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View Full Version : [Brainport] Balancing Neocron and changes to the way things work



Flyl
23-12-03, 20:02
Ok so reading through the forums I've come to the conclusion that bar a few people, the majority wouldn't know balanced if it came upto them and hit them in the face. Most people only want changes because it will benefit their charactor class and make them better. People have come to realise that enough of them whine about something Reakktor will change it to suit them, however in the end this just makes them whine more (ala Ressurection nerf anybody?)

Below are my suggestions to help balance the game. These are just suggestions. Anybody who is going to flame or reply with one word answers need not bother, if you're going to reply I'm going to require you to give constructive critism for or against any particular argument, explaining your reasoning. Whining about nerfs or bugs or how it affects the class you play is the reason that the game is as unbalanced as it is at the moment.

If you do like the thread, rate it 5 stars when you post so perhaps somebody from Reakktor can take some of them into consideration.

I thank you in advance for your co-operation.

PSI Monks

• Shelter's shouldn't affect damage that poisen does, passive monks already have multiple rare and shop bought spells at their disposal for combatting against poisen damage. source here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85379)

• Make the cancelling effect that PPU and APU have on each other lower, allowing more powerful hybrids and removing the "support charactor" ethos that surrounds monks.

• Increase the requirements (in terms of MST/PPU/APU) on the higher level spells, this affects hybrids more than anything else, by reducing the size of their psi pool, therefore reducing their rank, and ability to sustain offensive fire for long periods of time.

• Adjust the maximum rate of fire on offensive spells to 95 / minute from 105 / minute instead of adjusting the damage spells do. This will keep the damage an APU does per hit the same, but reduce the amount of times they can fire in a minute.

• Completly remove parashock spells- see the section 'Freezers' below.

• Increase the quality of shop bought spells but remove the possibility of them being slotted. This will effect hybrids/ppu monks mainly. As it is shop bought spells are 'average' quality and possibly slotted. Some of these spells are none-researchable items. If they're sold at higher quality then it will counteract the need for them to be constructed. Alternativly they could be changed from none-researchable to researchable items to allow them to be constructed.

• Add a rare poisen beam spell. (Holy Plague?)

Tanks

Tanks are one of the most powerful offensive classes in the game. While lacking the ability to do much more than fight, they have the potential to move faster, take more damage, and do more damage than any other class, this needs to be focused on when people complain they got beaten by a tank. In a solo fight - a duel, 1v1 with a tank, between two people with the same sort of skills, there should be no competition or indescision in the matter, the tanks greater consitution and cannon weapons should win.

• Increase the damage on the Malediction, Doombeamer and Moonstriker. These are the highest TL weapons in the game but do less damage in any particular time frame as lower TL weapons. The moonstriker in particular should do enough damage to compensate for its inaccuracy. This goes for all rocket launchers in particular.

• Leave the Devourer's damage is at the moment. I've heard a lot of people (PPU's and PE's in general) complaining about the damage that a Devourer can do, saying it needs nerfing. The damage on the Devourer is fine if you change your resists to compensate for the poisen damage it does.

• Increase the resists given by the high level Duranium / Tank PA in terms of peirce and energy resist.

Private Eyes

Rifles are commonly known as the most underpowered weapon in their game, taking this into considering with the drop in speed it gives you while they're active. Most people prefer to go with pistols for PvP because of their high rate of fire, lack of need to specialise, and the speed of movement while they're active.

• Increase the damage of rifles to 214% maximum damage.

• Increase the weapons lore requirement of rifles to 1.6x TL of the item for optimum aiming.

• Leave damage of pistols at 178% maximum damage.
Increase the damage of Ray of Last Hope, Slasher, and Executioner slightly.

• Change the weapons lore requirement of pistols to be equal to the TL of the weapon. IE: Ray of Last Hope optimum weapon lore would be 108.

Spies

The spies are the intellectual and dexterous class of the game, but without the ability to take the damage of a private eye. This should really be focused on during balancing. In close range combat a spy should only have two options, death, or stealthing and running away.

• Increase the TC requirement of the Obliterator to 120 TC, 95 INT, 100 DEX.

• Leave stealth time of obliterator at 90 seconds. There have been posts recently complaining about the amount of time obliterator stays active for, anybody having this much TC deserves / needs 90 seconds of stealth. source here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84663&highlight=obliterator)

• Other stealth related functions, see stealth section.

----

Loms

Lom pills were originally added as a temporary solution while Reakktor played with the balance of weapons early on in retail, rather than releasing all stats every patch. Now that this has settled down, there should be one final skill release and then loms should be wiped, removed from the shops, and made drop only.

