View Full Version : rifle aoe
why arent there any aoe rifles? (are shotguns aoe?)
but there seems to be no useful aoe rifles. why not make the fusion rifles aoe like the fusion cannons - redeemer like male....
is this a good idea?
Psyco Groupie
18-12-03, 21:58
no.
no - Rifles are designed for precise long range combat, and IMO it's what they should do in Neocron and they do do.
Nope, it isn't ... better invent a new line of rifles!
Why?
'cause i don't want to loose my longrange sniping ability with the fusion rifles ;)
AoE-Damage just gets you too much attention from the mobs... :cool:
This is my "Spy" here speaking through me... *gg*
Just my 2c, Wilco
Every other weapon type has AoE - even pistols.
Grenade launchers should be rifle, and need a serious boost. Maybe have different types of grenades - beyond poison/fire/he mods - like a plasma grenade, or a proper frag grenade.
I have a feeling an AoE rifle is coming...
No.... though if they made shotgun some form of AoE that might be cool.
Clive tombstone
19-12-03, 01:36
Gernade launcher rifles would kick ars, I think, I mean, it would make us PE's in MC5 a little more effiecient in mc5 possibly, you know arcing shots and stuff?
Psycho Killa
19-12-03, 04:06
They may not need aoe but they should have something that hits stealthers.
I say let shotguns hit stealthers makes sense to me.
Melee should hit stealth also... after all there invisible not completely gone.
No AoE Rifles are planned at this time. Damage of Rifles is good, Range is good, there NEEDS to be some downside to Rifles... of course we could always nerf the hell out of Rifles, but give them AoE ;)
Don't start rumours, Rifles will neither be nerfed nor will they get AoE o_O
Psycho Killa
19-12-03, 04:11
What about something to hit stealthers with?
Melee and rifles get left out.... is that just one of the downsides of using them ? :(
how about bullets that hit and after a second explode causing (depending on ammo) fire, radiated area, or just force dmg. It can be a new mod added to certain rifles that would change the way the bullets impacted ... or also a whole new set of special ammo
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
What about something to hit stealthers with?
It is possible to hit stealthers with plasma.
Psycho Killa
19-12-03, 04:17
Wow i didnt know that thats good to know...
Though melee still doesnt get to hit them :(
The advantage of AoE in Neocron is nothing to do with RP or balance : it's about levelling. AoE massively speeds up levelling in any class. Even the crappy mini-rocket launchers offer far better XP than the rare pistols in the right environment.
Why not give us some mid-range non-rare rifle AoE just for levelling. No-one claims the MRLs unbalance anything so why not give us something like that. The 'nade launchers are perfect as they are ignored by most tanks because they have so many better options available.
Plasma is hard enough to keep on target when you can target the other guy so that's hardly helpful ;).
@maarten - nice sig. You're own quote or borrowed?
Liquid_Ice
19-12-03, 04:34
Hey Callash how about fixing the hit percentage of a First love or all plasma rifles for that matter. They suck in comparison to a plasma cannon and pistol..
And how about making the mini rocket launcher a dual-shot like it's modeled/animated as? Increase the clip-size to 16 (it's 8 now) and make it fire 2 rockets instead of the current one.
I already whined about this but... got no answers :/
// Wannabe
Originally posted by Wannabe
And how about making the mini rocket launcher a dual-shot like it's modeled/animated as? Increase the clip-size to 16 (it's 8 now) and make it fire 2 rockets instead of the current one.
I already whined about this but... got no answers :/
// Wannabe
You think that this would help? I dunno... I used to level with Mini Rocketlaunchers myself but I don't really see how 2 rockets would improve anything...
I thought the downside of rifles were the insanely Weapon Lore requirements...
But anyway, now we have confirmation that an AoE rifle is NOT coming.
Too bad. The Grenade Launchers would have been perfect.
@jernau, a friend of mine made this sig (it gives a random quote each time the page is loaded). I don't know where he got the quotes.
Weaponlore is a total farce.
Why should riflers need THREE point-sinks in their primary skills when almost everyone else has two and usually only one that requires overskilling/massive investment?
I've always put it down to KK's hatred of spies myself. We never used to need WEP but that was deemed "wrong" as it meant a spy could, in theory at least, have both a combat and a non-combat skill.
They still haven't made rifles a truly long-range weapon (clipping-plane and lag issues) but they have made it so you can't do anything else if you want to master them.
I dropped rifles after the WEP changes because I was so annoyed and have only just returned to them. They are still fun and stealth does a lot to improve the rifle-spy but WEP is still a sick joke IMO. I wouldn't have gone back if I didn't play a multi-char server and had a spare slot.
Bearing in mind the huge commitment a high-end rifler needs though is a non-rare levelling weapon really so much to ask for?
I know the WEP thing precedes your official appointment Callash so I'm not getting at you here.
