View Full Version : buffing
Self cast skill boosters, heals shelters and deflectors and etc. Should over ride foreign cast.
This has many positive sides and no negitive ones.
eg.
Stops the annoying drone boosts from plaza 1.
Will stop the utter shittyness of level buffs being spammed about in PvP.
Shadow Dancer
03-01-04, 05:46
I would only be in favor of this after ppus are balanced.
Keyol45743241
03-01-04, 07:53
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I would only be in favor of this after ppus are balanced. word! :rolleyes:
VERY good idea .. ;)
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I would only be in favor of this after ppus are balanced.
apus too eh ? ;)
/€ blah
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I would only be in favor of this after ppus are balanced.
APUs too SD ;)
IMO they just need to get rid of/ultra-nerf Holy Para and PPUs are fine.
Lose the HP and I'd vote yes for sure.
ppu's are fairly balanced imo! the whole noob buffin crap needs to end tho and Parashock in any form the strength needs to be nerfed also
Shadow Dancer
03-01-04, 11:55
Originally posted by jernau
APUs too SD ;)
Well your entitled to your opinion. :p Personally I think apus are fine.
Originally posted by jernau
IMO they just need to get rid of/ultra-nerf Holy Para and PPUs are fine.
Lose the HP and I'd vote yes for sure.
All freezing should just be removed from PvP already ffs. Parashock should just be pvm only.
And um although in a way PPUs are fine, they are still too wayyyy important.
*cough* self-cast shields *cough*
:p
I vote no cos a) i'm lame and like to see ppus with nube shelters b) if they implemented this it would probably lead to a bug where chars could have 3 shelters cast on them.
I voted yes. It is something that has to happen, if even for just the PPU.
PPU's are pretty balanced now. 1 PPU can't protect everyone, so if you totally ignore them and kill everyone around them they have no way in hell of rezzing anyone without joining them. Sure you might not be able to kill the PPU but they sure as hell won't be able to do anything about it.
Also Tupac is right about the para fix.
I agree that once PPUs are balanced within the game (anti-PPU weapons introduced etc or whatever) self cast buffs should be overwrite any foreign. However, at the moment, this is one of the few tactics around that'll give a PPU a chance of dying.
skill boosters self cast only so no apu wants psi3 and no spy wants rifle3 and so on and so forth may aswell delete all skill booster 3's except melee then
Not self cast only. Rather self overides foreign cast.
edit - the pic didnt work :/
If we're only talking about the skill boosters I can't see any problems, it won't severely unbalance the game or anything, just override an annoyance.
Deflectors/Shelters/Heals should wait until some more time has passed, and it's not the only way for a group without an APU to beat a group with a PPU.
Deanus_willis
03-01-04, 16:30
uber idea, why the hell should we ppu's be screwed by others casting heal on us so we die. that makes no sense. Self cast should override foreign cast for sure
Yes to this Gestra, nice idea :D
Eledhbrant
03-01-04, 16:55
Yes.
The TL3 Heal is possible to deal with in combat usually, but a TL 25 shelter = PPU go down fast :/
Syntax-Error
03-01-04, 17:10
i voted no. cos i dont want a god walking around thnx :rolleyes:
ONOZ someone we can't solo kill just because they can't do dmg that makes no difference they must be gods nerf them nerf them all to hell (but come rez me or help me do mc5 plz)
Dribble Joy
03-01-04, 17:18
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
*cough* self-cast shields *cough*
indeedly doodley
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
i voted no. cos i dont want a god walking around thnx :rolleyes:
For someone who seems to think PPUs are gods (and being one yourself) you tend to die an awful lot to other players.
As the point has been made, self cast only. This means that other players can still get spells thrown on them, remember once a PPUs team dies then the PPU has to flee or die. There is simply no way to rez anyone while under fire on your own.
funkeymonkey
03-01-04, 18:06
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Well your entitled to your opinion. :p Personally I think apus are fine.
All freezing should just be removed from PvP already ffs. Parashock should just be pvm only.
And um although in a way PPUs are fine, they are still too wayyyy important.
*cough* self-cast shields *cough*
:p
Agree with u on all thoses shadow, though i would like to see apu's get some kind of shitty heal, even if its worse than a tl3 heal all over classes get to enjoy, it will still be better than med packs.
Whitestuff
03-01-04, 18:08
I say no because this would make the PPU worthless. Period. They are the medics of the game. They heal others, as well as themselves, they buff themselves and everyone else. They are supposed to. Are you just ignoring the fact that there are group spells? Are you saying that only group spells should affect other players? But you see, if you make all heals, shelters, sheilds, and boosts self cast, you will have the PPU who is unkillable, yes, but also worthless because he cannot kill anything and he can't affect other players, so he is basically an immortal who runs around watching everything. The proposed idea would defeat the idea of the Passive Psi Use monk.
If they removed freeze on the para (for players, not mobs) that would balance the PPU. Noob buffing is just a way to get around the powerful defense of the PPU, get over that fact. Now, if you want noob buffing out, make anti-heals and anti-buffs cast faster. I think an anti-heal should cast just as fast as a heal and the same with anti buffs. And rare anti-buffs should cast the fastest, not the slowest. That is the only way I can see to remove n00b buffing without making PPU's unkillable. Just cause a PPU has the best defense does not translate into unkillable.
Ok hm, I wrote a load for this thread then I realised that I was thinking of self-cast s/d not overwriting buffs with higher level buffs, so this will most likely be short-ish.
