View Full Version : Exploit or not?
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 15:59
Ok, please read the entire post before answering the question. I am not one of those people that calls everything an exploit....so please read and understand. And please don't take this as a "I got owned and now I'm bitching" thread....we won the fight, I just wanted to know the oppinion of the community.
Last night my friend and I were on a run going to NF1. We ran into two red TG and one BT (for those that don't know SXR is BT now). Anyway, we commence to fighting these people......it was a great fight.....one tank, one PPU against one APU, and one PPU. Now, durring the fight this BT person had obviously chosen his side (siding with the TG), but instead of shooting my friend he is continuously healing him (negating my heals). Anyway, we won the fight and the PPU and PE ran off....we couldn't do anything to the BT because he was OUR FACTION.
Now, here is why I consider this an exploit. This allied runner had taken sides with TG. He was trying to decide the outcome of the fight, but had they won and both of us died he would have had no penalty (sl/ faction loss). I wouldn't have been so disgusted if this person would have chosen sides and he would have paid the price.....but he didn't want to pay the price.....so we are at an interesting cunundrum. Has noob buffing finally come to an all time low, and should there be a penalty for allied runners noob buffing? How do we fix noob buffing without making the PPU absolutely invincible?
I always agreed with noob buffing (I'm a PPU), but it has gotten to the point that it's not just the PPU getting noob buffed......it's everybody, and like I said that allied runner would have had NO penalty if we would have died. I don't know a fix for this, I was hoping that somebody here did:) ....Please discuss.
I wont vote, but it could be classed as RP "I hate BT, I want to allie myself with the TG, I'm going to cause mass disruption before I go!", kind of thing.
However, i disagree with newb buffing, there i was buffing oath tl 105, and he was "OMG NEWB HAX0R" but thats a different story ;)
I don't think its an exploit, well actually it isn't.
Its is really annoying though.
Oh, this BT just out of curiosity did his name start with an S?
I do think a system should be created where Traitors can be put forward to a council who deal with the matter. I.E make them lose faction symp, Have own Faction Guards Shoot them on Sight, and even bannish from Faction in extreme cases.
But that would take a lot of working i'd guess.
Gotterdammerung
04-12-03, 16:42
In war, the object is not so much to kill the enemy but to wound him. A dead enemy needs no attenton, but a wounded one needs the attention of 2-4 others to remove him and additional treatment behind the lines.
Your little BT friend chose his strategy well. His healing of your friend un-nerved you enough that most of your attention was probably focused on worrying about your friend and the outcome (much the same way time & energy is wasted on a battlefield). His goal was to rattle you 2 enough so that they could get the upper hand. It didn't work this time but all he did was make a strategic choice about how he was going to fight you.
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I wont vote, but it could be classed as RP "I hate BT, I want to allie myself with the TG, I'm going to cause mass disruption before I go!", kind of thing.
However, i disagree with newb buffing, there i was buffing oath tl 105, and he was "OMG NEWB HAX0R" but thats a different story ;)
OMFG.............joo QUOTED MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.........
Im honored :D
You negated meh tank buffs...........with 1337 tl105 spells.........i was sad......
nOOb buffing is lame, but tis good against Gms :D
*looks at carb*
wanna try? :p
actually oath.. umm.. that spell........ it had no slots on it hehehe :p thats why it was a n00b buffz0r, cause my normal shelter = better protection :p
I agree with noob buffing aswell i don't see it as a problem when a pe or a spy or tank try to tl3 or shelt / def u but it has become so bad that the capped ppu's are running round with a standard shelter in there belt aimed at u or anyone u rez that is not rite and it is not a ppu's roll
cannins, edit/remove that mate, you might give people idea's (thats something *I* hadnt thought about, and wouldnt do either, but some people who hadnt thought of it, might now do it)
LOL so an allied runner we cant kill without loosing soullight can attack us (call it what it will its an attack) if your going to rp that way then whay cant the faction kick that person, or why isnt there a way make an individual runner or clan an enemy so they cant hide behind faction loyalties.
Muppets.
Originally posted by Candaman
I agree with noob buffing aswell i don't see it as a problem when a pe or a spy or tank try to tl3 or shelt / def u but it has become so bad that the capped ppu's are running round with a standard shelter in there belt aimed at u or anyone u rez that is not rite and it is not a ppu's roll
That is the winning strat PPU can cast that thing fast as hell only one way to drop low tl shelter and that is from a PPU. APU debuffs your PPU rebuffs.
I've just had an idea, goign to put all my melee tanks Int into Psi Use, MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Originally posted by Carbonite
Its not an Exploit...
Now get it through your heads already.
Sure its lame BUT,
Originally posted by Carbonite
Its not an Exploit...
Originally posted by ghandisfury
we couldn't do anything to the BT because he was OUR FACTION.
that is untrue, you can still target him and kill him
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Now, here is why I consider this an exploit. This allied runner had taken sides with TG. He was trying to decide the outcome of the fight, but had they won and both of us died he would have had no penalty (sl/ faction loss).
its not an exploit because he never directly attacked you which had you died of course he wouldnt have incurred a SL hit.....youre problem, like many others is that youre putting youre soulight as youre main priority, when in fact if someone is attacking you you should attack back allied or not.....you wouldve incurred the same penalty from a neutral runner and not made the same bitch I garuntee......PvP in most cases is always gonna have some drawback, unless of course youre in a warzone where there is no SL loss or belt drop.....these are thing that when you decide that youre gonna PvP you surrender all rights to bitch when everyone knows all the consequences anyways.......
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 17:52
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I wont vote, but it could be classed as RP "I hate BT, I want to allie myself with the TG, I'm going to cause mass disruption before I go!", kind of thing.
And I totally agree with this...but he should have to pay the price. If he wanted to RP, then he should have shot us. What was our recourse? How could we possibly STOP this person without receiving a penalty ourselves?
Originally posted by Gotterdammerung
Your little BT friend chose his strategy well. His healing of your friend un-nerved you enough that most of your attention was probably focused on worrying about your friend and the outcome (much the same way time & energy is wasted on a battlefield). His goal was to rattle you 2 enough so that they could get the upper hand. It didn't work this time but all he did was make a strategic choice about how he was going to fight you.
No, I think his goal was to negate Holy heals with his heals.;) I think the strategy he chose was cowardly to say the least...So I ask you the same question....he would have recieved no penalty for noob buffing, but had we killed him, we would have recieved a soul light hit coupled with a faction hit.....
Originally posted by Carbonite
Its not an Exploit...
I am tempted to name other exploits that are just as frustrating.......but under this pretence you're saying that even though this runner was trying to help decide the outcome of the fight, and he would have had no SL loss, no faction loss, NADA....and there was NOTHING we could do about it unless we wanted to suffer the consiquenses....he wasn't exploiting?
EDIT: I wanted to thank the mods for showing up in this thread, but I have to ask one more question of you.....was noob buffing/healing inteanded for use as a weapon? If so, why is there no soul light of faction loss?
Not an exploit, just something that makes the game overall less fun.
