View Full Version : The PE PAs are crap
Remove em from the game. PEs dont need em and dont deserve
em. They only serve to unbalance the PE class and give us a
amount of dex we shouldnt be able to reach that easily, stealth 2
and rolh is overpowered in the hands of a class with this much
defence. For the PE class every point matters in a way only Spies
will understand, the extra P-C points and dex makes such a huge
difference that it aint funny, it brings a whole new level to the
people who really tweak their stats to the max.
Overpowered.
Freaky Deaky
15-12-03, 17:54
first time i see an "overpowered" PE thread...
interesting and true...
imho it`s the stealth that makes the pe`s too strong
(hopefully you meant it not ironically :rolleyes: )
edit: you brake a rule.... the tactics of the PE`s in this forum is to cry about their disadvantages... so no one cares about thinking to nerf em
;)
LMFAO
this is a thread i didnt expect from rade :lol:
The PE PA does make it too easy to make a ROLH or stealth 2 setup. PE's have the best defence apart from a PPU, no denying that, and stealth only improves that, stealth 2 is rediculous ontop of that, imagine a PPU dissapearing for 22 seconds when your close to killing them ?
Anyway, A) it looks ugly B) it makes the best weapons reachable alot more easily, without any drugs required . . .
Stealth 1 is fine, its very easy to get around and nail the player
using stealth 1 with dbs and parashock, but the leap between
stealth 1 and 2 is huge, with stealth 2 you can pull off some
absolutely crazy stunts.
ZoneVortex
15-12-03, 17:58
well just be unique and don't wear it then...my PE didn't wear it before i quit nc and i could still kill any PE i encountered in tech haven battles whether they were wearin PA 4 and a RoLH or whatever
I am, struck me today how overpowered it is and now Im not
using it anymore. Still doesnt solve anything.
Original monk
15-12-03, 18:03
indeed true true: especially the stealth (i suggest put the spy restriction on ALL stealthtools, so no more stealthing away at 10 hp for PE's, or ya give tanks also stealth one hehe :P)
no comments no more/ 5stars
enjoy playing and posting threads :)
{MD}GeistDamnit
15-12-03, 18:05
Originally posted by Rade
Remove em from the game. PEs dont need em and dont deserve
em. They only serve to unbalance the PE class and give us a
amount of dex we shouldnt be able to reach that easily, stealth 2
and rolh is overpowered in the hands of a class with this much
defence. For the PE class every point matters in a way only Spies
will understand, the extra P-C points and dex makes such a huge
difference that it aint funny, it brings a whole new level to the
people who really tweak their stats to the max.
Overpowered.
it's not the pe pa. it is stealth. make stealth a spy ONLY tool. Pe's have tank defence with their self buffs, having stealth is what makes them too powerfull.
i remember using an uncapped rolh on my spy on pluto and thought it was FAR too powerfull for a pe to use, atleast not as easily as it is and with the defence they can get
How can you afford to use all those dex imps to get pa 4 and spend so much in t-c without completely negating due to your damage on said weapons.
I have a capped rifle pe which i haven't touched/chanced since well before the pe pa's were introduced. He has exactly 98 dex for use of rog and 170 r-c which allows him to cap damage on it.
I have a pistol pe which i started 2 weeks ago and he's 1 dex away from cap but i'm finding its hard enough to get him setup well for using lib and blacksun. My lib freq is ony 327/min which is still low.
Do you have ALL you INT in weapon lore to compensate?
Also as far as stealth 2 goes i was very close to not using that on my spy either as i wanted to cap damage and get as good a freq on my disruptor as possible.
The 95 t-c is alot of points to place there and you can't use the dist comp 3 to get there either as you need all dex imps in to get pa4 and rohl. Sounds too much like gimpage to me, i'm prob wrong though.
Also i hate relying on drugs or my rifle/comabt booster to use things cos they always run out at a bad time. :wtf:
Make Stealth Spy Only, problem solved.
Psyco Groupie
15-12-03, 18:12
PE's arent exactly or ever were jack of all trades .. they may have skill todo all sorts of things but their strength lies in using them all at once!
Just leave them.
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 18:16
Make stealth spy only, lvl 1 at int 80 keep the tc the same.
Remove main stat bonus from PEPA?
Increase the PC/RC bonus?
ghandisfury
15-12-03, 18:30
PEs are fine. If you remove stealth, you need to give them something else to play with.
I agree with duder PE's doesnt need stealth , they can even take more damage then a tank. Make spies the only who can use stealth...stealth is something special and Pe shoud be ''average''
Not sure about overpowered but he is right in the fact that you get a mad boost from it. I mean it was easy to give my resists a boost with that and it allow for better stats on pistols.
PEs don't deserve stealth, they don't need it, and it's a spy toy really.
And yay! I'm not the only PE on pluto anymore that doesn't use PE PA!
Getting rid of stealth would be highly dissappointing as its one of the main reasons I keep my PE around. I dont have a cookie cutter setup. I dont use a Blacksun, I dont use PE PA, I sure as hell dont use stealth 2, I dont have an SA, and my psi skill points are dramatically different than every one elses, and I like it that way.
PEs got a big enough blow as it is from the new rare flamers since we have to spec for poison now. Our shelters will do dick against that damage.
If stealth was made spy only I wouldnt bitch but like I said its one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. And Rade, I seem to remember you saying yourself that the reason you even came back to Neocron was to use stealth. Has that changed?
And I'm not saying the above because I am being selfish want to stay uber or something, cause I don't give a damn what people say PEs are not overpowered. Losing stealth would set us back 7 months of class balance and would be a definite step in the wrong direction.
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 18:36
Resists/armour vise viper or titan is better, but mainstat and PC/RC might be a bit much, and allows lomming to tc for stealth 2 which is NOT a PE weapon.
Pe shoud be ''average''
Dont _ even _ bother
PE's ARENT JOAT, you CAN specialise and they shouldnt just be 'average' at everything.
Go stand in a corner and think about what you said.
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 18:42
Originally posted by Jest
PEs got a big enough blow as it is from the new rare flamers since we have to spec for poison now. Our shelters will do dick against that damage.
I don't give a damn what people say PEs are not overpowered. Losing stealth would set us back 7 months of class balance and would be a definite step in the wrong direction.
I don't think we would loose class balance that much, if PEs lost stealth, or stealth 1 was made say TC-95.
But with that and the emergance of poison as a more viable and common damage type i think that shelter or deflector need to provide defence against it.
yeah Jest, I've already started lomming my setup for that damn devourer, wouldn't be so bad if shelters worked against poison=/ I wouldn't even mind if APU poison was boosted alot if shelters affected poison :(
ghandisfury
15-12-03, 18:47
Originally posted by evs
Dont _ even _ bother
PE's ARENT JOAT, you CAN specialise and they shouldnt just be 'average' at everything.
Go stand in a corner and think about what you said.
