View Full Version : Re: Buying NC:BDOY when it come out
I have a serious question here actually. Ok, we were promised it would be a free expansion, now it looks like it's going to be a commercial re-launch of the entire game. Now the question is:
MJS says that the publisher doesn't get much money subscription fees so the publisher wants the current players to ALSO pay for the expansion. Now considering that with proper marketing the game's boxes should STILL be sold to all the new customers and as such the publisher will get their money's worth from the new players. So shouldn't the "expansion" be free to current players as not only a sign of good faith but also as a test for the publisher? After all, if publisher sucks again, and the game doesn't sell, then they don't make money. I think that's a lot more fair than making US the current customers pay a publisher that didn't do ANYTHING for us...
Also it should be free to current customers as a sign of good faith. After all, we stuck with you and supported you for a year now! We've been paying to essentially beta test the product that will be relaunching soon. Sure it didn't officially start out like that, but let's be honest, this is the way things look now especially due to MJS's recent comments.
Finally, the current customer base is incredibly low, so unless the publisher is not planning on doing much work to get new people to buy the box, they're not getting much money from us anyway (What do we have now? Like maybe 2k players? Sure there are 10k accounts, but most of those 2k players have more than 1 account and as MJS said already, if you have multiple accounts, you'd only need to buy 1 box). So the publisher pushing for the current players to pay for the "expansion" just reeks to me of the fact that they just want money and don't care about much else which automatically raises a red flag in my head.
Any thoughts?
Ideas?
Comments?
Official Statements?
depends... its its $40 or over ill be pissed, but if with my discount its it under $30 i wont care.... Imean thats like the cost of 4 meals or a move and dinner, not a big deal. Id prefer they got money to make the game better (as long as they do it) then release a free, big patch that isnt so great.
Originally posted by VetteroX
depends... its its $40 or over ill be pissed, but if with my discount its it under $30 i wont care.... Imean thats like the cost of 4 meals or a move and dinner, not a big deal. Id prefer they got money to make the game better (as long as they do it) then release a free, big patch that isnt so great.
But the ones making the game better are KK. (Or the ones who are supposed to anyway). The ones who get your money when you buy the box are the publisher who have nothing to do with the game or the content. (Well, they'd get a major portion of the money from the box sales anyway).
a new pub is going to want to make money
not give out stuff free to a game its just took on
i think they should charge expansion prices
i.e £20 uk money
thats fair enough as its what most mmorpg companies charge
Originally posted by evs
a new pub is going to want to make money
not give out stuff free to a game its just took on
i think they should charge expansion prices
i.e £20 uk money
thats fair enough as its what most mmorpg companies charge
Well, there are 2 flaws in what you just said...
1) The pub analogy is flawed. The pub does not "inherit" cutomers, and most pubs actually will do a whole lot of stuff for free just to get people to come, but as I said, invalid analogy because a pub doesn't have 2 separate methods of charging. A better example would be a cell-phone company. The company I bought the cell phone from has been acquired by another company a bit over a year ago. They did change a few things, but they did NOT force me to buy a new phone because of their "upgraded service" or "better coverage". Nor did they raise the monthly fees. Why? It's just smart business.
2) Other mmorpg companies charge for expansions, not total scrap and relaunch of the product. IE: You can still play AO without "Shadowlands", you can still play EQ without "Shadows of Luclin" and so on... Wereas it looks like you will HAVE to switch over to NC:BDOY because the current Neocron will no longer be supported. (Or at least that's the feeling I got from reading MJS's posts. An official clarification on this issue would help.)
didnt read all of this but.. doy might cost when it comes out?
if it looks woirth it, I'll buy it, if it dont, I wont. Simple
well shit. they cant even get it out on time, and they want to charge for it =/
I think the fact that current players are getting a discount is more than enough. I'd imagine KK have already done the negotiation with the publisher already and this was the best deal they could get, i.e. we all pay a little for BDoY or it gets no publisher.
well if KK put doy out for free. maybe more people would come back
It's not KK's choice. Ultimately it's down to the publisher, and I guess they couldn't get a publisher and still release DoY for free. So instead they're marketting it as a new game, and people with existing active accounts get a special discount. Considering how much I've saved by not buying many new games in the last year I think that's perfectly acceptable. :)
yea, i agree with that but people will beable to play on the same servers if they dont have doy right? how will that work out?
FFS
It's really simple :
Don't want to pay : FECK OFF then
Can't afford it : FECK OFF then
Don't think it's worth it : FECK OFF then
Feel robbed/lied to/etc : FECK OFF then
You people sicken me, get a goddam life and cut this repetative, pointless bitch-at-everything nonsense.
WELL they did say it was a free expansion at first. kk is good at lieeeeeeeeees
Originally posted by element[]
WELL they did say it was a free expansion at first. kk is good at lieeeeeeeeees
See point 4 above
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - software theft ]
Thats why teenager shouldnt play this game...
Boohooo I am 16 and I wont get DoY for free and my dad refuse to buy it for me :confused: :confused: :confused:
Get real.. Its nearly 2 years now or what? And you are looking at a almost new game of NC and you still refuse to pay for it :rolleyes:
Go and d/l w----z instead I dont care but it seems to me you cant afford a little fee of 20$ - 35$ :angel: Hey they could raise the month fee instead wouldnt that be great ^^ duh...
If it was launched as an "Expansion of Neocron"... Then it would flounder.
You know why? Because most people don't know what the fuck Neocron is, and instead of Buying the expansion and looking around for an actual copy of Neocron (which would be damned near impossible to find for a time), they would just look at what's next to it instead.
A commercial relaunch of Neocron provides a fresh start in terms of advertising and marketing... Which is a necessity, especially for a MMO.