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 18:03
Originally posted by extract
that is untrue, you can still target him and kill him
Exactly, I already know this....that is the ONLY thing we could have done. So it's OK that we would have had to pay the price for killing this runner, and he would have walked away without a scratch? (if they would have won)
Originally posted by extract
its not an exploit because he never directly attacked you which had you died of course he wouldnt have incurred a SL hit.....youre problem, like many others is that youre putting youre soulight as youre main priority, when in fact if someone is attacking you you should attack back allied or not.....
NO...My SL is at -14 for doing exactly that.....and my point is that it IS an exploit BECAUSE he didn't shoot me. And if he would have shot me, I would have killed him accepting the price....However in this case it was one sided, and I wasn't going to be the only one with a SL hit.
Originally posted by extract
you wouldve incurred the same penalty from a neutral runner and not made the same bitch I garuntee......PvP in most cases is always gonna have some drawback, unless of course youre in a warzone where there is no SL loss or belt drop.....these are thing that when you decide that youre gonna PvP you surrender all rights to bitch when everyone knows all the consequences anyways.......
I'm prepared to accept the consiquenses of my actions. I always have been. The point I'm getting at is this runner was not prepared to accept any consiquenses.......he just wanted to help TG without anything directly happening to him. And if it were a nuetral runner, I would have still been here;)
It's all good and well to use the rp argument. Players should indeed be able to choose, a member of BT could decide to go renegade and inflict damage before he leaves. The problem here is that if anyone in BT tries to stop the renegade... they get a major SL hit. There are no repercussions at all for the renegade. Biotech will not disown him nomatter what he does. As a ppu this is made even worse, the normal sl hits won't apply to him. As long as he doesn't shock, he can use plenty of other spells to assist others in killing BT. Even better he can ressurect people the BT managed to kill. This is yet another piece of evidence that Neocron does not expect you to play a passive class.
Promethius
04-12-03, 20:03
I voted thats all noob buffing is not an exploit at all because well even tho the object of the noob buff is to do more harm than good it still heals you. I see it more as a strategy than an exploit. If you take SL hits for healling someone then well PPus are going to end up with -2384796 SL. Also wat if your not teamed with a runner and u ask for a heal in which u recieve one to go fight in which u die causeing the one to heal u lose SL even tho they are helping.
Basicaly althou its annoying to PPUs and i guess other non PPU's its just something that u got to live with. (i.e. parashock).
Tho i guess if enough people complain about it they can implement anti-heal drugs (Tho i'd say suck it up and leave it as it is :cool: )
E: bt wats the definition of an exploit? Mobs that u can dmg and they can't attack u. way to recieve unearned money... Cuz IMO i don't even see how this falls under exploit.
If you take it from the time period. PPus can snag heals or watever on people just like APUs. Just because a crappy heal is put on u doesn't mean it SHOULDN'T be there. Its kinda like if someone shoots u...yea it sux but jsut deal with it.
greendonkeyuk
04-12-03, 20:12
didnt read the thread but if you guys had died the Biotech guy would have lost sl and WOULD have lost faction symp.
ive been in this situation and actually killed the person who was my faction. i ended up losing my faction status because of it.....
Promethius
04-12-03, 20:15
I think i kno wats wrong with your post
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
didnt read the thread but if you guys had died the Biotech guy would have lost sl and WOULD have lost faction symp.
ive been in this situation and actually killed the person who was my faction. i ended up losing my faction status because of it.....
noob buffing isn't an exploit, however what the guy did was exploiting the game mechanics. Using a positive item to have negative effects while hiding behind the faction to protect against attacks (which would incur SL).
I am not sure what kind of system could possible resolve this. If I was a GM the person in the story you mentioned I would be dropping from a large height for thier actions along with a message saying "TL3 that bitch ^-^".
Well kill him and take the SL hit or run an hide.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Exactly, I already know this....that is the ONLY thing we could have done. So it's OK that we would have had to pay the price for killing this runner, and he would have walked away without a scratch? (if they would have won)
yes its ok, he never attacked you.....i assume i dont have to say it again.....its lame at best i know....but theres been threads and bitches about it before and it has been ruled not to be an exploit to low TL heal/buff an opponent
Originally posted by ghandisfury
NO...My SL is at -14 for doing exactly that.....and my point is that it IS an exploit BECAUSE he didn't shoot me. And if he would have shot me, I would have killed him accepting the price....However in this case it was one sided, and I wasn't going to be the only one with a SL hit.
dude you should really take a moment and listen to what you are saying.....you want someone to lose soulite who never has attacked you...all he did was heal you....a heal is a heal, it doesnt hurt you 90% of PEs in 1v1 situations will never say they hate that TL3 heal.....APUs without a PPU will call it a godsend.....PPUs will laugh and throw up a heal sanctum if they really feel theyre in trouble......its an annoyance, not a hinderance/exploit
Originally posted by ghandisfury
I'm prepared to accept the consiquenses of my actions. I always have been. The point I'm getting at is this runner was not prepared to accept any consiquenses.......he just wanted to help TG without anything directly happening to him. And if it were a nuetral runner, I would have still been here;)
without anything directly happening to him? what couldnt happen to him that could happen to a BT enemy? aside from him not taking a SL hit from him never attacking you?.....you want to know the real genius behind this scheme? its the guy who youre complaining about, he knew that SL was gonna be youre upmost concern and he used it against you.....let me ask you this though.....if in fact this in youre mind was such a problem, why did you engage in battle in the first place? obviously this mysterious BT runner chose sides before battle even begun....why not just walk away?
abusing game mechanics = exploit
.
.cy
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 20:59
Originally posted by g0rt
tactic
not exploit
If he would have suffered the same consiquenses as I would have to stop him then I would call it a good tactic....
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
abusing game mechanics = exploit
.
.cy
Thank you:D
It's called a Higher TL spell of the same type should remove the existing spell and start the timelife of the new spell. Spells of the same TL cast while that spell is running will have no effect as they do now.
It's pretty damn simple to me o_O
Originally posted by -FN-
It's called a Higher TL spell of the same type should remove the existing spell and start the timelife of the new spell. Spells of the same TL cast while that spell is running will have no effect as they do now.
It's pretty damn simple to me o_O
yep its so damn easy ... i wish KK would fix it...
.cy
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
abusing game mechanics = exploit
.
.cy
its not abusing game mechanics tho o_O
there is nothing wrong with using a heal on someone even if they don't need or want it :D
but i do think higher tl spells should override low tl ones!
Originally posted by ghandisfury
...and my point is that it IS an exploit BECAUSE he didn't shoot me. I am having to trouble coming to terms with how non-action can be an exploit.
Granted it is lame.
But come on... he DID heal the guy. On a philosophical level, while lame, how can you advocate that someone should take a SL hit for trying to heal someone that ends up dying?
I have been levelling plenty of times and some PPU I dont know heals me when he sees I am hurting after an encounter. If I die later- are you suggesting that PPU should take a SL hit for my death?
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 21:38
Originally posted by Shakari
there is nothing wrong with using a heal on someone even if they don't need or want it :D
I agree....but how do you suppose I "heal this guy to death"?
