B has superior ppu coverage, but less damage output.
It's hard to say who will win, either side could. I put my money on Team B though, I favor living longer over killing faster. Hence why I don't like playin an apu : )
Posted by Strych9
That is true ONLY if the fighters on each side deal IDENTICAL damage and are EXACTLY as effective.
No its not. There can be quite a bit of imbalance skillwise between the other classes, and barring the situation with melee spies vs apus the PPUs will decide the outcome.
Posted by Strych9
Its also funny that it seems almost EVERYONE thinks that monks ruin combat, yet everyone brings monks to combat. I know I know.... "well if THEY have a monk I will use mine." The point is that clearly a LOT of people, despite the vocal majority in these forums, LIKE using monks in combat.
Whether people like using monks or not is irrelevant. If you want to win you are forced to use a monk. The point is people like to win. Does anyone enjoy losing?
Posted by Strych9
Even if the ONLY thing a PPU could do was cast TL3 heal, the side with the most PPUs would be able to have more heals going at once and that would allow the fighters (which everyone seems to try and forget about) not worry about heals.
However TL3 would an extremely small outcome on the result of the battle. It would help I'm sure, but it doesn't automatically decide the outcome (i.e. if the fighters make a huge strategical error, that TL3 won't save them, they will lose). As it stands at the moment, you don't need to fight with any sort of organisation if you've got PPUs to back you up. They compensate for lack of skill.
Posted by Archeus
I haven't seen any PPU shrug off a revenge straight away. The least I have seen the PSI attack do to a capped PPU was 20 health. That's about 40 a second. Enough to keep the holy heal busy.
You really haven't seen a good PPU then. I'm not a pure combat PPU, which as already mentioned in this thread, is nowhere near as effective as a pure combat. Its almost an exponential scale. But anyway, yes, I not a pure combat PPU and with deflector/shelter heal sanctum and heal all running all a revenge does to me is makes my health bounce, down by about 150ish and then straight back up. I would have to be hit by a co-ordinated strike of god knows how many to bring me remotely close to death, assuming every droner can hit me :rolleyes:
Psi attack 2 can pump out a little over 100 damage to a completely unbuffed PPU, and thats a 5 slot. So, again, with Holy heal running and deflectored your looking at an equivalence damage system of 0.
Posted by Archeus
You are telling me that 5 people cannot kill 1 person if they have a PPU with them?
You've kind of shot yourself in the foot here. I know for a fact that a 2 APU 1 PPU team can take on at least 8 people if not more, and believe me that makes it a WHOLE lot more difficult for the PPU in that situation. A single Tank with PPU would easily take out 5 of any class mix barring, obviously, another PPU.
Posted by Carinth
In a 5v2 fight, in which both sides have a ppu, it really could go either way
Well not really :) Cath up, buff your whole team, and then concentrate on keeping a single member of your team alive, against 2man team its pointless trying to stack any negative buffs. Your chosen member attacks the notppu member of the other team whilst your other 3 people spend thier time attacking/debuffing generally annoying the PPU so that he/she has to split his concentration to make sure he/she doesn't make a mistake, and sooner or later he/she will. If the 2 man team is smart they'll have to work out which member the PPU is concentrating on and ignore him, take the rest. If either PPU is not up to the standard of the other, that team loses. Again, the outcome of the battle is decided by the PPU factor.
In the 5v1+ppu battle the side with PPU will always win. As sw1tch said, you forget how ridiculous holy buffs. With only 5 people shooting at your teammate you might not even need heal sanc up. S/D + HH running should suffice. Its rather sad really, thinking about it. Putting in all that effort to collect the parts to get that 5 slot CS/HL/RoLH, and 5 people armed with these types of weapons are beaten by 3 little non-rare spells and a blue cloak =/
Shadow Dancer
08-01-04, 04:49
Originally posted by Carinth
I just wanted to comment on the idea that it's all ppu's fault that the mobs are as tough as they are. While that does have some truth, it's not fair at all. KK made it pretty clear that they intend high end mobs to be too dangerous for you to kill unless you're in a group. When ppu's were first created, it was acompanied with a boost in mob's damage output. Previously a Tank could go out and solo the toughest mobs in the game, and collect loot. After this though, they had to either bring a ppu, or act like an apu in the chaos caves : ) That is hiding, taking advantage of the environment, trying to avoid being hit at all costs. This was not in response to ppu's. This was in combination with the ppu's. KK wants us to be in teams, and they make the mobs hard enough that we have too. If you get rid of ppu's, mob's damage output would be lowered so that a group of say 5 would be needed. They would still destroy any one or two runners. Blaim KK, not PPU's : )
Um, the problem is group or team to KK means having a PPU. That's pretty much it.
You mean like anti-heal?
Anti-heal doesn't prevent a heal. It takes one away. And considering it costs 240 mana and has slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow Rof, and heals can be cast at 52 rof, I really don't consider anti-heal too useful.
Originally posted by Archeus
You are telling me that 5 people cannot kill 1 person if they have a PPU with them?
If the ppu and his ally knows what they are doing, then no.
