View Full Version : First (good) Ravager on Pluto?
http://www.sig-x.com/x/segafan2k1/RAVAGER.php
Booyah
PS: Props to kweef for the construction and modding. :)
wheres the laser pointer? n00b!
what the fuck, thought it could have a scope o_O
Original monk
19-12-03, 10:10
nice weapon indeed, but stil .. i want a laserpointer on a cursed soul ... like the old days snif, anyone selling a laserd cs on saturn ??
btw vid gamer, is it worth making one ? is it a good weapon overall ? good damage ? good aiming ? is it fun to work with ? is it for OPwars mainly or sniping purposes or is it also effective from close range ? tell :)
Sorin, that's not on me.
I have 220 HC at 125 STR and it's Artifact Capped so that's the best the aiming can be.
I'm still going to use the CS for upclose but this is my replacement for my S.T.O.R.M. Laser and sniping people. :D
I can't believe you can't scope it! A 500m sniper weapon without a scope? Hello McFly!?!:confused:
Shadow Dancer
19-12-03, 10:24
I wonder if tanks will outshine sniper spies..........................
it is a very nice gun, but as said... it needs a laserpointer for UBER GEIL
Originally posted by Original monk
btw vid gamer, is it worth making one ? is it a good weapon overall ? good damage ? good aiming ? is it fun to work with ? is it for OPwars mainly or sniping purposes or is it also effective from close range ? tell :)
Well, I haven't really tested it out yet since I got it made in the middle of the night. :p
But from what other have said it's decent at close range but CS is still better. Good for sniping since it has better range then CS and doesn't miss. A good combo is to pick off people from far away with it and then switch to a CS/Dev.
Original monk
19-12-03, 10:58
ok, sounds a fun weapon to snipe people with, better then my plasmawave in any case :) i need to try it out it seems :)
Originally posted by RayBob
I can't believe you can't scope it! A 500m sniper weapon without a scope? Hello McFly!?!:confused: Phew.
Spies escape a near certain extinction possibility. ;)
nice im gonna get a new 1 my 1 slot is nice but i want better aim. how the hell u get 220 HC yr wearing PA rite. also i think it should be able 2 have a scope coz wen i was sniping with it its almost impossible 2 see the opponent from like 490m, they become a little dot which makes the range pointless if u cant use it.
Originally posted by kurai
Phew.
Spies escape a near certain extinction possibility. ;)
Well they still cant stealth, sniping without stealth? :p
Originally posted by Rade
Well they still cant stealth, sniping without stealth? :p They dont need stealth - there's nothing I can do to a tank (as a spy) that will drop him in two seconds flat.
The converse isn't true.
The good old "no such thing as a free lunch" statement deserves yet another airing.
A spy's penalty for accurate range capability is crap resists/health.
The tank's penalty for accurate range capability with this wepaon is ... err ... umm ... no scope. Yeah. That's a *big* penalty :rolleyes:
Plus the Ravager outdamages any spy weapon except a Disruptor in conjunction with a Kami.
Well - A tank sniping us I would find and kill, and being stealthed
while doing it so he wouldnt know I was there until I started
hitting him. You however get away every single time I pop out
behind your back.
Originally posted by Rade
Well - A tank sniping us I would find and kill, and being stealthed
while doing it so he wouldnt know I was there until I started
hitting him. You however get away every single time I pop out
behind your back. Well, yeah - us spies have no choice but to be twitchy as fuck. And note how much damage I manage to inflict on you before I am forced to bug out. The words "fuck" and "all" would seem appropriate :D
Unfortunately, even with the INQ1 setup I still dont have the luxury of being able to live long enough to take down 70% of reasonable H-C tanks without having to stealth away and heal up for round two (or more).
I'm not saying the INQ1 doesn't help ... my kill rate has definitely gone up due to longer "exposure survivability" time, while my kill/death ratio has stayed about the same, but outranging a tank is still by far the biggest offensive benefit factor.
That's potentially gone away now, so I'm worried :eek:
Anyway - this is all paper speculation for now - I won't make any absolute statements till I've come up against a skilled tankeh with a decent Devourer one on one ;)
It may be a rare but it is still just a plasma wave, can't say I am too concerned personally.
Originally posted by Dont Mess
nice im gonna get a new 1 my 1 slot is nice but i want better aim. how the hell u get 220 HC yr wearing PA rite. also i think it should be able 2 have a scope coz wen i was sniping with it its almost impossible 2 see the opponent from like 490m, they become a little dot which makes the range pointless if u cant use it.
