View Full Version : A thought about burst weapons...
Perhaps KK should consider changing burst weapons so that if the first burst hits the target, then the others also hit.
Let me explain. Let's compare the TL 115 Disruptor with a TL 98 RoG. You would think that a rifle that is 17 tech levels higher would be superior. However, the Disruptor's higher damage is divided into 4 bursts (same with the First Love). Add to that the close-range bonus for the RoG and you have a TL 98 rifle that is superior to a TL 115 rifle. It seems to me that if you lock aim on a target and fire the first burst into him, then the other 3 should also count as a hit.
Also, what is the reasoning behind the close-range damage bonus for the RoG? Unless all weapons have special bonuses of some sort, I don't know why this class of weapons does.
Ray
fusion rifles have the same bounus... most dmg at max distance ... too bad they suck :(
[TgR]KILLER
08-12-03, 12:45
i don't mind the rog doing more dmg up close. i adjusted my PE's setup when alot of PE's started using that bitch.. energy used to hurt me bad hehe was build for PE pvping and thats Pain Easers normaly..
but yea.. if i fire a burst on something i would like my 3 bullets hitting a target to.. even standing still sometimes testing dmg or something i still miss 1 sometimes.. its "unreal" imo.. when your 1 meter away from somebody and fire a burst onto his head u aint gonna miss 1 bullet out of a burst..
Mumblyfish
08-12-03, 12:46
Rayguns have different bonuses because... you know, it's nice to have weapons that are different to each other, in terms of physics and how the gameplay changes when you pull it out.
The Disruptor shines in medium-range combat. The Ray of God gets a poor damage bonus, and at medium-range most Disruptor shots land at 100% accuracy anyway. The Ray of God is the rare CLOSE RANGE rifle. So in close range it should be the rifle of choice.
Oh, and your suggestion would make CS tanks unbeatable.
Originally posted by [TgR]KILLER
i don't mind the rog doing more dmg up close. i adjusted my PE's setup when alot of PE's started using that bitch.. energy used to hurt me bad hehe was build for PE pvping and thats Pain Easers normaly..
but yea.. if i fire a burst on something i would like my 3 bullets hitting a target to.. even standing still sometimes testing dmg or something i still miss 1 sometimes.. its "unreal" imo.. when your 1 meter away from somebody and fire a burst onto his head u aint gonna miss 1 bullet out of a burst.. ´
Have you fired a burst from an assault rifle in RL? And more
importantly in a stressed combat situation? I only did it in training
but even under perfect scenarios shots go astray. Theres recoil
on those thingies you know. I think its perfectly viable that burst
weapons have accuracy problems, honestly they should be more
inaccurate than they are now, usually when you fire like that the
point is to get one at least one hit. However the weapons should
of course be compensated for that so they are as viable as other
weapons (still taking TL in account of course).
[TgR]KILLER
08-12-03, 13:06
i know that they got recoil and all rade.. but esp talking about fireing a gun @ 1 meter range.. as it is now i can put my PE to somebodys head and still miss a shot.. were i can hit every bullet on range.. game wise thats how it ment to be..
rifles > long range
pistols > short range
but if u think about it.. there's something wrong..
Compare the Disruptor RoF with the RoG RoF and you'll see what rifle is superior.
Anybody who says RoG is superior to Disrupter obviously hasn't specialised in RC, either that or has a really crap FREQ% and DMG% on their gun.
Mumblyfish
08-12-03, 13:18
MY H-SCROLL! IT BURNS!
Dribble Joy
08-12-03, 13:21
With the recticle locked on the target, burst weapons should hit thier shots, but without your pointer over the target over the whole burst, no.
Making burst weapons hit 100% of shots, would over power them, especially the CS, and even the libby, curently quite a balanced weapon.
Actually, It would rule if burst weapons were changed to be like they are in real life. It's silly that you can stand in front of someone with a burst weapon and if the reticle isn't closed enough all the bullets you spray will magically avoid the target that almost fills your whole screen.
Burst weapons should just have a rough aiming reticle that wouldn't close much but you could fire them much faster and the bullets would hit everything in their path, including friends and foes. It could just create a burst pattern according to where you are aiming and how much recoil the weapon has etc.