Exactly. If they were supposed to be "average" then they would have 65 in all stats. Or be able to use heavy weapons (yes, like the CS) or good APU/PPU spells etc. We were made for close combat, and top speeds. With the rare flamer, and the insane amount of damage that HL/FA any any other APU spell, you're get the "average" amount of damage from the PE.
Litteraly PEs are the only truely balanced class.
Before doing away with PE PA entirely I would try having it give either a small pc/rc bonus OR a small +dex bonus. The PE was a pretty well balanced class before PA, but if you do away with the PE PA altogether they may be a little behind. A PE setup balances on just a few points, so throwing loads of +pc/rc and a bunch of +dex with a negligible side effect was probably a bit much.
As it stands, though, a pistol PE can get nearly the same offense as a spy (assuming the spy is smart and goes for an Inq 1 setup) with way, way more defense. Something isn't quite right about that :wtf:
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 18:52
Hmmm I quite like that idea......
Remove the Main stat bonuses/mali from PEPA for a few more PC/RC?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Hmmm I quite like that idea......
Remove the Main stat bonuses/mali from PEPA for a few more PC/RC? I dont know if that would fix the problem. When I was using PE PA I didnt even need the extra dex bonus so doing a fix like this would have only made me supposedly more uber than before.
I dont think PEs should lose stealth, its the only thing that make
them unique and if you remove that Tanks are just better straight
across, and a combat specced spy will be almost as good as a PE
and have stealth on top of that. The problem comes with the
ease to get ubar weapons such as RoLH and stealth 2 and
still having good resists and health. I have played this setup for
quite some time now and I think most of you know what Im
talking about. I do consider myself to be probably one of the best
players around yes, but the stealth 2 just adds too much
versatility with too little loss. If there were no PA then you would
have to do major sacrifices to reach stealth 2, as it is now you
dont.
**edit: Imo the PE PA should have alot more negatives, like a
bunch of negative psi power, ppu and more negative psi while we
are at it. Then you have to decide, good heal and ease of
recasting shelter or sucky heal and having to remove it to shelter.
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 18:56
Originally posted by Morris
Before doing away with PE PA entirely I would try having it give either a small pc/rc bonus OR a small +dex bonus. The PE was a pretty well balanced class before PA, but if you do away with the PE PA altogether they may be a little behind. A PE setup balances on just a few points, so throwing loads of +pc/rc and a bunch of +dex with a negligible side effect was probably a bit much.
As it stands, though, a pistol PE can get nearly the same offense as a spy (assuming the spy is smart and goes for an Inq 1 setup) with way, way more defense. Something isn't quite right about that :wtf:
A spy is probably quite dumb to go pistols, but a RoLH in the hands of one is quite nasty.
That gun is not a PE weapon, it IS too powerfull.
Spys can get nearly PE lvl armour resist values, but their Shelter/Deflector are weaker.
Spys could probably do with a few boosts to their guns.
Restricting PEs to Judge/libby/bs kinda caps the maximum damage output.
FL clip being made to 40 is a good start.
//edit:
If there were no PA then you would
have to do major sacrifices to reach stealth 2, as it is now you
dont.
Make stealth 2 int 80?
dont nerf my pistol PE before i even get it leveled ;\
ffs...im so sick of all the nerf 'this' nerf 'that'...
when KK try to nerf things, the game USUALLY decreases it's fun level....so i wish everyone would quit whining... ;\
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 19:00
It's not nerfing, it's responding to a problem that was previously unforseen. :p
You want to kill a PE with stealth? Hit him with a few fast HL shots, hit him with poison (spell or that new rare flamer) or parashock him.... with the new parapshock how far do you think we can get in 10 seconds?
So PPUs, APUs and Tanks all have ways of killing a PE with stealth or at least tracking him for others to kill ( the PPU) so whats the point in taking it away? Alot of PEs are PEs because its fun to have stealth. Also I have always said that Spies should have a way of seeing through steath, either with a tool or an eye, heat sensitive or something.
Yeah PE PA is overpowered, I couldn't care less if you removed it.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
FL clip being made to 40 is a good start.
Fl clip is 20, the ammo packs are 40. Doesnt help anyway, that guns still shit.
About the PE thing...mmh make stealth 2 spy only. About RolH , i dunno, it definatly is too strong for a PE gun. Maybe make it spy only too? Cant see any other way, cause removing PAs would be mean.
But i like this idea PA giving more negs to crew their defense a bit....
/edit
And WTF is is this "hit em with that new rare flamer, they got no por resists, they have to nerf the other resists!". Thats shit. Its a tank powerup to balance those. Also its not like every tank will be running around with one tomorrow. o_O
"Just use the rare flamer then the PE will not stealth away"
mmkkaaay if you give me a rare flamer I'll do it..But it's one of the most valuable items in game at the moment, and with 300+ techparts it's not like it's easy to get?
Imo PEs need a little less offense and a little less defense, I don't know the solution tho. Also I think Stealth 1 is enough for them, I am not sure though, if the anti-stealth drug worked it would be another story.
Um no. Every ray of last hope PE ive fought is a joke. They just have no resists. all dex and weapon boosting imps they drop like flies, and rays damage doesnt make up for it. PEs are not overpowered. I think ray weapons are a bit too good, damage never missing and aim speed , but thats it. If ray weapons get a nerf problem solved. a good tank has equal chance of beating a good pe. So does an apu, even without a ppu. Things are fine, leave it.
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 19:20
Originally posted by Xizor
Imo PEs need a little less offense and a little less defense, I don't know the solution tho. Also I think Stealth 1 is enough for them, I am not sure though, if the anti-stealth drug worked it would be another story.
PE offence, when compared with the other combat classes, a bit crap. which is why they have the best defence.
I think PE defence/offence is balanced.
Untill that is, you introduce RoLH and Stealth 2.
Increasing the stats on stealth 2, either a very large TC boost, or INT increased to spy lvl.
Stealth 1 is ok... just but even lvl 1 and rolh is too much.
Remove the dex boost from PEPA and you dramatically reduce the viability of the rolh.
Or, just exchange the ROLH reqs with the Executioner.
steweygrrr
15-12-03, 20:13
Originally posted by evs
Dont _ even _ bother
PE's ARENT JOAT, you CAN specialise and they shouldnt just be 'average' at everything.
Go stand in a corner and think about what you said.
Read the PE blurb next time you make one and see what it says about them mkay?
Its a long trip for the average guy though
Originally posted by steweygrrr
Read the PE blurb next time you make one and see what it says about them mkay?
That the one that says spies get better psi? Or indeed that tanks are 'unable to develop psi capabilities'. The one that was written ages ago, before specialisation made 'average' basically the same as 'crap'? Or did we get a new set of blurbs that're actually up to date with the game as it is?