To begin with being nub buffed is perhaps one of the most annoying and frustrating things that can happen to a PPU in this game, mainly because it denies them the ability to use their own skill and buffs to survive, I also see it as a bit ridiculous when clans begin having people (and even PPUs) dedicated to just noob buffing their opponents PPUs, as this obvioulsy is not how the spells were ever intented to be used, seeing as they are passive spells, not offensive as people have teken to using them. Before people argue that this is a 'tactic' may I point you towards the whole debate of Holy Para and its brethren, another example of a PPU spell being used offensively.
Though I have taken out PPUs and my (now ex clan I suppose) didn't use noob buffing to take down enemy PPUs it obviously isn't that essential in OP wars with a bit of practice and know how, what is perhaps of greatest concern is that people who do not have an army to shoot at PPUs, say in PP other such places will find it hard if not impossible to kill a ppu without noob buffing (if this change is put into the game), and the only solution that I can think of is to give atleast 1 other class the ability to anti-buff a PPU (spy or PE would be best for this imo, doesn't really matter which), as atm it's just stupid that the only (easy-ish) way to kill a PPU is with an APU (effectively and quickly atleast), the phrase "Fighting fire with fire" comes to mind here. Just give the class a item with a charge time of about 10 seconds that removes the PPUS s/d, problem solved imo.
[EDIT] Also i think that long buffs should not be able to overrided, as this could be exploited too easily and used like the tl3 heal and so are now.
Shadow Dancer
03-01-04, 21:13
Originally posted by WhiteKrAkRBOi
I say no because this would make the PPU worthless. Period. They are the medics of the game. They heal others, as well as themselves, they buff themselves and everyone else. They are supposed to. Are you just ignoring the fact that there are group spells? Are you saying that only group spells should affect other players? But you see, if you make all heals, shelters, sheilds, and boosts self cast, you will have the PPU who is unkillable, yes, but also worthless because he cannot kill anything and he can't affect other players, so he is basically an immortal who runs around watching everything. The proposed idea would defeat the idea of the Passive Psi Use monk.
Lol
I said self-cast shields. That's it. Not self-cast heal and boosts.
Originally posted by Possessed
and the only solution that I can think of is to give atleast 1 other class the ability to anti-buff a PPU (spy or PE would be best for this imo, doesn't really matter which), as atm it's just stupid that the only (easy-ish) way to kill a PPU is with an APU (effectively and quickly atleast), the phrase "Fighting fire with fire" comes to mind here. Just give the class a item with a charge time of about 10 seconds that removes the PPUS s/d, problem solved imo.
Personally, I think each class should get a form of anti-deflector and/or anti-shelter. Like a tool that gives some SI after use(to mimic the downtime of mana when using antibuff as a apu) and has low rof.
Although holy antibuff might have to be removed(or changed to do something else) if that was to happen.
Whitestuff
03-01-04, 22:38
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Lol
I said self-cast shields. That's it. Not self-cast heal and boosts.
Personally, I think each class should get a form of anti-deflector and/or anti-shelter. Like a tool that gives some SI after use(to mimic the downtime of mana when using antibuff as a apu) and has low rof.
Although holy antibuff might have to be removed(or changed to do something else) if that was to happen.
Buy removing S/D you still eliminate the use of PPUs even if they can still heal.
I agree, each class should get an anti-heal and anti-buff device and to make it all easier, make all self cast spells overide the foreign ones. That way, all foreign spells are negated, not just n00b buffs, but all of them.
Shadow Dancer
04-01-04, 03:00
Originally posted by WhiteKrAkRBOi
Buy removing S/D you still eliminate the use of PPUs even if they can still heal.
No. They will still have a use. PPUs are far too important the way they are now, that needs to be changed. Even without shields, heals, ressurection, damage boost, and level 3 buffs are still uber and very useful. Eliminate their use? C'mon let's not exaggerate.
Heh, if you will stop playing a PPU just because you no longer need to s/d others you're playing a PPU for the wrong reasons. Also if s/d were made self-cast it would mean that PPUs would have to start paying more attention to their teams and keep heals up on as many people as possible, a) making it harder to be a good ppu, more awareness of your team mates etc. need and b) reduce the amount of paraing and dbing going on as the PPUs wouldn't have time for it....
If s/d were removed the classes would instantaneously become balanced aswell (with just perhaps a reduction on the run speed nerfs with drawn weps), as it would mean that the tanks would become the main damage dealers (as they have the best offense to defense ration), the apus will be forced into a more support role, as they will be unable to stand still in the middle of a op fight clicking away like idiots without a care in the world. Well setup spies and PEs would then have the highest defense (with spies getting slightly lower defense but slightly higher offense than PEs), actually making them useful for op wars....
Psycho Killa
04-01-04, 03:20
What needs to happen is this needs to be implemented so that you cant be noob buffed.
Though also if this was to be implemented it would have to be in the same patch as a ppu nerf beacuse ppus are not overpowered... theyre INSANELY OVERPOWERED. Straight from a ppus mouth.
Yes this idea implemented without a ppu nerf would be devastating as it is the only way at the time to properly kill a ppu without one or several apus.
I have like 99% protection against pierce force energy fire and xray and 71% protection against poisin... I also can use holy heal which is like 35 health a tick. Meanwhile I have about 412 hp. So in one cast of a heal I can MORE then heal my whole hit points. Now also I can Damage Boost enemy players which increases the damage they take by quite a high amount. I also can paralyze people which basicaly makes them a sitting duck unless theyre drug addicts. Lets not I can increase the hitpoints, resists, and combat abilities of anyone I chose to. And to top it all of I CAN BRING PEOPLE BACK FROM THE DEAD.
So im inclined to disagree with people who say ppus are balanced.
There are alot of ppus that cant take this beating but a great majority of these are the ones who are not dedicated to truly being a ppu and just felt like trying out the godmode bandwagon.
