Too many factions?

[RayBob]

The current faction system is pure garbage. Does anyone really think we need 12 factions? There are so many convoluted alliances. We have 2 clans that we are both allied with and yet they are enemies to each other!

I think there should be 3 factions: pro-city, anti-city, and criminal (not these names though). If you kill another runner in your faction you not only take a soullight hit but a significant faction hit and at a certain point you are kicked out of the faction. You become a factionless runner for some set amount of time and any faction can freely kill you without soullight loss.

I think there would be some real advantages to forcing people into fewer factions and loyalty to their faction. For one, there would be more OP fights and activity in general for a small and largely bored community. Faction chat would be truly useful since roughly 1/3 of the server would hear you and hopefully rally to the aid of your faction. There are so many clanless runners or runners in small clans who never get to participate in OP fights. If a call-to-arms across your faction chat could rally all these people I think it would be more fun for everyone.

Ray

[Mumblyfish]

Keep the current factions, but have them "share" alliances. IE there will still be Biotech/Tangent/Proto/Next/Diamond, but alliance-wise they will all the allied/hostile to the same people.

Involves very little tinkering.

[KimmyG]

Reading MJS and the cronicale I am starting to think that is very much what they might be planing.

[RayBob]

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Keep the current factions, but have them "share" alliances. IE there will still be Biotech/Tangent/Proto/Next/Diamond, but alliance-wise they will all the allied/hostile to the same people.

Involves very little tinkering.
Great idea and it accomplishes the same thing with little effort for KK. You could divide the 12 factions up--4 each into one of 3 groups. All 4 in each group would be allied to each other and hostile to the other 8 and faction chat would go across the 4 factions. However, I still think there should be severe penalties for killing anyone outside of your faction group so that you don't end up with cross-group alliances. Just curious, how would you divide them up?

[Mumblyfish]

Something like that requires REAL thought due to how factions are at the moment, but here's what I'd imagine a rough draft to be like.

The Pro-City
CityAdmin
Protopharm
NEXT
Tangent Technologies
Biotech

The Neutral
Fallen Angels
Diamond Real Estate
City Mercs

Criminals
Black Dragon
Tsunami Syndicate

The Anti-City
Twilight Guardian
Dome of York
Crahn Sect

Pro-City Sympathies
NEUTRAL - Neutral
CRIMINAL - Hostile
ANTI - Hostile

Neutral Sympathies
PRO - Neutral
CRIMINAL - Hostile
ANTI - Neutral

Criminal Sympathies
PRO - Hostile
NEUTRAL - Hostile
ANTI - Hostile

Anti-City Sympathies
PRO - Hostile
NEUTRAL - Neutral
CRIMINAL - Hostile

So there's four ways to play...

Pro-City - Fight the Pepper Park criminals to retain order in the city, defend the wastelands against the anti-city.

Neutral - Fight the Pepper Park criminals, try to stay out of the pro/anti-city fight... or simply follow the money!

Criminal - Kill 'em all!

Anti-City - Fight the pro-city alliance to destroy Neocron... but the Pepper Park criminals, as evil as they are, quite like having a city to live in. You'll have to get past them first.

Thoughts?

[ezza]

if anyone tries to remove my blackdragon faction ill bite them:mad:

[ReefSmoker]

Don't worry, come DoY (whoops, BDoY I meant) the faction situation will be changed. Factions are going to be divided into two sides, pro-city and anti-city. Anti-city will reside in DoY itself (the DoY scum betray their allies so end up shooting themselves in the foot).

Basically as I said in another thread this will help improve the roleplay because there will only be two sides to choose from, you'll just be expanding upon that choice by indicating your morals (or lack of them) by the faction you choose.

It's all messy just now, but come BDoY it will all become more black and white.

Take care,

Reefie

[Nidhogg]

Originally posted by ReefSmoker
Don't worry, come DoY (whoops, BDoY I meant) Hey, at least BDOY is searchable. ;)

N

[ReefSmoker]

Originally posted by Nidhogg
Hey, at least BDOY is searchable. ;)

N

Keeping an eye on me eh ? :D

I'm being good, honest ! Might as well try and be optimistic, but you can bet I'll be paying close attention to 'the facts' as soon as MJS puts some official word on exactly what's happening out for us to feed on. This is one fact I know for sure from reading the official posts on the german forums - gotta thank SnowCrash for teaching me enough basic german language to be able to wade my way through that minefield - be glad you're on the english forums :p

Take care,

Reefie

[Scikar]

What leads you to this conclusion Reef? I saw you post that faction expectation in a different thread but there you said it was what you think will happen. Have you found something on the German forums to back this up? Or is it a logical step on from hints by KK?