Originally posted by jernau
I know the WEP thing precedes your official appointment Callash so I'm not getting at you here.
No offense taken, but seriously, just two point sinks? Monks need APU/PPU, MST, PPW and PSU. Tanks need WEP as much as riflers do, although they have few INT points to spend, plus the H-C and T-C. Droners... Okay, Droners, Pistolers and Melee Tanks only need two point sinks. That's "almost everyone"? o_O
Originally posted by Callash
No offense taken, but seriously, just two point sinks? Monks need APU, MST, PPW and PSU. Tanks need WEP as much as riflers do, although they have few INT points to spend. Droners... Okay, Droners, Pistolers and Melee Tanks only need two point sinks. That's "almost everyone"? o_O
I did say "in their primary skills" ;)
Pistols - need lots of P-C and T-C (for stealth) not much WEP
Droners - need lots of RCL and WPW
Heavy - need lots of H-C, not much T-C or WEP (neither in primary skills anyway)
Melee - need lots in M-C (kinda), not much in T-C (not in a primary skill)
PPU - need lots in PPU and PPW, a little in PSU and MST
APU - need lots in APU, PSU and PPW, some in MST - these are why I said "almost"
Rifles - need lots of R-C. WEP and T-C (for stealth)
Tanks lose nothing from CON in order to use their weapons.
PPUs can still tradeskill without much loss if they can level INT
Pistolers easily have enough INT left to tradeskill
Droners can drop some WPW at higher levels due to it being almost useless
Riflers have to commit 100% of BOTH their primary skills (ie. 66% of their XP). Only APUs have a similar burden but as they are overpowered at this time I feel less pity for them.
MST is the WEP of Monkeys but till monkocron subsides that seems less of an issue to me at least. They at lest get huge returns for huge investment.
MST is more the T-C of monkehs, PSU is their WEP but oh well ;)
Anyway, if we are gonna put it down to classes, here is how it looks like:
Spy: Needs to invest both his INT and DEX in Rifles (if he is a rifler, he can also be a pistoler and a droner). If you want to make INT a second primary skill, then...
Monk: ...the Monk has to put both his primary skills in Combat, too. He has as much freedom with his INT as the Spy, some, but not too much.
Tank: Granted, he doesn't have any CON setbacks or something.
PE: I do not even think he HAS a second primary skill :D Anyway, since his offensive skill is DEX, the same that applies for the Spy also applies for him.
Really, despite trying, I fail to see the big imbalance and unfairness in this :cool:
Originally posted by Callash
It is possible to hit stealthers with plasma.
In every situation I've seen this, I've found it to be untrue. You can sort of hit stealthers with plasma, but the shots don't actually do any damage. If you're stealthed and get hit then you appear to take damage, but it just yo-yos back up.
I'd also like to add that while monks DO need mental steadiness, they do not require nearly as much as the TC requirement for spy's stealth tools.
Again, rifle, pistol and droners require their main combat skills to come from the same pool as their speed and tradeskilling ability, pistolers require FAR less weapon lore to be as effective, but still face the dex problems both tanks and monks do not, in that both monks and tanks have primary combat stats that have no alternative skills associated with them that require skillpoint use.
Tanks and monks are the primary fighters in op wars currently, I'm wondering if part of the reason for their effectiveness is due to having their main combat skills in stat catagories that have barely any other useful skills worth investing points into. I wonder how many other people have noticed that most spies/PEs in general have the lowest runspeeds and the fewest alternate abilities such as driving, ammo cloning or hacking compared to the "non-tradeskill" classes of monks and tanks.
Edit: While spies have the ability to access higher TL items then both monks and tanks, they're also much worse at using them due to the higher requirements to be more useful with them then a lower TL alternative. Monks and tanks have the easiest time using their best abilities [holy heals/buffs, CS/rav, holy lightening/FA, all around TL 100 - far more easily mastered with lower skill levels] and also can fully dedicate to them in ways that spies cannot as I've described above. It's also interesting to note that high level ppu abilities do not have any effectiveness loss for the high tech levels as they are basicly on/off as opposed to a skill point calculation [outside of runcasting].
Originally posted by Ehyuko
I'd also like to add that while monks DO need mental steadiness, they do not require nearly as much as the TC requirement for spy's stealth tools.
Again, rifle, pistol and droners require their main combat skills to come from the same pool as their speed and tradeskilling ability, pistolers require FAR less weapon lore to be as effective, but still face the dex problems both tanks and monks do not, in that both monks and tanks have primary combat stats that have no alternative skills associated with them that require skillpoint use.
Tanks and monks are the primary fighters in op wars currently, I'm wondering if part of the reason for their effectiveness is due to having their main combat skills in stat catagories that have barely any other useful skills worth investing points into. I wonder how many other people have noticed that most spies/PEs in general have the lowest runspeeds and the fewest alternate abilities such as driving, ammo cloning or hacking compared to the "non-tradeskill" classes of monks and tanks.
