View Full Version : Idea: Serious Look at Tradeskills
There has been a lot of complaining about trade skills not being big enough or gving enough XP. In this post I will state what I feel is the problems with the skills and my solutions.
ALL
Increase the XP gain for all trade skills so that you can level a bit faster than now if you go pure trade skill. Very important things like buliding multi slotted weapons or researching rares should give an extra little XP bonus
Poking
Problem:Their use is very limited because careful players try very hard not to have their imps drop out so pokers get less business than others. Also there is not guaranteed way for them to make money (Meaning no trade window is needed)
Solution:
A: Have the ability to set a price for pokes in your tool window. When you go to poke someone a dialogue pops up on their screen asking if they agree to pay POKER XXX dollars to be poked.
B: Require that the poker put the implant in his processor window before poking so that he/she can ask for money.
Second Idea: Allow pokers to inject certain super drugs. The only way one can take these drugs is to have them injected by a poker. Make the bonus better than normal drugs so that they have a point and also make them last a tad longer so you dont have to get them injected every 2 seconds. The downside to these drugs are you can get addicted. (Anyone who has played postal 2 will get this) Addiction happens when you take too many of a certain drug in too short a period. A timer will appear on your screen, like with intoxication now (cant remember the exact name of the thing) Any way if you dont take more of the drug in a certain time limit you will suffer SI, HP loss, or death. "Need 10k for drugs!"
Research
Problem: So many high level and other important items cannot be BPed or dont need to be. Armor and PSI mods come at a decent quality already and high level armor cant be bped at all.
Solution: Let all items except for level 3 imps and very rare armor to be BPed (so that these can be kept rare) Also armor and PSI mods should be sold at a lower quality.
Construction
Problem: Along the same line of research, many items cannot be BPed and therefore, bulit. Constructors mostly build rare weapons for people now and thats it.
Solution: Same as research solution.
Make armor slotable with the following mods: Lightweight alloy (weighs less and lowers the str req) Resists bonuses (adds resist bonuses for the armor) Hardening liquid (Adds force resists), etc...
Make Veh. Keys slotable with the following upgrades:
N20 (increases speed of the vehicle)
Armor plating (In creases armor rating)
Weapon Damage Boost (Increases damage of the weapon)
Switch weapon (Switches to weapon the mod is named after)
Also allow them to add together junk weapon components. (See recycling)
Recycling
Problem: Only few constructors use the chemicals to make items and if they do they buy them or get them from mobs. No other uses for Recycling.
Solution: Chemicals no longer sold anywhere and mob drops reduced greatly. Allow them to put junk together to make component parts for junk weapons as per Shujens thread about it. (Too lazy to look for it search for "Building weapons from junk") For example someone takes 5 glass to a recycler. He makes it into "Good glass blade" which is put together by a constructor to make a weapon.
Hacking
Problem: Most of the uses for hackers (WB's and such) require low hacking skill so pure hackers dont make out.
Solution: Increase level needed for all hackable items. Make hack boxes drop good items according to their names. If hacknet is coming then nuff said.
Good ideas! Every single one of them. (And most of them have already been suggested by people many many many times over. For instance your "implant" skill solution I've seen kicking around almost a year ago.)
Sadly it's never going to happen. Why? Because KK are LAAAAAZZZZYYY people who don't care. And even though most of the ideas you propose would require minimal coding effort and mostly a lot of scripting, they won't release the scripting manual to the public so we can't even do it for them. And they won't do it for us. So it's a moot point.
Regarding poking B):
in no way you will get people to hand over their "precious" to a poker... (and as poking is time critical, you don't have the time to wait for a known trustworthy Doc)
So i dislike that one.
As well as your attempt on hacking... encourages the "specialization" spiral again.
Just my 2c, Wilco
I strongly agree with increase of XP u get by tradeskill, its not even worth it u have to cap a char then lom it should NOT be like that.
Originally posted by Sealdude
Hacking
Problem: Most of the uses for hackers (WB's and such) require low hacking skill so pure hackers dont make out.
Solution: Increase level needed for all hackable items. Make hack boxes drop good items according to their names. If hacknet is coming then nuff said.
havent tried since was no hacker near when did it.. but a dead MC5 Security Systems Bot should be hard to hack ^^
takes a while to kill... but when you do... should require a lot to hack.. and then have smething nice in it :)
superfresh
13-12-03, 14:49
This is a solid thread. There wouldn't be decent combat characters without tradeskillers, and they should be able to level accordingly. I'd love for KK to up the exp on tradeskills. Other than bugs that should be a focus IMO.