I think PPUs are balanced really, apart from the para shock, that needs major nerfing, why can they freeze people while every other class has had their para weapons nerfed. Apart from that I can't see any thing wrong with the PPU class, s/d should be a bit weaker though when casted on others, not much just a tad.
Also, I think yuor idea is good, I don't personaly think being newbie buffed is an expliot like some people, cos its not, but it must get annoying, so I like your idea.
damn el barto... you're so sexy :P
:lol: :)
Keyol45743241
04-01-04, 07:40
PPUs almost perfect OMG, it's fucking not! Stop those soothing chants, nobody believes them anyway! :mad:
The PPU is still the single most disruptive class to the whole gameplay. Period. Yes, the rezztime was adjusted. So what? It didn't change much about how overpowered the PPU is, he can still eat insane amounts of damage, he can still rezz under fire, since he can OUTHEAL A FUCKING RHINO MAIN GUN.. and we're not talking about himself, we're talking about his APU. Not even considering droners, guess what happens when a remotely highlevel PPU shows up? The PPU can still nuke the drones with his superglue - it still has insane range and does quite a lot of damage to a drone - about 1/3 of the healthbar.
For christs sake, we chased a PPU with two rhinos, once the PPU made it to the sync border where he kept jumping back and forth - no chance to kill him. In the end, he was damboosted and frozen, limping to the next generep while being chased by 2 pissed midlevel tanks, one Rhino, one PE and two PPUs. Yes.. One of those should have shitbuffed him instead of shooting and it could have taken another ending - but you rather consider that "unfair", don't you? Well, the combined efforts of 7 people didn't suffice to kick the PPUs arse. Which is, what I consider... overpowered.
Why kill someone and run away? When you come back, the guy is standing again. Death has lost its fear, completely and utterly.
So, the solution: Remove double castings of area heal and single heal, make only one count, the highest even. Make rezzing give 20% impair and loss of ONE imp. If you don't get rezzed and backpack, you'll loose minimum 4 imps and get 50% impair. Thus, if you go back to the fight and are unfortunately, you can very well carry your dimension splitter around with you ... to drop... or your 5 slot holy lightning :eek: decisions, decisions :rolleyes:
Decrease the healing speed by half... but keep the amount similar. Thus, it won't make much of a difference, apart it takes longer for everyone to regain his hitpoints and remove the "unkillable ppu outhealing damage" from the game. Yes, he can still heal. Huge amounts. But not so much to make hurting someone (including himself) a farce.
Because of this, a lot of ppus will learn how to poke since they will want to offer complete services at the battlefield - wich detracts from their other int specific skills, most notably PSI Use, degrading them a tiny little bit.
Make 3er tradeskillbuffs uncastable on oneself. Thus prevent tradeskillers without real skill. A PPU is a better imper, because he has to invest 20 less skillpoints, adding the glove to the equation he can easily and reliably poke tl 115 while paying a LOT less (..20 - that correct?). This also prevents the added health the melee buff, which every PPU carries, to be used quickly to buff the health.
Increase casting time for catharsis & catharsis sanctum
give other classes or combinations PPU defeating weaponry... for example, the rhino - make every third shot deshelter (or fifth or thenth or whatever... balance is the keyword) like the apu spell. So on a plain and outside the OP itself, the war will be dominated by Rhinos, it even hurts an apu if he looses his shelter all of a sudden since then next two shots will suffice to gun him down. Or a kind of pistol only a spy can use... thus creating the need for pistol spys which are supposedly even rarer than droners.... considering purebred fighters which aren't tradeskiller hybrids because they have to invest only a little into weaponlore....
Yes, I know. All these changes implemented and the PPUs won't be the kings of the battlefield anymore, wading unscathed through insane amounts of fire but rather be primary targets to disable as quickly as possible. But still, a PPU could mean the difference between victory and defeat..... make a field hospital where the PPUs can tend the wounded, the defenders can set one up in the underground... you're doing first aid and surgery ffs, you're not supposed to be invincible. The PPUs role is important enough without having godmode :(
Where would that lead to? A huge amount of disgruntled PPU players, lomming to APU where at least they can kill something. But then, a bunch of APUs would think more than just twice of rushing out to kill a sniper... since being dead means DEAD! If less PPUs are available and no one can outheal the sniper anymore, you're advised to take cover instead and call someone (like a droner, vehicle, stealther.. maybe even tank, who has the hitpoints and armor to eat a few shots) else to do the job... the right tool for the right job, get my drift?
Same goes for Anti Vehicle Weaponry... why carry an Anti Vehicle Launcher... your APU does similar damage over time (if the target is not stationary, that is) since missing a rhino with point&click is... well.. ridiculous while it is happening most of the shots with the anti vehicle launcher. Not even considering those who nuke the thing with the help of externalcam from the perfect safety of a treestump or similar. :rolleyes:. Where does that leave us? Apus nuking the Rhino? Yes, with less use for the class intended for such encounters - the tanks, who can, by nature, use those Anti V launchers which miss a lot but when they hit do huge amounts of damage. Solution? Either reduce damage taken from spells ... or make APUs DIE from the Rhino main gun, even with PPU behind them, as described above. Thus fighting off vehicles would naturally become the domain of tankehs instead of the catchall APU/PPU combo so well loved at the moment. Diversity..... right now a clan containing only Monkehs can with GOOD chances win an Opwar. Show me the spyclan, who can do similar things? Or the tankclan? The poor sods can't even hack the OP in the first place - but on the other hand, all chances are open for the monkeclan - which is just not right :(
Go try to see the game from someone elses perspective who happens to NOT have a ppu velcroed to his rear :mad:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I would only be in favor of this after ppus are balanced.
k remove parashock
then they are balanced then we can focus complaining on PEs, then tanks, then probably monks again because people actually enjoy playing that type of char
oh and let's nerf ppus even more to the point where no one plays as them and they are useless to even exist. Let's see a type of char that can't hurt anything can't keep himself alive... sounds 'fun' to me. Jesus, quit moaning for once it takes effort to stay alive when being zerged as a ppu. Some ppus have excellent setups that means you have to figure a way to outsmart them and beat them. But oh no.... we can't bother to think or put forth effort because 'I'm the uber pker who should be able to take down anyone with a few clicks of the mouse'
Psycho Killa
04-01-04, 08:08
Poser drop it.
