View Full Version : To KK Devs: Why always use the sledghammer approach?
Ok, Ill try to make this as polite as possible...
Im guessing, you think your doing good work listening to the majority, and then comming on here, reading comments, and saying "wtf? we did what they asked, and now more complaing? screw these punks"
but the problem is, you always do things way too extremely.... so TH wanted more guards.... did that mean you had to up in 4 120/120 turrets by every GR? isnt that a tad extreme?
You had to make all faction guards 120/120? what about making them 120/120 inside hqs, but the same as they are on the streets so we can actually fight....
Ress needed a LITTLE nerf, like holy ress max 3/min and normal max 2/min but 40 sec min ress time? come on....
The fact is, we will appreciate when you listen, but why must every change you make be so extreme? why not boost and nerf things a little at a time until getting em right... then we are all happy...
I dont know why, but since beta you have been using the sledghammer approach. try using a chisel and small hammer instead and msking small changes. people ask for nerf and boosts, not destroying something or making a underpowered thing so good it makes everything else useless.
for once i agree with Vet, o_O i think KK will nerf the guards in the coming patches, becuase currently i believe it is impossible to kill npc's in faction HQ's without exploiting.
It is also impossible to raid TH, MB or TG.
btw vet, people have tested and gotten holy rezz to 24 second
cast time, so its not as bad as people try to make it sound.
yes....... I cant understand how they think.... rather to small changes that too large...
Originally posted by Rade
btw vet, people have tested and gotten holy rezz to 24 second
cast time, so its not as bad as people try to make it sound.
Not for near capped players no,
Try being rezzing someone inside the chaos caves with the low level rezz........yoiu kinda, die........
Originally posted by Oath
Not for near capped players no,
Try being rezzing someone inside the chaos caves with the low level rezz........yoiu kinda, die........
which is good
Originally posted by Rade
which is good
Well......
From an opwar standing, yeah sure, its great.......
But n00blets die a lot, and in trying to rezz them you end up dead to, wich unless you manage to kill everything yourself O_o 95% likely youll die too, if it was more like 50 then sure, but on the whole i LIKE the nerf :D just the rezz time that sucks.
i gota say i agree with all of you
but..
at least KK are now takin notice of customer feedback
its a start..
Shadow Dancer
12-12-03, 12:46
*blinks*
An extremely polite and rational post from Vet?
KOS KOS KOS KOS KOS WTF HAX
:p
I agree with Vet. Btw, capped rezz is 24 seconds. That's not TOO long. My hybrid takes 60 seconds. *snooze*
I think faction "sentries" or guards should be toned down too. If KK is concerned about them being too weak with a PPU on your side, then how about making them do a special kind of damage that can't be resisted? And that will hurt people a "fair" amount with or without a PPU. That way it will still be a challenge if you have clerical backup, and it doesn't screw over those who don't have 5000000000000000 HP to survive 1 blast. :p
ok, capped ress 24 seconds isnt bad... but the other stuff stands... kk has gotta calm down on how they change things.
One step forwards two steps back...
The guard thing is a good idea, but its so overdone. Once those guards in PP start shooting at anyone (even PPU) theyre dead unless they zone. I agree that how it should be in HQs but putting them like that outside is just killing fights. I havent had a chance to go TH yet so dunno what up there..
Peeping Tom
12-12-03, 13:19
so true..
the guard idea are a nice idea actualy .. make em strong inside and put some pos ones outside...
K4F
I'm glad I can actully feel safe in Tech Heaven and I think other factions can now use their own HQ's as a sanctury.
The change might be hard but I like it and for once HQ actully have the security they deserve.
Vet, listening to the majority of players isn't balancing the game. The simple fact is:
THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS WANT CHANGES TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER FOR THEM. THEY WOULDN'T KNOW BALANCED IF IT WALKED UPTO THEM AND KICKED THEM IN THE FACE.
If KK stopped listening to the majority of players, and instead, actually played the game. The game would be more balanced.
And this is the bit where I provide proof:
Hybrid PA (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84647)
Make TH a safe zone (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84602)
Increase DEX cap for PE's because the PEPA4 reqs were raised (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84569)
Self cast PSI Booster 1 (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84433)
Theres more but I'm not scrolling back through the forums history just yet.
In my opinion there should be more faction guards, only with lower ranks. As no player can get 120/120 I don't think, personally, that a guard should be able to get it.
Perhaps doubling their numbers and making them 70/70 or something like that would be a cooler approach, as that way they can be killed with a large group effort :)
I like the rezz nerf though, because it means Hybrids are poor rezzers, low level rezzers are OK rezzers, and devoted capped rezzers are miles better than the others.
