View Full Version : Neocron has one f****d up in-game economy...
Spectra260
07-01-04, 09:25
especially on saturn...
you offer someone 2 mill for a 4 slot holy heal and all they say is money is noobject to them...only the most rarest things in the game will be traded...like mc5 parts...etc...
thats fucking lame.
people have gotten so out of control with there money they wont even let a runner with a low ammount of money, offer everything he has to get just one fucking thing....and then laugh at him saying money means nothing...
i wish somthing would happen to stop the inflation of money...
its always the people who have every item in the game with high slots/stats multiple times...18 mill in cash...and are only looking for a dev part...or some MC5 chip...for a high slotted store bought spell...
im kinda mad....as you can see, but whatever...
/rant_off
*goes to corner of plaza 2*
/set kill_self 1
8|
FirestarXL
07-01-04, 09:29
It does suck when everything you have is not enough, but in this case, the economy IS inflated, which means in order for you to get your item he would have to make a huge loss. And it's unlikely some other person would show him charity because he showed you charity by taking your money which was worth way less than the value of the item.
Yes, something needs to be done about the economy. Maybe it already is, but we just haven't been told yet (i.e. BDoY related).
4 slot holy heal isn't even worth 2 million (especially on a 4 slot server).
Shame there aren't more nice and generous people out there. I had two 4 slot BlackSuns and a 5 slotter on Saturn. I gave one of the 4 slotters to this one lower level person that i've kept track of here and there, helping them out when I can. Gave it to them for free (I hate money [even in RL]. And didn't really care about what I "could get for it". I'm a nice guy. Sue me). I told them if they weren't comfortable with it being free, they could pay me however they saw fit. They said "is 50k okay?" I said sure, and knowing full well the kind of money or trade items I could have gotten for it elsewhere. Economy on that server is so screwed. People rarely sell anything, even ordinary run of the mill tech parts. People mostly only take trades. Sucks most of the time.
Spectra260
07-01-04, 09:59
Originally posted by Archeus
4 slot holy heal isn't even worth 2 million (especially on a 4 slot server).
yea i know..thats one of the reasons i like pluto > saturn
but lets not start a flame war ebtween servers:rolleyes:
shit man, saturn's economy has been like that for a long ass time...that's why i prefer to play on pluto...only way of getting shit is if you have friends...which i dont on saturn...
no one ever wants money on saturn...it's almost always a "WTT" kind of situation, sucks really :rolleyes:
As far as I can tell, its not so bad on Pluto, but I do kida know what yo mean, happened to a few people I know, not me yet though.
Original monk
07-01-04, 12:53
on saturn if ya want a level 2 chip like motoric 2 or even a LE chip ya gotta pay 100K atleast cause its not worth it to log to youre other char for only 50k ... says enough
we need an intresting moneysink, and by that i dont mean raise all storeprices with 200% or dont double the prices on lube or sumthing ...
its much easier ... put in every plaza a tech-o-matic where you can buy an unressed tech for 100k a piece, let the customer have the choice between an L, regular T or E part with a 1 chance in a 1000 that ya get an mc5 tech when ya choose the E-part
:)
Money does mean very little on Saturn ur better off going rare hunting.
The money situation needs to be fixed before BDoY so that any
new servers doesnt get the same inflation and new players on
the old servers has a chance to compete. I wouldnt mind a
money-whipe even tho it would hit me hard as well.
who cares about cash.... so easy to get O_o
But I like it at pluto I can get all my parts really easy "APU" :p
Last time I wanted core "had 1 part" thought it was gone...
Called out to buy all parts had it in 30 min for a price of 900 k
yay :D
Money = Worthless
Its all trading now, it must suck for the new guys, but most peopel try and help em out.
Original monk
07-01-04, 15:14
Originally posted by Rade
I wouldnt mind a
money-whipe even tho it would hit me hard as well.
i wouldnt mind it also, cause when they do that the first thing i gonna do is start buying veh.comps 10 and techparts so all my money is safe :P
Originally posted by t0tt3
who cares about cash.... so easy to get O_o That's why some of us want a money wipe as well as making cash harder to get.
If you're wondering, why would anyone ever want cash? It's pretty simple, let's imagine some dudes living in the time before money was invented, one of 'em is called Bob, and the other is called Dob, Dob's a vegetarian*. Anyway, Bob really needs some vegetables, but he's only got meat, and since Dob's a vegetarian (And the only one living nearby :P), he really doesn't want meat. Bob is now forced to die to some horrible disease because of not getting the necesarry vitamins.**
Money circumvents that problem by being universally desirable for trading.
*There most likely weren't any back then, but that's why they're imaginary!
**Replace some parts with techparts, and the final part with "Is forced to continue spamming trade" if you want it in NC terms. :P
MayhemMike
07-01-04, 15:16
Sold my moveon for 6mill on sat8|
Money doesnt equal nothing.....u see someone asking for a measly 5k in plaza 1 and u wont give it to them, why? because money means nothing to u :rolleyes: because we was all in that n00bs shoes at one point....im not snide with money/techparts, hell just recently i sold 3 parts to psi core to one person for 300k on uranus, on saturn i payed 350k for just one part where im totally new and not a exploiting /cst/resser/barter like i gurantee most rich ppl there are....Yeah wipe saturns economy...like thats gunna help one bit, its the way ppl there expect certain kinds of money, not cuz they have alot of money...wipe it and all that will happen is everyones constr/resser and barter will come and out, there wont be any action for a few days while ppl make money:rolleyes:
why should i sell a tech part when i after one ?
if i have asf part someone needs and they dont have a cath sanc part i need what is the point in selling it ?
to help someone out ? fuck that, i help out people who i like be it ive liked them for 1 minute or 1 year.
if someone ask me for money i always give it to them, they ask for 5K i give them 50K, but tech parts and high slotted guns/spells are a different ball game.
