View Full Version : Tradeskill XP
I was just showing Neocron to a mate who is a pretty avid gamer and who likes RPG/character development type games (he has a scary recollection of things like AD+D rules he read once at about 10).
So I was explaining how levelling and skills work in 'cron. This was all fine until we got to INT. He almost literally fell off his chair when I explained that I got up to 10x as much INTELLIGENCE XP from shooting a gun as I do from blueprinting the most complex items in the game. I didn't mention poking (which is essentially brain surgery), he might have had a coronary.
I can see this is going to be the butt of a thousand jokes now and quite frankly it deserves to be.
Come on KK, you've forced us into this despicable monotasking, specialised-to-fuck, cookie-cutter, mule-needing agony of a system, at least let the tradeskillers get something back for doing their one task.
I know this has come up a hundred times before but it needs to keep coming up till they fix it. It's more annoying to me than certain other pet whines on these forums.;)
Yes.
Also I heard the one good thing about SW:G was the tradeskilling. What was so great about it there?
all i got to say about the title of this thread......
its a joke
:o
Tradeskiller sucks... and get real KK noone will LOM to tradeskill just to cap it. It aint that fun to "move click, move click, move click" or "click,click,click,click,click,click,click,click,click,click,click"
KRIMINAL99
20-12-03, 01:56
desire to stop powergamers + total disregard for casual gamers = tradeskill xp system.
Shadow Dancer
20-12-03, 03:55
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
desire to stop powergamers + total disregard for casual gamers = tradeskill xp system.
roflmao
I see you're going with the equation thing.
Well anyways, I agree.
screw Xp I just wish it was actually creatie .. where you had to play a game sorta to create weapon .. research . .repair .. . or such .. like the hack interface ... the way it works now could sorta work for construction . for the quality output of it .. but the points for hte game would just make it easier for you . . and make some tradeskill animations dern it ..lol. Or at least put a lil bubble above the person's head when they are in tradeskill process . .. with the tool image of what they are doing. Also make a proper look for the poke tool rather than a character standing around like he has a spell out
totally fuckin agree....tradeskills in general are long overdue for a fix...
I feel for ya trade skillers.....
My friend has a trade skiller....
hes had it since febuary..... his rank is around 0/35 i think.....
nuff said
YES!!!!!
i got a barter 118...no implant and no xp at all selling troopies...
ok i understand why with barter..like poeple gaining 1000 xp for each item they sell...everyone would have at least 1 point in barter and started selling junk you find in roach...
but at least at LvL 118 when i sell a troopie for over 111k..i should at least get more then 50 xp for selling 20 of them.. Its like the most ridiculous thing in the whole fucking game... im sure killing a roach will give me more then 50 xp..
Richard Blade
20-12-03, 05:33
My spy started as a constructor. Then lommed completely to rifles, then for some silly reason to pistols. But, in going to pistols it allowed me to put some construction back on him.
When I started him in construction, he had 147 and 80'ish levels in int and dex. Now, he's 117 constr, 112 int and 113 dex.
What I've noticed is that beginner tradeskillers max their tradeskill as fast as possible. If you construct a low level item, then you get very little xp. If you construct a high level item, you get better xp.
The obvious answer to this would be to keep your skill low at the lower levels. However, based on how construction (researching) works, the quality (success) of your work depends on a higher skill than would allow you to gain xp.
This is an imbalance in tradeskills that if addressed might help fix the problem.
Some of the best xp my constructor made was at a lab doing level one implant blueprints. His base INT is 96 and he was getting about 1k for each blueprint. Using the lab bonus, SS chip, and constr one buff, he had ... I think 43 reasearch points.
If he tried to build any weapon parts below level 7, he'd get 1/5xp points. That's 1 point every 5 parts.
So, yeah, I voted yes. Unf*ck this little mess please.
When you reach INT level 85, and calculate that you will need to research well over thirty *thousand* expensive rares to cap INT alone it becomes pretty obvious that the whole system is badly fucked.
It's either a deliberate policy, or KK simply don't care enough about the issue to do anything about it. It's not like it's secret or unexpected info that hasn't come to their attention before.
N.B. (that calc is with the processor bar running continuously with no interruptions or failures for over 26 days solid, and assuming the XP per item doesn't change beyond INT 85)
Originally posted by Jest
Also I heard the one good thing about SW:G was the tradeskilling. What was so great about it there?
The XP system in Star Wars Galaxies works pretty much like this: Firstly, you get the initial XP for producing an item. harder more complex gear gets more XP as per usual.
However, you also get XP whenever somebody uses an item you've made. Say for instance you build a rifle, every time someone else uses it you get some XP.
It's a pity Experiance works the way it does in 'cron for tradeskilling. The only way to become a tradeskiller I find is to work up first as a combat class then LOM to tradeskills, since it's far faster.
lol or do what we used to do....take spy lvling with us and just let him leech, cst spy.......with repair dex...........heacy fire belt....HEat 3 + s/d worked quiet well
and as u going xp when dead as well he lvled quiet fast lowl
I researched for two months solid and leveled my researcher from int 81 to int 99 which hes currently at, all it takes is mind numbing dedication to research, and someone with an insatiable appetite for PN bp's. But i agree neocron either needs a SWG like system, where, when someone uses the item you build you gain exp.
or
A system where you spend a little more time crafting things and your skill at doing this in conjunction with your tradeskill points, determines the quality of the finished product. (just to make the process slightly more entertaining)
and another thing, the bloody anti-macro code... they could at least have the window stay in one place for a say a set number of clicks (ten?) before it moves. theres nothing worse than the neocron version of "whack a mole" *click, -moves-, click, -moves-, click, ad infinitum....
The only way you're going to get decent XP back into tradeskilling is if either LoMing is removed or another method of reskilling is implemented. It would be entirely too easy to max out INT via tradeskilling and then LoM into combat skills.
NC is first and foremost combat-oriented. All the changes and patches made over the past 2+ years moved the game in this direction. If you want to max out as a tradeskiller right now you're going to have to use combat or be very, very, patient.
I personally dont have a problem with the current system, but then again I dont own one single tradeskiller.....HOWEVER....moms husband plays my acct on uranus who happens to be paralized from chest down and unfortunately had to use a stick in his mouth to play the game....now im not of course asking for a handicap accessable game controller, but as it stands about the only thing he can do is tradeskill.....and also unfortunately once his researcher hit about INT lvl 40 gaining XP to lvl again is like pulling teeth(for those unfamiliar with the analogy means its basically a pain in the ass).....
anyways i from watching him found a few inconsistencies in tradeskilling....for example why does researching only give INT XP when csting and repairing give INT, STR, and DEX......why is there no barter implants??? why is there only one non rare implant u can use to get ress skill(i mean with a cst chip u can use all 3, but u can only wear one backbone at a time...and i for one would thing researching is mostly brain use so why is a backbone used) why when ressing something like a punisher which is TL 120 do u get like 6k XP and when u kill a 120/120 chaser u get like 50k.....i can understand that obviously a punisher ress or cst shouldnt give 50k XP but cmon lets find a happy medium afterall it takes longer to ress a punisher than it does to kill a grim chaser......
but again this is just observations.....
ayie, i hope they do fix the trade skill thing
a problem that has gone long unaddressed, and for high level trade skill chars reduces them to situations their charicter might not be fit for in order to seek out XP.
BB
There's nothing to fix.
There's nothing broken.
NC is combat-oriented. You're not supposed to have pure tradeskill characters. All the changes that have gone in support this position - from capping quality and slot chances at certain Const/INT/DEX thresholds to reducing the XP gain for tradeskills to upping implant bonuses to the op bonus changes to gloves. The entire game has been tuned to allow tradeskills to exist alongside combat specializations, and at the same time force combat to be the primary leveling tool after a certain point.
The people who want things "fixed" still haven't figured out that there isn't anything "broken" in the first place. This is the way NC is supposed to be according to KK.
Originally posted by IceStorm
There's nothing to fix.
There's nothing broken.
NC is combat-oriented. You're not supposed to have pure tradeskill characters.
ok this is about the biggest load of ignorance ive ever heard out of someones mouth...first off eat this
Play with (and against) thousands of players online in the post apocalyptic world of the 28th century. You become a citizen of one of the last mega cities on Earth (Neocron) and it is up to you whether you want to experience exciting adventures or just lead a normal life in this virtual world.
TAKEN FROM NEOCRON HOMEPAGE....now I would assume "normal" life to be of a non-combatant nature.....secondly where do you get off that youre not supposed to have a pure tradeskill character? youre assuming that every person who owns a computer has the means to be a combat character...if you have no clue what im on about read my previous post....in the meantime think before you speak, you only embarass youreself with a post like that.
and it is up to you whether you want to experience exciting adventures or just lead a normal life in this virtual world
I lead a normal life in NC. I PvM. I research, construct, repair, recycle, and drive. I have a character that can do all this. I'm not "best" at anything, I'm average/good at many things. I do not take part in PvP, op wars, PKing ProtoPharma or TG, or switch factions - all these would be "exciting adventures" in my book.
While "normal" is open to interpretation, I don't believe KK had in mind sitting on a bench in PL1 all day long. This is a game, after all.
secondly where do you get off that youre not supposed to have a pure tradeskill character?
Based on every change KK has made over the past two years. I already said, "All the changes that have gone in support this position - from capping quality and slot chances at certain Const/INT/DEX thresholds to reducing the XP gain for tradeskills to upping implant bonuses to the op bonus changes to gloves. The entire game has been tuned to allow tradeskills to exist alongside combat specializations, and at the same time force combat to be the primary leveling tool after a certain point."
youre assuming that every person who owns a computer has the means to be a combat character
No, I'm not. I am stating that this is the game KK has made. If you only want to do tradeskills, you're going against the flow that KK has put into the game. If a person wants to do that, they can, but they'll find it very difficult.
There is nothing "broken" in the game with respect to tradeskill XP. This is the game KK wanted. If one doesn't want to play it, one doesn't have to...
in the meantime think before you speak, you only embarass youreself with a post like that.
You may want to take your own advice. I've already shown that the current state of tradeskill XP gains and leveling is not one that has been here since the start. The game has moved in this direction over the past 2+ years. Changes have been made so that tradeskills can exist alongside combat skills and at the same time tradeskill XP gains have been "nerfed" so that you have to participate in hunting to level after a certain point.
All you're doing is trying to force the game to change to accommodate you. Perhaps you may want to step back and see that "you" arent't the center of KK's universe. It's their game. If this is what they want (and the changes they've made over the past two years make it pretty clear that it is), then who are you to tell them otherwise? I don't see MJS supporting an "entertainer class" as a primary character anytime soon, do you? :-)
Icestorm - that's a heavily biased interpretation.
Firstly - the ONLY combat skill that works alongside a tradeskill without totally gimping one or both is Pistols on a Spy and even then you'll have a shite rig for PvP.
Second - XP gain was nerfed in beta because you could cap on some tradeskills. They went too far - we all know KK have a habit of doing that. It had nothing to do with combat/trade balance as at that time you could have easily had 2 decent combat skills as well and a decent tradeskill.
Thirdly - The fact that the non-rare cap is low for CST is a hangover from the pre-specialisation days. Most tradeskillers would gladly see it raised so their investment was better rewarded.
Fouthly - If KK don't want tradeskills to be a major part of the game why have they implemented so many of them and why do they keep adding more trade related items and functions.
It is broken atm and it does need fixing - look at the poll results if you think I'm wrong.
Originally posted by IceStorm
All you're doing is trying to force the game to change to accommodate you. Perhaps you may want to step back and see that "you" arent't the center of KK's universe. It's their game. If this is what they want (and the changes they've made over the past two years make it pretty clear that it is), then who are you to tell them otherwise? I don't see MJS supporting an "entertainer class" as a primary character anytime soon, do you? :-)
explain machina gloves then? or the boost in trader chip gains.....tradeskillers are a HUGE part of this game, and if u cant see that...reroll a character and only use store bought shit and see how far it gets you.......