[ezza]

its more than likely going to move to 2 sides, i think there making Bio and TT allied or something(not sure there was something in the neocronicle) and BD and TG will be allied acording to the BD faction counciller though not hurd much about that in a while

so it looks like the 2 sides are being moved togeather

Edit: what PK has linked was what i was thinking off

[Psycho Killa]

The latest neocronicle already hints to it scikar...

http://www.neocron.com/index.php?name=NeoContent&op=modload&file=index&pageID=176

First article.

[Mumblyfish]

Originally posted by ezza
its more than likely going to move to 2 sides, i think there making Bio and TT allied or something(not sure there was something in the neocronicle) and BD and TG will be allied acording to the BD faction counciller though not hurd much about that in a while

so it looks like the 2 sides are being moved togeather

I don't know about the latter, but the former makes a lot of sense. At their core, Biotech and Tangent Technologies are businesses. Sure, they're in competition with each other... but their petty little profit-war has cost the lives of many of their employees. Not only that, but the war stemmed simply from a wager between some higher-ups, and the two used to be under the same umbrella (Tangent Tech).

To be fair, I still don't know why Biotech and Tangent Tech blow each other's brains out. The people who work at the Chinese down the road don't go postal on the Chippy just to get a few quid.

[Scikar]

I did see that but I was expecting something more along the lines of making BT and TT neutral, making PP hostile to TG, something like that. I hope there are at least way fights anyway, one side vs another is nowhere near as much fun as a 3 way fight.

[VictorKruger]

From what i've been reading, with all the nema and all the little hints about what's going to happen in BDOY, i think, like Reef pointed out, there will be two main divisions that all the factions will be in one or the other.

As far as i can judge, the anti-city factions will be inside the Dome of York, and the pro-city factions will be in Neocron.

My guess is that the Crahn, Fallen Angels, Tsunami, and the Black Dragon will be re-located to the Dome of York, or will be able to visit the Dome of York, as well as a new playable faction, Dome of York. As for the Anarchy Breed, you never know, they might become playable as well, and lets not forget the regent mutants that are becoming more of a threat to the city of neocron.

Then Biotech, Protopharm, City Admin, Diamond Real estates, Tangent Technology, and NEXT will be the pro-city factions that stay inside of neocron.

As for the City Mercs, I really have no clue where to put these guys. Because they could be considered terrorists if the are found out helping DOY sympathizers and banned from entering Neocron, but if they help out any pro-city factions, they could be shuned from the Dome of York.

Now as for internal power struggles between factions inside of two divisions, that might have two possibilites. One: all the factions in each division will be at least, neutral to each other, and hostile to the other factions in the opposite division. Or two: there will be some minor power-struggles between factions inside their own divisions, to keep the PvP aspect more viable, in case, there are still low populations when BDOY is released.

[Dade Murphey]

I like the current faction system...but there NEEDS to be more reason to be a particular faction...and more importance needs to be placed on being a faction other than "who will I be able to kill"...like in another thread...SL should go...it ruins faction importance...

[PrizM]

I like the three faction idea better then the 2 adds more flavor :)

[ezza]

yeah does need to be a reason to stay in a faction, and i dont mean stuff like epic rewards.

i like the ideas behind blackdragon, all the drugs gambling etc.

but the only thing that really binds me to them is the fact that from following F6(im sure theres a few out there that do so) ive ended up with -99 FS with most factions except BD, so im loyal to BD cos i cant be assed getting the symp up for another faction :P

[Carinth]

Simplifying it to just two sides is a bad move. I get the feeling I could rp my faction Tsunami better then the game designers can. We are not anti city and we are not pro city! We have a vested interest in keeping NC around, yet we're also going to make money over at DOY. I seriously doubt anyone in Tsunami would burn bridges and give up all the revenue from Pepper Park, just because we don't like CA.

[Jest]

Dang Id like to be more clear cut factions but Ill be really dissapointed if FA is grouped with anti-city. Not because I dont want to fight CA (I do), but because Ive never really been fond of DoY excerting their influence over TH, I could care less about them. I wish we would remain our own people. :(

I think BD and TS people would be dissapointed if they were grouped with every one too.

[ezza]

Originally posted by Jest

I think BD and TS people would be dissapointed if they were grouped with every one too.

i know as a BD im not the happiest bunny about.

i kinda like the BD TS owning PP, both being gang type factions, on the whole of it as were just thugs(well BD are anyway:D )what does DOY matter to us? as long as we have our turf and the drugs still flow, the dragons will be happy.

why should both TS and BD relocate to some faraway land

[Selendor]

I think that if a 2 sided faction shift may be inevitable, it will be vital that the pro-city side is given advantages at the time of BDoY's release, else everyone and their aunt is going to go anti-city to check out the new areas. They are speaking about re-designing many areas of Neocron City so maybe this is part of it.

