Balancing: should we go more FPSish or more RPGish?

[Bob Monkhouse]

It seems to me that NC has an identity crisis. I bought the game because it was an RPG that promised diversity in the role I could play within the game. I was also attracted by the "FPS STYLE gameplay, since it offers a unique perspective on the game world.

Over the past few months many balancing issues have been raised and endlessly debated on these forums. Personally I read almost every "balancing" post with dismay, since it seems the majority of posters forget that NC is an RPG. Many people seem to want balancing to be in a similar vein to playing a FPS with the classes of NC almost representing weapons rather than characters. I hate this approach. It seems to me that the interface (IE FPS) is beginning to dominate the gameplay. I believe each class should be a vastly different experience to play and master. Some classes should be damn hard to play well, and if played outside their "role" should be almost impossible to keep alive. (As a reference, imagine a D&D wizard attempting close combat)

I would like to see NC move away from the type of combat that it currently has to one which has a much more tactical element to it.

Basically, I would sharpen the distinction between classes. Tanks would indeed become powerhouses, capable of absorbing huge amounts of damage whilst firing powerful cannons. Spies would become deadly snipers or assassins (with a powerful bonus for firing a shot immediately after destealthing), but would be paperthin in a conventional fight. To compensate, spies would be naturally fleet of foot, capable of outrunning pursuers. Monks would be remain powerful (since I believe it is part of the NC concept that Psi Monks are a dominant force in the futureo_O ) but would have severe limitations. Their mana pool would be reduced, as would their rate of fire/ PPus would basically have the way their spells work reversed, so that self cast buffs would be weak, but those cast on others would be strong. This would mean that all monks would have serious limitations and would need to be protected in order to utilise their powers. PEs would remain the footsoldier class, I believe that the majority of combat should really be between PEs on the battle field, and must confess to being a convert to the versitility of PEs.

Does anyone else think that the balancing that most people are after is leading us down a road where classes become almost homogeneous, separated by skins and animations, rather that fundemental ability differences?

I hope that I have explained properly. The ideas I have outlined are purely for illustration purposes. I know they are not a blueprint for a balanced fun game, just some ideas about how I personally view NC, as an RPG rather than a FPS.

[Dribble Joy]

The problem NC has as to whether it is a RPG or an FPS, is not so much the play style (FFXI is a 3rd person game, as are many rpgs and mmorpgs) but the method in which PvP is central to the game.
If the effects of PvP were to have a greater impact of faction relations and the world we inhabit, then rp might be seen more viable, while keeping the PvP still there.
Hopefully this will come in to an extent with BDOY.

[Bob Monkhouse]

Personally, I think the PvP vs RP arguement is misleading. I agree that ATM we need MORE motivation for PvP, but this is because personally I believe good RP needs good drama, and good drama needs conflict. PvP should provide a exciting way to play out that conflict. People who say NC lacks RP content miss the point IMO. I ignore the occassional childish comment or FPS phrase (Owning, sexing etc) and Hey Presto, RP can still be viable within the PvP environment. RP is what you make it, and I grew up in Pen n Paper RPGs where combat was a vital way to both make the game interesting AND to push stories forward.

[Dribble Joy]

Fair enough.

What I meant to say was that the balance between fps and rpg is fine as it is, but it needs to be implemented better.

[Benjie]

It's an RPG. Neocron is plain and simply and RPG. However it is diverse so you 'can' enjoy FPS style action if you want, but Neocron is an RPG, simple as that.

[Rieper]

bob, i thought you were dead o_O

[Dribble Joy]

The dead don't lie...

[Psyco Groupie]

they dont say anything, thats why they dont lie

[Dribble Joy]

I know that.... ffs...

Look I'm bored and tired, ignore me.

[Gestra]

I always though of neocron just as a massive multiplayer online game.



Does it really need a rpg or fps tag with it?

[MortuusLupus]

The MMO part isn't really the definition of a genre. It's more of a designation of a specific type of game in a pre-existing genre, ie mmoRPG or mmoFPS. You can have either one without the mmo part, but you really can't have an mmo on its own.

Well, you could, but then you'd just be ignoring another part of its classification. You wouldn't really lump Planetside and EverQuest into the same group, as they're two totally different games, despite both being massive, multiplayer, and online.

[Gestra]

In that case, I would say neocron is much more like a persistant world FPS.


How many people really play a role in the game?

[MortuusLupus]

7, I think. Give or take.

Actually, I made that up. I really don't know. But the game's got stats, and the combat's based on dice-rolls, so there's that bit of the RPGness

[amfest]

Bob Monkhouse
it would be great if the game was setup like that .. but as it is it isn't happening. a big problem with the tactical aespect is runspeed . . . people can get to run so damn fast so close combat happens so quickly. If max speeds were reduced and specific classes could only reach a specific run speed then I think your ideal Neocron could work . but alas it won't happen. If speed was reduced like that .. people would cry bloody murder cause they would feel like snails unless they were spys . . . and para from a ppu and fire from his teammates would take care of that. if tanks were the slowest they would for sure need major dmg output and could take a bashing without shields, also sheilds wouldn't help them much (be not as effective really) cause they would have some naturual resist to PSI energy so you'd need regular firepower to take out the heavy armored/ heavy firepower warriors .. Private eyes running in for close combat attack .. spys sniping . . . monks staying near the tanks who can help protect them and they can help protect the tanks while the tanks lay down major fire from the back .. while moving fwd and taking ground. It would be great to see . . . but most people just want to run in guns blazing from what I see with every class. And then theres those classes that break away like melee, drones, spy in close combat, dex based weapon tank and such . . .