Mingoo
Originally posted by Flyl
THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS WANT CHANGES TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER FOR THEM. THEY WOULDN'T KNOW BALANCED IF IT WALKED UPTO THEM AND KICKED THEM IN THE FACE.
Isn't that the truth.
People want a better game but still want everything there own personal way. If the guards had been 120/120 from the start I bet no one would be complaining now.
Devils Grace
12-12-03, 15:35
so those u love the guards in their hq as they are, love to play against, mobs, npc's, and such
me i like to play agaisnt players
if u think th or tg arent safe, make it urself safe
now besides op wars, wich not all of us got the opurtunity to go....u dont fight anymore u just do pvm or pvnpc's...
ohh i get, we can do like this
spam the trade to meet in k10 (exemple) wait 30 min to someone show up kuz of the genrep wont alow u to go there so u have to walk and then have a 1 min fight... wait more 30 min to him to poke and walk back again
well isnt that fun
VET --- ur totally right
now what we all have to do is cry again and wait for changes
like a hammer again..... but we cry again after
Originally posted by Flyl
Vet, listening to the majority of players isn't balancing the game. The simple fact is:
THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS WANT CHANGES TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER FOR THEM. THEY WOULDN'T KNOW BALANCED IF IT WALKED UPTO THEM AND KICKED THEM IN THE FACE.
If KK stopped listening to the majority of players, and instead, actually played the game. The game would be more balanced.
And this is the bit where I provide proof:
Hybrid PA (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84647)
Make TH a safe zone (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84602)
Increase DEX cap for PE's because the PEPA4 reqs were raised (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84569)
Self cast PSI Booster 1 (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84433)
Theres more but I'm not scrolling back through the forums history just yet.
Im pretty sure gonks thread title was sarcasm...
ReefSmoker
12-12-03, 16:13
Killing people in a place where the inhabitants are known for maintaining as much neutrality as possible, therefore less willing to resort to using violence (ask questions, then shoot etc...), well, it just doesn't do any favours in terms of what it says for the people who raid Tech Haven :p
One thing about most Fallen Angels is that they chose the faction for its ideals as opposed to the number of red or green factions (yes, some ppl choose the factions with the most green factions to it so they have very few enemies to watch out for, just as there are those who choose factions with a large number of hostile enemies, to keep them on their toes ;) ).
As has rightly been pointed out, the Fallen Angels are scientists, and therefore in a sense of roleplay, it would make sense that they've finally mastered decent security systems. In addition, seeing such successful testing of these new systems, the faction leaders would see it as a wise decision to go overkill on deploying the new security as heavily as resources allow for - considering there's been a year (and quite a few years in game time ! ) of oppression and attacks in the FA home :D [fact : no droms were harmed in the testing of the new security - this statement brought to you by the Tech Haven High Council, all rights reserved, or something...]
Also just think, faction guards are no longer easy exp (and faction sympathy) ! *shocked expression* oh wait... there's a smily for that... :eek: 8| :lol: In other words, the exp gained for killing 120/120 faction guards is for one - a lot more than it was - and for second, the rank is in line with the difficulty of faction guards as they stand now. Should they make faction guards less powerful, then they would need to lower the ranks accordingly. I am firmly against the existence of any NPC (mob or faction guard) that does not warrant its rank - and before the patch there were few faction guards who were actually deserving of their rank in terms of how lousy they were at fighting back.
Just a few thoughts from me up above about what's been mentioned so far, don't take them to heart, it's fuel for the debate you have started. I'm in favour of the challenge being put back into the game, it's no longer like it was where if we wanted to attack BD's HQ, we just waltzed in with 2 or 3 people and cleared out the faction guards. Never really saw many BD runners in there, just the occasional low lvl BD doing missions and we'd leave them alone, asking which NPCs he/she is using so we leave them alone - don't like hassling low lvls over anything and that's one of the reasons I'm not the best rper - too easy to get out of character when considering what dmg I'd do to someone else's enjoyment of the game. We all want to have fun, so I do my best to stick to fighting back when fired upon, that way I know the other person wants a fight :D
Take care,
Reefie
robdekoning
12-12-03, 17:08
I agree for the total 100% with vet, good post
i agree vet :eek:
te sledgehammer is bad, hammer and chisel is good!
This is getting strange, I'm starting to side with Vet the last few threads he has made. o_O
I agree though. I honestly don't think any guard should be 120. They are the same as us (GenTanks, PE's) but they are guards and have better weapons designed for guards (RP'ing wise), so they should be more powerful then us, but not this powerful.