So the publisher pushing for the current players to pay for the "expansion" just reeks to me of the fact that they just want money and don't care about much else which automatically raises a red flag in my head
Hurrrrr. It's a company. They want us to pay for the services which they're providing, which is the advertising and shipment of Neocron.
And um - This is the first MMO I've played which even put forth the idea of a free expansion for players... Even then I knew it wasn't feasable if they were going to get a new publisher. It completely defeats the need for a publisher to do it's job... Does it not?
Wereas it looks like you will HAVE to switch over to NC:BDOY because the current Neocron will no longer be supported
Um, I sincerely doubt that would be the issue. Unless we all had a way to get a copy of it on the release date, which would be impossible.
"HEY GUYZ, U CAN'T PLAY ANYMOR UNT1L U GET XPANZION11!!! LOLZ."
:rolleyes:
think they should charge expansion prices
Based on what I've read from MJS posts about the 'discount' on the expansion for players and what I've seen of his character, I wouldn't doubt that he'd still provide us with a 'free' expansion. I could easily imagine him only charging the fee the publisher requires...
But until we actually get to the date where we get an official announcement, it's all speculation.
Originally posted by t0tt3
Thats why teenager shouldnt play this game...
Boohooo I am 16 and I wont get DoY for free and my dad refuse to buy it for me :confused: :confused: :confused:
Get real.. Its nearly 2 years now or what? And you are looking at a almost new game of NC and you still refuse to pay for it :rolleyes:
Go and d/l w----z instead I dont care but it seems to me you cant afford a little fee of 20$ - 35$ :angel: Hey they could raise the month fee instead wouldnt that be great ^^ duh...
if its only around 20 i have no problem. but im not wasting more than that for a new buggy addon
1) The pub analogy is flawed. The pub does not "inherit" cutomers, and most pubs actually will do a whole lot of stuff for free just to get people to come, but as I said, invalid analogy because a pub doesn't have 2 separate methods of charging. A better example would be a cell-phone company. The company I bought the cell phone from has been acquired by another company a bit over a year ago. They did change a few things, but they did NOT force me to buy a new phone because of their "upgraded service" or "better coverage". Nor did they raise the monthly fees. Why? It's just smart business.
who is to say you have to buy nc to keep playing?
chances are all the xtra content you wont have access to unless you pay for it.
and yes the publisher DOES inherit customers.
as soon as it takes on nc is inherits all the nc customer base.
not sure wtf you mean by it doesnt.
customers as well as staff are viewed as commodity - and they will be part of any deal struck.
why doesnt a publisher have 2 methods of charging?
pay via download
pay via boxset
etc
re mobile phone stuff - no they didnt charge you extra for the same service you are recieving. but they didnt give you new content either - and if they did it was part of the takeover deal.
end of the day they did recieve the user base from the prev owner (ala totally destroying your original point :rolleyes:) so thats a big coup no matter what.
noone does anything for free - especially if it costs them money.
god knows what th 'smart business' you talk of is.
hell remind me never to put you in charge of a company
'hey guys weve spent months on this product, its totally changing our original. - i know lets give it away free and charge nothing!'
if they could have left nc as is and just reaped the cash and not had any overhead - of course they would.
adding stuff to nc and charging us for it is a sound strategy.
of course we'll pay.
2) Other mmorpg companies charge for expansions, not total scrap and relaunch of the product. IE: You can still play AO without "Shadowlands", you can still play EQ without "Shadows of Luclin" and so on... Wereas it looks like you will HAVE to switch over to NC:BDOY because the current Neocron will no longer be supported. (Or at least that's the feeling I got from reading MJS's posts. An official clarification on this issue would help.)
we dont know this for definite.
it's hearsay unless we get an official line.
i dont have time to be bothered with vapour.
i imagine it will be backwards compat - its essentially the same stuff.
but if it is a total revamp - and you will have to pay to play.
ah well - such is life.
we've had a couple of years out of this game and still playing it.
id rather have no upgrade than and upg i have to shell out a bit for.
sorry i r also v drunk
Originally posted by Marx
Hurrrrr. It's a company. They want us to pay for the services which they're providing, which is the advertising and shipment of Neocron.
Well in all honesty it wants us to pay for services it does not provide. The publisher's task is to publish a product, to market the product and to advertize the product. We already OWN the product, therefore they are not doing any work for us. Therefore why should we pay the publisher? I mean if the "special fee" is like $5-10 the entirety of which goes to KK to fund more employees to debug and add more content, then sure, I'd be the first to line up to buy it. But I don't see why I need to pay the publisher for services no rendered. That's the job of the n00bs who do not yet know this game exists and will therefore be made aware of the game by the publisher. So they are the ones who should pay the full price and pay the publisher for their efforts, not us however. I'll refer you a bit up to my cell phone example which is absolutely true.
Originally posted by Marx
And um - This is the first MMO I've played which even put forth the idea of a free expansion for players... Even then I knew it wasn't feasable if they were going to get a new publisher. It completely defeats the need for a publisher to do it's job... Does it not?
No it isn't. Not in the least! Neocron is dieing, unless we get more new people to sign up to fill the ranks of people who have moved on, it will die any time now. The job of the publisher is to get those new people to come in. Not to make us pay money. It's like, try applying for a marketing job at a company and when the time comes to do your job just get a list of the company's clients and work with only them. Are you really a marketer then? The job of a marketer is to find people who don't know about the product and make them want the product and buy the product even if they don't need or want it. (I worked telemarketing for a bit. It's horrible business, but the premise is the same as with businesses considering half our clients were rather large service providers in my country).
Originally posted by Marx
Um, I sincerely doubt that would be the issue. Unless we all had a way to get a copy of it on the release date, which would be impossible.
"HEY GUYZ, U CAN'T PLAY ANYMOR UNT1L U GET XPANZION11!!! LOLZ."
