View Full Version : Stealthing
MayhemMike
18-12-03, 18:34
As of right now, there is no punishment for stealth. You should get SI or maybe a really bad drug effect. Right now you can just stealth around for ages and it not matter.
No punishment. I play a spy and use stealth to either place myself in an advantageous position or to get away.
People who keep stealthing in and out during a fight should have their nuts cut off.
I dunno........
I dont use stealth.........but it pisses me off when someone stealths away and heals then comes back and starts the same shit over again.
I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!! I suck at pvp and I need it = droms!!!
Nope I suck and I need it bad.
Mumblyfish
18-12-03, 18:40
Give stealth a "cast time"? As in lock the user in place and have the module charge (longer stealth/longer charge) up to a maximum of 5 seconds. This wouldn't REALLY hinder people who use stealth for... being stealthy. It would, however, prevent people from stealthing immediately when they get shot at.
Stealth should also have a nice flashy charging effect. Even if it's only noticible to the user himself. There's not enough special effects :angel:
MayhemMike
18-12-03, 18:40
i mean, i think stealth should be used to get you out of a stick situation or like you said move you to a vantage point. But not just to stealth around like a fairy. There should be a drug effect every stealth, not to bad but you know.. like 10 stacks of drugs waring off:p 8|
MayhemMike
18-12-03, 18:43
Ok sorry for double post, but earlier today a droner with a friggin obliterator was able to stealth move behind a medi guy and log out before he unstealthed...........
That was displeasing... He never left the room because no doors opened.
Last time I suggested this, I was overrun by an army of angry spies. Be careful : D
Stealth is the best defense in the game, next to ppu's. The two of them seriously put everyone else at a disatvantage. For example a stealther can slip by any npc and a ppu can, in most cases, withstand the attack long enough to get by. That leaves everyone else high and dry, if they tried to run by said npc, they'd be killed.
It's the same in pvp, I would say stealth is the second most annoying thing to have to fight, first of course is a ppu. Stealth, snipe, Stealth, snipe, Stealth, snipe, all around the zone until he gets bored and gives up.
It makes no sense to give stealthers a drug effect cause then they cant run away, if someone stealths durign a fight the person they are fighting can immediately start healing themselves but the stealther can only use a medkit.
It can be infuriating to see someone at 10% health pop out of existence but its also a painin the arse to see a holy shelter effect over an enemy APU or a tank with a devourer on the sync line, just cuase it pisses people off doesnt mean it should be nerfed.
Idea, stealth tool 1, 1% impairment (which is alot if you think about it.....)
stealth tool 2, 3% impairment
stealth tool 3, 5% impairment
stealth tool 4 (obliterator) 7% impairment
or 1% added for each level, 1,2,3,4.....
if you think about it, it would hinder the stealther after he unstealths, and he couldnt stealth again until the impairment went away.
the impairment would kick in after the stealth deactivates.
MayhemMike
18-12-03, 18:50
Oh EL, it should be nerfed... hybrids pissed people off and so did ppus... they got the nerf.. why not the stealth...
What if stealth drained health with extended use? Not to the point where you lose half your HP for using it once, but if you use it too frequently your health starts to drop? Also make it fade in rather than blink. That way people can't just instantly disappear the second they see an enemy.
EDIT: @ Zanathos, I think it should be the other way around. More SI for the lower level stealth. Maybe just 2% impairment for all of them, since you would be restealthing less with lvl 2 3 and Oblit then it would mean less in real terms.
$tormbringer
18-12-03, 18:51
lol just because u cant kill a spy that stealthes away u dont need to whine...
stealth is one of the best defense methods a spy can have otherwise he dies very very very fast...
let stealth as it is...
and btw it produces a drug flash....
MayhemMike
18-12-03, 18:53
$torm, it does not, i have tried it... Over 50 times with my PE not one drug flash, i've never gotten one even tho they say it does.. It's lies. n!b
Originally posted by $tormbringer
lol just because u cant kill a spy that stealthes away u dont need to whine...
stealth is one of the best defense methods a spy can have otherwise he dies very very very fast...
let stealth as it is...
and btw it produces a drug flash....
The best spies do not really need stealth. And PEs certainly don't.
@ Scikar
I dont think so.
The impairment is for the time that you remain in a stealth state.
Lets put it a different way.
You are less impaired if you drink 1 beer rather than 2.
PE's need stealth if their ganked in the middle of doing things.....
such as fighting mobs and hacking stuff :p
but still, a penalty of some kind is needed.......
/me looks at previous post with idea
Originally posted by Zanathos
Idea, stealth tool 1, 1% impairment (which is alot if you think about it.....)
stealth tool 2, 3% impairment
stealth tool 3, 5% impairment
stealth tool 4 (obliterator) 7% impairment
or 1% added for each level, 1,2,3,4.....
if you think about it, it would hinder the stealther after he unstealths, and he couldnt stealth again until the impairment went away.
the impairment would kick in after the stealth deactivates.
imo it should be the other way around, that way punish pes and give spies the better end of the stick as they're the ones who need it. Also synap shouldnt be a big downside as its ment to be used as a escape route so u should only need to use it once a fight if your loosing.
Oh and i think 4,3,2,1 is better as 4% will hurt but not too much, it shoud aso prevent pes from constantly casting stealth 1 as most only have just enough tc. with spies actualy having a reason to gimp for oblitorator :)
I'll make you a deal. If you can get parashock taken out of the game then I will hang my stealth tool up to dry forever. :p
/me looks at beer analogy
stealth tool 1 is 1 beer.... less impairment
stealth tool 2 is 2 beers.... more impairment than above
stealth tool 3 is 3 beers.... even more impairment than the above
stealth tool 4 is 4 beers.... even more drunk to the point that you halucinate dancing warbots.
@ Jest
or reduce its time to 10 seconds :p
Originally posted by Zanathos
stealth tool 4 is 4 beers.... even more drunk to the point that you halucinate dancing warbots. ... That's some strong beer. o_O
Originally posted by Zanathos
@ Scikar
I dont think so.
The impairment is for the time that you remain in a stealth state.
Lets put it a different way.
You are less impaired if you drink 1 beer rather than 2.
PE's need stealth if their ganked in the middle of doing things.....
such as fighting mobs and hacking stuff :p
but still, a penalty of some kind is needed.......
/me looks at previous post with idea
If PEs need it to avoid being ganked then why doesn't my tank have anything like that? PEs can take much more of a beating than my tank can without stealth, so why do PEs get it to run away and I don't? I have to disagree with you there 100%. PEs do not need stealth one little bit, any situation you can name where a PE needs his stealth is a situation where the tank is worse off. Parashocked by an APU/PPU team out to gank you? Tank is going to die faster. At an OP war with low health? Tank can't even get a good heal without crying for a PPU. Running past a hostile NPC? The tank's lower defence means he won't even get as far as an unstealthing PE.
And with the beer analogy, the level 4 beer is much higher quality than the lower levels so it has less of a negative effect on you and more of a positive effect. ;)
superfresh
18-12-03, 19:07
When you stealth you should collapse, go into convulsions, and get attacked by 9 hooded wraiths.
Originally posted by Zanathos
/me looks at beer analogy
stealth tool 1 is 1 beer.... less impairment
stealth tool 2 is 2 beers.... more impairment than above
stealth tool 3 is 3 beers.... even more impairment than the above
stealth tool 4 is 4 beers.... even more drunk to the point that you halucinate dancing warbots.
@ Jest
or reduce its time to 10 seconds :p
then i dont think the benefit of gimping your self to use stealth 3 and 4 would be worth it.
onyl problem i have with stealth is the damn Pes using it really, but they are ment to be able to use a bit of everything so meh
Originally posted by Zanathos
/me looks at beer analogy
stealth tool 1 is 1 beer.... less impairment
stealth tool 2 is 2 beers.... more impairment than above
stealth tool 3 is 3 beers.... even more impairment than the above
stealth tool 4 is 4 beers.... even more drunk to the point that you halucinate dancing warbots.
Unfortunatly i look at it another way, you have to invest more points for each higher stealth and so shoud be rewarded for the investment (plus its ment to be a better version in the same way a cs is better than a tpc). Also pes have one of the best defences in the game with the exception of hybrids and ppus therefore they shouldnt need to rely on it, whereas a spy has one of the weakest defences, so it is actualy needed by them. There is no way we can stop people abusing it, but we can make it harder for them to do so.
hoie..... well... you dont see what im really trying to get at but oh well......
and btw
@ Scikar again.....
I have an idea on how to balance the PE's.......... I'm waiting for the devs at ReaKKtor to absorb my other 55 ideas before I unleash my character balances on them.
If you wan't to nerf my spy Stealth, then I want the defence power of a tank/PE or the attack power of an APU.
K'thxbye.