Tanks don't even cap RoF on their weapons though even with all points in H-C. Not to mention the lack of good H-C imps. And also a tank with every point in H-C is a tank who will die quickly to a pistoler with a Liberator.
I agree that spies do have considerable problems since they have to balance decent stealth vs speed vs damage output. But I don't think tanks have it any better. :)
Tanks don't even cap RoF on their weapons though even with all points in H-C. Not to mention the lack of good H-C imps. And also a tank with every point in H-C is a tank who will die quickly to a pistoler with a Liberator.
I agree that spies do have considerable problems since they have to balance decent stealth vs speed vs damage output. But I don't think tanks have it any better
Tanks have a much easier time capping their weapons due to the lower tech level and the amount of force/transport required by a tank is signifigantly less then what a spy requires in tech combat and agility. I seriously doubt many tanks have 95 transport as well as 75 force resist. Combine this with the fact tank weapons are inherantly more powerful and can have VERY close to the same effective ranges as a rifle spy's weapon [storm laser and ravager] due to both the clipping plane and lack of positional updates.
My reasoning is that spies have basicly ALL their major pointsinks in Dex - which is also the location of a signifigant number of useful combat and non-combat skills combined with the requirement of a large amount of their int points in weaponlore, while this can be compared to tanks having low int and thus having to spend most of their points in weaponlore as well, this frees tanks to use almost any dex abilities while being able to almost fully dedicate their primary stats to combat without any penalties.
Also, tanks main stats of STR and CON give great benifits to their combat and non-combat roles in the form of higher free weight and more health and endurance, a spy on the other hand has basicly no similar bonus that their int/dex gives. Even psi's have great bonuses given to them by their primary stat [more psi pool, faster psi regen rate] that gives them an edge in combat and skill point allocation over spies.
Basicly as far as skill distribution, stat bonuses and weapon usage and skill effectiveness, spies have recieved the crappy end of the stick in comparison to tanks and monks. This is not apparent in general, as in theory more points = ease of use, but of course there are far more considerations then simple skill levels; and the overall abilities and penalties must be considered in relation to the other classes. These factors help make monks and tanks the dominant combat roles and prevent spies from entering into these realms, I seriously long for the day when all classes are EQUALLY useful and the choice of a character type on starting NC only sets your reference abilities rather then your level of effectiveness in combat.
Shadow Dancer
20-12-03, 04:02
That's why their should be innate class bonuses that each class gets at char creation. Like +75 agility for spies.
My suggestion, *cough*. :o
Shadow Dancer I'd much more perfer to see all stat based bonuses removed then to try and balance things by simply adding more skillpoints that some people would perfer to be elsewhere.
If class bonuses were added I wouldn't mind as long as the abilities given to them were both unique and could not take the place of ingame skills something like being a tank gave a hugely greater health and stamina regeneration rate or a spy getting both a higher max RoF on all weapons and a statisticly related greater gain on RoF or monks having a naturally higher psi regen rate or others. But definately something that cannot be given through increased stats ingame. These are just examples and do not represent a carefully thought out plan for class special abilities.
Either way, stat based bonuses to skills are unbalancing unless all classes can specificly gain some equal advantage from them.
Originally posted by Callash
MST is more the T-C of monkehs, PSU is their WEP but oh well ;)
Yeah OK :o.
I still think Rilers pay more for their one skill than anyone except APUs and I have played all of them to cap or near-cap (as I'm sure you have Callash). In all the other disciplines I had enough points left to do something else useful but not on those two.
Maybe a better way of looking at it is : What makes Rifles so amazing they deserve such a massive nerf? (bearing in mind that rifler=spy in this case - PEs are another problem).
Slightly OT Callash but could you comment on the level of specialisation in the game now? Do you approve of it? Do you think it should increase, decrease or stay as it is? Do you miss the days when people could make interesting and unique characters that were actually viable?
OK, the last one gives away my feelings on this but I'd still like to know if it's ever going to change.
/edit : @ehyuko - 110% agree. DEX and INT overskill should give some kind of useful boost - maybe similar to WEP/RCL for combat chars or better slot/failure rates for CST/RES.
I want a nailgun rifle , and I want it now ! :p
About hitting stealthers with plasma... well , its 'kind' of true. If a shot you fire into the air comes into contact with the stealther it will do about 5 points damage, in that way you can sometimes hit another target with a shot that flies off.
Without giving reticules or lock boxes, there needs to be a way to properly hurt a stealther with normal weps if you point ur gun at him and fire, because he is still meant to be there, just invisible.
Psycho_Soldier
20-12-03, 17:57
Originally posted by Scikar
In every situation I've seen this, I've found it to be untrue. You can sort of hit stealthers with plasma, but the shots don't actually do any damage. If you're stealthed and get hit then you appear to take damage, but it just yo-yos back up.
I have killed plenty of stealthers with my CS....
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