I think raids should be apart of the game and encouraged. It's still killing people, but it's something else to do other then OP wars. Now raiding anywhere is impossible (MB, TH, TG, etc.). Even raiding HQ's are impossible. I always loved to hear on Zone, "TG in CA HQ, we need CA support!"
well, I hope KK agreeing makes kk change things... it will just take till spring to happen... the current guards are just stupid, they drop a good capped char in 3 seconds. also... remeber these are just guards. a good player should be able to beat any guard 1vs1. The most eleite fighters are not guards, being a guard is a low level, crappy position. Now, reza's elite chamber guards or TGs core of elite fighters for when TG's in a despertie situation should be good, but the averge joe on the street shouldnt be that tough.
In NC, you suppost to be a normal person can excell to be a great fighter, and a CS or libs suppost to be an amazing gun, therefoe I think a capped tank or pe with skill should own any street guard 1vs1.
Also, again i understand TH in an rp sense would have defences, but the defences are currently so strong nobody can raid... it should not be like that.
Psychoninja
13-12-03, 05:17
Originally posted by VetteroX
well, I hope KK agreeing makes kk change things... it will just take till spring to happen... the current guards are just stupid, they drop a good capped char in 3 seconds. also... remeber these are just guards. a good player should be able to beat any guard 1vs1. The most eleite fighters are not guards, being a guard is a low level, crappy position. Now, reza's elite chamber guards or TGs core of elite fighters for when TG's in a despertie situation should be good, but the averge joe on the street shouldnt be that tough.
In NC, you suppost to be a normal person can excell to be a great fighter, and a CS or libs suppost to be an amazing gun, therefoe I think a capped tank or pe with skill should own any street guard 1vs1.
I agreed with alot of that, the street guards do way toomuch damage, doesn't leave any room for me to defend my own territory, they're doing it for me. Wow, I get to watch my enemies drop dead before I can pull out a gun, I feel uber....
Faction HQ guards should be maxed, street guards should be toned down a bit and place away from synch lines, so people won't end up getting stuck in synch and just get massacred for standing around too long.
I believe kk said they would adjust the guards according to the comments people made on the forums, and what they saw. I hope they're taking note of this. I love the idea of guards being scattered around, and I enjoy this patch alot, but it needs to be tweaked a little.
As soon as a Tank or PE can kill a guard 1v1, then with PPU buffs they will be unkillable to guards. And that's not going to work. Maybe the guards are a bit too powerful, but they were extremely weak before now. KK may have gone a bit overboard, but I think the result is a little closer to where the guards should be. Remember this is all in preparation for DoY and the removal of safezones, so perhaps KK are just working in the safe side of things and they'll work their way down in power with the guards, instead of gradually increasing them and getting nowhere.
Powerful guards INSIDE faction HQ's are one thing....those I can stand. It's having to avoid entire parts of teh city because some asshole guard might gun me down trying to buy ammo.
Uber guards do not belong in public areas..period. those factions don't own the streets...if they want to try, it should be an effort on the players' parts to hold the turf.
Even in hq's...guards just inside the doors, guards at the GR to make sure raiding players can't camp it, and that's it. Once ya get in, you can wreak havoc, defenders can defend, and eventually drive them out.
And the rezz nerf has me all flustered...kinda makes leveling a bitch....especially in the Chaos caves. And you know how ppl just love to jump into your line of fire there....
So, I've got this Crahn APU that can't go to p1 to get pokes / tradeskills, can't level in chaos caves....
...hope KK does something about this soon. I've only been playing for a month....was having one hell of a time. But since the patch, I find myself playing less and less. It's just too much of a hassle to do anything.
Bitch bitch bitch, whine whine whine...
You people are never happy. Overall this is a decent patch. A little overpowered because KK doesn't know the meaning "slightly" nor does CoDi or whoever coded this stuff understand the difference between && and || operators. Most of the changes in this patch came directly from player's bitching on the forum. But instead of moderating them with: we'll nerf this a bit and raise that a bit... They do: Nerf this to shreds, boost this to be impossible and then nerf everything else just for fun... I do like that they finally fixed the melee combat rank bug (As a melee tank I am happy about that). Yet melee is still totally unviable for PvP or even PvM at high levels. (Try standing up face to face with a faction guard or at least chaos queen or a chaser and see how long you last while someone with a rifle can snipe from way beyond the mob's "homing in" range, and I'm not even talking about the sniper rifles.) I think they should make melee a lot more powerful. But anyway, I agree with the PPU "nerf' as you call it. You know what? If you die in chaos caves then you have nothing to be doing there in the first place! Me and a buddy of mine (2 low level melee tanks. I was using blade of ceres that I was just able to use, he was using long laserblade 2) were able to clear out the caves all on our own without deaths! No PPUs or anything. Heck a SPY if he's got half a brain can do caves without a PPU so stop complaining. Besides, it's not like the long ressurrection time actually removes the spell. It's still useful, just don't die, and if you do, get ready to wait to be brought back. That's all there is to it.