Im a ppu
ppus are overpowerd.
If you cant see that your either biased blind deaf or stupid.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Poser drop it.
Im a ppu
ppus are overpowerd.
If you cant see that your either biased blind deaf or stupid.
I have every right to my opinion, so no I won't 'drop it'
Keyol45743241
04-01-04, 08:22
But reality kicks you in the nuts..... doesn't that hurt?
PPUs need to lose para nobody disagrees or virtually nobody does.
Holy heal needs a bit of a tone down nothing too drastic maybe 5 to 10 % reduction.After seeing a mate of mine outheal 2 tanks with a ppu paraing and db him and having 3 turrets shooting him and being pinned to a wall with a stun and still managing to res my tank (old res time) Im convinced that holy heal is over-powered.
Foreign casts are okay maybe a slight drop in efficiency.
Self casts need to be taken down a bit though them coupled with holy heal make ppus too invincible and I know that ppus are meant to have an uber defense but their defenses arent meant to be impenertrible with less then 4 or 5 people on a decent ppu.
Apus are actually fairly balanced but its hard to tell with the random damage stupidity that their spells have, if kk made it a near constant damage then it could be properly judged as to whether they over or under powered.
As to self cast over riding foreign casts only if and when ppus are ever balanced, I know its lame but sometimes hitting them with a tank heal and def and then a speedygun is the only away to kill the bastids.
Dont get me wrong I dont think ppus should be killable by 1 runner but it shouldnt take 4 or 5 to do it.
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
The PPU is still the single most disruptive class to the whole gameplay. Period. Yes, the rezztime was adjusted. So what? It didn't change much about how overpowered the PPU is, he can still eat insane amounts of damage, he can still rezz under fire, since he can OUTHEAL A FUCKING RHINO MAIN GUN.. and we're not talking about himself, we're talking about his APU.
Holy Damage boost the APU and nothing will save them against a Rhino gun. I know, I've been in that situation. In an APU/PPU combo you always kill the APU first. Once he's dead the PPU isn't going to be able to do anything.
As has been pointed out Rez time has been changed. PPU has a simple choice. Rez or fight. They cannot do both and 30 seconds - 1 minute is more then enough time to disrupt a PPU from rezzing at all especially considering in that time they cannot cast heal or shields.
The PPU can still nuke the drones with his superglue - it still has insane range and does quite a lot of damage to a drone - about 1/3 of the healthbar.
Revenges drop PPUs very quick to a point where they start getting worried.
The problem wasn't that the PPU is a god. It was that you had no idea on how to fight one and you clearly came up against one who knew what he was doing.
Take Syntax for example, killed with ease the other night and is a PPU. I was attacked last night by 3 guys and fell. Granted I lasted for nearly a whole minute but the amount of damage they were throwing on me it was impossible to see or do anything. I have also met players who have dropped me in a couple of seconds even though I was fully buffed (and they did not have a PPU/APU with them).
We were playing with some stuff last night at Fight Night. Fire stacked damage, PSI Attack spell (seems to be insane on some monks) seem to work quite well. I would also suggest you practise with anti-shock drugs, with them you can only be glued for 1-2 seconds.
as good as this idea is, sometimes the only way to kill a PPU that hides by the guards in pp1 waiting to zone, is the 'ol antibuff and noob shelter
fight lameness with lameness if you gotta, nuff said
Keyol45743241
04-01-04, 18:08
Originally posted by Archeus
Revenges drop PPUs very quick to a point where they start getting worried.
The problem wasn't that the PPU is a god. It was that you had no idea on how to fight one and you clearly came up against one who knew what he was doing.ONOZ!!!OMG YUOE HAVE NO CLUE!!one!11!1eleven1!!!!1 8|
For fucks sake, PLEASE get one before you remotely consider taking part in this discussion again :rolleyes: :mad:
Yesterday someone tried to kill me (200 hitpoint droner spy witout resistances and 30% impairment due to generepping => low armor) with Kamidrones at the generep. Fuck, even I OUTHEALED THE DAMAGE it did, since the freqency is so low. And by the way, the damage it does is capped at 1/3 of the victims maximum hitpoints. So even due to the fact that you heal naturally a tiny little bit, even when AFK, you need AT LEAST four Kamidrones (at 4 weight units each) which take around 10 to 40 seconds (if you don't encounter one of the "drone doesn't start" bugs) to their target. Yes.. you can kill a PPU with kamidrones! If he is afk, not moving (do you have a clue about the difficulties of actually hitting a moving target with a kami? Obviously not!), not syncing away, not healing (you can have a heal running the whole time while rezzing - if you know how) and doesn't have any defenses up :rolleyes:
By the way... holy damage boost.. may I quote myself?
