View Full Version : Think we should start changing the way some APU spells work?
Heavyporker
10-12-03, 22:01
Nowadays, APUs are too straightforward, despite KK's intentions.
Nowadays, all APUs do are do damage and de-buff PPUs.
Nowadays, APUs need some real choices to make. They need some real playing styles - not just get buffs and shoot powerful damage spells.
So, I want to suggest some different spells, bring up some old ideas, and maybe bring to the table discussion of some APU issues. This is for reasoned, thought-out, carefully considered, and OVER ALL --- *!* CALM *!* discussion. Any flames or crazy shit, I'm going to ask a mod to excise it.
Now, here we go. APUs need a variety of attacking styles:
-- The PSI Blasts need re-working - as they stand now, their AoE is so tight it's not funny - if you're shooting for hitting more than one target, they have to be copopluating each other. How about expanding their AoE to the width of a current barrel - just one cast, arcing down, and BOOM, all the damage is splashed out and dealt out in one hit, aside from integral fire/poison stacks
-- The multi energy bolts and multi lightning bolts are excellent in their applications. I think it would be interesting to see multi firelances, and multi poison bolts. I envision the graphics for multi firelances to be the stream from about 5 flamethrower guns tied together and splashing around on targets. The multi poison bolts to be like a stream of several poison blobs jumping up into the air and arcing towards your target(s), and then splashing down in an uncontrolled rain.
-- If you recall, the Sorceress in Diablo 2 had this "Inferno" spell - I want that in too - slow cast-up, but once you start, it keeps going on until you run out of mana or stop shooting (pressing mouse button), the graphics could be like the plasma cannon's fire - turned orange-yellow and FLOWING away from the caster. Who wants to see Gentank vs Psi flamer battles? :D
Now, APUs need some sort of realizable "support" roles where they don't do damage (directly). I recall one idea that shadow dancer bought up ages ago:
-- Lower Resist. Those APU spells would be essentially strong anti-buffs, and each type would only target one resist. So to say, a Holy Surge would put -30 or -40 ENR, a Holy Sear would put the same but in FIR, a Holy Sickness for poison, a Holy Irradiation for Xray. Should something be put for for anti- force resist? This sort of thing would have careful consideration be taken in their application.
-- What about a blinding spell? Essentially an offensive spell - a normal blinding would give about the same drugflash as a yellow drug, the holy blinding would give the same as a green drug.
- any other ideas that would enable APUs to step back and just support their team?
Apus also need some sort of personal offensive shield, something to keep people their distance... as from one of my Idea Novas:
How about PSI Auras? I propose... for the APU - Burning Aura, Poison Cloud Aura, and Energy Nova and Energy Halo Aura. For the PPU, the Parashock Aura. I intend those spells to be used to punish melee and close-up attackers near to the casting Monk. The auras would last for perhaps 15 seconds, but I wouldn't object to 30 seconds. The Burning Aura graphics effect would be the fire effect from the fire barrel turned sideways, elongated and linked into a ring about the caster, but - the price for using this halo is that it is akin to burning - you dont take the actual damage, but you get blinded and you jutter around from the heat. The Energy Halo Aura graphics effect would be like having an Energy Halo cast on yourself, but continously spinning.... it's a cool effect in my opinion. The Energy Nova is when that halo actually bursts away from the caster in its center - it has a limited area of effect, comparable with a rocket blast -but its a one shot deal, unlike the Energy Halo Aura. The Poison Cloud Aura would be like the poison cloud from the poison barrel, enlarged and more opaque - it would hide the caster, actually giving it defense, but it would obscure the caster's view a lot, taking away his ability to do offense - a tradeoff. For the PPU, as I mentioned -the parashock aura would stop people from staying with the Monk once they caught up with him, letting the Monk get away.
I don't think the PSI Auras aren't that crazy - if you can put out the effort to make a concentrated stream of power at a distance, surely you can do a more diffuse release of that same power near you. Plus, the use of those Auras would blind the caster, hence he'd have a damn hard time just going out and attacking.
