View Full Version : can we get a clear definition of what GM's consider exploiting
More and more I See people getting warnings for things that seem normal to me. To keep myself in the clear, I would like to know what the guideline is that you, the GM uses to warn/ban people.
Of course the obvious things like the whole MC5 thing and the LE/PSI exploit are not what I'm talking about.
As we can't talk about exploits or possible exploits here directly its really hard detailing what I'm talking about specifically. Rather than doing so, I would like to know what the common sense approach you, the GM expects the common player to have. It being that we are all diffrent people with diffrent opinions, what you may consider an exploit, someone else may not. While there are some that take advantage of the game for their personal gain, another may see what you see as an exploit as just another way of getting quick xp.
The whole NCPD thing seemed perfectly normal to me since i would get owned in there once in a while. Yet, you GM's cried exploit and went as far as to block the whole thing off. Point being, since there is no discussion about exploits on the forum, there has to be something that makes the common bonehead know that he is risking getting banned. Not everyone has the common sense you expect out of the average person.
Stupid replies, flames, ignorant comments or your criticism need not apply. I'm looking for a mod or GM reply.
Thanks!
Nash_Brigham
02-01-04, 06:39
I think the keyword is common sense. If you shouldn't be able to do it to begin with, then don't continue doing it, as it is most likely going to get you a warning.
I dont think that always applies. For example copbot rifles were part of a GM event and that is the the only reason players got them yet 2 threads have been closed about them.
nash you totally missed my point.
Point being, there are certain things in this game that you may see as obvious and others don't. Like I said before, it's hard to go into detail because you are not even allowed to discuss possible exploits/cheats.
I'm looking at what guideline the GM uses to exercise his decision making process on whether something brought to his attention is illegal or not. So guess what, since you have no clue what that is, i think its best we let a mod or gm answer.
k?thx
:)
when ur having fun its consider a exlpoit.
most exploits r consider of taking advantage of bugs
but then some people would argue its not a bug its a feature.
While it would be nice of KK to publish a list saying "if you do xyz we will ban you", I think some of this really does come down to common sense. I mean if you find that sexing someone 3 times then doing the fuck-off emote crashes everyone on the screen, it would be pretty safe to say it's an exploit.
Originally posted by Keiron
While it would be nice of KK to publish a list saying "if you do xyz we will ban you", I think some of this really does come down to common sense. I mean if you find that sexing someone 3 times then doing the fuck-off emote crashes everyone on the screen, it would be pretty safe to say it's an exploit.
well it depends on the gm. most gms would give warning on that offence others just dont give a damn. and also mostly on how dumb do u think thay r u knowing its a exlpoit like duping.
lol... people use that term all the time but I actually laghed out loud hard in rl when I read bombshelss first post. Hit the nail on the head, anything thats seems too fun or is making life in nc a bit easier is an exploit...
Nash_Brigham
02-01-04, 08:15
Originally posted by WebShock
nash you totally missed my point.
Point being, there are certain things in this game that you may see as obvious and others don't. Like I said before, it's hard to go into detail because you are not even allowed to discuss possible exploits/cheats.
I'm looking at what guideline the GM uses to exercise his decision making process on whether something brought to his attention is illegal or not. So guess what, since you have no clue what that is, i think its best we let a mod or gm answer.
k?thx
:) The definition of exploit is anything that gives an unfair advantage by abusing a system that shouldn't give you said advantage. For instance, if you find jumping off a certain level of the city allows you the ability to fly in the game, and you continue using that bug, then that is exploiting. If you find that stacking certain apps together gives you a totally unusual effect that is not attributed to the apps at all, and continue to use that bug, then that is considered an exploit. If you find that shooting at a specific point on Easter Sunday, under a full moon let's you insta kill ppl, then that is an exploit. If you find standing under a certain pipe, or you find a way to stand int he wall and continue to use that exploit to avoid being hit by certain attacks, then that is considered an exploit.
Yes, ppl willa rgue day in and day out how such things would be features of the game, but the truth of the matter is, if it isn't suppose to happen to begin with, then it is most likely a bug, and abusing that bug is considered an exploit.
Blind Paul
02-01-04, 12:30
Hello,
The best term defining eyploiting in me experience is
"Playing the gamesystem not the game",
which i.e. incorporates all kinds of exploiting, which are possible to think of.