("Its a long trip for the average guy though" - PEs reach their cap, and thus optimal performance, before pretty much all others)
Peeping Tom
15-12-03, 20:43
make RolH Dex 110+
K4F
Dribble Joy
15-12-03, 20:44
Originally posted by Peeping Tom
make RolH Dex 110+
K4F
Or remove PEPA dex bonus.
Originally posted by VetteroX
Um no. Every ray of last hope PE ive fought is a joke. They just have no resists. all dex and weapon boosting imps they drop like flies, and rays damage doesnt make up for it. PEs are not overpowered. I think ray weapons are a bit too good, damage never missing and aim speed , but thats it. If ray weapons get a nerf problem solved. a good tank has equal chance of beating a good pe. So does an apu, even without a ppu. Things are fine, leave it.
Pfft, I have played a RoLH/stealth 2 PE for quite some time now,
defence is great, damage even better and the stealth owns
everything. Its just too much.
I dont have a problem with PEs using stealth 2, I dont have a
problem with PEs using RoLH, I have a problem with PEs using
both so easily and getting so good stats at the same time.
For example, if the PE PAs didnt give any DEX but still gave the
P-C/R-C they would still be great and but you would have to work
to get a setup with those powerfull objects. If the PE PA would
have serious negative psi subskill negatives it would be a hassle
to use it and you wouldnt be able to heal very good with it on. Or
you could just have the drawback of PE PA being psi amp -1, IE
you cant cast spells with it on, you have to remove it, which
would also be a suitable problem. Then there would be choice
instead of just stupidly overpowered.
And btw, I take about the same amount from the new rare flamer
as I do from a CS, its all about how you spec.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Or remove PEPA dex bonus.
This is probably the best solution IMO, then you could also
remove the negative PSI, which would make it easier to use for
example psi boots or tl35 deflector. It would still be a friggin
great piece of armor, good resist and good skills.
Hell yeah remove it, only PEs I seam to run into are them fekkin cookie cutter RoLH PEs ..
give them somthing to work the hell out like a setup with more thought..
I had a capped rifle PE, used PA4 before the patch used SA/SF/DIST3/EXPballistic3/exp reflex4. I had 108 dex without even using drugs 189 RC and enuf TC to use stealth 2.....coupled with some drugs and just a RC1 I could cap dmg and get 222/min ROF on a first love.....put a RC3 on that instead of RC1 and i would totally cap it....granted without the PP resist and move on for that extra con and HP i wasnt as "uber" in the con setup field but with a shelter and stealth 2 it wasnt ever really neccisary.....PEs the truly balanced class? not even close...theyre the easiest to cap one of the easiest to setup and have ability to deal AND take insane amounts of dmg if setup correctly....its just sad we have the ability to cap weapons once only cappable by a spy, makes me wonder why anyone would even make a combat spy anymore when PEs can do the same thing only better since they can take alot more dmg than a spy.
you all seem to have forgotten that PEs can also use rifles. the rifle PA is a godsend to rifle PEs as it makes the pain easer finally have just barely enough RoF, whilst allowing you the option of swapping imps for resists.
if you want something non-cookie-cutter that PE PA makes viable in PvP, look no further than the rifle PE.
and PS - as a rifle PE you're forced to invest so much in RC that you've got only just enough for stealth 1, if you're stealthing at all. if you really feel you're overpowered as a pistol PE, lom to RC.
Originally posted by Xizor
"Just use the rare flamer then the PE will not stealth away"
mmkkaaay if you give me a rare flamer I'll do it..But it's one of the most valuable items in game at the moment, and with 300+ techparts it's not like it's easy to get?
For a start if you were trying to quote me directly then you didn't quite get my choice of words right. Secondly its not PEs problem that you don't have the rare flamer, your class (assuming you are a tank) has the ability to take down a stealthed PE or hit him eith DoT damage before he stealths so whats the problem? The gun will become less rare as time goes on.
I know geez. Haha. Boo hoo you dont have the new rare two days after its released. Cry me a freaking river.
You know what? Ive been on these forums and been playing the game since september 2002. I know most of my posts stating facts are taken as "stfu vet and stop fucking braging you asshole" because of the way I present them. I know I could present it in a nicer way, but I really dont care what most people think, so I'll say it anyway:
Theres just no point in arguing... because I wont convince any people, and they wont convince me. Fact is, Ive beaten every PE Ive ever fought more then they have beaten me. I am not the only person who knows about PE's theres are others who know a huge amount, but I know the most. I know that to be true, I dont care what any of you think. It doesnt matter what I say or how many times I fight you people in neofrag, you just dont care about any opinion other then your own, just as I dont cause I know im right. The pes not overpowered, and a good tank or apu can beat a good pe. maybe stealth needs a counter other then true sight sanctom, and maybe ray pistols need and adjustment, but thats it. PEs themselves are fine. Theyare meant to be good by themselves... an apu or a tank buffed by a monk is better then a pe buffed by a monk.
I played this the possabilty of a rolh pe and the resists and HP DO suck. Ive fought many Rolh pes.. their resists DO suck. The only decent ones are drug addicts to redflash or whitelfash and desterole forte, or all 3, and if you think your good cause u can take 3 drugs, guess what? your not. your effective for 5 mins then you are in fizz heaven, not effective.
Im sick of these arguments on class balance cause nobodys going to convince anyone else. maybe in a few months they will nerf the PE, maybe they wont. But I know pes are not deserving of one. I took the pe to its limits before anyone. I knew the pe better then anyone else for all of retail neocron, and I still know it best. Go ahead and flame me, because I know its true, many others admit it or not know its true, and the people who dont know it can just kiss my ass. I realised a little while ago that it just doesnt matter how many people I beat in duels, or kill while outnumbered in the wastes, or whatever I do they just wont listen to what I have to say about the PE and just belive whatever they want to.
I dont know much about a lot of things, so I wont argue with people who do know, I do know the most about pes... They dont need a nerf.
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 02:26
The only reason I think the PA's could make us overpowered is because it lets us spec resists very highly. If you don't know what I mean, just take into consideration a PA can replace a DisWep processor, or ballistic chip, for something such as a Resistor or MOVEON.
Having high dex, well you sacrifice resists for better weapons. Right now I could be using a Silent Hunter but I prefer having my resists a quarter to a third better then they would be with that setup.
edit: btw, vet is right (with everything), there are enough compromises for PE's to make it so PE's aren't overpowered. Just like a hybrid we must strike compromises between offense and defense. However, before PA, this was much harder to do.
Originally posted by Xizor
"Imo PEs need a little less offense and a little less defense, I don't know the solution tho. Also I think Stealth 1 is enough for them, I am not sure though, if the anti-stealth drug worked it would be another story."
just so you know the anti stealth does work it is used to remove stealth of the character that uses it e.g if my character ghard has stealth on and i use the drug it stops my stealth. it does not remove stealth of other characters around you.
it is there so that if you are stealthed with like the obliterator and dont want to have to wait over a min for it to wear off u use the drug and come out of stealth.