-- And also... I think that the Chaos Queen FlameAvalanche, nice as it is, should be transformed - into a fireball/fire barrel - it is launched at a target like a fireball, the ball goes out to the target, it blows up, hitting the target for one stack of direct fire, and releases a fire barrel under his feet! A true avalanche!
I think that those changes would add some true variety and a proper supporting side role for APUs. All other classes get like four or five choices in their weapons (even the PPU, overburdened as he is), the APU at his pinnacle essentially has a choice of two (let's not start on the barrels, I agree with SD that they can hardly be effective enough at PvP)
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 22:16
Sorry Porker, even though apus aren't even that unbalanced, people are gonna exaggerate and say they are "vastly" overpowered and jump on the bandwagon, because of that you'll get most voting NO to any idea to help out or enhance apus.
I think if you value variety, the tank needs some loving before the APU. The APU as a sublcass of monks has more variety than the entire class of tanks. :)
But overall, the more choices the merrier.
Heavyporker
10-12-03, 22:34
Gentanks get LESS variety than APUs?!? OMFG.
Lesse - flamer, grenade launchers, gatling, plasma cannon, laser cannon, rockets, raygun cannons, fusion cannons. force/energy/fire/xray/poison and can be a pure damage type or cross-typing.
thats against - multibolts, barrel, beam... energy/fire/poison.. and in one odd and really too underpowered case, force lance. All spells are pure damage type.
I put up the HC Gentank against the APU. Melee essentally gets - sword/claw, laserblade, shocker.
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Gentanks get LESS variety than APUs?!? OMFG.
Lesse - flamer, grenade launchers, gatling, plasma cannon, laser cannon, rockets, raygun cannons, fusion cannons. force/energy/fire/xray/poison and can be a pure damage type or cross-typing.
thats against - multibolts, barrel, beam... energy/fire/poison.. and in one odd and really too underpowered case, force lance. All spells are pure damage type.
I put up the HC Gentank against the APU. Melee essentally gets - sword/claw, laserblade, shocker.
ok now lets go over the USEFULL weapons yea
APU: Holy Frightening, Fire Apoc, Energy/Fire/Poison Beam, The rare barrels and the holy energy barrel. Half of these being store brought weapons.
Tanks: CS, TSG. Thats right, CS being the 1 usefull weapon, TSG for limited situations. Melee being dreadfully useless. Tank AOE sucks, moon, mal, doombeamer all have limited use to spamming and leveling, and their all bloody unaccurate
I have been going PKing with my APU and he's rank 41 where as if you try that with a tank, you aint getting very far, my APU has energy and poison beam, The TPC aint that bad but its no where near as efficient as the beams for pvp.
Look at the ammount of spells there are for APU/PPU put together, look at the ammount of weapons for HC tanks, when leveling a tank you use a unlabled laser, then onto a gat, and i always stay with the gat untill I can use a TSG/CS . . .
Melee is godawful, pathetic damage for pvp, pathetic range (as its melee) and with parashock in the game, melee's always gonna be a step below everyone else.
Yea HC gets ammo mods, APU gets pure poison attacks. Melee gets no mods.
APU get no reticule, HC gets the slowest aiming in the game. APU has high ROF and higher damage, HC gets good damage good ROF.
Mumblyfish
10-12-03, 22:52
Fenix, as a tank you'll cap melee easy. Do what I did and pick a second weapon profession. Rifles to hit them far away, when they get close bust out a Devil's Grace and smite the fuckers from here to Fucktown USA.
Of course, I'm still only rank 22, but it should work in theory... :p
Heavyporker... we are not talking variety of weapons... we are talking variety of playstyles.
With EVERY weapon you name, the ONLY thing the tank does is deal damage and get buffed.
I was referring to this statement from the first post:
Nowadays, all APUs do are do damage and de-buff PPUs.
Nowadays, APUs need some real choices to make. They need some real playing styles - not just get buffs and shoot powerful damage spellsTanks dont even get to debuff. They just deal damage.
So again to clarify... playing style is the subject, not just weapon selection.