Would be great to be able to use burst weapons for suppressive fire in op battles, and for fighting in very close quarters. That's what burst weapons are for, anyway. Pain easer is just stupid, it has the same chance of hitting all the bullets of a burst from almost maximum distance than from close range. When firing a burst, the farther you are from the target, the more it will spread of course, so this makes no sense. In other words, it's too accurate at long range, and too inaccurate at close range (like other burst weapons, heck, even if your reticle is as big as it gets, most of the bullets should hit even by chance!)
Also, assault rifles should have a changeable mode (make it work like flashlight etc. weapon mods), so you could switch between single shot for sniping or burst mode for close combat. Of course damage should be adjusted and all that blah so it's not under- or overpowered ingame.
One more thing that irks me is the crazy stamina drain when firing the PE. Modern assault rifles aren't that tiring to fire, or well,
I could suppose if you tried to control all the recoil when firing bursts it would be very hard, but who in their right mind would try to aim perfectly in such situations, except under current game mechanics, because now all your shots magically miss even at close range if the reticle isn't almost fully closed...
(Oh and yes, I've fired assault rifle in RL in the army, there was a reason though why we almost always used single shots except in special situations, ambushes, suppressive fire, close-range indoor fighting etc. But using bursts all the time is a true waste of ammo)
I was shooting someone last night, and, and, i had full lock on, and and, all 3 bullets from my pain easer missed :lol: :lol:
Anyway, ROG, even at distance, out damages a pain easer, its pretty funny (more exp too because a) its tech and b) it does more damage :p)
@wrathwind: Have you actually shot full-auto in RL? At say 10-20
meters range you're lucky if one of your 30 shots hit if youre
spraying. And thats without you or the target moving. (doesnt
apply to mounted machine guns obviously, im talking about
assaultrifles)
Originally posted by [TgR]KILLER
i know that they got recoil and all rade.. but esp talking about fireing a gun @ 1 meter range.. as it is now i can put my PE to somebodys head and still miss a shot.. were i can hit every bullet on range.. game wise thats how it ment to be..
rifles > long range
pistols > short range
but if u think about it.. there's something wrong..
what rade said still applies to even 1 meter range, no gun will ever be 100% accurate and 100% reliable even at point blank range, recoil on semi automatic (burst fire) and automatic weapons in RL is something that can effect aim severely so why should a pain easer not have these problems??
Rade, not full auto of course, that's only what people do in movies I'd say.
Short bursts yes, 3 shots like the assault rifles in NC fire now, although the bursts are kinda slow imo (I mean the spacing between the shots in a burst, though it could be my crappy FPS, I want my Geforce4 back).
And yeah, I should've clarified that mostly I'd like to see the guns in Reveler and 4x4 chaincraft to be really viable in OP battles, it would be really cool to have tanks gun them and mow down the enemy ranks if they are foolish enough to give a head-on charge than just try to pick up individual enemies like it's now.
I still think that assault rifles should have two firing modes, single shot for sniping (for which PE is mostly used in PvM at least), and the burst mode for close combat, pepper fights etc. Even then, like you said, it might be smarter to use the single shot option in duels since it's lucky if more than one shot hits the single target you're aiming at. But in a crowded battle situation, if there's mostly enemies in sight, you could try to fire a burst and hope that more than one of them gets hit.
Ozambabbaz
08-12-03, 17:45
oi, i gots brag rights... tried full-auto with a 48-shot belt on this baby (http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg33-e.htm) standing up, leaning forward...50 metres, not 1 shot landed where it was intended ;)
Well, Ive done the same with this baby:
http://w1.708.telia.com/~u70804208/fbu8.jpg
Not to mention this one, its only semi-automatic but god damn...
http://w1.708.telia.com/~u70804208/ag90-10.jpg
http://w1.708.telia.com/~u70804208/ag90-14.jpg
http://w1.708.telia.com/~u70804208/ag90ammo.jpg
(Not me in any of those pictures)
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
MY H-SCROLL! IT BURNS!