Originally posted by Shakari
its not abusing game mechanics tho o_O
He was abusing game mechanics because he hid behind soul light and tried to effect the outcome of a fight, knowing full well that there was nothing we could do to him without suffering the consiquenses of a HUGE SL hit....he also knew that by his way of "fighting" he would not have to suffer the same consiquenses.
Originally posted by Strych9
I am having to trouble coming to terms with how non-action can be an exploit.
Granted it is lame.
But come on... he DID heal the guy. On a philosophical level, while lame, how can you advocate that someone should take a SL hit for trying to heal someone that ends up dying?
I have been levelling plenty of times and some PPU I dont know heals me when he sees I am hurting after an encounter. If I die later- are you suggesting that PPU should take a SL hit for my death?
No, I don't know how to fix it (aside from making all higher end spells negate lowere end spells).....but the point is that this guy WAS exploiting......see above, there was litteraly nothing I could do, and there was no consiquenses for him to face had we died.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
He was abusing game mechanics because he hid behind soul light and tried to effect the outcome of a fight, knowing full well that there was nothing we could do to him without suffering the consiquenses of a HUGE SL hit....he also knew that by his way of "fighting" he would not have to suffer the same consiquenses.
That is not abuse nothing says he cant do what he did. Exactly what was abusive about what he did?
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 21:46
Originally posted by KimmyG
That is not abuse nothing says he cant do what he did. Exactly what was abusive about what he did?
I couldn't stop him without suffering a soul light hit (thought this has been said 20 times here:p ) and by his way of "fighting" he would not suffer the same SL hit. If he would have shot me, I could call it RP and would have killed him (because both of us had something to lose).....if he would have been enemie faction I would have called it good tactics......if it would have been a warzone, I would have just killed him and called it lame......None of these were the case. We had ALOT to lose, and he had nothing to lose by "fighting" us.
So you engaged into a fight and didn't want to take SL. Wella sob story none the less but nothing says he cant do what he did so no expliot so he is the winner.
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 21:50
Originally posted by KimmyG
So you engaged into a fight and didn't want to take SL. Wella sob story none the less but nothing says he cant do what he did so no expliot so he is the winner.
I engaged in a fight with TG. Not with my own faction. And like I said, I didn't give a shit about losing SL......I just don't think it should be one sided.....do you?
Well I think there should be no SL but as long as this system is here you can enjoy moments like this.
So stop crying about this and pettition for the removal of SL.
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 22:03
So you're saying it IS an exploit then....thanks.;)
Originally posted by ghandisfury
No, I don't know how to fix it (aside from making all higher end spells negate lowere end spells).....but the point is that this guy WAS exploiting......see above, there was litteraly nothing I could do, and there was no consiquenses for him to face had we died. Sorry, but you simply declaring this 'exploiting' does not make it such.
First, the GMs said its not an exploit.
Second, unless they change the game code so that higher TL buffs overwrite the lower ones, then this IS PART OF THE GAME CODE AS INTENDED.
As such, YOU SIMPLY SHOULD ACCEPT THIS AS PART OF THE GAME.
With a game, you learn to play within the rules. You may not like a rule, but if its a rule, you play within it. Right now, the noob buffs is a rule, a part of the game. Unless that rule is changed, it may be LAME, but its not an EXPLOIT.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
So you're saying it IS an exploit then....thanks.;)
NO I am saying it is lame in theory but an expliot no.
Lameness from a lame system. Anyway say want you want create all the polls you want there aint gonna be shit done about this. Cause it is legit
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 22:09
Originally posted by Strych9
Sorry, but you simply declaring this 'exploiting' does not make it such.
First, the GMs said its not an exploit.
Second, unless they change the game code so that higher TL buffs overwrite the lower ones, then this IS PART OF THE GAME CODE AS INTENDED.
As such, YOU SIMPLY SHOULD ACCEPT THIS AS PART OF THE GAME.
With a game, you learn to play within the rules. You may not like a rule, but if its a rule, you play within it. Right now, the noob buffs is a rule, a part of the game. Unless that rule is changed, it may be LAME, but its not an EXPLOIT.
Agreed....not just lame though....SUPERLAMER!!:p
An exploit is very easy to define, anything you do in the game which the designers did not intend and gives you an advantage. Exploits vary of course in how severely they affect the game. Based on this, kk acts on some and does not act on others. When psi shield was used hostily on other monks kk deemed it important enough to fix. Later on heal and other lowlvl ppu spells are being used hostily, so far it seems kk doesn't consider this important enough to fix. That does not change that it IS and exploit. What you guys are saying is that unless someone punishes us, we're not doing anything wrong. It's the same in law enforcement in the real world. You may not be caught for stealin those mp3s or a pack of ciggaretes, but you did do something illegal. However you want to rationalize it does nothing to change that fact.
I don't understand why there is even an argument here, unless I misunderstood the situation it's pretty clear cut. Some BT's attacked a TG who was helped by a BT PPU. The ppu healed the TG and used crappy spells to hinder the BT's. The ppu will face no sl loss or any repercussion for aiding someone kill a BT. The BT's on the other hand will receive a sl loss if they kill the ppu.
One side punished for killing faction, other side not punished for helping faction be killed. Does anyone seriously think this is fine?
Originally posted by ghandisfury
So you're saying it IS an exploit then....thanks.;)
Uhhhh did you read the entire Thread ??
Its NOT an exploit ...
Carinth- was the Psi Shield thing an exploit actually? If it was an exploit, they would punish people doing it. From what I recall, people didnt like it, KK agreed, so they changed it. i.e., changed the rules like I mentioned above.
Please correct me if I am wrong. But if it was an "exploit" anyone caught doing it would have been banned. I dont think that was the case.
ghandisfury
04-12-03, 23:40
Originally posted by Carbonite
Uhhhh did you read the entire Thread ??
Its NOT an exploit ...
Yes, I have read the entire thread. I also responded directly to your comment on the fourth reply to my thread....why didn't you answere my question? You're saying that this BT PE can assist in the death of his faction without suffering a SL/FS hit, and the only way for ME to deal with it is to kill him and suffer said consiquenses......and you're agreeing with this?
So if I would have died then he would have walked away with my belt and good soul light....and if we would have killed him (which is the only thing we could have done) then we would have had to do multiple missions to recover.........and it's not an exploit?
I'm sorry, does anybody have the official word on what is or isn't an exploit? Cause I'm a bit confused here. If it's not to much trouble carbonite, would you mind posting why it's NOT an exploit instead of just stating "it's not an exploit".....
I do not think tht it is an exploit. However, it is pretty low for somebody of your own faction to turn on you in that way. I guess all is fair in love and war but anybody with even a grain of conscience would not do such a thing.
When I was on Pluto I got int the situation where I was doing epic and was in a faction that was friendly to TG. My clan had a war and I joined them but when I arrived at the scene the TG's did not shoot me because I was not 'red' to them. I simply could not shoot people that thought I was friendly to them and just left the scene.
But I guess it is up to the individual to make their choices and up to others to remember what type of person that is. Even his 'new' allies that he helped will need to remember that in the same way he could turn on them one day, I would not trust that character ever again.