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 22:59
Fenyx, What a horribly biased post. Let me break it down :rolleyes:
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
ok now lets go over the USEFULL weapons yea
APU: Holy Frightening, Fire Apoc, Energy/Fire/Poison Beam, The rare barrels and the holy energy barrel. Half of these being store brought weapons.
Tanks: CS, TSG. Thats right, CS being the 1 usefull weapon, TSG for limited situations. Melee being dreadfully useless. Tank AOE sucks, moon, mal, doombeamer all have limited use to spamming and leveling, and their all bloody unaccurate
Fire apoc is weak. It's weaker and slower than HL. The only time it can possibly be good is if the person has shitty fire resist, inwhich case a FIRE modded CS can also rape them. Fire apoc is like TSG for tanks.
Secondly, you mention the rare barrels as useful, then say tank aoe is limited to leveling and spamming?
:lol:
ALL the rare barrels are crap for PvP. And if you name "1-2" situations where someone used it, then I can name 1-2 situations where someone used tank aoe for PvP. The truth is, tank and apu AOE suck for PvP. Their just good for leveling. Holy pest is crap period.
And since you're mentioning the "flaws" of tank AOE, like no accurasy. Please remmeber you can actually shoot it from a distance, instead of kissing the enemy's to cast barrels.
Oh and, Fire beam is useful? :lol:
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Look at the ammount of spells there are for APU/PPU put together, look at the ammount of weapons for HC tanks, when leveling a tank you use a unlabled laser, then onto a gat, and i always stay with the gat untill I can use a TSG/CS . . .
You can't compare ALL psi spells here. Because this is apu/hc comparison. You're really grasping here. APU doesn't have much variety, neither do tanks. The only unique thing apu has is antimuffs.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Melee is godawful, pathetic damage for pvp, pathetic range (as its melee) and with parashock in the game, melee's always gonna be a step below everyone else.
True. But that's because meleeERs in general are underpowered. Hopefully KK will fix that.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Yea HC gets ammo mods, APU gets pure poison attacks. Melee gets no mods.
Poison is weak. Their are DRUGS, SANCTUMS, and SPELLS just to counter it. Where is my anti-CS drug?
Who cares about ammo mods vs pure attacks? IMO doing 2 types of damage is better than 1. I wish apu had "ammo" mods.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
APU get no reticule, HC gets the slowest aiming in the game. APU has high ROF and higher damage, HC gets good damage good ROF.
Tanks also get better resists and more health. Forgot that right? Tanks can use beginner PSI buffs. Heal, heal sanctum, deflector. Apus can't use any buffs period.
Please, if you're gonna do a comparison, try not to make it so incredibly biased.
Heavyporker
10-12-03, 23:00
Hmm.. lesse... Gentanks were MADE to fight. They have a variety of possible styles to pick up - HC and Melee and rifle/pistol.
The skewed efficacy is not due to the class, its the game mechanics and the weapon structure ( see lupus' suggested weapon TL shuffle ideas on TS)
Gentanks level up faster and don't NEED a PPU to survive more than a few hits in a row.
Also you made a very flawed arguement saying look at HC weaponry AND then look at APU/PPU combined spells. that's very flawed.
PSI Monks were INTENDED by KK to have a support role with minimal soloing capability.. well, congrats, the PPU gets that all right. APU on its face gets a much more difficult balancing job thanks to the direct damage spells and the difficulty of making offensive supporting spells. I mean, maybe if you took out the high level direct damage spells ( halo level and above, but leaving the lances, multibolts and barrels), then moved PSI Shield, damage boost, and parashock over to APU, and gave them the anti-resists... THEN you would get a realistic APU support model...
oh... my god... did I just hit on a whole new idea?!
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Sorry Porker, even though apus aren't even that unbalanced, people are gonna exaggerate and say they are "vastly" overpowered and jump on the bandwagon, because of that you'll get most voting NO to any idea to help out or enhance apus.
There are reasons, at op wars you mostly see monks.
@porker
Would you like to state a reason why monks need more an better toys?
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 23:10
Originally posted by KimmyG
There are reasons, at op wars you mostly see monks.