I got it!! . . make a neocron mod for quake 1 and test it out there XD

[BombShell]

wut thay need is actual battle conflicts. like random npc battles attacking each other. like ts and bd or cm's attacking tg. just low rank npc's like 50/50 maybe 60/60 so we can kill them with a bet of ez and good lvling. maybe good for faction symp.

like when we take over a op npc's would spawn of ur faction just low rankers like wut i said on top and peeps could lvl and gains symp of them. and when u get the op u see a kwel npc battle well ur faction clears the enemy out :)

and to intise more pvp u mug peeps u kill from the rank so if thay hav rank /60 u get 6k from them. and if u killed a allie u lose money as a faction fine.

and also the op u hav taken over ur allied faction guards will also spill over the next zones so if u get 2 enemy ops together u hav a small faction war. but if u get allies to gether thay help each other out :)

and this will help for changing faction. if we add small time guards no at the hq but in random areas like opening all safe zones into pvp zones and these low guards will try and help and u can gain symp but thay must be in open so we can help them out or soemthing because i know next wont hold a op. for peeps to gain symp so maybe random faction bases in the wasteland.

[amfest]

Still want a quake 1 neocron mod :D

[ServeX]

FPSish definitely, why go RPGish? lol. The FPS factor is what makes Neocron what it is. That's what seperates it from all the other MMORPGs.


Personally I think that the best way to make it more FPS like is by eliminating PPUs as a whole, removing stuns from the game, and instead creating more of a combat medic class. Additionally I think resists should be taken out completely. It should be like Planetside in the FPS aspect. Additionally, I think there should be an ability to lie prone. I think this would greatly benefit spies. But as we all know, none of these things will ever occur.

[2ply]

Originally posted by ServeX
FPSish definitely, why go RPGish? lol. The FPS factor is what makes Neocron what it is. That's what seperates it from all the other MMORPGs.


Personally I think that the best way to make it more FPS like is by eliminating PPUs as a whole, removing stuns from the game, and instead creating more of a combat medic class. Additionally I think resists should be taken out completely. It should be like Planetside in the FPS aspect. Additionally, I think there should be an ability to lie prone. I think this would greatly benefit spies. But as we all know, none of these things will ever occur.

I definately agree with the resists. As it is now, it's not really about your skills, it's all about your resist setup.

Take resists out, and you got yourself a game based pretty much on pure skill. Which should be the way FPS'es should be.

[Bob Monkhouse]

Thanks ServeX, you have illustrated my point. You are clearly in the "make it more FPSish" camp. My problem with this is that the market has a ton of very good pure FPS games, many with different "classes" which provide for the shooter fans, and most are free. I don't want to pay money every month to play a dumbed down NC. IMO the FPS interface is confusing too many people into thinking thats what NC should be, and is a big reason why many players dont stay long. I love the FPS style of NC, but I believe that is the only thing we should take from shooter games: the perspective. All the nuts and bolts behind the pretty interface should be made MORE RPGish, so that those who want to play something which needs a bit of thought and effort (ie have tactical "skills" as well as point shoot "skills") will be catered for.

There are far too many arguements on these boards about balancing classes for 1v1 "duels". My thoughts on "duellists" are clear (I dont like 'em :) ), I believe that trying to find 1v1 combat balance for all the classes is stupid and leads us down the "why pay for this, BF1942 and RTCW do it better for free, road.

MORE distiction between classes and less focus on 1v1 balancing gets my vote.

[Dade Murphey]

Originally posted by ServeX
FPSish definitely, why go RPGish? lol. The FPS factor is what makes Neocron what it is. That's what seperates it from all the other MMORPGs.


Personally I think that the best way to make it more FPS like is by eliminating PPUs as a whole, removing stuns from the game, and instead creating more of a combat medic class. Additionally I think resists should be taken out completely. It should be like Planetside in the FPS aspect. Additionally, I think there should be an ability to lie prone. I think this would greatly benefit spies. But as we all know, none of these things will ever occur.

My god man...if they listened to you...over all that is...this game would bite ass...it would be Planetside...and lord knows that game is the worst thing on the market next to bad crack...seriously dude...there's a reason this game is an MMORPG and not an MMOFPS (like planetside)...why not just have a mix of RPG and PvP...the one thing a lot of people forget is the whole of acting the part and not just being a jack ass...it's one thing to adopt a role and play it out...such as being TG and being fanactical about your cause and doing what you can to spread TG's power...it's another thing all together to run rampant and GR camp in lvling areas and kill anything that breathes...

You know...like you could act the role of Che Guevera as a TG...

EDIT: after re-reading your post I think before I misunderstood a bit...though my over all point still stands...it doesn't need to go more one way or the other...resists are done in a stupid fashion right now...but I have no real idea right now...I'm going to bed