And i've been in the situation when me and a ppu took down a ppu-less group fairly quiclky and easily. I don't stand still and assume the PPU will keep me alive. I play as if i'm alone and trying to take out 5 people. Running through obstacles, crippling their legs, etc...
The only thing I agree with you Archeus, is about attacking the ppu first being a bad idea. Personally, I think the majority of apus don't take full advantage of antibuff. I can't count the number of times i've seen an apu actually try and kill a tank who has holy shelter. Why? That takes way too long. A capped antibuff is fast IMO. I antibuff the apus first and they drop extremely fast, usually before they even notice i'm attacking them.
The only time i'll attack a ppu first is if their is only 1-2 damage dealers on his side and none of them are apus. But again, it also depends on the op fight.
Psycho Killa
08-01-04, 05:21
Damn six pimps where pounding on me for about a minute and i ended up having to run away :(
Then i realised I didnt have my pa on lol
Shadow Dancer
08-01-04, 05:24
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Damn six pimps where pounding on me for about a minute and i ended up having to run away :(
Then i realised I didnt have my pa on lol
I Must have not been there.
:o
:p
Originally posted by shardl0r
No its not. There can be quite a bit of imbalance skillwise between the other classes, and barring the situation with melee spies vs apus the PPUs will decide the outcome.If you allow for imbalance in other classes you have to allow for imbalance in PPUs as well, and not just assume that the PPU is always 100% efficient and effective in keeping their entire team alive, buffed, and healed.
Unless you are claiming that a few crappy fighters and a crappy PPU will always beat a highly skilled and coordinated bunch of fighters/droners/whatever that dont use a PPU.
And I hope you wouldnt make that silly of a claim.
Whether people like using monks or not is irrelevant. If you want to win you are forced to use a monk. The point is people like to win. Does anyone enjoy losing?So why doesnt everyone play a monk if everyone likes winning and if you like winning you are "forced" to use a monk?
At least one of your two premises has to be incorrect.
However TL3 would an extremely small outcome on the result of the battle. It would help I'm sure, but it doesn't automatically decide the outcome (i.e. if the fighters make a huge strategical error, that TL3 won't save them, they will lose). As it stands at the moment, you don't need to fight with any sort of organisation if you've got PPUs to back you up. They compensate for lack of skill.First, I see you again assume flawless execution of PPU duties. I think if you fault fighters and their tactics you must fault PPUs as well.
Second, the TL3 heal would still cause PPUs to be valuable, and a team with PPUs would STILL have an advantage over a team without- and that is what people dont like. Sure, it wont be as exaggerated as it might be now, but it will still be the case.
The point is that its not the PPU that people dont like- is the generic support role. In ANY fight between even teams, where one team has support from ANY dedicated support character and the other team does not, the team with a support char WILL have an advantage.
The only way to stop that is to have both sides use support chars, or eliminate support chars.
And thats what I am saying here. I dont see any complaints posted about PPUs that are not just general complaints about support characters in general. While a Holy Heal might be too much to you, a blessed heal might be too much to someone else. The actual DEGREE of support doesnt matter, since that is pure opinion. What matters is that runners dont think its fair when one side has dedicate support and the other does not- even though nothing is preventing both sides from having it.
You can pass this off and say no, its the specific PPU as it stands right now... but as soon as you lessen the effectiveness of the PPU, pepole will STILL have the SAME problem... Normal or Holy Heal it doesnt matter. Team vs Team with Support- Team with Support has the edge.
And it will always be that way if support is available, and a team doesnt use it.
To illustrate, what about two teams, no PPUs, one team gets medkits, the other does not? Same thing- medkits are minor, but they would still make a big impact in an op war, right?
Originally posted by shardl0r
Well not really :) Cath up, buff your whole team, and then concentrate on keeping a single member of your team alive, against 2man team its pointless trying to stack any negative buffs. Your chosen member attacks the notppu member of the other team whilst your other 3 people spend thier time attacking/debuffing generally annoying the PPU so that he/she has to split his concentration to make sure he/she doesn't make a mistake, and sooner or later he/she will. If the 2 man team is smart they'll have to work out which member the PPU is concentrating on and ignore him, take the rest. If either PPU is not up to the standard of the other, that team loses. Again, the outcome of the battle is decided by the PPU factor.
In the 5v1+ppu battle the side with PPU will always win. As sw1tch said, you forget how ridiculous holy buffs. With only 5 people shooting at your teammate you might not even need heal sanc up. S/D + HH running should suffice. Its rather sad really, thinking about it. Putting in all that effort to collect the parts to get that 5 slot CS/HL/RoLH, and 5 people armed with these types of weapons are beaten by 3 little non-rare spells and a blue cloak =/
Cath sanct is good and bad. If you put it up, you render both you and the enemy ppu invulnerable. Sure he can nolonger weaken your team, but that would leave him to concentrate on keepin the person alive. I've seen it go either way.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Damn six pimps where pounding on me for about a minute and i ended up having to run away :(
Then i realised I didnt have my pa on lol
That hurts : (
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.