Only disagreement I have is with implant. Tradeskilling isn't too different from RL in that, you treat people well, they treat you well. It's not entirely about pointing/clicking and sticking points in an attribute. Implant isn't the most respected tradeskill, but you can do just fine with it if you respect your customers. :)
Most of the ideas are good.
Only the Recycling idea sucks. Noone will make chems for stuff in a large enough amout to be any us.
Better give the recycler another usefull purpose. let him recycle rares to techparts. give him a broken or noslotted rare and he gets a few of the techparts out of it. the higher the skill the more techparts can be salvaged.
That would be usefull.
Xaru
Originally posted by Xaru
Better give the recycler another usefull purpose. let him recycle rares to techparts. give him a broken or noslotted rare and he gets a few of the techparts out of it. the higher the skill the more techparts can be salvaged.
This is how I thought salvaging was supposed to work, but it doesn't.
I like the rest of the ideas, but would also like to see bonuses for pure tradeskillers -
- high research skill increases speed much more and reduces lube cost. Research is stupidly slow, I really pity researchers doing bulk jobs.
- high construct increases slot chances and reduces grease cost.
Slottable vehicles - excellent idea.
Slottable armour - even better, more setup possibilities.
5 stars :)
Cerebus
It's not entirely about pointing/clicking and sticking points in an attribute. Implant isn't the most respected tradeskill, but you can do just fine with it if you respect your customers.
Exactly. (so yeah, I'm against idea #2)
I think the other ideas are decent, love the upping of exp, because quite frankly, I've researched thousands of tech parts only to get 1.5 int gains. Figure 20+ hours of work iding parts... Meanwhile if I were to go out hunting I would probably get the gain in a matter of hours.
The research idea is decent, I think that chemicals should continue to be sold... However Recycling should be the cheap way to handle getting chems. Once again, because I doubt people would be willing to specialize in recycling.
=/
You guys are missing a fundamental flaw with construction/research. The process is in noway fun! Especialy for researchers. It's a mindless tedious boring job that shouldn't be so. Its 1000x worse to level up by tradeskills then by hunting mobs. Killing is at least movement and requires you pay attention. Researchers start a job by picking up a book or turnin on the tv!
I really like your ideas about slotted armour and vehicles, that will really increase business for constructers
maybe also be able to have ammo mods for combat vehicles to make them more use in op wars
More things to do for tradeskillers. Yes please. Alternative and viable ways to level tradeskiller without using weapon of any kind. Yes please. Maybe someday we will see pacifist group in NC who refuse to take arms and promote peace. :)
Researcher is just such a cheap ass tradeskill , ppl do NOT ever tip anything good , and if a constructor makes a 3-5 slot rare then its omg omg nice TIP!!!. And what does a researcher get?? jackshit...and its more time taking and expensive....
I cant even be bothered to serve in p1 or to others (only friends if needed ) with my high researcher, XP not worth it and tips....thats even a bigger joke (ppl think if u tip lub thats enough...usally its not even enough to cover it ...8| )
For all the people bashing the recycling idea. Where did you get the idea that no one would specilize in recycling? Sharon Apple, my old constructor used to have 120 recycling for example. It was just useless to have it above 20, so I LoM'd it off. But she made her first million by salvaging parts/chemicals from weapons and items found on mobs and then using those to build things to sell (like vehicles). Practically free construction, meaning I could build a hovertec without any costs to me and sell it for 50k a piece, pure profit.
So stop making claims you know nothing about! Please only comment on things you actually know about.
As for people not giving their "precious" to the poker? Well, too bad, go find yourself a reliable poker or learn to live without implant (au naturale?). Besides, here's another character concept, why does everyone have to have implants? In cyberpunk 2020 cybernetics improve you as well, but they have drawbacks. I don't think it's right to have all the bonuses of implants without the drawbacks of them. (In cyberpunk 2020 it's loss of humanity. The more cybernetics you have, the less "human" you are. And eventually you just go berzerk and have a special squad hunting you down to kill you. Heh.)
maybe make recycling more usefull buy being able to salvace techs from rares.
For example people trying for a 5 slot rare can try again if they only get a 0 slot by salvaging the parts from the weapon.