I always think that appartments shouldn't be bought but rented so that there is a money sink for all those with loads of shit, and it doesn't effect new players at all.
That way you pay the rent and horde all your stuff or sell it, keeping the economy moving. both would would be good for the game IMO
The thing is, the economy on some servers, (eg. Uranus) is perfectly fine. So any change would have to be server specific I think.
I certainly don't like the idea of rented apartments.
Personally, before any more changes are made we might as well wait for the DoY announcement ot see whats coming. Maybe KK have already come up with a system to help solve this problem.
Maybe player run shops will help to solve this problem.
At the end of the day, the players can always make a start on trying to solve it by selling their stuff at lower than the servers normal prices. After all, the players create the problem in the first place by inflating their prices. There are some easy ways to make lots of money anyway - esp. if you have a barter - resser - conster combo.
Athon Solo
MjukisDjur
07-01-04, 16:26
Ive spent 2 days now and built 200 holy heals and only come up with 4 3 slotters. It might not be worth 2 mil but pretty damn much :)
(my cst:ers dex/int is not so high though which might explain the poor super slotters)
Q`alooaith
07-01-04, 16:33
The chip problem's been around for a long time, I tryed to help out a few time's, mainly by lobbing free BP's of the item wanted onto people's head's in plasa 1, that's all I seamed to do was hand out BP's and laugh at people trying to rip off newb's..
Originally posted by stigmata
why should i sell a tech part when i after one ?
if i have asf part someone needs and they dont have a cath sanc part i need what is the point in selling it ?
to help someone out ? fuck that, i help out people who i like be it ive liked them for 1 minute or 1 year.
Thanks for hitting the head on the nail.
With a working economy you would sell the rare part for creds,
because you would buy the one you want with creds.
How about adding some items like ammo that does 10% extra damage, medikits that heal twice as fast etc, but cost 10x the normal price, can't be cloned and maybe decay over time even your backpack or GoGu.
You know the economy is screwed when almost everyone has 18 million in their pockets and another 100 million in stocks.
Hell, when I was a n00b on pluto, someone gave me 2 million for just standing there and letting him kill me over and over again.
Also got 8 con levels and 2 str levels so :p
He said that was just chump change :)
cba to read whole thread, but I primarily blame KK for our economy problems......it all starts with them putting things in game....letting 5 people get them, and then taking them away, making an event to where just one or two clans get like 100 of them and decide to sell em for 20 mil each........
Originally posted by Original monk
on saturn if ya want a level 2 chip like motoric 2 or even a LE chip ya gotta pay 100K atleast cause its not worth it to log to youre other char for only 50k ... says enough
And I sell Level 2 brain imps for 15-30k on Pluto :D
This is why I strongly support having a character wipe for Dome Of York. If we all simply move over there intact, we will ruin the experience for new players.
Pluto is usualy reasonable, everything was able to be bought until MC5 came in. It took a long time before people would actualy sell a mc5 part rather then trade. Now it's more reasonable, some only trade, others are willing to take money. That I can see, currently Kamikaze chips are the biggest problem. Since they don't spawn anymore, there is a limited supply. I think a kamikaze chip is even worth more then my ds, tho arguably my ds is useful to more people then a kami.
When vendors come out, I'm selling my bulk unid'd rares.
L - 10-20k (haven't decided yet =/)
T - 40k
E - 60k
Implants
Lvl 1 - 5k
Lvl 2 - 10k
Lvl 3 - 25k
Why I mentioned this, I dunno... But for some odd reason it seems to fit... Oh yeah! Because parts which I spent 5 minutes trying to get can be sold for in upwards of 800k.
:rolleyes:
The markets are in bad shape, but seeing as we are the people who make up the market, it's our job to fix it.
Originally posted by Genty
And I sell Level 2 brain imps for 15-30k on Pluto :D
And i used to sell most lvl 2 chips for 40-50K on Saturn (!)
Yesterday i bought a lvl 1 imp on pluto for 2K (!) Now THAT's cheap, broken - yes but still blueprintable.
Money wipe is not good, that's just gonna make people buy stuff before the wipe and still own lots of stuff, i know i would if i had still been rich (gave away all my shit to a noob on saturn when i left earlier)
Nightbrother
07-01-04, 22:42
Hmmm, in my experience lvl 2 imps aren't that expensive on Saturn. Today, Hellrazor (bless 'im) ran to his apt. and came back with a zerk 2 for me. I think he would have given it to me for free, but I gave him 30k for it. Would have given more if I was not poor at the time. Depends on the person you're buying it from.
Wish I had more patience sometimes when buying stuff, cause I'd get stuff for much less if I waited around for someone to sell what I need cheap.
