View Full Version : Lucky spots
I've noticed this recently with having Researching. I am beginning to think it is not a fluke.
I recall one time getting weapons made from a TG CST guy in canyon, and the reason he got my business was because he was nearly always able to get me a couple of slots in a group of 10.
I have started researching (from TL135) and while researching numerous (and I mean numerous) L, T, E's I have only lost one Tech Part. That was a T. I failed a lot sometimes but good with the researching. This was in Tech Haven (I'm Fallen Angel)
Then I had a couple of jobs in NC. Plaza 2, Plaza 4. No where the same amount of stuff researched, and I lost so far 5 tech parts (one of them was an L!).
So there may actually be some kind of hidden 'luck' bonus based on your faction/location.
Originally posted by Archeus
I've noticed this recently with having Researching. I am beginning to think it is not a fluke.
I recall one time getting weapons made from a TG CST guy in canyon, and the reason he got my business was because he was nearly always able to get me a couple of slots in a group of 10.
I have started researching (from TL135) and while researching numerous (and I mean numerous) L, T, E's I have only lost one Tech Part. That was a T. I failed a lot sometimes but good with the researching. This was in Tech Haven (I'm Fallen Angel)
Then I had a couple of jobs in NC. Plaza 2, Plaza 4. No where the same amount of stuff researched, and I lost so far 5 tech parts (one of them was an L!).
So there may actually be some kind of hidden 'luck' bonus based on your faction/location.
Would that maybe why my tank made a 5 slot heal with 69% stats at malstrond ? outta a batch of 5 O_o
CRAIG DIGGERS
22-12-03, 02:01
Slots are random with any char anyway.
We had a skill 203 researcher and lost always about 3-5 of 100 tech parts, doesnt matter where we researched.
I haven't lost a TP in so long I can't remember it happening. Certainly hundreds, if not thousands done since I lost one.
220RES :D
i only cst at rockshore lol i get slots there for example 2day i made a 4 slot CS :D
Originally posted by CRAIG DIGGERS
Slots are random with any char anyway.
Slots are not random. Any mathamatition will tell you there is no such thing as random.
Clicky (http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html)
TheDuckMan
22-12-03, 05:32
lol what does the chaos theory have to do with a 4 slot CS or a 5 slot heal? And I dont meen we need more links, how about puttin it in your own words. I mean no offense, but the chaos theory has about as much to do with random slots as a tire does with my tongue.
I mean there is no command that says Create random slots from 0-5. I remember playing Jagged Alliance II, it was a tile based tactical game that tried to make the enemies seem to make random desicions, but because there is no such thing as random, the 'random' effect was determined by what move you had previously made. For example, If there was a 3x3 grid (even though there wasn't a map that small but it's an easy example) and you where in co-ordinate 1A, and you enemy in co-ordinate 3C, and at this point you saved your game. Then if you moved from Co-ordinates 1A to Co-ordinate 1C, ended turn, and then the enemy moved From co-ordinates 3C to Co-ordinate 3B, and then you loaded your saved game and made the exact same move, your enemy would again also make the exact same move, because your moves where the exactly the same and subconsiquently so where theres. However if you loaded your saved game and made your move instead of from 1A to 1C, but from 1A to 1B, you enemy's move would then be different. What I am saying is because there is no such thing as random, Neocron like Jagged Alliance must use variables from within the game to create the appearence of random.
As powerfull as computers are they can not defy the laws of physics. Slots are not random.
TheDuckMan
22-12-03, 06:22
Ok I see what your saying (i think). Your saying that certain factors effect what is going to happen next. Which is why you will probably never see 2 five slotters in a row from the same constructer.
But I was messing around in flash the other day and found a random number code. It will produce a random number within the parimeters you define. Now what if everytime you click start in your little prcess window, there is alittle code that generates a "random" number from 1 to 100. Numbers ending in 5 would give you 1 slot, numbers between 90 and 100 would give you 4 slots, and so on. Wouldnt that make it random. But what i dont get is what influences that number being generated? Thats what I think effects slots but I am not sure how c++ or whatever this game was programmed in works.
Originally posted by TheDuckMan
Ok I see what your saying (i think). Your saying that certain factors effect what is going to happen next. Which is why you will probably never see 2 five slotters in a row from the same constructer.