:rolleyes:
Well, the issue with this is that this question came up several times on different threads and MJS has avoided commenting on it. Now it could be that they are simply not sure about it, or it could be because yes, we will have to buy the "expansion" to continue playing the game.
Ive said it before and Ill say it now.
Why the fuck are so many people whining about DOY costing money? Just because at first they said it would be free? Tough shit, things change people. You want tons of new players and bug fixes and new gameplay in this expansion but you dont want to pay money for it? If you can pay ten dollars a month for this game I think you can scrape together 30 bucks. Stop whining so much about KKs business practices.
edit: further more
Well in all honesty it wants us to pay for services it does not provide. The publisher's task is to publish a product, to market the product and to advertize the product. We already OWN the product, therefore they are not doing any work for us. Therefore why should we pay the publisher? I mean if the "special fee" is like $5-10 the entirety of which goes to KK to fund more employees to debug and add more content, then sure, I'd be the first to line up to buy it. But I don't see why I need to pay the publisher for services no rendered. That's the job of the n00bs who do not yet know this game exists and will therefore be made aware of the game by the publisher. So they are the ones who should pay the full price and pay the publisher for their efforts, not us however. I'll refer you a bit up to my cell phone example which is absolutely true.
Are you fucking retarded? We arent getting penalized for a new publisher coming and getting more people. We are getting a discount FFS! Say NC and BDOY come together as a set and cost 50$ Since we already bought the game we get a discount so that we get BDOY for 30$ Joe Noob is still paying 20$ for neocron and we arent.
Why do you keep saying "We shouldent pay for services not offered" Their services are to get more people to come and play so that there will be more people on the servers and more fun. You dident flame CDV this bad when probably half of the money went to them and they did nothing. That money could have gone to KK for more coders.
Originally posted by Lareolan
Neocron is dieing, unless we get more new people to sign up to fill the ranks of people who have moved on, it will die any time now.Well I checked your forum account and you're not MJS, so why are you making statements about something you know nothing about? People have been prediciting Neocron's demise for a long time now and yet here we all still are.
N
Psycho Killa
07-12-03, 04:38
I thought i remembered reading somewhere already that you will have to have doy to play?
The point is the publisher has to make money there not in the business of giving shit away. Though the advertisment cost has nothing to do with you getting to play since you already own neocron they still have to pass the charges on to someone..... surely you want them to advertise? What good is playing a game with 200 people for the rest of your life.
Not to mention they still need to package and deliver the game to stores our your house so they need to cover these costs also. If they allow you to just download the game they still will have to have to pay to host the download and the other charges associated with it.
Wait and see what the discount is and how good doy is. Then if doy sucks ass and they charge 40$ for the expansion to current customers ill be on the same boat complaning like u and ill be canceling my account asap.
Nid: He has a point. Though the game has had a predicted death for a long time you cant deny that the server numbers are getting lower and lower. Its pretty rediculous i abandoned pluto because of it and am not exactly impressed with the 200 people that are normaly on saturn.
Well nidhogg the server population is going down slowly so people are going to think the game is dying a slow death.
There may be as many paying customers as there always are but they arent active and the lack of people on servers are putting people off playing because their friends and enemies arent playing and dont have much to play for.
DOY may of brought back a load of old players who had cancelled but still active accounts but after each day less and less of these people will come back especially with DOY having to be payed for even after various promises of it being free.
We already OWN the product, therefore they are not doing any work for us
Yes they are, by advertising the game, they provide more players for the enviroment which is *cough* important to MMO playability to say the least.
blah blah, neocron is dying, blah blah, Publishers job, blah blah
First off, no publisher would allow a company to provide free 'expansions' unless there was some hook between them and the company in question. Hence why I knew it was impossible for the game to be 'free' (refer up to my post in regards to the discount).
That said, a publisher does need money to provide for it's own employees and assets.
The new publisher has certain rights over the game, and as such they can charge for the new expansion/rerelease. They're the ones pushing it to old and new player alike... (to go against the rest of your argument, scroll to the end of the post... We don't know how well they're advertising seeing as they haven't started yet. As such, we cannot make decisions about the publisher.)
Well, the issue with this is that this question came up several times on different threads and MJS has avoided commenting on it
He hasn't talked about ALOT of stuff. You know why? He can't at the current due to NDA-style bullshit. Until the publisher has started doing its job can't give us the info we want. Just because he didn't say something which just might be covered by that aforementioned bullshit doesn't mean the world is going to fall apart.
Chill.
Patience.
All will be told later, which in my opinion would be a more appropriate time for threads like this.
@ all the people claiming that paying for "additional content" as meager as it is is feasible take a look at all the crap that SWG is getting for free. Well, not free, they are paying for it with monthly subscription fees, same us we did for over a year now! Anyway, sure SWG has an expansion in the works that will allow players to own spaceships and fly in space. And yes, this expansion they will have to pay for as it is an actual expansion, it adds a whole NEW dimension to the game. DoY is merely another city. And in SWG for instance they added vehicles/mounts/player cities and plenty of other stuff for free. So don't tell me other MMOs don't do anything for free. There are expansions and then there is maintenance. We are paying a monthly fee for:
- 24/7/365.25 access to the servers (Something with the bugs, outtages, crashes, rollbacks etc... we really aren't getting on some servers).
- Maintenance of the game which includes:
* Debugging - removal of bugs from the game (Something we hardly see).
* Addition of some content that should have been available. (That we hardly ever see).
* Story/content - something they are sorta doing via Live Runs, but that's pathetic as it only involves a few runners at a time and takes forever to set up/organize and most of the players have come and gone without ever being a part of one.
* Customer Service and support - Done by volunteers many of whom don't speak English and don't have the brains to do the job as was evidenced by a few customer service problems posted on this forum. (And there are ofcourse other examples of this).