Originally posted by Shakari
its not abusing game mechanics tho o_O
there is nothing wrong with using a heal on someone even if they don't need or want it :D
but i do think higher tl spells should override low tl ones!
Its just a bunch of carebears bitching and whining.
This is in no way an exploit. They wanna carebear this game so far to hell that anything you do other then shoot the other guy is an exploit.
Get real. Popping a tl3 heal on the guy then attacking him is a valid tactic to use against a hybrid or ppu monk. Plain and simple.
Originally posted by Strych9
Carinth- was the Psi Shield thing an exploit actually? If it was an exploit, they would punish people doing it. From what I recall, people didnt like it, KK agreed, so they changed it. i.e., changed the rules like I mentioned above.
Please correct me if I am wrong. But if it was an "exploit" anyone caught doing it would have been banned. I dont think that was the case.
Strych9, as I said there are varying degrees of exploits. It would be ludicrous for them to track down and punish everyone who used Psi Shield offensively. The same happened for all the duped rare weapons that were spread around early onl. They managed to catch some of the offenders, but the equipment itself managed to get out. When helpful players reported what they thought was duped equipment, the gm's could check it out. Otherwise there wasn't much they could do. That doesn't mean using duped equipment is endorsed by kk. For another example, many monks have been guilty of using a technique that everyone agrees is an exploit. You can switch to third person and for a short time this let you shoot from behind the glass and be perfectly safe. The area was closed down many times to prevent this, but I don't recall people being banned for it. We could also point out all the people that took advantage of the TH security bots to level up faster.
It's difficult to second guess KK, trying to figure out what they consider an exploit and what not. Using a simple definition like this saves a lot of headache. When I first found someone using psi shield offensively, my immediate thought was that has to be an exploit. My understanding of psi shield was as a defensive spell to boost your defenses while sacrificing spell casting.
Really though this isn't even the point. It doesn't matter that the ppu monk used crappy buffs. The issue here is that the game punishes one player and not the other. The ppu is not penalized for helping someone kill his faction members. Yet said faction members are penalized if they want to kill the ppu.
gort, please show me where in any definitions, the spell Heal is defined as "Offensive spell which blocks target from casting Heal themselves" I see no logical reason why heal should prevent me from casting a better heal. I'm sorry that you have to exploit to kill monks, but that's kk's fault. You shouldn't have to resort to tactics like that to kill a monk.
Originally posted by g0rt
Get real. Popping a tl3 heal on the guy then attacking him is a valid tactic to use against a hybrid or ppu monk. Plain and simple.
I don't care if someone cast a tl3 heal me or any other ppu, but then you get some lame people and clans that do it to everyone including non ppus. They cast shit buffs on people after they get rezzed before a ppu has time to rezz them. They have people that are dedicated to going around casting shit buffs on people during ops wars. Now I think thats exploiting since there going around using these spells that were'nt meant to kill people to kill people.
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 01:48
Originally posted by g0rt
Its just a bunch of carebears bitching and whining.
This is in no way an exploit. They wanna carebear this game so far to hell that anything you do other then shoot the other guy is an exploit.
Get real. Popping a tl3 heal on the guy then attacking him is a valid tactic to use against a hybrid or ppu monk. Plain and simple.
O_M_F_G:mad: Next time you post, read the thread (or at least the actual start of the thread) before you reply.
You think I'm a "carebear"? I'm not trying to change anything that shouldn't be there in the first place. I've ALWAYS said I agree with TL3 heals. I've ALWAYS said I agree with noob buffing. AND I'M A PPU. The reason I beleive in this particular case is an exploit because he was "fighting" me in a way that was CAREBEAR. He didn't have the balls to shoot at me......he didn't want his SL hurt, but the only way I could have stopped him was to hurt my SL.
READ THE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST. *mumbles obsinities*
@Carinth: It was a PE, not a PPU.;)
Originally posted by ghandisfury
O_M_F_G:mad: Next time you post, read the thread (or at least the actual start of the thread) before you reply.
You think I'm a "carebear"? I'm not trying to change anything that shouldn't be there in the first place. I've ALWAYS said I agree with TL3 heals. I've ALWAYS said I agree with noob buffing. AND I'M A PPU. The reason I beleive in this particular case is an exploit because he was "fighting" me in a way that was CAREBEAR. He didn't have the balls to shoot at me......he didn't want his SL hurt, but the only way I could have stopped him was to hurt my SL.
READ THE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST. *mumbles obsinities*
Well thats a SL problem not an exploit. Ive said it over, and over, and over, and over, and over....again like a broken record that SL has to either GO or be changed considerably.
Im sorry, but I cannot stand how every second thing is called an exploit by this damn community.
Whats next, eating a sandwich while i play neocron is an exploit?
The whole exploit bit has to be GIVEN UP...just because you DIED doesn't mean you were EXPLOITED, noobs. (talking in general on this last bit)
•Super|\|ova•
05-12-03, 02:10
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the vote results :( that's just stupid... I think they should finally make the upper TL spells stack on the effect of the lower TL spells.
Just because it annoys you doesnt make it an exploit.
Its a _tactic_ that you disagree with... deal with it!
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
abusing game mechanics = exploit
.
.cy
Therefore so were old hybrids.
Originally posted by Scikar
Therefore so were old hybrids.
And what happened to hybrids?
Originally posted by BaDDaSS
Just because it annoys you doesnt make it an exploit.
Its a _tactic_ that you disagree with... deal with it!
Thank you! Theres someone who knows what they are talking about.
Originally posted by petek480
And what happened to hybrids?
Did they get banned?
Originally posted by Scikar
Did they get banned?
Nope, but KK did fix them.
Originally posted by petek480
Nope, but KK did fix them.
It took a hell of a lot more whining to get hybrids nerfed than I've seen about noob buffs.
Also I don't think .cyl0n would agree that hybrids were exploiting. ;)
EDIT: Besides, apparently playing an uber hybrid took skill. Does that mean noob buffing takes skill? Sounds like it to me.
•Super|\|ova•
05-12-03, 02:25
Originally posted by BaDDaSS
Just because it annoys you doesnt make it an exploit.
Its a _tactic_ that you disagree with... deal with it!
lmfao... a tactic? haha. it isn't a tactic since it has absolutely nothing do with fighting. as gandhisfury said you won't even lose SL for using that on someone and he dies. Just pathetic... these guys who use this "tactic" are the same who beat up old ladies and steal little children's sweets. behaviour called lame... as not respectable act. How can you guys live with the fact that the guy you and your friend just killed died because of TL3 healing of yours... not because you have any skills to fight. Jesus. :lol:
Hybrids weren't an expliot there were an imbalance
TheDuckMan
05-12-03, 02:28
I dont think we should give lamers an excuse. There is no excuse for people like that. Those are the kind of people that go on trade channle and brag about it. I feel there is no excuse for that and thats a very sad person if they have to use lame "tactics" (i wouldnt even consider it a tactic but i dont know what else to call it) to kill you. I dont think is an exploit but i think its pretty lame. You should be able to input names in your clan part of the city com that are KOS and can be killed without lossin SL or somethin.