"No such thing as a free lunch"
Originally posted by Zanathos
Idea, stealth tool 1, 1% impairment (which is alot if you think about it.....)
stealth tool 2, 3% impairment
stealth tool 3, 5% impairment
stealth tool 4 (obliterator) 7% impairment
or 1% added for each level, 1,2,3,4.....
if you think about it, it would hinder the stealther after he unstealths, and he couldnt stealth again until the impairment went away.
the impairment would kick in after the stealth deactivates.
Stealth is worthless then so it's a crap idea.
There is a drug effect when using stealth tools. Period.
More,
- if you look at the T-C costs of having the higher end tools, you will see that most spies are gimping their attack to be able to evade situations for a long time
- interruption of a stealth takes a minimum of 2 secs, and before the end of the stealthing effect, the stealther is unable to attack
- at the end of the stealth, the stealther still needs to draw a weapon
... for spies its the only line of defense... [edit] I should say moreso for a droner like me
What does that have to do with anything?
When a character steaths, its because he is low on health or he is going by strong mobs, or he is trying to suprise an enemy runner.
What the problem is, is the length of time which you can stealth too.
I suggested something
people think it should be the opposite
it doesnt make sence
again, ill use another analogy
stealth 1 = 3 str drug
stealth 2 = 4 str drug
stealth 3 = 5 str drug
stealth 4 = nightshade
the stronger the drug, the longer the drug flash.
but others here suggest its
stealth 1 = nightshade
steath 2 = 5 str drug
stealth 3 = 4 str drug
stealth 4 = 3 str drug
which makes no sense.....
but meh.
the impairment isnt that bad... only if you use a stronger stealth... if you think about it, a penalty of 1% impairment, 2%, 3%.. stealth tool 4 = 4% is NOT that bad considering the amount of time you can stealth for.
since i realize that 1, 3, 5, 7 % impairment is too much, the above should be used.
I dont care about spy stealth but I think the tools should be spy only. Cause I believe the majority of high tech PE's (myself included) abuse stealth way to much. PE's have good resists good dmg and good speed. Dont see why they need the spys easy escape aswell.
PE's should be able to use stealth 1, thats it.
but their defence needs to be toned down... again, back at my balancing ideas... but must wait before i submit them...
Originally posted by Jest
I'll make you a deal. If you can get parashock taken out of the game then I will hang my stealth tool up to dry forever. :p
Agreed. If Parashock is removed from PvP then I wouldn't mind stealth being removed.
BTW everyone who keeps on going on about bloody PE defence, yes it is good BUT, only when you have a very good resist setup and have multiple slotted shelters. Anyway we do the least amount of damage in the game (excluding PPUs because they don't count) so we should have good defence.
Oh yes mayhem mike, it DOES give a drug effect after a time.
EDIT: Might I also point out that PEs (especially Pistol PEs) are shit at OP wars.
Jesterthegreat
18-12-03, 19:30
sure... as long as any kind of para has the same effect on the caster... O_o
Pistol PE's crap at Op wars?
i think not. My clan lubs me thank joo!
Were a small clan and my 3 good friends each have a pistol PE :eek: mine included.
is it because of the range?
then use the black sun or tangent epic pistol.
you may think that pistol PE's do the least amount of damage but they fire the fastest and fire the most amount of bullets next to the gatlin cannon/rifle.
makes sense..
rifles fire slow, but are accourate and do middle damage
heavy weapons fire fast, but are inacurate and do high damage
pistols fire faster than heavy weapons in most cases but are more accurate than heavy weapons and do lower damage than rifles.
its all in how you play.
PISTOL PES DO NOT SUCK AT OP WARS BECAUSE MY FRIENDS FRIEND'S COUSIN SAW 6 PISTOL PES KILL A PPU.
Yeah Pistol PEs are great because they can be your hack bitches and damage sponges.
Psyco Groupie
18-12-03, 19:35
you actually do get a hangover if u stealth about 10 times in a row .. maybe increase this for stealth one and make the obliterator have the same amount as now
lets not forget that since most use liberators there good monk killers or PPU repelents.
that and a well thought out pistol PE is deadly.
stealth tools require a SLIGHT penalty. increasing with each level of stealth.... plain as that.
holy paralysis..... 10 seconds instead of the 15? 20?
They aren't very good at op wars because when you add a PPU into the equation PEs have the equal or just better defence than a spy... why? Because PEs defence is almost all dependant on their spells, when everyone has capped Holy buffs then their defence is drastically reduced in comparison. Also they have less HP than tanks, so they are worse cannon fodder and do less damage than tanks and APU monks. Oh and also they rely on speed a huge amount, and when you are glued to the ground by parashock that advantage disappears.
EDIT: why, why is a well thought out Pistol PE deadly at an OP war? In a duel then yeah it is, but why are they deadly in comparison to a well thought out APU or Tank?
does someone have bad experiences with their pistol PE at op wars? I sure havent......
Yep I have. Which is why I'm passing on the reasons WHY they are no good at OP wars... the only thing that PISTOL PEs are useful for at op wars is hacking.... oh and maybe cannon fodder.
Cruzbroker
18-12-03, 20:59
2-3% SI just like on drones, and you can't use stealth again, until SI has worn off.
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
2-3% SI just like on drones, and you can't use stealth again, until SI has worn off. In that case I'd like to see self-cast shelter/deflector give 2-3% SI and you can't use those buffs again, until SI has worn off.
"No such thing as a free lunch"
hahaha look how many suckers need stealth
stealth is definately good for spies but pes? only pussy pes use stealth.
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
2-3% SI just like on drones, and you can't use stealth again, until SI has worn off. Thats only if the drone blows up. Tell you what, make it so that stealth tool quality degrades over time and if the tool breaks I have 2-3% SI then I'm all for that. :p
BlackPrince
18-12-03, 21:29
Nerf stealth, fine.
Then Reduce PE's PSI to 15, no more.
Reduce Tanks CON to 30
Everytime a PPU buffs you(or self buffs), you get 14% SI.
Nice, fair tradeoff.
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
2-3% SI just like on drones, and you can't use stealth again, until SI has worn off.
Originally posted by Kurai
In that case I'd like to see self-cast shelter/deflector give 2-3% SI and you can't use those buffs again, until SI has worn off.
Originally posted by Jest
Thats only if the drone blows up. Tell you what, make it so that stealth tool quality degrades over time and if the tool breaks I have 2-3% SI then I'm all for that. :p
Not only that but, you need 3+ slots in order for it to be worthwhile in combat. Keep in mind, these will drop when you die. No more dropping a crappy spell or piece of armor, you will always drop something that costs 50k or more(most likely more). Hmm, lets see there will need to be an anti stealth tool which only spies/pes who cant stealth will use. It lets them see you despite stealth, target you, and remove stealth. Oh and lastly, using stealth will sometimes fail for no reason whatsoever.
:D
Disturbed021
18-12-03, 21:49
Originally posted by MayhemMike
As of right now, there is no punishment for stealth. You should get SI or maybe a really bad drug effect. Right now you can just stealth around for ages and it not matter.
Except for the fact that you can't heal, use a weapon, or do anything else other than run away.
Come on man, stealth has been the best addition to the game for spies to date so just shut it.
SI for using Stealth is just plain silly....
/edit I'm all for the stealth tool degrading over time and eventually breaking like any weapon.
Shadow Dancer
18-12-03, 21:51
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Give stealth a "cast time"? As in lock the user in place and have the module charge (longer stealth/longer charge) up to a maximum of 5 seconds. This wouldn't REALLY hinder people who use stealth for... being stealthy. It would, however, prevent people from stealthing immediately when they get shot at.
Stealth should also have a nice flashy charging effect. Even if it's only noticible to the user himself. There's not enough special effects :angel:
Cast time is not a bad idea. With higher level stealths having much less cast time.
I don't see a problem with stealth, spies need it. I see a problem with PEs stealthing though. It's easily abused by them. They certainly do NOT need it. And why do they have it and tanks don't?
:rolleyes:
theyr bleeding joats thats why. and yes they need it. Stealth 2 might be a bit excessive.
Thing is as a pe too beat an apu you more or less need to stealth close to them because otherwise youll be almost dead bofre you reach em from those damn hls or poison beams with non nerfed ranges.
Disturbed021
18-12-03, 21:58
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I see a problem with PEs stealthing though. It's easily abused by them. They certainly do NOT need it. And why do they have it and tanks don't?
I agree with you.
PE's do not need Stealth, but most that I know use it.
Since their defense is better, stealth PEs are more of a pain in the ass than Stealth Spies, which I think is waaaaay wrong.
Stealth was put in specifically for Spies afaik.....
Shadow Dancer
18-12-03, 22:04
Originally posted by Darkborg
theyr bleeding joats thats why.
Oh please. Always joats when it suits them. A jack of all trades having better than tank defense. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Darkborg
Thing is as a pe too beat an apu you more or less need to stealth close to them because otherwise youll be almost dead bofre you reach em from those damn hls or poison beams with non nerfed ranges.