Also, as ever, what we would all like to see would be a working clan war system, so that the faction soulight hits and turret/GR security would be different if you were at war with a clan. Someday, fingers crossed....

[Strych9]

A 2-sided RP is almost inevitable... it all comes down to good vs evil, us vs them, etc. etc.

You can have three "sides", but invariably two sides are in conflict, and the third either stays out or picks a side- but its still a 2 sided conflict regardless.

Sure, I have no doubt the players can envision a three-sided battle actually working, but that doesn't mean its easy to code.

Besides, just look at our in-game world map now- Pro-City, Anti-City is one of the already defined layouts... :)

[ReefSmoker]

The game I'm playing just now goes for 3 sides, good (gods are Enid Goddess of Peace, Romance, Nature, and all things good, and Mabon, god of Magic and Mysticism), balance (gods are Despothes, King of all six Realm Gods, and Finvarra, deity of War and Violence), and finally evil (gods are Duach, the God of Evil and Darkness, and Elphame, the Goddess of Death and keeper of the Dark Mists).

The game in question is very good at allowing a flow of storyline that accomodates all three sides, and at the same time you effectively have factions underneath each of the three main sides with those who choose a specific god to follow.

The fact that the storyline in this game I'm on about has a huge invasion coming up and all three sides have united to protect the lands is beside the point, what I'm trying to say is that I think the idea of 3 main sides is much better than just a clear cut 'good vs evil' scenario.

I think the main problem with so many factions in Neocron is that the sides are not necessarily balanced out, and the 'good vs bad' thing all comes down to players' personal opinions of which factions are good and which are evil. I honestly believe that the storyline in Neocron needs a lot of improvement in how it is presented so that roleplay of the factions can be enhanced and that the players know who's who, what's what.

If any of the GMs or devs involved with the storyline are interested in finding out more about this game and how the storyline is presented, feel free to contact me. You could also speak to Marx about it too since he also plays the same game, along with others who have tried it out upon my suggestion. We all agree that the storyline is far greater in this game in question than it is in any other MMORPG we've played, part of the reason for that is that it's a very old game - so the storyline presentation has been refined to a point where it is very involving and allows the players to feel like they are truly part of what is going on. Neocron could benefit significantly from the lessons this game has to teach :)

Take care,

Reefie

[jernau]

I think Reefie is right and that it's been coming for a while if you look at the signs - the new worldmap and the nerking about with FA are plenty of evidence IMO.

I hate the idea myself though.

I like having a complex political structure where people have to consider their actions and where fights have consequences beyond the immediate. If Neocron becomes just another "red vs blue" slug-a-thon it will have lost another of the unique selling points that have kept it alive so long.

If people want dumbed-down unthinking red=dead nonsense there are hundreds of options. Why dumb Neocron down to that level??:( :( :(

[Superbron]

I like having a complex political structure where people have to consider their actions and where fights have consequences beyond the immediate. If Neocron becomes just another "red vs blue" slug-a-thon it will have lost another of the unique selling points that have kept it alive so long.
I totally agree with this point of view. Let's keep this unique and complex political structure instead of 'team deathmatch'. However something needs to be done in terms of RPG! Make factions worth staying with. Now I sometimes think I would rather be factionless then be a member of faction X.

[Zanathos]

Honestly, I think their ARE too many factions.

I mean, come on....... Theres a limited amount of players as it is.....

City Administraction - Pro-City
Diamond Real Estate - Pro-City
NEXT - Pro-City
Tangent Technologies - Pro-City
BioTech - Pro-City
ProtoPharm - Pro-City
Black Dragon - Neutral
Tsunami Sindicate - Neutral
Crahn Sect - Neutral
Twilight Guardian - Anti-City
Fallen Angels - Neutral
City Mercs - Neutral

Lets not forget

Anarcy Breed - Neutral
Trader Union - Pro-City?

I like MumblyFishe's idea.

Pro-City
City Administration
Tangent Technologies
BioTech
ProtoPharm
NEXT

Anti-City
Twilight Guardian
Dome of York
Crahn Sect (Id actually prefer it if they were kicked out of the City :p)

Criminals
Tsunami Sindicate
Black Dragon
Anarcy Breed

Neutral
Fallen Angels
City Mercs
Trader Union
Diamond Real estate

How the alliances go

Pro-City (Experienced people)
Anti-City - Enemies (Makes sence)
Neutral - Neutral (There the neutrals :p)
Criminals - Enemies (What city wants Criminals as allies or even tolerate their precense?)
Pro-City - Allied (Makes sence)

Anti-City (Really Experienced people)
Neutrals - Neutral (Makes sence)
Criminals - Neutral (Makes sence doesnt it? Anti-City doesnt like Pro-City, Pro-City dont like Criminals)
Pro-City - Enemies (Duh)
Anti-City - Allied (Of course)

