View Full Version : The death of Neocron?
After the closure of the other thread with a title similar to this,
theres just a few points I have to bring up.
If you think a game is dying because people that has been
playing for a year or several years for that matter, then you have
little to no understanding both when it comes to the mmorpg
business and the human psychology. When a mmorpg keeps
players for a year its good business for them, this is what they
AIM at doing. Suck money out of people for a while, then let them
move on, get other new players, rince and repeat.
The model for the time spent by the average mmorpg player
looks something like this
confusion <1 month
excitement 2-4 months
involvement 4 months to 2+ years
boredom 2-4 months
This does not mean that someone necesarily plays for a minimum
of 8 months, everyone doesnt always move on from one stage to
the next.
This is how online games have worked for almost two decades
now, there are scores of good books about how to develop
online games, how the budgeting works, how the designing
works. If you are going to spend so much time on the forums
talking about how KK arent using the money we give em for what
they should, or how KK arent balancing the game the right way
and how certain changes will cause everyone to leave and KK will
bankrupt ONOZ!! etc, theres a good chance that YOU dont have
enough understanding about what the hell you are talking about,
and should read up on the subject before making a fool out of
yourself yet again.
As I said, theres scores of books on the subject out there,
personally I recommend "Developing Online Games - An Insiders
Guide" by Jessica Mulligan and Bridgette Patrovsky, it covers
almost all angles that a beginner to the mmorpg industry would
need (and unless you have developed an online game thats what
you are at best, a beginner, this industry isnt like any other
industry in the world, just because you have developed a game
doesnt mean you have anywhere close the competence to make
a mmorpg).
*inhales*
Martin J. Schwiezer
02-12-03, 12:52
@Rade: Amen! to everything you said... :)
addendum - And no Im no fanboi of neocron, I think they did alot
of things wrong both when it comes to ingame things and how
they have handled a few things out of the game. But some of the
whines that pop up on these forums are just so clueless that it
makes my stomach turn. I dont assume that I know everything
about the car industry just because I drove a car once, so I dont
go bashing the way BMW does their business or, even worse, try
to discuss their business like in a manner that suggests that Im
some sort of expert. And Im pretty certain that pretty much none
of you do that either, so why the beep do you do it when it
comes to mmorpgs?
**edit: lookie, mjs is a rade fanboi :p
**edit2: Hm, I should add that reply to my sig, KK endorses
everything rade says, woohoo ;)
It's no use Rade, I've tried explaining to everyone about how hard it is as a Developer working on an MMO.
After I made a lengthy post, I got flamed for it.
I tried going over the patching process and certain deadlines that overlap and sometimes get run over when one person is not ready with their designated content.
After I spent all that time, making that post, which IMO made perfect sense and explained everything that people needed to know, I just got flamed for it, and Called a Fanboi :wtf:
It's useless, these people are just carnivores preying on the Developers that are KK. They won't stop until they see KK dead, bodies flying out the window.
I have a bit more faith in KK and MJS than that though, so I'm not gonna let em bring me down.
Fuck em, let em lie in their own stupidity :lol:
|EDIT| Hey MJS, you think you could PM me an E-mail addy I could reach you at? I'd like to talk with you about a few things. Sent ya a PM a LONG time ago, but I don't think you ever got it :p
Jesterthegreat
02-12-03, 12:56
lol i realise that i couldnt make a mmorpg anywhere near as good as NC, i personally cannot think of a single MMORPG that comes close to NC
however it is my opinion that this game is indeed dieing. MJS may say that the player base figures are leveled out... but how many of thos people log on regularly? this may be ok for MJS as, logon or not, he gets the monthly money. however how far are these people who have given up playing gonna keep paying for?
now. i am not gonna kid myself. the server populations are far from what they were earlier on in this game (IE 6 months ago). an MMORPG this far into life shouldnt be going this low.
oh and MJS if you are replying here - can we the runners advertise NC? will we be sued for paying for an NC banner on Gamespy etc?
Martin J. Schwiezer
02-12-03, 13:00
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
oh and MJS if you are replying here - can we the runners advertise NC? will we be sued for paying for an NC banner on Gamespy etc? LOL ... no, for as long as you use the original banner and as it is displayed on a legally okay website, we won't have a problem with it.