Go try to see the game from someone elses perspective who happens to NOT have a ppu velcroed to his rear :mad:Yes... that WILL drop an APU, no questions asked... but we're talking about how we need to take importance away from the disruptive class. Nice example by the way FOR THE OTHER SIDE :rolleyes:... get a clue, please. Once again, reality kicks someone in the nuts..... :(
ghandisfury
04-01-04, 18:56
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
[B]ONOZ!!!OMG YUOE HAVE NO CLUE!!one!11!1eleven1!!!!1 8|
For fucks sake, PLEASE get one before you remotely consider taking part in this discussion again :rolleyes: :mad:
[B]
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and your bias is so blinding with your last post it's almost comical. That PPU you were chasing could do no harm to you. That PPU had no way of thwarting your efforts to kill him. All he could do is run....and this makes you mad that you could not kill him....cause he was running? A PPUs weapons are his shields/buffs, yet it's people like you (and others) that feel his weapons should be useless, even to himself. You feel these weapons are to strong even though they can't hurt you. You feel they are to needed even though you beg for them when PPUs are around (take note you had TWO with you). You feel that "death should be feered", and an "extra long timesinc" should be implemented. Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events but Rezz got a huge nerf last patch, and you want more? I'll tell you what I'll accept death having big consiquences when I stop fataling, and when I can see my body health when I'm hacking/droning, and when they get rid of noob buffing, and when they get rid of long sincing, and when they fix the other million things that can cause death without me being able to fight back.
Take note that PE's have been the last target for nerfs, and I saw it coming from a mile away...why? Because they have the second highest lvl buffs in the game. So many people think "if I can't kill it easily it must need a nerf"......I'm sick of people like you that don't bring anything usefull to a debate....you only crie for nerfs. All I can hope for is your class is next.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
PPUs need to lose para nobody disagrees or virtually nobody does.
I disagree, Parashock = the win. Its a nice team spell for a team game. Getting a parashock on an enemy can be as good as landing a holy heal on a team person they both can alter the course of a battle. And it is rather balanced considering now it takes almost 2 seconds to cast it.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and your bias is so blinding with your last post it's almost comical. That PPU you were chasing could do no harm to you. That PPU had no way of thwarting your efforts to kill him. All he could do is run....and this makes you mad that you could not kill him....cause he was running? A PPUs weapons are his shields/buffs, yet it's people like you (and others) that feel his weapons should be useless, even to himself. You feel these weapons are to strong even though they can't hurt you. You feel they are to needed even though you beg for them when PPUs are around (take note you had TWO with you). You feel that "death should be feered", and an "extra long timesinc" should be implemented. Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events but Rezz got a huge nerf last patch, and you want more? I'll tell you what I'll accept death having big consiquences when I stop fataling, and when I can see my body health when I'm hacking/droning, and when they get rid of noob buffing, and when they get rid of long sincing, and when they fix the other million things that can cause death without me being able to fight back.
i 100 % agree :)
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
But reality kicks you in the nuts..... doesn't that hurt?
yea it must hurt being surrounded by 7 players that cant kill one ppu.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:p
.cy
VVerevvolf
04-01-04, 21:01
Originally posted by ghandisfury
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and your bias is so blinding with your last post it's almost comical. That PPU you were chasing could do no harm to you. That PPU had no way of thwarting your efforts to kill him. All he could do is run....and this makes you mad that you could not kill him....cause he was running? A PPUs weapons are his shields/buffs, yet it's people like you (and others) that feel his weapons should be useless, even to himself. You feel these weapons are to strong even though they can't hurt you. You feel they are to needed even though you beg for them when PPUs are around (take note you had TWO with you). You feel that "death should be feered", and an "extra long timesinc" should be implemented. Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events but Rezz got a huge nerf last patch, and you want more? I'll tell you what I'll accept death having big consiquences when I stop fataling, and when I can see my body health when I'm hacking/droning, and when they get rid of noob buffing, and when they get rid of long sincing, and when they fix the other million things that can cause death without me being able to fight back.
I'm a ppu.
I use Holy Paralysis, damageboost, then I use Holy ParashockBolt.
This kills almost every spy (especially with True Sight), hell, I even killed a tank with it (somewhere in the desert, he used antistun all the time, until he had an enourmus drug flash and then he died to my holy parashock bolt.)
My comment to: PPUs can't harm anyone.
€: Spellfrequence is 105, damage is capped, psi cost: 3.
Just be prepared to holy Paralyse him time to time, and you can kill every class except most PEs and PPUs who aren't able to reach the nearest genrep.
€²: My suggestion: Foreign-cast Holy Heal and Blessed Heal tuned down to 50% of self-casting effect.
Dribble Joy
04-01-04, 21:05
Originally posted by Gestra
I disagree, Parashock = the win. Its a nice team spell for a team game. Getting a parashock on an enemy can be as good as landing a holy heal on a team person they both can alter the course of a battle. And it is rather balanced considering now it takes almost 2 seconds to cast it.
The problem with para (and freezers in general), is the removal of skill from the game.
You are dodging and weaving like mad and giving people a tough time to hit you and suddenly you cannot move, your turn speed is pathetic. Nothing you can do, you're dead in seconds.
The removal of control of your char is the key thing here.
good idea...sick of having normal shel slat on my apu in pvp by some fagend Skuld :rolleyes: n00b
The whole freezer malarky is a bug, holy para shouldnt hit that hard and wont hit that hard after next patch, whenever..... :(
how about people stop moaning about nerf this nerf that, and try to get some of the bloody bugs fixed....
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
The problem with para (and freezers in general), is the removal of skill from the game.
You are dodging and weaving like mad and giving people a tough time to hit you and suddenly you cannot move, your turn speed is pathetic. Nothing you can do, you're dead in seconds.
The removal of control of your char is the key thing here.
You can move while para'd, just slower.
So what your are saying is the people who can still fight while parashocked are much more skilled than all the people who continually whine about it on the forum?