Icestorm - that's a heavily biased interpretation.
Firstly - the ONLY combat skill that works alongside a tradeskill without totally gimping one or both is Pistols on a Spy and even then you'll have a shite rig for PvP.
Construction: Boost 3 from a PPU - 20 pts. Op bonus - 50 pts. Glove - 15 pts. You're up to 85 const levels WITH NO XP POINTS EXPENDED. If you burn, say, 50 INT XP points from a Spy (out of our 553 pts), you can get to 135 construct and still have 165 base weapon lore, and still burn all your imp slots on non-tradeskill bonuses. After hitting 100 INT/DEX, you'll be building to cap on all non-rare items. The only major stumbling block may be success rate.
It is quite possible to build a character that can tradeskill without burning a lot of pts on tradeskill subskills.
XP gain was nerfed in beta because you could cap on some tradeskills.
I see no reason for KK to reverse this when the LoM pills are still in the game. The reason for the nerf still stands.
The fact that the non-rare cap is low for CST is a hangover from the pre-specialisation days. Most tradeskillers would gladly see it raised so their investment was better rewarded
The cap was added to the game in one of the betas. It wasn't there initially in Beta 2, far as I'm aware.
If KK don't want tradeskills to be a major part of the game why have they implemented so many of them and why do they keep adding more trade related items and functions.
They're important to the game, but they changes made over time have made it clear they're not an end-all, be-all, unlike combat which is and has become even moreso with the raising of damage/aming caps.
explain machina gloves then? or the boost in trader chip gains....
I already did. Those boosts allow one to tradeskill AND fight. The +15 rsch I'm getting from my Adv Nerves 3 means I can burn less INT on Research and put more into Weapon Lore. The +15 recycle I get from my Recycle glove means less points burned in recycle to clone ammo and more spent in TC, RC, and VHC.
The bolstering of tradeskills via boosts to existing imps supports dual mode combat/tradeskill characters, especially when coupled with the hard cap on quality and slot chances. The raising of the damage/aiming caps to 178%/267% supports the observation that KK has moved the game to having a combat-oriented focus.
It is broken atm and it does need fixing - look at the poll results if you think I'm wrong.
What I see is 40-odd people out of NC's five-digit subscriber base saying they want a more tradeskill-specialized NC. Wake me when you get a few thousand individual responses.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I already did. Those boosts allow one to tradeskill AND fight. The +15 rsch I'm getting from my Adv Nerves 3 means I can burn less INT on Research and put more into Weapon Lore. The +15 recycle I get from my Recycle glove means less points burned in recycle to clone ammo and more spent in TC, RC, and VHC.
The bolstering of tradeskills via boosts to existing imps supports dual mode combat/tradeskill characters, especially when coupled with the hard cap on quality and slot chances. The raising of the damage/aiming caps to 178%/267% supports the observation that KK has moved the game to having a combat-oriented focus.
yes but given the circumstances at hand surely even you in all youre infinite arguementative nature can agree that at some point SOMEONE in the game is going to have to specialize.....i mean honestly, would you want a first love constructed by youre hypothetical TL 135 constructor??? I seriously doubt it...you can argue all you want about how KK this and that, yet noone has argued the fact that its very feasible to to both fight and tradeskill.....however they DID intend for specialization, and tradeskilling is among them....because you cannot, i mean CANNOT expect to build anything good with a TL 135 constructor....especially a rare......you want to still argue that is fine, but i think ive made my point.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Construction: Boost 3 from a PPU - 20 pts. Op bonus - 50 pts. Glove - 15 pts. You're up to 85 const levels WITH NO XP POINTS EXPENDED. If you burn, say, 50 INT XP points from a Spy (out of our 553 pts), you can get to 135 construct and still have 165 base weapon lore, and still burn all your imp slots on non-tradeskill bonuses. After hitting 100 INT/DEX, you'll be building to cap on all non-rare items. The only major stumbling block may be success rate.
Ignoring of course the fact that 99% of CST is done in Plaza 1 without PPU support - something that hasn't and won't change. Tell me how you intend to get 220 RES (rare-safe) without an OP and still fight.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I see no reason for KK to reverse this when the LoM pills are still in the game. The reason for the nerf still stands.
So you think KK (or an other game-maker) get all their balance adjustments right first time? You've never seen them overdo it? I'd also like to see LoMs gone but that's another matter...
Originally posted by IceStorm
The cap was added to the game in one of the betas. It wasn't there initially in Beta 2, far as I'm aware.
A hell of a lot about tradeskills and the game in general has changed since then. Most of it has been part of the policy of enforced specialisation.
Originally posted by IceStorm
They're important to the game, but they changes made over time have made it clear they're not an end-all, be-all, unlike combat which is and has become even moreso with the raising of damage/aming caps.
Like I said : "that's a heavily biased interpretation". Enforced specialisation has affected tradeskills just as much as combat skills. You can't only look at one side of the scales.
yes but given the circumstances at hand surely even you in all youre infinite arguementative nature can agree that at some point SOMEONE in the game is going to have to specialize.....i mean honestly, would you want a first love constructed by youre hypothetical TL 135 constructor???
Why does every constructor have to be over 135? Are there not plenty of lower-level weapons and implants that need building?
yet noone has argued the fact that its very feasible to to both fight and tradeskill.
I thought it was pretty obvious that I do just that. I'm 173 const (glove/imps/+25 op bonus/boost 1), 160 rsch (glove/imps/+25 op bonus/boost 1), 75 repair (glove/imps/boost 1), 37 VHC (all pts), 55 hack (imps), around 110 Weapon Lore (imps, boost 1), 166 RC (imps/boost 1), 110 TC (imps/boost1), 47 recycle (glove, imps, boost 1), and cap damage and RoF on the Tangent Prototype laser rifle Hardly a shabby setup for hunting Warbots, exploring (Obliterator), researching all my raresl, building all my weapons, and repairing all my equipment. I've capped and spent all my DEX pts, but I've still 10 or 20 INT pts to use (two levels to cap and I have some pts free right now).
Ignoring of course the fact that 99% of CST is done in Plaza 1 without PPU support - something that hasn't and won't change. Heh, most of my building is done outside Plaza 1, and I see plenty of adverts for op building. And what about Phoenix Ltd building in TH? "99%" is not a percentage you can back up with any hard numbers.
Like I said : "that's a heavily biased interpretation". Enforced specialisation has affected tradeskills just as much as combat skills. You can't only look at one side of the scales.
I'm looking at both sides. KK has forced an increase in combat skill point spending and reduced tradeskill point spending. I don't see any other way one would interpret the changes - they've removed XP gains for tradeskills over a certain level, put hard caps on quality and slots, and at the same time raised combat damage/aiming caps and made Weapon Lore a requirement for rifle/pistol combat. What other conclusions would you draw?
You may want to keep in mind that I'm not saying KK's decisions are "right" or "wrong, I'm pointing out that the way things are today is the result of changes made over the past two years. It didn't happen overnight. You can't just arbitrarily increase the XP gains on tradeskills without taking into account what rammifications that one change will have on the rest of the system. I've already pointed to LoMing as one main reason this change can't just be "made" right away.
Personally, I prefer hunting to researching. Construction can go either way. Cloning is nice since I get to sell lots of boosters and repair I do so infrequently that I don't care. Driving is a blast, especially when I park up close to a Y.trooper and take his picture. Variety is what keeps the game interesting for me, so changes that remove variety (like what you're suggesting) are, in my opinion, bad.. That they're not well thought out isn't helping things - you can't just change the XP gains on research and construction without adjusting the rest of the system...
Originally posted by IceStorm
Heh, most of my building is done outside Plaza 1, and I see plenty of adverts for op building. And what about Phoenix Ltd building in TH? "99%" is not a percentage you can back up with any hard numbers.
True 99% is unprovable but :
1) I've had 3 high level CSTs since retail and NEVER used an OP.
2) I see almost no-one else do it either. About once a month I see it advertised in P1 and no-one ever seems to ask for it.
3) Phoenix might as well be in P1 - they get no bonus in their apt.
Read it as "<1% of CST is done with L3 buffs at OPs" if you like.
wrt your general (unbalanced) POV :
The same TL increase in weapons that pushed people to need more weapon skills had EXACTLY the same effect on tradeskills. There is no "reduced tradeskill point spending", quite the opposite.
They haven't "removed XP gains for tradeskills over a certain level" at all. It's just that at high levels the discrepancies are much more obvious.
Actually the two changes that screwed up tradeskills did happen pretty much overnight and have never really been revisited. The weapon side of one of those changes is only just getting some attention on the TS. The other has been un-touched ever since and at the time no-one really cared because beta was about to end and everyone was looning about.
I prefer variety too - I hate this specialisation crap. If we have to have it though I want it to be equal and fair. I'd much rather have my Beta char viable again but I can't so I'd like to see my retail chars at least get an even chance of being useful.
Doubling (for example) XP from RES and CST would unbalance nothing. Like I said in my original post - "up to 10x as much INTELLIGENCE XP from shooting a gun as I do from blueprinting the most complex items in the game" - you cannot really believe that makes any sense at all? From a balance POV I can see why they might be slightly lower than combat skills due to the reduced risk but that's easily fixed by adjusting where the points go (CST only earning INT for example).
Read it as "<1% of CST is done with L3 buffs at OPs" if you like.
Again, can't prove it. I've a sneaking suspicion that the clan members I occasionally see hovering around factories or labs, with monks nearby, aren't there for the scenery...
The same TL increase in weapons that pushed people to need more weapon skills had EXACTLY the same effect on tradeskills.
Huh? TL increase in weapons? They raised the damage and aiming caps on weapons. They capped quality levels on built weapons. Capping a quality level means that over a certain number of points, all you get is an increased success rate. If you can deal with the failures, there's no problem building non-rares in NC with a const level of 135.
There is no "reduced tradeskill point spending", quite the opposite.How so? Const 200 or Const 135, with 100 INT and 100 DEX - both cap quality and thus slot chances on all non-rares.
They haven't "removed XP gains for tradeskills over a certain level" at all. It's just that at high levels the discrepancies are much more obvious.
Yes they have. XP gains for a particular item go down on rsch and construction as your level increases, be it subskill or general rank (which I'm not sure). When I started I would gain XP points for building low-TL items (parts, low level weapons). Now, I get a fraction of a point, if that. Research is the same way, however none of my research is instantaneous (unlike construction which is instantaneous up to around TL50), so I still get XP for researching even TL5 items...
Doubling (for example) XP from RES and CST would unbalance nothing.
Double of nothing is nothing. You probably want to change the sliding XP scale that ramps down so fast after a certain level.
Like I said in my original post - "up to 10x as much INTELLIGENCE XP from shooting a gun as I do from blueprinting the most complex items in the game" - you cannot really believe that makes any sense at all?
It makes perfect sense if KK intends NC to be combat-oriented...
From a balance POV I can see why they might be slightly lower than combat skills due to the reduced risk but that's easily fixed by adjusting where the points go (CST only earning INT for example).
Uh. 25% of capping in Construction is from DEX. Doing that would only help the INT side of construction, not the DEX side, meaning people would still have to fight and you're now right back where this all started...
Originally posted by IceStorm
Again, can't prove it. I've a sneaking suspicion that the clan members I occasionally see hovering around factories or labs, with monks nearby, aren't there for the scenery...
I said it was unprovable but I can count the times I've seen tradeskillers at OPs in the last month on the fingers of one hand. In almost every case they were there levelling because they were too low level to get jobs in Plaza.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Huh? TL increase in weapons? They raised the damage and aiming caps on weapons. They capped quality levels on built weapons. Capping a quality level means that over a certain number of points, all you get is an increased success rate. If you can deal with the failures, there's no problem building non-rares in NC with a const level of 135.