I really like how they revamped a lot of the areas in the faction HQs and in the city (Neocronicle head office was a nice touch). But they made it just too damn bright to walk around Neocron. This is cyberpunk slums, not Las Vegas. Please get rid of the stupid spotlights everywhere.
And yes, I do agree that the guards need to be toned down just a tiny bit, but after all, guards are guards. They're supposed to be tough. You shouldn't be able to run in with a spy and start killing people within the HQ with impunity (As I have seen someone do with an LE in, so no one could touch him while he killed everything in the HQ).
And for all those who whine about PP not being viable for PvP anymore, well too bad! Find a better place to PvP instead of what you now call "PvP" with your zone camping, copbot using wimps of PvP'ers. Go someplace where you can't easily run off to a safe zone and heal up. Go to Jeriko, go to some other OP, go to an anarchy zone (plenty of those around). Go to Industrial A for Reeza's sake! Any place is better then the lame zone campacron you call PvP in PP!
Once again I'll repeat for all those who whine about ressurrect spells taking too long: "LEARN NOT TO DIE". The rest of us can do it, why can't you?
Most of my chars are spies, so the guards are "one shot/burst" killers for me...
.oO(wasn't there some statements from KK that there wouldn't be something like one-shot-kills? .. ah, maybe just for playerchars...)
Anyway, my spies will just stay out of the way of them ... no more PepperPark, no more Plaza1, no more Tech Haven, no more eastern wastelands (CRP / canyons) (with different chars)...
.oO(but cutting down 'viable'/walkable sectors and replacing them with additional ones from the downloadble DoY-patch is ok... err, downloadable?... ah, sorry... must have misunderstood something completely here... never mind) :angel:
As proposed by others in some other thread, it's VITAL for us, to be able to sort our Genreplist and/or to switch on/off GRs explicitly!
Reason: GRing to the wrong exit now will surely lead to "insta death"...
But to some other point:
Originally posted by Lareolan
Heck a SPY if he's got half a brain can do caves without a PPU so stop complaining.
Hmm, let me stretch that out a bit...
- You go to caves to level (so you're not capped, and i didn't see you pointing out that caves are only for "near capped spies")
- Cave areas are "close combat"
- Spies (unless near cap) have crappiest armor and inferior "shields"
.. -> Spies have to rely mostly on "do not get hit, or die"
Now name the weapon, that a NOT near cap spy can use to inflict enough damage as to be able to tear down one or two of those level 60-80 mobs in the caves (not even taking into account, that the 80ish ones spawn their minor comrades thus providing an endless flow of enemies), even with being forced to take cover and heal for lets say 2-3(?) times before 'downing' a mob?
Impossible, as the mobs will have reached your 'covering position' and force you back to the previous cover (edge, turn in the cave, whatever)... meanwhile, mommy will respawn the lower mob, you might just managed to kill.
A spy with lets say INT/DEX 75 will still use the big 'ol Tangent-Assault-Rifle he/she started to use at DEX44, as it's damage over time in a non "longrange" combat is still the best.
I'm using my little fusion rifle to snipe WBs at long range, but i don't even dare to go against 2 of the (for instance) chaos cave level 60 mobs at the same time!
And you can be sure, that i know the game of seeking cover, heal/rebuff (selfcast) and/or switching positions.
It works, when you're able to relocate to a point that's out of comabt range of your prey. It will still have a "lock" on you, but fortunately, you can hit him before the mobs brings you into his weapon range again.
The mob has this "lock" even after breaking LOS, so i doesn't matter whether you're firing from the leftside of your cover, or from the rightside...
mob has LOS => hit!... so your only viable option is to bring yourself out of his weaponsrange! (to be able to shoot some rounds at him without getting hit)
And that's not possible in caves.
So may i kindly request you to shed some light on how a (not near cap) spy "can do" level areas like caves on his/her own?
Regards, Wilco
Originally posted by Flyl
And this is the bit where I provide proof:
Hybrid PA (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84647)
Make TH a safe zone (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84602)
Increase DEX cap for PE's because the PEPA4 reqs were raised (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84569)
Self cast PSI Booster 1 (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84433)
Theres more but I'm not scrolling back through the forums history just yet.
