View Full Version : Should SL be ditched?
Yes, No, abstain.
Vote, kthx.
mods, please close this (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=1079697#post1079697)
Read this before voting, courtesy of Psycho Killa.
In my mind soullight should be dithed. Though instead if you shoot someone in your faction or allied faction you will lose a decent amount of sympathy with your faction. If you lose to much sympathy in your faction your guards will shoot you. If you loose to much sympathy in your own faction and your pro city admin copbots will kos u if your faction sympathy gets too low with your own sympathy.
Also an increase in security guards in strategic places around the city. Such as an increase of black dragon and tsunami in there respectively controlled areas. (Getting a bit off topic it would be cool if u where bd or tsunami and could earn control of a section of bd or tsunami to spawn a couple guards in that area) Also added diamond guards in and around the diamond dealers etc. You get the idea.
KramerTheWeird
29-11-03, 03:18
No, there should be more chances to lose SL then there are now. Not because I hate pk'ers, but because everyone runs away to do missions as soon as they get red. If it happened more often they would either not pk at all or just live with it.
I think things should be more reliant on faction sympathy, SL is just a hinderance imo.
KramerTheWeird
29-11-03, 03:21
Well if faction RP did come into play and there was some sort of player dedication to the whole concept, I'd agree FS should be more important, if not, replace SL. But as it is now, no one cares what faction you're in, as it has no meaning in the first place except to see who is red/yellow/green.
yes but the carebears will cry so hard and long that it wont happen
its a shame
ive been saying ditch soullight forever now....it does nothing but waste peoples time...but the pansies just flame me for thinking it so what can you do
KramerTheWeird
29-11-03, 03:24
red SL is SEXY!
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 03:25
Yes but u should explain more or people would vote no.
I would vote no myself if u didnt explain more.
In my mind soullight should be ditched. Though instead if you shoot someone in your faction or allied faction you will lose a decent amount of sympathy with your faction. If you lose to much sympathy in your faction your guards will shoot you. If you loose to much sympathy in your own faction and your pro city admin copbots will kos u if your faction sympathy gets too low with your own sympathy. (Anti city admin will already be kos to cops)
Also an increase in security guards in strategic places around the city. Such as an increase of black dragon and tsunami in there respectively controlled areas. (Getting a bit off topic it would be cool if u where bd or tsunami and could earn control of a section of bd or tsunami to spawn a couple guards in that area) Also added diamond guards in and around the diamond dealers etc. You get the idea.
There should also be an increase in reason to hang around your faction headquarters. This will increase interaction between faction members possibly leading to more organized clans or atleast interaction between them along with giving a good reason to not want low faction sympathy.
Additional changes:
As they have done on the test server up the faction guards so only a team could stand up to them. Copbots should be marginaly stronger then faction guards.
Make it so a lone idiot will fear guards but a decent team will still have the ability to siege faction hqs or make strategical strikes on the city. There should be an increase in copbots in plaza 1 area to protect tradeskillers.
The sewers and main sewers should connect to eachother so that criminals can seek shelter down there and they should be connected to outzone where criminals can get apartments if they so choose to be an outlaw.
No safe zones.
Copbots should not respawn for a few minutes. Though a warning should be let off that the city is under attack and what zone the intruders are in. This will allow people to defend the city. If you kill all the intruders there should be a terminal to hack that will return the citys defenses (call in reinforcement copbots to fill the zone back)
Though this is getting a bit more like an overhaul then an idea :)
I think that it will greatly increase the fun factor and bond between faction members.
KramerTheWeird
29-11-03, 03:36
It will also be nice if a faction was hired to take you out, like all of a sudden 3 npc's pop outof nowhere to attack just you, that'd be fun. Or, having faction npc's that aren't guards, but are kinda like runners, and have various weapons and are varied classes..
/me stops talking about hopless things now.
Shadow Dancer
29-11-03, 03:39
Make Red sl more "viable". Being a PK in this game is like being a melee spy. It just isn't realistic. :p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Make Red sl more "viable". Being a PK in this game is like being a melee spy. It just isn't realistic. :p
Now theres the truth.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 03:48
Im tempted to turn one of my players into a homicidal maniac and killing anyone and everyone.
From what i read when i started the game it was suppose to be possible to be an evil killer though u would be banished to the wastelands/ pp/ outzone and any carebears would be able to stay in the city in safety.
Instead of that kramer it would be nice if people could be hired to kill people easier. Tracking people should be viable say for law abiding citizens the citycom (with a hack) will tell you the zone they where in maybe 7 to 10 minutes ago.(depending on hack skill) People flagged as criminals by there own faction should be trackable between 2 and 4 minutes. This way a hacker can position himself at a citycom as he relays to his team members the last known position.
Screw SL. A common value to show how "evil" or "good" you are? lol
KK introduced a good-evil-value for factions. Nice. Unfortunately its used to gank everyone of enemy factions (red = dead).
Personally I think the common SL value should be removed. Secondly, you start out with neutral values to every faction. At least I havent heard of/seen any sign which really depicts you as one runner of a certain faction. If you kill a runner of faction A, you get a drop of the faction-sympathy of faction A. Additionally certain regions/zones are more or less strongly bound to a certain faction. So you get a minor drop in that faction too (depending how strong the zone is bound to that faction; no society works without rules and killing others normally has some serious impact in one way or another). NPCs are assigned to one of the factions and start to shoot you if you are below a certain sympathy value. And you slowly regain sympathy to the default value. Additionally I would make the faction guards real toughies. A problem I still don't know how to solve is the drop of weapons regarding the loss of the safeslot. Add to that some real strong faction guards.
The target frame of another player is colored according to the faction sympathy of your "home" faction. Killing players with a red target frame results in no sympathy loss towards the "home" faction of the "red" runner, although you may loose some sympathy with the controlling faction (you killed one anyway).