But I was messing around in flash the other day and found a random number code. It will produce a random number within the parimeters you define. Now what if everytime you click start in your little prcess window, there is alittle code that generates a "random" number from 1 to 100. Numbers ending in 5 would give you 1 slot, numbers between 90 and 100 would give you 4 slots, and so on. Wouldnt that make it random. But what i dont get is what influences that number being generated? Thats what I think effects slots but I am not sure how c++ or whatever this game was programmed in works.
That's pretty much what they do.
The numbers a computer presents as "random" are technically called "pseudo random". They are generated by performing a series of theoretically unrepeatable operations on a theoretically unpredictable start number (called a seed).
eg -
the seed is the second component of the current time in millionths of a second.
the computer takes that number and multiplies it by the checksum of a certain byte of volatile memory
then it divides it by your CPU ID
then subtracts your amount of memory in bits
then divides by the last octet of your IP
then multiplies by the check-sum of the last packet inbound on your NIC
then it fits that number to your scale and increments (eg integers between 0 and 5 for slots)
The number isn't truly random because if you EXACTLY repeated the process the answer would be the same but in practice it's as good as random.
Note - this example is total overkill - they don't do it that way in practice.
TheDuckMan
22-12-03, 07:15
strangely enough that makes sense. I dont want to complicate it so we'll just leave it at that :)
Researching at Chester Lab.....(on an unnamed server)
And I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that knows slots are not truely "random".......
Q`alooaith
22-12-03, 08:34
Originally posted by jernau
Note - this example is total overkill - they don't do it that way in practice.
Hell they even show the system's they use, the game clock and the facing of your char, hell it's simple enough, and it's got to "know" that info anyway..
I know slots are random. What I was saying was the constructor always got me at least 2 slot item out of 10 BPs.
But I am noticing a distinct difference between researching in Tech Haven and researching in NC.
Though they say that slots are "random", they are not. As benjie was saying, there is nothing that is random, not even slots.
And no, in code, its not random. If it were truly random, and you told a computer to pick 8 numbers randomly from 1-10, it would bring back multiple instances of one number. There are functions in all programming languages that prevent this.
Slots on a weapon a based on several different in-game variables that assist in the "choice" of how many slots to "return" to the weapon being created.
I personally believe that drugs and buffs lower the chance of getting slots, others will dissagree of course. But ive seen constructors at 200/150 with buffs and drugs build 10 rares and get a couple with slots, all the while seeing the same constructor build another 10 rares and get slots on all of the weapons while not using any drugs or buffs.
There are just too many different ingame variables that help with the chance of slots, finding the right combination of variables will always return a better chance of slots, and should probably be kept a secret by the constructor.
Anyway, thats my two cents...
~Deo
Const with 200/150 glove/op/buff every single drug in the store that u can buy
makes 3 RoLH's
1 X 1 slot
1 X 4 slot
1 X 5 slot
AlphaGremlin
22-12-03, 13:19
On the topic of random numbers, I know there's some program that can generate random numbers based upon the static in your soundcard. That stuff is about as random as you're going to get.
Original monk
22-12-03, 14:00
i know there random, but still i can feel when i gonna get slots, or when im veeery close to a multislotter, i dunno how lol. But in 9 out of 10 cases when i have that feeling someone comes nagging to build sumthing for em (altough i mostly build for myself) and ffcourse that moment i make a 4 or 5 slotter :/
so: you get 4 or 5 slots when you build for some-one else and ya get 0 to 1 slot when you build for yourself :P
no real logic in this, hell its even uterly crappy nonsense, but still : its true lol: daamn slotsnatchers
Q`alooaith
22-12-03, 14:03
Originally posted by Original monk
so: you get 4 or 5 slots when you build for some-one else and ya get 0 to 1 slot when you build for yourself :P
this is why you should alway's carry a project for yourself, if you get that feeling that you about the mega slot somthing just stop working for the guy and do your own, then carry on with his low sloted junk..
Listen people, if you say "slots are random" that does NOT mean that you pick a number 1-5, and then that number = number of slots.
There are THOUSANDS of ways to arrive at results via random numbers. But at the heart of the calculation in this game is a random number function that is built in to the language the game was coded in. How THAT number is used we dont know... but it could be like someone said- pick a random number from 1-100. If its 99 or 100, its 5 slots. If its 90-98, 4 slots. etc.