Exactly what I said. If you weren't there or don't remember then OK but it's true. I'm well aware of how it works now and how it has worked for a long time previous.
Originally posted by IceStorm
How so? Const 200 or Const 135, with 100 INT and 100 DEX - both cap quality and thus slot chances on all non-rares.
"At cap" - Not everyone is capped and many never will be.
"non-rares" - woohoo. Maybe you don't want to use rares but most people do and most CSTs want to make them. Making a nice 5-slot CS with your name on it is the aim of all serious CSTs. A lot of people play the tradeskill side of this game just as seriously as others do the combat side. There are plenty of players that got famous on tradeskills and others want to follow in their footsteps. You want to be average, fine, but why should others have to be?
Originally posted by IceStorm
Yes they have. XP gains for a particular item go down on rsch and construction as your level increases, be it subskill or general rank (which I'm not sure). When I started I would gain XP points for building low-TL items (parts, low level weapons). Now, I get a fraction of a point, if that. Research is the same way, however since none of my research is instantaneous (unlike construction which is instantaneous up to around TL50), so I still get XP for researching even TL5 items...
Excactly as killing a roach with a CS/HL/FL/PN gets you no XP you mean? What's your point?
Originally posted by IceStorm
Double of nothing is nothing. You probably want to change the sliding XP scale that ramps down so fast after a certain level.
As I said it's not nothing if you do the appropriate items. Smurfs don't XP on spiders so why would a high-level CST level on TL3 heals?
Originally posted by IceStorm
It makes perfect sense if KK intends NC to be combat-oriented...
You keep stating this like you speak for KK. You don't have "Reakktor Media" in your sig so I'm pretty sure you don't speak for them. Someone posted a quote earlier from KK which clearly conflicts with your personal interpretation of their position.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Uh. 25% of capping in Construction is from DEX. Doing that would only help the INT side of construction, not the DEX side, meaning people would still have to fight and you're now right back where this all started...
No, because a pure CST wouldn't want or need DEX. If he wanted he could also REP and/or REC to get DEX if those skills only levelled DEX.
Originally posted by jernau
"At cap" - Not everyone is capped and many never will be.
"non-rares" - woohoo. Maybe you don't want to use rares but most people do and most CSTs want to make them. Making a nice 5-slot CS with your name on it is the aim of all serious CSTs. A lot of people play the tradeskill side of this game just as seriously as others do the combat side. There are plenty of players that got famous on tradeskills and others want to follow in their footsteps. You want to be average, fine, but why should others have to be?
a-fuckin-men.....
I said it was unprovable but I can count the times I've seen tradeskillers at OPs in the last month on the fingers of one hand. In almost every case they were there levelling because they were too low level to get jobs in Plaza.
I research at a lab on a regular basis (1 to 4 times a week). It is not an uncommon occurance to see mid-level or high level people out at the ops working.
You may say it's unprovable, but you don't seem to be dropping it from your argument.
"At cap" - Not everyone is capped and many never will be.
That's a trade-off one has to elect to make. However, the tradeskill XP gains going down happen regardless of one's choice in that area.
. I'm well aware of how it works now and how it has worked for a long time previous.
I still don't see how increasing the damage/aiming caps affects tradeskill XP point usage. I guess maybe you're trying to say that the cap increases for weapons had a similar effect to the lack of cap in construction previously, but it's not entirely clear.
"At cap" - Not everyone is capped and many never will be.One who elects not to cap will still be affected by the existing XP gain rate problem. Solving the problem with XP gain rate increases only serves to make the tradeskilll/LoM to combat road that much easier.
"non-rares" - woohoo. Maybe you don't want to use rares but most people do and most CSTs want to make them.
Considering that I get plenty of work without building rares, it would seem that there is a large base of work for non-rare construction. There's also no proof that you need more Const/DEX/INT to have a better chance at getting artifact/multislot rares.
Making a nice 5-slot CS with your name on it is the aim of all serious CSTs.
I'm a serious constructor and I don't have any "5-slot CS" ambitions.
A lot of people play the tradeskill side of this game just as seriously as others do the combat side. There are plenty of players that got famous on tradeskills and others want to follow in their footsteps. You want to be average, fine, but why should others have to be?
I never said everyone has to be average. If there are famous tradeskillers then they apparently got that way somehow in-game. I never said it isn't possible to be a pure tradeskiller in the end-game, but it's not something that can be done easily without combat to get one there. Is there a reason those "folllowing in their footsteps" should have it any easier than those who are famous?
Excactly as killing a roach with a CS/HL/FL/PN gets you no XP you mean? What's your point?
The dropoff in XP gain is a very sharp slope vs combat which isn't. Killling Warbots (53/68) I get 25k to 30k INT XP for the kill and hack. Research a TL80 part and I get maybe 2k INT XP. In the time it takes me to do 15 TL80 parts, I could kill more than one Warbot. Tradeskill XP gain's dropoff is far worse than combat's...
You keep stating this like you speak for KK.
No, I don't. I say based on the evidence at hand, KK's been moving the game this way for over two years. What KK wants to do, I don't know. I can only go by the changes they've made as a guide to where the game's going. At least I have two years of changes to support my position...
Someone posted a quote earlier from KK which clearly conflicts with your personal interpretation of their position
What KK person? What thread?
No, because a pure CST wouldn't want or need DEX.
Based on the skills guide, a pure CST would want and need DEX to compete with other "uber" constructors...
If he wanted he could also REP and/or REC to get DEX if those skills only levelled DEX.
Yes, if XP gain rates were increased, but again you haven't given a method of increasing gain rates that also solves the tradeskill/LoM to combat problem.
Originally posted by IceStorm
You may say it's unprovable, but you don't seem to be dropping it from your argument.
That's because while the exact number may be disputable the point is not.
Originally posted by IceStorm
That's a trade-off one has to elect to make. However, the tradeskill XP gains going down happen regardless of one's choice in that area.
As do combat skills.....
Originally posted by IceStorm
There's also no proof that you need more Const/DEX/INT to have a better chance at getting artifact/multislot rares.
Tell that to all the people asking for TL200 CSTs. Being right in this case won't help you get the work. Also - it damn well should. If I get 200CST in P1 I ought to get an advantage for it or do you just want to drag all CSTs down to your level to make your life easier?
Originally posted by IceStorm
I'm a serious constructor and I don't have any "5-slot CS" ambitions.
Faie enough. The results of this poll and the comments in it and other previous threads ought to clearly demonstrate that you are a very small minority though.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I never said everyone has to be average. If there are famous tradeskillers then they apparently got that way somehow in-game. I never said it isn't possible to be a pure tradeskiller in the end-game, but it's not something that can be done easily without combat to get one there. Is there a reason those "folllowing in their footsteps" should have it any easier than those who are famous?
Well, some of them got their reputations before TLs changed, before the numerous slot-nerfs, when rare drops were higher (meaning more rares made), when slotties worked on rares, before gels got nerfed at Yos, etc. etc. It's actually got a lot harder since the first days of retail.
Originally posted by IceStorm
The dropoff in XP gain is a very sharp slope vs combat which isn't. Killling Warbots (53/68) I get 25k to 30k INT XP for the kill and hack. Research a TL80 part and I get maybe 2k INT XP. In the time it takes me to do 15 TL80 parts, I could kill more than one Warbot. Tradeskill XP gain's dropoff is far worse than combat's...
I think you'll find the relationship is constant. It's just that it is more obvious higher up.
Originally posted by IceStorm
No, I don't. I say based on the evidence at hand, KK's been moving the game this way for over two years. What KK wants to do, I don't know. I can only go by the changes they've made as a guide to where the game's going. At least I have two years of changes to support my position...
Based on your interpretation of some of the evidence at hand you mean ;). I think we have about the same experience to draw on so I'm not sure how that's relevant.
Originally posted by IceStorm
What KK person? What thread?
Extract
This thread
Originally posted by IceStorm
Based on the skills guide, a pure CST would want and need DEX to compete with other "uber" constructors...
Well then he'll be a constructor/repairer. They seem like perfectly matched skills in every way to me.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Yes, if XP gain rates were increased, but again you haven't given a method of increasing gain rates that also solves the tradeskill/LoM to combat problem.
I did - remove LoMs - but I also said that was another can of works. Besides this hardly seems relevant as :
a) I'm not advocating making it "better" than combat or even "as good as" combat simply that it be better than it is now. The gap is huge atm, I'd just like to see it smaller.
b) how is this any more wrong that levelling on drones then lomming to CST which is what a lot of people are doing now.
/edit - it's 6AM now so I'm going to bed. I'm sure you'll respond again but I won't for some time ;). Take care dude - nice to have a discussion on here that didn't turn into a slagging match.
Originally posted by jernau
I was just showing Neocron to a mate who is a pretty avid gamer and who likes RPG/character development type games (he has a scary recollection of things like AD+D rules he read once at about 10).
So I was explaining how levelling and skills work in 'cron. This was all fine until we got to INT. He almost literally fell off his chair when I explained that I got up to 10x as much INTELLIGENCE XP from shooting a gun as I do from blueprinting the most complex items in the game. I didn't mention poking (which is essentially brain surgery), he might have had a coronary.
I can see this is going to be the butt of a thousand jokes now and quite frankly it deserves to be.
Come on KK, you've forced us into this despicable monotasking, specialised-to-fuck, cookie-cutter, mule-needing agony of a system, at least let the tradeskillers get something back for doing their one task.
I know this has come up a hundred times before but it needs to keep coming up till they fix it. It's more annoying to me than certain other pet whines on these forums.;)
What happens when you tell your friend a real joke, do you have to take him to the hospital?
If this is the butt of a thousand jokes to some people, they really need some help and maybe a life haha.
That's because while the exact number may be disputable the point is not.
Of course it is. You say 99% of people build in Plaza 1. I say it's probably closer to 50%. Those ops aren't being held for no reason, PPUs don't wield Const Boost 3 for no reason, and if my comings and goings are any indication, there are plenty of people out there tradeskilling in the wastes. Clans don't advertise their members' coming and going...
There. Refuted. You say 99% of work is performed in PL1? I say it isn't. Neither one of us has hard numbers, so the value of this point in debate is moot.
As do combat skills.....
Combat XP gains go down far slower than tradeskill gains based on my experience. They're also easier to adjust - wielding a different weapon changes one's combat rank and therefore combat XP gain. With tradeskills, you can strip down your imps, but the impact it has on XP gains is minimal.
Tell that to all the people asking for TL200 CSTs.We do, they don't listen. Their loss.
Being right in this case won't help you get the work.I don't need it. My income in NC comes from a wide variety of sources, none of which are rare building.
Also - it damn well should. If I get 200CST in P1 I ought to get an advantage for itGiving an advantage would remove the general trend over the past two years to make tradeskills less of a trainpoint sink than they were.
or do you just want to drag all CSTs down to your level to make your life easier?Has nothing to do with my life, has to do with the trend to emphasize combat trainpoint drains over tradeskill drains.
The results of this poll and the comments in it and other previous threads ought to clearly demonstrate that you are a very small minority though.
They make no such thing clear. What they show is a vocal minority complaining (remember, 5-digit subscriber base) about a "problem" that doesn't exist. The game has been building to this point over a long period of time.
It's actually got a lot harder since the first days of retail.And it's gotten easier to research and build without becoming a total combat gimp as well.
I think you'll find the relationship is constant. It's just that it is more obvious higher up.
It's a steeper slope, especially when you take XP over unit time into account. After around INT/DEX 40 researching and building are far less effective than hunting, I found.
Based on your interpretation of some of the evidence at hand you mean .