Well, I still have to spend some more time into this, but it already shows an outline and a general direction of how I would solve this faction-SL-stuff. Naturally, OP-Zones should be free of this (and no belt drop).
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 03:56
Wtf the votes not going well already. I bet half the people who voted no didnt even read any of the ideas before they voted no. If not I would like to see a legitimate excuse why sl shouldnt be dropped in favor of an enhanced faction sympathy system.
SL sucks screws the RP and noone can fear anything..... kill 3 runners and you need to do mission until your account expire :rolleyes:
The soullight system stops those from openly killing faction members and neutral members.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 04:55
Zanathos please read the thread. You would still suffer penalties for killing allied or neutral runners.
SL should be fixed, not removed. The system has been bugged since forever and KK seems to think it's fine (Just like MJS seems to think that people only get 1 FRE every 24 hours at worst). Removing the SL system will just turn this game into an even bigger gank-fest than it currently is. And you know what, that will kill any remaining RP'ers and honestly I would rather PvP in Halo or Quake3 or something that does it about 500 times better than Neocron. (*woot* Gloom is finally being remade for Quake3. My favorite Q2 mod ever).
The only way I can see abolishing the SL system would work is if there were the following changes/conditions:
1) Server populations and faction populations were raised considerably (That way there would always be some high level members of a faction to protect faction newbies from being ganked).
2) Mob spawn was fixed everywhere!
Neocron: In Neocron you can get through the newbie levels, but once you pass that. You need to leave the city to level further. Storage Halls in Ind: A just don't have a fast enough spawn to be able to level anywhere close to a decent rate.
Tech Haven: In TH you can level pretty decently in all the cores since they have a wide range of mobs available for slaughter, the only problem is they always end up behind a locked door. So you need to be able to hack or have a hacker with you to level. (Rather annoying).
Military Base: Don't even dream about leveling here at low levels. Going into the newbie leveling areas you will be lucky if you inspect 2 of them and find 3 2/2 spiders in both of those combined. And there's still the problem of hacking those doors. Though they do have the best mid-level spawn mobs in form of cyclopses at the bunker and Warbots.
Canyon: Very decent at low levels. But again, nothing to slaughter in mid-levels. Forcing you to put in an LE and going to some place like MB to level.
3) City feuds and security were fixed. The city has far too many enemy warring factions within it. BD vs. almost everyone (But that is at least somewhat making sense. The criminal element. But there should be precedent for copbots, law enforcers to arrest/execute them on sight). Same goes for TS. TT vs. BT, yes they are enemies, but they should still be somewhat civilized. If SL is removed, you'd need some way for BT AND TT newbies to level safely within city limits. A good solution for this one would be implementing "Training Zones" within each of the city HQs (I mean, all non-city factions have those. Why not city factions?)
Most of these would have to wait until DoY is out anyway. Until then I voted "no".
Anyway, that's all I can think of at the moment. If I come up with more, I'll post/edit...
Edit:
oops forgot (4)
4) If your own faction sympathy drops drops below 30 (I think that's a good value). You are no longer able to remain in a clan. (You'd need to raise FS to be re-admitted into clan). If your FS drops below 0, you are no longer eligible to be in the faction and become factionless. You will have to raise FS properly (to 50) and pay the 300k again if you wish to rejoin the faction you left. And would have it even harder to join another faction. (After all, you just backstabbed your old faction. Why should a new faction accept you and not expect you to do the same to them? 300k is not sufficiet for that.) Also, I think factionless runners should be KOS to everyone (red to everyone) not green to everyone. After all, they have backstabbed their own faction and are no longer under the protection of that faction.
I think that soullte is just a serious nuisance......
first off there are times in big battles where you might accidentally hit someone who is allied to you, and then that person dies and bam negative soulite.....oh unless youre teamed....but be careful....being able to kill a allied faction without taking a SL hit in a non warzone might be labeled as an exploit someday.........
other times you get people who eventually do get red SL below 16....now correct me if Im wrong, but i dont doubt since you can shoot other people in this game that it was meant to be a PvP game.....and hell it is a roleplaying game at that.....and in real life chances are...friendly or not, some dude talking trash is gonna get his ass beat.....well thats how it is "in game" yet this soulite system stringly contradicts any PvP/RP scenario.....and on top of that they make warzones where you dont lose SL anyways, and then you got hunting grounds where you cant even kill enemy factions without taking a SL hit
its just fucking stupid.....
but hey at least if youre gonna have something like soulite implemented ffs make it so like it was where you dont only get +1 soulite per mission....alot of us who pay to play only get so much time to play, and well in some cases i maybe got less than an hour to play, thats no time to hunt...not even close to being time to lvl...but yes its definitely time to get some good PvPing in....but fuck wait i got -20 soulite and i cant get to the city where is basically the only place to get good missions...so no, i have to spend the only fucking hour of the day i have to play logged on sitting in my fucking apartment............
Originally posted by extract
but hey at least if youre gonna have something like soulite implemented ffs make it so like it was where you dont only get +1 soulite per mission....alot of us who pay to play only get so much time to play, and well in some cases i maybe got less than an hour to play, thats no time to hunt...not even close to being time to lvl...but yes its definitely time to get some good PvPing in....but fuck wait i got -20 soulite and i cant get to the city where is basically the only place to get good missions...so no, i have to spend the only fucking hour of the day i have to play logged on sitting in my fucking apartment............
You shouldn't be complaining. If you didn't spend your 1 hour the day before ganking everyone you came across, you wouldn't have had this problem the next day. You know, you can't have it both ways. Either don't PK, or take the consequences. Remove consequences from PvP and you get a really shitty Quake.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 05:43
I still dont think it will be a gankfest if faction sympathys where more important.
Anyone who ganked people left and right outside of there enemy list would be subject to being banned from the inner city limits of neocron. They would be able to roam pp and outzone along with the wastelands of course.