Originally posted by ichinin
And i used to sell most lvl 2 chips for 40-50K on Saturn (!)
Yesterday i bought a lvl 1 imp on pluto for 2K (!) Now THAT's cheap, broken - yes but still blueprintable.
Cheapest Chip I sell is Psi-Controller 1 for 1k :p really does depend on the TL and parts needed for my prices. I was planning to set something similar up on Saturn but I don't want the hassle of finding all the BP's yet, too much work....
The thing is that... whilst nerfing the ability to get 10s of millions you also DON'T want to nerf money from mobs... whenever I start a noob char I really do strart with nothing and work my way up (I find it alot more rewarding) and everytime I feel that I am just about hanging on... strangly I really like that feeling, it would be boring if I had a million credits then, but at the same time if I was getting any less money from mobs I would feel that I just wasn't getting the money I needed to get new weapons and implants. Buying new weapons is very expensive for noobs and can well take up most of the money they have, especially if they want a good slottage or even average slottage.
On my main character who I have played since first day of retail I have only got 1.1 mil atm... and I have never had more than 1.5mil just because I don't hunt 24/7 or have a conster/rezzer and barterer I don't want to have the money that I DO have to be nerfed either. Alot of people are happy just having small money, waiting for a few months after new rares are realeased before getting them, when prices have dropped.
This is why I strongly support having a character wipe for Dome Of York. If we all simply move over there intact, we will ruin the experience for new players.
First, why can't the "new" players (both real new players and re-rollers) simply support themselves without feeding the existing, old playerbase? Why does everyone think they have to go to the older players to get things?
Second, a character wipe won't "fix" anything long-term. Within one week you'll have capped powerlevelers, then the rare market will be active again and prices will be stratospheric, with the powerlevelers/moneymakers owning the market.
Wiping characters is an extremist measure which does not "fix" any problems and hurts those who don't powerlevel. All it does is mask problems, not fix them.
The money situation needs to be fixed before BDoY so that any
new servers doesnt get the same inflation and new players on
the old servers has a chance to compete. I wouldnt mind a
money-whipe even tho it would hit me hard as well.
No, a "money-whipe" won't hit you hard. It'll be an annoyance to you at best. It'll hit people who don't know how to make money hard. It does nothing to those who are well-off now since at least some of them know how to get mega-rich in a rapid fashion.
...
Part of the problem I see is that people shout over and over and over for things like Level 2 imps, armor, low level (non-rare) weapons, and other buildable items. I happen to have the bulk of what people need - all buildable imps, most armor, almost all weapons (or BPs), etc. Why don't I sell? Because I'm out leveling or rarehunting, both of which are worth far more to me than making a few k off a new (or re-rolled) player. Once VENDORS go in, people can bulk build items and sell them while not physically present at the sale location (hopefully). That'll go a long way to fixing the current problem of hard-to-get regular items.
Time is money, even in NC. Right now, selling lower level items is a timesink. It's not worth my time to return to NC to sell a few imps and a piece of armor when I could be out gaining XP and rarehunting, both of which are worth far more than I charge for weapons.
Ice... telling them to fend for themselves is like throwing them to the wolves. Sure some will make it, but most will quit NC. Neocron's economy works on player interaction. One player did the work of gathering resources which other players will buy from him. It's really harsh to tell someone to go do all the work themselves. You're just isolating people, rather then working up a society. There will be two social groups in doy, one will be existing players who were around previous to doy, the other will be new players. Group 1 has resources uncomparible to anything Group 2 can comprehend. Do you have more then 10mil nc? Do you have an apartment full of rare parts and built rares? I know my stash is pretty ridiculous, I live on it without having to go out and do any work. Group 2 is scraping every penny together. Back when I first started Neocron I was broke all the time. The expenses of a leveling player are really high, all the new equipment to buy, and the pitiful money you make off selling at yos. I remember spendin an hour or so in the sewer collecting guns from mutants, just to go buy one new spell and have it built. The crucial key here is that when we started fresh, everyone was on the same level. The economy scaled down to fit new players, seriously having 1mil was rich. The majority of us managed to keep 100-50k in the bank. As we leveld up, the economy started moving with us. If we don't wipe characters, then the new players will enter a hugely bloated economy in which they do not make near enough money to afford anything. Meanwhile they will see us walkin around with impossibly rich characters. Using our 5slot weapons and even 5 slot rares. To make matters worse, starting a new character has become steadily harder. Many existing players earned their resources during a time when things were more plentiful. I remember doing batches of 100 or more rare parts daily. People hunted and amasssed stockpiles which are much harder to achieve now.
I never said this was a fix to the economy, it's merely the first step that needs to be made. Once the economy has been reset to start over, it can be tailored so that we don't end up ridiculously rich. What's the point in fixing when the damage has already been done? You're once again punishing new players, making it harder for them.
•Super|\|ova•
08-01-04, 01:09
Originally posted by Genty
And I sell Level 2 brain imps for 15-30k on Pluto :D
So you're back on Pluto? o_O
The only reason the economy is so fubar, is because of the old:
Barter / Research / Constructor / ASG Shop combination.
People making masses of Troop Carriers and selling to the ASG Shops for massive profit.
That's more or less the only reason things are so out of hand.