I have not seen anyone correlate all the changes and show that they're going in the opposite direction. The only argument I saw was extract asking about the boost in imp bonuses and gloves, to which I replied those bonuses free up points for use elsewhere. If you want to disagree with my interpretation, fine, but just disagreeing without any evidence doesn't make a solid argument...
Extract
This thread
I already stated that while "normal" is open to interpretation, I'm pretty sure it didn't involve sitting on a bench in PL1 all day. If you want to argue that this was what KK meant by "normal", fine, but considering the vast number of zones, Epic missions, regular missions, and the vast number of items in the game, I'd have to say that sitting in PL1 all day building is not what was envisioned by a "normal" life...
Well then he'll be a constructor/repairer. They seem like perfectly matched skills in every way to me.
And if someone doesn't want to be but still wants to level DEX?
I did - remove LoMs - but I also said that was another can of works.
Exactly. It's not as simple as saying "removing LoMs". You're asking KK to reverse two years of trend in a single patch, it seems. It won't happen.
Besides this hardly seems relevant as :
a) I'm not advocating making it "better" than combat or even "as good as" combat simply that it be better than it is now. The gap is huge atm, I'd just like to see it smaller.
Well, there's not much point in making it smaller if combat is still the only way to level. 1/2 speed, maybe, but again there's an XP per unit time factor that has to be taken into account. It's not just pure XP gain per unit built, time's important.
b) how is this any more wrong that levelling on drones then lomming to CST which is what a lot of people are doing now.
By droning then LoMing, you lose a few top levels of INT and their corresponding INT pts.It's a sacrifice as once you lose your INT levels, you can't easily get them back. The price you pay for LoMing is the pain of gaining the last few levels back.
However, if you tradeskill, then LoM to combat, you gain those levels back very quickly due to the inherent XP gain associated with combat. To gain the last few INT or DEX levels with combat, especially in team, should take far less time than gaining them back via tradeskills.
Combat then LoMing is the lesser of the two powerleveling evils right now, it seems, as it's more painful to do from an XP perspective. It's not perfect, but nothing in this game is.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Of course it is. You say 99% of people build in Plaza 1. I say it's probably closer to 50%. Those ops aren't being held for no reason, PPUs don't wield Const Boost 3 for no reason, and if my comings and goings are any indication, there are plenty of people out there tradeskilling in the wastes. Clans don't advertise their members' coming and going...
There. Refuted. You say 99% of work is performed in PL1? I say it isn't. Neither one of us has hard numbers, so the value of this point in debate is moot.
Show me these people. I just checked 10 OPs - no tradeskillers anywhere. Then I went to P1 - nine tradeskillers. P4 also had a resser. Are they all working under stealth? I can redo this test tomorrow if you like and at various times but I think we all know the results won't change much.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Combat XP gains go down far slower than tradeskill gains based on my experience. They're also easier to adjust - wielding a different weapon changes one's combat rank and therefore combat XP gain. With tradeskills, you can strip down your imps, but the impact it has on XP gains is minimal.
True combat rank is more adjustable but the tail-off looks the same to me. Unless anyone wants to chart it and prove one of us wrong this is a matter of experience and opinion - in my experience they use the same formula.
Originally posted by IceStorm
We do, they don't listen. Their loss.
I don't need it. My income in NC comes from a wide variety of sources, none of which are rare building.
Again - this is your choice and your playstyle. Specialisation has made you a minority in this I'm afraid. I really wish it hadn't as it's how I used to play but it has.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Giving an advantage would remove the general trend over the past two years to make tradeskills less of a trainpoint sink than they were.Has nothing to do with my life, has to do with the trend to emphasize combat trainpoint drains over tradeskill drains.
Again with this perceived trend that really isn't there. At the end of B4 and even into the start of retail almost everyone had some form of tradeskill (even tanks). Since then ALL skills - combat and trade have become more demanding, not less.
Originally posted by IceStorm
They make no such thing clear. What they show is a vocal minority complaining (remember, 5-digit subscriber base) about a "problem" that doesn't exist. The game has been building to this point over a long period of time.
It's called a "sample". It's a common analytical procedure that saves the time of asking every individual for their opinion on every matter. You can argue how representative the sample is but you'll need to provide some reasoning not just declare an opinion as a fact.
Originally posted by IceStorm
And it's gotten easier to research and build without becoming a total combat gimp as well.
This again relies on the presence of all these mysterious invisible tradeskillers out in the wastes with their army of invisible monks buffing them.
Originally posted by IceStorm
It's a steeper slope, especially when you take XP over unit time into account. After around INT/DEX 40 researching and building are far less effective than hunting, I found.
I'd agree that it's at about that point the existing factors begin to become extremely obvious. Nothing changes at that point though, it's just that the discrepancy becomes more apparent. Like you say the gradients are different (or that's how I read you). That's what we are asking them to change. You stated before that the gradient changes for tradeskills - I'm certain that's not the case.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I have not seen anyone correlate all the changes and show that they're going in the opposite direction. The only argument I saw was extract asking about the boost in imp bonuses and gloves, to which I replied those bonuses free up points for use elsewhere. If you want to disagree with my interpretation, fine, but just disagreeing without any evidence doesn't make a solid argument...
OK -
1) Rare failure rates and destruction - increased
2) Rare drop-rates - decreased meaning getting it right is more important
3) Higher TL weapons - increases to ALL needs not just combat
4) Slot rates nerfed to hell - more and better builds needed
5) Slotties nerfed on rares - rare slottage is still a mystery and people will do all they can to improve the odds.
You still have yet to provide any actual evidence for your claim that KK want tradeskills to be less important now that previously.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I already stated that while "normal" is open to interpretation, I'm pretty sure it didn't involve sitting on a bench in PL1 all day. If you want to argue that this was what KK meant by "normal", fine, but considering the vast number of zones, Epic missions, regular missions, and the vast number of items in the game, I'd have to say that sitting in PL1 all day building is not what was envisioned by a "normal" life...
Believe it or not some people will pay good money to do just that. Some MMORPGs have nothing else in them at all. Not your style? Fair enough but why do you feel that others shouldn't be allowed to play their way?
Originally posted by IceStorm
And if someone doesn't want to be but still wants to level DEX?
Then remove the DEX effect on CST when you remove the levelling advantage - simple. The only reason to level DEX should be to use a DEX skill. Using a DEX skill earns DEX. Besides which, with no down-side to being dual-skilled, why not be?
Originally posted by IceStorm
Exactly. It's not as simple as saying "removing LoMs". You're asking KK to reverse two years of trend in a single patch, it seems. It won't happen.
More of the mythical "two year trend".... KK have reversed/changed many real things in those two years, I'm sure they can ignore something that doesn't even exist. LoMs aren't even a year old anyway.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Well, there's not much point in making it smaller if combat is still the only way to level. 1/2 speed, maybe, but again there's an XP per unit time factor that has to be taken into account. It's not just pure XP gain per unit built, time's important.
The whole point is we don't want combat to be the only way to level. Most people think that's wrong, hence this poll. I completely agree it should take XP/time and XP/activity into account and also that it should still be less effective than combat-XP because there is no risk involved and because cash can be turned into XP using aggresive tradeskilling.
Originally posted by IceStorm
By droning then LoMing, you lose a few top levels of INT and their corresponding INT pts.It's a sacrifice as once you lose your INT levels, you can't easily get them back. The price you pay for LoMing is the pain of gaining the last few levels back.
However, if you tradeskill, then LoM to combat, you gain those levels back very quickly due to the inherent XP gain associated with combat. To gain the last few INT or DEX levels with combat, especially in team, should take far less time than gaining them back via tradeskills.
Combat then LoMing is the lesser of the two powerleveling evils right now, it seems, as it's more painful to do from an XP perspective. It's not perfect, but nothing in this game is.
Actually there's no need to regain them from tradeskilling at all - you cap without being a pure droner in the first place then you continue levelling as you LoM to maintain cap. You never need to drop a level at all.
@gort -
Knowing about computer games means you have "no life"?
Talking about computer games means you have "no life"?
Finding humour in silly things in games means you have "no life"?
You'd better buy a coffin then as you seem to have just made a joke about a discussion about a computer game on a computer game forum you post to 12 times a day.:lol:
Show me these people. I just checked 10 OPs - no tradeskillers anywhere
Unfortunately, if I did that I'd be painting a target on clans/people. As I said, this point is moot for argument. It's too difficult to prove/disprove.
True combat rank is more adjustable but the tail-off looks the same to me.
Well, no, it isn't the same. You kill a Warbot, it's dead, you get XP and loot from the kill. You build a weapon with a low skill level, it's a crappy weapon and won't sell for much to vendors (w/out barter, one can sell a quality capped weapon for 20 to 40% more than its chemical production cost). By the time you hit the quality cap for a weapon, the XP gain from building said weapon is insignificant in comparison to the XP gains from killing 80/80 and up mobs. The tail-off is much more pronounced in tradeskills because to be successfuly at tradeskills requires a level of skill that then ends up negating the XP gains for that skill, whereas being successful at PvM does not do so anywhere near as rapidly.
Again - this is your choice and your playstyle
My "choice and playstyle" has me sitting on 15 million NC, over a dozen rare CPUs (not MC5), and 15 level 3 apartments full of built weapons, parts, level 3 implants, keys, BPs for a vast majority of the buildable items in the game, 50 to 60 sets of Spy/PE/Monk Power Armor, ammo, tools, and enough rareparts to build several RoG, Redemer, and HL rifles.
Success in NC is not dictated by being "uber". There are other things one can offer, like build runs to get five-slot weapons (and I'm not talking about wussy 10 or 20 unit runs, I'm talking 60 to 120 unit runs) and inexpensive level 1/2 implant selections. I get paid quite well when someone comes to me looking for five or six level 2 imps and I can build them all. One-stop shopping makes people almost fall over when they find out it's available - research and construct? Whiodathunkit?
I'm not saying everyone should diversify and become a jack of all trades. I am saying I don't see many people trying it. Maybe if they did they'd realize this "uber" tradeskill BS is exactly that - BS.
Again with this perceived trend that really isn't there.
How isn't it there? The patch notes and beta changes show it's there.
At the end of B4 and even into the start of retail almost everyone had some form of tradeskill
The ability to have a tradeskill and still cap up to a certain weapon type still exists and has been made easier by the tradeskill perks that have been added in beta and retail.
Since then ALL skills - combat and trade have become more demanding, not less.
I don't believe this to be true. Tradeskill bonuses hve received a major boost - PPU booster spells, op bonuses for the unclanned, imp tweaks, and gloves all work together to take much of the load off of tradeskill point expenditure. At the start of retail we had none of these - no PPU booster spells (added in 160, Nov 22, ten days after Pluto, the last retail server, went live), no imp tweaks, no unclanned bonuses, no gloves. What we had pre-retail was the construction quality cap, which was not in earlier betas.
Weapon damage/range restrictions were lifted in 163 on Dec 11, 2002. That's the patch that started to define what KK views each class's role as.
Other than Patch 163, I've seen no changes to weapons that make them more difficult to use. In fact, with the introduction of the 120 stat Epic weapons that repair to full condition, hunting's been made even easier.
You can argue how representative the sample is
It's only representative of the few that post and read the forums. The "vocal minority", as it were.
This again relies on the presence of all these mysterious invisible tradeskillers out in the wastes with their army of invisible monks buffing them.
You don't need a PPU with you if you're doing 8 minutes worth of work at an op. You don't even need a PPU if you elect to have only one tradeskill as the self-buffs, imps, op bonuses, and gloves give a significant boost to skills on their own. My point with the PPU is that it's possible, especially in an organized clan, to have a tradeskill and still PvP.
That's what we are asking them to change. You stated before that the gradient changes for tradeskills - I'm certain that's not the case.
Answered above.