{MD}GeistDamnit
16-12-03, 02:55
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Or remove PEPA dex bonus.
why? when every other class has a main stat increase. I personally am a NO tech pe. you know this joy, remember neofrag me u and qd ? ( I'm Ataru ). Without the pe pa's + I would not be able to use a lib without druging or changing the setup I worked hard to perfect.That imo would suck, and all pa's should add to your main stat.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 03:13
It was a suggestion to the problem of the RoLH users.
I'm intrugued how you can't use a libby without drugs or PA. But nm.
I don't need the PA dex (so maybee I'm a little bias), but then I spec for redflash. Having no dist 3 makes your agl a bit shit if you use the Judge. But then I use moveon and PPR, cos i'm still slow as fuck with my shitty 83 agl/atl, need the resists, which are still shite. 130 total (134 energy) and 60 poison, wow, ph34ry me :rolleyes:
Oringinally posted by VetteroX
I am not the only person who knows about PE's theres are others who know a huge amount, but I know the most. I know that to be true, I dont care what any of you think. It doesnt matter what I say or how many times I fight you people in neofrag, you just dont care about any opinion other then your own, just as I dont cause I know im right.
Not a personal attack here, but I am amazed that there are people in this world that are as arrogant as this.
Why were they not beaten with sticks as babies?
Whether or not you do know everything about PEs more than everyone, isn't the point. Just... arg..
Maybe it's because I'm the total opposite.
I refuse to believe I posses any knowledge on a subject or pretend to have any skill in any area.
I am famously the WORST dueler/pvper in Uranus.
Actions to the contrary seem... abohorant to me.
Bah, I'll stop digging my hole now, and fuck off.
I wasnt beaten with a stick because I certainly do not think im best at everything. If I sad im best at everything in the world I would have been, and deservingly so. Im not stating in this post that theres only one way to play a pe, such as saying libs the only way to go, that is a matter of opinion depending on how you play. But whats not a matter of opinion is PE's dont need a nerf.
BTW PA didnt change my resits even 1 point... what it did to was allow me to use tc and stealth. now I agree stealth combined with high firepower and resists can be a bit of a pain, and I think stealth needs a slight nerf, say the stealth thing has to charge a bit after 2 or 3 uses, and cant be used again for say 20 seconds. This way people could still use it to sneek up or get away, but wouldnt be invonerable to anything but a true sight sanc ppu.
I dunno, sure they can no specialise, sure they got more attack/defence, but i've only met a few really good pe's so far, and none have consistently beaten me, so i cant see them as being overpowered.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 03:47
I meant the general addititude, whether it be in one area or all encompassing, and nothing to do with the subject.
I didn't mean abused, when I said beaten, I meant why aren't they 'culled'. :p
No PEs don't need a nerf, but I think they could do with some tweaks in a few areas.
I'm a judge user which is probably silly.
Ignore me. I know nothing.
Shadow Dancer
16-12-03, 04:20
Rade are you being serious? In all sincerity and honesty, I can't tell if this thread is sarcastic or serious.
Btw Vet, have you fought QD? Just curious.
nope. Theres no way Im making a char on uranus after moving to saturn, plus I see no point... its a 4 char server with less people then even pluto.. I heard he has a pe on pluto but its not capped and doesnt have an sf etc. So theres not much we cn do. If he completes his pe on pluto, or makes a saturn pe, we can duel.
ResurgencE
16-12-03, 07:19
Im inclined to agree with Vet.
Currently, the PE is perhaps the most balanced class of them all. According to what KK initially intended, the PE was supposed to be capable of pulling off simply everything another class can do, just not as well as any other specialised class.
For some reason, they've already made it impossible for a PE to gun a vehicle. I fail to see why. Now you're asking for stealth and the bonuses of the PEPA to be removed as well. Why not go all the way and strip the class of everything it has until all the other classes can singlehandedly beat it into a pulp?
As of now, they have made tanks even more viable by stripping the PE off his ability to gun anything. Assuredly, even before the patch, only a tank could gun a rhino without the severe gimpage the PE would have had to undergo. Thus, the PE once again was a JOAT, not being capable of utilising the highest levels of weaponry. If you negate his offense/defense from nerfing MORE psi and dex from his PEPA, and make it impossible for him to stealth (according to some, at all), then what exactly is the point of making a PE?
This wont balance him. It'll kill him. He cant stealth. Hes not a great fighter. He cant tradeskill as well. Why would anyone wish to make one? Some of you mentioned the negation of a combat spy. By definition, the spy isnt supposed to be able to take massive amounts of damage anyway. His str and con caps wont permit it. Even with his weaknesses, the spy can enjoy so much more of a variety in career choices than nearly all the other classes. He is NOT, however, supposed to be able to take down a PE with ease, because if you gimp the PEs with defense ALONE, the spy will be able to penetrate his resists and kill him...You want to gimp his OFFENSE as WELL?
The PE and tank ought to be on par, the tank just a wee bit stronger, and with the ability to gun higher powered vehicles as well as use AoE weapons which a PE should never get access to (Atleast not the higher-end ones). This is because in actuality, the PE is supposed to be moderately strong as well...If not, then might as well make a spy, because he can specialise far better than a PE can. If a PE cannot fight, cannot use spells as effectively (apu/ppu), and cannot tradeskill as well as a spy either....What is his ROLE in this game?
I dont mean to blow my own trumpet here, but the reason this situation has been 'unforseen' as someone mentioned earlier, is because no ROLH PE ive fought as of yet has managed to kill my PE.
Yes SD Im being serious. IMO the best solution would be to
remove the dex bonus and psi penalty from the PE PA. It would
still be a great piece of armor which everyone would want to use,
but it wouldnt be so damn easy to reach higher level equipment,
you would have to make sacrifices which you dont currently.
The balance between Tanks and PEs are pretty nice, Tanks
should generally beat PEs one on one, since PEs can stealth and
Tanks cant. The problem lies in that a PE can have both
excellent combat skills and stealth 2 with ease. Im sorry vet but I
have played a RoLH stealth 2 PE for quite a while now and the
resists and HPs are great, and no Im not doing drugs. Of course
they are a little worse than other setups defence wise but have
alot higher damage output, it doesnt really matter if you take
20% less damage when you increase your damage output by
40%. And stealth 2 on top of that is just too much.
Removing the dex bonus wouldnt really change much for most
PEs, just for those who are really pushing it on high dex items,
most people will just need slight modifications.
I actually 100% agree.
I stood face to face with Djingo Advanced (excellent PvPr - Capped HC Tank)
We shot at each other (me with RoLH and my resists vs him with CS)
He died and left me on 128 HP remaining.
Its the PE PA that makes the difference, i loved being the ONLY (or one of 3) RoLH PE's before PE PA, now every other PE has one and i see so many other people ganking tanks 1 on 1 now.