To make it so people dont just salvage, construct, salvage construct, a certain amount of techs are destroyed on salvaging, depending on the persons skill, ie a capped recycler at a mine would only lose 1 tech part (maybe 1-3 but make it random)
Psyco Groupie
13-12-03, 21:03
hmm .. nice ideas .... nice fantasy .. you just need to learn howto make trade skills fun ... ie:
poking .. help when u die!
research - go hunt then go through your parts (mildy amusing)
construct - trying to make 5 slot things :P
hacking - steal that childs belt :P
bleh
So stop making claims you know nothing about! Please only comment on things you actually know about
Yeah, I still have a dude who's entire 93 dex is specced in recycling... But you know what?
Recycling (as it is now, and as it's put forth here) is and would still be one of those skills which will only benefit the person who has said skill.
No one will ever take their junk to a recycler and be like "chems please". Why? Because most people don't even look at that level of construction.
Increase the XP gain for all trade skills so that you can level a bit faster than now if you go pure trade skill.
Neocron is combat-oriented. Leveling off tradeskills does not work past a certain point. This is by design, and is evident if you've played/followed the game for the past two and a half years. If you don't like it, Neocron is not the game for you.
Chemicals no longer sold anywhere and mob drops reduced greatly.
Doesn't work. You can't get chems in volume that way. To build, say, 100 Weaponpart 6's, you need 700 chemicals (7 per unit). To builk build enough weaponarts to bulk build weapons requires, literally, thousands of chemicals. Player characters can't provide that, and shouldn't be forced to. All this would do is make barter more useful and increase weapon costs.
So many high level and other important items cannot be BPed or dont need to be
Like what? Level 3 PPU booster spells for which quality is of dubious value? Level 4 armor that can be bought in multiple locations? PA that can be obtained fairly easily?
If hacknet is coming then nuff said.
Good, because increasing the difficulty of hacking Warbots would just piss people off...
Constructors mostly build rare weapons for people now and thats it.
I rarely build rares for people. I usually build regular weapons and implants. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Make armor slotable with the following modsSo now not only can't I get chems in bulk, but you want me to bulk build armor and vehicles to get slots? I don't think you've thought this through...
The downside to these drugs are you can get addicted. (Anyone who has played postal 2 will get this)
This is Neocron, not "postal 2".
For all the people bashing the recycling idea. Where did you get the idea that no one would specilize in recycling? Neocron is a combat-oriented game. Specializing in Recycling is a significant drain on combat skills. This runs counter to the orientation of the game.
Besides, here's another character concept, why does everyone have to have implants?
Because implants extend one's functionality and allows diversification. One doesn't have to pour 100 trainpoints into construction to gain 20 levels, one can install an SS and a Cst 2 instead, freeing up those 100 pts for something else, like 75 base hack or implant points...
In cyberpunk 2020
This is Neocron. This is not "cyberpunk 2020".
cybernetics improve you as well, but they have drawbacks.Most implants have drawbacks, or have you missed the negative attributes that most implants have?
Neocron is combat-oriented. Leveling off tradeskills does not work past a certain point. This is by design, and is evident if you've played/followed the game for the past two and a half years. If you don't like it, Neocron is not the game for you.
If it is so combat oriented then how come half of the people want trade skills to be something to do rather then run around and kill people. Besides if someone wants to go pure tradeskill and has fun at it how does it hurt you?
The point of no more sold chems was to make people actually use recycle but not many people use chems.
Like what? Level 3 PPU booster spells for which quality is of dubious value? Level 4 armor that can be bought in multiple locations? PA that can be obtained fairly easily?
Wow that went way over your head. That is the point! To make researchers and constructors needed more and so there is more interaction between players, the whole reason why "most" stuff is low quality.
Good, because increasing the difficulty of hacking Warbots would just piss people off...
Maybe, but other people have complained that warbots and such only need around 50 hack and that going pure hack is a waste.
So now not only can't I get chems in bulk, but you want me to bulk build armor and vehicles to get slots? I don't think you've thought this through...
Not everyone wants slots. If some noob or just a normal person wants a veh. key then all they have to do is buy the parts. This idea is only for clans, high level people who want some extra punch.
This is Neocron, not "postal 2".
Really? :rolleyes: Excuse me for trying to add a bit of RP
Neocron is a combat-oriented game. Specializing in Recycling is a significant drain on combat skills. This runs counter to the orientation of the game.
Again where does it say this on the box? Its not telling you what to do, some people may have fun at this.
Ok on to some other thoughts. I havent tried to steal any of these ideas from people but if it happens to be the same, um, oops! :lol:
On the idea of people not wanting to give imps to a poker, well deal with it. You already have to give up your shit if you want it repaired, you have to trust people to ress your rares and give them back, you have to trust the CST not to steal all your stuff.