I really don't feel bad for anyone who dies to poison.
And HL range has been nerfed. Pes do NOT need stealth. They did fine without it for such a long time, all of a sudden they need it?
You know why I call my hybrid overpowered? Because of his ability to heal. Near death? No problem, run around a column hide behind a desk, run through some obstalces, all while healing and poof full health. It's cheesy and fake, and if I know what I'm doing in a real fight i'm just not going to die. It's the same thing with PEs and stealth. They have enough defense so that they can easily stealth away when near death. It's sooooo lame. You are just NOT going to kill a PE who knows when to stealth.
What I would like to see is all classes have some "special" form of defense. Then it would be fair. Like APU would have an elemental aura that drains mana, and/or the tank would have the ability to "harden" his skin or something but can't pull his weapons out.
I just get annoyed when pes say "hey we're not joats" when they don't want to be gimped then say "wait we're joats" when they want to mooch off other classes.
theres nothing more ammusing than Damage boosting a spy and following his trail :D
sorry,
i dont use stealth personally but no need to nerf it....
A weak class get to vanish, so what, tanks get Cursed Souls :p
Originally posted by Disturbed021
Except for the fact that you can't heal, use a weapon, or do anything else other than run away.
Come on man, stealth has been the best addition to the game for spies to date so just shut it.
SI for using Stealth is just plain silly....
/edit I'm all for the stealth tool degrading over time and eventually breaking like any weapon.
PPU argument = We have very little offense, Our entire purpose is to help people, We need to be able to focus on team rather then self, Thus we need the best defenses.
The ppu argument doesn't work anymore then your argument for stealth. How about we list what you *can* do with stealth:
1) Avoid any mob in the game
2) Reach places only ppu's can reach due to deadly mobs
3) Only countered by 3 factors - shock (can still manage to get away if ppu is not near you), dmg boost/fire (again maintain distance and use anti drugs), and true site sanctum (also known as true shit sanctum, it only works in close quarters).
4) Live indefinitly assuming you stay alert.
5) Have 10+ people trying to kill you and still run around the zone taunting them
6) Get Away Free Card, if you don't like a fight you can leave without being chased
Theres prolly more, but thats off the top of my head. The only other class that can do things like this are the PPU's. People unanimously declare that ppu's are too powerful, by extension Stealth is also too powerful.
Honestly I don't care about stealth, but I'm sick of people trying to claim they're weak and deserve to be overpowered. If you approve of ppu's defensive powers being reduced then stealth is next on your nerf list.
Originally posted by g0rt
hahaha look how many suckers need stealth
stealth is definately good for spies but pes? only pussy pes use stealth.
Biggest bullshit ever.
There should be a punishment for using PSI boosters you are sticking yourself with needles from some shady guy some must be diseased or you should take damage for everyone used. There should be a punishment for being around the plasma in the CS. There should be a punishment for having buffs because if you have shields around you, your own shots have to get out of it and to do that they have to hit it.
SPYS HAVE MINIMUAL ARMOR AND CON. Have you noticed their legs are like paper. If stealth got any sort of draw back spys would need something else. If stealth had a draw back then they should remove the clipping distance so we don't need to cloak and kill you 2000m away. Or give spys armor equal to a pe and cast shelter.
You people are the bitchiest people ever. Spy’s and Pe’s are that hardcore class only some can master and own your fucking ass (unless you are a bitch of a big clan or a cheater and have the SA or kami chip etc.).
I mean number crunching MC5 chip users and kami users cause all the problems of neocron. They unbalance many things. To use stealth 3 you are wasting precious rifle points to get that quick fire rate and damage needed to hurt shit. Using an obliterator what the fuck. Either with this new spy suit and SA or Kami I don't see how you can use the obliterator and actually do any damage with cloak and stealth tactics.
) Avoid any mob in the game
2) Reach places only ppu's can reach due to deadly mobs
3) Only countered by 3 factors - shock (can still manage to get away if ppu is not near you), dmg boost/fire (again maintain distance and use anti drugs), and true site sanctum (also known as true shit sanctum, it only works in close quarters).
4) Live indefinitly assuming you stay alert.
5) Have 10+ people trying to kill you and still run around the zone taunting them
6) Get Away Free Card, if you don't like a fight you can leave without being chased
Ok I will fix what you said.
1) If you are even seen by a mob cloaking does nothing you have to completely rezone before it won't shoot you while cloaked.
2) Same as two.
3) When shocked all you do is shoot their legs dumb ass even if he gets rid of the shock or db you can follow his slow moving cloud.
4) Uh, medpacks heal slowly, heal spell shows you up.
5) Yea, if you have skills and luck. Snipers are MENT TO HARASS. And when there is 10 people there are usually ppus who can just cast a heal and boom the damage it took in your now exposed spot is no use.
6) Yea sure if you are a respectable spy or known they won't let you get away. Not to mention only KAMI or MC5 chip users will be able to run effectively fast.
Since neocron has a clipping range where you can easily be spotted and shot at the distance that a "sniper" of neocron can shoot at max range it does no use without stealth.
Leave spys alone since your invincible ppus/apu combos have been fucked and the hybrids doesn't mean you have to try and force KK into nerfing the spys. Hopefully they will realize you people are as dumb as your inherited genes.
As mentioned, repeatedly, spies stealthing is not the issue. PEs stealthing is.
Btw PEs are useful at OP wars because they can damage boost, they can cast TL3 heal quicker than tanks can for noob buffing, they can also cast shelter to noob buff with, and they can scout around. They can also survive on their own buffs for a limited time. Whereas tanks and APUs have to rely almost completely on their PPUs to survive.
God damn if I wasn't occupied with other things right now I would reactivate my spy and kill your low level characters and fuck your monks up. I wonder how much better I could do with the new spy suit. Hell I could probably use my sexy capped FL and maybe get my skills right with the help of the suit to use its caps. Hell I think I could even use stealth 3 instead of just two.
BTW PE's can still only use stealth one right? How stuptid can you be to lose a person in ten seconds?
(Doing anything to the stealth device would nerf spys as well)
Shadow I'll make you a deal. Next time we see each other in Pepper Park, you don't parashock me or heal yourself and I won't use my stealth tool.
I don't abuse stealth. I use it when I need to. Yesterday I fought Kayne and I could have easily stealthed away but I choose to stay and fight even when my shelter ran. Most people think that even using it a single time is abusing it.
There is little to no way in hell I will give up my stealth as long as parashock is in the game, plain and simple.
I'm a PE who has always used stealth... The drug effect should ALWAYS happen after the first stealth and then get worse. Gives spys a fair chance to run away (90 seconds!) and it is still very powerful to PEs. Its just stupid that you cant possibly kill someone that has it. If they dont nerf stealth they need a few more ways to counter it. Like AoE unstealths or you can still shoot the blue glowly thing with normal weapons.
Originally posted by MayhemMike
$torm, it does not, i have tried it... Over 50 times with my PE not one drug flash, i've never gotten one even tho they say it does.. It's lies. n!b
My PE gets light drug flash after about 5-10 stealth 1 activations in quick succession.....at least he did about a month ago.
Shadow Dancer
18-12-03, 23:53
Hnlector, incase your long-winded flame filled rant was also directed at me, please know that I think spy stealth should stay the way it is completely. My only issue is with PEs and stealth. k thx :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Jest
Shadow I'll make you a deal. Next time we see each other in Pepper Park, you don't parashock me or heal yourself and I won't use my stealth tool.
So I give up 2 things and you give up 1? How about no?
Originally posted by Jest
I don't abuse stealth. I use it when I need to.
O_o
Originally posted by Jest
There is little to no way in hell I will give up my stealth as long as parashock is in the game, plain and simple.
I totally understand that man. Parashock should just be made PvM, simple.
But please also understand the way I feel Jest. ;) I don't have APU damage. So it's quite easy for a PE to stealth away from me when they know their going to die, which has happened a bazillion times. So now I shock/db and follow their drug hazed ass and try and kill them. :p
Sex, I still love your cheesy ass though. :D
rubaduckythug
18-12-03, 23:54
Let the spys use them without punishment, spys deserve them, but PE's give them a nice handfull of si, Stealth should be spyonly imo:D.
I dont have a spy char either ^^, well ok a barter char who cant stealth anyways, but i agree with the penaltie for using stealth except 4 spys, as you can see i think spys deserve it and PE's dont, so give the PE's HELL!!! :p :lol: :p
EDIT: why not a rare mod that allows the person using the wep with the mod to see the stealthers recticule? or somthing like that. that would be kool, the stealther would be praying that you dont have the rare Stealth Vision mod as there stealthing/ running away ^^
Originally posted by #151988
Biggest bullshit ever.
lol
sorry i have ZERO respect for any PE that has to stealth to be good
just sad
Hmmm ok I guess I'll give up deflector too. :p
Stealth is a tricky subject, just like parashock. If you have parashock in your quick belt, your going to use it. Same with stealth. If I have the option to either stay and die or stealth and live, I'm probably going to choose stealth. (Though most of my stealths come from being parashocked, out numbered, or shelter running).