Right. Because of the over importance of monks. However, I think an apu without a ppu is close to balance.
Face it Tanks are supposed to be a little boring. They kill things with large weapons. Monks on the other hand should have VARIED spells.
How about summoning powers? You know in D2 when necromancers could raise things they killed to fight with them for a short time. Or if you had like say a dagger and you cast that certain spell then you made an iron golem?
2 quick spell ideas.
Raise- Raises a enemy you killed to help you fight for a short amount of time. The better the spell the higher ranks you can raise and for a longer amount of time.
Summon XXX creature- Summons the creature named in the spell, will fight for you for a certain amount of time.
Unlike soul clusters they should only attack what you dictate or if you set them on free roaming mode. If in free roaming mode they fight like soul clusters. In controlled mode you have a special spell that you use to direct them. Whatever you click on they attack.
ghandisfury
10-12-03, 23:12
Still digesting it....just wanted to be notified when new posts were up:) .
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Right. Because of the over importance of monks. However, I think an apu without a ppu is close to balance.
Becaus of there overpoweredness. Apart from monks you need 3 hackers. But overall a pure monk combo team is by far suppiorior to any other team you can build up.
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 23:16
Originally posted by KimmyG
Becaus of there overpoweredness.
I disagree.
It's about importance as well. The ppu is at the center of the problem, being wayyyyyyyyyyyy too important and having huge roles that no one else can even come close to doing. You NEED a ppu if the enemy has one. And since apus can debuff them, then they automatically become part of that "need".
Originally posted by KimmyG
But overall a pure monk combo team is by far suppiorior to any other team you can build up.
I think it's better, but "far superior" is a stretch IMO. ;)
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think it's better, but "far superior" is a stretch IMO. ;)
Whats near the lvl of nothing but HL and HP's?
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 23:21
Energy beam and parabeam. :lol:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Energy beam and parabeam. :lol:
GG I been owned.
Anyway my point still is I belive monks are alot stronger than all other classes and seeing as how a great deal arn't down with monk-o-cron I dont see how more toys for monks helps the class at all.
Heavyporker
10-12-03, 23:33
omg.. kimmy, did you even read my posts? all the reasons you ever need.
lesse.. we're talking about APUs here not PPUs, so don't lump it all into Monks.
And moreover, its not merely more toys, its a change in the role of APUs, a shift from mere damage dealers to an actual support role.
did no one see a new proposal I just posted? well let me bring this up: "quote self"
-- PSI Monks were INTENDED by KK to have a support role with minimal soloing capability.. well, congrats, the PPU gets that all right. APU on its face gets a much more difficult balancing job thanks to the direct damage spells and the difficulty of making offensive supporting spells. I mean, maybe if you took out the high level direct damage spells ( halo level and above, but leaving the lances, multibolts and barrels), then moved PSI Shield, damage boost, and parashock over to APU, and gave them the anti-resists... THEN you would get a realistic APU support model --
how about it? remove halos (yes shadow, they're cool, but can they stay in the new balancing scheme? ) keep debuffs/barrels/multibolts, move parashock and damage boost and psi shield, then give the anti-resists. can this possibly be unbalancing? would current apus accept this?
Shadow Dancer
10-12-03, 23:35
move parashock and damage boost to apu?
That would seriously overpower apus to the 20th degree.
I like the idea of anti-resists and auras. Stuff apus should have had a long time ago.
Heavyporker
11-12-03, 00:14
let me see, shadow...
no halos/beams...
how would parashock overpower apus?
Shadow Dancer
11-12-03, 00:16
Originally posted by Heavyporker
let me see, shadow...
no halos/beams...
how would parashock overpower apus?
Wait a second. No halos or beams? You mean we don't have the role of the damage dealer anymore?
And all we get are some anti resist spells and 2 ppu spells? So you want us to have the worst offense and 2nd worst defense?
You want us to be a PPU who dropped out of PSI school. O_o
Heavyporker
11-12-03, 00:19
fuck it. shadow, go back to reading school, then go back and read my posts.
i've outlined them well enough without having to quote myself, yet I did, and still you're completely misconstruting my posts.