I am going to try to revise these ideas and make them more "interactive" and "fun"
If it is so combat oriented then how come half of the people want trade skills to be something to do rather then run around and kill people.
Where are you getting "half"? If so many people wanted tradeskills, they'd elect to do tradeskills.
Besides if someone wants to go pure tradeskill and has fun at it how does it hurt you?
If one can level off tradeskills, someone will find a way to macro it, powerlevel, then LoM to combat. There is no danger in tradeskills - it's all reward, no risk. That definitely runs counter to the orientation of the game...
The point of no more sold chems was to make people actually use recycle but not many people use chems.
And my point is your plan will backfire. The only people using chems are the masochists like me who prefer to build parts for cheap rather than buy parts. Removing chems only serves to hurt the few like me and bolster the importance of barterers. However, your salvage idea serves to bolster the recycling skill without nerf anything.
Wow that went way over your head. That is the point! To make researchers and constructors needed more
We're needed enough already. Your suggestion actually makes the barterer less useful and just serves to aggrivate a playerbase that can never find a researcher or constuctor when they need one.
and so there is more interaction between players, the whole reason why "most" stuff is low quality.
Huh? Level 3 booster spells aren't low quality. They're in the 70% range and can be bought with slots. Level 4 armor and PA is all artifact condition when purchased.
Again where does it say this on the box? Its not telling you what to do, some people may have fun at this.
The suggestions you are making FORCE change - they nerf existing conventions. You're trying to force the creation of a recycling speciality just to make the game playable. Instead of forcing changes on those of us who like things the way they are, think of changes that extend gameplay without shutting out existing playstyles.
The biggest problem with tradeskill threads is people trying to force the playerbase to specialize, to force the creation of tradeskill-specific players in a game that isn't designed for such characers to be used as primary characters. Neocron is combat-oriented. It's a fundamental design decision that pervades all areas of the game. It's needed for leveling, for hunting and for PvP. Even if you have an LE in, you still need a combat skill to level and find your own techparts/implants.
If you're looking for a game where you can level completely without combat, Neocron is not for you. The game is not geared to that sort of player and probably never will be unless LoMs are adjusted in some way or removed completely.
Jesterthegreat
15-12-03, 16:55
Originally posted by Wilco
Regarding poking B):
in no way you will get people to hand over their "precious" to a poker... (and as poking is time critical, you don't have the time to wait for a known trustworthy Doc)
So i dislike that one.
As well as your attempt on hacking... encourages the "specialization" spiral again.
Just my 2c, Wilco
strange... they hand over their "precious" to me (a repper)
they hand over unID'd parts to a resser
they hand over a FULL SET of rares to a constructor
contrary to poplr belief not everyone has 3 tradeskillers and a monk
@Jester:
That's why i added: "(and as poking is time critical, you don't have the time to wait for a known trustworthy Doc)"
It's that simple... if KK wanted chars to have an additional "timesink", when looking for a trustwurthy Doc, then no problem, go ahead...
But i'll promise you massive resistance from the "OP-slayer" fraction :)
Just my 2c, Wilco
I guess for IceStorm, "combat oriented" means "everyone must fight."
:rolleyes:
Combat oriented means all activities are done in support of combat. Imps are poked in cause they help make people combat effective. Parts are researched and items are built to be used in combat. Thats combat oriented. You cant build anything NOT made for combat, like tools and such.
Considering that YOU cannot fight without the help of people doing non-combative skills, I dont see the harm in allowing those runners to advance their skills by using them.
Jesterthegreat
15-12-03, 17:48
Originally posted by Strych9
You cant build anything NOT made for combat, like tools and such.
you can build a torch...
Ice, you're confusing a badly designed tradeskiller system for a feature of Neocron : ) If you go back a while, before retail even, Tradeskillers were awesome. Specialization didn't exist and spies could easily put enough points in combat and still have enough in a tradeskill to do fine. Monks were especialy good at this, thus why we had our Int gain nerfed. Contrary to what you're saying, since then KK has intentionaly forced us into specialization. You are supposed to train your stats for one purpose. You can be combat or you can be tradeskiller.
Your arguments against tradeskilling are rather silly...
If one can level off tradeskills, someone will find a way to macro it, powerlevel, then LoM to combat. There is no danger in tradeskills - it's all reward, no risk. That definitely runs counter to the orientation of the game...
Players have for a long time looked for ways to exploit geography to hide behind things and shoot mobs without being hurt. That doesn't mean killing mobs is not part of Neocron. You are pointing out a stumbling block, for implimenting pure tradeskillers. If thought out, though I'm sure we could come up with a way to prevent abuse, or at least major abuse.