And I'll be honest, if PEs lost stealth, I'd be dissapointed, but I wouldn't be THAT dissapointed. I've even recently highly considered dropping high tech in the first place. (Mainly because my brain is used to the Libby and I dont even use my high tech weapon). And you know what, hell, maybe I will. :p Though I still hate parashock. ;)
Originally posted by g0rt
lol
sorry i have ZERO respect for any PE that has to stealth to be good
just sad
I have no respect for any PE that uses PPU buffs.
The main time that I use stealth is when I want to get away from overpowering odds or when I'm parashocked. I wouldn't be too devasted without stealth.... but I feel that its a thing that alot of people enjoy and isn't overpowering the PE class.
Instead of nerfing stealth how about doing this:
Giving SPIES ONLY an eye and a tool that lets them see through stealth. Also two spy only rares: 'Combined Rifle eye 3 and anti-stealth eye' and 'Combined Pistol eye 3 and anti stealth eye'
Boost AoE damage quite a bit
Extend truesight sanctum
Inscrease poison damage SLIGHTLY on poison beam
Make stealth 2+ spy only
That way all the other three classes get boosts while PE gets to keep his stealth 1.
Omg I just realized low tech weapons = two additional quick belt slots... Now THAT is a zesty idea.... hmmmm...
Originally posted by MayhemMike
As of right now, there is no punishment for stealth. You should get SI or maybe a really bad drug effect. Right now you can just stealth around for ages and it not matter.
You get the punishment not being able to attack.
Also stuns and aoe still effects you...you also have truesight to combat it.
I think spies are the one class that are quite balanced as they are.
Thanks.
nonamebrandeggs
19-12-03, 00:36
Stealth does make a drug affect Mike. I use it a lot :P :P and if I'm running away from 2 APUs or something it's a little of the old in out in out (in stealth out stealth that is). You probobly just got lucky, as I do with drugs 50% of the time (As in I get no drugflash or wobly movement :D). It doesn't need changing because I say so, the only change it needs is restrictions, as in the PEs can't use it.
Originally posted by Zanathos
What does that have to do with anything?
When a character steaths, its because he is low on health or he is going by strong mobs, or he is trying to suprise an enemy runner.
What the problem is, is the length of time which you can stealth too.
I suggested something
people think it should be the opposite
it doesnt make sence
again, ill use another analogy
stealth 1 = 3 str drug
stealth 2 = 4 str drug
stealth 3 = 5 str drug
stealth 4 = nightshade
the stronger the drug, the longer the drug flash.
but others here suggest its
stealth 1 = nightshade
steath 2 = 5 str drug
stealth 3 = 4 str drug
stealth 4 = 3 str drug
which makes no sense.....
but meh.
the impairment isnt that bad... only if you use a stronger stealth... if you think about it, a penalty of 1% impairment, 2%, 3%.. stealth tool 4 = 4% is NOT that bad considering the amount of time you can stealth for.
since i realize that 1, 3, 5, 7 % impairment is too much, the above should be used.
I never said anything about comparing stealth to drugs though :p
The way i see it the only problem with stealth is pe's and people abusing it, synap should be able to stop a pe casting stealth one constantly but alow them to escape when they need to, also the penalty should be less with higher levels of stealth as only spies really use them and you need to sync more points into skills to use them so you should be better skilled at using the device and it shouldnt hurt you as much.
Spies are so much fun to discuss balance with, anything that effects them is an outrage. I suppose many ppu's come off like that to those who want us nerfed.
hnlecter, you didn't disprove any of my statements. You listed what would happen if you mess up while trying to do those things. I am assuming a competant player who knows how to use stealth. When you talk about ppu's do you think about the moron that walks around with buffs or the one that mixes up his spells and casts antishock instead of shelter? No, you think about the ppu that walks through 20 people shooting him and ressurects his entire team. It's silly to judge something based on people who don't use it properly. The handle of my screwdriver works as a temporary hammer if needed, but its silly to say the screwdriver is a worthless tool because it doesn't work as good as a hammer.
Like I said, I don't really care what you do to stealth, as long as you do the same with my ppu defenses. Both are overpowered defenses in comparison to the other classes. I really don't care that your spy is weak and dies when somene sneezes. If you stripped away my defenses, I would fall over just as fast. I don't care that you don't know how to use stealth properly, I'm not the best at being a ppu either. I make mistakes and I accept that it's my fault, it has nothing to do with me being a ppu.
I think its really selfish and unfair to approve of ppu's defenses beind reduced and then use the same failed arguments we've made to defend your spy's stealth. If it doesn't work for us, it shouldn't work for you.
Bleh, sorry I'm ranting now. *steps off the soapbox*
Originally posted by Jest
I'll make you a deal. If you can get parashock taken out of the game then I will hang my stealth tool up to dry forever. :p
And me.. thats 90% the reason i ever use it...
I never said I didn't know how to stealth. Stealthing was my main thing since I was usually fighting numbers more than me or killing people who we were after. I don't know how much of an advantage this new Spy suit is because I quit a month or so before it came out because necron was getting boring (mainly I couldn't find anyone to gank everyone likes those op wars). But when I was ingame I only saw stealth complaints every now and then when some poor monk or tank got their ass replaced.
I am guessing alot of people are noticing that if you have patience spys are powerful. When I was still ingame there were only maybe 10 spys I thought were really good. I guess I should just shut up since I haven't seen ingame how many spys there are.
I hate stealthing away kiddies, they come back with full health and you havnt had the chance to heal up much at all and they take you down in the end. It's crap, I dont know if it's the stealth that needs nerf, maybe the psi lvls at spy/pe classes, not sure..
In my opinion stealth is fine for spies and even PE's should be able to use level 1 stealth. I believe this because unless you want to follow the strenth boosting spy role then you have crap for armour [every class in the game gets better armour then spies - including apus], while at least other classes have some viability in other roles.
I think its really selfish and unfair to approve of ppu's defenses beind reduced and then use the same failed arguments we've made to defend your spy's stealth. If it doesn't work for us, it shouldn't work for you
I disagree with this comparison because while stealthed a spy can do nothing but run and use drugs or medkits. Medkits are almost useless by themselves in pvp and drugs are only used to remove status effects upon the user. PPUs on the other hand have shelter/deflectors that last for 2 minutes and heals that last almost as long as stealth 2. While these effects are active ppus can STILL use other effects on others and themselves - basicly a stealth tool [if you want to make that comparison] that allows the user to still perform all their normal actions while stealthed.
While many people claim the ppu has no offensive capabilities, I ask them to re-examine the soul cluster, an excellent weapon easily comparable to the top drones and in the next patch soul cluster's damage will be increased further! Sure they are uncontrolable other then to select their targets, but that very uncontrolable nature allows a ppu to continue doing whatever they want while the SC goes off and fights... a more then equal tradeoff.
For the number of stealthing spies I see in combat, I cannot imagine why anyone would ever point to them and say NERF, op wars are still totally dominated by monks with tanks coming up as some minor form of competition, however still tanks without a monk are useless against a team of monks in a fight. I find PEs to have very close to the same abilities as tanks or spies in defense and attack respectively, even if this setup requires rare imps and a long time fine tuning, this I dislike as they approch the same level as specialists without many of their drawbacks and the specialists have very little advantage over PE's due to how many skillpoints are required to overspec items.
It seems basicly most people who want stealth weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the stealther, not dying to people that stealth. I think that right there says somehting about how much stealth requires nerfing. :rolleyes:
Disturbed021
19-12-03, 02:58
Originally posted by Carinth
PPU argument = We have very little offense, Our entire purpose is to help people, We need to be able to focus on team rather then self, Thus we need the best defenses.
The ppu argument doesn't work anymore then your argument for stealth. How about we list what you *can* do with stealth:
1) Avoid any mob in the game
2) Reach places only ppu's can reach due to deadly mobs
3) Only countered by 3 factors - shock (can still manage to get away if ppu is not near you), dmg boost/fire (again maintain distance and use anti drugs), and true site sanctum (also known as true shit sanctum, it only works in close quarters).
4) Live indefinitly assuming you stay alert.
5) Have 10+ people trying to kill you and still run around the zone taunting them
6) Get Away Free Card, if you don't like a fight you can leave without being chased
Theres prolly more, but thats off the top of my head. The only other class that can do things like this are the PPU's. People unanimously declare that ppu's are too powerful, by extension Stealth is also too powerful.