LMAO!!
that is a very annoying sig 0_o
you point out that todays rifles do "move" when fired and shots go astray, but lets not forget, Neocron is 800 years on......
weapons should lock on with targetting systems, internal computers and auto lock firing sequences, not go "wow, we've moved 800 years and bullets still jam up barrles".... which is utter bullshit.
are you saying technology won't improve beyond what we already have in assault rifle terms? ........
Mumblyfish
08-12-03, 19:24
You forgot that there was a huge nuclear explosion, right? I think it killed a lot of people. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I don't know a lot about bombs.
It took mankind hundreds of years to get back to where they were before, in some cases Neocron technology is LESS advanced than current technology. That's what happens when the big boys won't let you have the Ceres Discs.
Interesting discussion on real life weaponry, but I honestly don't know why people insist on comparing game items to the real world. Neocron is not a simulation; that is another game genre. The game needs to be designed and balanced for maximum fun and fair play and not for realism.
I wouldn't mind that burst weapons missed some of their shots if all weapons were the same. However, when you have a rifle like the RoG that unloads all its damage in one shot (not to mention the close-range damage bonus) while the First Love and Disruptor use bursts, you force everyone to use the RoG to duel. The point is that people that get good stats on the higher TL weapons have to make sacrifices to do so and yet there is no reward. The result is a lack of variety.
A PE can use and cap a RoG. He can use better armor than a spy, has better CON (resists), and can shelter himself. How can a spy duel a PE when both are using the same weapon and the PE has all these advantages? You would think that the advantage a spy has is his access to the higher TL rifles which supposedly out-damage the lower TL rifles. However, the fact that they are burst rifles and therefore often miss make them inferior despite their TL.
Shadow Dancer
08-12-03, 21:56
How about giving burst fire weapons a mode where it just shoots one shot, but at some other type of penalty.......
I don't know...........
BlackPrince
08-12-03, 22:07
Ya know Rade, the russians have this new gun called the AL-4 or something, ask Poe.
Anyways, fires two shots for every squeeze of the trigger. Instead of the recoil causing you to miss your target (as you claim is normal for burst weapons), it actually increases the chance of hitting the target with both shots by 35%.
I've fired an M14(.308win) on a 3 burst, didn't really miss, certainly not like some of the guns here do. ARs(.223rem) are even easier to control in 3 shot bursts (same ammoas the Assault Rifles in Neo). I would really doubt that a burst weapon that uses energy in anyway whatsoever generates recoil, yet on a disruptor or plasma rifle you can miss 3/4 shots. Its just plain stupid.
The reason that I brought up RL weaponry is that someone said
something like "its just stupid that any shots are missing when
Im shooting someone at point blank with a automatic weapon" or
somesuch. But no, it isnt stupid, especially since the neocron
combat is done while running around. And yes, some energy
weapons should generate recoil etc. And yes, standing still, or
even better, lying down, and shooting a 3-shot burst or a manual
double-shot (dont know the english term, theres a swedish term
for it tho "jaktskott") from a modern AR you will generally hit all
shots.
Plasma in neocron seems to be a little more unruly than laser and
cause quite some recoil however. *shrug* Then again, what is
energy? Lasers produce heat, fire protection should help, and
what is xray? Exactly what is energy in neocron really? And how
do you make a radioactive laser, or a non-radioactive plasma, or
how do you make a bullet with so strong radioactive load that
the victim actually takes damage from the radioation? Neocron
weapons are most of the time less realistic than the cold-lasers
of the 80ies...
It comes down to balance, and no, burst weapons doesnt need
to hit all shots, most of them are pretty balanced as is. RoG for
example is a dedicated close combat weapon where disruptor is
useful for all ranges, and with high RoF it does some amazing
damage up close as well.
BlackPrince
09-12-03, 00:29
If it was an energy based weapon like a mass driver or hyper velocity gun, sure recoil could be expected.
But not with the discharge of plasma, recoil on modern weapons is caused by the discharge of a huge amount of power being funneled through a very tiny space. Anything that uses a solid projectile then will generate recoil, using energy though...well there'd really be no energy (the explosion) to be forced through a barrel.