1) Rare failure rates and destruction - increased
E part failure? I'm finding, for the past 100 or so parts I've researched over the past month, that I break one E or T out of every 20 to 30 parts. I dramatically reduce my failure rate if I only try the parts twice during a research session - I come back to the op later to research them once I have another pile. I don't fail L's as I'm over 140 rsch when at an op.
2) Rare drop-rates - decreased meaning getting it right is more important
The drop in rarepart drop rate has been somewhat reversed. Getting parts is not as hard as it was during mid-year. And reducing the rarepart drop rate puts more emphasis on comnbat - kill it faster to get more parts over time.
3) Higher TL weapons - increases to ALL needs not just combat
Higher TL weapons only increases need for higher construction levels, but that's only if you believe the constructor hype about requiring high skill to get slots/high stats. The L/T/E parts are the same difficulty to research regardless of weapon type. And don't forget that we've got gloves, op bonuses, PPU booster spells and tweaked chips.
At retail start, all constructors had was the SS CPU (+10) and the gimped Cst chips (+3/+5/+8), and ops (+50 or none, no gradient). That meant a max of +76 cst in addition to base skill.
Now, we have gloves (+15), ungimped Cst chips (+5/+10+15), PPU booster (+5/+10/+20), Hawkings CPU (+10), and gradiated op bonuses. If you're in a clan and you want to be a constructor, you can easily hit 200 cst with only 80 native skill points (+50 from op, +20 from PPU (you need a poker to swap out imps), +40 from imps (no Hawkings, I'm realistic) and +15 from a glove. If you're keeping score, that's +125 const without a single trainpoint expended (+130 with a Hawkings). Even if you only self-boost, you can get to +110 const. (+115 with a Hawkings).
That's a 54 level increase over start of retail, and we know that those over-100 levels really count, in all subskills, at least to a cetain point.
At start of retail, if you wanted a level 200 constructor you had to burn 295 trainpoints of INT to get to level 124. Now? You need only burn 90 w/ a Hawkings (70 base), 100 without (75 base). That's a 195 to 205 trainpoint difference, trainpoints that can now be put into Weapon Lore.
5) Slotties nerfed on rares - rare slottage is still a mystery and people will do all they can to improve the odds.
Except there's no proof that "doing all they can" improves the odds. :-) One should look through threads on the construction issue. Some think the sweet spot for regular slotting is still in the 130's, and some say for rares it's not high as you can go, but somewhere lower.
You know what I think? It's all random. :-)
Fair enough but why do you feel that others shouldn't be allowed to play their way?
I don't. I've been saying that KK seems to think that based on all the evidence, the extremely high dropoff in XP gain relative to combat being the strongest evidence to date. All the perk changes enabling dual tradeskill/combat are supporting evidence. Keep in mind that I'm arguging why things are the way they are and pointing out that this lack of tradeskill XP can be seen as part of a general trend to emphasize combat over tradeskills. I'm not arguing a personal opinion beyong that. Whether or not it's "right" to force combat on people is not something I'm debating. I'm debating that this is direction NC has been going for quite some time now.
Personally, if I got half the XP I get from hunting warbots in the same timeperiod researching and building TL-80ish items, I'd be happier. But I'm not oblivious to the changes that KK's made around me. They seem to want me to hunt, so I hunt. I like getting rareparts anyway, as well as selling boosters for cheap to a clan I think is worth it.
Then remove the DEX effect on CST when you remove the levelling advantage - simple.
No, not simple. You've now put construction back in the hands of the Monks. If you think it's monk-o-cron now, wait until those uber PPUs take and hold ops, self-buff, and crank their Cst skill over 200 with ease... Is that what you want? Is that what KK wants? I could've sworn the general forum trend was to bash the PPU...
More of the mythical "two year trend".... I've shown proof it exists. It's not "mythical".
KK have reversed/changed many real things in those two years, I'm sure they can ignore something that doesn't even exist.Or they're not changing tradeskill XP because this is how they want it to be.
LoMs aren't even a year old anyway.
LoMs are over a year old. They're referenced in 163's patch notes, and 163 was added on December 11, 2002.
The whole point is we don't want combat to be the only way to level. Most people think that's wrong, hence this poll.
Again, this poll is not representative of the general population. It's a sample of forumgoers, and as such it's pretty light - 56 people? Out of a subscriber base over 10,000? Pardon me if I don't think that's representative. :-)
And, technically, combat isn't the only way to level. You can level fairly well up to the mid-40's in your mainstats doing tradeskills. You can also grind out very hard research missions. You just can't cap your mainstats easily with tradeskills alone. At some point one has to leave the safety of safezones and go hunt in the wastes.
Actually there's no need to regain them from tradeskilling at all - you cap without being a pure droner in the first place then you continue levelling as you LoM to maintain cap
I guess the XP gain rate for snake caving far outstrips that of rifles/pistols, then. There's no way I'd want to have to keep my XP at overcap while LoMing out all 120 or so base levels of RC I have. Maybe they should nerf Drone XP. :-)
I'll skip the points I've already answered to save time and typing. If you think I've missed one read above for why.
Originally posted by IceStorm
The ability to have a tradeskill and still cap up to a certain weapon type still exists and has been made easier by the tradeskill perks that have been added in beta and retail.
.....
I don't believe this to be true. Tradeskill bonuses hve received a major boost - PPU booster spells, op bonuses for the unclanned, imp tweaks, and gloves all work together to take much of the load off of tradeskill point expenditure. At the start of retail we had none of these - no PPU booster spells (added in 160, Nov 22, ten days after Pluto, the last retail server, went live), no imp tweaks, no unclanned bonuses, no gloves. What we had pre-retail was the construction quality cap, which was not in earlier betas.
Weapon damage/range restrictions were lifted in 163 on Dec 11, 2002. That's the patch that started to define what KK views each class's role as.
Other than Patch 163, I've seen no changes to weapons that make them more difficult to use. In fact, with the introduction of the 120 stat Epic weapons that repair to full condition, hunting's been made even easier.
They've also added or improved numerous Combat imps, buffs, boni, etc. Again - both sides of the coin have benefited here.
Originally posted by IceStorm
E part failure? I'm finding, for the past 100 or so parts I've researched over the past month, that I break one E or T out of every 20 to 30 parts. I dramatically reduce my failure rate if I only try the parts twice during a research session - I come back to the op later to research them once I have another pile. I don't fail L's as I'm over 140 rsch when at an op.
Some of those Es are MC5s - I wouldn't take those odds.
Originally posted by IceStorm
The drop in rarepart drop rate has been somewhat reversed. Getting parts is not as hard as it was during mid-year. And reducing the rarepart drop rate puts more emphasis on comnbat - kill it faster to get more parts over time.
Interesting interpretation. You have to admit that's really pushing the point beyond belief though.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Higher TL weapons only increases need for higher construction levels,
........
trainpoints that can now be put into Weapon Lore.
You've now added the PPUs back in. You're also still assuming OP ownership and usage - far from reasonable assumptions for most tradeskillers.
You can apply very similar math to the extra bonuses to combat - there are combat buffs, combat MC5s, PA and improved/new CPUs. Combat skills have in many cases gained more than tradeskills I think you'll find, expecially if you take both offence and defense into account.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Except there's no proof that "doing all they can" improves the odds. :-) One should look through threads on the construction issue. Some think the sweet spot for regular slotting is still in the 130's, and some say for rares it's not high as you can go, but somewhere lower.
You know what I think? It's all random. :-)
I know all that but it remains true that people will use a higher level CST if one is there. Not all business is won on specifications, a bit of PR/BS can make all the difference. If people want to pay me more to have a higher skill I'll take their money and hope one day KK make it actually matter.
Originally posted by IceStorm
No, not simple. You've now put construction back in the hands of the Monks. If you think it's monk-o-cron now, wait until those uber PPUs take and hold ops, self-buff, and crank their Cst skill over 200 with ease... Is that what you want? Is that what KK wants? I could've sworn the general forum trend was to bash the PPU...
I've seen plenty of poking monkeys around. If fact every time I've looked for a 115 poke lately it's been a monk that's provided it. I haven't seen a single complaint about this in-game or on the forums. I think the monk-o-cron thing has nothing to do with their potential as tradeskillers.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I guess the XP gain rate for snake caving far outstrips that of rifles/pistols, then. There's no way I'd want to have to keep my XP at overcap while LoMing out all 120 or so base levels of RC I have. Maybe they should nerf Drone XP. :-)
You can do the same with rifles or pistols in other caves. You just have to apply some thought to it. You certainly wouldn't dream of dioing the reverse to turn tradeskills into combat ones.
If you don't like the sample basis for this poll please suggest another one. The proportion sampled is reasonable - what %age of a population do you think samples usually comprise? I'd say these forums contain a good cross-section of opinions on tradeskilling - there may be evidence of bias in other areas but I've seen none in this regard. Please post examples if you believe there is a bias.
Psycho Killa
22-12-03, 06:17
All I have to say is if you think that this poll is not what this poll isnt correct you seriously have to be on crack. This is a general community talk where anyone who plays neocron can come and chat. Im sure this includes both people who like to tradeskill and fight alike. Now if this was the Neocron traders only forum I could see your point but its not.
Anyways if this poll doesnt represent the community then where the hell are all the people that think tradeskill xp is fine? Are they hiding under a fucking rock?
I think the arguement that KK wants NC to be a combat oriented game and is therefore reducing tradeskilling to a secondary only skill is ridiculous. Even if recent patches have put more of an emphasis on combat skills that only shows that the people who choose a combat style of play have been more vocal with their concerns. Tradeskillers represent a minority in NC. If they want to affect the game they will have to be more vocal. Polls like this one are a great way to demonstrate their concerns.
While this may be KK's game, without the players they will go out of business and not have a game anymore. If the players want a change to tradeskilling KK will listen or they will risk losing some of their paying customers.
They've also added or improved numerous Combat imps, buffs, boni, etc. Again - both sides of the coin have benefited here.
Nowhere near as much. From retail to now I believe the only combat imps that have been boosted are the Berserk and the addition of the Droner imps, and one can argue that Droners are still on the "broken" list at KK. Rifle and Pistol have remained the same except for either the SCE or TC imps (adjusted bonus type, not strength). Meanwhile the Weapon Lore requirement and Damage Cap increase shows an emphasis on combat that far outstrips what even a Boost 3 can give. Armor does give combat bonuses to all classes now, but it's not a +54 increase, certaintly not for rifles. More like +30-ish with a boost 3, assuming you can get a Boost 3.
The only major combat boost imp to be put into the game is the Kami chips, which are quite rare. I wouldn't consider them easily obtained, not lke a fractional or full op bonus is, at least.
By the way, factoring in buffs means you're agreeing with the PPU Const Boost 3, unless your arguing that people only come together for buffs in combat. If that's true, then that just downplays the role of the tradeskiller even more - they're just gimps who sit in a corner with no friends. :-)
Some of those Es are MC5s - I wouldn't take those odds.
Well, it's an E or a T I lose and I don't research MC5 parts.
I'd also argue that if someone's hunting in MC5 they've got a whole clan backing them up. Many big clans own tradeskill chars spec'ed just for specific tradeskills. But that's clans. The vast majority don't seem to have MC5 CPUs. For those people, getting E's isn't that hard. Whack warbots, hack, repeat.
You have to admit that's really pushing the point beyond belief though.
Why? If you want rares you need rareparts. Instead of people sitting on their asses in PL1 all day they're now all out hunting for parts. Wouldn't you consider that a move intended to get people out into the wastes and involved in PvM? There's a valid reason to PvM well beyond that of just leveling now.
You can apply very similar math to the extra bonuses to combat - there are combat buffs, combat MC5s, PA and improved/new CPUs. Combat skills have in many cases gained more than tradeskills I think you'll find, expecially if you take both offence and defense into account.