Shadow Dancer
11-12-03, 00:23
Originally posted by Heavyporker
fuck it. shadow, go back to reading school, then go back and read my posts.
You expect people to respond to your discussion when you talk like that to them?
Originally posted by Heavyporker
i've outlined them well enough without having to quote myself, yet I did, and still you're completely misconstruting my posts.
How did I completely "misconstrut" your posts?
Please explain. I'm all ears. But without the stupid insults please. :rolleyes:
As cool as the shit you've stated would be, all you've managed to do is make me hate my apu even more... :p
Yes yes yes, in Diablo I loved the 'frozen orb' and novas, those spells that spread like a ring outwards from the caster
At the moment for a high level APU there really is only the Holy Lighting because Fire Apocalypse takes some time and the Holy Thunder/Firestorm are really only for lots of mobs at the same time
Since Monks dont have anything at all in terms of epic items, I still just run around with my holy lighting, the other spells (rares) are so incredibly hard to come by that I simply cannot risk loosing them
If there was an epic spell, at least you would have something that you could not loose and put into your second slot
APU to me is the most fun char in the game to play, but since there are not even the minimum buffs, naturally i die all the time which becomes tedious
Shadow Dancer
11-12-03, 00:45
Originally posted by NeoChick
Yes yes yes, in Diablo I loved the 'frozen orb' and novas, those spells that spread like a ring outwards from the caster
That would be cool. But Porker is suggesting the removal of all higher level direct damage spells.
Don't tell me you agree with THAT!?
read through the post briefly, basically you want greater variety in how spells work.
im all for it, but lets not cluter the store shops more so like they are now!
I get his post now trade of APU attack spells for some shit attack spells and give them para and dmg boost spam. Dont think to many apu would be to happy about this.
Heavyporker
11-12-03, 18:45
o.. m... g...
fine, fine, I start all over again.
as self-quote:
-- PSI Monks were INTENDED by KK to have a support role with minimal soloing capability.. well, congrats, the PPU gets that all right. APU on its face gets a much more difficult balancing job thanks to the direct damage spells and the difficulty of making offensive supporting spells. I mean, maybe if you took out the high level direct damage spells ( halo level and above, but leaving the lances, multibolts and barrels), then moved PSI Shield, damage boost, and parashock over to APU, and gave them the anti-resists... THEN you would get a realistic APU support model --
how about it? remove halos (yes shadow, they're cool, but can they stay in the new balancing scheme? ) keep debuffs/barrels/multibolts, move parashock and damage boost and psi shield, then give the anti-resists. can this possibly be unbalancing? would current apus accept this?
Lesse, we keep several direct damage spells, and we get the more "offensive" defensive spells, and with damage boost, our remaining direct damage spells should be able to get back up to a decent point. I'm hearing a lot of stuff about making APU spells line of sight, so removing beams/halos would have to happen in either instance, right?
Let me try to make a more structured description... these do not include the modified PSI Blasts and Auras.
All Barrels get raise of 10 TLs, Holy Barrels are upped to TL90+ if they're not, and you would get normal/blessed/holy lances, the holy being about TL 85ish ( about the middle between holy halos and beams), multibolts follow the same normal/blessed/holy scheme and the holy gets a good uppage in TL... that means our direct damage spells stay decent, but none go above TL95 ( excepting rare barrels). Chaos Queen Flameavalanche stays at its TL, giving us something to shoot for.
We would also get the damage boost (direct and sanctum), meaning we *should* still do about the same damage as with beams (but we have to work more for it with extra casting of the DB).
We would also get PSI Shield as a defensive option since it CAN'T be extended to others. One can ONLY have PSI Shield on OR S/D - if one is on, the other can't be put on. And I still stand that for each point of damage done takes 2 to 3 points of mana. (note - I said defensive option here, because spies get their stealth and can get completely out of the fight - even with our mana subbing somewhat for our health, we're still very vulnerable)
We would also get (nerfed and slightly weakened in slowdown effect) all things Parashock - but halo/beam/Holy Parashock would be removed in the same spirit.