Honestly I don't care about stealth, but I'm sick of people trying to claim they're weak and deserve to be overpowered. If you approve of ppu's defensive powers being reduced then stealth is next on your nerf list.
Carinth I usually agree with everything you post but I disagree with everything you have to say above.
1. Yes you can avoid mobs, but the moment they see you even for a second they will target you until you zone, die or kill the mob. Its not like you can fight a mob, stealth away, heal and continue fighting.
2. Again yes if you stealth you can get to some places, but honestly I have been everywhere in this game with every character I made....using the terrain and zone lines you can get just about anywhere if you try hard enough. With the new faction guards it has changed abit tho.
3. Um AoE weapons such as Fusion Cannons and Barrels still hurt quite abit....no anti-drugs for those :p
4. Lol, sure because I have stealth I will always stay alive as long as I dont try to attack anything ever......
5. If you have 10+ ppl looking for one lone stealther and cannot wind up killing them then those 10+ ppl aren't that good tbh. As long as you stay in a group and hit the person with para and DB they are easy to track and AoE their feet even when they restealth...I know cause I have been involved in a few 5+ ppl trying to catch a stealther several times.....kind of fun imo *shug*
6. And whats the problem with a get away free card? We are talking about leaving here. Its not like they are standing around stealthed killing ppl. Spys are weak defensively and Stealth gives them an edge that they didn't have b4.
Ur comparison of a PPU vs Stealth doesn't work to me anyways.
PPU can stand there and take fire from several ppl.
Stealther has to stealth and run their asses off.
I see nothing in common for you to try to compare them in the first place. They are completely different things. Question have you played a stealther Carinth or just tried chasing them down?
I think Ehyuko summed it up pretty well;
"It seems basicly most people who want stealth weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the stealther, not dying to people that stealth. I think that right there says somehting about how much stealth requires nerfing."
Imo stealth isn't overpowered because its just used to get into or out of a fight or to a place w/o being detected, not to kill quicker.
Again I am only talking about spies here, PEs using stealth is a different argument altogether.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
I disagree with this comparison because while stealthed a spy can do nothing but run and use drugs or medkits. Medkits are almost useless by themselves in pvp and drugs are only used to remove status effects upon the user. PPUs on the other hand have shelter/deflectors that last for 2 minutes and heals that last almost as long as stealth 2. While these effects are active ppus can STILL use other effects on others and themselves - basicly a stealth tool [if you want to make that comparison] that allows the user to still perform all their normal actions while stealthed.
While many people claim the ppu has no offensive capabilities, I ask them to re-examine the soul cluster, an excellent weapon easily comparable to the top drones and in the next patch soul cluster's damage will be increased further! Sure they are uncontrolable other then to select their targets, but that very uncontrolable nature allows a ppu to continue doing whatever they want while the SC goes off and fights... a more then equal tradeoff.
For the number of stealthing spies I see in combat, I cannot imagine why anyone would ever point to them and say NERF, op wars are still totally dominated by monks with tanks coming up as some minor form of competition, however still tanks without a monk are useless against a team of monks in a fight. I find PEs to have very close to the same abilities as tanks or spies in defense and attack respectively, even if this setup requires rare imps and a long time fine tuning, this I dislike as they approch the same level as specialists without many of their drawbacks and the specialists have very little advantage over PE's due to how many skillpoints are required to overspec items.
You are currect that ppu's are worse then stealth, but they are both far beyond what the other classes can do. Stealth enables you to avoid death, that is it's purpose. My shelter enables me to support my team (less concern about myself). You are narrowing the field to just pvp, which is really only part of neocron. In a given fight, the ppu most definitly has a larger influence and thus his defenses are a bigger issue. Does that mean noone else has balancing issues? I've said repeatedly that ppu's are primary and stealth is secondary, but they both leave the other classes in the dust.
Soul Clusters are used as a distraction. If you kill someone in pvp with a Sould Cluster then they are pretty sad. I have never ever ever ever seen a ppu use a Soul Cluster in a real fight. If you want to talk about 1on1, then yes it's useful just to occupy your enemy and slowly beat him down. I've used it like this a couple times, most often my opponent gives up and forfeits. That was when parashock did more damage though, I can't imagine doing it now. In 1on1 stealth is an enormous advantage. A stealthed player has a 500% greater chance of killing someone then a ppu does.
You are correct, there are very few spies active in fights. Thus most people don't complain. The last time I mentioned this was when true site was introduced, there were a good deal more spies around. Does player population change an imbalance? Prior to the hybrid nerf, ppu's weren't that common. Did that change the fact that we were unbalanced? Would it take a flood of spies and pe's using stealth to make it obvious?
It seems basicly most people who want stealth weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the stealther, not dying to people that stealth. I think that right there says somehting about how much stealth requires nerfing. :rolleyes:
PPU's effect on others is already being reduced. Our defenses are the next in the debate about ppu's. The most common complaint about ppu's is that they won't die. Noone would care about our boosting effect on a team if we died like other players. ie "It seems basicly most people who want *ppu* weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the *ppu*, not dying to people that *are in ppu's team*." I don't understand why you can't see stealth as similar to ppu defenses. The weakness of your character doesn't matter at all! If you consider stealth to be a defense, then sayinga spy is weak and needs stealth is the same as saying a ppu is weak without his shelter/deflector/buffs. Which is absoliutely true! Strip off my buffs and I fall down dead as fast as a spy. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon to support monk nerfs, and then when other nerfs are suggested it's outrageous.
I repeat, I don't really care what you do. I would think it better to improve the other classes to our level then to continualy nerf. But either way, we should be balanced. I fully agree with many of the ppu reductions, and there is more to be done imo. Would it be so hard to look at your own class objectively? If you disagree that stealth is unbalanced, then please try to prove me wrong. I've been wrong before and admitted it. So far the arguments for stealth are almost identical to the arguments for a ppu's mega defenses. They each allow you to live longer then otherwise possible to acomplish some goal or purpose. The ppu enhances his team, the stealther survives to come back fighting.
Originally posted by Disturbed021
Carinth I usually agree with everything you post but I disagree with everything you have to say above.
1. Yes you can avoid mobs, but the moment they see you even for a second they will target you until you zone, die or kill the mob. Its not like you can fight a mob, stealth away, heal and continue fighting.
2. Again yes if you stealth you can get to some places, but honestly I have been everywhere in this game with every character I made....using the terrain and zone lines you can get just about anywhere if you try hard enough. With the new faction guards it has changed abit tho.
3. Um AoE weapons such as Fusion Cannons and Barrels still hurt quite abit....no anti-drugs for those :p
4. Lol, sure because I have stealth I will always stay alive as long as I dont try to attack anything ever......
5. If you have 10+ ppl looking for one lone stealther and cannot wind up killing them then those 10+ ppl aren't that good tbh. As long as you stay in a group and hit the person with para and DB they are easy to track and AoE their feet even when they restealth...I know cause I have been involved in a few 5+ ppl trying to catch a stealther several times.....kind of fun imo *shug*
6. And whats the problem with a get away free card? We are talking about leaving here. Its not like they are standing around stealthed killing ppl. Spys are weak defensively and Stealth gives them an edge that they didn't have b4.
Ur comparison of a PPU vs Stealth doesn't work to me anyways.
PPU can stand there and take fire from several ppl.
Stealther has to stealth and run their asses off.
I see nothing in common for you to try to compare them in the first place. They are completely different things. Question have you played a stealther Carinth or just tried chasing them down?
I think Ehyuko summed it up pretty well;
"It seems basicly most people who want stealth weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the stealther, not dying to people that stealth. I think that right there says somehting about how much stealth requires nerfing."
Imo stealth isn't overpowered because its just used to get into or out of a fight or to a place w/o being detected, not to kill quicker.
Again I am only talking about spies here, PEs using stealth is a different argument altogether.
That's fair, I havn't used stealth myself. As a ppu, one of my jobs is to counter stealthl, so I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what it's capable of. I've also talked to several stealth users. So you could throw my entire argument off because of that : )
I was exagerating some, but I have seen stealthers do everything on that list:
1/2) Please stop saying that if a mob sees you, you are dead. That means you messed up. If you do it right, you won't be seen and pass right by the otherwise lethal mob. I've known spies and pe's that regularly sneak around MC5, and now with these faction guards they can slip around as they want. I never mentioned killing the mob or attacking it. My comparison is defensive abilities. A ppu can withstand damage while going by, a stealther can sneak by without being attacked.
3) AOE assumes you have an idea of where the stealther is at. If they let someone get close enough to shock/dmg boost/aoe then there is a good chance the stealther will die. I have seen stealthers who play smart and never let you get close enough to do this.
4) Once again, soly talking about defensive abilities. A ppu can live forever aswell if he forsakes his team and only worries about himself.