Tis a joke. I'd gladly change my setup completely to accomodate the lack of PA... would also give my titan armour a chance to breathe again :D
I dont use PE PA4, I dont have an SA and I dont want to gimp or drug to use it, I'm happy wiht my PA3 and my Stealth 1, I'm far from invincible, I might be annoying as hell and hard to kill but without stealth I'd be para'd and killed in seconds so leave us alone!
Read the thread again. We dont want to remove stealth. Its the
PA we are talking about.
PLEASE
Stop ask for nerfs.
You asked for Hybrid Nerf, you got it
You asked for APU Nerf, you got it (i was apu)
You asked for PPU Nerf, you got it (i am ppu)
You asked for Up for Tank, you got it
I come from Venus, you know the French Server o_O
We got only one charater on this server, and for most of us we love this server because of Animation crew which is great and for the community too.
When the english and/or german community got the nerf they asked, the impact is greater on our server than on yours.
You got 2/4 slots for charaters, if your soon nerved character doesn't look fun to play after patch, it's simple for you, you got 3 other chars to play with.
On our 1 slot server, if our only char is nerved... well... we got 2 solutions: cry or reroll... or pay another account !
So please, let the game a little time like he is to see if really there is an unbalanced class.
PS: my first post on the english forum :lol:
Originally posted by L0KI
I actually 100% agree.
I stood face to face with Djingo Advanced (excellent PvPr - Capped HC Tank)
We shot at each other (me with RoLH and my resists vs him with CS)
He died and left me on 128 HP remaining.
Its the PE PA that makes the difference, i loved being the ONLY (or one of 3) RoLH PE's before PE PA, now every other PE has one and i see so many other people ganking tanks 1 on 1 now.
Tis a joke. I'd gladly change my setup completely to accomodate the lack of PA... would also give my titan armour a chance to breathe again :D
Must be my 1337 skillz then O_o
Lol, i do notice some pe's are so fast, have awesome resits, and stil out damage and aim my cs, but hey, wheres the challenge if they cant?
Originally posted by a french guy :D
You asked for Up for Tank, you got it
We did? a few new weapons doesnt make a tank any better........
Explain...?
rade plays on pluto....a one char server too...
Ulta - We only have one char slot on Pluto, where I play. And my
main character is a PE, and I have been playing this PE for 13
months now. Im also pushing the limits of the PE more than most
people, probably anyone, on Pluto. No one would feel this nerf
more than me but I feel that it is justified because the dex bonus
on the PE PA just simply make the PEs life too damn easy.
I've come to the conclusion that no matter what happens in this game, or any other MMORPG, no one will ever be satisfied.
People wanted PA for spies and PEs. They got them, and the PA's were actually worthwhile.
But why be happy when we can ruin a good thing, and then be mad when the nerf the PA and complain about it being useless?
How I long for the days of Space Invaders and Super Mario Bros, where the only time you heard the word "nerf" is if some dork was shooting you with his Nerf missle gun in order to make you lose your concentration.
Originally posted by Lanigav
People wanted PA for spies and PEs. They got them, and the PA's were actually worthwhile.
Well I didnt actually, not for PEs anyway, because I thought they
were fine as they were. Lo and behold...
Originally posted by Rade
Remove em from the game. PEs dont need em and dont deserve
em. They only serve to unbalance the PE class and give us a
amount of dex we shouldnt be able to reach that easily, stealth 2
and rolh is overpowered in the hands of a class with this much
defence. For the PE class every point matters in a way only Spies
will understand, the extra P-C points and dex makes such a huge
difference that it aint funny, it brings a whole new level to the
people who really tweak their stats to the max.
Overpowered. What about the PE's who choose to put points in other skills? And that the PA now give them a chance to use items they wouldn't have been able to?
Not everyone who chooses the PE class makes them a pure fighter and tweeks their skills to the max.
I agree with the problems just about everone has said is wrong with the PEs use of Stealth 2 and RoLH. And I too belive that PE PISTOL PA is the root cause. But please note that I said PISTOL pa, as not one complaint in this thread has been specifically targeted towards Rifle PEs.
So its simple. There is no NERF involved. Just denial of use of Spy Pistol and Tool to PEs. I.e. have for the RoLH and Stealth 2 a requirment of being a Spy (like spy pa). This neatly solves the problem without nerfing anyone.
Just my 2 pence
ghandisfury
16-12-03, 17:16
Originally posted by -DM-
I agree with the problems just about everone has said is wrong with the PEs use of Stealth 2 and RoLH. And I too belive that PE PISTOL PA is the root cause. But please note that I said PISTOL pa, as not one complaint in this thread has been specifically targeted towards Rifle PEs.
So its simple. There is no NERF involved. Just denial of use of Spy Pistol and Tool to PEs. I.e. have for the RoLH and Stealth 2 a requirment of being a Spy (like spy pa). This neatly solves the problem without nerfing anyone.
Just my 2 pence
No, it nerfs PEs. If a PE chooses to make his defences crap, and go for higher level weapons, then why shouldn't he be able to?
I swear, all of the nerf posts in this forum are making me want to puke. Guess what, I got owned.....OWNED by Kaynes Devourer last night. Is it too strong? Probably not, I just need to gear up for it........or maybe not. I should just come here and whine because I died. "I don't want to adjust to newer/better players...I don't want to have to put different armor on.......I dont want to have to adjust my resists to accomidate all possabilities in the game". FFS, PE's are the last people in this game that need a nerf.
Just because something can't be killed easily doesn't mean that it needs a nerf.
Fair point. All I was trying to say was that this thread is about really about a Pistol PE problem not PEs in general. Also that everones solution to these problems is to always lower or increase something, I was just trying to sugest the other way which plp usualy forget exists.
Clownst0pper
16-12-03, 17:24
Rade, what are you thinking! :eek:
:lol: Anyway, I like my PA 2 reasons.
A) I can use ROLH and Slasher without any worries
B) It allows me to fear no class.
It has become to the point where my character in some situations has taken on 4-5 people at a time and come out the winner with quite alot of HP. Why? I cap my ROLH, its dmg is insane, stealth 1 and permantly run casting healing combined with my accuracy and general PVP skills makes my PE devastating.
Saying that, im 100% useless in OP battles, not in a skills sense, just that we have no purpose except for scouting and picking off the enemie who are away from the big pack.
@ Rade, Been thinking about going back to PA less, back to PKing and back to using the judge. Was more fun and I still rocked then :angel:
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 17:25
Originally posted by ghandisfury
No, it nerfs PEs. If a PE chooses to make his defences crap, and go for higher level weapons, then why shouldn't he be able to?
The thing is that, RoLH + Stealth 2 = Awesome defence and Awesome offence.
Resists with these two are NOT terrible enough to justify the gain in dmg output.
Like Rade said, 20% loss in defence does not justify a 40% increase in offence.