• Increase SI per lom to 80%.

• Increase the amount of experiance lost. At the moment too many people powerlevel with one kind of weapon and then use loms to change to another skill.

• Remove them from the shops

• Make loms mob drop only from low level mobs (like beggars, and lazars for example)

• Make loms none researchable, none clonable items

Synaptic Impairment

Impairment is one of the most annoying aspects of the in game material, I disagree with removing it completly, but think that things need to be tweeked.

• Change synaptic impairment timing to 5 minutes for 100% impairment

• Give 50% synaptic impairment per death

• Give 80% synaptic impairment per lom pill taken

Stealth

• Give stealth its own graphic so it doesn't look like a hack tool.

• Allow stealth to be turned on / off without drugs. While other items are disabled while stealthed, leave the stealth tool active and make using it again deactivate the stealth function.

• Make stealth require recharging. IE: You cannot restealth immediatly after coming out of stealth, similar to impairment but only affects stealth.

Freezers

This is a large ongoing argument thats been in progress since the middle of beta when freezers were first added. Clientel started the complaints, and many others have followed the steps. Basically freezers need removing from the game, completly. They're unnessesary.

• Remove Thunderstorm rifle from the game and replace it with a rare Gatlin Rifle (see rare pool section)

• Remove all Parashock spells from the game. Parashock is an offensive spell used by a PPU. If PPU's are to retain their defensive abilities they should only be capable of support functions to other runners. Parashock isn't supporting, its attacking.

• Give the fallen angels a new toy thats distributed at their home base in the place of freezers.

Soullight and Quickbelts, Item Dropping, etc

At the moment, -17> Soullight means you'll drop 6 items in a "quick belt" randomly chosen from your inventory. It means that at -16 soullight you'll still drop 6 items in a quick belt in your inventory even though copbots don't shoot you. Anything above this means you'll drop one item, and have a safe slot. Now here are my suggestions. This will just give those none pk'ers or tradeskillers a reason to have more soullight.

• At -17 soullight and below. You'll drop one item straight to the ground without a quickbelt upon dieing.

• At -10, to -16 soullight you'll drop 3 items in a quickbelt upon dieing.

• At -1, to -10 soullight you'll drop an item in your quickbelt upon dieing, and have a safe slot in your belt.

• Above 0 soullight, you'll drop one item *from your belt* (Not your inventory) into a belt with a hack rating similar to an op, upon dieing.

• Above 20 soullight, you won't drop a belt.

• If you have -25 faction sympathy in any particular faction REGARDLESS of if you're in a clan, the guards and npcs of that faction will kill you on sight.

• If you get to -25 faction sympathy in your own faction REGARDLESS of if you're in a clan, you will (if applicable) be removed from the clan and the faction.

Tradeskill Experiance

Read here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85357) - My thoughts on the issue exactly. Tradeskilling should give approximatly 1000x the TL of the item in experiance for each succesful build. This means for example, researching would be the fastest method of capping intelligence, as for a TL 80 item you'd get 80000 xp per go. Bear in mind with the lomming changes suggested that this would prevent people powerleveling on tradeskills and lomming, this wouldn't be unbalanced. Meanwhile construction would have the same 80000 experiance, spread across intelligence, dexterity, and strength.

Rare pool

Remove:
Paw of Tiger,
Electric Tempest,
Thunderbolt,
Thunderstorm,
Holy Paralasys,

Add:
Rare gatlin rifle,
Rare gatlin pistol,
Rare gatlin cannon, (even though theres already the tangent speedgun)
Rare poisen beam, (holy plague?)
Rare nail gun,
Rare fusion drone,
Rare observer drone, (for fun :) All seeing eye?)
Hack glove.

Damage Boost

Damage boost. Boosting to give more damage, it's a passive skill that everybody expects from a PPU monk, but what does the monk get out of it? Well if they're unteamed, nothing. If they're teamed, they'll get a bit of XP. Now my idea for damage boost, is that the caster of damage boost will get experiance based on the additional damage caused by damage boost, this will allow a PPU to get experiance if they're unteamed, and get more experiance if they are teamed, thus solving the everlasting problem to how to level a passive monk's intelligence. Of course, a private eye class runner can also use damage boost, which would allow them to level their PSI and INT skills quicker, which wouldn't really make a difference considering that INT is normally capped by the time they can use damage boost.