No, don't add a scope! Then I would need to get another one but make it 3 slotted. :D
And to Kurai and Rade, I wouldn't really worry. I doubt you will Tanks main role in OP wars is to snipe with their Ravager's. :lol:
0 Recoil.
Anyone the tank snipes in the open, who aint got stealth, may bite the dust.
I just used my Ravager for the first time a few minutes ago in the Jeriko fight against FF on Pluto.
IMO the gun is great. First the cons of the gun which is pretty simple. The gun is not really good up close. A Devourer/CS has better overall damage, especially against a buffed person.
However, the Ravager has 0 recoil with close to 500m range making it a perfect sniping weapon that you just can't do with a CS and Devourer and replaces the S.T.O.R.M. Laser as the Tank's sniper. I went on top of Jeriko's hack room and started sniping anyone over the fence who was buffing up. I managed to kill two people. A sniping Spy (go figure! :p) and a Tank who had no buffs but was just about to get some (He musta been like "WTF!?" ;)) It was also funny because I started shooting just anyone and the Monks always scattered around everywhere causing confusion.
It's moments like these that make the Ravager worth it. What's even better is if you're not paying attention you won't even know you are getting hit by, and anyone unbuffed will go down in one clip, probably less.
While I remember . . .
(and this *is* new and substantive information, so please don't be hasty locking this, dear mods :D)
I put together some Silent Hunter versus Ravager details ...
I've used some of Lupus' calculation formulas as they take into account multiple factors and give you a result that can be accurately compared between weapon styles/types.
To get the factored theoretical maximum damage per unit time the calc goes as follows ...
Damage per clip = (Damage per shot x shots per clip)
Clipe per minute = 60 / ( ( (60 / shots per minute) x shots per clip) + reload time)
Potential delivered damage per min = damage per clip x clips per minute
So ... we end up with :-
Silent Hunter (TL-111) : 1592 dmg per shot : 24 shots min : 4 shots per clip : 1 dmg calc per shot
Result : 30,566 dmg/min *
Ravager (TL-100) : 166 dmg per shot : 170 shots min : 3 shots per clip : 3 dmg calcs per shot
Result : 25,179 dmg/min
You also get zero recoil meaning you don't have to re-acquire reticle lock after each shot - this negates (and then some) the Devourer's less than 276% cappable aim stat
You also don't have to gimp your defence by one third to one half to cap rate of fire.
You also don't lose 80% of your range because of the clipping plane.
You also don't lose half of the full damage calculation per shot.
Summary:-
Twice the effective damage, same range, better effective aim/lock, no gimpage.
Can you see where I'm coming from ? ;)
This weapon isn't "balanced" ... you get all the advantages, with none of the penalties, with the very limited exception of no scope.
To bring it into line I think it needs four things in moderation, rather than a typical KK sledgehammer job :-
Slower aiming reticule than it has already.
A little recoil so you have to partially re-acquire lock.
Somewhat lower rate of fire.
A small range nerf, to bring it under clipping plane limit.
To *truly* balance things the issues with rifles really need to be fixed, but KK seem to have little capability/intention of ever doing anything about that, so we need to stay within the framework of what's possible with current limitations.
* (half of this gets instantly thrown away because of the locational damage limits - see threads passim)
Original monk
23-12-03, 14:00
or let the SH do 1000 damage a shot so you can kill every person in neocron in 2 shots and make it reload after every shot.
or not that extreme but yust boost the SH instead of nerfing the ravager :)
Originally posted by Original monk
or let the SH do 1000 damage a shot so you can kill every person in neocron in 2 shots and make it reload after every shot.
or not that extreme but yust boost the SH instead of nerfing the ravager :)
id rather SH get a boost, the damage is pathetic for a sniper weapon
Yeah Im with ya, boost the SH, its too crappy anyway.
**edit: maybe as per this (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85134) thread, poison mods?
Originally posted by Rade
Yeah Im with ya, boost the SH, its too crappy anyway.
**edit: maybe as per this (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85134) thread, poison mods? It's a fair idea.
Utter nightmare to balance properly across all weapon types/character classes/mobs/armour types, but still worth looking at ;)
Damage over time would certainly do the trick, or doing 1 hit of instantaneous damage but dividing up into 4 quarter calcs instead of one lump would work too.
We had some fairly similar ideas come up in this thread :- Sniper RoF needs upping (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75632&perpage=15l&pagenumber=6) from September.