Most noticable about players is the fact that almost all of them know, they do exploit, but few of them would give insight to it. This even leads to players, which flame moderators / game developer for correcting bugs. :wtf:
As a Moderator / Gamemaster ( to another MMORPG ) I got accustomed to debates, which mostly evolve along the line of " I can / I'm able to do it, so it can't be wrong". This is the poorest excuse, but most people fail to recognize. :wtf:
I don't know why, probably it's human nature to try to be superior by _any_ means, but I wonder, why people can't abstain from it even for the short periods of game time.
me 2 cent,
yours friendly,
Blind Paul :cool:
Originally posted by WebShock
More and more I See people getting warnings for things that seem normal to me. To keep myself in the clear, I would like to know what the guideline is that you, the GM uses to warn/ban people.
Of course the obvious things like the whole MC5 thing and the LE/PSI exploit are not what I'm talking about.
As we can't talk about exploits or possible exploits here directly its really hard detailing what I'm talking about specifically. Rather than doing so, I would like to know what the common sense approach you, the GM expects the common player to have. It being that we are all diffrent people with diffrent opinions, what you may consider an exploit, someone else may not. While there are some that take advantage of the game for their personal gain, another may see what you see as an exploit as just another way of getting quick xp.
The whole NCPD thing seemed perfectly normal to me since i would get owned in there once in a while. Yet, you GM's cried exploit and went as far as to block the whole thing off. Point being, since there is no discussion about exploits on the forum, there has to be something that makes the common bonehead know that he is risking getting banned. Not everyone has the common sense you expect out of the average person.
Stupid replies, flames, ignorant comments or your criticism need not apply. I'm looking for a mod or GM reply.
Thanks!
We, at Reakktor, decided to block of NCPD, not GM's. The GM's only do/respond/enforce what we (Reakktor), set as policy. If GM's become out of hand, abusive, do not do as they are told, they are removed.
Exploiting is gaining an unfair advantage over others by taking advantage of bugs, flawed mechanics, dupes, sexing, etc etc.
Its pretty obvious when your doing something 'naughty' so dont do it and you wont get spanked.
shodanjr_gr
02-01-04, 13:06
Originally posted by Oath
Exploiting is gaining an unfair advantage over others by taking advantage of bugs, flawed mechanics, dupes, sexing, etc etc.
Its pretty obvious when your doing something 'naughty' so dont do it and you wont get spanked.
Thats wrong imho, in that way TL3 heal on PPU is an exploit, because it takes advantage of flawed game mechanics that dont allow the PPU to overwrite previous buffs, thus giving the caster an advantage over the PPU.
Originally posted by Oath
Exploiting is gaining an unfair advantage over others by taking advantage of bugs, flawed mechanics, dupes, sexing , etc etc.
Its pretty obvious when your doing something 'naughty' so dont do it and you wont get spanked.
'sexing' is an exploit? o_O
Would that not be nice ... Why not ask the GM's to list all known exploits so we can 'Avoid' them ... I am sure your intentions were hounerable but they can't and wont help give some players with less than good intentions some extra tips
[SP]Ostrich
02-01-04, 13:14
Originally posted by Ascention
'sexing' is an exploit? o_O
oath refers everything to sex....
Originally posted by [SP]Ostrich
oath refers everything to sex....
Everything is sex....... in one way or another.
Dont take everything i say seriously.....
[SP]Ostrich
02-01-04, 13:30
Originally posted by Oath
Everything is sex....... in one way or another.
Dont take everything i say seriously.....
ever since you tried to have a saussage bash with me on irc, i haven't taken anything seriously.8|
Originally posted by Oath
Everything is sex....... in one way or another.
Dont take everything i say seriously.....
LOL... Sorry, Ive just woke up * NEEEEEEEDDD COFFEE *
Originally posted by [SP]Ostrich
ever since you tried to have a saussage bash with me on irc, i haven't taken anything seriously.8|
.............
.............
.............
.............
Dude.....
Just......
Dude.....
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Thats wrong imho, in that way TL3 heal on PPU is an exploit, because it takes advantage of flawed game mechanics that dont allow the PPU to overwrite previous buffs, thus giving the caster an advantage over the PPU.
But you can state that that is "ok", if you are working on the same principal as Rezz Killing. You can do foreign heals, you can cast foreign heals on enemies thus it isn't an exploit to cast foreign heals SPECIFICALLY on one certain class. Basically... I will stop using TL3 heal on PPUs when parashock is removed from PvP. Unless the PPU is being an ass just standing in Pepper Park saying how uber he is because we can't kill him, and how we are noobs.
what shodan_jr points out, is exactly what I am referring to.
shodanjr_gr
02-01-04, 14:31
Originally posted by WebShock
what shodan_jr points out, is exactly what I am referring to.
its shodanjr_gr for you mister!!!