This makes it so it is possible to be a wanker ass ganker but u will not be able to go to plaza or viarrosa and will be forced to have tradeskilers to come to you which will take alot of convincing (Paying large amounts of money)
Originally posted by Lareolan
You shouldn't be complaining. If you didn't spend your 1 hour the day before ganking everyone you came across, you wouldn't have had this problem the next day. You know, you can't have it both ways. Either don't PK, or take the consequences. Remove consequences from PvP and you get a really shitty Quake.
well then this wouldnt be called a MMORPG would it....after all people really dont kill innocent people in real life do they???
I just dont think soulite is the answer to ganking.....and at least if they do keep it make it so that you can reasonably gain it back....i mean how the hell am i gonna do aggressor missions to get SL back if plaza is surrounded by copbots....
and just for the record, Im not some ganking asshole who goes around killing people...but on occasion i do shoot someone who eventually goes on and dies, matter of fact 90% of the time most of my chars SL is above 50-70....90 on my PPU....
or what about the poor APU or tank who all they want to do is go and level in the caves....but alas everyone in there is dicks and wont team him....should he relinquish his right to be there just cause they wont team, goes on to use an AOE weapon does like 5 DMG to someone on other team and BAM....creeper kills that guy....I like too many others have had the same problem, its just not right.....after all was it his intention to cause harm to that person? no...it wasnt yet he pays for it anyways even tho he didnt deal that fatal blow, so please dont even begin to preach to me about consequences....because too many others will agree that they are horseshit.....
I do agree there should be some consequence when just outright ganking people...but hey its like that in real life, women get raped...people get mugged, and shopkeepers get killed...some people get caught some dont, but one thing we all can expect...is a fucking SL loss
no
you people don't remember what it was like before
however -----------------
if they can keep track of my stray shots and take away 50 SL points when a mob kills someone that I accidentily tagged ------ well then they can track someone attacking me first and then me stomping their ass AND NOT DEDUCT ONE SINGLE POINT OF SL from me cause they started it
{MD}GeistDamnit
29-11-03, 06:33
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
It will also be nice if a faction was hired to take you out, like all of a sudden 3 npc's pop outof nowhere to attack just you, that'd be fun. Or, having faction npc's that aren't guards, but are kinda like runners, and have various weapons and are varied classes..
/me stops talking about hopless things now.
giving players a job like that would be cool also.
Ditched? Definetely not.
Modified so people aren't punished who shouldn't be punished? Yes. The only real change that concerns me is making it so you don't lose SL if some doofus that's allied or neutral decides he doesn't care about SL and you lose it yourself if you win.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 11:07
WHY NOT
Lol why if im a city merc character. Do copbots care if i kill another city merc? Why it just doesnt make sense. Who would care if a city merc killed a city merc.... THE CITY MERCS... thats why u should be punished with faction loss. Then if your a crazy pker you faction guards will rape you. You will be banished to the outzone and wastelands and have a miserable life.
Originally posted by greploco
well then they can track someone attacking me first and then me stomping their ass AND NOT DEDUCT ONE SINGLE POINT OF SL from me cause they started it
Then people will run into another persons aoe or line of site and when they get hit they;ll kill them without a penalty cuz "they where hit first" Thats why. It would have to be a certain percentage but still people would exploit it.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
I still dont think it will be a gankfest if faction sympathys where more important.
We already had a system with SL was more or less ditched and it lead to 24/7 gankfest by a handful on higher players on lower level players.
The system works. It allows those who want to smack someone for being an idiot to do so, while curbing antisocial behaviour to all but the people who have the balls to take the risk.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 13:10
Originally posted by Archeus
24/7 gankfest by a handful on higher players on lower level players.
Once again theyre wouldnt be a gankfest because in addition to ditching soullight we make it so u lose faction sympathy and if u lose to much ur own guards will annialate you.
I think ive said it after every persons post for crying out loud.
Atleast someone say no psycho even if we made it so faction sympathy was more important there would still be a gankfest because.... and ill be happy that someone aknowledged that that was even said, its even quoted in the first paragraph. (Atleast from what people have written they dont appear to mention that fact.)
I tend to agree here. A real faction sympathy system as described rather than soulight would be lot more reasonable and believable. SL is too "fake" to be taken seriously.
superfresh
29-11-03, 13:19
No. Soullight is the thing that enforces the faction system. If you really want to ditch SL, then throw away the whole faction thing and just call it Unreal Tournament or something. SL in its own possibly inconveniencing way maintains the politics that are supposed to be a part of Neocron, which keep it from being a mindless trigger fest.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 13:21
Omg still I dont think anyone has read the fact that
THE FACTION SYMPATHIES WILL BE MADE MORE IMPORTANT. IF U GO NUTS YOU WILL LOSE FACTION SYMPATHY AND YOUR GUARDS WILL SHOOT YOU AND YOUR LIFE WILL BE MISERABLE AS IF COPBOTS WHERE SHOOTING YOU
Soullight makes absolutely no sense. Who cares if a tg kills a tg... certainly not the fucking copbots. Tg is going to be mad not the copbots. So tg should be responsible for resolving the problem.
Marx i think this should be remade with a different title and a properly laid out description because it seems to me that noone is reading the post and just replying on the thread title. (Unless you just wanted to know people opinions in general of removing soullight or combined with the addition of faction importance increase.)