Other things I support

Runner owned shops (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85521)
Multiple users of one apartment (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85534)
Making Neocron into a true city (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76294)
Turret CST times at Ops (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85351)
Removing Freezers (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85317)
Underground Travel (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84707)

Sealdude
23-12-03, 20:23
Wee my post made it in :o I dont really think there should be a rare nailgun, kinda pointless. Other than that A+++ Thread! 5 stars!

Possessed
23-12-03, 20:26
Excellent apart for a few things...




Increase the damage of Ray of Last Hope, Slasher, and Executioner slightly

RoLH and slasher are fine atm, and Executioner needs a... massive damage boost. Also, PEs atm do not have to sacrifice sufficient defense to get the huge offensive boost that the RoLH supplies, as posted in another thread this could easily be solved by removing the dex bonus from PE PA (and to balance this the negatives)


Increase SI per lom to 80%.
Too much, we play this game to enjoy ourselves not to wait around for si... 20% would be better (if it must remain)



Increase the amount of experiance lost. At the moment too many people powerlevel with one kind of weapon and then use loms to change to another skill
The xp lost should be increased to stop what you described, as completely reskilling should have its affects and force the person lomming to make a serious choice, though it should not be so heavy that someone who just wants to tweak a few points is penalized greatly.


• Above 20 soullight, you won't drop a belt

No, there is already too little fear of dieing in this game, if this is implemented then people will stop even faintly caring, what does a quick poke and a few minutes of si do? Nothing.... Part of what made this game so much fun in beta and early retail was the adrenaline rush when you saw a well known pker or a member of an enemy clan appear on your local list, with this change, (and how the game currently is) there is almost no fear at all.


Add:
Rare gatlin rifle,
Rare gatlin pistol,
Rare gatlin cannon, (even though theres already the tangent speedgun)
Rare poisen beam, (holy plague?)
Rare nail gun,
Rare fusion drone,
Rare observer drone, (for fun All seeing eye?)
Hack glove.
Too much added, the rare pool is already FAR too large, additions like this wouild be nice, but atm the only way I can see this to be possible is if the runs like that of the Terminator (when it comes...) are the easiest way, maybe having all of the <tl95 or so (or <tl90) rares having runs like this, or just 2 weps from each type (i.e. the Ravager and the Doom Beamer are run rares, as are the Terminator and the Ray of God for example)

Apart from that excellent... 5 stars

Jest
23-12-03, 20:45
Good and well thought out post, even if I don't agree with everything.

Psi Monks - Your first suggestion about cancelling the effect APU and PPU have on each other made me nervous at first, but it might be balanced out with the other suggestions you made. Personally I think you should add to that list "Kami APU chip now takes away PPU," then I'd wholly agree with every suggestion you made.


Tanks - Without going on the rabbit trail I don't agree with the statem "In a solo fight - a duel, 1v1 with a tank, between two people with the same sort of skills, there should be no competition or indescision in the matter, the tanks greater consitution and cannon weapons should win", but even so I think the three suggestions you made regarding tanks are good. I'd like Tanks to get a large increase in AoE weapons.

Private Eyes - Not sure why you think pistols are better than rifles. Pistols are the current fad, just as rifles were a few months ago. The problem is that people are sheep and they don't test out the weapons for themselves. I use pistols because I prefer the style of them. If I wanted to maximize my PvP ability I would LoM my PE to use a Ray of God.

Slasher and Executioner could definitely use a boost but I think RoLH is fine as it is. Also personally I think your idea about weapon lore is decent, but I definitely dont think low tech weapons should require equal level of weapon lore. Maybe half.

LoMs? Hell no. Leave em as they are. I hate the SI time on them as it is. Thugh about the 80%, to be honest I don't know how long 80% would currently take so I cant really judge whether or not this would be good or bad since you also suggested a lessening of SI time.

Freezers - Hell yes to the idea.

SoulLight - I like them all, but with on exception. Last week I killed a nuetral who was attacking my mate and I went from 65 soul light to -14. Imo thats bull crap. I wouldnt want to suddenly lose 3 items based on one incident. SL drops should have a standard negative drop for every kill. Ie -15 for an ally, -10 for a nuetral. None of this blanket drop to -14 crap.

Rares and DB - Sounds good to me.


Also as for the other things you support I think those are good ideas too. Though one quick thing in that player owned vendor idea MJS posted in it and said its gonna happen in BDoY, so no worries there.
:p

Shadow Dancer
23-12-03, 20:47
Originally posted by Flyl




• Increase the damage of rifles to 214% maximum damage.




No, pes already have wayyy high defense and can stealth. And rifle offense is good enough the way it is now.