So honestly, I find myself straining to shell out $10/mo with the level of service I'm getting for the money. About the only reason I'm still here is because I'm an addict and I keep holding out in the hope that they will come around and actually turn this game into something I may enjoy one day. But so far, I'm still justifying it to myself by saying (well, I haven't gone to see a movie last month, so I can affort to throw away this $10 for services hardly rendered).
And now I have to pay a publisher money for bringing this game to my attention? As I said, if it's $5-10 for the additional 3rd disc/download whatever they give US DOY as, then I'd have no problem with it since $5-10 goes to KK for the effort they put into DOY and the costs of printing CDs or bandwidth. However I cannot justify paying $30-40 out of which $25-35 goes to the publisher for doing squat. (They did not make me aware of this game, I was aware of it before. They didn't do anything for ME. Sure, the person buying the whole NC:BDOY bundle in a store because he saw the ad in magazine/TV/whatever should pay the publisher because that's something the publisher would then deserve to be payed for.)
So once again @ evs, I am not saying this expansion should be free for EVERYONE. I'm saying it should be free or VERY VERY VERY cheap for us, the current customers because the publsher has no right to take money from us because they did not do any work and where I come from, they don't pay you if you don't work. It's just how it works here. Don't know how it works elsewhere especially in Germany seeing KK and CDV as the only 2 German companies I know...
Psycho Killa
07-12-03, 05:25
From what ive heard player owned space ships and that whole expansion was promised to be in the game when it was being designed. Since they couldnt keep there promise of space ships they didnt include them in release. So instead of including them in release when it was suppose to happen they decided isntead to delayit til a later time and then call it an expansion and still charge for it.... even though it should have been there in the first place.... I very well may be wrong but i heard this mentioned right before swg was even released. Doesnt make kk look to bad afterall does it?
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Well I checked your forum account and you're not MJS, so why are you making statements about something you know nothing about? People have been prediciting Neocron's demise for a long time now and yet here we all still are.
N
Nid, if you don't have something to say, please don't say anything, it would look better. I don't know what it is with you today, but stop trolling on all the threads because that's what you've been doing all day.
No, I am not MJS, but you don't have to be a genious to realize that when server populations continue to rapidly drop, that something is going on... I remember seeing well over 500 people on Saturn way back in the day. Now it's hard to catch it when it passes the 300 mark. And off-peak Saturn has started dipping into the double digits. Pluto has not passed 200 players at peak for months on end now. And Uranus during off-peak is at an all time low of usually just around 40 players. So don't tell me this game is not dieing and is going "great" like MJS keeps saying. There is propaganda and then there is study by observation. Numbers don't lie.
And now, please do your job of monitoring the forums and moderating them. If you feel like trolling, at least log on to your non-mod forum account when you do so. Otherwise you're sending a VERY negative message as when you are wearing the mod tags you are an authority figure and that reflects badly on KK.
And now I have to pay a publisher money for bringing this game to my attention
No, you're paying the publisher so they can do their job and bring MORE people into this world so as it'll be a world instead of a counterstrike server.
Customer Service and support - Done by volunteers many of whom don't speak English and don't have the brains to do the job as was evidenced by a few customer service problems posted on this forum. (And there are ofcourse other examples of this).
The funny thing is... The good ones aren't posted in this forum.
:rolleyes:
I know that most issues I've forwarded have been dealt with in a manner I approved.
Addition of some content that should have been available
IT'S UP TO THE PLAYERS TO PLAY. ITS NOT THE JOB OF THE CREATOR TO FEED YOU LINES. They provide the guidelines, we're supposed to play the role.
Anyway, ISo honestly, I find myself straining to shell out $10/mo with the level of service I'm getting for the money
Its not the job of KK, the community, or it's publisher to tell you to continue playing the game.
If you don't want to, for fucks sake, DON'T.
If you don't like the way things are going DON'T TAKE PART.
Frankly, if you're this turned off by Neocron, I sincerely doubt that NC: DoY will change your perspective.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
From what ive heard player owned space ships and that whole expansion was promised to be in the game when it was being designed. Since they couldnt keep there promise of space ships they didnt include them in release. So instead of including them in release when it was suppose to happen they decided isntead to delayit til a later time and then call it an expansion and still charge for it.... even though it should have been there in the first place.... I very well may be wrong but i heard this mentioned right before swg was even released. Doesnt make kk look to bad afterall does it?
No. Vehicles and other such things were promised to be in the game at release time, so they are releasing them... Other things weren't promised to be there at release time and they are still releasing them.
Space expansion was always meant to be an expansion. It was never supposed to ship with the game simply because they wanted a bit of extra income infusion at a later date and because simply when the game came out it would take a while before players would be able to afford their own spaceship (Those aren't cheap hehe.)
On the other hand, KK is having problems even preventing FREs. Something I have never experienced in any MMO or any game I paid for until Neocron. (And I've played in a few MMO betas without FREs or crashes or serious show-stopping bugs). So no, that doesn't make KK look at all better. Go to SWG's website and take a look at their "in development" and "in testing" as well as patchnotes and you'll see the radical difference between KK and an actual company.
On the other hand, KK is having problems even preventing FREs
Since the last patch I haven't had a single one. Meanwhile, others are having assloads. There's some issue that they're exploring to tackle it once and for all.
And I've played in a few MMO betas without FREs or crashes or serious show-stopping bugs
And I've played a few retail MMO's which had worse crash-issues.
Go to SWG's website and take a look at their "in development" and "in testing" as well as patchnotes and you'll see the radical difference between KK and an actual company
SW:G is a closely collaborated effort between Lucasarts and Sony Online Entertainment. Take a gander at those two companies sites. Then check reakktor.com (http://www.reakktor.com).
HAR HAR, I WONDAR WHY DER IS DIFARANCE?