Originally posted by Gestra
You can move while para'd, just slower.
So what your are saying is the people who can still fight while parashocked are much more skilled than all the people who continually whine about it on the forum?
haha what? :wtf:
soz but im good and im not good while frozen....its not that i have no skill its that i prefer to move my mouse accross my pc table and not a floor where it takes 1m strokes to turn :rolleyes:
ghandisfury
04-01-04, 22:11
Originally posted by VVerevvolf
I'm a ppu.
I use Holy Paralysis, damageboost, then I use Holy ParashockBolt.
This kills almost every spy (especially with True Sight), hell, I even killed a tank with it (somewhere in the desert, he used antistun all the time, until he had an enourmus drug flash and then he died to my holy parashock bolt.)
My comment to: PPUs can't harm anyone.
If the spy didn't stealth, then he is stupid. And if he didn't have antishock in his belt, then he's stupid. If you killed a tank with parashock (post-nerf) then the tank is shit (and they are going to fix the bolt)......now, I never said that I couldn't kill a player 1vs1. Hell given enough time you could have killed him with a baseball bat, yet this proves nothing. PPUs cannot kill even an average player unless he sticks around like a dumb ass getting punched in the face. In the above post annalasys he stated he couldn't kill a PPU with 5 shooting players (two PPUs), and all the PPU could do was run.
Originally posted by VVerevvolf
€: Spellfrequence is 105, damage is capped, psi cost: 3.
Just be prepared to holy Paralyse him time to time, and you can kill every class except most PEs and PPUs who aren't able to reach the nearest genrep.
You're correct, spell freq is 105 and range is insane....but if that player sticks around trying to kill a player that can do 5 points of damage every hit then he deserves to die. And tbh I find it hard to believe you're a PPU if you honestly beleive a PPU would die to parashock bolt:rolleyes:
Originally posted by VVerevvolf
€²: My suggestion: Foreign-cast Holy Heal and Blessed Heal tuned down to 50% of self-casting effect.
My suggestion is to fix noob buffing, and all the bugs in the game.
VVerevvolf
04-01-04, 22:44
I said all except PE and PPU. This means, spy dies (most of them take like 12-20 damage each hit), tank can die, apu can die.
PEs won't die and ppus never.
And I said you need to recast Holy Paralysis from time to time.
And I said with True Sight. Goddamnit, learn reading.
Keyol45743241
05-01-04, 00:35
Originally posted by ghandisfury
[...] ......I'm sick of people like you that don't bring anything usefull to a debate....you only crie for nerfs. All I can hope for is your class is next. I play a droner, did you already forget? :lol::rolleyes: I'm kind of nerfed by birthright :p
Err... yes... comical you said. Well... answer to one ARGUMENT instead of silly ranting. I can cope with ranting, but unless you at least sometimes drop *some* logical reasoning at some point in your post you're just making fun of yourself... :o
A PPU can do nothing but run? :wtf:? WTF? He makes the other team 'teh win' and my team 'teh sux' just because of his presence. No, I'm not talking about newbie or stupid ppus (those who die after being shitbuffed). With a good sense of timing and some thinking you can archieve godmode. Why isn't my Droner class allowed the same?
Even if the PPU didn't have any defenses for himself at all, he'd have a great value in any fight. So great, that all energy would be used to deprive the enemy of that asset.
Right now it's a "Kill the Damagedealers first and after everything is dead, shoot at the enemy PPU", who, by that time, has retrieved his teams belongings from the various belts. If you win, that is.
People don't shoot the enemy PPU last, because he is unimportant!? But because he is virtually indestructable! He is, with the current state of patch, capable of boosting your team by more than 500%+ efficiency. Yes... they nerfed rezzing. So what... a *good* PPUs team doesn't die in the first place. So actually, there hasn't been a difference at all. Add to that the ability to outheal almost any damage done to his team, even after they just rezzed (I've seen a PPU letting area heal run while rezzing, the first salvo of the (capped) particle nemesis didn't suffice to put the APU to the ground again and thus lost any chance to keep that victim lying on the floor and staring at the sun.
Or say, a Rhino4x4 shoots at an APU/PPU team... add a tree to the game and guess who will loose in the long run? If the Rhino crew plays the game to the bitter end and the APU actually looks for his shelter/health at some point to take cover? Well...? Go ahead and guess?
Dade Murphey
05-01-04, 00:40
Originally posted by Gestra
Self cast skill boosters, heals shelters and deflectors and etc. Should over ride foreign cast.
This has many positive sides and no negitive ones.
eg.
Stops the annoying drone boosts from plaza 1.
Will stop the utter shittyness of level buffs being spammed about in PvP.
Why not just have higher lvl spells override lower lvl spells, period....that way some dude is casing low lvl heal on you then you PPU friend could still cast high lvl heal on your...a higher lvl skill booster would override a low lvl skill booster reguardless of type etc.
I've an idea! I've an idea!!
Very unpopular one I bet, but it makes sense.
So these capped PPU's can't help newbies up to stupidly high levels by protecting them against the toughest mobs, why not have it that after a certain rank gap, only certain PPU spells will work?
So a 0/2 runner can only get a Heal from a PPU of 60/60 for example?
Or something like that.
So group sizes stick together, exp is more evenly earned and spread, as the groups are all generally the same rank, etc.
:D
Dade Murphey
05-01-04, 00:57
And then after that we'll make it so only players within certain lvl confines can hurt each other and then we'll make it so players can kill only mobs within certain lvls and then and then and then....
:rolleyes: :D
nd then after that we'll make it so only players within certain lvl confines can hurt each other and then we'll make it so players can kill only mobs within certain lvls and then and then and then....