Jesterthegreat
02-12-03, 13:01
what about the player made ones that won that competition etc... (obv i assume i need the creators 'ok' too)
or making our own advertising NC..
i dont wanna be sued for using your interlectual property :p
MJS, i dont think u read ur PMs, and you have blocked your mail....so im gonna ask you right here..
some patches ago, when u changed everything to serverside....i think
i got a problem with NC :p
every zone i enter....i get blacksync....
and the "failed to join proxy server" trouble to....
are u guys looking in to it? =)
my account is currently inactive because of this reason.....and 4 others have cancelled their accounts because i left...
and i suspect many left for the same reason as i...
SO HELP US!!
and btw, where is the banners that won the competition? =))
ok i realise my trial account thread is bitching but i agree with almost all your points, problem is KK are still missmanageing themsevles to an outside observer, since like you say this product seems to be in its death period, server populations are decreaesing, other mmorpgs are takeing focus away like FFXI and soon to be WoW, subscriptions will bleed away like a wound that wont close unless they get their asses in gear.
Shadow Dancer
02-12-03, 13:09
Oh no, MJ gave kudos to Rade. Like Rade actually needed a bigger ego........:(
Anyways I agree for the most part with Rade(bah), but the thing is, I really don't think NC is pulling in that many new players. I mean, wouldn't we have seen them? I can't remember the last time I saw a NEW player(new player, not new char) on pluto. Sure maybe I missed 1-2, but c'mon..........O_o
A MMORPG have to renew itself from time to time in order to get a
new influx of customers, the current playerbase has kept the
game going financially so far. DoY is exactly the sort of
revitalization that NC needs to get a new push of players, in
order to maintain the same amount of players a MMORPG has to
do something like that more or less every year. NC however is
NOT a big MMORPG, you cant compare the amount of players with
big hits like DaoC which has a 6 digit playerbase compared to
NCs 5 digits. As long as we stay stable on this amount of players
and dont drop lower the game will live. The fact that NC isnt as
big as DaoC isnt necesarily a failure for KK, the fact that there are
so much fewer players also means that there are alot lower
expenses in terms of bandwidth, server costs, customer support,
etc. NC is simply a smaller size mmorpg all across, this doesnt
mean that KK is not making a big profit, Im not saying that they
are, but they could, of course they want more customers but that
also means more expenses. Now, there have been a lack of new
players lately, yes, every MMORPG has that, NC and DaoC (Im
just using DaoC as an example thoughout this thread because its
a good example of a fairly new succesfull mmorpg) probably has
about the same percentage of players quitting and joining, with
the exception DaoC has when it releases expansions, which NC
hasnt done yet.
Oh yeah SD, my ego reached a size where it doesnt really cant
get bigger a long time ago, its a space issue.
Jesterthegreat
02-12-03, 13:37
yeah NC cant be compared with DAoC an any way imho.
its a different genre - DAoC is a glorified turn based game (dont flame me... i played it for years and still play it occasionally) where NC is a real time MMORPG / MMOFPS.
iirc this is also Reakktor's first ever MMORPG - they have no big backing - they are going out to make the best game they can. and props to them for it. when i started playing NC i dont think i had ever liked a game more. but the bugs get to you. the lack of content gets to you. the lack of players (deny it all you like... the player base is not as it was months ago) gets to you.
i think its time to introduce some changes. imho this game does need revitalising / saving... and i think the community could give some good ideas how to do it. obviously i am not saying implement whatever we say... half the community are idiots :p however please do take our suggestion onboard
ive seen a few noobs about, so there are new players coming in, not sure what the ratio to people leaving to joining is though.
and why would KK need new people when you have all those people playing on the mule server known as pluto with there many accounts:p
some of those people need neocrack councilling.
the games far from dead, just when you see you own clan disapear seemingly over night, its hard not to do the doom and gloom act:D
Lord Mansion
02-12-03, 14:21
I agree with Rade on most of her points.