I'd be much happier if increased aiming percentage decreased the number of 'wild' shots as well as recticle closing speed. Sucks when you have 267% aiming, a fully closed recticle and commonly 8/24 shots go flying off randomly. This percentage applies to the disruptor... but even the sniper rifles have a 25% 'wild shot' chance with capped aiming... what's up with that? :confused:
Edit: In case I wasn't clear... what's the point of having an aiming stat that can go beyond 100% and then add in a purely statistical number of misses... but only on certain weapons?
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of aiming in the first place?
@ Rade: the gun you are talking about is KSP90 wich is suckage imo =P
I always had a blast cleaning those puppies... but however
if you compare with an AK5 instead, wich is (for the non-swedish people)
the official rifle for the swedish armed forces
just for kicks we tried to do a full burst on 80m range, i aimed for
the legs on the guy, got 1 shot in the legs, another just below
the torso and a third one in the head, the rest (27 shots) missed
but if you do stand @ point blank range and empty a clip you are
bound to hit more then 3 shots... otherwise u suck :lol:
edit: also forgot :) IMO the burst should not hit all 3 shot (PE for example)
but however maybe should be tweaked a bit...
//Radium
Its the ksp58, not the ksp90. Its the mother of machine guns
mmmkay :D
again for non-swedes: the skp90 is 5.56, the ksp58 is 7.62. The
ksp58 is man version :D
On the subject of Energy causing recoil.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Energy has mass. Mass being moved forward should move the gun back.
The only question is how much energy there really is in a plasma blast. Is it enough to cause the kind of recoil it does?
KRIMINAL99
09-12-03, 05:49
every consecutive shot has - 15% to hit (..or was it 10) and +28 or 20% dam (of the whole burst)
If it wasn't for the acc penalty they probably would all hit, but bursts are made to be different just to make the game more interesting.
Using a burst weapon is better for people who aim well, they will do more dam. If you aim for shit then hardly any of the shots will hit.
But don't worry you can still be uber just roll an apu and don't tell anyone thats why you did it.
BlackPrince
09-12-03, 06:27
Once again yall are talkin full auto, there is no such weapon in this game. They all fire in bursts.
Tell me you had 1/4 of your shots miss in 3-4 shot bursts and I'll say you probably didn't need to be handling that weapon.
5.56 recoils doesn't hit much worse than a .22
7.62 is more of a firm push from a child.
When you're throwing out 3 1/2" magnum turkey loads with every squeeze of the trigger, then come talk to me about recoil and shots missed.
SigmaDraconis
09-12-03, 07:40
Id be in heaven if my libby landed everyshot.......oh you poor poor PPU's
BP we are just gibbering away about guns for fun, you should
know how that works :P Anyway, I already said that shooting
bursts in perfect conditions are pretty accurate. But shooting
while running around trying to hit someone who is running
around... eh, no. Also the ARs of neocron hit pretty well when you
do have perfect conditions, its the ingram style SMGs that miss
wildly and well, they definately should.
Originally posted by Rade
Its the ksp58, not the ksp90. Its the mother of machine guns
mmmkay :D
true true, it's ksp58... and again for the non swedes, this is the
best machine gun in the world... least amount of parts, and it can
hold out on anything :)
Originally posted by Rade
again for non-swedes: the skp90 is 5.56, the ksp58 is 7.62. The
ksp58 is man version :D
man version, pffft... the ksp90 is made with 5.56 instead because
it is ment to be a 1 man weapon, while ksp58 (wich is cooler btw,
not debating that) is a 2 man weapon, 1 guy shoots while the other
guy loads...
also the ksp58 is very heavy and you can basicly (unless you are
the hulk) only fire rambo-style... but if you want to aim with it
while standing our crouching you will not hit jack-shit because of
the recoil, so again my point is, if i was going to war and got to
choose from ksp90 or ksp58, the ksp90 would be my choice :)
//Radium
If I were going to war Id pick a ak-5 over a ksp-90 and a ksp-90
over a ksp-58, no hestitation, but its still teh man gun..
Originally posted by Rade
If I were going to war Id pick a ak-5 over a ksp-90 and a ksp-90
over a ksp-58, no hestitation, but its still teh man gun..
ak5 > all :D
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