PEs don't need the dex bonus, and it lets them enter the regions only intended for spies, bringing with them the defences of the PE, which is unbalaced.
What PEs do need is skill points. Remove the dex bonus and PE still gain from having PA, but they are still restricted to the 'PE' items.
PA can mean something like replaceing a dist3 for a PPR or a MOVEON, even wihtout the Mainstat increase.
Just because all the other PAs have them doesn't mean the PEPA should too, things should be tailored to each class, and this includes restrictions in order to maintain balance.
Clownst0pper
16-12-03, 17:28
PA can mean something like replaceing a dist3 for a PPR or a MOVEON, even wihtout the Mainstat increase.
Just because all the other PAs have them doesn't mean the PEPA should too, things should be tailored to each class, and this includes restrictions in order to maintain balance.
It makes no difference, everyone knows its a PE's shelter which keeps us alive so long. Removing my PA will only set me back to my old judge setup where I used PP resist chip, Judge still fucks people up quickly and Resist chip made me even harder defence wise.
Its a double bladed sword, take away my PA im still going to be rock hard just because I push my PE's setup, and love the class because I can do that.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 17:32
I don't want PA removed, but I do want something done about the imbalance that I see with the RoLH and/or the stealth 2.
Niether which I have considered PE weapons since... ever.
Clownst0pper
16-12-03, 17:40
Sadly dribble Joy we are also aware that the PE is the class which is the middle class, capable of everything, best at nothing, sadly it seems we are best at offensive and defensive in PVP and duals.
Effectivly we are the Pking machine and removing PA isnt going to change that nor is taking away the DEX it gives. A good tank should always be able to kill the best PE's (shakes fist at rizzy) and the best APU's should do the same (shakes fist at igor)
It is those people who dont push there characters specs and manipulate con resists that are usually the one asking for the nerfs, sadly this is Rade where talking about who knows his shit (her/him) I agree and disagree in some insatances Rade, myself and other great PE's who push the class are the ones who are ubalancing it?
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 17:48
Rade has pushed the limits of the PE... more than ANYONE!!...
Where's your h-c PE? I was using TSG with efficiency and attacking people at op battles with a damn assault trike. One of my friends did libby and particle nemesis with good results. Can you really say you've even attempted anything like that? If no, then you haven't pushed a PE to it's limits. It seems to me you've settled into a cookie cutter RoLH PE, actually.
PE PA slightly closes the gap between offense/defense, that's all. I have had resists that are just as good without tech combat before, but I happen to like Ray of God so I decided to try out the same resists with it instead of libby/earp. If I wanted to use spy weapons such as disruptor or silent hunter, then I could easily, but sacrifice resists. It gives more flexibility, but still keeps true to compromising offense for defense, or the other way around. And, is Stealth II really all that important? If I can't get away in ten seconds then I'm doing something wrong. A PE notices a little breathing space between stealth I and II but it's not as crucial or class unbalancing as people seem to make it out as.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 17:48
Thing is I don't want us to be the best at PvP/dueling, I would rather have balance.
I would push my PE to the RoLH, but I subbornly will not move from my beloved judge, me no cookeh.
May sould like being a bit authorative, but you shouldn't be able to push the PE so far. It may take skill and time to do and you should be rewarded for that, but when everyone soon has the same setup, it becomes unbalanced.
In pushing our PEs as far as we have, we are effectively playing the test server, seeking out the things wrong with the game machanics.
Clownst0pper
16-12-03, 17:52
I would push my PE to the RoLH, but I subbornly will not move from my beloved judge, me no cookeh.
May sould like being a bit authorative, but you shouldn't be able to push the PE so far. It may take skill and time to do and you should be rewarded for that, but when everyone soon has the same setup, it becomes unbalanced.
If your commenting on my present setup sure! I am 100% a typical ROLH user. However, It doesnt mean in the past on saturn I havnt messed about with setups. But then again it came to the point where I was just waisting my time and settled for a setup which works for me well.
And again, I try not to use ROLH too much, I usually use an executioner or a slasher.
Also, I have spent countless hours perfecting my con setup without a PP resist chip and with one. It is easy to replicate a setup, it isnt easy to make it effective.
Who knows maybe I will go back to the low tech pistol days. But dont catogorise me when you know little of me. Pisses me off when Ive worked hard on my setup:mad:
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 17:57
Damn, actually I want PA to be boosted! That's right!.. It looks fucking hideous, come on give it a touch up job :)
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 17:58
Dammit, I'm not attacking you mush. :D
And I know that replicating a setup is not easy, and many fail to do it.
But the ease of the RoLH/stealth 2 setup to copy and make effective is too easy.
But that's OT, kinda.
Those with setups pushed to the limit do indeed benefit a lot. But I still think the effectiveness of the above setup, pushed or not, is still too powerful.
Clownst0pper
16-12-03, 17:59
Dribble it wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at Kramertheweird who finds it appropriate to judge my character. Im sure if he came to saturn he wouldnt be so judging.
:mad:
I think that the best option would be to take away the +dex and the -Psi. This would mean that people couldn't use it to reach very high level weapons which are for spies or PEs which drug up but that people who use the bonuses to rifle/pistol to spec into other things such as repair or vehicle can still do that.
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 18:13
Did you talk about it pushing the limits? If not, then I wasn't talking to you. Actually, you said it was the typical RoLH setup, so I don't see how you think I was talking about you.
Also, removing dex won't stop many who choose to use drugs. In fact a common setup for RoLH is to drug into PEPA 4 and then self wear the bonuses to meet the req.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 18:13
Originally posted by Judge
I think that the best option would be to take away the +dex and the -Psi. This would mean that people couldn't use it to reach very high level weapons which are for spies or PEs which drug up but that people who use the bonuses to rifle/pistol to spec into other things such as repair or vehicle can still do that.
As me, Rade, and several others have mentioned allready.
Drugging to RoLH is quite possible, and PEs need the skill points.
Removing the Mainstat bonus might warrant a slight (by about 2 points) increase in the bonus/mali to PC/RC/MST.
I was just supporting your and Rades idea Dribble :)
Also KramerTheWeird I have no problem with PEs using the spy weapons WITH drugs because thats a pain in the arse.
ghandisfury
16-12-03, 18:26
Ok, just take away the bonus from the rifle armor right? Cause there isn't anything wrong with the pistol PE "pushing the limits". But what about when somebody figures out another great setup for the pistol PE? Ah, nerf that as well. See there is a trend here that nobody wants to admit. When a good player makes a good setup, there is umbalance.....but is it skill or just the inherant unbalance of the class in question? We could go back to hybrids when they were removed from the game because of their total imbalance. Back then there were descent hybrids that could kill 2 or 3 players........then you had the great players that put time and concern into thier setup, and that made them unreal, in effect taking on full clans and destroying them. In the hybrids case it was unbalanced because there was no way a player of equal skill could beat them 1vs1, but is this the case with the PE? Is the PE actually unbalanced, or is it the fact that the good players (rade, Kramer, Vet, etc) will push thier PE to the limits to take on a team and come out ontop? I would say that it's the select few that make the big picture......bigger. So next time we call for a nerf, let's call for it specifically to individual players. Here, I'll start.