The only thing that kind of irritates me is the lack of communication between KK and their clients. Ofcourse, some issues should not be discussed with customers, but many valid questions remain unanswered.
Communicating with clients is one of the most important factors in running a succesfull business. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.
Originally posted by Lord Mansion
The only thing that kind of irritates me is the lack of communication between KK and their clients. Ofcourse, some issues should not be discussed with customers, but many valid questions remain unanswered.
Yes, and SOE communicates way better with their clients. Hell, their CEO even pops by forums and chats with clients on a regular daily basis. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Oh no, MJ gave kudos to Rade. Like Rade actually needed a bigger ego........:(
Anyways I agree for the most part with Rade(bah), but the thing is, I really don't think NC is pulling in that many new players. I mean, wouldn't we have seen them? I can't remember the last time I saw a NEW player(new player, not new char) on pluto. Sure maybe I missed 1-2, but c'mon..........O_o
Seen a REAL: new guy last night. Been levelling in the same areas with him the last couple of days and he actually asked me last night.."What is MB?"
I was shocked. I told him.. "Military base, didnt you know that?"
"No, where is it?" he replied...
I was stunned to say the least, a genuine new guy to NC... First I seen personally that wasnt a reroll in a long long time.
I escorted him to the outzone station and pointed him in the right direction. He died to a warbot on the way there though. I warned him, but he decided to attack one anyways. Seems he was quite happy for the experience though, I'll give him a lift out there tonight if he still needs it (now that i can drive my little red car again :D). If you see *OmEgA*666 in pluto, be nice, he's new ;)
Jesterthegreat
02-12-03, 14:35
elric? you helped omega? yeah hes a new player... check out his posts in newbie forum... they crack me up :D
Omega666's first experience of Neocron (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83048) :)
Originally posted by Elric
I'll give him a lift out there tonight if he still needs it (now that i can drive my little red car again :D). If you see *OmEgA*666 in pluto, be nice, he's new ;)
Yea if you really want to keep a newbie in, take them for a spin in the sports car from NC to MB and take them via Gab Mine. Very awe inspiring for a lot of them.
lol, just read them and replied, Absolute classics.. :lol:
I dont like it there cos it dont have naked dancers!! That has to be the funiiest thing I'd read here in ages.
I feel bad about not being able to give him that run out to MB last night now though. But when the wife is ... erm... nm... anyways... you dont ignore her :D
He's a PE on Pluto now which is a good thing since my most recent experience (other than spy, which is most extensive) was a PE, Hopefully I can point him in thje right directions.
Originally posted by Archeus
Yea if you really want to keep a newbie in, take them for a spin in the sports car from NC to MB and take them via Gab Mine. Very awe inspiring for a lot of them.
Thanks for route advice, I was trying to think of the best ways to go. Probably nip By TH too tho, I need to go there for some stuff too.
Lord Mansion
02-12-03, 15:06
Originally posted by LVirus
Yes, and SOE communicates way better with their clients. Hell, their CEO even pops by forums and chats with clients on a regular daily basis. :rolleyes:
I was talking about a different form of communication, I thought that was obvious.
Casual "chatting" is a little different.
Most of what rade spelled out isnt just related to MMORPG's, it's basic economics and common sense.
Studying models for online communities is still in its infancy, and thesis / studies and literature on the subject is often sketchy at best.
Most of it written as proof for something tangible that sponsors can benchmark by so they aren't worried about pouring cash into a black 'zero-turnover' hole.
Even with more and more college and university courses springing up which deal with this, it will still be at least another 10 years until decent trends can start being plotted and semi-set in stone.
I think in the next few years, especially with the advent of console users joining the online market in a big way - that more and more companies will be wanting a slice of the pie, so customer focus and longevity will become more of a focus.
Due to competition, most companies will be forced into this, and customer service will become an edge to excel in.
But with the state of play at the moment - with so few of each gamestyle and type (especially in the mmofps/rpg category) the game content is enough to hold the target audience enthralled.
juvestar15
02-12-03, 15:47
hmm maybe Nidhogg can help me out here.
What's the rule where you can't open a new thread discussing something that was previous closed in another thread?