I do not consider CON at all. CON's subskills have no impact on damage dealt. They only influence survivability. Having a good or bad CON setup doesn't impact tradeskills at all.
There have been no massive tweaks of any combat CPUs beyond the fixes given to droners to bring them in line and the addition of PA for all classes. Other than that, we haven't seen new combat imps to parallel the machina gloves, no +5/+10/+15 changes like the Adv Nerves 3 and Cst CPUs (Dist Weap and Exp Balistic are still at their pre-retail settings), and while Fortresses do give fractional combat bonuses. I would venture to guess that those bonuses are deactivated if they're seen to be helping the enemy, be they faction allied, neutral, or hostile. MC5 CPUs went in, but they help on both sides.
In short, tradeskill caps were added in beta and then a whole bunch of bonuses were added. Both served to reduce the trainpoints required for good tradeskilling. In retail, damage caps were removed and Weapon Lore added as a requirement for ranged weapons. Bonuses weren't tweaked like the generally available tradeskill imps were. The cap removal and Weapon Lore requirement dramatically increased the number of trainpoints needed to "cap" weapons. The bonuses and new imps added don't do nearly enough to offset this huge increase in trainpoint drain. Those imps that do serve to offset the trainpoint drain come with their own extreme drawbacks and are extremely rare, unlike Machina gloves which are fairly easy to get (I had a full set within three days of them going onto retail and had either parts for more or spares built in another week).
I've seen plenty of poking monkeys around. If fact every time I've looked for a 115 poke lately it's been a monk that's provided itI think you've missed the point - if you remove DEX as a factor in construction, you'll end up with monks all going nuts building - between their self-poking, self buffing, and their ops, you'll have removed a need for Spies. With DEX being a major factor in construction (25% worth), spies are looked upon as the constructor class. Remove DEX as a requirement and Spies become obsolete - who needs a Spy when one can be a PPU and do it all?
You've now added the PPUs back in.
I did say +110 const without a PPU, using a boost 1 self-boost but having a clan op bonus.
You're also still assuming OP ownership and usage - far from reasonable assumptions for most tradeskillers.
Op bonuses are available to most. It may not be +50, but most, if they're patient and check the worldmap, can get a +25 from friendly ops. It is very reasonable to factor in op bonuses.
Realistically, at the start of retail, you needed to be in a clan to get an op bonus. It was all or nothing. Now, you don't. I don't know when you play, but on Pluto I can normally find a Lab or Factory if I check during a non-combat period (early in the week, wee hours of the morning). Let's run the numbers again, realistically:
Start of retail: +10 from SS, +16 from Cst 1/2/3, no Op bonus, so +26 total.
Now: +10 from SS, +30 from Cst 1/2/3, +15 from Machina, +5 from self-buf, +25 from Op bonus, so +85 total.
That's a +59 point increase from retail to now. Even a Kamakazi CPU, which gives +40 in a combat mainskill (but requires removal of a combat boosting imp, so it's less than +40), doesn't bring one up to the level of boost that has been given to tradeskillers in terms of trainpoint requirement reduction.
You can do the same with rifles or pistols in other caves. You just have to apply some thought to it.
Pistols (other than that rocket pistol) and rifles are not AoE, whereas rocket drones are. My understanding was that it was the AoE and multiple targets (snakes) dying that gave the extreme XP gains of droners. Because the drones don't suffer poison damage, the droners can hang out in the snake caves for extended periods of time. Since there are no AoE rifles or pistols, I don't see how a rifle/pistol player would get the same XP gains in the snake caves as a droner. If there's an AoE exploit for single-target weapons, it'll get fixed eventually...
You certainly wouldn't dream of dioing the reverse to turn tradeskills into combat ones.
Well, with the reverse you don't need to. A few nights of PPU-backed caving should be enough to restore all the points lost to LoMing.
I'd say these forums contain a good cross-section of opinions on tradeskilling - there may be evidence of bias in other areas but I've seen none in this regard.
You have 50-odd respondants. MJS says the subscriber base is five figures, so at least 10,000. To get a proper gauge, you'd have to ask the whole subscriber base (as in contact them in a way that all subscribers will see - not all read the forums) and then get not only tradeskillers, but non-tradeskillers, to reply. If all you do is get results from the choir, your poll will always be biased in favor of tradeskillers, save the few of us who saw the writing on the wall a long time ago and took up a combat specialization.
All I have to say is if you think that this poll is not what this poll isnt correct you seriously have to be on crack
I see 56 respondants. 53 yes, 3 no. Last I checked, there were well over 56 players on NC's servers in total and over 18,000 registerd forum members... How you see 56 as a representative number, I don't understand.
Anyways if this poll doesnt represent the community then where the hell are all the people that think tradeskill xp is fine? Are they hiding under a fucking rock?
Probably, while their drones go and collect XP. Or they don't care. Notice there's no "don't care" option?
Psycho Killa
22-12-03, 07:38
Thats complete and total bullshit. I cant even believe u would say something so moronic. Do you think when people are voting for say president of the united states and the exit polls show 70 percent voting for one guy... then low and behold the official election is damn near close to 70 give a take a few percent. Now when they had the exit polls did they ask every single person. NO they asked a few hundred or a few thousand at most out of the millions that voted.
Not to mention nowhere near 18,000 different people have been anywhere near this forum in ages. At most I would say a few hundred people will look at this forum over the week. Not to mention i never see the total server populations over 1000. Now lets just say 10,000 people play during the week Now you think the other 9000 people really are going to say that xp is fine now while the people who voted are all crackheads who dont know what theyre talking about?
Do you think when people are voting for say president of the united states and the exit polls show 70 percent voting for one guy
You're using a very bad example given that the President of the United States is chosen by the Electoral College, not a popular vote.
If you want more information on presidental elections, I suggest you ask Al Gore. He knows all about how warped the system is. :-)
As to how representative the poll is, I see over 18,000 members registered on the forums. That means 18,000 accounts (give or take 100 accounts for administrative purposes). You've got a poll with 56 respondants. Wake me up when we hit 1% of the registered members. :-)
Psycho Killa
22-12-03, 07:45
Your completely avoiding the point.
I completely and am fully aware of how the president is chosen. I was obviously reffering to the popular vote.
You may not like the example but my point is still there. Never when they have polls conducted are they able to get to every single person.
Um.... Theres tons of people who registered a forum account just to ask one or two questions about the game. Some people have changed there forum accoutn name to another one by creating a new account. Many people have left the community just look at the server population.
18,000 is nowhere near an accurate number.
I was obviously reffering to the popular vote.
I take it back. Yours is a good example. How a few people feel in a poll is inconsequential compared to the apathy of the masses and KK's will. Unless you get a substantial number of people to ask KK to change, I doubt they will change their apparently pro-combat stance.
Ooh! 57! someone new voted! :-)
Psycho Killa
22-12-03, 07:52
Its obvious kk prefers you to level off of combat over tradeskilling. Which i feel is apropriate since it is safe but..
The fact of the matter is if you got double the xp that you currently do for each build you would still be significantly slower then leveling off of combat.
I didnt see anyone ask for tradeskilling xp to be the most uber thing ever. All I ask is you throw tradeskillers a bone so they dont feel like there efforts are worthless.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Nowhere near as much. From retail to now I believe the only combat imps that have been boosted are the Berserk and the addition of the Droner imps, and one can argue that Droners are still on the "broken" list at KK. Rifle and Pistol have remained the same except for either the SCE or TC imps (adjusted bonus type, not strength). Meanwhile the Weapon Lore requirement and Damage Cap increase shows an emphasis on combat that far outstrips what even a Boost 3 can give. Armor does give combat bonuses to all classes now, but it's not a +54 increase, certaintly not for rifles. More like +30-ish with a boost 3, assuming you can get a Boost 3.
The only major combat boost imp to be put into the game is the Kami chips, which are quite rare. I wouldn't consider them easily obtained, not lke a fractional or full op bonus is, at least.
You gladly assume a lot for tradeskill boni but you don't want to assume a combat char won't have a PPU mate these days?
Rifle PA3 + L3 Buff + SA =
41 more R-C
21 more T-C
22 more WEP
Then you have the armour benefits. Throw in a PP resistor and you've got another
15 more FIR
15 more ENR
38 more FOR
136 more XRY
and 6 more DEX
That's all new stuff and a massive boost to a combat spy. No kami chips used.
Originally posted by IceStorm
By the way, factoring in buffs means you're agreeing with the PPU Const Boost 3, unless your arguing that people only come together for buffs in combat. If that's true, then that just downplays the role of the tradeskiller even more - they're just gimps who sit in a corner with no friends. :-)
PPUs can only level by teaming with PvM teams - another problem entirely. If you were a PPU what would you do?
Originally posted by IceStorm
Why? If you want rares you need rareparts. Instead of people sitting on their asses in PL1 all day they're now all out hunting for parts. Wouldn't you consider that a move intended to get people out into the wastes and involved in PvM? There's a valid reason to PvM well beyond that of just leveling now.
Most mobs have got harder since retail started. Warbots in particular got a large HP and DMG boost.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I do not consider CON at all.
You can't just ignore 50% of a combat setup. That's just invalid.
Originally posted by IceStorm
I think you've missed the point - if you remove DEX as a factor in construction, you'll end up with monks all going nuts building - between their self-poking, self buffing, and their ops, you'll have removed a need for Spies. With DEX being a major factor in construction (25% worth), spies are looked upon as the constructor class. Remove DEX as a requirement and Spies become obsolete - who needs a Spy when one can be a PPU and do it all?
Because a PPU can't do all that - he can at best get an INT skill to 100 without gimping himself. That's great for poking but useless for CST or RES. He certainly can't IMP/CST/PPU. Removing the DEX effect is more likely to give PEs a chance in tradeskills. That seems like a good thing to me, PEs are long overdue for a rethink.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Op bonuses are available to most. It may not be +50, but most, if they're patient and check the worldmap, can get a +25 from friendly ops. It is very reasonable to factor in op bonuses.
OP bonuses are based on GR settings. I don't believe many people want to sit around for hours till an Allied (neutral is no good) faction decides to let people into an appropriate OP.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Realistically.......
I've already posted some FAR more "realistic" stats above.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Pistols and rifles are not AoE, whereas rocket drones are. My understanding was that it was the AoE and multiple targets (snakes) dying that gave the extreme XP gains of droners. Because the drones don't suffer poison damage, the droners can hang out in the snake caves for extended periods of time. Since there are no AoE rifles or pistols, I don't see how a rifle/pistol player would get the same XP gains in the snake caves as a droner. If there's an AoE exploit for single-target weapons, it'll get fixed eventually...
That's why people use drones. FYI - there are AoE pistols and they are very nice for levelling. Also - some people claim they can level as fast with rifles in the right areas as they can with drones in the Graves. I'm not sure about that but it's not relevant.
Originally posted by IceStorm
You have 50-odd respondants. MJS says the subscriber base is five figures, so at least 10,000. To get a proper gauge, you'd have to ask the whole subscriber base (as in contact them in a way that all subscribers will see - not all read the forums) and then get not only tradeskillers, but non-tradeskillers, to reply. If all you do is get results from the choir, your poll will always be biased in favor of tradeskillers, save the few of us who saw the writing on the wall a long time ago and took up a combat specialization.
Sampling is a standard procedure in the real world you know. Samples are very rarely anywhere near 1% of the total group. 50 of 10,000 is half a percent assuming no dormants, no multiple accounts etc. It's a perfectly valid test.
You are saying that only 5.36% of this forum are combat-oriented players. :lol:
All I ask is you throw tradeskillers a bone so they dont feel like there efforts are worthless.
But the poll asks to "fix" the situation, not throw a bone.