Ok, now can someone say wether using a copot rifle is an exploit or not? :p
exploits can not always be determined by common sense.
for example, the use of cover in MC5 in combination with barrels and area effect spells/weapons was EVENTUALLY considered an exploit. the cover was removed entirely to prevent this "exploit", however barrelling, area effect and use of cover are not considered exploits anywhere else in the game.
another one is the ability to place turrets in OP UGs. this was initially a grey area, and turret placement in UGs was allowed, it was then arbitrarily (although rightly) considered an exploit. after a time it was changed back to being OK again.
none of the above could be determined by a players common sense, however they could get you in trouble if you did them. and none of the above ever appeared in any official documentation, just forum posts by mods/gms, which you would have missed by either blinking, or not using these forums very often (which, by the way, is still true of a great many players).
the thread starter is quite right to ask this question.
Cryotchekk
02-01-04, 14:50
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - don't post exploits ]
*cough* please edit that post *cough*
Zu (Pluto)
02-01-04, 14:54
While I agree with the original poster that there are "grey areas" where a different person will draw a different conclusion of whether it is exploit or not, I feel in many cases it /is/ common sense. For the grey areas though, the best we can do is question but accept a GM's ruling on it at the time of the incident. I have found that in general GMs are nice people who listen to reason, but I figure that sometimes they are a little heavy-handed because certain people (names not mentioned) abuse their good will. This gets these nice human volunteers annoyed, which means in future they give less chances before temp kicking you into next week.
For example, when a GM asks you nicely to stop doing something, the sensible thing is to stop even if you disagree with their ruling. IMHO the correct procedure if you disagree is to discuss and get confirmation from other GMs or the community first, rather then stubborning argue with the GM on the spot and continuing doing the alleged exploit anyway. I think a lot of GMs must have become very frustrated over the NCPD business because they will tell a person to stop, and that idiot will just continue as soon as the GMs back is turned. Whatever our own personal opinions, the GMs are there to enforce rules not to screw you over. If you disagree with a rule, you should seek to get it changed not just slap the GM in the face and break them. GMs get rules wrong sometimes - help correct misunderstandings, not force a confrontation that doesn't help anyone at all! It is disruptive to find ways to "prove GMs wrong" or "justify my actions".
Back to the common sense issue, the latest little craze seems to be over LEs. Now I'm going to be vague here since I don't want to break forum rules, but it seems clear to me the /intention/ of the little thing is to allow people to stay out of PvP. Finding ways to kill LE'ed people or ways to use an LE in PvP/Op Wars is clearly contrary to the purpose of the LE. Therefore, to use an LE to facilitate a PvP conflict or to delibrately kill a LE'ed runner is an exploit.
It is very difficult to create rules that work 100% the way we intend things to work. Just look at the complicated mess that is our legal systems as an example! The rules (game mechanics) are made to achieve certain objectives, which I will call the spirit of the rules. If the implementation of the rules allow you to do something that goes against the spirit of the rules, and you take advantage of that flawed implementation, they you are exploiting - it is not a feature.
I've dragged on a bit too much again - sorry. But in conclusion:
- Go with the spirit of the rules, not its implementation
- Work with the GMs/KK/Community to get rules you don't like changed, not break them repeatedly.
- If in doubt it probably should be discussed, not ignored (if you have a doubt, then it's at best a grey area!)
My 2 cents. Take it or leave it :)
Zu
[Edit: Just to add I think that this is a very valid thread]
shodanjr_gr
02-01-04, 14:56
Originally posted by Cryotchekk
[ edited ]
Erm...i dont think you should actually be posting these, since they ARE exploits.
Blind Paul
02-01-04, 15:11
This is exactly the point shodan,
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Erm...i dont think you should actually be posting these, since they ARE exploits.
There is no point in security by obscurity ! :wtf:
The way it should work is, to make damn clear that these are things which are an exploit and make it well known, so that anyone using such things, will get shunned / banned using them.
If you try to obscure what action's are exploits, some people eventually _will_ find out AND some fraction of them _will_ use them and some fraction of those latter one's _won't_ be discovered.