5) A 10 person group is stretching it, but spread out in a zone, I've seen this happen aswell. Damage Boost and Shock both require the target to be unstealthed near the ppu (or pe with dmg boost). So really it's only 1 person or the number of ppu's you have. Everyone else can only throw around aoe in hopes of killing the stealther. I won't say my clan is incapable of making mistakes, but I believe we're fairly competant. Yet we've spent hours chasing the one silly stealther runnin around the zone. Our best method of killing stealthers, is to use a stealther ourselves! Just like you need a ppu (and apu), to kill a ppu.
6) There's nothing wrong with a get away free card, when it's used as such. Saying stealth is soley for this, is the same as saying parashock exists soly because ppu's need to slow down attackers while they escape. While it may be used as such sometimes, the vast majority of times it's used in other ways. If you don't like the way a fight is going, stealth away, patch yourself back together, and return to the fight.
Technicly a ppu that merely stands there will die. In order to survive indefinitly a ppu needs to run. But it doesn't really matter, I'm totaly baffled how you could not see any similarities. I have fought ppu's with my team and I have fought stealthers with my team. I know personaly what a ppu is capable of, and I think I know what stealthers are capable of. Would you not agree that on the most basic level, each is a defensive mechanism? Stealth allows you to escape otherwise dying. PPU defenses allow the ppu to withstand dmg that would otherwise kill him. Going into their purpose, there are even similarities. If you consider a combat character with stealth's purpose is to kill and a ppu's purpose is to enhance the team. Stealth allows you to escape death so you can return to kill. PPU defenses allow you to worry less about yourself and concentrate on boosting your team. Do I need to go on? If your entire purpose is to be a prick and annoy a group of people you can do it with either. Continualy stealth away taunting them or taunt them while their weapons bounce off you innefectively.
How can you seriously say it's only used to leave a fight? I know that's not true, I've seen spies and pe's both do this.
Psycho Killa
19-12-03, 03:54
Honestly dont have a hard time taking down people with stealth... unless its a spy with the 30 second or longer one... thoug thats cuz i dont have aoe most the time.
Usualy in the time they unstealth you get atleast 2 or 3 seconds to really rip into them.
SHOOT THERE LEGS... Works just as well as para and u gotta heal instead of taking a pill which gives u more of a chance to nail them.
Ugh Sorry, lookin back at my posts I realized that you'd think I considered stealth the biggest imbalance in neocron and needs to be fixed right away. I don't, there are many other things that are more important in terms of balance. I didn't intend to make a big deal about it, but I enjoy a good argument and let myself be carried away : ) I have no vendetta against spies. If this is never addressed it won't be the end of the world. I've posted about many imbalances that will prolly never be fixed. What makes this argument different is it's one I tried to bring up before. I was basicly told that spies are weak and deserve anything they can get, and that evidently my nc skills are lacking. That's fine, I let the issue go and havn't talked about it until now. On seeing this thread, I realized that there was a much better argument that I could make. Rather then simply discussing why stealth should be reduced, I can make the comparison between my defenses and stealth. I seriously see stealth as the second best defense in the game currently only paled by ppu defenses. Nothing the other classes have comes close. Maybe that's how it supposed to be, but it seems odd to me to reduce ppu's and let stealth become the best defense in the game. Especialy when we have a class called Tank, which theoreticly *should* have the better defense so that they can tank damage while the weaker classes attack. Is that not what the warrior type does in most other rpg's?
Imo though we shouldn't be nerfing at all. The other classes should be boosted. If that's going to high, then there would certainly be a common ground we could reach. Reduce us some, and boost others to make us balanced. Honestly I'm envious of stealthers, I wish I could do that. I've been tempted to reroll to spy just so I can stealth. Each class should have something like this, which makes them unique in their own way. (no i dont mean ppus should get stealth, we have our shelters)
In a given fight, the ppu most definitly has a larger influence and thus his defenses are a bigger issue
One of my main points in the comparison of stealth to a ppu's buffs and heals. A stealther has nowhere near the influence on a fight [as a spy] as a ppu's abilities give him. It's certainly true a [spy] stealther has much greater chance to kill a target, however this is only true when it's one-on-one and the other one isn't a ppu. If a stealther had a signifigant effect on combat similar to how overpowering ppus used to be there would be loads of threads complaining of this fact as evidenced by ppu nerf threads.
[/QUOTE]
I don't understand why you can't see stealth as similar to ppu defenses
This is because ppus have many abilities besides defending themselves, stealth can only be used on one's self and once activated the person using stealth forfeits all other abilities on themselves AS WELL AS others. If I could stealth and shoot or stealth and heal/hack/whatever it MIGHT be considered overpowered depending on how effective that action was, obviously shooting would be totally overpowering, however a stealther can do none of these things. Compared to a ppu this is nothing, in fact considering the availability of armour to spies and their con, stealth exists as the ONLY thing available to make them as effective in combat as other classes, every other class has far more armour and con WITH a slightly to greatly increased damage output then spies except in the case of ppus whom get excessive defense through armour, buffs and heals.
You are correct, there are very few spies active in fights.
The reason I bring this up is that everytime some class is considered more powerful then another, many people switch to these classes to take advantage of their unbalance. This is why when tanks were the most effective in combat there were huge numbers in tanks, when hybrids became apparently the most powerful class, many people made successful hybrids, similarly with pistol PE's with blacksuns, and currently apus with some ppu support. Stealth is obviously not overpowering the spy class as can be evidenced by the lack of new spies in combat roles, if stealth was seriously overpowered and it was obvious in the way the classes I previously mentioned were then logically there would be a large influx of spies whom could play this role effectively because of the overpowered nature of stealth.
ie "It seems basicly most people who want *ppu* weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the *ppu*, not dying to people that *are in ppu's team*."
A slight mistake on your part Carinth, I meantioned only the stealther himself, not the team, because as a stealther, you have no way of actively supporting your team while stealthed besides scouting and once stealthed you have effectively removed the stealther from any combat assistance you could provide the team. In this respect ppus and stealthers differ greatly, a ppu can still support their team in killing others or preventing their teammates from dying, but a stealther can only protect themselves through stealthing... and even then AoE weapons, DoT weapons and other psi effects exist to counter stealthers - a far cry from the apu's antibuff ability... imagine if every class had the ability to antibuff a ppu given some time, an idea which when proposed I and many others disliked because of how weak it would make ppus.
I would also like to mention that when stealthed the team you are a part of has no idea where you are, in which sense stealth is as much as a hinderance as a blessing.
I repeat, I don't really care what you do. I would think it better to improve the other classes to our level then to continualy nerf. But either way, we should be balanced. I fully agree with many of the ppu reductions, and there is more to be done imo. Would it be so hard to look at your own class objectively? If you disagree that stealth is unbalanced, then please try to prove me wrong. I've been wrong before and admitted it. So far the arguments for stealth are almost identical to the arguments for a ppu's mega defenses. They each allow you to live longer then otherwise possible to acomplish some goal or purpose. The ppu enhances his team, the stealther survives to come back fighting
I feel that stealth does not overpower spies nor does it have few ways of being countered in a similar respect that ppu's defenses do NOR does it provide any assistance or enhancement to another player that allows them to be more effective then they would be solo.
I also believe in class balancing, however considering the defenses and damage output of spies [and including the clipping plane], stealth is at least not overpowered for spies [quite the opposite]. Again comparing to a monk, spies need even more skill points in a useless skill [tech combat] which detracts from both their mobility and combat effectiveness, at least a monk only needs to sacrifice their attack/buffing ability slightly using mental steadiness with no reduction on their movement/dex tradeskill effectiveness and the sacrifice they make is much lower then that of a spy wanting to use ONLY the second level of stealth [TC 95], considering the third and fourth levels of stealth require 105 and 120 TC respectively, consider how much combat effectiveness a monk would lose to have to have 105 or 120 mental steadiness in order to cast holy level buffs and heals... on only themselves! This doesn't even take into consideration the hit spies take in their movement rate due to the sacrifice of agility to TC.
Again, the comparison of a spy stealther to a ppu is fundimentally flawed and even if there WAS some comparison there exists far more counters to stealth, usable by ANY class, then are available to counter a ppus defenses on themselves or others. THAT is the reason ppus were nerfed, not simply because they were slightly difficult to kill by solo players.
no drug effect or anything, I think it should just have a recharge time between each use. stelath 1 5 second recharge time count it out, 1...2...3...4...5 stelath 2 7 seconds, 3 10 seconds. This wasy people could still get by dangerous guards and stuff, but not be invonerable pvp.
i voted nerf it, but i think impairment is a bit extreme.
In comparison, the spies stealth and the PPU's shelter and deflector are like a ghillie suit compared to the armor of a battle tank.
Seriously no one could argue a stealthed spy could serve as a damage sponge like a PPU or a tank. This means stealthers don't have the second best defenses.
Alright, I can accept that, Ehyuko. I was focused entirely on defensive abilities. If you consider that in relation to what else the character can do, then yes stealth would seem much more balanced. PPU's have way to many jobs to fill.