Originally posted by BaDDaSS
Just because it annoys you doesnt make it an exploit.
Its a _tactic_ that you disagree with... deal with it!
A tactic? How is it a tactic? Either someone told you or you realized yourself that Neocron does not allow spells to overwrite each other. Thus castin crappy heal prevents casting of any other heal. All you did was take advantage of game mechanics to use something in a way not originaly intended. Oh wait, that's started to sound familiar : p Just because you can do something, does not mean it is legal. People are slipping into locked zones and closed off areas, we all agree that is an exploit. How are they doing anything different from here? People take advantage of third person view as a monk to target things they wouldn't be able to otherwise. I could go on with "tactics" we agree are exploits.
I think you all associate too much with the word exploit. Sometimes exploits can be clever new uses the developers hadn't accounted for, but agree is still withing the boundries of the game. Even if they don't approve of it, they may not consider it important enough to warrant a fix. Fixes can have unforseen consequences, disturbing some other aspect of the game.
It is often said that these exploits are used to kill an otherwise unkillable target. Somehow people justify it that way. People argued that Psi Shield was not an exploit too. Instead of focusing on exploits, why not consider why you are forced to search for underhanded ways to kill certain people. It's a symptom of game imbalance, which is what we should be focusing on. Not long after they fixed Psi Shield, they introduced Anti Shelter. Now we have an ingame, perfectly legal method of killing ppu's. I would much rather have well thought out normal methods of taking me down, then using shady methods like tl3 heals. For a ppu, heal is our primary weapon. For a comparison it would be as if someone using an Unlabeled Plasma Canon to shoot a Tank prevented the Tank from using his Cursed Soul. There's some warped logic...
Originally posted by Scikar
It took a hell of a lot more whining to get hybrids nerfed than I've seen about noob buffs.
Also I don't think .cyl0n would agree that hybrids were exploiting. ;)
EDIT: Besides, apparently playing an uber hybrid took skill. Does that mean noob buffing takes skill? Sounds like it to me.
That I can think of, nothing an uber hybrid did could qualify as an exploit. You could maybe say kk did not intend hybrids to be so powerful.. but it wasn't really the hybrid's actions that made them powerful. Hybrids did exactly what every other class does, distribute skills, imps, and equipment to get the most out of your character. Their class is simply stronger in comparison to the others. This is a balance issue, has nothing to do with exploiting.
maintaining your title as best of the best when it's so easy to become powerful means you do have to work extra hard. Anyone could pick up a hybrid and be more powerful then the other classes. Someone with skill on a hybrid though pulls off stunts that bring down the nerf hammer. The same is true for ppu's now. The truely skilled ppu's are a notch above the other ppu's.
sigh I should prolly stop posting in this thread. I'm repeating myself : /
•Super|\|ova•
05-12-03, 03:07
Originally posted by Carinth
A tactic? How is it a tactic? Either someone told you or you realized yourself that Neocron does not allow spells to overwrite each other. Thus castin crappy heal prevents casting of any other heal. All you did was take advantage of game mechanics to use something in a way not originaly intended. Oh wait, that's started to sound familiar : p Just because you can do something, does not mean it is legal. People are slipping into locked zones and closed off areas, we all agree that is an exploit. How are they doing anything different from here? People take advantage of third person view as a monk to target things they wouldn't be able to otherwise. I could go on with "tactics" we agree are exploits.
I think you all associate too much with the word exploit. Sometimes exploits can be clever new uses the developers hadn't accounted for, but agree is still withing the boundries of the game. Even if they don't approve of it, they may not consider it important enough to warrant a fix. Fixes can have unforseen consequences, disturbing some other aspect of the game.
It is often said that these exploits are used to kill an otherwise unkillable target. Somehow people justify it that way. People argued that Psi Shield was not an exploit too. Instead of focusing on exploits, why not consider why you are forced to search for underhanded ways to kill certain people. It's a symptom of game imbalance, which is what we should be focusing on. Not long after they fixed Psi Shield, they introduced Anti Shelter. Now we have an ingame, perfectly legal method of killing ppu's. I would much rather have well thought out normal methods of taking me down, then using shady methods like tl3 heals. For a ppu, heal is our primary weapon. For a comparison it would be as if someone using an Unlabeled Plasma Canon to shoot a Tank prevented the Tank from using his Cursed Soul. There's some warped logic...
Amen!
Regarding Hybrids:
Originally posted by Thanatos
We don't want you to have really good attack and defensive spells. As long as it is possible to play effectively like that, we'll change stuff until it is no longer effective.
Whereas regarding newb buffs:
Originally posted by Carbonite
Its not an Exploit...
I will fully agree with Carinth when every class (not just APUs) gets tools/weapons that can 'legally' debuff a PPU or a PPU buffed player.
Shadow Dancer
05-12-03, 03:15
I wonder why noob buffing isn't considered an exploit. IF it's not an exploit, they should give ppus a way to debuff themselves.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I wonder why noob buffing isn't considered an exploit. IF it's not an exploit, they should give ppus a way to debuff themselves.
Oh stop crying exploit ffs.
Then give every single class in the game a way to debuff thier boosters because every now and then someone casts a pistol 1 boost on my monk.
Boo hoo im not gonna go cry about it.
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 06:08
Originally posted by g0rt
Oh stop crying exploit ffs.
Then give every single class in the game a way to debuff thier boosters because every now and then someone casts a pistol 1 boost on my monk.
Boo hoo im not gonna go cry about it.
You just don't get it do you? Does that pistol buff mean certain death to you? Does it stop you from using your holy lightning? Possibly make it to where you are useless to your team? NO....it's mearly a minor step back, and easily solvable by killing yourself and having a PPU rezz you.
Look, the fact is that higher TL spells should over-write lower TL spells.
I think we can all agree on that.
BUT until that happens, becuase clearly the GMs have indicated this is NOT an exploit, it is quit simply a tactic.
In the NFL, timeouts are intended to give a team extra time when they need it or to stop the clock. But teams take them right before a kicker is going to attempt a long field goal, in order to 'ice' the kicker.
Is that what timeouts were intended for? No. Are teams 'exploiting' the rules? No. Its a tactic, because... and only because... its allowed.
So given the extent a GM has said its NOT an exploit, the ONLY recourse is to whine your ass off and say its lame and to accept it as a tactic. Or, just accept it as a tactic without the whining. Whichever.
So in summary:
1. I agree higher TL spells should be able to be cast over lower TL ones.
2. I agree its a lame tactic to use.
3. I feel that its a tactic, not an exploit.
You all seem to forget, no one has EVER killed anyone else by healing them. The heal spell itself does not do damage.
And because of how the game works, the ONLY solution for this is to have the higher TL spells over-write the lower TL ones. You cant even begin to consider the idea of punishing someone that heals someone else if their target of the heal dies.
As far as I am conserned that is not an expliot, he used buffs, nothing wrong with that (even if he was buffing you), he was biotech, well even from a RP point he could be a TG infaltrating Biotech, I can't see what he has done wrong. Sure it is sad, but not explioting or wrong really.