At this point Lar, you seem to just be acting bitter. Any person with common sense wouldn't be able to compare the two efforts.
Just thought I'd chime in again.
*shrug*
Originally posted by Marx
The funny thing is... The good ones aren't posted in this forum.
:rolleyes:
I know that most issues I've forwarded have been dealt with in a manner I approved.
Well, I haven't had a lot of problems I needed customer support for myself, but my personal experience in whatever issues I had has been very 50/50. I have had the promptly dealt with occasions. And I had the retarded replies that made no sense because the guy spoke no English and didn't understand what I was asking case. (Or the ever famous reply with a link case). And I had the waiting for 6 months and counting case.
Originally posted by Marx
IT'S UP TO THE PLAYERS TO PLAY. ITS NOT THE JOB OF THE CREATOR TO FEED YOU LINES. They provide the guidelines, we're supposed to play the role.
No, you're right. They aren't. And I for one only RP. Hence why I am so gimped and nerfed by KK with every new patch as everything they do is geared towards PvP. Now, I'm not saying PvP'ers can't RP, but not all RP'ers have to be gimped munchkin PvP'ers damnit! Look at the most simple way to RP... play a tradeskiller.. What do you get?
- You are despized when you break a rare, make an inferior (3- slotted weapon instead of the "uber l33t" 5-slotted one. Like you have an option).
- You take forever to level because your combat skills are gimped due to having a tradeskill.
- When you do achieve a good level of skill, you are nerfed as now anyone can become a "godly" tradeskiller in a matter of 24 hours with the recent shit patch that released all the "tradeskill goodies" (God I despize that patch with all my heart and soul as now it's so trivial for anyone to have a tradeskill it's not worth it playing a dedicated tradeskiller).
- Due to your inferiority you are forever treated as a second-rate citizen by other runners including your own clan-mates who view you as the "Construction bitch" or "Researcher whore" while they get to be the "Leutenants" and "Generals", get the high ranks and get to actually call all the shots within the game and clan.
So no, they don't need to give us lines, but the fact that there is very little place for RP. No in-game mechanics for RP to speak of. Basically makes it so the only RP you can do is chatroom RP which is rather lame. I'd rather go play D&D with friends at this point. And PvP also leaves a lot to be desired as games like Quake do it much better. So basically Neocron is a game in-between, but instead of having the best of both worlds, it only has the worst of both worlds.
Originally posted by Marx
Its not the job of KK, the community, or it's publisher to tell you to continue playing the game.
If you don't want to, for fucks sake, DON'T.
If you don't like the way things are going DON'T TAKE PART.
Frankly, if you're this turned off by Neocron, I sincerely doubt that NC: DoY will change your perspective.
Yes, hover as a paying customer it's also my right to:
A) Voice complaints wether justified or not (And in this case they are all very much justified).
B) To want to turn this into a product I would enjoy as the masterpiece is there behind this current game. I can still see the "David" hiding inside this statue stragely resembling a pile of feces. But to turn the "Pile of feces" into a "David" you need a good skulptor with a vision and if the skulptor doesn't see the vision yet, he need help/pointers from people to help him recognize that that crest over here is actually "David"s ear, and that over there is his nose. Just a few careful strokes with a chizel and for GOD's SAKE! Stay away from the sledgehammer!
At 1st it was just some new shit few new zones have you that was for free.
From what I have been reading it is alot more than just that for that I will play. So far I have played this game for over an year and have had more fun playing this game than any other game. So I have zero problem paying it.
Originally posted by Marx
At this point Lar, you seem to just be acting bitter. Any person with common sense wouldn't be able to compare the two efforts.
Just thought I'd chime in again.
*shrug*
Well, you hit the nail right on the head there. I am rather bitter. But why shouldn't I be? According to MJS they have had 3 coders working on Neocron NOT DOY, Neocron for over a year now. And they are just NOW getting around to fixing SOME of the problems that have plagued this game since it's release over a year ago. Sure size also matters here. But keep in mind that since SWG has a bigger team they are able to handle MORE content also. So MORE content = more bugs to fix means they are just as busy fixing bugs as KK is. It's just a matter of scale. Neocron has VERY little content, so there are very few bugs to speak of, and yet most of that little content we have has been bugged for over a year now with no visible efforts taken to correct the problems.
I am also bitter because Sony keeps the players up to date on what is beign worked on and what is being fixed and what is next on the agenda. We are pretty much kept in the dark regarding whatever is going on internally withing KK with regards to our product which to me seems unprofessional. Since all we get are patchnotes at the time of the patches' release, are usually horribly incomplete, and usually differ widely from what was actually being tested actively on the test server.
So no, they don't need to give us lines, but the fact that there is very little place for RP. No in-game mechanics for RP to speak of
Dark Age of Camelot, UO, Everquest, SW:G - Hell, pretty much all the major MMO's have 0% in-game mechanics to advance roleplay. So let's not make it seem like it's behind the times because of it.
The only game I play that actually does is several years old.*CLICK (http://www.realmserver.com)*
In the world today, most people who play games like this don't want to Roleplay, I found that out the hard way on a DAoC roleplay server... Which had none - except our names were filtered. Hence why I moved to the PvP server.
;)
play a tradeskiller What do you get?
Nothing but greif. I can understand your problems. Of the four pluto accounts I have access to, 3 are skillers. If it hadn't been for that fourth account I would've switched servers so I can go kill something again.
Tradeskillers need more love, they need more ways to play other than "drag - click - wait - drag - click". Ideally that's supposed to be coming with the rerelease.
Once again, we'd just have to wait until an official announcement to continue that conversation
:)
A) Voice complaints wether justified or not (And in this case they are all very much justified).