Dade Murphey
29-11-03, 13:23
I actually do like the idea of making factions more important...as it is they mean fuck all...SL could be a good idea...but it's too easy to gain now so it kinda ruins the whole point...I agree with PK that doing away with it and making factions mean something would not really have to lead to a gank fest...but faction guards would actually have to be a force to deal with...they'd all have to be suped up...most of them are push overs...it could work out really well if done right...and I think it could bring a lot to the game
(wow..this is worded pretty shittily...but meh...I'm tired and it's late)
i think it u shouldnt loose sl when u kill someone in anarchy or warzone, even a neutral or an ally.
that suks, cuz when u at war with clan that are neutral, within a day u have to pop back the le and do some fucking annoying missions.
superfresh
29-11-03, 13:27
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Soullight makes absolutely no sense. Who cares if a tg kills a tg... certainly not the fucking copbots. Tg is going to be mad not the copbots. So tg should be responsible for resolving the problem.
You're putting way too much faith in the players.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 13:29
Not the players the faction guards. Why would a Tg repeatedly kill another tg player if theyre risked being killed by there own guards. (Yes guards would need a huge increase to make them something to actualy fear.)
superfresh
29-11-03, 13:31
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Not the players the faction guards. Why would a Tg repeatedly kill another tg player if theyre risked being killed by there own guards. (Yes guards would need a huge increase to make them something to actualy fear.)
Because this assumes that, in this example, the TG's spend all of their time at the canyon, which they do not. The penalty for killing allies should apply to you wherever you go.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 13:33
This would also include no safe zones in neocron. And tg wouldnt be safe in neocron beacuse all the faction guards would try to kill them. So theyre only place would be tg or th to get stuff done. If a tg killed a tg theyre Fa sympathy also goes down so they would be banned from th also eventualy.
I mentioned this and other parts in different posts throughout the thread.
And why should it apply wherever you go? Honestly why does reeza or a copbot care that a twilight guardian killed one of its own.
Lets just pretend for argument sake that if we took away soullight, and made it so that faction sympathys where important enough to be an equal deterant that soullight is now(and it worked). Would you agree to get rid of it?
superfresh
29-11-03, 13:56
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
This would also include no safe zones in neocron. And tg wouldnt be safe in neocron beacuse all the faction guards would try to kill them. So theyre only place would be tg or th to get stuff done. If a tg killed a tg theyre Fa sympathy also goes down so they would be banned from th also eventualy.
I mentioned this and other parts in different posts throughout the thread.
Aye. But, incidentally, what reason is there to go to TH anyway. Theres simply nothing there. Different topic I know...
But let's be realistic and consider that most of the people, at least on Saturn, are making up their own faction alliances anyway. I do it myself. I have many friends in many enemy factions. I still honor the faction/Sl system and help allies out of routine in OP wars and such, but its very clear that its becoming more chaotic as far as the politics go. I think the original intent was that the players would obey the politics, and that the politics would be an integral part of the game. SL is an important part of the politics. You can choose your own faction, but in so doing you choose your allies and enemies. Restricting faction breaches to their home areas will make things worse if the faction system is still important to NC. Forgoing the obvious that homelands are primarily defended by NPC's, its VERY possible and quite easy to get along just fine without even going there. I have an FA character that hasnt been to Techaven in 6 months.
If anything, I think the faction thing needs to be tightened or tossed away altogether.
Here's an idea - maybe if faction alliances weren't consistent, but worked more like the stock market. Dunno.
superfresh
29-11-03, 13:59
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
And why should it apply wherever you go? Honestly why does reeza or a copbot care that a twilight guardian killed one of its own.
Because without omniscience the average player can't keep track of what faction breaches have been made. The in-game SL system does that.
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 14:07
Thats what i was going for.... I think people should follow the current politics closer then they do now. If this was implemented each faction (well except bd they would be shafted to be stuck in outzone and pp) would still have there own faction to hang out and there allies areas to hang out with. I think this will lead to more alliances to clans that actualy make sense to be allianced together game wise. You of course would be allowed to travel in neutral territory provided u didnt harm any of there faction members or allies while you where there.
I know alot will have to be changed for it to actualy work but I think it would seriously add to the fun factor and rp factor for the game.
superfresh
29-11-03, 14:18
If theres anything that could be done to enforce the faction system, I'm all for it. I have seen plenty of players killed by allies for no reason and lots of VERY random alliances. I think the faction thing seperates NC from standard 3-D shooters and so on. I might not be understanding very well, but so far from what I gather the idea here is that the penalty for faction breaches should be more localized than universal?
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 14:42
Thats basicaly what i was going for. Leaving factions in charge of handing out the punishment rather then the copbots who are suppose to shoot criminals. The copbots would then be left to kill anti cityadmin if they tried to enter the inner city limits. Also if you are pro city and you go too far with killing allies your faction will then alert the copbots to your actions and they will kos you. Of course there should be ways to earn the soullight back outside of the city.
superfresh
29-11-03, 14:57
The factions meaning the NPC's? If you mean that copbots should care less if TG's breach their whole faction thing, then I agree. But then, technically, copbots shouldnt want TG's in the city anyway :)
Psycho Killa
29-11-03, 15:17
Yes which is why I think anti city should be banned from viarossa and plaza. Theyre free to go into pepper park and industrial. Even have a chance to raise an army against the copbots in plaza. Though the pro city would have the advantage since theyre would be copbots to aid them and possibly an alarm system in the city.
Originally posted by Marx
Yes, No, abstain.
Vote, kthx.
Read this before voting, courtesy of Psycho Killa.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my mind soullight should be dithed. Though instead if you shoot someone in your faction or allied faction you will lose a decent amount of sympathy with your faction. If you lose to much sympathy in your faction your guards will shoot you. If you loose to much sympathy in your own faction and your pro city admin copbots will kos u if your faction sympathy gets too low with your own sympathy.
Also an increase in security guards in strategic places around the city. Such as an increase of black dragon and tsunami in there respectively controlled areas. (Getting a bit off topic it would be cool if u where bd or tsunami and could earn control of a section of bd or tsunami to spawn a couple guards in that area) Also added diamond guards in and around the diamond dealers etc. You get the idea.