Jesterthegreat
05-12-03, 15:14
out of curiosity is a PPU buffing me without my permission an exploit? how about someone healing my 0/2 noob? explaoit?
no?
then why would healing a high level char be an exploit? O_o
thats like saying that a hazard 3 reduces the effectiveness of my CS! omg you exploiter!
noob buffing is lame. it does suck. however no matter how many polls are made - carb has clearly stated that it is not an expoit. whining about it will only make you look like an ass - so i suggest stopping?
you have the official word - this thread is a wastte of space now. if i were a mod it would be closed
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
out of curiosity is a PPU buffing me without my permission an exploit?Exactly. And this is what is wrong with people calling this an exploit.
The act itself isnt lame, its only even lame 100% based on context. Afterall, the act is SIMPLY HEALING SOMEONE ELSE.
I dont know of too many other things that are an exploit only if the person doing the act INTENDED it to be.
Oh well. Lets hope they make higher TL spells over-write lower TL spells.
Jesterthegreat
05-12-03, 15:29
Originally posted by Strych9
Oh well. Lets hope they make higher TL spells over-write lower TL spells.
seconded
Nightbrother
05-12-03, 15:57
Couldn't this sort of thing be easily settled if higher TL spells overrides lower TL spells. So that a holy heal would replace a blessed one. It makes sense to me, since it was 'cast' by a person with superior mental skill and thus that person would have no problem negating a lower spell and replacing it with one high one of his own.
Another solution: Let personal spells replace those cast upon you by others. That doesn't make so much sense to me realistically, but it's a solution of sorts.
Edit: Someone else suggested this already. Bad Nightie, for not reading all pages of the thread. Someone slap me. Hard, plz.
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 16:01
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
then why would healing a high level char be an exploit? O_o
Because he was "fighting" me by healing my friend, then hiding behind faction and soul light losses to thwart getting killed. I never said it was a lame tactic. I've always agreed with noob buffing, and I'm a PPU (however it's gotten out of hand). The reason I believe in this particular case it's an exploit is there was nothing I could do to stop him from healing me aside from kill him. Had I killed him, I would have suffered SL and FS loss....had his team killed us, he would have suffered neither. THAT'S why (imo) I beleive what he was doing was an exploit.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
whining about it will only make you look like an ass - so i suggest stopping?
Why would you say I'm "whining"? I'm only stating facts, and trying to see the general community consecus....isn't that what the forum is for?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
you have the official word - this thread is a wastte of space now. if i were a mod it would be closed
We had the official word with hybrids, parashock, resserection, PSI shield, Aggie cellars.....etc. All of these were fixed, so it's not a waste of space now is it? kthxby.
you got your answer... any further whining about how you dont like its is a waste of time....
these are the rules... most ppl like it... now deal with it (tm)
Originally posted by ghandisfury
You just don't get it do you? Does that pistol buff mean certain death to you? Does it stop you from using your holy lightning? Possibly make it to where you are useless to your team? NO....it's mearly a minor step back, and easily solvable by killing yourself and having a PPU rezz you.
and a small short lived tl 3 heal is a major setback? o_O
jeebus get a gripp and deal with it
edit : oops, double post :\
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Because he was "fighting" me by healing my friend, then hiding behind faction and soul light losses to thwart getting killed. I never said it was a lame tactic. I've always agreed with noob buffing, and I'm a PPU (however it's gotten out of hand). The reason I believe in this particular case it's an exploit is there was nothing I could do to stop him from healing me aside from kill him. Had I killed him, I would have suffered SL and FS loss....had his team killed us, he would have suffered neither. THAT'S why (imo) I beleive what he was doing was an exploit. So it sounds like the only exploit then, in your mind, is that someone in your own faction was against you, and that you would be penalized for attacking someone in your own faction.
Since you state yourself you are for noob buffing, it seems you are for noob buffing then ONLY when it is done between players that are factional enemies?
Sorry, that REALLY doesnt carry much weight in terms of a complaint to me, especially if you are overall FOR noob buffing to begin with.
Allow me to break out some PvPer verbiage here:
"Neocron is a tough dark world, and things arent always gonna be easy."
If someone wants to betray their faction, then thats the breaks, too bad for you I guess. Maybe there needs to be an in-game way of handling traitors- but the simple fact that the buffer is of the same faction of you does NOT suddenly make this an exploit, where otherwise its just fine.
I really dont see how a TG noob buffing a CA is fine, but a TG noob buffing a TG is an exploit.
Its not an exploit because you CAN do something about it. You can attack him. Sometimes war gets ugly, and you have to take a SL hit.
How many times do I have to say the same thing? Punishment does not decide legality. Just because gm's aren't banning people, doesn't mean it's not illegal. You have to consider what is a valid use of gm's time and what they are capable of. It would be ridiculous to have them hunt after everyone who crap buffs. There are lots of bugs in Neocron, that have existed since beta even, has kk said anything about them? nope. Does that mean they are intended features of Neocron? no, they're pretty clearly bugs. KK has to prioritize their workload, small time offenses/bugs are put on the back burner.
For the umpteenth time, The spell itself is not an exploit, stop trying to say Healing someone is an exploit! Your use of the spell is an exploit though. You used heal with the intent to prevent the target from using their own heal. That's why I consider it an exploit, though sure it's not a very important one, it's not gamestopping or anything. Using deflector sanctum is the worst of these exploits, but even that one isn't very serious.
In regards to this specific situation, once again, the ppu receives no penalty for helping kill members of his own faction. Whereas the members of his faction will incur a penalty for killing the ppu. Thus the ppu can freely help tg, tt, anyone he wants to and help slaughter his fellow biotechs. Do I have to say this any simpler? Game punishes player A for doing action X. Game does not punish player B for doing action X. Thus player B is given an unfair advantage.
I'm feeling like a broken record, I've posted this now 4 times I believe in this thread. Are people simplying disregarding logic and going with whatever they want?
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Yes, I have read the entire thread. I also responded directly to your comment on the fourth reply to my thread....why didn't you answere my question? You're saying that this BT PE can assist in the death of his faction without suffering a SL/FS hit, and the only way for ME to deal with it is to kill him and suffer said consiquenses......and you're agreeing with this?
So if I would have died then he would have walked away with my belt and good soul light....and if we would have killed him (which is the only thing we could have done) then we would have had to do multiple missions to recover.........and it's not an exploit?
I'm sorry, does anybody have the official word on what is or isn't an exploit? Cause I'm a bit confused here. If it's not to much trouble carbonite, would you mind posting why it's NOT an exploit instead of just stating "it's not an exploit".....
i think Gotterdammerung already did....
Your little BT friend chose his strategy well. His healing of your friend un-nerved you enough that most of your attention was probably focused on worrying about your friend and the outcome (much the same way time & energy is wasted on a battlefield). His goal was to rattle you 2 enough so that they could get the upper hand. It didn't work this time but all he did was make a strategic choice about how he was going to fight you.
There are nothing in the rules that says that he isnt allowed to shoot you or vice versa...