Of cause, even more preferrable then making da** clear, what action's are an exploit, is to correct the ecploits code wise...
yours friendly,
blind Paul :cool:
PS: Very good Posting Zu (Pluto) !
Originally posted by Blind Paul
This is exactly the point shodan,
There is no point in security by obscurity ! :wtf:
The way it should work is, to make damn clear that these are things which are an exploit and make it well known, so that anyone using such things, will get shunned / banned using them.
If you try to obscure what action's are exploits, some people eventually _will_ find out AND some fraction of them _will_ use them and some fraction of those latter one's _won't_ be discovered.
Of cause, even more preferrable then making da** clear, what action's are an exploit, is to correct the ecploits code wise...
yours friendly,
blind Paul :cool:
PS: Very good Posting Zu (Pluto) !
er...
Forum Bans
Severe or repeated breaches of the forum rules may result in a forum ban. The first ban will be for 72 hours after which the user will be re-admited on a parole basis. Further breaches of the rules will result in a 7-day ban. Any third ban will be permanent. Examples of serious breaches are racist or homophobic remarks, posting evidence of hacks or exploits, posting messages for banned users or creating new accounts to evade a ban, and creating threads to continue arguments from closed threads.yeah......
Cryotchekk has been banned for 7 days for that post (in addition to a previously edited post about exploiting). Fair warning.
N
MayhemMike
02-01-04, 15:46
everythings an exploit in neocron.. wait.. letting everyone know is going to get meh banned from the forums :mad: :mad: 8|
Blind Paul
02-01-04, 15:56
Originally posted by Oath
er...
<< quoting Forum rules >>
yeah......
Oath, I know about these and I'll adhere to these, as I stated with the creation of this Forum account, BUT I may add, that I might have a different opinion on that topic.
Otherwise I have to admit as long as it's forbidden by the rules, you should refrain from posting them here. :rolleyes:
yours friendly
Blind Paul :cool:
If you are aware of an exploit then the only place you need to announce it is to exploits@neocron.com. If any more exploits are posted on this thread it will be closed.
N
Originally posted by s0apy
exploits can not always be determined by common sense.
for example, the use of cover in MC5 in combination with barrels and area effect spells/weapons was EVENTUALLY considered an exploit. the cover was removed entirely to prevent this "exploit", however barrelling, area effect and use of cover are not considered exploits anywhere else in the game.
another one is the ability to place turrets in OP UGs. this was initially a grey area, and turret placement in UGs was allowed, it was then arbitrarily (although rightly) considered an exploit. after a time it was changed back to being OK again.
none of the above could be determined by a players common sense, however they could get you in trouble if you did them. and none of the above ever appeared in any official documentation, just forum posts by mods/gms, which you would have missed by either blinking, or not using these forums very often (which, by the way, is still true of a great many players).
the thread starter is quite right to ask this question.
MC5 was identified as an exploit, and a mistake by KK and so it was rectified...The OP / turret thing was not an exploit, but a bug. When ops chaned ownership, the Turrets did not ... hence removal from all undergrounds until such time as this was addressed - no exploit .... just something called UAT .... 95% of times (Stats calculated at International stats consolidation consortium) peopl are aware that they are exploiting ... Like A wall in place and then some twat tries to find a way through ... Wall there to stop that .... That kind of thing ... Common sense
Cruzbroker
02-01-04, 17:52
I wouldn't consider "noob buffing" as an exploit, not as long they fix it, because you can HELP others with the feature.
Arguing with a GM that something is a feature instead of exploit is plain stupid: Some features are not meant to be there, and GMs know it. If you argue something like this with another player: Let the GM decide.
Originally posted by [SP]Ostrich
oath refers everything to sex....
wtf sex
my guess is this thread was created for some clarification on a thread last week with a screenshot of a player using a copbot rifle saying it was an exploit ....the thread got deleted and any threads asking if it was indeed an exploit or not were closed
The problem is that yes people know about the major exploits, however its the 'lesser' exploits (features?) that need clarification. I say this because the game mechanics allow the monk to shoot over or around walls. However when it's done to gain items (example mc5 where the guards can still come round the wall) its considered exploiting. Then again people moan about people standing on Boxes etc a flaw in the game since the dawn of time. Also leveling off NPC's an exploit? NCPD was simply using cover again as they could still shoot you, and they wall hacked lame.
everything not beeing done as RM planned is is an exploit :)
end of transmission.
RM owns you.
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