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I think this is good AS LONG as there are the negative effects stated, just getting rid of SL would not be a good idea
there has to be some way of reducing random noob ganking etc and also keeping PvP alive
I vote yes - I dislike SL as it's such an artificial game mechanism. The reasons have mostly been laid out already in this thread.
Newbies can be kept safe through the LE - if the description can be updated to reflect the current penalties (or lack thereof) of wearing / not wearing one (haven't looked at one in ages so dunno how up to date it is). And obviously if any exploits that let you PK LE'd players (or as an LE'd player, for that matter) are plugged.
I agree...ditch SL and ditch it NOW........
Measures I would like in place to combat high ranking players ganking n00bs are
i) A bounty system introduced. If a player dies he can post on the city com (within 5 mins of death) that <player a> has killed him and offers a reward.
ii) A most wanted list of players with the most bounties on their head.
iii) LE chip changes if they are in a team. The LE runner can recieve passive spells cast apon them (encourage LE use)
iv) Runners under a certain level and NPC's get a bounty posted on thier killer automatically by their faction.
I can see many loopholes and a few restrictions on how bounties are collected are needed (bounties can not be collected by faction allies etc.......)
I think the current SL system is pointless and better way can be introduced to prevent mass PK'ing as that is what the SL system is for. With any luck you can get the players to regulate the PK'ers and this also adds to the RP of the game.
Another benifit is vigilanties and n00b gankers will not be treated the same as they are in the current system.
Originally posted by BiTeMe
I think the current SL system is pointless and better way can be introduced to prevent mass PK'ing as that is what the SL system is for. With any luck you can get the players to regulate the PK'ers and this also adds to the RP of the game.
Another benifit is vigilanties and n00b gankers will not be treated the same as they are in the current system.
So very true.
w00t! NERF THE SL!!!!
5 stars
KRIMINAL99
29-11-03, 21:55
Great idea. 5 item drop is just stupid. KOS from copbots and guards... at least its fair in the sense that if the guards kill faction enemies then they should kill rogue faction members as well.
Thats a fair solution.
@ Psycho Killa and everyone else screaming that no one read your silly idea that it would make FS mean something...
Yes, the idea is silly. What do you mean this won't lead to a gankfest? I'm a big nasty capped PK'er. I go out, kill everything I see. Then I get bad FS with my faction (big deal). I go to some place my faction enemy newbies like to level and slaughter all the enemy n00b. I get lots of FS with my own faction for killing enemies. Oh look, I've got a "get out of jail free" card after killing over a dozen allies/faction members. (FS loss is just faaaar too low. And if the loss is increased then the gain would have to be increased to remain fair. Which would not change a thing).
Alternatively, that makes factions like TG and BD the ultimate gankers because each of them has like 6 or 7 enemies. So they can go out on gankfests for free now without any worry about consequences. Gee! What a GREAT idea!
P.S. What factions do you guys who push for this idea play? BD/TG? :rolleyes:
Edit:
Originally posted by BiTeMe
I think the current SL system is pointless and better way can be introduced to prevent mass PK'ing as that is what the SL system is for. With any luck you can get the players to regulate the PK'ers and this also adds to the RP of the game.
Another benifit is vigilanties and n00b gankers will not be treated the same as they are in the current system.
Well, that's why one of my main conditions is increased server population. Server populations at the moment are ridiculously too low to allow for any player-based regulation. It's simply impossible. Especially for those of us who live on the wrong side of the pond and play on servers with 40-50 people on at best. 40 players on server divided amongst 11 factions is less than 4 players per faction on average. At best on Saturn you can crack 300, once again divided amongst 11 factions that's about 30 players per faction. Since most of those want to play, level, hunt or what not. Also remove all tradeskillers from equation as they can't really PvP and enforce. So you end up once again with practically no one to really enforce. The only way this player-based enforcement could work is if server populations were raised by a factor of 10 at the very least. But as I said before in many other threads, that is impossible as we know that the game would become totally unstable if the population were to increase (We have all seen what happens to the game during events where you'd have a good 50+ players in one area/sector/zone).
So in conclusion, player-based enforcement cannot work in this game, so we must have the game provide with such control mechanisms.
KRIMINAL99
30-11-03, 00:03
Originally posted by Lareolan
@ Psycho Killa and everyone else screaming that no one read your silly idea that it would make FS mean something...
Yes, the idea is silly. What do you mean this won't lead to a gankfest? I'm a big nasty capped PK'er. I go out, kill everything I see. Then I get bad FS with my faction (big deal). I go to some place my faction enemy newbies like to level and slaughter all the enemy n00b. I get lots of FS with my own faction for killing enemies. Oh look, I've got a "get out of jail free" card after killing over a dozen allies/faction members. (FS loss is just faaaar too low. And if the loss is increased then the gain would have to be increased to remain fair. Which would not change a thing).
Alternatively, that makes factions like TG and BD the ultimate gankers because each of them has like 6 or 7 enemies. So they can go out on gankfests for free now without any worry about consequences. Gee! What a GREAT idea!
P.S. What factions do you guys who push for this idea play? BD/TG? :rolleyes:
actually thats not true. You can get to -99 fac sympathy in a matter of minutes of pking allies, but pking enemies it will take you forever to get back.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
actually thats not true. You can get to -99 fac sympathy in a matter of minutes of pking allies, but pking enemies it will take you forever to get back.
I PK'd 2 faction members. Lost a whole lot of SL, but my FS went from 74 or so down to 68. (Well, I didn't really kill them, I did 1 point of damage to them about 10 minutes before they went off and got killed. But that doesn't matter to the system).
So no, it's very difficult to get FS that low.
KRIMINAL99
30-11-03, 00:23
Originally posted by Lareolan
I PK'd 2 faction members. Lost a whole lot of SL, but my FS went from 74 or so down to 68. (Well, I didn't really kill them, I did 1 point of damage to them about 10 minutes before they went off and got killed. But that doesn't matter to the system).