We also dont know how they modify the random number once it is picked. We know a TL50 item has a better chance of getting 5 slots than a TL 90 item. So maybe they pick a random number from 1 - 100, then multiply that number by the build quality of the item. So a low TL item, which caps at 94% quality, could go from 0-94. A high TL item, that caps at 84% quality, could go from 0-84. So then they say if you get 84-100, thats 5 slots. So a low TL item would then have a better chance of getting 5 slots (1 in 10), where a high TL item would get five slots 1 in 100.
That is NOT how it works, but that could be similar to how it works.
And no, there are no lucky spots. Its merely a matter of chance in terms of how you do in that batch at that location. We have been told how it works, and players have peered into the code to see how it works. Location has nothing to do with it.
Can we get off the whole 'slot' thing. I was not talking about that (it was an example).
Researching seems to work better for me in Tech Haven and I'm an FA. In NC my researching seems to fail fatally a heck of a lot more.
Back on topic, the only way for a location to add to your success is if it directly increased one of your skills.
Can a location secretly increase your skills without it showing? I GUESS thats possible.
But I doubt thats the case.
because this is an mmorpg, they would not use clientside information to generate random numbers. because it would be exploitable. They would also not use unessicary information because it would cause unnessicary lag. :p So that means it is probable they use information that already exists within Neocron. Like Time, Zone, Faction Sympathy, how many people are online. So perhaps there is such thing as a 'lucky' item. Something which effects the 'seed'. Perhaps at a certain hour of the day at a certain location, with a member of a certain faction, you are more likely to get a 5 slotted Cursed Soul than a No Slotted Cursed Soul. :rolleyes:
*edit*
Lets say a teck has a 1/100 chanceof being dropped, it's not whether or not that you get that lucky number 1, it's whether the circumstances are right, and the circumstances are likely derived from information produced by Neocron. However, as Strych9 suggested, there is probabally an equasion to jumble up the starting factor to make it more random and have less to do with the surrounding world.
But if people are finding lucky areas, lucky constructors, lucky factions....
It makes me ponder....
TheDuckMan
22-12-03, 18:33
Originally posted by Strych9
Listen people, if you say "slots are random" that does NOT mean that you pick a number 1-5, and then that number = number of slots.
There are THOUSANDS of ways to arrive at results via random numbers. But at the heart of the calculation in this game is a random number function that is built in to the language the game was coded in. How THAT number is used we dont know... but it could be like someone said- pick a random number from 1-100. If its 99 or 100, its 5 slots. If its 90-98, 4 slots. etc.
We also dont know how they modify the random number once it is picked. We know a TL50 item has a better chance of getting 5 slots than a TL 90 item. So maybe they pick a random number from 1 - 100, then multiply that number by the build quality of the item. So a low TL item, which caps at 94% quality, could go from 0-94. A high TL item, that caps at 84% quality, could go from 0-84. So then they say if you get 84-100, thats 5 slots. So a low TL item would then have a better chance of getting 5 slots (1 in 10), where a high TL item would get five slots 1 in 100.
That is NOT how it works, but that could be similar to how it works.
And no, there are no lucky spots. Its merely a matter of chance in terms of how you do in that batch at that location. We have been told how it works, and players have peered into the code to see how it works. Location has nothing to do with it.
that looks alot like what we were just saying, i dont think you had to retype it :p
People are superstitious, that's all it is. If your football team wins 3 games in a row, you keep on wearing your underwear inside out or you wear those lucky pink socks. The same goes in Neocron. The constructor I usualy use believes that there is a quota for high sloted items, if he has just recently built something with lots of slots, then he won't be making another for while. In otherwords you give him junk to do for a bit, then give him your important items.
As for research, I'm of the opinion that it's biased against monks. When I compare notes with spies, I find that I fail a lot more then they do. I used to blaim this on my tool, but again the spies informed me that tool quality doesn't matter. Even back when a group of researchers on pluto formed an organization to standardize prices and build up the trust with customers. I was the only monk and for me, the prices were awfuly low. My expenses seemed to be quite a bit more then the spies.
At the moment, I believe these are the main influencing factors on research failure rate:
1) Int level (when my alt spy finnaly broke 100 int with some imps, her failure level dropped quite a bit. Since then I started taking int drugs while doing E's and never fail. Without drugs I might fail.)