Yes, you can voice complaints, but on all accounts... You seem to no longer be a customer. =/
But to turn the "Pile of feces" into a "David"
:lol:
Very valid points.
edit -
I am also bitter because Sony keeps the players up to date on what is beign worked on and what is being fixed and what is next on the agenda. We are pretty much kept in the dark regarding whatever is going on internally withing KK with regards to our product which to me seems unprofessional
Well, SOE has practice from their multitude of EQ releases. I assure you, in the beginning of EQ; there were alot of similarities in how things were handled.
According to MJS they have had 3 coders working on Neocron NOT DOY, Neocron for over a year now. And they are just NOW getting around to fixing SOME of the problems that have plagued this game since it's release over a year ago
The big problem here, is that most bugs are based on the computer specs of the players... And if they don't fill out bug reports, nothing will ever get fixed. If the people at reakktor aren't getting these bugs, how are they supposed to fix them?
Granted, a number of them aren't computer based... But I like to feign ignorance and hide behind the "They're busy" comment.
:cool:
Neocron has VERY little content
Very true - no way to dodge that point. *shrug*
I still play it though.
:D
I dont blame KK for not releasing any info because all you people do is flame them. 10 bucks says that if they came out and said "We are doing this this way" at least 10 people would come out and flame them and whine and bitch. NC may have more bugs and less content then SOE games but SOE is a fucking huge company.
They have so much money for being bastards and charging 15 bucks a month that they can pay tons of coders. With a new publisher and DOY NC will be fixed. Old people will come back because of DOY and people who are thinking of quiting will stay. People will find out about NC, buy it, and KK will get money to pay coders to fix bugs and add all the fucking content you want.
Based on :
"Lareolan
Canceled account"
why do you care?
If you don't like what KK are offering don't pay for it. End of story.
I don't spend hours every day flaming SOE because I think their product is a POS.
Even if anything you said was accurate, relevant or valid (which it isn't) why are you bothering?
Do you think that KK and the mystery publisher will sudenly find a way to move the game on without this entirely predictable and understandable change?
o_O
Originally posted by Lareolan
I am also bitter because Sony keeps the players up to date on what is beign worked on and what is being fixed and what is next on the agenda. We are pretty much kept in the dark regarding whatever is going on internally withing KK with regards to our product which to me seems unprofessional. Since all we get are patchnotes at the time of the patches' release, are usually horribly incomplete, and usually differ widely from what was actually being tested actively on the test server.
Well one thing you need to accept is this is not sony.
I've no problem with paying for BDOY. I'll probably even buy the retail box so I have the box since I like boxes.
I have no problem with a new publisher asking me to pay again for BDOY. Not like I haven't been enjoying myself and I've already saved $30 per account this year by buying in 6 month blocks.
If you don't want to buy it, don't.
ex-machina
07-12-03, 07:26
Originally posted by Lareolan
Well, there are 2 flaws in what you just said...
1) The pub analogy is flawed. The pub does not "inherit" cutomers, and most pubs actually will do a whole lot of stuff for free just to get people to come, but as I said, invalid analogy because a pub doesn't have 2 separate methods of charging. A better example would be a cell-phone company. The company I bought the cell phone from has been acquired by another company a bit over a year ago. They did change a few things, but they did NOT force me to buy a new phone because of their "upgraded service" or "better coverage". Nor did they raise the monthly fees. Why? It's just smart business.
2) Other mmorpg companies charge for expansions, not total scrap and relaunch of the product. IE: You can still play AO without "Shadowlands", you can still play EQ without "Shadows of Luclin" and so on... Wereas it looks like you will HAVE to switch over to NC:BDOY because the current Neocron will no longer be supported. (Or at least that's the feeling I got from reading MJS's posts. An official clarification on this issue would help.)
And this is where I lose all respect for your argument.
First off all, where does KK state that they will force you to buy DoY to continue playing?
Second of all, where does KK state that they will be raising the monthly fee?
AFAIK both are speculative from players at the moment. Players = not a reliable source.
Thirdly, maybe other mmo's do things a different way with expansions. Maybe other mmo's are published by sony or ea or similar who have the power to support the game properly the first time around meaning they don't have to go through the pressure of a relaunch every time.
DoY just happens to be ready to come out now, it makes sense to bundle it with a relaunch. Noone said it wouldn't be available seperately.
Your argument is flawed because you are arguing speculative points and making speculative complaints. Until you know for sure you woudl do well to hold your tongue.
Disappointing.
tomparadox
07-12-03, 08:59
FFS
It's really simple :
Don't want to pay : FECK OFF then
Can't afford it : FECK OFF then
Don't think it's worth it : FECK OFF then
Feel robbed/lied to/etc : FECK OFF then
You people sicken me, get a goddam life and cut this repetative, pointless bitch-at-everything nonsense
take your own advise in steps 1 - 4.. they said free so it should be free in the first place sens it is late comeing out by a long time. i dont mind paying for it or anything tho.
oh btw your helmet in your pic thing looks like an odd trojen helm with the gold thing smashed down from some kinda hammer or something.
Originally posted by Marx
Dark Age of Camelot, UO, Everquest, SW:G - Hell, pretty much all the major MMO's have 0% in-game mechanics to advance roleplay. So let's not make it seem like it's behind the times because of it.
Don't know about the others, but you can play SW:G without ever leaving the city and killing a single mob, ever. Something like that promotes quite a bit more RP. Not to mention that there are plenty of classes that allow RP. For instance dancers... I know SW:G has a lot of other issues, but at the very least they tried and they have gotten the game to a place where it would be a nice environment for RPers. (I know quite a few people from my local RP guild who play it). I'd play it myself if I could run it on my old machine....
Originally posted by Marx
Nothing but greif. I can understand your problems. Of the four pluto accounts I have access to, 3 are skillers. If it hadn't been for that fourth account I would've switched servers so I can go kill something again.