So no, it's very difficult to get FS that low.
No it isnt, first of all the rate it drops doesn't stay the same. I haven't monitored it to figure the system out perfectly but if you kill like 10 ppl of a faction you will lose about 100 pts, (you say less than 20, not even a big dif really)
But anyways killing faction enemies nets you less than 1 point at the really low values.
Psycho Killa
30-11-03, 00:59
Lareolan yes there would have to be changes made in the way faction sympathy is gained and lost to make this idea work. I do not beleive this will lead to any more ganking then there already is.
Originally posted by Lareolan
Alternatively, that makes factions like TG and BD the ultimate gankers because each of them has like 6 or 7 enemies. So they can go out on gankfests for free now without any worry about consequences. Gee! What a GREAT idea!
P.S. What factions do you guys who push for this idea play? BD/TG? :rolleyes:
Yes infact i do play bd but obviously u dont grasp the whole concept of the idea. If im blackdragon faction guards will already be shooting me when i got to TG TH and MB along with the inner city faction guards (once again no safe zones would be needed for this to completely work i think that part may come with doy either way.) Anyways the only place i have to call my own now is pepper park. If I kill 4 or 5 of my faction members and have low sympathy now the blackdragon guards will not want me around. (Theyre not gonna let someone who kills its own members among its ranks) Now everywhere i go except outzone and the wastelands i go i have npcs kicking my ass. I know have to prove myself worthy of my faction and regain sympathy by killing enemies or doing missions. (Some citycoms in oz would be ideal) If I want trade services i now have to pay extra to get somebody willing to take the risk of coming to me. This makes it so people will less likely want to be a rampant criminal yet make it so that it is still possible. (Being a criminal is not suppose to be impossible just a harder harsher life stlye.)
Now copbots will already kos anti city factions.
If your procity and you kill to many allies. Your faction will alert the copbots of your criminal behavior and kos you if you kill to many allies.
HAH you assume bd would benefit most from this when infact they would be shafter the most. I actualy like this because being bd would mean living as criminals in pepper park. We would be kos everywhere outside of pepper park and fuck even half of pepper park would want us dead. Now if we are assholes and kill our fellow bd we will be welcome NOWHERE.
Faction sympathy isnt exactly easy to gain now. With these changes it will be even harder since faction guards would be made stronger. It would be harder to level your faction sympathy off npcs. You only gain very little sympathy by killing enemies. Youd have to kill about 50+ enemies for every couple allies u kill
I only complained about people not reading my "silly" idea because it seems obvious to me from every persons post with exception to yours that they seemed to base there reply on the title of the thread and didnt bother to read the faction sympathy idea.
Richard Adregen
30-11-03, 01:05
The worst thing about the SL system is probably the way you lose it though... one misplaced shot and BAM! There goes your carefully accumulated 100 SL... Had it happen to me. 5 times. Now I don't even BOTHER anymore. It's useless. Ditch the SL system and make faction sympathies more important!
RA.
Originally posted by Richard Adregen
The worst thing about the SL system is probably the way you lose it though... one misplaced shot and BAM! There goes your carefully accumulated 100 SL... Had it happen to me. 5 times. Now I don't even BOTHER anymore. It's useless. Ditch the SL system and make faction sympathies more important!
RA.
Why does everyone say ditch SL system because it's horribly broken? Shouldn't something broken be FIXED first? The whole "misplaced shot" thing is a bug, not a feature of the SL system. That is yet another thing Martin thinks for some reason doesn't classify as a "showtopper bug" where you misplace 3 shots and have to spend 3 hours idling in your apartment or half an hour doing missions. (And that's in best case scenario AND while avoiding anyone killing you or you'll lose 5 items).
I am in no way happy with the SL system as it is right now. But it needs to be fixed, not ditched. Instead of everyone posting their half-baked ideas in here, why don't we all just get together and flood KK's mailboxes with proper bug reports so they'd know that the game IS buggy as hell and DOES need fixing.
P.S. Can you tell I am still pissed at Martin's ignorance (wether it was real or fake, I do not know, but it's still very very very aggravating).
Ditch it, make Copbots CA faction guards.
Stick faction guards all over the place...
Up their power a bit so they're a force to reckon with.
Yeehaw, problem solved, SL completely out of the equation.
Promethius
30-11-03, 02:55
Sl should be ditched. Or atleast a new system to replace it. Because as it is its shit. Or make a way to that SL hits depend on if u hit someone for 50% + of there HP and u take a SL hit. or something along those lines. Also i would like there to be a bounty system for CIty mercs. So a faction can higher CM to fight for a faction and they would get the same allies and enemys as that faction.
either was toss SL systems PK 4 eva.
oooooo that would be cool i can actually kill some greens that need 2 be pked
With any luck you can get the players to regulate the PK'ers and this also adds to the RP of the game.
Exactly.
Thank you for using your brain, unlike most do here. When mass PKing is allowed, it never runs out of control...because theres always people who spend thier time STOPPING pkers. It should balance itself out in any game.
SL stop pking. And by doing that, it ruins all the fun for pkers... and makes the "anti-pk" class basically as useless waste of time
SL SUCKS
Sounds like my sort of game. What a great idea.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Yes but u should explain more or people would vote no.
I would vote no myself if u didnt explain more.
In my mind soullight should be ditched. Though instead if you shoot someone in your faction or allied faction you will lose a decent amount of sympathy with your faction. If you lose to much sympathy in your faction your guards will shoot you. If you loose to much sympathy in your own faction and your pro city admin copbots will kos u if your faction sympathy gets too low with your own sympathy. (Anti city admin will already be kos to cops)
Also an increase in security guards in strategic places around the city. Such as an increase of black dragon and tsunami in there respectively controlled areas. (Getting a bit off topic it would be cool if u where bd or tsunami and could earn control of a section of bd or tsunami to spawn a couple guards in that area) Also added diamond guards in and around the diamond dealers etc. You get the idea.