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 18:53
Originally posted by Carinth
I'm feeling like a broken record, I've posted this now 4 times I believe in this thread. Are people simplying disregarding logic and going with whatever they want?
Yes....and it seems it's contagious.
Originally posted by Carbonite
i think Gotterdammerung already did....
Any chance it's Carbonite Bast?
Originally posted by Carbonite
There are nothing in the rules that says that he isnt allowed to shoot you or vice versa...
You're right, but how do you suppose I kill him without incurring the penalties set by game mechanics? How am I supposed to heal him to death? You still haven't answered the underlying question. Why is it fair for me to have to suffer consequences
of killing a Biotech runner that is trying to kill me, but the Biotech runner that is trying to kill me does not have to suffer the same consequences? After you answere that with legitimacy, you may close this thread.....and I don't mean "because" or "it's not an exploit" or "because such and such a mod already said so". KK needs to explain why one runner is offered an unfair advantage over another by hiding behind SL/FS penalties that he himself would not incur.
There are nothing in the rules that says that he isnt allowed to shoot you or vice versa...
Yeah fine he can 'shoot' but its the 'vice versa' that bothers the hell out of me cause in my opinion 'vice versa' means the opposite which would be 'not shoot' instead of heal you with the intent to restrict your ability to heal, you cant fit that into a roleplaying context and like people keep reminding us this is a MMORPG if only loosely. cause really it aint that Massive and theres fuck all Role Playing.
I'm really supprised KK are going along with this EXPLOIT but since you are I suppose I'll have to use it too so as not to be disadvantaged.
Remember kids KK says:
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - spam ]
scikar are you joking ? O_o
you want to tell me that imbalance = exploit ?! O_o
i played a hybrid for ages and suddenly i should quit playing my favorite char because he suddenly got boosted too much by KK ?
i never said he wasnt overpowerd ..instead i talked with ppl to find a solution how to solve the problem without totally destroying hybrids..
anyway ...im glad that ppl like YOU got us where we are now...monk o cron - the home of the overpowerd pure monks :lol:
.cy
Originally posted by Carinth
For the umpteenth time, The spell itself is not an exploit, stop trying to say Healing someone is an exploit! Your use of the spell is an exploit though. You used heal with the intent to prevent the target from using their own heal. We need clarification from you on this.
You are saying its use is an exploit, but ghandisfury says its use is an exploit ONLY if it is inside of the same faction, or allied factions... but that the actual noob buffing is fine.
So you are saying that all uses are an exploit, not just the odd political situation that ghandisfury is talking about, correct? I just want to make sure I get my responses sorted properly.
Now you say above that the problem is the intent. Do you NOT see how that makes it pretty damn tough to lable this an exploit? What if you and I are mobbing, and I cast a basic heal on you actually trying to heal you, but you had one higher you could have cast. Is that an exploit? If not, why? Because of my intent alone? What if you died because you couldnt holy heal yourself due to my basic heal, would it be any different? What if you got pissed about it, but my intent was pure? Would it even matter?
In regards to this specific situation, once again, the ppu receives no penalty for helping kill members of his own faction. Whereas the members of his faction will incur a penalty for killing the ppu. Thus the ppu can freely help tg, tt, anyone he wants to and help slaughter his fellow biotechs. Do I have to say this any simpler? Game punishes player A for doing action X. Game does not punish player B for doing action X. Thus player B is given an unfair advantage.Okay, here you talk about the same thing as ghandisfury.
So the exploit is the fact that someone "can help kill someone of their own faction without penalty." What about same faction members listening on faction chat and giving out information to the enemy? Or faction members visiting ops and doing recon for the enemy? Or even better, what if a TG PPU fully buffed a CA tank that was fighting a TG tank- is that the same thing??? After all, the PPU is "helping to kill someone of their own faction."
I really dont see how you can establish ANY sort of criteria on what makes this "wrong." People are allowed to be traitors, and kill their own kind, or help their own kind be killed.
Now, dealing with your specific analysis:
Game punishes player A for doing action X. Game does not punish player B for doing action X. Thus player B is given an unfair advantage.Now you here are assuming that the actions are the same. THEY ARE NOT... and you think others have a problem being logical? :rolleyes:
It should read like this:
Game punishes player A for killing player B. Game does not punish player B for noob buffing player A.
The two players are NOT doing the same action, by any definition. You are basically saying that attacking and killing a player is the same as healing them. Clearly, it is not. While you COULD argue that noob buffing and healing someone can perhaps lead to their death- it is not a necessary or guaranteed outcome. Heck, even in this EXACT example ghandisfury wasnt even killed! So what, now we should rule it an exploit based on theoretical possible outcomes?
Killing a player, and doing an action that MAY lead to a player death is not the same thing. That is the bottom line.
As was stated before, my PPU buffs your tank in the chaos caves, and your tank dies. How does the game tell that apart from a noob buffing done against a same faction runner? It cant. No way to tell them apart.
If thats unclear, take ghandisfury's situation, and have it so that the runner that did the noob buffing was actually on the side of ghandisfury, and only had the TL3 heal at his disposal. How do you tell THAT apart from the exploit you claim? Only way to tell it apart is intent, which is a bit beyond the scope of Neocron.
You don't consider a ppu who aides in a fight is participating in killing? Just because the ppu doesn't get his hands bloody, doesn't mean he didn't help kill someone. He should be responsible for the murder as the people who did it directly. I don't see how someone should be allowed to kill or help kill someone of their own faction without receiving a penalty. Soul Light is our penalty system, killing faction members incurs this. I am not saying what he's doing is wrong, it is a valid rp choice. What is wrong is that he suffers no penalty. How can it be legal to assist in a murder, but illegal to actualy do the murder?
Intent is indeed difficult to discern. That's why I don't expect anyone to get into trouble for using the crap spell exploit. As I said there are varying degrees of exploits and smaller ones are not punished due to impracticality. I am in noway saying we should stop doing this just cause it's an exploit. I just want to make it clear that this is not a tactic, not something the game endorses. Until they rewrite the defintion of Heal to include 'offensively used to prevent target from casting own heal' Then I consider it an exploit.
Originally posted by Strych9
So the exploit is the fact that someone "can help kill someone of their own faction without penalty." What about same faction members listening on faction chat and giving out information to the enemy? Or faction members visiting ops and doing recon for the enemy? Or even better, what if a TG PPU fully buffed a CA tank that was fighting a TG tank- is that the same thing??? After all, the PPU is "helping to kill someone of their own faction."
I really dont see how you can establish ANY sort of criteria on what makes this "wrong." People are allowed to be traitors, and kill their own kind, or help their own kind be killed.
I agree with Strych9 on this point. There are many ways to help an enemy runner kill a runner in your own faction. As he stated you could buff them, you can noob buff your own faction, or you could donate large sums of money to the enemy, poke them, or construct weapons for them.
Becoming a traitor to your own faction is part of the roleplaying aspect of the game and should be allowed. However, as a part of the game, it should be expanded and a system for the faction to remove traitors should be implemented.
Noob buffing is a separate issue from the faction sympathy / SL problem that ghandi is talking about IMHO. Noob buffing should be fixed by allowing high TL spells to overwrite lower TL spells.