My other point though was that both ppu's and stealth are way ahead of anything the other classes can do. I don't think defensive power can really be rationed like it is now. It's something that everyone needs. It's alright for the ppu to have better defenses then a Tank, I suppose, but not as ridiculously strong as they are now. I believe Tanks should get something, like the Portable Shield idea that QD put up in the test server forum. In their own way, each class should have an effective way to defend themselves.
Originally posted by Mangus
In comparison, the spies stealth and the PPU's shelter and deflector are like a ghillie suit compared to the armor of a battle tank.
Seriously no one could argue a stealthed spy could serve as a damage sponge like a PPU or a tank. This means stealthers don't have the second best defenses.
I guess that depends on what you consider a defense. I don't agree that defense is purely damage soaking ability. Defense is any mechanism that prevents death/injury. For the ppu, not only can we withstand more then other classes, we also have an incredible Heal which outdoes most people's damage capabilities. I consider the heal to be the true defensive power for ppu's. Stealth lets you vanish and run away, with a good chance of loosing your enemy completely. Would you not consider this a defensive mechanism? In the end they both mean your character stays alive. I say it's the second most powerful defense, because I can not think of something non stealthers and non ppu's can do that would defend them better. A Tank for example has his damage soaking abilities and runspeed, which are hardly better then stealth.
Of course you are correct in that ppus, spies and PEs have effective forms of defense in heals and stealth, however I'd perfer not to see tanks or apus get a greater damage soaking capacity as tanks already have excellent defense but lack any way of leaving combat and apus already also have excellent armour available but no means of healing. If these two issues were adressed then I could not see how the classes could be balanced more defensively [excluding the continuing useless armour for spies outside the PA and a belt, which would DEFINATELY require some form of upgrade even if other classes do not gain a method of leaving combat].
Further it would be nice to see the weapon balancing that Callash was planning implemented, it still seems that drones and rifles as distance weapons have been lost in pistol/tank/apu weapons combined with runspeed and range. After all if all weapons types have amonst them the choice of a weapon with the effective distance of the 'long range' weapons due to clipping plane issues and positional update lag, there really isn't much point is having one weapon group's bonus being a longer range to compensate for lower damage and RoF [and higher skill level requirements]. At least not until these problems are resolved.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
It seems basicly most people who want stealth weakened are those that are having a hard time KILLING the stealther, not dying to people that stealth. I think that right there says somehting about how much stealth requires nerfing. :rolleyes: Yep - that's been true from the day stealth was introduced, and it's still true now.
Stealth is fine.
You can't use a weapon during stealth so whats the problem?
Just because you couldn't PK some weak ass spy?
Get a PPU with TSS and your sorted!
I used stealth the other day to run away from 12 bloody SS that were chasing me. I managed to hide and keep going into stealth until they gave up looking for me.
Circular arguments going here :rolleyes:
I don't agree with a stealth nerf.
Just because your pride is bruised when you can't kill someone, its not a valid reason for a stealth nerf.
If someone stealths away when you tried to kill them then tough ... its Neocron where people can gank you or cheat you. Deal with it! :p
i have only been able to use stealth recently but find it helps keep my Spy alive.
Yes, I can understand the negative aspects when someone is trying to kill you, we can stealth away and heal, but if we didnt we would be dead! i guess this would be annoying for you.... but in the meantime, you can heal and re-arm and wait...
My experience goes like this, enemy approaches and opens fire, usually the first couple of hits takes my health down a bit but added to this, my movement is severly restricted as any damage seems to affect my ability to walk fast. Now if I stood there and attacked I would die first (90% of the time), so I stealth, try and get some distance between me and the attacker and try again, but this time with range on my side.... this is what a rifle spy does, we need stealth. Before I could stealth I was a sitting duck, any warzone/anarchy zone was certain death but now I have a chance to at least get away...
Do not nerf the stealth..........
Stealth is fine.
You can't use a weapon during stealth so whats the problem?
Just because you couldn't PK some weak ass spy?
Get a PPU with TSS and your sorted!
haha i can see you have used a TSS manymany times from that comment :rolleyes:
stealth is the most annoying thing in the game for me, i have no gripe with a spy having it, after all they have shite defences unless they are tuned very finely.
But a PE gets maximum defence excellent ofence and as carinth put it " a get out of jail free card"
Vet suggestion for delay in re-use time, is probably the best idea and one that i would fully support being implimented
Originally posted by Carinth
...
I guess that depends on what you consider a defense. I don't agree that defense is purely damage soaking ability. Defense is any mechanism that prevents death/injury....
This is why I make a difference between stealth and shelter:
Defense is the ability to resist attack - a tank or PPU does this.
Stealth is the equivalent of camouflage, it gives the ability to evade attack - a stealther dies at the same rate, if hit.
Classes resisting attack can return fire while under attack. Stealthers can just run and take some drugs, hoping they will not be hit by any AoE or plasma salvo.
As it turns out, the survivability of stealthing spies is second only to PPUs. Surviving a battle however, does not mean winning it, or at least contributing to the effort. This is why stealth should not be likened to the defense of a PPU or tank.
Jesterthegreat
19-12-03, 14:10
Originally posted by stigmata
Vet suggestion for delay in re-use time, is probably the best idea and one that i would fully support being implimented
this idea has been suggested since the day it was implemented... im a stealther spy (will only ever use stealth 1 though) and i wholeheartedly agree there should be a reuse timer.
of course i think there should be a recast timer on para - making it a slow cast isnt a good move IMO, make it normal cast speed... but a delay between casts... dunno if this could even be implemented though
Originally posted by stigmata
But a PE gets maximum defence excellent ofence and as carinth put it " a get out of jail free card" So would this topic deserve a title more like "make Stealth higher Reqs for PE's"?
I am a PE and i can only use Stealth 1. And it isn't all that good. If someone catches me off guard and i go into stealth i can hardly walk and as it doesn't last long i am most likely to be dead as soon as i come out of stealth.
ffs.... do you people really have a problem killing a PE with stealth one? You do realise that if we are poisoned or flamed and we stealth that we can't actually outheal that damage... so we pretty much always die if we have more than three stacks on us after a fight.
Also if you hit with HLs, the RoF is so fast and it doesn't require a LoS that I have actually been hit twice once my stealth is on.... and against an APU I'm normally poisoned as well.... so that another 100hp down with three or more stacks of poison on me... and I can't heal.
Another thing, when I'm para'd, DB'd or poisoned people can follow me very easily. Ten seconds is a surprisingly short time when you are trying to get away from certain death.
Stop whining, move the fuck away from me PE and get some skills to kill her.
Jesterthegreat
19-12-03, 14:46
Originally posted by Judge
ffs.... do you people really have a problem killing a PE with stealth one? You do realise that if we are poisoned or flamed and we stealth that we can't actually outheal that damage... so we pretty much always die if we have more than three stacks on us after a fight.onoz... you can outheal it? you mean you may take damage? sucks to be you... oh and tbh if 3 stacks of fire or poison brings you to near death... time to lom my friend. my spy survives fire / poison better than that
Also if you hit with HLs, the RoF is so fast and it doesn't require a LoS that I have actually been hit twice once my stealth is on.... we all have this problem... stealthing or hiding or running... we all have this in some form or another
and against an APU I'm normally poisoned as well.... so that another 100hp down with three or more stacks of poison on me... and I can't heal.
Another thing, when I'm para'd, DB'd or poisoned people can follow me very easily. Ten seconds is a surprisingly short time when you are trying to get away from certain death.
im an uncapped spy with stealth 1 and no anti-drugs. i manage to outlive everyone but PPU's
Stop whining, move the fuck away from me PE and get some skills to kill her.
yes... right... O_o
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
onoz... you can outheal it? you mean you may take damage? sucks to be you... oh and tbh if 3 stacks of fire or poison brings you to near death... time to lom my friend. my spy survives fire / poison better than that
I mean AFTER i have been hit with HL five times... of course 3 stacks of poison doesn't kill me on its own. pfft.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
we all have this problem... stealthing or hiding or running... we all have this in some form or another im an uncapped spy with stealth 1 and no anti-drugs. i manage to outlive everyone but PPU's
I was pointing out that whilst stealthed you are not invincible and there are lots of things that can kill you.
Shadow Dancer
19-12-03, 14:53
Originally posted by Judge
I mean AFTER i have been hit with HL five times... of course 3 stacks of poison doesn't kill me on its own. pfft.
Drugs are nice. :)
Jesterthegreat
19-12-03, 14:53
Originally posted by Judge
I mean AFTER i have been hit with HL five times... of course 3 stacks of poison doesn't kill me on its own. pfft.
ok then :D
I was pointing out that whilst stealthed you are not invincible and there are lots of things that can kill you.