Ice... telling them to fend for themselves is like throwing them to the wolves.
And how did we do it, again? At least now, they have fansites, player guides, and tons of forum posts to sift through for information. They're not exactly "fending for themselves".
Neocron's economy works on player interaction. One player did the work of gathering resources which other players will buy from him.
No argument.
It's really harsh to tell someone to go do all the work themselves.
Where did I say one person? I said new players.
There will be two social groups in doy, one will be existing players who were around previous to doy, the other will be new players
This fact does not change, even with a player wipe. There are people who know NC inside and out, and will stick together to put themselves on top inside two weeks. This "helping each other out" stuff goes down the tubes when the powerlevelers already know what they have to do and don't want to bother helping new players. The truly new to NC are going to have to learn the ropes regardless.
The expenses of a leveling player are really high, all the new equipment to buy, and the pitiful money you make off selling at yosEquipment pays for itself, especially if a band of people come together and divy up the research, construction, barter, repair, and implant tasks. The difference between old players and new players is that the old players already have a network of relationships to make this all happen without effort - everyone already knows what they have to do.
Back when I first started Neocron I was broke all the time.
I wasn't then, and I won't be if I have to restart. But I will be pissed off at the "noobs" responsible for my character's removal...
The crucial key here is that when we started fresh, everyone was on the same level. The economy scaled down to fit new players, seriously having 1mil was rich.
Anyone who starts two new characters and knows what they're doing can generate 10 million inside a week. How many Plutonians have multiple accounts? I know I do...
If we don't wipe characters,Thankfully that's not going to happen, unless MJS changes his mind.
then the new players will enter a hugely bloated economy in which they do not make near enough money to afford anything.
Won't matter. Making money in NC isn't hard if you know what you're doing. Removing the characters won't change that.
To make matters worse, starting a new character has become steadily harder. Many existing players earned their resources during a time when things were more plentiful.
Uh, I don't know what you're doing, but most of my rares were obtained AFTER the drop nerf. The only things I had pre-nerf were an SS, SF, and some sets of rifle parts I still haven't used and probably won't be using any time soon due to my character's end-game skill level. My rareparts didn't even take up a whole cabinet. Now, I have over seven cabinets worth.
I remember doing batches of 100 or more rare parts daily. People hunted and amasssed stockpiles which are much harder to achieve now.
I get 15 to 20 rares on a day I hunt. I'm one person and have a limited killing potential. Because you aren't researching 100 rareparts a day doesn't mean others aren't.
it's merely the first step that needs to be made
It's a LAST step, if anything. Item wipes, money wipes, changes to money generation schemes, changes to drops - all that comes BEFORE the final straw which is a player deletetion. Until the system itself is FIXED, all wiping does is reward the powergamer.
If we don't wipe characters, then the new players will enter a hugely bloated economy in which they do not make near enough money to afford anything.
Why does anyone have to buy anything from an older player, beyond a few esoteric weapons that are of no use after a short period of time? I believe all the old Level 1/2 non-store items are dropping again (I've seen at least the level 1s when I stepped down to a TAR for a bit). Rares drop. Barter works for old and new, so why would a new player have to buy anything from an old player? If those new players aren't stupid and keep their rareparts pool in their own hands, then there's no reason they can't get all the parts they need on their own, as a group.
You're once again punishing new players, making it harder for them.
No, I'm not. The drop rate, rare drop rate, and some lower-level weapons have already been re-added to the game (closer to what it was like at the start of retail). It's possible for a group of new players to level up and obtain items without assistance from older players right now. GROUP, I said, not individual players. A new playerbase, learning the ropes by sifting through the forums, fansites, and playing together, can level up quite well without old-timer help. They even get to do it with LEs that have no restrictions, so they're completely protected from death by old-timers who like to PK. Can they go from zero to "almost capped" inside a week? No. Is there some reason they should be able to?
And how did we do it, again? At least now, they have fansites, player guides, and tons of forum posts to sift through for information. They're not exactly "fending for themselves".
How many people bother with this? Not many. If they need to dig around on fansites to understand how the game works then something is fucked up with the game. If something is fucked up with the game, they won't continue playing... And this is sorta' where we are now.
Equipment pays for itself
If the player knows how to work the system, which they won't unless other players go and help them. While repairing I'm never suprised when a spanking new player brings me a 'Poor' weapon that they spent all the money they've worked to get on. So I go and make them new weapons and explain the process.
All the other points, I have to agree with you though. Resetting won't help, sure we'll all be n00bs again, but the social contacts of old will ensure superiority... And those on top now would be back on top in a matter of days/weeks. Sure, they won't have the tons of stuff they do now... But it'll still be clan vs. the loner. And it goes without saying that it doesn't take long for clan resources to top off.
How many people bother with this? Not many.
This is an MMO, not Asteroids. It's not a casual game. It's not set up to be a casual game. I assume some level of intelligence to the players who join this game for the long haul. Part of that intelligence is knowing that MMOs are constantly evolving and their box manuals don't keep up. Neocron.com lists every set of patch notes in the news archives. KK maintains official forums available only to subscribers. While I listed fansites, if one wants to go on officially supported information alone, they can.
If something is fucked up with the game, they won't continue playing... And this is sorta' where we are now.
Not according to MJS, a KK person with access to accurate subscriber/player count records.