Two relatively simple changes will eleviate any need for this entire 6 page discussion. KK lets get these changes on the test server. Its becoming obvious that a large percentage of the community wants them.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
You just don't get it do you? Does that pistol buff mean certain death to you? Does it stop you from using your holy lightning? Possibly make it to where you are useless to your team? NO....it's mearly a minor step back, and easily solvable by killing yourself and having a PPU rezz you.
A CS means certain death to my spy.
Does that make it an exploit for a tank to use a cs against my spy?
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 21:53
Originally posted by g0rt
A CS means certain death to my spy.
Does that make it an exploit for a tank to use a cs against my spy?
Is this ignorance intentional? Do you honestly think you just made a point?:rolleyes:
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Is this ignorance intentional? Do you honestly think you just made a point?:rolleyes:
Yea de did, everything in this game is considered an expliot I have seen dozens of expliot threads even though multi-times KK staff have said it is not an expliot.
He ridiculos post is just exagerateing this community expliot crys.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Is this ignorance intentional? Do you honestly think you just made a point?:rolleyes:
Haha. Just laughing at you thats all.
Keep crying exploit, its so pathetic it makes me laugh.
ghandisfury
05-12-03, 22:22
Originally posted by Strych9
If that's unclear, take ghandisfury's situation, and have it so that the runner that did the noob buffing was actually on the side of ghandisfury, and only had the TL3 heal at his disposal. How do you tell THAT apart from the exploit you claim? Only way to tell it apart is intent, which is a bit beyond the scope of Neocron.
First let me thank you for such a well thought out reply. However, I believe that your argument is flawed. Let me ask you this. If I go into the Pepper Park and poison somebody of my own faction then zone is this an exploit? By your definition you would need more relevant facts no? Did I zone to escape death? Did I zone accidentally? Did I zone intentionally but not to avoid SL/FS penalties? Or did I zone to escape the penalty that should have been imposed by game legalities? You see, none of the four questions are relevant for the simple fact that I tried to kill an allied runner, and by zoning (intentionally or not) I escaped what rightfully should have happened to me.
Originally posted by KimmyG
Yea de did, everything in this game is considered an exploit I have seen dozens of exploit threads even though multi-times KK staff have said it is not an exploit.
He ridiculous post is just exaggerating this community exploit cries.
I would think you would be hard pressed to find even three "exploit cries" that are recent.
Originally posted by g0rt
Haha. Just laughing at you that's all.
Keep crying exploit, its so pathetic it makes me laugh.
I'm not going to entertain your trolling with scruples.
I'm not going to entertain your trolling with scruples.
Meh. Not trolling, just sick and tired of seeing noobs like you crying exploit every time something doesn't go your way.
Whitestuff
05-12-03, 23:13
What the runner did was an exploit because he was in your faction. If he wants to fight TG enemies and be allied to TG then he should join TG, Crahn or the like.
I personally am sick of allies attacking my clan's OPs and helping our enemies. I ask you, why don't you join their faction. I am CA and have fought NExT and PP Runners at several OP battles where they were helping various TG and BD clans. This is where the RP comes in. If you are defecting from your faction, then do it. But as far as, "We are building an alliance with the TG." That's BS. RP to the storyline, that is why it is there. FA are doing it because we have fought them alot lately, but when a CM clan fights us, that's wrong IMO because, in terms of story, CA has hired CM to AID US against DoY, therefore they should RP as ALLIES to CA.
As far as n00b buffing: PPU n00b buffing is cool, but when you buff anyone else, that's a bit low because every other class besides PPU is perfectly killable even if they have PPU backup. The best way to fight a person with a PPU: Nail the other person as hard as you can, when the PPU is in mid heal/buff/boost smack the PPU. He has to run off and heal himself, while ur nailing the other guy again. Sure, it takes time and a little skill, but that's how I do it, and it works good for me. N00b buffing on the other hand, wins the battle faster (sometimes) but since the other classes are not anywhere near as invincable as a PPU, I say it is pretty dirty.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
owever, I believe that your argument is flawed. Let me ask you this. If I go into the Pepper Park and poison somebody of my own faction then zone is this an exploit? By your definition you would need more relevant facts no? Did I zone to escape death? Did I zone accidentally? Did I zone intentionally but not to avoid SL/FS penalties? Or did I zone to escape the penalty that should have been imposed by game legalities? You see, none of the four questions are relevant for the simple fact that I tried to kill an allied runner, and by zoning (intentionally or not) I escaped what rightfully should have happened to me. Two issues here:
1. Please do not compare poisoning a runner with healing a runner. A poisoning attack is explicitly removing life. Healing a running is explicitly giving life. In your situation, healing was only indirectly preventing better healing, which isnt the same as taking life directly away. This may be only a semantical difference, but its a difference nonetheless. In your example above, yes, you tried to kill someone because you took away life. A heal gives life.
2. I agree that IF someone dies, and you attacked them and then zone, your actions should cross zone lines.
In my mind that is not a contridiction to me because in the example above, you are talking about actually attacking someone, not healing them. There is NO question of intent with an attack. An attack is a hostile action, so no guessing is needed. And that is the KEY difference between the example above, and the original encounter that took place. If the guy had poisoned you instead of healing you, he would have been punished if you died. And in all of my counter examples- if attacks took place instead of heals, there would have been no question as to motive, and no hesitation as to what intent was.
Carinth said:
I don't see how someone should be allowed to kill or help kill someone of their own faction without receiving a penalty.The only problem is deciding what "helping to kill someone" means. For example:
1. A PPU noob buffing an ally
2. A PPU buffing an enemy
3. A PPU NOT healing an ally
4. A PPU not damage boosting an enemy
5. A PPU spying on an ally and reporting it to the enemy
6. A PPU simply deciding not to go along with an ally on a mob run in the caves, or deciding not to participate in an op war.
All of the above (and I just used PPU to keep it consistant, it applies to anyone though) in SOME way, in SOME degree 'help kill their own faction member."
Yet how can we decide which are worthy of punishment?
You can only tell the above apart by intent, and sadly, thats impossible to deal with.
Intent of attacks is clear. Intent of heals, or the intent on non-action is not clear.
Not saying I like it. Just saying thats how I see it.
Originally posted by WhiteKrAkRBOi
What the runner did was an exploit because he was in your faction.I think we hurt the game if we somehow MAKE all faction members behave within that faction. It is utterly impractical and unrealistic to say that as a TG runner I cannot fight other TG runners.
I DO agree that there should be some in game mechanism for stripping factional alliances of players that disavow their own faction. That would make sense in practical terms, and make sense in RP terms.
Players stabbing their own faction in the back should be removed from that faction via some RP mechanism, but doing so is not an "exploit." Everyone knows the realities of politics.
Gotterdammerung
06-12-03, 00:18
here is a quote from page #1
Originally posted by Carbonite
Its not an Exploit...
It has been made very clear that this isn't an exploit, no matter how bitter that information may be to some, again it is NOT AN EXPLOIT !!
This thread has degenerated into alot of name calling & trolling and since the original query was answered I'm closing this.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.