That man's a fucking genius!!
YES!! :D :D
Keyol45743241
05-01-04, 02:58
Originally posted by Dade Murphey
Why not just have higher lvl spells override lower lvl spells, period....that way some dude is casing low lvl heal on you then you PPU friend could still cast high lvl heal on your...a higher lvl skill booster would override a low lvl skill booster reguardless of type etc. And the first result would be, apart from the even more overpowered PPUs, who then can't be even killed if you shitbuff them, PPUs who stand on the plaza and supportbuff consters... not much of a difference, don't you think?
Dade Murphey
05-01-04, 08:18
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
And the first result would be, apart from the even more overpowered PPUs, who then can't be even killed if you shitbuff them, PPUs who stand on the plaza and supportbuff consters... not much of a difference, don't you think?
well...first off here slick...my idea is similar but only slightly different from the idea presented by the thread starter...with the thread starters idea a PPU would be able to override the crap already on him with his self buffs...now this sort of idea is all well and good...but ONLY for PPU's...at the least with my idea it would work for everyone
It wouldn't overpower a PPU, I wasn't asking for a change to their power...it would allow PPUs to use the proper stuff on themselves and everyone else...with the devourer in game and things like the speed cannon or other similar pierce/force weapons there's plenty of ways to take out a PPU if you just put your head to it...especially with War Gas :D
either keep it how it is, or weaken ppus. let me give an example. A fight breaks out in mc5. Im on my apu and my ppu and I win... well, we kill the other ppus team, but he just wont die... I antishelter him but he can see me casting it and his shelters go right back up... poisoning and hl dont do jack to a good ppu... he only dies after I antibuff and my ppu newb shelters and heals him... If he hadnt, the guy never woulda died and would be paraing and dbing us while we tried to farm mc5... unless they come up with a new way to kill a ppu, it has to be left in.... if a ppu times well and is fast and move around quickly, its quite hard to newb buff him.
Dade Murphey
05-01-04, 15:34
that's really all they got going for them...aside from the parashocks but those are just annoyances more than anything...if you really wanna kill them that bad just get a tank with a war gas devourer to follow you around all the time...but it makes total sense that they're near invincible...other than that they're just annoyances
While I respect the opinions of the uber PPUs in this thread... as now having a 38/40 rank PPU myself, can people PLEASE start saying
"capped or near-capped PPUs are overpowered"
instead of saying
"PPUs are overpowered"
???
Thanks. Cause a PPU at my rank (Holy Def, Bless Shelt, Bless Heal) is far from being overpowered.
So when contemplating changes, bear that in mind.
Keyol45743241
05-01-04, 17:35
Strych, since everybody who ist taking part in PvP is now capped or near capped, that is the thing were the Balance has to excel. We're not talking low or midlevel or PvM. You don't need balance in PvM, just look at AC2 or whatever game without PvP..... but when players start dying because of completely overpowered other players, they'll get annoyed beyond belief - why? Because they pay the same 10$ or € or whatever.
So, no, I won't take low or midlevel chars into account when talking about balancing pvp, it just makes matters even more complicated and as you can see with the perfect example of the PPU, that it fails miserably.
Noob buffing is a valid tactic against PPU's, hell even the GM's have stated this. It's not like PPU's are without support in most situation's either mob-hunting or at OP wars. No one charactor should be, 'invulnerable' even a PPU. TL3 heal's and deflector's do add spice to a PPU's experience and if the player in question is repeatley falling to this tactic, they have to ask themselves why am i leaving myself open to it?
Well since I partake in PvP at 38/40, and by your recollection I should not (or that I do not count even though I am) could you please let me know at what level my experiences count towards balance issues?
:rolleyes:
This is the SAME thing that got hybrids nerfed and the SAME thing that you see going on now with PEs. People make blanket statements like "Hybrids are uber", "PPUs are uber" and they apply it to every runner in that class when ACTUALLY thats not the case- only the capped Hybrids were uber and only the capped PPUs are uber.
So if you think "everybody" that PvPs is capped or near capped, I think you are wrong. And regardless of the truth of your statement, the point is that balancing, if done, should ONLY BE DONE FOR CAPPED MONKS CAUSE NON-CAPPED MONKS ARE FAR FROM UBER.
Originally posted by Alan
Noob buffing is a valid tactic against PPU's, hell even the GM's have stated this.
I have only seen a forum mod say its a valid tactic. Personally it is a questionable tactic at best, a stopgap.
Some examples to show how messed up this is as a valid tactic (note examples do not reflect actual incidents). I had meant to give these examples before but the Mod in question locked the thread and said it was perfectly legal.
- A CM + CS want to kill a FA PPU. CM noob buffs the FA over and over and the CS person kills them. Valid tactic?
- A player wants to loot a load of belts at a levelling spot. He spams noobie buffs over and over until everyone dies and loots them. Valid tactic?
You see there is no payback for using the spell. It is purely an offensive tactic that high level players use but no penalty for using the tactic where it shouldn't be.
Overriding buffs (at least on the PPU) would stop both such incidents.
Originally posted by VetteroX
either keep it how it is, or weaken ppus. let me give an example. A fight breaks out in mc5. Im on my apu and my ppu and I win... well, we kill the other ppus team, but he just wont die...
And then what? He won't die.. can he kill you? No. He could probably keep you busy until his mates have GR back to the city, got thier backpacks, got poked, lost SI, wandered out to MC5 and zoned back in to get killed by yous again (as you had no problem killing them the first time with a PPU?). He certainly can't rez them while under fire.
But can't kill a PPU with a PPU/APU combo and not using Noobie buffs? I call BS on that one, I know for a fact you don't suck that bad at PvP.