If the player knows how to work the system, which they won't unless other players go and help them.
I lumped "re-rolled" characters into the new playerbase category.
If people here calling for a character wipe are really behind the idea, they'll wipe their own characters at the launch of BDOY and help true new players. If they're not, they're going to sit on their existing characters...
Originally posted by IceStorm
This is an MMO, not Asteroids. It's not a casual game. It's not set up to be a casual game. I assume some level of intelligence to the players who join this game for the long haul. Part of that intelligence is knowing that MMOs are constantly evolving and their box manuals don't keep up. Neocron.com lists every set of patch notes in the news archives. KK maintains official forums available only to subscribers. While I listed fansites, if one wants to go on officially supported information alone, they can.
Not according to MJS, a KK person with access to accurate subscriber/player count records.
I lumped "re-rolled" characters into the new playerbase category.
If people here calling for a character wipe are really behind the idea, they'll wipe their own characters at the launch of BDOY and help true new players. If they're not, they're going to sit on their existing characters...
Sorry, I didn't notice that I had to enter my mensa membership number when starting my account.
Ok, lets look at it this way. For me and my brother, our copies of Neocron didn't come with a manual. "Odd" we both thought...
The manual he looked at online showed him enough to understand the basics, but at that time ALOT OF THE MANUAL WASN'T EVEN THERE. I, luckily, played beta a bit so I already understood alot of the game.
Now I look through stuff, the manuals that are published are as I mentioned, extremely out of date/incomplete. Neocron fansites themselves aren't newbie friendly because they cater to people who're playing, not starting. Patchnotes? Great, more gibberish because these people wouldn't understand what half the stuff mentioned is.
MJS is correct, the numbers of subscribers isn't going down, however the number of people actually playing is. Almost everyone I know in game pays by 3/6 month... So technically they're still active subscribers even though I haven't seen a good bunch of them in months.
Anyway, as you said, You'd assume that most players are intelligent. Assuming makes an ass and of you and me... You always have to shoot at the lowest common denominator, because most people are casual gamers and will never bother extending an effort.
yea its like this in SWG also,
on some servers you'll find 90% composite (which is godlike) for 50k per piece, bloodfin server for example, while on starsider you're lucky if you get one piece for 1million credits, this isn't completely abnormal that the economy is like this. Especially since Saturn has more players, more demand, etc. but the bartering stuff is stupid, you shouldnt have to trade to get stuff.
I'd like to see the economy stacked with a large and layered gap between the rich and the poor. This gives more meaning to the endgame after a player has capped. When I started playing everything was handed to me. I capped a PE in a few weeks and it's game over? I already have everything I need, and the best of what I can get for my setup. There's nothing left to work for other than bragging rights. There is nothing to be proud of in hoarding rares because every player does it. The only current items at the top of the economy now are high slot rares, MC5's, Kami chips, Terminator's, Filter 2's and some out of game novelties. There should be so much more than just these things, with multiple tiers of values. Having a "rare" should give a feeling of accomplishment and be a token for effort. Things don't need to be obscene like in other mmorpg's where you have kids dropping out of school just to get a rare, but should always leave players with a little something more to work for. For now, the new rares accomplish this nicely, but what about the classes and setups that don't get new rares? What happens when KK stops making new rares?
"money is noobject"
I completely disagree with you Ice : )
Are you really that cold to people you don't know? Maybe thats implied with your name : ) When I am in the sewers hunting along with other 0/2 players, I am making contacts and making new friends. Wether they have been around since Beta or just started for the first time. Sure I may move up faster then they do, but they will be in my network of friends now. I will help them if they need something. If instead I remain as my capped monk, I will have very little iteraction with new players. My time will be spent fighting other capped characters, building weapons, or chatting with my existing friends. I have nothing in common nor do I share anything with a new 0/2 player. I would be likely to treat them as a little puppy, pat them on the head and say go stay in the sewers until you're stronger! I don't think I'm that different in this regards then most players. I'm prolly nicer then most actualy. I currently have no reason to interact with new players, they exist in a different world from me. Some are more generous and actively try to help out new players. Most don't care at all. I stand by my assertion that if I started Neocron for the first time today, I would quit within the free week. Bugs in the game, silly tasks that are harder then they should be, little contact with the mythic capped characters. It really struck me when someone was amazed that I stopped to ressurect them and help them kill a warbot at MB. As I was somehow above that, helping mere mid/low level characters. That's what I fear will happen with BDOY.
if my pk mug system is put into play it would fix the inflation because none would be able to excape from pkers taking ur combat rank in cash :)
/70 = 7000 nc to me :) then u spend 10k for pak and imps ur good
and u lose like 1000 per rezz u take :)
we need more money hits. everyone is running with 18mill and dont need money anymore because their accounts r full.
Who cares saturn is a trade good based economy whats the big big deal. Barter with goods instead of cash.
Originally posted by BombShell
if my pk mug system is put into play it would fix the inflation because none would be able to excape from pkers taking ur combat rank in cash :)
/70 = 7000 nc to me :) then u spend 10k for pak and imps ur good
and u lose like 1000 per rezz u take :)
we need more money hits. everyone is running with 18mill and dont need money anymore because their accounts r full.
Bombshell you are onto something with that. Let me take it a step further.