Originally posted by juvestar15
hmm maybe Nidhogg can help me out here.
What's the rule where you can't open a new thread discussing something that was previous closed in another thread?
good question.. waiting on a reply PM from him.. im kinda worried about it.
Jesterthegreat
02-12-03, 15:58
preivious thread was closed as it stated neocrons death as a fact. this is mearly somewhere where we can post our opinions without flaming anyone. if you dont wish to join in then please dont.
we are posting opinions / suggestions here... no need to try to get it closed O_o
Originally posted by juvestar15
hmm maybe Nidhogg can help me out here.
What's the rule where you can't open a new thread discussing something that was previous closed in another thread?
If you read that thread it was closed becasue the title was wrong.. a ! instead of a ? So thats a big diffrence
Right!
Right?
Originally posted by Archeus
Yea if you really want to keep a newbie in, take them for a spin in the sports car from NC to MB and take them via Gab Mine. Very awe inspiring for a lot of them.
I (v sadly :() cannot remember who, but someone actually did that for me, so I could get a rocket launcher for my PE :D
I was like 'oh no , we arent going to meet any warbots on the way are we ?'
I saw my first warbot that day lol, he drove me rite up to it and I was scared as hell lol
Rade - nice post. I'll go hunting for the book you recommend.
But...
Naive point here, but did MJS just applaud the idea that NC is *designed* to be interesting for 6 months and that then capped players are expected to quit (indeed it's in the business model).
In which case - it seems odd to me why we all are waiting for DOY etc. - so perhaps a time to think seriously about cancelling.
JP
I think your scope is rather small. Mmorpg's usualy have much longer lifespans then other games. I don't think it's unreasonable to keep players interested in your game for a year or more. Holding onto long term players is money in the bank, these players improve the community and usualy bring in new players. I'm sure there are proly people that have played Everquest for 2 years or more, I don't recall exactly how old EQ is.. Ultima Online is still alive isn't it? Previous to Neocron I used to play a MUD, which I was thoroughly addicted too. I spent a good 6 or so years of my life playing on that Mud and later admining on it. Yet even while I was an admin, I kept an active player account.
If however you assume your game is not interesting enough to hold players more then say, 6 months. Then you need an extremely robust advertising campain, which eclipses the negative word of mouth you'll have. At any given time, the number of ex players will outnumber how many players you have. So you can't count on positive word of mouth.
Neocron's player population arrived here from one of three reasons. The majority of our player base was here for the betas, in which we were thoroughly addicted early on. The extreme positive word of mouth generated by these beta players then brought in a good number of new players for retail. The last group stumbled on Neocron through some web mmorpg listing. Since then word of mouth and web listings have brought in some new players, but not nearly as many as we are losing. The core playerbase of beta players are evaporating as they turn to greener pastures. Sure you could say that holding these players for over a year is a great acomplishment and leave it at that. Why settle for just a year though? These are your most commited/fanboy/addicted players, it shouldn't be that hard to keep them around. If you can't hold that crowd, how can you hope to hold others for any length of time?
Its inevitable, Neocron will die one day. By that time, perhaps there will be a Neocron 2.
Who knows, maybe Neocron 1 will take place only on Earth, Where after the release of DoY, Tokyo II will be in the works, after Tokyo II, Neocron lives on for a little longer, but an anouncement stating that Neocron 2 is in the works.
Neocron 2 would consist of everything there is now, but an updated Graphics Engine, larger world, Explore Space (Mars, Irata III), etc..
This is all speculation.
But face it people, Neocron will die, its only a matter of time.
What makes a good MMORPG is its ability to keep players playing for such a long time.
EverQuest, many players still play it because its an interesting game. I never played it but many that do enjoy it and still play it to this day after how many years? 2 years? I dont really know.
Quake II, an old game, many still play it, why is it around still? Its a fun game and theres so many mods for it.
Same with Quake III, and even Quake.
Same goes for Unreal Tournament.
Games live and die.
Neocron will live, then die.
After which perhaps there will be Neocron 2.
I'm sure if all goes well KK will consider making a Neocron 2.