All I'm doing is pointing out a general trend that I've seen over the past two or so years. Wouldn't it be better to join the hunting masses than be part of the dejected few, or advise people to beat the system by capping then LoMing and living without a few top levels in DEX/INT mainstats?
You gladly assume a lot for tradeskill boni but you don't want to assume a combat char won't have a PPU mate these days?
Rifle PA3 + L3 Buff + SA =
41 more R-C
21 more T-C
22 more WEP
Except that it isn't a +41 boost to RC or +22 to Weap:
Pre PA/Boost:
SF (+5 RC, +5 TC, +10 Wep +5 DEX), Dist 3 (+15 Weap, +8 RC, +8 TC), Dist 2 (+10 Weap, +5 RC, +5 TC), Exp Balistic 3 (+15 Weap, +5 RC, +3 DEX), RCE3 (+10 Weap, +15 RC), Dex booster 3 (+5 DEX) , so +38 RC, +60 Weap, +18 TC, +13 DEX
Post PA/Boost:
SF (+5 RC, +5 TC, +10 Weap, +5 DEX), Dist 3 (+15 Weap, +8 RC, +8 TC), SA (+5 RC, +5 TC, +10 Weap, +6 DEX), Exp Balistic 3 (+15 Weap, +5 RC, +3 DEX), RCE3 (+10 Weap, +15 RC), Dex booster 3 (+5 DEX), PA3 (+ 16 RC, +6 DEX), Rifle Boost 3 (+20 RC, +16 TC, +12 Weap) , so +74 RC, +72 Weap, +34 TC and +25 DEX.
The RC boost is +36, not +41. The Weapon Lore boost is only +12, The TC boost is only +16, and the DEX boost is 13. But don't forget - your post-168 world requires far more RC and Weapon Lore than before, as well as more DEX for those higher level rifles. The post-163 world made no such demainds on the researchers and constructors.
You free up more DEX points with the new imps and armor, but they have to be put back into RC anyway. The INT points freed up are almost insignificant. But the INT points freed up by using imps/ops/boosts for tradeskills? 59? That's 11 levels of over-100 Weapon Lore, realistically.
Defense, again, I'm not concerned with. CON is CON and doesn't impact tradeskills one way or the other. It does help combat, but that just reinforces the combat angle. :-)
PPUs can only level by teaming with PvM teams - another problem entirely. If you were a PPU what would you do?
My PPU? I'm going to level it with combat. ;-) I can't team/assist others anyway.
Most mobs have got harder since retail started. Warbots in particular got a large HP and DMG boost.
Yes, but I've noticed with HP/Armor boosts come gains in XP, significant enough to make the boost in HP/Armor acceptable. Worms were the mob I noticed it on to start with - I wasn't working over Warbots until after that change went in.
Because a PPU can't do all that - he can at best get an INT skill to 100 without gimping himself. That's great for poking but useless for CST or RES.
INT impacts research sucess rate, so I wouldn't say that they can't do Research. With a Psi Core, SS, Adv Nerves 3, SCE1, Const Boost 3, Glove, and a +25 op bonus, a PPU could gain +16 INT and +81 research. I wouldn't call that too shabby. A similar setup works for construction, but would require some poking or ready access to a poker. Remove the DEX benefits and a PPU can do both.
Removing the DEX effect is more likely to give PEs a chance in tradeskills. That seems like a good thing to me, PEs are long overdue for a rethink.
Perhaps, but it'll still impact the PPU world and make the Spy less needed.
I don't believe many people want to sit around for hours till an Allied (neutral is no good) faction decides to let people into an appropriate OP.
I don't sit around for hours. Normally one or more are available to me since I'm N.E.X.T. If there aren't any open I toss the parts back in my cabinets and go hunt some more. Normally GRs are locked down for fights on Thursday and Friday nights, but are released and available Sunday through Thursday morning, at least on Pluto...
I've already posted some FAR more "realistic" stats above.
You included an SA. I've got a better chance of finding an open Op than an SA. I think most people have a better chance of finding an open Op than an SA. :-)
FYI - there are AoE pistols and they are very nice for levelling
I updated my post to reflect the rocket pistol.
Samples are very rarely anywhere near 1% of the total group. 50 of 10,000 is half a percent assuming no dormants, no multiple accounts etc. It's a perfectly valid test.Except that the forum shows over 18,000 registered. Assume that you chuck all over 18,000 for admin purposes (mods, other accounts) and the playerbase is at least 18,000, not 10,000.
You are saying that only 5.36% of this forum are combat-oriented players.
Well, you are missing a "don't care/not tradeskiller" option...
Psycho Killa
22-12-03, 08:07
I understand what your saying. Even though you dont need to ever get a single point of xp by tradeskilling to be the best it still would be nice to see that your work is actualy being rewarded. I realize you can make cash with your tradeskiller and such but it really isnt to much to ask for them to get a decent amount of xp? Rather then saying go fuckurself and level like everyone else u freak!
I took a tradeskiller from 90 base INT to 100 purely from researching....yes, it took an insane amount of time. DEX is nearly impossible to level through tradeskilling. I think repairing should give a great deal more DEX experience than it does now.
DEX is nearly impossible to level through tradeskilling.
I have noticed that I seem to get INT XP for lower items with a research skill equivalent to that of my construction skill when building items of the same TL - i.e. research a TL 50 item while 135 Rsch, get INT XP, but build said item while 132 const, get no XP. That I agree should be looked into, or at least explained somehow, perhaps as a collorary to the Skills Guide.
You guys just dont realize how hard core IceStorm is. I bet he uses all store bought poor weapons cause he cant be assed to help someone participate in non-combat in this game.. which of course... is combat oriented.
He doesnt use imps, he uses store bought weapons. That way, no one has to be a carebear and build, poke, or research on his behalf.
You da man IceStorm. :rolleyes:
I just can't get past the huge gaping hole in IceStorm's argument.
So far you've said that we should all create hybrid characters that both fight and tradeskill. I've read all of your arguments and you do make some good points. I may even consider testing out a jack of all trades character someday.
But, you've also said that you don't research your own MC5 chips because its too risky. You don't construct your own rares because you probably won't get slots or good stats. You did say that if someone is hunting for MC5 chips they are most likely backed by a clan and therefore could rely on the clans pure researcher to safely ID the chips. I ask you, how is that pure researcher supposed to get his/her research high enough? They can't level by tradeskilling (that's why we're all in this thread in the first place) and they can't combat then LOM because that would mean they are taking advantage of a hole in KKs design. Even your PPU has to combat to level which completely goes against the idea of being passive. It is obvious that there is a flaw in the experience system of this game. There is no reward for playing passive characters (PPU and Tradeskillers) even though KK has made it clear that they are an integral part of the game.
This poll is yet another attempt for the people affected by this imbalance to make KK hear their concerns. PPUs have threads everyday talking about how they can't level without teaming and can't complete epics where they have to kill. Its about time that tradeskillers spoke up and got someone to listen to their problems.
Finally, IceStorm why are you fighting this idea so much? How would increasing the experience that tradeskilling gives hurt you in any way? If anything it would just help you become a better fighter by giving you a bit more XP while you ID and build your weapons.
Isn't the research equation something amazingly simple? You know, like 2x the TL = no failure?
Because my research bitch had no noticeable change in his success and failures (no failures on L and T parts whilst only a few failures with E's) with 201 research whilst having a Kami in.
:confused:
I ask you, how is that pure researcher supposed to get his/her research high enough
I'm willing to bet this will be stated: "Cap your dude with combat than LoM".
And no, I don't agree with that particular comment one bit.
I've researched over 1500 techs over the past week. And for some odd reason, I haven't gotten a single gain. I don't care that it's been 1500 parts, I care about the fact that I spent that much time doing something and didn't get anything to show for it.
Frankly, I say either up the exp, or at least lower the research time to be more fitting with the small xp gains.
Originally posted by Marx
I'm willing to bet this will be stated: "Cap your dude with combat than LoM".
And no, I don't agree with that particular comment one bit.
My point is that capping based on combat then LoMing is just a way around the problems. It only serves to highlight the fact that a problem exists and needs to be addressed.
IMHO 1500 parts deserves a big reward (I'm sure you we can all agree that none of us would take a job IRL that required us to work for a week and gave us nothing in return).
Originally posted by Myrlin
My point is that capping based on combat then LoMing is just a way around the problems. It only serves to highlight the fact that a problem exists and needs to be addressed.
http://neocron.jafc.de/images/5stars.gif
Originally posted by Marx
I've researched over 1500 techs over the past week. And for some odd reason, I haven't gotten a single gain. I don't care that it's been 1500 parts, I care about the fact that I spent that much time doing something and didn't get anything to show for it.
There's an old bug/feature [*delete as appropriate] that's been around forever.
Sometimes if you are right on the "boundary" of levelling up, i.e. a few points from the next level, then the XP counter seems to "stick" if you keep using the same skill.
All the logging/zoning/changing tools/ressing different types of item/fiddling with inventory in the world doesn't do shit.
I've never yet heard a convincing explanation of why this happens apart from the usual "No fucker knows, and that includes the code team".
Anyway - niggles with the endless list of stuff that's been broken since the dawn of time aside ...
Getting some XP from a different activity seems to break the deadlock ... e.g. Halt the researching and go and do a mission, or buy something expensive [from a vendor, not a runner], go and whack a rat or two, go hack a box etc etc.
This usually results in the magic "DING !", and you can go back to what you were doing and start getting XP from it again.
N.B. All the missing XP doesn't magically re-appear once you hit the level - if you reach that deadlock point then it's just thrown away until you resolve it.
Remove tools, replace with MANY necessary equipments, thingamajigs and other gimmicks. Make these come in sets, let's call them trader apartements which come in many sizes each with an according price. On the other hand, this would take tradeskillers off the streets... but hey, with the oncoming DoY update, who wants to build or research large quantities of stuff in an anarchy zone? Not me, that's for sure.
Also, if they added some kind of a minigame (and updated hacking) for each skill and each TL class (<30, 30<x<60, >60 for example), it would add a lot of fun into the whole process. As it is now, it would be obscure that doing something that easy (and boring) would give a lot of xp. After this update is done, increase the xp gained from each tradeskill. Besides, I'd like to do an implantation on to the very delicate motoric centre with my hands sweating from anxiety in the implantation mini-game. ;)
Edit: Oh yeah and to the "3 exp to level, which I just don't seem to be getting" -problem: team up with another tradeskiller, that helps a lot. :)
You guys just dont realize how hard core IceStorm is. I bet he uses all store bought poor weapons cause he cant be assed to help someone participate in non-combat in this game
Uh, no. I build all my own gear. The most "hardcore" I got was using my sub-capped weapons to level until I hit quality cap.
I help plenty of people in NC with equipment and weapons, for free. I also stock stuff so when someone is looking for, say, BCA or HIS, I have it...
So far you've said that we should all create hybrid characters that both fight and tradeskill.
No, I haven't said that. I've said that it seems like KK's beeh pushing tradeskills into a secondary role. I never said you couldn't build a pure combat character or a pure tradeskill character, but based on KK's changes they don't intend one to level a character with tradeskills. If one isn't leveling using tradeskills, one is either doing entirely too many missions for one's own good, or one is engaging in PvM combat, ergo, KK appears to be pushing combat as the way to level.
You can become pure tradeskill, but the best way get to that end-game scenario (being a pure-tradeskill character) is to go combat, then LoM to tradeskills. Plenty of people do this already.
Most of what I've been posting is evidence that KK's changes have made it possible to be hybrid tradeskill/combat without seriously impacting one's trainpoint allocations into combat skills. Most people don't seem to want to do the imp swap, though. :-)
But, you've also said that you don't research your own MC5 chips because its too risky
I said I don't research MC5 parts. That's not because it's too risky, it's because I don't have any. :-)
You don't construct your own rares because you probably won't get slots or good stats.I said I don't build rares, as in I don't advertise to build them. I didn't say I don't build my own...