Wow! 4 accounts?! I can barely justify paying for one... But yeah, that's a major flaw, don't you think? That you can't play a tradeskiller as your main character. I tried doing that on Uranus, tried promoting my company "Apple Technologies inc." Tried getting people to care, but no one sees tradeskillers as anything other than a 5-slot weapon making machine. Like there isn't even a person behind the character.
Originally posted by Marx
Tradeskillers need more love, they need more ways to play other than "drag - click - wait - drag - click". Ideally that's supposed to be coming with the rerelease.
I doubt it, I heard nothing about this. And yes, the "drag - click - wait" formula just doesn't work. Allow us to build mini "factories", or at least workshops (After all, the damned tools should not be portable!), allow us to make batches so we could mass-produce things instead of the stupid jumping proccessor window. Allow tradeskills to be useful for everything, not just weapons! Why the heck can you buy armor/implants at full quality? Why the heck can you not research level 3/4 armor and implants? I mean, implants I can SORT of understand, they're supposed to be semi-rare. But armor? You just go and buy it! And PA also, why can we not make PAs? Why are things so much cheaper to buy than they are to get from another source? A long time ago I noticed that if my armor breaks, it's much cheaper and easier to just go and buy new armor than it is to find a repairer. Repairs are near useless because items simply don't break... Except Melee which breaks in minutes. Makes it totally unreasonable to play a repairer. Recycling is even less than a joke. A semi-useful skill to have at 20 to clone ammo, but that's it. And salvaging is totally useless (I mean, read my article about tradeskillers in my sig).
Originally posted by Marx
Yes, you can voice complaints, but on all accounts... You seem to no longer be a customer. =/
Well, actually I am back now, but I keep forgetting to change my profile... Nor do I much feel like it.
Originally posted by Marx
Well, SOE has practice from their multitude of EQ releases. I assure you, in the beginning of EQ; there were alot of similarities in how things were handled.
Did you have to get shot in the head to know that being shot in the head is a bad idea? SOE already went through all this shit, why does KK have to go through that also? Shouldn't they learn from other people's mistakes?
Originally posted by Marx
The big problem here, is that most bugs are based on the computer specs of the players... And if they don't fill out bug reports, nothing will ever get fixed. If the people at reakktor aren't getting these bugs, how are they supposed to fix them?
Granted, a number of them aren't computer based... But I like to feign ignorance and hide behind the "They're busy" comment.
Well, I send as much as I can. But in all honesty, the game itself does not send any feedback when errors occur (unlike many games that give you the option), nor does it even save a log of the crash you could send or a core dump or anything. So how are we supposed to help them debug if they give us no tools to do it?!
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Well I checked your forum account and you're not MJS, so why are you making statements about something you know nothing about? People have been prediciting Neocron's demise for a long time now and yet here we all still are.
N
I also share the opinion that the neocron player base is dying out. I'm not MJS, but when I log on I see a much smaller player population than there used to be, and this is juz gonna get worse unless KK comes out with something quick.
@ DOY
Existing customers have waited a loooong time for DOY. I'm interested to see what KK has come out with too. Current players getting a discount for buying DOY seems fair, afterall a business has to make profits. However, if DOY does not live up to the expections of players, its gonna reeeeally piss a lot of ppl off.
Dade Murphey
07-12-03, 09:39
Originally posted by Lareolan
I have a serious question here actually. Ok, we were promised it would be a free expansion, now it looks like it's going to be a commercial re-launch of the entire game. Now the question is:
MJS says that the publisher doesn't get much money subscription fees so the publisher wants the current players to ALSO pay for the expansion. Now considering that with proper marketing the game's boxes should STILL be sold to all the new customers and as such the publisher will get their money's worth from the new players. So shouldn't the "expansion" be free to current players as not only a sign of good faith but also as a test for the publisher? After all, if publisher sucks again, and the game doesn't sell, then they don't make money. I think that's a lot more fair than making US the current customers pay a publisher that didn't do ANYTHING for us...
Also it should be free to current customers as a sign of good faith. After all, we stuck with you and supported you for a year now! We've been paying to essentially beta test the product that will be relaunching soon. Sure it didn't officially start out like that, but let's be honest, this is the way things look now especially due to MJS's recent comments.
Finally, the current customer base is incredibly low, so unless the publisher is not planning on doing much work to get new people to buy the box, they're not getting much money from us anyway (What do we have now? Like maybe 2k players? Sure there are 10k accounts, but most of those 2k players have more than 1 account and as MJS said already, if you have multiple accounts, you'd only need to buy 1 box). So the publisher pushing for the current players to pay for the "expansion" just reeks to me of the fact that they just want money and don't care about much else which automatically raises a red flag in my head.
Any thoughts?
Ideas?
Comments?
Official Statements?
Why is everyone crying about having to pay for the xpansion...Oh NO!! ffs everquest players with that luchlan xpansion not only had to buy the xpansion...but ALSO had to upgrade their comps...this is not bs...I have a friend who's very into the game and he knew a shitload people...him and another friend of mine among them...who had to upgrade their comps...quit crying about having to buy the xpansion...they said it would be a free xpansion, which personally amazed me...but hey, things chance...LIKE THE PUBLISHER...they managed to get current customers a discount price for it...that's better than nothing...fuckin suck it up...but it or don't...just quit crying about it
So the publisher pushing for the current players to pay for the "expansion" just reeks to me of the fact that they just want money and don't care about much
Hmmm...they're running this publishing campagn like a business...fuck me I didn't know businesses were out to make money...fuckin hell you learn something new every day...busenesses want to make money, next you'll tell me the sky is blue
Originally posted by Dade Murphey
Why is everyone crying about having to pay for the xpansion...Oh NO!! ffs everquest players with that luchlan xpansion not only had to buy the xpansion...but ALSO had to upgrade their comps...this is not bs...I have a friend who's very into the game and he knew a shitload people...him and another friend of mine among them...who had to upgrade their comps...