Those examples dont change anything, because they rely on PLAYER INTENT rather than player action.
My example #1: a tank decides to heal himself, and casts the TL3 heal. A PPU runs by and gets the heal on accident. PPU dies shortly thereafter.
My example #2: a newb at the military base bunker runs around healing everyone trying to be helpful.
How can the computer tell my examples apart from yours? They cannot, because you are concerned with player intent rather than player action. Its not the heal that is bad (afterall, its a heal- thats why there is no payback), its the thoughts of the person casting it.
Only way to solve this is have higher TL spells override lower ones.
I didn't say it was one off the only ways off dropping a ppu, hell there's more than enough. But what i am saying IS it is a valid tactic, PPU's seldom operate without support anyway.
This is after all not a nice game, you should expect the worst AT ALL TIMES!! Noob buffing only works if a PPU has let his buff's go down. Yes sheilds only last 2 mins, but there steps a PPU can take to reduce his exposure to noob buffing and if u cannot be bothered to discover them, then more fool you.
Is Noob buffing lame? Yes. But so's ganking someone while they're hacking. Attacking someone while they're mob-hunting & all manner off other things that happen. This is a PvP game NOT everquest, please try to keep this in mind. At the end of day there are more pressing issues in the game than PPU's getting noob buffed. For me, i say there's a fairley good balance in the game atm PvP wise. Yes there are things that need tweaking, (i said tweaking NOT oh let's nerf this into oblivion or let's boost this to the extreme) but PPU's aside from the entire Para debate are fine.
Edit:-
Ok for your niggles Stych9, all i can say is them's the break's. Your examples also work in reference to combat, Runner X is blatting away at a Warbot Runner Y walks into the LoF and catches a Holy lightning in the chest while he's at 1/3 health and dies. Runner X lose's SL and faction because Runner Y was allied.
Unfortunatley these things happen, it is not the end of the world. Shit happen's deal with it. That example I gave can be turned slightley and used to attack a runner's SL and faction standing and is used by some people for that purpose.
Originally posted by Strych9
Those examples dont change anything, because they rely on PLAYER INTENT rather than player action.
Indeed and in both incidents you cited self buffing would solve it would it not?
Only way to solve this is have higher TL spells override lower ones.
We are both asking for the same thing. :)
Incidently from an APU view, what is Anti-Heal like? Does it disable holy heal?
Originally posted by Alan
Is Noob buffing lame? Yes. But so's ganking someone while they're hacking. Attacking someone while they're mob-hunting & all manner off other things that happen.
Except that in the examples you noted there are reprocussions for doing it against a neutral or friendly faction (except in a warzone). There is none for noob buffing.
Originally posted by Alan
Ok for your niggles Stych9, all i can say is them's the break's. Your examples also work in reference to combat, Runner X is blatting away at a Warbot Runner Y walks into the LoF and catches a Holy lightning in the chest while he's at 1/3 health and dies. Runner X lose's SL and faction because Runner Y was allied.
Unfortunatley these things happen, it is not the end of the world. Shit happen's deal with it. That example I gave can be turned slightley and used to attack a runner's SL and faction standing and is used by some people for that purpose. Why do you think anything you say above is in response to what I said?
my niggles???
I was only pointing out that you cannot indict the act of healing, just the intent of the healer. Since the game engine doesnt analyze intent, we must have it so higher TL buffs override lower TL buffs if we want to fix the noob buff issue.
So tell me why you had the need to tell me to "deal with it"????
Look how painley can i say this? Getting having a low lvl buff or Heal blocking a high lvl one. Wether by accident or intent, is an issue u should get over, instead off moaning about. Out off all the problems in the game this ranks about as highley as a Roach!
Originally posted by Alan
Look how painley can i say this? Getting having a low lvl buff or Heal blocking a high lvl one. Wether by accident or intent, is an issue u should get over, instead off moaning about. Out off all the problems in the game this ranks about as highley as a Roach! Use of the word "niggles" doesnt exactly add a lot of clarity to one's point of view. ;)
I hope you dont think that I personally am hung up about the low level buffs. Read this thread and you will see that I never "moan" about low level buffs- I only point out that because intent is what makes them suspect, rather than an actual in game action, that we cannot really punish people for healing. And that *if* there is to be a solution, it would have to be in the form of higher level buffs overriding lower TL ones.
You see, people can have opinions on stuff without moaning. I am not calling for nerfs or whining- just explaining that if this is a problem, there is only one real solution for it.
And in terms of the problems in this game, a LOT of people play Neocron for the PvP, and PvP balance is a HUGE issue in Neocron. Noob buffs has always been an important issue to PvPers. I am not sure if you are just out of touch with the community or what, but this isnt minor to a lot of people. This issue has had many discussions and polls, and it was important enough to prompt a dev to respond... not many issues warrant that level of attention.
Keyol45743241
06-01-04, 00:25
Balance needs to be done when all variables aren't variable anymore. That means capped.
You see, people can have opinions on stuff without moaning. I am not calling for nerfs or whining- just explaining that if this is a problem, there is only one real solution for it.We all see how annoying it is for a PPU to get shitbuffed and thus die.
But we all can see the need to shitbuff a PPU, since he has a fucking godmode. So we need this tactic (lame, indispensable, whatever you may name it) to combat PPUs since the balance is not given, yet.
Thus we won't nicely answer any requests to remove that possibility to fight PPUs. Nerf the PPU back in line and we can talk about that. But if you refuse to nerf the PPU and only want the higher spell override the lower level spell, you'll only receive laught - in your face.
And some kicking in the balls by a force of nature, called "reality"
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