We would get special anti-resist spells as described earlier - hefty one-resist malus ( only one anti-resist can be put on a target at a time, would also have to work in PvM )
And, damn, I'd love to see SoulClusters just have PSI/MST as a req...
So in effect - APUs would be the paingivers/cursers that still have the ability to directly do damage to targets - but the focus here would be that APUs are encouraged to step back and take a much stronger support role. We'd still do pretty decent damage with DB, see, and as I said, the holy lances would be in between the TL of the removed halos and beams, so how can that be overpowering?
Plus - with DB and Parashock taken from PPUs, they get a double bonus - they won't have to deal directly with mobs when in a team. Plus they would have to focus on their own team, not the other's, when in PvP...
(to further readers - I talked in detail, please do the courtesy of doing so in your reply - no one liners.)
Originally posted by Heavyporker
[B]Hmm.. lesse... Gentanks were MADE to fight. They have a variety of possible styles to pick up - HC and Melee and rifle/pistol.Look, *I* am not the one dictating what a playstyle is. YOU are. And YOU said the following:
"They need some real playing styles - not just get buffs and shoot powerful damage spells."
So then *I* say that Tanks have it even worse. All they do is get buffs and do damage, but they cannot debuff or anything of that nature.
Then you come back and say we have weapon choices?
SO WHAT????
Sure, I can do HC and melee and rifle/pistol... but guess what... that is STILL the ONE playstyle you lament- doing damage.
I am sticking to YOUR criteria. Would be nice if you do the same. This is about playstyles, not weapons, eh?
Gentanks level up faster and don't NEED a PPU to survive more than a few hits in a row.Gentanks level up faster? Not sure about that. My tank is currently up at El Farid, and the monks in there do HELLA more damage than I am capable of doing. APUs get energy barrel at Psi 40. Best tank weapon at Str 40? Unlabeled gat cannon. I hope I dont have to explain the exp providing aspects of an energy barrel vs an unlabeled gat cannon. I have played a monk to the point of capping Psi, and the barrel spells absolutely own for levelling.
And regardless, if you are talking about playstyle, tanks have it as boring as it gets. Not sure what levelling speed has to do with that at all.
Im not saying this is a big deal- just that you are flat wrong if you think monks have fewer playstyle choices (not attack choices, playstyle choices) than tanks.
Tanks may be designed to simply be fighters, but that doesnt mean there shouldnt be actual variations in playstyle. APUs may ALSO be intended to only be fighters.. but by being an APU that already one full choice you made to get there.
Heavyporker
11-12-03, 19:18
*sigh*
I didn't bring GenTanks up. You did. And please... tell me.. did KK intend Gentanks to have a role other than deal damage and take damage?
I'm bringing up ideas on how to expand KK's intention of making APU a support class. You didn't do anything of the sort, neither for this thread or for Gentanks. I've gotten nothing from you but "hey, why should APUs get more playstyles?! Work on Gentanks ffs!"
Well, go ahead. Belly up to the bar of player contribution and put up a thread on ideas how to expand GenTanks' roles, and I'll look through it unbiasedly, and not try to hold it back simply because it offers more variety to one class than another.
But for now... This thread. APU. Support Role.
edited erroneous remark
how about the game gets more content / fixes first before pissing around with monks again........
Heavyporker
11-12-03, 19:47
evs.. go back, look up and look around for something that starts with P and ends in 3... , and has atch 19 in the middle.
yeah which contains yet another monk change
and omg - you are on about even more changes to monks before even testing these ones fully.
apu's arent and never will be a support class.
they do massive damage and are frail.
i take it you arent an apu :/
edit: oh yeah - your sarcasm isnt even witty. its pretty shit.
Even in duels unbuffed a apu > all in most cases.(even tank cant hardly win against a good apu in duel.. But yeah how to fix it i dont see a solution tbh....apu's are weak but extremely high dmg with ppu a combined <<Dream Team>>
But solo very weak...no end 2 this discussion. Yeah what does it mather if u are tank,pe, spy and u fight versus a buffed apu ur dmg will suck like hell compared to the apu in damage taking/output...
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