Neocron is combat-oriented. Leveling off tradeskills does not work past a certain point. This is by design, and is evident if you've played/followed the game for the past two and a half years. If you don't like it, Neocron is not the game for you.
If you were around for the past two and a half years, you would realize that limit is because spies used to only have 70int. As with much of Neocron, kk considers it a small bug/issue and is busy doing other things. Furthermore, you can still level past 70, I did it with my alt spy. When you get enough exp for a level, go kill a roach, and you'll get your level. Then return to researching or whatever. My spy reached int 85 almost purely doing research.
In regards to Neocron being combat oriented... I'm a ppu monk. Pure Passive User, ie I don't attack. According to your definition I am not a combat class. Yet kk seems pretty intent on keeping ppu's around. To do this, they had to bastardize the idea of a ppu monk and give us a limited offense/killing ability. Did they do this because Neocron is a "combat" only game? No. They did it because it's easier to give us an offense then redo the game to let a player exist without fighting. You are citing kk's laziness as a key feature of neocron.
Neocron is a combat-oriented game. Specializing in Recycling is a significant drain on combat skills. This runs counter to the orientation of the game.
Weee, alright. Driving takes dex away which I would otherwise need for agility to balance low athletics. Research takes away int points which I desperatley need for PSU. Poking and Hacking do the same, reducing my combat ability. Recycling and Repairing also hurt my combat ability. I seriously doubt you can say none of these skills were meant to be done primarily. Why would we have so many new vehicles if drivin wasn't supposed to be specialized in? Why would tradeskillers receive boosts in the past few patches (additional res/const on imps and machina gloves). If they were just supposed to be a side hobby? Furthermore, if you do intend to be good at a tradeskill you MUST be a gimp for combat. You may consider it a balanced trade, because you only hunt mobs all day. Some of us like to pvp, which oddly enough is one the main things to do in neocron. In pvp having a tradeskill relegates you to the second class fighters. If pvp is the main purpose of this game, why on earth would tradeskills impair it? That would seem to suggest, by your logic, that noone is supposed to tradeskill.
I'm sorry Ice, but your viewpoint is flawed. Support characters exist in Neocron and should be encouraged. This includes tradeskillers, ppu's, and apu's. Each one assists in combat in their own way and plays a necessary part. The fact that people rarely want to play a tradeskiller is because they're fubar'd! The lack there of does not indicate an intended feature by KK. Before stealth and sniper rifles were introduced, spies in general were the worst class and were not very common at all. Way back in beta, Monks were horrible and a joke. Thus people rarely played them, almost noone specialized in EPU (dmg boost and rezzes). KK stepped in and modified things to make these classes more important. Tradeskillers are long past due a real overhaul.
one can level off tradeskills, someone will find a way to macro it, powerlevel, then LoM to combat. There is no danger in tradeskills - it's all reward, no risk. That definitely runs counter to the orientation of the game...
Making it so that it only lvled INT would be a start to stop this from happening as would other measures.
And my point is your plan will backfire. The only people using chems are the masochists like me who prefer to build parts for cheap rather than buy parts. Removing chems only serves to hurt the few like me and bolster the importance of barterers. However, your salvage idea serves to bolster the recycling skill without nerf anything.
It would not nerf you it would just give recyclers something to do. You would buy it from them much the same way you do from vendors now. I highly doubt they would sell chems for ridculous prices because no one would buy them and would just hunt more for the chems.
We're needed enough already. Your suggestion actually makes the barterer less useful and just serves to aggrivate a playerbase that can never find a researcher or constuctor when they need one.
Again I am not saying take the keys out of the stores, just a way for constructors to make something other than rares and a chance for clans, rich people to spend their money. If someone dosent want a faster vehicle or whatever they can just find a barter and buy a normal one.
Huh? Level 3 booster spells aren't low quality. They're in the 70% range and can be bought with slots. Level 4 armor and PA is all artifact condition when purchased.
Key word, most. I am saying that KK made MOST items low quality for a reason and that is so that players interact more. I see no reason why armor and spells should be any different.
About your last thing, these ideas arent nerfing anything. People will still get their vehicles, and weapons and spells. Who are you to say that trade skillers cant be primary characters? All of my characters so far have been trade skillers and I have enjoyed it, unlike some people I never made a character just to have it res for me or whatever. I am not saying that combat should be removed or that it shouldent be the main focus but just to make tradeskills more important.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.