Only one part of all the suggestions was implemented - changing clip size so that you get 4 rather than 3 shots before reloading.
I thought this might help, but although it's nice to get *any* boost at all, in practice this has proved to have minimal effect...
(More maths coming up :D)
We need to get absolute values for several things to compare pre & post ammo biist ...
1. Calculate the factor for real rather than theoretical Silent Hunter damage.
Assuming a runner target with no armour/resist/deflector, just the natural 33% "steel skin" value compared to Mob dmg - damage taken will be (stated dmg per shot / 3)
For SH this is (1592/3) = 531.
The engine will only allow something like 260 per hit ... *maximum* (headshot on a health capped tank with zero armour/resist) .
Therefore in reality we are only getting ((260/531)*100) = 49% of the theoretical damage.
2. Old damage per min calc using theoretical max values and reload times.
1592 dmg per shot : 24 shots min : 3 shots per clip : 1 dmg calc per shot
Result : 28,656 dmg/min
3 As per #2, but with new clip size
1592 dmg per shot : 24 shots min : 4 shots per clip : 1 dmg calc per shot
Result : 30,566 dmg/min
Now we can finally get some meaningful realworld values using fully factored numbers...
Real dmg/min before boost 14,041
Real dmg/min after boost 14,977
Therefore the ammo boost gave us only 6.6% damage/time increase, and all the other problems remain in full force - sniping still needs a *lot* of loving :(
Edit: In fact - this really shoud be in a different thread ... *click*
Hrmmm ... sidetracked from the issue a bit, so new post to get back on the rails :D
@ Original Monk: That's slightly missing the point.
The Ravager needs tweaking, irrespective of whatever happens with sniper rifles. It's just not balanced. Period.
Comparing the ravager to the silent hunter is like comparing apples and oranges. If you absolutely have to compare the ravager to a rare rifle then compare it to the disruptor. That is the rifle that shares the most properties with the ravager, being a 3 shot burst, 0 recoil, long range laser beam style weapon.
It has the same ROF, same aiming, 1.6 times the clip size, ~1.5 times the damage per shot, close to weightless ammo, can be scoped etc. The drawback is that it is TL115 vs. TL100, but apart from that it beats the ravager hands down in all areas.
@ Hagbart : Again - slightly missing the point.
The Ravager needs to balanced against the tank class abilities/weaknesses, not against other classes weapons.
(and as an aside ... the Disruptor is *not* 1.5x the damage ... it's approx .95 of the Ravager)
The Ravager is fine, don't fuck with it.
kurai, you're like the only person I have seen that has asked for a Ravager nerf. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by kurai
@ Hagbart : Again - slightly missing the point.
The Ravager needs to balanced against the tank class abilities/weaknesses, not against other classes weapons.
(and as an aside ... the Disruptor is *not* 1.5x the damage ... it's approx .95 of the Ravager)
By your own numbers, the ravager is 166 damage per shot at 170 shots per minute, 3 shot bursts, 15 round clip. The disruptor is 257 damage per shot at 222 shots per minute, 3 shot bursts and a 24 round clip. So at least according to the math I learned when I went to school, that is a bit over 1.5 times the damage per shot, 1.3 times faster ROF and 1.6 times bigger clip, meaning less reloads per minute.
When you compare the silent hunter vs. the ravager you are comparing two completely different weapons, meant for completely different purposes, and the results of that comparison means absolutely nothing. You might as well compare a moonstriker to a thunderstorm.
The silent hunter *IS* a sniper rifle, able to deliver a lot of damage in a single click of your mouse button. The ravager, as well as the disruptor, is only a sniper weapon if you use the term loosely, meaning a long range weapon.
Originally posted by Vid Gamer
The Ravager is fine, don't fuck with it.
kurai, you're like the only person I have seen that has asked for a Ravager nerf. :rolleyes: That's because there are very few around so far so it's not an issue many will have noticed.
Watch that situation change and listen for the screams as it gets more common ...
Originally posted by Hagbart
By your own numbers, the ravager is 166 damage per shot at 170 shots per minute, 3 shot bursts, 15 round clip. The disruptor is 257 damage per shot at 222 shots per minute, 3 shot bursts and a 24 round clip. So at least according to the math I learned when I went to school, that is a bit over 1.5 times the damage per shot, 1.3 times faster ROF and 1.6 times bigger clip, meaning less reloads per minute.
When you compare the silent hunter vs. the ravager you are comparing two completely different weapons, meant for completely different purposes, and the results of that comparison means absolutely nothing. You might as well compare a moonstriker to a thunderstorm.