Sell "belt insurance" at every terminal. If your policy is paid up, (say, 50k policy for a capped player) and you get ganked in an anarchy zone, you don't drop a belt. The killer gets the insurance equal to the value of the item you would have dropped (Yo's value?), you retain a balance and the house takes a little cash for overhead. Players are strongly encouraged to keep their policies paid. This could get expensive and encourage the weak to insert their LEs :D :D but overall I think I would consider this a great way to reward PKers without making carebears cry. I would prefer to be able to carry an arsenal of weaponry without fearing the possible permanent loss of my stuff. I'd love to get in and mix it up but hell, it took me 6 hours to get this gun made and my other one has to stay in slot 1.
As far as everyone having 18 mill in the bank, that's probably exaggerating it a bit although considering that a 3 slot rare can be worth 5 mil+ on Saturn I'd say a lot of high level players would have a cash-out value of 10-50 million+ :D :D
/edit if they implemented something like this they could probably get rid of the whole soullight bullshit system because PKers would buy insurance themselves :D
There are actually guys accepting money, however I've only met only a few that wants to trade items for items. But still, it's sad if you got a 100% barter, it's not like he can go and rarehunt himself to get parts to trade for other parts. o_O
MJS is correct, the numbers of subscribers isn't going down, however the number of people actually playing is.
MJS's numbers disprove your belief. Personally, Pluto is the same now as it was in June. It hasn't changed.
You'd assume that most players are intelligent. Assuming makes an ass and of you and me... You always have to shoot at the lowest common denominator, because most people are casual gamers and will never bother extending an effort.
It's a fair assumption to make. We don't live in the pre-UO/EQ world. The MMORPG concept isn't new. Shooting for the LCD is pointless - the LCDs don't have what it takes to play an MMO like NC, replete with its rough edges.
Are you really that cold to people you don't know?
I build complete sets of imps, armor, and weapons for new players, for free or low cost, when I'm not out leveling or trading parts. You tell me...
When I am in the sewers hunting along with other 0/2 players, I am making contacts and making new friends.
I don't go there. My character is too high-level. I could get a Mendicant or Companion out and go down into those levels, but I'm not capped yet and I've only got one SRI so far. There's no point to going now - I have a Monk yet to level...
Wether they have been around since Beta or just started for the first time. Sure I may move up faster then they do, but they will be in my network of friends now.But that's you. You can't speak for the rest of the playerbase, a playerbase you want to FORCE to relevel
I will help them if they need something. If instead I remain as my capped monk, I will have very little iteraction with new players.
Who says you have to keep your character? You can choose to delete it or equip low-level weapons to team with lower player. No one is forcing you to only work within your existing circles by not deleting your character.
Your suggestion to wipe characters doesn't even give one the choice - we're forced back into the stone age, forced to relevel hundreds of millions of XP points, forced to rebuild stocks of CPUs, weapons, blueprints, implants that we've spent over a year amassing, all for the sake of an as-yet-unknown number of "new" players.
If you want to start over and join the flood of "new" players you seem to be expecting, put your account where your post is - delete your monk, but leave me to assist new players in my own way.
I have nothing in common nor do I share anything with a new 0/2 player.
This doesn't change with a character wipe. As an old-timer, you have a knowledge of the game that no truly new player will have. You can't go back...
I stand by my assertion that if I started Neocron for the first time today, I would quit within the free week.
You didn't in Beta, so why would you do so now?
Bugs in the game, silly tasks that are harder then they should be, little contact with the mythic capped characters
How's that different from Beta? Bugs are ever-present, odd/difficult tasks continue to exist. It's not going to change, even with BDOY...
It really struck me when someone was amazed that I stopped to ressurect them and help them kill a warbot at MB.I have not met a single new player, beta or retail, who was not amazed when I've dropped a full set of imps, armor, and weapons on them at their start. It's nothing new.
Two and a half years of playing this game and the same warped char-wipe outlook still pops up. Thankfully MJS doesn't share it.
spikeownzu
08-01-04, 14:15
OPs generate so much cash that it completely outweighs anything we would spend cash on e.g NPCS
So theres no gold sink to drain any the cash out of neocron, thats why some clans have 87 million, its ridiculous
Originally posted by •Super|\|ova•
So you're back on Pluto? o_O
I have never been away for more than 1 week :confused:
That was due to one week of holiday in summer and 1 week where I needed a rest from pluto.
MJS's numbers disprove your belief. Personally, Pluto is the same now as it was in June. It hasn't changed.
Granted, only minor changes since June.
But it has changed since January.
Honestly, seeing as I'm now keeping 4 accounts other than my own warm because other people I play with have stepped out for awhile.
OK I'm not gonna argue with you anymore Ice, you don't read what I say and you're just trying to be argumentative for arguments sake.
A player wipe is good for the new players, not so good for the existing players.
Not having a player wipe is bad for new players, good for the existing players.
I enjoy starting over, only if everyone else starts over too. It doesn't work unless we all are 0/2 and starting off. This is a new game FFS. It's called Neocron: Beyond Dome of York. This is not Neocron with a new patch. Why do you assume you are entitled to the right to keep your character between games? I feel its a privledge that kk is allowing us too. It would be much easier to start NC:BDOY without any luggage carried over from NC. God forbid you actualy hafta do work in the game again.