There should also be an increase in reason to hang around your faction headquarters. This will increase interaction between faction members possibly leading to more organized clans or atleast interaction between them along with giving a good reason to not want low faction sympathy.
Additional changes:
As they have done on the test server up the faction guards so only a team could stand up to them. Copbots should be marginaly stronger then faction guards.
Make it so a lone idiot will fear guards but a decent team will still have the ability to siege faction hqs or make strategical strikes on the city. There should be an increase in copbots in plaza 1 area to protect tradeskillers.
The sewers and main sewers should connect to eachother so that criminals can seek shelter down there and they should be connected to outzone where criminals can get apartments if they so choose to be an outlaw.
No safe zones.
Copbots should not respawn for a few minutes. Though a warning should be let off that the city is under attack and what zone the intruders are in. This will allow people to defend the city. If you kill all the intruders there should be a terminal to hack that will return the citys defenses (call in reinforcement copbots to fill the zone back)
Though this is getting a bit more like an overhaul then an idea :)
I think that it will greatly increase the fun factor and bond between faction members.
yea ive said get rid of safezones a few times...think i got flamed for it...becuz people are a bunch of whiners...and fear things they havent even encountered yet...
and SL should decrease correctly...instead of going from 100 to -12...
this fuckin game needs the FEAR put back into it...and getting red SL isnt a fear, it's just a pain in the ass...
KramerTheWeird
30-11-03, 08:38
hey gostly, out of curiosity, did you ever read the book?
hey gostly, out of curiosity, did you ever read the book?
no, but i watched the 3 hour long movie...is the book much different?...
KramerTheWeird
30-11-03, 09:46
It's a bit different yes, more so Kubrick based his movie off the book, using the ultra violence and anti-violence procedures... you just have to read it!
Generally the book of something is better than the movie since they have more freedom to explain the plot and concept and some things are easier worded than visualized.
Good examples are Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? vs. Bladerunner, and Dune vs. the movie.
Kramer... DUNE WAS A GREAT MOVIE.
The book was good 2...
If you say otherwise Ill eat your face off
Fear is the mind killer,
I will let my feat pass through me,, blah blah blah
1984 would have been a better example
Ok movie GREAT book.
KramerTheWeird
30-11-03, 10:04
I didn't mean the books were worse or the movies better, I was saying they can be different.
The movie Dune, hell it went into the second book even, and left a lot out of the first book.
This has a lot to do with the director's approach to the book. Kubrick was notorious for making his own unique print on any movie he made based off a book, same with Stephen Speilberg.
/me stops hijacking the thread
oh, ya SL sucks. but I voted no, because at the momment nothing else works unless they improve faction sympathy.
I think removing all safe zones might be a bit drastic and I think alot of people will oppose this idea. I personaly would like no safe zones but then again I don't have a trade skill char.
The only way we can tell if getting the players to regulate the gankers is a poll. If the ganker numbers from the poll > Vigilanties then it will not work. I dislike the SL system for so many resons but most of all the fact it is so artificial and not in the RP aspect of the game.
I think relying on faction sympathies as mentioned before in this thread is definately one idea but I think the allied/neutral/hostile link between factions should be dynamic. Dynamic factions would increase the RP of the game on a day to day basis, but also make creating the overall story a nightmare.
Even though there are alot of REALLY good ideas out there to replace the SL system, sadly I can't see KK changing it.
Promethius
01-12-03, 19:59
Originally posted by BiTeMe
I think removing all safe zones might be a bit drastic and I think alot of people will oppose this idea. I personaly would like no safe zones but then again I don't have a trade skill char.
The only way we can tell if getting the players to regulate the gankers is a poll. If the ganker numbers from the poll > Vigilanties then it will not work. I dislike the SL system for so many resons but most of all the fact it is so artificial and not in the RP aspect of the game.
I think relying on faction sympathies as mentioned before in this thread is definately one idea but I think the allied/neutral/hostile link between factions should be dynamic. Dynamic factions would increase the RP of the game on a day to day basis, but also make creating the overall story a nightmare.
Even though there are alot of REALLY good ideas out there to replace the SL system, sadly I can't see KK changing it.
Possibly one safe zone? For all our trade skill needs.....or possibly a zone with about 30 copbots 0.o. But that pings apus barrels adn zones and proly just be a more dangerous peppar park =\.
Or maybe a building that's a safe zone... and we can all do our business there? few lvls kinda like CA HQ....but not so confusing.
If you do remove safe zones then you still need a way to keep them safe. If copbots were to shoot people with guns out like PP then the people who want to grief and the people who want to stop it will still be handled the same way by copbots (KoS with your gun out) and as people know, an organised team would still be able to breach plaza 1 and slaughter the tradeskillers there.
There is nothing I can suggest for fixing the SL system currently but here are the problems I see if KK want to proceed down the SL route
i) An accidental hit can cause a runner with 100 SL do drop instantly down to -10 SL
ii) People who grief a lot can run missions to clear their dept and this process doesn't take long (provided you haven't gone down too far with your SL) so it doesn't REALLY discourage griefing.
iii) There is no reward for having high SL. My monk who had over 100 SL (till I parashocked the wrong person who then died) still had on average the same number of imps pop from him on death as my tank who is very rarely above 10 SL
iv) Why is the limit for copbots shooting you -18 (not sure) but common sense would say raise the SL number system by 18 and then make people with negative soul light = current -18 SL (so if you kill someone you go down to 8 SL instead of -10 and people below 0 = KoS)
This would help some confusion with the SL system as is stands.
v) Copbots do not differentiate between what players are doing. If for instance TG invade PP and the Tsunami / BD are trying to fight them off, then the copbots will just shoot everyone with a gun, regardless of the fact some people might be trying to defend their turf / home. This means that apart from the fact it is an artificial system it is also taking away RP'ing oportunities.