The silent hunter *IS* a sniper rifle, able to deliver a lot of damage in a single click of your mouse button. The ravager, as well as the disruptor, is only a sniper weapon if you use the term loosely, meaning a long range weapon. Aaah - I see where the confusion arises.
You are using Rustot's numbers from neocron.ems.ru for the Disruptor. He always uses some peculiar factor which includes multiplying the absolutes by the maximal weapon stat. (i.e. x 120%)
Calculations using his figures are still valid because they all use the same factor and are correct, proportionally, to each other.
However - you can't mix and match his numbers and in-game numbers and get valid, accurate comparisons.
(i.e. you can't use my figures from the Silent Hunter thread directly because they are all based on the ems.ru ratios)
The Ravager isn't on neocron.ems.ru yet, so I've used the direct numbers from info screens of capped weapons in-game to make the comparisons fair.
If we do that for Disruptor & Ravager we end up with :-
Ravager (TL-100) : 166 dmg per shot : 170 shots min : 3 shots per clip : 3 dmg calcs per shot
Result : 25,179 dmg/min
Disruptor (TL-115) : 141 dmg per shot : 222 shots min : 8 shots per clip : 3 dmg calcs per shot
Result : 23,887 dmg/min
Thus ... Disruptor is 0.95 of the Ravager figure.
On to the second part ... again - you've not quite seen what I'm getting at.
What has "different purposes" got to do with anything ?
They both deliver damage accurately, at range.
The Silent Hunter needs more than one click anyway, because of the fucked up control system.
See my thread Sniper rifles still need some loving... (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85654) for some of the other problems which mean that the Silent Hunter is at present entirely unsuited to being used as a sniper weapon.
Calling it one doesn't magically make it useful as one.
Anyway - back to damage at range ...
A Spy pays a huge penalty in defence for that capability and still can't match the damage even when he uber-gimps himself to get maximal rate of fire because of the weapon being 15 tech levels higher.
Stand a Spy and a tank with capped weapon stats 500 metres away from each other, start firing at the same time.
Spy falls over in, at best, 3 or 4 seconds. Tank laughs his ass off and ignores, perhaps, 150 damage.
Any clearer ?
Liquid_Ice
24-12-03, 00:20
Originally posted by Vid Gamer
The Ravager is fine, don't fuck with it.
kurai, you're like the only person I have seen that has asked for a Ravager nerf. :rolleyes:
NERF!!
Why don't we just give tanks 100int also then give spies one more big poke in the ass with the cock of stupidity before they completely disappear!!!
Originally posted by kurai
You are using Rustot's numbers from neocron.ems.ru for the Disruptor. He always uses some peculiar factor which includes multiplying the absolutes by the maximal weapon stat. (i.e. x 120%)
Calculations using his figures are still valid because they all use the same factor and are correct, proportionally, to each other.
However - you can't mix and match his numbers and in-game numbers and get valid, accurate comparisons.
(i.e. you can't use my figures from the Silent Hunter thread directly because they are all based on the ems.ru ratios)
The numbers found on neocron.ems.ru are actual damage delivered per single shot against a target with 0 armor against any of the damage types that weapon is checking against, using a capped (178%) weapon with one of the available ammo mods.
The silent hunter is listed at 1592 actual damage, exactly the same as the damage you say you can read out of the info display on the silent hunter in game. The disruptor for some reason displays slightly over half the actual damage in the info display. This just shows that the numbers obtained in game are more or less bogus and is only useable to compare weapons of the exact same type. (i.e. sniper rifles of different tech levels) The numbers you read on the weapon info in game are simply given in "units" and those "units" are unique to that particular weapon type.
You can also read the information on that site to see how to test the numbers he gives out and verify that they are correct. Simply shoot a capped damage weapon with ammo mod at a rank 50/50 mob and multiply the damage numbers that show up by 3 to get the neocron.ems.ru style damage numbers. Since I don't own a ravager, and I don't feel like spending my christmas in game to get hold of one, I'm not able to do this test to obtain the real damage numbers for the ravager, but I have tested the numbers on the disruptor several times and found that they are correct.
So until someone comes and posts the actual damage numbers for a ravager there is no point at all to include the ravager in any sort of numerical comparisons. If it turns out that the ravager does out damage the disruptor then I agree that it might be a bit out of line, but I seriously doubt it ever will. In fact I'm pretty sure the disruptor will end up dealing close to 2 times the damage of the ravager over time.
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