Ugh I'm done.
Originally posted by Marx
Granted, only minor changes since June.
But it has changed since January.
Honestly, seeing as I'm now keeping 4 accounts other than my own warm because other people I play with have stepped out for awhile.
The player population has dwindled dramaticly since Neocron's release here in the US. I really don't care what statistics MJS is using, statistics can be made to show whatever you want. I'm a player in the game, I interact with players in the game. When people are quitting left and right, When the server populations are at best half of what they used to be, When you turn on all the custom chats and hear not a peep, When you walk into p1 and see maybe 4 ppl at most.. That's what I base my judgement on. The number of active accounts is irrelevant, the number of active posters on this forum is irrelevant. If you were to take the number of accounts and then parse out multiple accounts, then parse out accounts that are payed for 6 months but havn't been played for 3. I bet you would get a more realistic idea of Neocron's population. Also if you try sampling data from somewhere outside of Germany, maybe even over here in the US. You might find the numbers telling you something entirely different.
you don't read what I say
I read everything you say. You don't seem to be listening to my assertion that the old-timers aren't going to all go gah-gah over new players and hold their hands. Do you really think Vett and his cronies are going to give a damm about a new player beyond the virtual target they see painted on their backs?
and you're just trying to be argumentative for arguments sake.
I'm pointing out the flaws in the "char-wipe" mentality. It doesn't fix the game, it hurts new and non-powergamers, and helps the powergamers retain their dominance.
A player wipe is good for the new players, not so good for the existing players.
You've never answered my assertions that "old" players will simply pound out capped characters inside two weeks. Exactly how will new players do the same thing when they don't know what they're doing? Are they all going to be PEs or something?
Not having a player wipe is bad for new players, good for the existing players.
How's it bad if the philanthropic among the old timers are able to provide weapons that flat-out don't drop anymore for the new playerbase? How's it bad if we're able to provide Level 2 CPUs that are a pain to find? How's it bad if we can drop our combat rank and go hunting with new players to show them where things are?
I enjoy starting over, only if everyone else starts over too.
Why? Is there something I don't know about the LE that renders it useless? Anyone, anytime, can wipe their character, start over, and be completely insulated from the PK-fest, free to level and explore without interference...
It doesn't work unless we all are 0/2 and starting off.So now you want them to wipe every day? Dude, do you realize how fast every class can level? You'll see xx/40 tanks inside 24 hours of a wipe...
It's a falicy to think we're all going to be 0/2 for an extended period of time. The people that know the game will work the system just as they do now. We won't stay "new" for long at all. NC's going to take time to get into new player hands, and by that time the servers will be crawling with strong/capped characters.
Why do you assume you are entitled to the right to keep your character between games?
Because MJS said so?
This is not Neocron with a new patch
It's NC with a 300 to 400MB .pak expansion on the side and a new client-side executable. If you want to call a client-side update a new game, feel free. To me it's an engine/content update. EQ doesn't change its name when they do engine/content updates, nor do they call the game "new", they just slap a name extension on it. How's that any different than NC:BDOY?
God forbid you actualy hafta do work in the game again.
Uh, who says I ever stopped doing work? My character isn't capped - the one I started the day Pluto went live. I don't have all the items I want. I haven't built all the weapons I want. I don't have all the blueprints I want...
The player population has dwindled dramaticly since Neocron's release here in the US.
There was a surge, then it dropped off. Nothing new to an online game that I'm aware of.
I really don't care what statistics MJS is using, statistics can be made to show whatever you want.I think I'd trust the stats that determine cashflow. Active accounts and player popluations do that.
I'm a player in the game, I interact with players in the game. When people are quitting left and right, When the server populations are at best half of what they used to be, When you turn on all the custom chats and hear not a peep, When you walk into p1 and see maybe 4 ppl at most... That's what I base my judgement on.
I don't see you commenting in OCC, or any trade channels. I see new players every day. I see the same Pluto populations as June. I see chat on the channels if I talk. PL1 isn't populated because of the CA guard on the GR - your own clan moved to PL3, remember? I do business equally between PL1, PL2/PL3, and PL4 now whereas before it was virtually all PL1.
You're welcome to your judgement, but I rarely see you in PL3, I don't think you can easily go to PL1, and I haven't seen you comment in a custom chat channel in a few months. Maybe you play at different times than I do, but I'm doing plenty of business with PIMP, FF, unclanned Proto Pharma, N.E.X.T., NDA, SXR, Phoenix, etc. Because your circle of connections is dwindling does not mean everyones is. How you figure a character wipe will change that is beyond me.
I bet you would get a more realistic idea of Neocron's population.
What's more realistic than server player counts? MJS posted those. Those are hard numbers. Server distributions may have changed, but there's enough server-hopping going on to account for that. Is it the end of the world if people decide to try other servers?
This isn't Disneyland. Destroying everyone's characters and amassed stocks of items is not going to bring those people back singing cumbaya and holding hands to explore NC again. It'll be akin to poking a hornet's nest...