I want Crypto nerfed, his PPU skills are too good.
I want Kramer nerfed, I have never been able to beet him in a duel.
I want Vet nerfed because of the asskicking I recieved the first time I met him.
I want Phyco ninja nerfed, he owned me last night in PP.
KK, once these players are made to have to "think" about thier setups Neocron will be a better place. And hopefully a player like myself (average) will be able to beat them.
I think what Rade is getting at is where as before he spent a lot of time tweaking the PE setup. Findind a good one was meticulous, going through all sorts of potential implants/armors/weapons... Now its just a whole hell of a lot easier. Any PE can spend little to no time on their setup and come away with something decent.
As for "pushing the limits," I think it is definitely possible to push the limits of a cookie cutter setup. Take it one step beyond the norm and all. I've pushed a lot of limits with PE over the many months Ive had him but I enjoy my current setup I dont see a need to push the class in a direction I dont want him to go, so I stay a Libby/PPv42 PE :p
ghandisfury
16-12-03, 19:26
Originally posted by Jest
Any PE can spend little to no time on their setup and come away with something decent.
As can a PPU, APU, Spie, and Tank......I still don't see the point. If it's the ease of setting up a character in concern, then why not nerf all classes instead of just the PE?
I honestly think that the easiest way for kk to actualy balance off pvp is to totally remove any kind of paralysis....Cuz honestly everyone knows that when ppu's cast holy paralysis on you...the fight ends right then and there. It totally ruins the PVP gameplay. Cuz when ur froze u absolutely have no chance...Sure the antishock drugs work great but if u keep popping them for instance the other day i was gettin gang raped in pp2 by uTs (2 ppu's a tank and an apu) and im just a PE. Both ppu's were both camping outside of the secret black dragon HQ and every time i would go out..the first ppu would para me then i pop a pill, then the other ppu para me...by the time i ate the second pill...i already had a drugflash. then i eventually got ganked cuz of it. Anyhow i think it'd be better for ALL classes that parashock spells etc should be removed alltogether.
-=Blasehase=-
16-12-03, 19:45
so why is it the PA?
even with the PA u must decide about: runspeed OR resists OR good weapon stats when u use the RolH
i use PA4 AND 3 drugs
and i can build a setup without PA wich has nearly the same effect only by using 1 more drug...
so removing the PA change nothing
the only problem i see on PEs is the possibility to use the stealth 2
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 19:55
Skill calculators, Resist calculations, constant discussion of strategies, setups, tactics, a year of planning, developing, experience, experimenting, playtesting.
This is what makes it so common to see PE's that are within the same limits as other highly skilled PE's. Not the PA.
Wanting PA changed is just saying you don't want people to approach a level of setup and skill combined of what you have. You don't want to give anyone leverage for the ability to compete. I think if it was dumbed down furthur and wasn't so much of a science of getting perfect resists and combat etc, the game would be much more balanced and funner to play. People that have uncracked a good setup and keep it to theirselves, or are steps ahead of their classes progression in terms of setup, are the ones that make the class overpowered. You break it down and let everyone know, which is becoming more of a reality now, it makes the class more defined and easier to determine overpowered or not.
Shadow Dancer
16-12-03, 19:57
I also don't thikn PEs should have easy access to stealth 2+ ROLH.
I like the idea of removing dex bonus and removing PSI penalty.
I also think KK should give us the option of turning off the visual appearance for all PA.
IMO I think the PE should have it harder to exp....
I can say its THE fastest calss to cap.
well set their dex exp gain to 75% like PSI for monks and do other nerfs so they cant cap it "dont take in the con here" 2 days ^^
If they have lower to cap the stats they should have it harder to just cap it like any other char..
think thier PA should give a bit boost in P-C , R-C and skip the dex bonus ^^
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Skill calculators, Resist calculations, constant discussion of strategies, setups, tactics, a year of planning, developing, experience, experimenting, playtesting.
This is what makes it so common to see PE's that are within the same limits as other highly skilled PE's. Not the PA.
Wanting PA changed is just saying you don't want people to approach a level of setup and skill combined of what you have. You don't want to give anyone leverage for the ability to compete. I think if it was dumbed down furthur and wasn't so much of a science of getting perfect resists and combat etc, the game would be much more balanced and funner to play. People that have uncracked a good setup and keep it to theirselves, or are steps ahead of their classes progression in terms of setup, are the ones that make the class overpowered. You break it down and let everyone know, which is becoming more of a reality now, it makes the class more defined and easier to determine overpowered or not.
Actually all those things have benefited all classes, -=Blasehase=-
skillmanager has massively improved my tank, and yeah i spent over a year working on a 'good' setup for him, then the skillmanager came out and i see where i went wrong.........
PE PE is.......well.........i dunno, i got a thing against pe's anyway, i think its the running speed and aiming.......
anyway, i cant say the pa ois THAT bad tbh.
KramerTheWeird
16-12-03, 20:08
Yes, I didn't just mean PE's, but every class. At first hybrids weren't very special until certain notorious runners began utilizing their full power. Same with libby PE's, a couple pioneered, the rest flooded in. Both these variants and how the information spread to affect most players made people realize just how powerful they are. Now it's pretty common to have a similar setup to most any other player, so the balance of the class should be glaringly obvious.
-=Blasehase=-
16-12-03, 20:13
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Yes, I didn't just mean PE's, but every class. At first hybrids weren't very special until certain notorious runners began utilizing their full power. Same with libby PE's, a couple pioneered, the rest flooded in. Both these variants and how the information spread to affect most players made people realize just how powerful they are. Now it's pretty common to have a similar setup to most any other player, so the balance of the class should be glaringly obvious.
but remember that the "old" liberator where MUCH stronger than the RolH today !
with the OLD one it where possible to kill a tank in under 5 seconds... this isnt possible with a rolh
ghandisfury
16-12-03, 20:14
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Now it's pretty common to have a similar setup to most any other player, so the balance of the class should be glaringly obvious.
Just like the hybrids of the past. A few players were unbelievable, and the rest were just good because they played an overpowered class. People will be cookie cutters because they get owned (or just shown) a very good setup, and want to take advantage of it. This the case it's still no reason to nerf a class.
Let me ask a question, has anybody battled with a spie using selfcast shelter? It's unreal how good they are (or should I say overpowered?), has anybody battled with a tank weilding a devourer? The damage is insane (or is it unbalanced?). I would say that in almost all cases the classes have been balanced, now it's time to sort some bugs, and add some new content.
Originally posted by -=Blasehase=-
but remember that the "old" liberator where MUCH stronger than the RolH today !
with the OLD one it where possible to kill a tank in under 5 seconds... this isnt possible with a rolh
Eh?