Originally posted by Flyl



• Increase SI per lom to 80%.

• Increase the amount of experiance lost. At the moment too many people powerlevel with one kind of weapon and then use loms to change to another skill.

• Remove them from the shops

• Make loms mob drop only from low level mobs (like beggars, and lazars for example)

• Make loms none researchable, none clonable items
]

No way. I don't see anyting wrong with doing tweaks or changes to your char then gaining back the XP. I disagree with all these "proposals".




Originally posted by Flyl

• Give stealth its own graphic so it doesn't look like a hack tool.

• Allow stealth to be turned on / off without drugs. While other items are disabled while stealthed, leave the stealth tool active and make using it again deactivate the stealth function.

• Make stealth require recharging. IE: You cannot restealth immediatly after coming out of stealth, similar to impairment but only affects stealth.



Great. I agree completely.



As for parashock, I think it should be made PvM only.

Psychoninja
23-12-03, 20:51
I'd have to agree with the removal of parashock spells, and reducing the rof on APU spells slightly. I would only want to see canceling effect lowered only if the reqs for certain spells were upped. I remember playing FFXI and the red mage was limited to only a few spells instead of the whole lineup the pures had, and also had gimped mana. They weren't insanely over powered but could manage on their own. I really can't say much on the current state of hybrids in NC since I haven't really seen many in action long enough to determine anything for myself, but they should definately stay in.

I'd love to see a rare poison beam, but there will be those who complain because they don't want to spec into poison. Some people just don't like the fact that their resist can't counter every type of damage by 100%. There will always be a weakness.

I don't really see anything wrong with the Obliterator, even though I hate stealthers with a passion. I haven't seen TSS in action with the new sanc boosts but I would guess its doing alot better. I do agree on stealth having to recharge to re-use though.

I think upping the tradeskill XP is a good idea but that is too much xp the tradeskiller will be receiving. Maybe 500xTL.

I don't think the LOMs should be touched at all. Ussualy when people are doing heavy loming, it takes a day or two to complete which is fine by me. I'd perfer to play more rather than sitting around all day, so i would guess this factors more into enjoyment. But alas, we all play this game to have fun ;)
Leave loms as is.


Agreed with Si penalties, except LOM. More playing, less sitting around.

I won't get into tanks, pistols, and rifles atm, i'll just wait for more people with experience in them to comment on the ideas before I do. I r teh monkeh!

:angel:

Flyl
23-12-03, 20:55
SoulLight - I like them all, but with on exception. Last week I killed a nuetral who was attacking my mate and I went from 65 soul light to -14. Imo thats bull crap. I wouldnt want to suddenly lose 3 items based on one incident. SL drops should have a standard negative drop for every kill. Ie -15 for an ally, -10 for a nuetral. None of this blanket drop to -14 crap.


You could reduce the amount of soullight lost per kill, or, as a better solution, make it so you have to go 45% of the damage to a runner in order to lose soullight. Possibly make it so if you have more than 30 soullight, your first kill will lose you 10 soullight, and then after that you'll drop straight down to -14.



No, pes already have wayyy high defense and can stealth. And rifle offense is good enough the way it is now.


As it is at the moment, capped damage on the Pain Easer, Silent Hunter, Disrupter, and Redeemer is appaling in comparison to other weapons around the same Tech level. They have a lower rate of fire, and slow you down while moving. In all respect a boost to the damage rifles do in exchange for higher weapon lore requirements to force specialisation and limit the damage a PE can do with the gun, would be acceptable. As it is in order for a PE to cap a Pain Easer they need to be pure RC or have a kami chip in. In order to cap a Ray of God, they need a kami chip, or to be slightly gimped in terms of not having a Resistor chip in. Using a kami chip would mean the PE has lost its defensive capabilities, and therefore would remain balanced.



I'd love to see a rare poison beam, but there will be those who complain because they don't want to spec into poison. Some people just don't like the fact that their resist can't counter every type of damage by 100%. There will always be a weakness.

Again we're back to the "people wouldn't know balanced if it came upto them and hit them in the face, they're only interested in what makes their class better than the others".

The object of balance isn't to be immune to everything, godlike in every way. The object of balance is to be fair.