:lol: those threads are pure BS imo....
Hybrid PA get real... Make PA:s without negative effect to the other side, when did any char have 20 HC , -20 M-C or anything for that matter..
TH safe zone Agree... only thread I agree on before it was spooky but then again 1000000 120/120 is that for real but its tech heaven right?
Increase DEX cap for PE's :eek: :wtf: :lol: Yea..... pop more pills you need it its not that you gonna gimp on a PA4 just becasue you are a PE shit....
Self cast PSI Booster 1 Only for hybs.. APU:s cant use them -40 to PPU.... or something and PPU:s dont need it so why should hybs have it?
Yea pretty bad threads... good that KK doesnt do all that we runners ask for then many more would quit.. :rolleyes:
Psyco Groupie
13-12-03, 16:12
the game is better than it ever has been - shut the fuck up or leave ... the game reallllly wouldnt miss vet
Originally posted by Wilco
But to some other point:
Hmm, let me stretch that out a bit...
- You go to caves to level (so you're not capped, and i didn't see you pointing out that caves are only for "near capped spies")
- Cave areas are "close combat"
- Spies (unless near cap) have crappiest armor and inferior "shields"
.. -> Spies have to rely mostly on "do not get hit, or die"
Now name the weapon, that a NOT near cap spy can use to inflict enough damage as to be able to tear down one or two of those level 60-80 mobs in the caves (not even taking into account, that the 80ish ones spawn their minor comrades thus providing an endless flow of enemies), even with being forced to take cover and heal for lets say 2-3(?) times before 'downing' a mob?
Impossible, as the mobs will have reached your 'covering position' and force you back to the previous cover (edge, turn in the cave, whatever)... meanwhile, mommy will respawn the lower mob, you might just managed to kill.
I never said you had to be near cap. But you do have a to a bit on the upper level to hunt in caves which only makes sense. There are plenty of places you can level at before you can go to caves, I really dislike all those xx/20 characters who decide to go to caves unless the PPU is their friend and is there to help them powerlevel.
But I wasn't lieing when I said a spy could do caves if s/he is careful. I've done caves with my researcher spy when she was around /46 or so. I had an LE in (so no PPU for me), and I was using a libby. And you know what? I hardly ever died, usually just due to lag/fre or bad circumstances. (Such as all mobs shooting me all at once). I have also helped a friend solo caves, he has a libby spy around /50, I had a PPU. That was all. But my own spy did it without any PPUing, so it is possible. Just be smart about positioning and be careful.
Originally posted by Wilco
A spy with lets say INT/DEX 75 will still use the big 'ol Tangent-Assault-Rifle he/she started to use at DEX44, as it's damage over time in a non "longrange" combat is still the best.
I'm using my little fusion rifle to snipe WBs at long range, but i don't even dare to go against 2 of the (for instance) chaos cave level 60 mobs at the same time!
And you can be sure, that i know the game of seeking cover, heal/rebuff (selfcast) and/or switching positions.
It works, when you're able to relocate to a point that's out of comabt range of your prey. It will still have a "lock" on you, but fortunately, you can hit him before the mobs brings you into his weapon range again.
The mob has this "lock" even after breaking LOS, so i doesn't matter whether you're firing from the leftside of your cover, or from the rightside...
mob has LOS => hit!... so your only viable option is to bring yourself out of his weaponsrange! (to be able to shoot some rounds at him without getting hit)
And that's not possible in caves.
All I have to say to that is, if that's your setup don't go crying because you can't hunt at chaos caves. Instead you should go hunt WBs or even decayed horrors and brutes! It's called strategy, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, so don't bring a TAR to chaor caves.
Originally posted by Wilco
So may i kindly request you to shed some light on how a (not near cap) spy "can do" level areas like caves on his/her own?
It's all about armor, resists and weapon choice. Once you got these 3 down, you're in the clear. The only problem in chaos caves at CRP is that very first mob that is right at the zone line so you can't hide and have to have someone else kill it for you. Other than that you can pretty much get them all (except for queen as well). Either that or go to the other chaos caves where there is no mob in the first room and/or no queen at all.
hmmm well, finally,
Techhaven isnt a place thats a pking haven, at last we as FA runners have a HQ thats well defended and useful. Im sorry if the pkers find it hard to kill us all now, u must be really bored with no easy runs to pk in TH :wtf:
As reef said we are scientists, we do have uber technology and why the fuck should it not be? If u were FA vet and had been for the time alot of us have been then im sure u would be saying that the new security is uber.
This new patch has finally sorted factions into something like there proper places.
PS: come see our new turrets sometime vet :lol: :angel:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.