Ten seconds is a surprisingly short time when you are trying to get away from certain death.
its a short time (apparently) so no prob - heal will come soon enough?
the only time i stealth is when im jumped while leveling - i dont need the hassle - and when i wanna be an annoying shit at op wars :p
either way... without stealth im a certain kill... stealth is a big advantage... whether you agree or not
Go lowtech, youll see how easy it is to survive without stealth.
Yes it is a bit advantage but I don't think that it is overpowering... except stealth 2 one PEs... which is why I mentioned that from 2 upwards it should be spy only... and that various other anti-stealth measures should be boosted/made.... but no-one wanted to listen to BOOSTING propositions right? Everyone just wants nerfage.
I see what people meant when they said that the people on this forum wouldn't rest on APUs/PPUs....
Anyway... I have to finish of my paper round so, buh bye
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
time to lom my friend. Make all PE's Cookie Cut?
meh
Stealth 1 is viable to PE's. And so it should be just like all the other lower level items. THey should have access to all as the are the average all rounder
what the frag?
A APU monk whining about stealth?.. geez what moronic APU can't kill a stealther, regardless of how long they are stealthed you hit them with HL etc several times after they have stealthed... (trust me i know)
quit moaning and learn how to hunt stealthers..
Game is about fun , many ppl like stealth so stop moaning about a stupid stealth , stealth wont kill ya ffs... There annoying but there a part of the game so nerf nerf yawn yawn...
Mangus - I would agree with you, except they are both defenses. Does it really matter whether you absorb damage or avoid it? Either way you won't be killed. Both do indeed prevent or at least greatly lesson your combat abilities. Obviously stealth prevents drawing a weapon. When my damage soaking abilities are put to the test, I am less likely to be supporting my team. That's my contribution to the team and using my defense lessens it. Just the same as Stealth lessens your killing people. In both situations though you can survive and run away to recooperate.
I would like to note that everyone keeps saying how weak spies are and how fast they would die without stealth. Well I'm weak too. Don't believe me? Get an apu to debuff me and see how much damage I take. Look at most Apu's, the ones that go around without ppu's attached at the hip. Their strategies mainly involve running, if you catch them they die. Monks and Spies have roughly the same con, I think spies even have more. Psi armor is indeed very good and may make up some for this, but it's hardly enough. I would seriously be suprised to find out that a Monk without buffs is that much stronger then a spy. Both of our classes are the weak classes in Neocron. Monks use psi to make up for it, Spies use inteligence and technology. It's silly to compare yourself without defenses with someone who has their defenses up. As a ppu, I have hunted both spies and apus. Spies can escape me with stealth, apu's might get lucky with a antibuff but more likely they will just die.
lol, this is totaly identical to the ppu threads. One group demanding a nerf, One group trying to logicly discuss it, and the other group demanding everything is fine.
If no stealther ever comes back to combat after having stealthed, then I would have no problem with it. So he ran away? oh well, good for him. What annoys the hell out of me is when he doesn't leave. If you return to combat after having stealthed, then you are not using stealth as an escape. You are using it as a combat strategy to keep fighting. Again I repeat, this is the same as a PPU with parashock. It was originaly used to keep Tanks and other's at a distance. Melee hurt quite a bit, so a Tank was scary. The ppu shock's hostiles and then runs away safely. There's nothing wrong with this, if shock is removed I would like to still have something that replaces it to do this. Of late though, it's rarely used just for defense. The ppu shocks hostiles whenever he sees them, not just when he's trying to run away. Now you've crossed the line and shock becomes a problem. Exactly the same with stealth! Escaping from a fight = good , Repeatedly coming back to continue fight = bad.
So far only two arguments have been made against me.
1) I'm a spy, I'm weak, don't nerf me, I didn't read any of the previous posts nor do I care about logic (majority goes here)
2) Ehyuko brought up that it's not just the defense that matters. When you consider how many roles the ppu and spy have, you see that the spy has little else besides stealth. His contribution to the team is much less then the ppu. I don't particularly like this, but I will agree. A spy with stealth is an annoyance, a ppu with shelters ruins pvp.
In my opinion though, balancing is not brought about by giving the needy one huge power. Sure in comparison with that one item, they may still not be as powerful as me. Does that mean the power is ok? Don't forget it does make you more powerful then others aside from me. Does your existance as a weak spy justify any improvement nomatter what? Well that's what happened to monks, several times. We are reduced to a pathetic state in which monks are a joke. Then eventualy we're giving boosts and suddenly we're the best class ever. Then we get knocked down again and back up. Tanks were the dominant lifeform for a good while, now they're fairly pathetic. Does that mean Tanks should ge the BFG from Doom?
Eh, I'm done with this thread. Just repeating arguments now.
Originally posted by Judge
ffs.... do you people really have a problem killing a PE with stealth one? You do realise that if we are poisoned or flamed and we stealth that we can't actually outheal that damage... so we pretty much always die if we have more than three stacks on us after a fight.
Also if you hit with HLs, the RoF is so fast and it doesn't require a LoS that I have actually been hit twice once my stealth is on.... and against an APU I'm normally poisoned as well.... so that another 100hp down with three or more stacks of poison on me... and I can't heal.
Another thing, when I'm para'd, DB'd or poisoned people can follow me very easily. Ten seconds is a surprisingly short time when you are trying to get away from certain death.
Stop whining, move the fuck away from me PE and get some skills to kill her.
Sorry, but not everybody in this world plays a monk. Show me a PE who died recently to a tank with CS because I would very much like to laugh at said PE.
Half of the players in this game stealth, and you're saying just get a PPU and thats the fix?
Sorry, having a PPU with you 24/7 is not only 110% pansy, its also unrealistic.
Originally posted by Scikar
Sorry, but not everybody in this world plays a monk. Show me a PE who died recently to a tank with CS because I would very much like to laugh at said PE. Wait what? Are you saying a PE who dies to a CS toting tank doesn't have any skill? Thats news to me...
Clownst0pper
19-12-03, 21:13
Wasnt there something in some old retail patch notes that said
"stealth now gives a mild drug effect after each use?"
Look through the notes, its there!
Sadly, It might be there, but KK never made it work ;)
Originally posted by Jest
Wait what? Are you saying a PE who dies to a CS toting tank doesn't have any skill? Thats news to me...
A PE who has the option of stealth should never die to a tank with a CS in a 1v1. If a PE duels against a tank when stealth is not allowed, then the PE is at something of a disadvantage, due to the power of the CS. If the PE has the option of stealth then he simply should not die. It's possible to survive 3 full CS clips as a PE. You can also cast a heal in the time it takes to reload a CS. Finally, CS cannot hurt you at all if you are stealthed. Put those together and it's hard to find an excuse as to how you could be killed in a chance 1v1 encounter with a CS tank.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Wasnt there something in some old retail patch notes that said
"stealth now gives a mild drug effect after each use?"
Look through the notes, its there!
Sadly, It might be there, but KK never made it work ;) It seems to be erratically variable.
Some people never get it, some people sometimes get it, some people always get it.
Personally I get it somewhere under half the time - it's a bonus when it doesn't kick in for whatever reason, but when it does occur it's never a big drug flash effect and doesn't get worse the more you stealth, so I just work through it and live with the dimmed vision and occasional stagger.
However - it seems to multiply the flash effect of other drugs quite badly.
Using the new generation advanced "anti" drugs now while stealthed and I get a bitch of a drug haze - roughly equivalent to Whiteflash comedown.
Clownst0pper
19-12-03, 21:47
I never get any drugged screen on stealth or if Ive been popping redflashes for hours.
Never have O_o :eek:
OMG H4X!
Seriously, never had them. the only time I get them is if i use the +3 serumdiot dex drug thing, which I avoid and dont get them :confused:
look, theres no argument... if you are good, you are unkillable with stealth as long as theres no ppu with true sight sanctom around. I remeber having like 5- 10 mercs following me in different situations pking at mb, and i just stealth, run, come back pick off a tank or apu thats strayed from the group, they all see me again, i stealth again, run heal come back, pick another off, etc. The only time I go down is when they pull out their tss ppu. I think stealth is too good. Would a timer between each stealthing REALLY be that bad? it would mean you still have a good chance of escaping, but not so invonerable. Stealth should be a tool for 1) sneak attack 2) qa chance to get away, not to be unkillable. Try fighting a sniper spy some day, when as most people dont, you dont have a tss ppu with you. and he shoots once, stealths runs repeat over and over. Its the most annoying thing ever. please... put a timer between stealhings.
-=Blasehase=-
19-12-03, 23:09
Originally posted by kurai
Using the new generation advanced "anti" drugs now while stealthed and I get a bitch of a drug haze - roughly equivalent to Whiteflash comedown.
whiteflash has a drugflash?
hum?
i take for about 1 million NC drugs in a week, and whiteflash alone doesnt make a drugflash to me :D
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