2) Obviously Research level (supposedly if you have skill double the tl of the item you will not get any critical failures. At a Lab I destroyed an E when my skill was 230)
3) Spies > Monks
4) I still believe Tool Quality influences failure rate, I've done experiments that show this. Yet everyone else I talk to has also done experiments which disprove this.
I am not sure if KK would make a skill do better for one class than another, based solely on class. The formula for research says its the research skill and int.
The reason spy > monk for construction is because Dex comes into play, and monks have poor dex vs spies. But for research, where Dex doesnt matter, I am not sure what would make a monk do worse than a spy.
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Hell they even show the system's they use, the game clock and the facing of your char, hell it's simple enough, and it's got to "know" that info anyway..
The random number generator is lower level than the game-code.
/edit @benjie - why would they write their own genrerator when every PC already has one? They just ask the OS to give them one - job done.
Originally posted by Deo
And no, in code, its not random. If it were truly random, and you told a computer to pick 8 numbers randomly from 1-10, it would bring back multiple instances of one number. There are functions in all programming languages that prevent this.
There is no reason why such a small sample should not return them all the same. The odds are very long but it is theoretically possible both for a truly random and a pseudo random system. Allowing previous results to affect the outcome would be a big mistake.
Originally posted by Deo
There are just too many different ingame variables that help with the chance of slots, finding the right combination of variables will always return a better chance of slots, and should probably be kept a secret by the constructor.
From what we've been told it seems the only in-game variable applied is "overall CST level after the cap is applied". Beyond that it's all down to unpredictable variations in your CPU. As yet no-one has provided any evidence we are being mislead on this.
RuriHoshino
22-12-03, 20:12
Originally posted by Strych9
Back on topic, the only way for a location to add to your success is if it directly increased one of your skills.
Can a location secretly increase your skills without it showing? I GUESS thats possible.
But I doubt thats the case.
It is. Industrial Lab A works that way for unclanned, LE'd researchers. It's a leftover from the beta days.
You show no increase in subskill, but researching is easier there.
Originally posted by Strych9
Back on topic, the only way for a location to add to your success is if it directly increased one of your skills.
Can a location secretly increase your skills without it showing? I GUESS thats possible.
But I doubt thats the case.
INDA lab used to do just this to RES.
Some OP bonuses still do I think.
/edit - too slow :(
RuriHoshino
22-12-03, 20:32
*giggle* sorry jernau :D
I just have fast fingers today:angel:
Originally posted by RuriHoshino
It is. Industrial Lab A works that way for unclanned, LE'd researchers. It's a leftover from the beta days.
You show no increase in subskill, but researching is easier there.
Thought they disabled that months ago?
Originally posted by Archeus
Thought they disabled that months ago?
Yeah, I think they did but still - it was an example of a skill applied but not shown.
TheDuckMan
22-12-03, 20:49
Everyone know's ROE's bench on Saturn right? She made me plenty of 5 and 4 slotters. Now, what if that particular seat adds something to the calculation or the seed that makes the "random number" more likely to be the result or sum that will give you more slots. Ouuch that hurts me head. :confused:
Which kinda is like what you guys are talking about in the industrial zones. I think...... except this would be more un-official.
Roe had great PR. Shame her skills weren't up to it for most of her career .
If your answer to me saying that locations dont give hidden bonuses is to point out a bug- then I stand by what I said. Bugs are bugs, not features. ;)
Ind A was not supposed to do that, and all Ops are supposed to show you your increases.
So is Techhaven, or Roes bench (lol) bugged? I guess it could be-- although the bug in Ind A you both mention would NOT have the effect that people are suggesting. They are suggesting some sort of skill point increase, they are suggesting something to modify the slot chances or something.
To Clarify:
1. People suggest areas somehow modify the random chances associated with building.
2. Areas, so far, have only increased skills, which doesnt directly modify the random chances if the skills are already high enough.
3. If an area can actually alter the random chances beyond what the devs have indicated and what the game files have indicated... then its totally unknown up to this point by anyone.
True. we were just pointing out that hidden stat bonue effects can happen.
IIRC the INDA one was always like that, even when it was an OP so wasn't a bug per se.
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