OK let me make it clear 4 u in the span of these 2 weeks me and a friend have bn bustin or asses for good shit coz we kinda got bored of the game so we decided 2 make some good spells. AFTER hours of researching shit like 200 bps of toxic beam energy beam, holy heal sanctum and other shit we got some 5 slots which we were hopin for more then we planned actually so we go 2 sell them and wat ahppens we get offerd crazy shit which was intended. The point of this is that every1 wants the shit and the fact is no1 wants 2 work 4 it as my m8 told me every1 sits in plaza all day whining o i wish i can do this and that or use this and that but wen u say lets level they dont do it (u may thinkim goin off the plot but no), all im saying is that its easy to do it all but kinda hard 2 get started and yes the ecenomy is fucked but the true fact is that money really is nothing and if u dont like the fact that they are sold 4 alot y dont u join them y dont u start making 5 slot shit its not easy but eventually u will realise money is nothing aswell. btw im loving the ecenomy rite now i mean there are some pple that want money and DEV parts LOL thats fukin awsome i traded 4 dev parts 4 an apu kami then traded the kami 4 and sa so in a way the economy is nice rite now altho sometimes i see stupid prices for shit like dev parts (reachin up 2 like 4 mill each WTF?!?!?!?!) no matta how rich u are thats gotta hurt if it turns out 0 slotter.
metalangel
09-01-04, 14:37
Anyone remember near the end of Beta4 when the StockX system was turned on? Instantly, half the server got IMPOSSIBLY, IMPOSSIBLY rich, thanks to the buggy stock prices. Vehicles cost insane amounts to repair! People were paying millions for chitin! It was hilarious, seeing people offering 10k per PIECE of chitin, alongside some poor n00b begging for 2k to buy a knife.
I don't think a cashwipe or charwipe is the answer - nor is it really fair to the people who've had their characters a year and will be understandably attached to them. We all were n00bs once, and didn't know anyone, and had to scrape together money. I remember doing endless parcel missions, or discovering the huge amounts you could make doing TG missions, or just running back and forth between the contact person and the crytons manager in the MB, for 750nc a go! Why should new players get a crutch? If everyone starts from nothing, you'll have an temporarily exciting period of powerlevelling to cap, followed by utter chaos as the capped clans terrorize people who haven't quite capped yet.
There are a lot of good, generous people on Saturn, who'll give rides, weapons and stuff for free to needy n00bs. But n00bs who run around Plaza begging for cash, sorry, there are completely safe delivery missions which will earn you that 2k you so desperately need.
I didn't want to continue this, but I'll just say a few things.
Just as you faithfuly believe MJS's statistics, you should notice he did call NCBDOY a new game. It is standalone and not related to Neocron except in some of the content. Neocron Players will be offered the chance to switch over to the new game and have their characters transfered. This is not a patch.
The custom channels are full of spam and rarely useful unless I'm trying to get a tradeskiller. I used to chat on them actively, but they've become soly used for complaining. When people lose at an op war, they go on ooc/trade and call the winning clan lame, trying to cite shady tactics they use. Pluto has really gone downhill with this, everyone tries to claim moral ground by blaiming their loss on a shady tactic. Yet when the tables are reversed, they are just as likely to use the same tactics. But even as I say it's spammy, it's not nearly as spammy as it used to be. That I can turn on all the channels and not see any messages for 30 seconds or a minute.. That would have never happened before. Maybe you're right, maybe my worldview is narrowed to the people I know. But when everyone I see tells me the same thing, that people are quitting and there's not much left to do. I tend to get the impression that it's not just me.
I didn't say anymore about the attitude of the community towards new players because we simply dissagree. I do not consider Vet the norm, no offense to him : ) Back before KK stomped down on killing, when low lvl players were slaughtered all the time in sewers. There was a backlash, believe it or not. Many of us would actively patrol the common hunting grounds to protect new players. The sl changes since then have driven off the people who prayed on easy targets. Which leaves the majority of us from the other group that prefers a challenge in our pvp. We're more inclined to help new players so they can level up and one day make another target to kill or teamate to backup. But as I said, we see the community totaly differently. There's no point in arguing it.
Lastly, I know you've been around since Beta, Ice. Do you recall the retail start? Some powerlevelers zoomed up and proceeded to start bashing each other over the heads. I said "some" many more of us proceeded along a slower leveling path, because while capping is important, it also marks the beggining of boredom and lack of things to do. The powerlevelers also often exploited certain areas to go faster then otherwise possible. I distinctly remember meeting many players who just started for retail. Probably half of the people I hunted with were new. I most definitly did not ditch them and go hunt somewhere else with my exclusive beta buddies. Instead I take them along with me, because they're not any less inteligent then I am. Just show them the spot and they can power level just as much as anyone else. By doing this, I had a much larger population of possible hunting partners, so I wouldn't be sittin around waiting for someoen to login so I could go hunt. I suppose it comes down to how you level up your character. Some people do it in isolation and just want to get it over with. Others are having fun along the way and do it in groups.
----
Yes the end of beta was crazy. People would tip me 100mil for a poke, even a bil sometimes. My character starting system was to be broke at first and work in p1 as a poker. Eventualy someone will give me a tip which will set me for life. Then I could go buy the stuff I needed and happily continue leveling. It was much harder once retail started : ) Though, I did receive some very nice tips by some players. The crackheads and ying's group would often come to me for pokes and leave me 50k or 100k tips. Of course they'd kill and loot me if they found me anywhere outside of a safe zone : )
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