I beleive that the SL system needs a to hold a definate advantage for people with lots of it but I also believe that ideas in this thread to replace the SL system would be better for the game.
It would be nice if a KK representative could comment on their thoughts regarding the SL system as it stands. (Although I would like to be proved wrong it's HIGHLY unlikely all the same)
Do they feel it has any weaknesses and if so are there any planned improvements?
How do they feel about players being self regulatory with griefers?
Are there plans to alter the safe zones or the CopBots KoS for -18 SL ?
Promethius
02-12-03, 20:53
I see a good number for 'NO' to ditch SL. Yet i don't see any posts proving WHY they shouldn't change SL? and why they think its good atm.
Originally posted by Promethius
I see a good number for 'NO' to ditch SL. Yet i don't see any posts proving WHY they shouldn't change SL? and why they think its good atm.
When people who are afraid of change are conservative, and will say no.
Promethius
02-12-03, 21:07
IMHO i think SL has been an issue for a long time its just we are so use to disliking things in NC and just dealing with it (i.e. para shock/Loms etc) that people don't even bother tryin to change the game for better or worse.
In a perfect NC world I'd have:
-the SL system i mentioned before.
-Loms with half SI
-rares that acumilate dmg be reduced a bit
-no fatals :p
-DoY out on time ^^
-an island u can swim to with loads of strippers
its all i ask for. :lol:
On a diff note. I think some people haven't been in NC for a very long time and don't realy wanna see things change before they even get use to wat they are now.
-Prom
I voted no, coz you didnt add a yes 'but' option.
yes remove soulight, BUT there has to be SOME way to penalise the 1337 pkorz/rpkorz/mass murderer types,
Pking is against the law, soulight is a measure of you 'lawfulness' i spose, but it needs reworked majorly, theres nothing worse than not realising youve got - 17 Sl and gring into plaza,
*beeeeeeeeeeeeearrrrrrehhhhh* piu piu pui pui piu piu piu piu piup iup iupi upuipuipuipuipiupi.........
O-o, I LOST MY 12 slot UBER artifact CockOvanButchersknife CS!!!11oeonmoenoenr OMfg BUGZORZ
oh.........i got shit Sl.......poop.
So
yes remove it, but rework SOME way to keep the 1337 pkorz in check, aside from me ganking them theres no real way i see right now.
Promethius
02-12-03, 21:12
Originally posted by Oath
I voted no, coz you didnt add a yes 'but' option.
yes remove soulight, BUT there has to be SOME way to penalise the 1337 pkorz/rpkorz/mass murderer types,
Pking is against the law, soulight is a measure of you 'lawfulness' i spose, but it needs reworked majorly, theres nothing worse than not realising youve got - 17 Sl and gring into plaza,
*beeeeeeeeeeeeearrrrrrehhhhh* piu piu pui pui piu piu piu piu piup iup iupi upuipuipuipuipiupi.........
O-o, I LOST MY 12 slot UBER artifact CockOvanButchersknife CS!!!11oeonmoenoenr OMfg BUGZORZ
oh.........i got shit Sl.......poop.
So
yes remove it, but rework SOME way to keep the 1337 pkorz in check, aside from me ganking them theres no real way i see right now.
Not sure if u read all our other posts but when we voted yes its not do to Sl out the window but a reform of it or some form of a diff way to keep chaotic PKin 24/7 in check.
Originally posted by Duder
When people who are afraid of change are conservative, and will say no.
A case of better the devil you know.......
It does frustrate me to think of an NC world without SL but in it's place player interaction and man hunts for the griefer who just killed some n00bs in the aggie cellar. Would add so much RP to the game.
Originally posted by Promethius
Not sure if u read all our other posts but when we voted yes its not do to Sl out the window but a reform of it or some form of a diff way to keep chaotic PKin 24/7 in check.
Oh.........guess i didnt read them all then, change me to yes :D
yes remove soulight, BUT there has to be SOME way to penalise the 1337 pkorz/rpkorz/mass murderer types
Its simple - Faction guards will be everywhere and shoot people with horrid sympathy. Running through P1 would still be a pain in the ass, and the person would probably die alot. They wouldn't drop all their shit, which is a definate plus - but they'd still have to worry about dropping some stuff.
If everything was faction based, you'd have the following.
-TG in TG Canyon and TH instead of Neocron.
-People forced to work out of the wastelands as opposed to any city
-A more accurate criminal ID system (because a criminal is only a criminal to those who care about his/her actions)
What would need to be reworked is FS gains and losses to make this change decent.
Take this example, youre tangent, some Fallen Angel scum comes and kill you.
Ok, lets say theres no SL anymore, and that Copbots are under CityAdmin as they should be.
You lose loads of Tangent and CityAdmin, and everything else thats allied to Tangent.
Guess what, low CityAdmin symp, copbots will be after you.
It means instead of some fruity SL number, you make faction symp mean something now, as in, VALUE.
If you were going to rely on faction sympathies then maybe add a slightly better way of raising them as it is far to easy to get -99 Symp.
Also making the factions dynamic or at least changing who each faction is hostile/neutral/friends so it makes some sence !
Make 2 large groups of pro-city / anti-city and just play with the friendly / neutral status in them. Anything else is just a mind f*ck when you are fighting Enemies/Neutrals and Allies at an op war, as the clan you are fighting bought along their allies. Then because of said incident clans that are ment to be "allied" get bad feelings towards eash other. It then all goes pair shaped rather quick and no one pays any notice of who's allied and who isn't except for the GR rules (which I also think should be removed as they have pissed off more people of than they have pleased)
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