Even more so, we dont know what DoY will consist of, we dont know what the publisher has planned for the game when everything is finally sorted out. We just dont know. DoY could simply be a few new weapons, mobs, new zones to explore and thats it. But for a we know, it could contain our long awaited aircraft vehicles, new Power Armors, new factions (which I believe they stated), new ways that factions interact, a new trade system, new ways Outpost Wars work.
We really dont know do we?
was it my imagination or was this thread closed for a moment? :)
Holding onto long term players is money in the bank, these players improve the community and usualy bring in new players.
I always thought holding onto the long term players while not making them play was the real way to go. :) I thought UO having you refresh your houses was a stroke of genius and making cash. I could remember numerous players who stopped playing but still kept thier accounts open and refreshed every week rather then loose a year or so worth of crap.
It does go without saying that rentention is better then regular turnover of players, as long as that retention doesn't inflict major overheads. The more people playing on the server at a given time doesn't equate to the most profit.
Why settle for just a year though? These are your most commited/fanboy/addicted players,
I don't think BETA players are. For the most part BETA tends to get a migration following ("Dude I was in Beta for game X, Y, Z now I'm going to another!"). No overly intrest in the game except to be first or play a game for free.
Then you have the "We are the chosen ones" beta players. The ones that think that the company needs to get down on its knees and kiss thier feet for helping them out. Or start looking for favours/respect from newer players. What irks me with this is, these are also tend to be the people who scream "OMG U RUINED THE GAME WITH THE LATEST PATCH BETA WAS SO COOL U SOBS PUT IT BACK!!".
My 10 cents:
I don't want to work for a year to be washed away in the rince process. But maybe this is an inevitability. It probably is an impossibility to keep X amount of players happy for X amount of time.
I don't have any plans of moving on personally but there is some new stuff just over the hill I want to try, and not all of it is online. It really does make you think about the life you live in Neocron. Should it be treated as an experience for everyone to enjoy once? Simple answer is... No. People keep coming back and re-activating their accounts, especially of late I've noticed.
There are only a few gaming reasons to leave Neocron IMO:
1. Boredom (Been there done that).
2. Loss of Inventory (Items accidentaly wiped).
3. Server imbalance (No point taking a hiding every day)
There's prolly a few more. None of the examples I've listed couldn't be remedied by shelving the game for a few months and coming back to start again or rebuild.
Boredom and Server Imbalance is preying on my Neo-gaming as we speak. Some nights I log in to log out, others I get pissed off when I'm killed for no reason just cos I'm red and dont have enough allies with me. But every so often I get a fresh impoetus to get cracking and really get my teeth into this MMORPG. But like they say... "All good things..."
I've never once said i'm leaving this game.
I've played since Beta 4.
I'm beginning to believe that one day I will have to leave Neo for good. No matter how much I try not to.
I'm sorry to say that if I went, Neither KK or the community would miss me.
Business seems to be much colder and much harder on the internet.
Originally posted by Lord Mansion
I was talking about a different form of communication, I thought that was obvious.
Casual "chatting" is a little different.
Actually if you check his posts with the search option, you'd see that alot of times he has answered specific questions on issues.
I've yet to see any other CEO do that.
8|
Hell, I've yet to even see GM's, QA, and Devs talk openly with people and use their ideas in many other games either.
Naive point here, but did MJS just applaud the idea that NC is *designed* to be interesting for 6 months and that then capped players are expected to quit (indeed it's in the business model).
I'd rather quit a game I enjoyed for a period than continue paying for bullshit reasons which aggravate me, ala UO.
No game can be interesting for LONG periods of time, Replayability? Maybe, but playing it day in and out for months? No.
I said it on the other dying thread, and another spoof thread...
People leaving a game in bulk is nothing new, the simple reason it's noticable here is we don't have a large (do we even have a) new player influx(?).
If we did, we wouldn't be having convo's about people leaving because frankly, no one would care.
Load_HeavyLoad
02-12-03, 19:34
Originally Posted By Rade
A MMORPG have to renew itself from time to time in order to get a
new influx of customers, the current playerbase has kept the
game going financially so far. DoY is exactly the sort of
revitalization that NC needs to get a new push of players
This Is So True But The Terrible Thing is Where is DoY, KK need to really get their asses in gear to get a publisher and release it because there is a positive chain with the release of DoY.