The Old lib was in the era where everyone had a freezer pistol and there were no drugs or anything like that. Also there was a health glitch, making it easy for any gun with a high ROF like the lib to kill anything.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 22:28
Originally posted by -=Blasehase=-
so why is it the PA?
even with the PA u must decide about: runspeed OR resists OR good weapon stats when u use the RolH
i use PA4 AND 3 drugs
and i can build a setup without PA wich has nearly the same effect only by using 1 more drug...
so removing the PA change nothing
the only problem i see on PEs is the possibility to use the stealth 2
PA it'self isn't the problem, it's the ease at which it allows PEs to use RoLH AND stealth 2. Both are really spy weapons, and the use of them by PEs is to 'easy' little or no drugs are required, and defences are not really that nerfed.
Removing the dex bonus means RoLH use will be very hard to to without severe gimpage of imps.
why nerf pes pa? why not do wghat ive been saying for months and nerf ray weapons and make counters to stealth? the whole argument seems to be rolh pes are too strong withstealth 2, so nerf ray weapons or stealth, not all pes just because rolh stealth combos too stong?
-=Blasehase=-
16-12-03, 22:41
so when RolH is a spy weapon... whats a PE weapon?
they r ALL dex based... a PE has 80 dex...
when the rares come into the game the PE has the most dex of all classes
so why is a weapon only for 1 class when another can use it too?
i agree with u with the stealth2, but why shouldnt a PE run with slasher or First Love?
Like Ive said over and over, I wouldnt mind RoLH+stealth 1 PEs,
and I wouldnt mind BS/lib+stealth 2 PEs. Its the RoLH+stealth 2
that tips the balance.
Dribble Joy
16-12-03, 22:51
Higher TL weapons have a higher dmg output.
There is generally a balance made between dmg output and defence. The more you have in one, the less you have in another.
The gain in offence that PEs get with the RoLH and the PA, is not in proportion with the loss of defence.
By spy weapon, I mean, too powerful for the defence of PEs.
Removing PEPA Mainstat bonus/mali restores this balance.
-=Blasehase=-
17-12-03, 02:35
a CS can outdmg a rolh
a HL can outdmg a rolh
the rolh is the only PISTOL wich makes good dmg
good... but not too much...10-20 dmg on a tank per shot isnt much with this frequency... a CS do more on a tank... but it works if u have movement, and ur playerskill is high enought
than the range...
u must be as close as possible to the enemy wich gives him a better chance to hit u
then: spys r in the role of a long range fighter & Supporter[KK said this some time ago]... that doesnt equal to pistols
PEs r long range AND close range [KK said this]
that IS equal to pistols...
so pistols r mainly for PEs [its possible to use slasher as a PE, so dont argue with the TLs]
then the stealth 1 isnt a real problem... but its a good backup to get drugs, and if u r hitted by blueglue to get a antistun worked
to run away its not enought in the wastelands
the stealth 2 is a problem...
in 20 seconds u can reach places where u can heal urself too easily...
thats too much for a PE....
As long time PE runner... I do not mind if the DEX bonus would be removed from the PE-PA, but then the negatives should also be removed and the requirements brought down to the old pre-patch levels without reducing defense.
Else this armour will be quite useless.
On the other hand, Stealth 2+ could also be made Spy only, removing the stealth 1 from a PE would remove one of his strongest tools ingame right now, and push him again behind everyone else by a margin.
Originally posted by Rade
Like Ive said over and over, I wouldnt mind RoLH+stealth 1 PEs,
and I wouldnt mind BS/lib+stealth 2 PEs. Its the RoLH+stealth 2
that tips the balance. whats the problem with being able to use the RoLH + Stealth 2? Its not like they are the top end weapons.
So if you take the RoLH away from the Pistol PE it leaves them with only two choices of Rare Weapons.
I would be more concerned if they could easily reach every weapon and tool they wanted.
I hate cookie cutters!!!!!
I am a unique PE, unlike the rest of them
OK then garyu, name a better pistol than the RoLH.
i mean that they can't use the Slasher and Executioner, which are the highest reqs.
ghandisfury
17-12-03, 16:19
Originally posted by Scikar
OK then garyu, name a better pistol than the RoLH.
Black sun, tangent epic, and slasher.
Dribble Joy
17-12-03, 16:29
You honestly think the BS is better then the RoLH?
Or the TT epic?
O_o
So if you take the RoLH away from the Pistol PE it leaves them with only two choices of Rare Weapons.
It's not takeing it away, it's making it harder to use, and making you sacrifice the proportional amount of defence to do so.
Besides, 2 rares and a high lvl non rare, is more than the other classes get.
I don't like cookie cutters, I'm not one either, but there should be a balance between all types of setup.
Jesterthegreat
17-12-03, 17:30
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Black sun, tangent epic, and slasher.
lmfao...
slasher - if you get the rate of fire just right... but i know i overcap RoF and not all the damage is calculated...
I for one like the fact, that the new bonuses from the PA allow me to get more versatility out of my character, who is not maxed to the fullest and overspecialized. I now can use my rifles (PE and RoG decently - damage and I think aiming is capped, RoF is probably not, however) and still run fast while being able to use Stealth 2 - which is just sooo cool :) - and still retain my ability to implant, hack, drive and recycle (ok granted, can't really recycle anymore).
The problem is not with what is available, but with the players who just need to go overboard with everything they get into their hands!
NERF TEH PLAYAHS! :D
Kitana
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
lmfao...
slasher - if you get the rate of fire just right... but i know i overcap RoF and not all the damage is calculated...
You mean so that when you stop firing it carries on by itself and even shoots while you reload? :)
Only way around it I've found is to click at each burst instead of holding the button down. I hit more that way anyway.
Jesterthegreat
17-12-03, 17:43
or if you are gonna use that weapon only... lower wep lore i guess? lower pc as much as you can really lower it (dont lower it past weapon cap though)
Mumblyfish
17-12-03, 18:03
Nah. It's more fun just going batshit with the rate of fire. Hearing it makes my ears smile.
Pyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyowpyow...
Jesterthegreat
17-12-03, 18:08
mine was at 493/min with self buffs, 4 +dex imps and a pistol kami :p fully capped dmg / aim and 493/min :lol:
make stealth 2 3 and obliverator spy only. make stealth 1 anyone who has stats to use it.
Clownst0pper
17-12-03, 20:37
i mean that they can't use the Slasher and Executioner, which are the highest reqs.
My PE uses slasher as main o_0
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
@ Rade, Been thinking about going back to PA less, back to PKing and back to using the judge. Was more fun and I still rocked then :angel:
no u didn't :rolleyes:
The pe power armor is fine, and its a good thing. Ive seen a few people who go around without it, saying they dont like it... If you want to be weaker, fine. But dont take it away from people who know its value.
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