Everquest expansions add hundreds of hours of play time, and keep players who otherwise would quit playing for many more months.
How long will DOY keep people playing? Unless it is going to revolutionize Neocron gameplay I predict that the people who renew their canceled accounts wont play for more than a month. To be honest I will be suprised if they last a month at all.
I havn't decided any thing yet. I don't care if we have to pay or not. I only have one Question.
Will the synche bug still be in the game after the Doy realease? If so, or your not sure. Actually if you cannot promise us, that this make over will fix this bug. I am not interested. I refuse to buy another product, that has such a major flaw in it.
Originally posted by Lenard
...How long will DOY keep people playing? Unless it is going to revolutionize Neocron gameplay I predict that the people who renew their canceled accounts wont play for more than a month. ..
all that talk is hot air, we dont krow the prize of the NC:BDoY we dont know any features or PC requirements.
we where given some piece of infos but they dont help to make a whole picture.
hacknet(with or before doy), GFX changes, talk about player model changes, "whole new Game expirience", Database changes... oh and i forget the new maps of DoY that where the only thing that where promised for free.
we know for shure when we get the feature list in january. after that we get the update prize. with that informations we can evaluate it its a good deal.
btw, we pay the publisher that prize for give a % of it to KK and i believe on that "special offer" is LESS money for KK.
i really prefer to get a whole fresh client that stop the 30 min patch orgy on instalation that is the source of many problems.
Matthew.v.smith
07-12-03, 17:59
Originally posted by jernau
FFS
It's really simple :
Don't want to pay : FECK OFF then
Can't afford it : FECK OFF then
Don't think it's worth it : FECK OFF then
Feel robbed/lied to/etc : FECK OFF then
You people sicken me, get a goddam life and cut this repetative, pointless bitch-at-everything nonsense.
I agree seeing the same crap over and over does my head right in.
Matty.:angel:
This may sound like extreme trolling, and it probably is but....
Are you people fucking retarded!? We dont know enought about DOY to justify saying that it will be good or not, we dont now enough about the discount, we dont know enough about the publisher so wait for KK to tell us.
Honestly if you dont want/care about DOY then stop fucking complaining. No one is forcing you to buy it.
Oh and stop with the "Wahhhhh They said it was going to be free waaaa" shit. Just cut it out. In the real world things change and life isent fair. Deal with it.
but you can play SW:G without ever leaving the city and killing a single mob, ever. Something like that promotes quite a bit more RP. Not to mention that there are plenty of classes that allow RP. For instance dancers
Just because the game offers abilities to tradeskills in manners other than that which promotes war doesn't mean that it lacks in RP.
Once again, the player is given guidelines and it's up to him or her to play the role.
Sure they can dance and have noncombatant ways to level... But that amounts to jack if the people playing are like "OMFG 1337 HAWR HRAR@!!!!". Which from what I've seen of the MMO demographic... Would be most.
Wow! 4 accounts?! I can barely justify paying for one
I only pay for one, the others belong to friends who're taking ELOA's from the game.
But yeah, that's a major flaw, don't you think? That you can't play a tradeskiller as your main character
I agree with you there - but it doesn't change the fact that we don't know if things will be changed with the NC:BDoY release. Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't.
Like there isn't even a person behind the character.
Alot of tradeskill people in this game and many other games suffer from this issue. The only difference is that here in Neocron the tradeskill becomes your life if you want to be very good at it.
Whilst most other games have other stat lines soley for skilling.
I personally think that tradeskills could've been taken care of a different way, but *shrug*.
I doubt it, I heard nothing about this. And yes, the "drag - click - wait" formula just doesn't work. Allow us to build mini "factories", or at least workshops
There's alot of things we haven't heard about officially. But look at how things have been shaping up.
Once again I reiterate that I agree with you that tradeskills are all but useless for the most part. But once again I reiterate the need to wait for official word on the new release before making your damning decision.
why does KK have to go through that also? Shouldn't they learn from other people's mistakes?
I've yet to see a place where SOE explained in detail all the mistakes they've made...
Anyway, they never would because then another company could swoop up faster and easier...
Some mistakes have to be dealt with and learned from, because generally you don't know it's a mistake until the shit hits the fan.
So how are we supposed to help them debug if they give us no tools to do it
By explaining what you were doing, where you were doing it, and what was going on at the time - You generally give enough info to assist the coders in dealing with the issue.
The game is complex, but not in such a manner as to require the same attention.
Anyway, the MMO's I know of which provide the services you refer to are in their 2+ year mark (Or are run by the same company as one which is 2+ years :rolleyes:...) Which means 1.) They've had lots of time to take care of that particular coding issue. 2.) They've had enough time to make money and hire more people solely for that game project issue.
When Neocron actually makes more money than it does now and Reakktor hires more coders for the Neocron project... I sincerely doubt they'd just sit back and watch us try to bite our ears whilst thapping our arms across our chest.
Existing customers have waited a loooong time for DOY
Frankly I can give a crap less about DoY. To me it's just another city with more factions.
What I do care about it the new publisher - because their ability or inability to act will affect the server populations. Frankly, Playing a game where the servers are almost packed all the time is alot more appealing to me than getting a new city.
Everquest expansions add hundreds of hours of play time
It adds hundreds of hours of playtime for those that are already addicted to the game. If you're already turned off by a game, an expansion isn't going to change your mind. It's just the same shit with a different color scheme.
How long will DOY keep people playing
If the rerelease keeps ALOT of fresh faces coming in, than frankly I'll be playing for awhile as will alot of people I knoew. The social interaction is more important to me than the NEW UBAR 1337 ITAMS!!!111
;)
i really prefer to get a whole fresh client that stop the 30 min patch orgy on instalation that is the source of many problems
Agree 100%
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