Here it is;
DoY----------> New People ---------> More Money ----------> Better Hardware/More money to pay for new Jobs + Advertising ---------> More People Returning to the Game Having Quit --------> (For KK Staff) More Bling-Bling And Rolexes :p
Originally posted by Load_HeavyLoad
This Is So True But The Terrible Thing is Where is DoY, KK need to really get their asses in gear to get a publisher and release it because there is a positive chain with the release of DoY.
Here it is;
DoY----------> New People ---------> More Money ----------> Better Hardware/More money to pay for new Jobs + Advertising ---------> More People Returning to the Game Having Quit --------> (For KK Staff) More Bling-Bling And Rolexes :p
... I honestly think MJS and the folks at reakktor know that already.
O_o
Archeus - Those that were just in it for a free game either got addicted and payed for retail or left for another beta. For me and many others, Neocron's beta was prolly the most sucessful advertising compain ever : ) We got to play for free and get a taste of how Neocron would be like in retail. There's no need to go into comparisons of beta vs retail vs now. My point is that the nc beta hooked the majority of testers into paying for retail. If the beta had not been open, I seriously doubt Neocron would have made it very far. Word of mouth was all that we had going for us. Sure lots of beta players have since left because the game has changed drasticly, but lots still remained. To put it in perspective, the beta players started the fire and then tossed gasoline in the mix when retail came out. You had lots of rabid ex beta players who had been missing their neocrack fix. Nearly as many new players popped up for retail to get their first taste of neocrack. This group should be the easiest to hold onto really. The equivalant would be for SWG to lose all of the Star Wars Fans. If you manage to lose those most interested in your game, then maybe it's time to think about what you're doing.
Marx - Just because your attention span doesn't last long enough to allow you to play a game for more then 6 months, doesn't mean others do aswell. UO has held players for several years, EQ has held people for at least two years. Neocron has managed to hold some of us for over a year now. Counterstrike has held people for many years now. I played a MUD for over 6 years, with no quitting and coming back. I was apart of a Quakeworld TF Clan for almost two years.
So no, it is completely possible for games to hold people for longer then 6 months. I would go so far as to say it's the mark of a truely great game. Much like the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith or Madonna in the music industry. They're able to reinvent themselves and maintain popularity despite trends or changes. Staying power is where it's at.
Ive been playing without letup since beta4...and im not bored...its kinda opposite for me in mmorpgs, the more characters I build and the more items I collect, the more I want to stick with the game.
I doubt ill ever quit Neocron.
JackScratch
02-12-03, 20:14
My hat is off to MJS for saying so elequently what I could not. You make a few random observations and decide it has meaning like a witch looking at entrails. These posts and all like them are negative publicity, that, were I the owner of this company I wouldn't even allow, however KK in their infinite wisdom have seen fit to allow it, in the interest of freedom I suppose. You decide for some arbitrary reason you don't like something, so you declare it a problem of epic proportions, the "death of the game". this is patently untrue, yet a semi self fulfilling prophecy. It is bad publicity, which does hurt the game.
Marx - Just because your attention span doesn't last long enough to allow you to play a game for more then 6 months, doesn't mean others do aswell. UO has held players for several years
UO kept people by doing nefarious things - I techically still have a UO account so as I won't lose my villa on Pacific after I lost my tower on Atlantic... Do I play? Not much.
EQ has held people for at least two years.
Because they drop expansions the same way cicadas' drop skin.
Neocron has kept players
Yes, it's kept players through its semi-dynamic enviroment, but it doesn't change the fact that for every hardcore mmo gamer, there's like 10 who aren't as enthralled.
People leaving these games for something else is nothing new, nothing earth shattering. The lack of new players coming in Is.
We go through this phase every time another game comes up to beta - Neocron is not going to die any time soon. o_O
Any more "doom-sayer" threads from now on will be closed on sight because they simply do not add anything even remotely constructive to the community.
N
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