Criminals (Experienced people
Pro-City - Enemies (I dont think the criminals are very fond of the Pro-City :))
Anti-City - Neutral (Makes sence doesnt it? Anti-City doesnt like Pro-City, Pro-City dont like Criminals)
Neutrals - Enemies (I dont think the neutrals would really like them)
Criminals - Allied (Makes sence)

Neutral (Newbies, although, I woulnt really consider City-Mercs to be newbie faction. same for Fallen Angels)
Pro-City - Neutral (Duh)
Anti-City - Neutral (Duh)
Criminals - Enemies (I dont think neutrals want criminals messing around with their operations)
Neutrals - Neutral (Duh)

Its hard to do something like this though, what with the history of the factions and all.

[Strych9]

Originally posted by ReefSmoker
The game in question is very good at allowing a flow of storyline that accomodates all three sides, and at the same time you effectively have factions underneath each of the three main sides with those who choose a specific god to follow.

The fact that the storyline in this game I'm on about has a huge invasion coming up and all three sides have united to protect the lands is beside the point, what I'm trying to say is that I think the idea of 3 main sides is much better than just a clear cut 'good vs evil' scenario.So all three unite to protect the lands... isnt that once again just two sides... the defenders of the land, and the attackers? :)

(Cant really comment, as of course I known nothing about the game... ;) )

If you look at a lot of the people that have issues with the factions, esp in that other thread about PP not having enough enemies... it really looks like people really DO want it black and white.

Its always gonna be two sides:

1. The people I kill
2. The people I dont kill

Sure you can break it down much further, but to the hardcore PvPers out there, that is all that will matter.

I personally am fond of any system that allows for player-driven RP.

[ReefSmoker]

Originally posted by Strych9
So all three unite to protect the lands... isnt that once again just two sides... the defenders of the land, and the attackers? :)

Well ... yeah ! I did say it was beside the point, but you're right, once again it is down to two sides - but it makes a change for that game because we're used to having 3 sides, (or 6 if you count the gods and their followers individually), so it's an interesting change there :)

With player-driven RP there needs to be clear guides as to what is going on, with the current faction system in Neocron no-one really knows exactly what's happening except for the PKers themselves - they see red and they shoot, it's rather simple for them. For those of us who try and RP it's a lot less clear-cut because things aren't so black and white. A roleplayer has to take onboard the scenario laid out by a storyline, and unfortunately that is where Neocron is let down. The storyline gives us info via the Neocronicle which tells us a bit of what is going on, but that's a weekly publication with very little happening in-between. Therefore the roleplayers get into the swing of things for one or two days, and afterwards just go hunting or get involved in a few OP battles for the rest of the week. It often turns into the same-old same-old...

Player-driven RP is a deceptive description - mainly because the majority of roleplayers are following a guide of sorts. Currently our only guide is the Neocronicle (we can't really include NEMA since it is a monthly compilation of the Neocronicles). We can make our own roleplay, but then bickering ensues because other players might think we're out of order by creating our own fun and games. That's what it really comes down to - with constant storyline we get involved and have fun, with the sparse storyline we have it ends up coming down to bickering over what's going on since no-one is 100% certain, and ultimately that is when the game just becomes a case of killing enemy faction runners because there's not many other ways of expressing roleplay based upon the in-game mechanics :(

It's all an interesting debate. I for one am very curious about the arrival of hard facts for DoY and what it will supposedly mean for roleplay since the only hard facts I've seen are the plans to make the faction alliances much more distinct than they are at present. We'll all be keeping our eyes peeled for that announcement from MJS. I hope it lives up to the hype he's tried to generate thus far. He's gone underground again though - as CEO he did just enough to get some of the playerbase hyped up (and the rest up in arms over what he did or did not say), he would have been wiser to simply say 'Either late December or January we will make an announcement about DoY and what it means for all of you, enjoy playing until then'.

Well I'm rambling now...

Take care !

Reefie

[Carinth]

My problem is that as it is now, you *can't* divide the factions in two. Within each side there are factions hostile to each other, and there are factions on either side allied together. If they modify faction relations enough to make them fit, then none of the factions will be the same. I can't imagine any scenario that would have Tsunami actualy be anti city. With Black Dragons and Crahns in that group, we would want nothing to do with them. Could we make peace with them? Only if our territory doesn't overlap, and currently we're all vying for pepper park.

Why must we have two sides?! I have been in a 3way war before, and it's chaotic but fun! If I'm still around for DOY, you can be sure I will be playing Tsunami as it should be, not however they bastardize it. Pepper Park is and will always be my Home!

[Zanathos]

You cant ignore the history of the factions either.

But with the recent Neocronicle, it seems like all pro city will become united.