You did say that if someone is hunting for MC5 chips they are most likely backed by a clan and therefore could rely on the clans pure researcher to safely ID the chips. I ask you, how is that pure researcher supposed to get his/her research high enough?An exploit that has since been removed, or the normal Drone-LoM routine.
they can't combat then LOM because that would mean they are taking advantage of a hole in KKs design.
I never said it's wrong to LoM over. I personally think it would be boring to be so limited, but I only play one character on one server.
Even your PPU has to combat to level which completely goes against the idea of being passive.
Well, mine has to because mine is special. :-) My PPU leveling techniques will not be applying to the vast majority of players out there...
It is obvious that there is a flaw in the experience system of this game.
There are plenty of hotspots and coldspots in the game. Making a sweeping change like increasing tradeskill XP to a noticeable level won't fix that, though.
There is no reward for playing passive characters (PPU and Tradeskillers) even though KK has made it clear that they are an integral part of the game.
There isn't? I thought getting one's name on five-slot rares, giving that client an id'ed MC5 part, getting 100k for a TL115 poke, and being able to buff your entire team was a reward in and of itself....
Its about time that tradeskillers spoke up and got someone to listen to their problems.
Well, they did fix construction item movement. That was a pretty big fix. We're not really due for another for at least another six months. :-)
Finally, IceStorm why are you fighting this idea so much? How would increasing the experience that tradeskilling gives hurt you in any way? If anything it would just help you become a better fighter by giving you a bit more XP while you ID and build your weapons.
Well, no, it won't - not if you take the "fix" to its logical conclusion. I'm surprised no one's figured out what the "fix" will end up being...
At any rate, I'm not fighting the suggestion, I'm pointing out a trend that I've seen over the past couple of years. KK has apparently either dug themselves a very big hole, or they want the game to be this way. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. :-)
IceStorm, you strike me as the kind of person that would say "Well the government has raised taxes each year for the last 5 years so that must mean they want higher taxes. I guess I should accept that and offer them some more money".
Stop telling me what you think KK wants. Try expressing what you want. Are you happy with the current system? Are you happy that the only way to make a pure tradeskiller is to cheat the system and fool it into thinking your making a combat character only to LOM at the last minute and change to a tradeskiller when its too late to stop you?
I for one am not happy with the current system. Pure tradeskilling should be a viable way of life in NC. I'm not saying it should be easy, but the current level of XP gimping is overkill and needs to be fixed. I've played a tank to cap and am now playing a poking spy. I've played both sides of the game and I think I prefer tradeskilling to combat. Unfortunately, like tank PA 4, a pure tradeskiller who never wants to combat is simply unattainable.
EDIT: I thought the logical conclusion was to slightly increase the XP given by tradeskills. If you think there is a more logical conclusion please enlighten me to your views on the subject.
Stop telling me what you think KK wantsYou don't have to read what I write...
Try expressing what you want. While some of the changes to the game may be gotten via ideas from others, this one seems to have been "broken" for a very long time, and keeps getting more and more broken over time. Hence the short comments I've made in the past stating that if you don't like the way this particular situation is, you may want to find another game because KK seems to be taking steps to keep things the way they are with respect to this particular issue.
If you think there is a more logical conclusion please enlighten me to your views on the subject.I'm not writing it down or saying it aloud. It's bad enough I thought of it.
Anywho, time for bed. Good luck finding a way to increase tradeskill XP gains without upsetting the applecart.
Originally posted by Marx
Isn't the research equation something amazingly simple? You know, like 2x the TL = no failure?
That's right. You can safely do all rares at 220.
Originally posted by japata
but hey, with the oncoming DoY update, who wants to build or research large quantities of stuff in an anarchy zone? Not me, that's for sure.
Not an issue on the main servers - only for Neptune if/when it comes.
Originally posted by IceStorm
You can become pure tradeskill, but the best way get to that end-game scenario (being a pure-tradeskill character) is to go combat, then LoM to tradeskills. Plenty of people do this already.
This is wholly wrong. If for no other reason than KK have stated many times that LoMs are there to allow people to correct characters, not fully re-skill them. They have tried several times to remove or severely curtail use of LoMs. The only reason the damned things still exist is because KK are constantly tweaking balance issues - issues like the poor gains to tradeskill XP.
Originally posted by IceStorm
There are plenty of hotspots and coldspots in the game. Making a sweeping change like increasing tradeskill XP to a noticeable level won't fix that, thoug.
One bug at a time is fine by me. This one now, another tomorrow, etc. I'd hardly call fixing a mistake that has been annoying the majority of the player-base for nearly a year to be "a sweeping change".
Originally posted by IceStorm
There isn't? I thought getting one's name on five-slot rares, giving that client an id'ed MC5 part, getting 100k for a TL115 poke, and being able to buff your entire team was a reward in and of itself....
By the same logic - Killing a Grim, getting a cash reward and pulling a rare part out of it's corpse should be reward enough in and of itself for a combat char.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Well, they did fix construction item movement. That was a pretty big fix. We're not really due for another for at least another six months. :-)
Nonsense. How many of the last half-dozen patches have affected monks? Why can't tradeskillers get 2 fixes in 10 patches. This is an old mistake, long overdue for a fix.
Originally posted by IceStorm
Well, no, it won't - not if you take the "fix" to its logical conclusion. I'm surprised no one's figured out what the "fix" will end up being...
If you have a really, provable and sound objection : say it. So far you've just offered opinions that have met little to no support. You seem to now be implying some terrible evil awaits us all if this were fixed. If you don't put you theory up for inspection you can't expect it to be taken seriously.
Originally posted by IceStorm
At any rate, I'm not fighting the suggestion, I'm pointing out a trend that I've seen over the past couple of years. KK has apparently either dug themselves a very big hole, or they want the game to be this way. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. :-)
This is the crux of it - you're implying KK want things as they are. If that's the case why are they still constantly fixing and adjusting. There are no shortage of year-old combat bugs you know. You are saying that any bug over a certain age is a deliberate feature.
Well said, Jernau. My sentiments exactly.
Promethius
22-12-03, 20:38
Yea I'm all for more XP from tradeskilling. I think instead of XP going down with increase of rank it should go up.
I remember when i started my researcher it was easy until i hit about 50 or so int.
Also someone mentioned a bubble with the tool in it when they are in process of tradeskilling. Well that got me to think of an emotion if someone is constructing or researching. possibly when csting your avatar pulls out a CSTing device and tinkers around a BP or something.
Though i wouldn't want Tradeskilling XP to out do regular mob XP. Due to the fact that Tradeskillers have the safety of the safe zones and don't really get into any danger tagging GR's.
jj dynomite
22-12-03, 22:49
Using common sense, anybody can tell that a person will "learn" more from creating a blueprint then shooting an animal. That's not to say the person shooting an animal doesn't learn something, but it's just not to the point of someting like brain sugery (poking).
The fix KK should implement should be to make it a lot harder to level INT from PVP. And keep it about the same for tradeskill xp. Why i say this is simple. Everybody's goal is to cap. If you think about it.....how does one "cap" their intelligence? You are constantly learning things until you die. You never finish learning. And since there is currently a max xp you can gain for your INT it should level slower. If there weren't a cap on INT (an idea i don't like) i would boost the amount of tradeskill exp and lower the pvp exp a little.
jj
Nonsense. How many of the last half-dozen patches have affected monks?I was being sarcastic.
Then again, I don't think anything's broken, either.
This is wholly wrong.
Eh, it's still there. It's the only way to do it right now without pulling one's hair out. It's far better than the option I think they're going to go with.
The only reason the damned things still exist is because KK are constantly tweaking balance issues - issues like the poor gains to tradeskill XP.
I use LoMs to tweak my character as it developes. Not all tweaks are related to changes KK makes. Some are misapplied points, tradeoffs made, and bad choices I'm only now getting around to fixing. I've used 20 or so LoMs on my char over the course of its life. If someone wants to go to extremes, they can because the system still allows it. KK makes it difficult, to be sure, but not impossible. The current system does stop reskilling on the fly, which would seem to be what KK wanted to squash, not reskilling/tweaking in general.
'd hardly call fixing a mistake that has been annoying the majority of the player-base for nearly a year to be "a sweeping change".
Well, my assertion has been based on KK's changes, they don't seem to consider it a mistake. Also, you're again assuming that "a majority" of the playerbase finds it to be annoying. I would think a "majority" of the playerbase is combat-oriented.
By the way, even if XP gains are increased a bit, most here seem to feel they shouldn't outstrip combat gains. Those wanting a tradeskill character quickly would still end up going through the combat/LoM grind...
By the same logic - Killing a Grim, getting a cash reward and pulling a rare part out of it's corpse should be reward enough in and of itself for a combat char.
For me it is...
Using common sense, anybody can tell that a person will "learn" more from creating a blueprint then shooting an animal.
Well, this is a game. It's KK's game. They made it like this... They've kept it like this... See where I'm going?
The fix KK should implement should be to make it a lot harder to level INT from PVP.
Um, I don't know how they could make it harder. One doesn't get XP from PvP right now save CON, and the CON is a by-product of taking damage and healing.
If you think about it.....how does one "cap" their intelligence? You are constantly learning things until you die
You're attempting to apply real-world logic to an MMO game. It's not going to work, and your idea is detrimental to all who take an INT-heavy specialization. Why should Tanks and PEs be able to cap DEX/CON if Spies and Monks can't cap INT (well, ok, Monks capping INT is still funny ha ha, but it's possible right now).
and lower the pvp exp a little.
It can't get much lower than 0...
Originally posted by IceStorm
It can't get much lower than 0...
You get gains from PvP.
Since however, mobs last longer than players - a mob makes for more lucrative and sensical gains.
jj dynomite
23-12-03, 09:47
Man,
Ice Storm...you seem very bitter. I was just suggesting some possible fixes. I for 1 do get INT exp from pvp as well as DEX exp also. There is no need to knock every idea you don't like.
I also am not understanding what your reason for all of this negative posting is. Do you just want to argue? I personally like to get input on others' ideas, but i don't talk shit on what others say.
jj
You get gains from PvP.
Since however, mobs last longer than players - a mob makes for more lucrative and sensical gains.
I don't recall PvP generating any XP in the past and I remember people stating it didn't generate XP in the past. When did PvP start generating XP beyond CON?
I for 1 do get INT exp from pvp as well as DEX exp also.
But you want to generate less, but that doesn't matter since mobs generate more base on what Marx says, so I don't get the whole "PvP generate less XP" thing...
I also am not understanding what your reason for all of this negative posting is.Negative how? I'm presenting the flip side of this desire to "fix" the XP gains on tradeskills - that there is nothing "broken" in the first place. I don't consider the current system to be a "negative" one, personally.
I personally like to get input on others' ideas, but i don't talk shit on what others say.It's called debate. I don't believe I've directly attacked any person so far. Attacking ideas is the point of debate, not attacking the actual persons presenting those ideas. If poking holes in people's arguments is being interpreted as "talking shit", then you're taking this personally which doesn't make much sense. I've not insulted you, jernaun, Myrlin, or any others that I can see in this thread (or most, if not all others I post in).
Attacking one's argument is not the same as attacking the person.
I don't recall PvP generating any XP in the past and I remember people stating it didn't generate XP in the past. When did PvP start generating XP beyond CON?
It has ever since I started PvPing heavily.
:wtf:
As I said, the amount gained however is insignificant compared to XP gained via hunting due to rank and health.
Consider that killing most runners would net you the gain of killing the thumb of say, a launcher cyclops.
I asked the PvPers from beta. XP for PvP is apparently something new in retail, although as you say it apparently has little value with respect to leveling.
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