FuzzyDuck
23-12-03, 20:58
Originally posted by Flyl
[
Tanks

Tanks are one of the most powerful offensive classes in the game. While lacking the ability to do much more than fight, they have the potential to move faster, take more damage, and do more damage than any other class, this needs to be focused on when people complain they got beaten by a tank. In a solo fight - a duel, 1v1 with a tank, between two people with the same sort of skills, there should be no competition or indescision in the matter, the tanks greater consitution and cannon weapons should win.


wtf? I thought you wanted to balance the game. :rolleyes:

Flyl
23-12-03, 21:01
wtf? I thought you wanted to balance the game.


I don't play a tank. I play a PPU and a spy, and the fact that I can duel a tank 1v1 with my spy and win, points towards tanks being underpowered. Note that I never said the Cursed Soul needs boosting. I mentioned AOE weapons are too weak and that tank armour resist values should be boosted.

I also mentioned at the start of the post not to reply unless you were going to state an opinion. Thanks

Nexxy
23-12-03, 21:01
Nice ideas, though i dont like the SL idea or LoM but rest seems good. I dont believe freezers should be taken out either, drugs should be better even though they are quite good already. They should make you immune for a certain ammount of time, and be a bit cheaper. I go through 10 easily in a normal OP fight, not good on the creds.

Oh and gotta add tank AE weps should have better accuracy when shot on the move...

Kimiko
23-12-03, 21:02
All sounds brill, but I seriously have no faith in KK's desire to do anything that people really want - just what the people who shout the loudest do. This isnt really a flame of KK - theyve done a good job, but they dont seem very good at managing a MMORPG.

Psychoninja
23-12-03, 21:02
Originally posted by Flyl
You could reduce the amount of soullight lost per kill, or, as a better solution, make it so you have to go 45% of the damage to a runner in order to lose soullight. Possibly make it so if you have more than 30 soullight, your first kill will lose you 10 soullight, and then after that you'll drop straight down to -14.


10 to -14 is a pretty big jump. I do like the idea of 30+ SL keeps you in the positive after a kill. Shit just happens sometimes and sometimes it's intended, but either way going from any positive number in SL straight to negative is stupid. There should be pauses in between SL hits in the positives, not straight to the negative. Another thing that would be good is if KK finished implementing ClanWars and make it so people wouldn't loose SL for killing allied clans or neutral....
But thats for antoher time...

Agreed with Nexx on the drugs. A small immunity period would be nice.

Possessed
23-12-03, 21:05
@ shadow



Anybody who is going to flame or reply with one word answers need not bother, if you're going to reply I'm going to require you to give constructive critism for or against any particular argument, explaining your reasoning. Whining about nerfs or bugs or how it affects the class you play is the reason that the game is as unbalanced as it is at the moment.

Where are the reasons in your post...?

FuzzyDuck
23-12-03, 21:09
My idea of a balanced team games is stone paper scissors


e.g. Tank -(kills)> PE -(kills)> Spy -(kills)> Monk -(kills)> Tank



but every idea has their flaws - yours need some thought but there's a germ of a good idea there somewhere.

greendonkeyuk
23-12-03, 21:35
i like most of the ideas but the lom thing im not into. wtb rifle combat loms jus doesnt sound too interesting to me. freezers definately agree with and most of the other stuff. monkwise id rather not see too many hybrids back at all, i think separate disciplines is better, its more rp too. other than that i cant see much to disagree with. wellthought and very thought provoking.

Shadow Dancer
23-12-03, 22:33
Originally posted by Flyl


As it is at the moment, capped damage on the Pain Easer, Silent Hunter, Disrupter, and Redeemer is appaling in comparison to other weapons around the same Tech level. They have a lower rate of fire, and slow you down while moving. In all respect a boost to the damage rifles do in exchange for higher weapon lore requirements to force specialisation and limit the damage a PE can do with the gun, would be acceptable. As it is in order for a PE to cap a Pain Easer they need to be pure RC or have a kami chip in. In order to cap a Ray of God, they need a kami chip, or to be slightly gimped in terms of not having a Resistor chip in. Using a kami chip would mean the PE has lost its defensive capabilities, and therefore would remain balanced.



I agree that disruptor, redeemer, and SH aren't exactly hot items. And since their postly SPY weapons I think they should get a boost.

But remember, a PE can already cap damage on a PE. I don't think a PE should be doing anymore damage.

Lexxuk
23-12-03, 22:50
Originally posted by Flyl
As it is in order for a PE to cap a Pain Easer they need to be pure RC or have a kami chip in.

That bit is incorrect, a Tech PE using a ROG can, and does, cap damage on both the ROG & PE without a Kami/SA (me did :p). Rifles are more powerful than Pistols, its just you really need to gimp Weaponlore to use Rifles, whilst a pistol PE can get away with 50-70 lore.