View Full Version : To all the PPU Nerf whiners. . .
ok, guys, can you ALL please jump the fuck off the 'nerf the PPU gravy train' and just put your brains into gear for 5 minutes ? Pleas ? with some sugar on top ?
Ok, theres some stupid posts ive seen on these forums, and tbh, some of them really make me wanna get a labotomy just so i can start to comprehend some of the shit ideas thats posted on these forums . . .
We all know that monks are causing a problem, we all know that APUs have rediculous damage output and next to no defence, and that PPUs have rediculous defence and next to no offence *thats effective*
now theres certain people that are always wanting their class to be on top, wont mention any names or anything .. . however theres the current craze that people are calling for PPU shelters and deflectors to be made SELF CAST ONLY, now that is the biggest load of codshit ive ever heard, cmon for christs sake, Tanks would become useless as PE's can get much better defence than them, APUs would be remotely balanced as theyd hit the ground like a sack of shit, spy's still have their range advantage etc, but PPUs would then look even more godlike than the other classes, people would get lazy and get too used to fights lasting approx 5 seconds as theres no PPU buffs etc and then want the PPU utterly nerfed to shit....... can nobody see that for christs sake ?
Then theres PvM, yes all you capped people that only do OP wars now, there are still people out there that fight mobs . . . now come the fucking on ok, you tried doing MC5 without a PPU or 3 behind you ? LMFAO !!! cmon, lets try MC5 with self cast shelters for PPUs and PE's while the tank and APU get nothing . . . yea didnt think you thought of that, or leveling places like chaos caves, elfarid, warbot farming, gaya mines, around gaya at the fire mobs, your gonna have to fuckin start workin there cause of having no PPU etc to buff you up, now imo, this would take the last bit of fun out the game and ill be off, thats 5 accounts down for KKs already dwindling playerbase . . .
now look, dont give me any bullshit biased crap about me having a PPU etc, I also have a tank, PE, spy and APU, played all classes at high level etc, played the game for a year now pretty much daily, so dont try that shit on me. . . I realise that monks are the problem at the moment, only reason i have a PPU and APU atm is because THEY ARE NEEDED because of the state the game has currently got to and i have never really liked playing a monk cause of the way that the neocron game system works . . .
IMO this is what needs to be done, and no theres no crackhead ideas about removing heals and making only heal sancts etc, or making shel/def self cast only or reworking a WHOLE player class a year into the fucking retail release . . .
This should be done...
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
2) Remove the turning speed hit to your mouse movements from all kinds of para
3) Give EACH class some form of hurting a PPU, either make it a seperate weapon like the anti vehicle rockets, or a shelter breaker ammo mod that does less than normal damage but is unaffected by sheilds or deflectors.
4) lower the runspeed hit to tanks, lower the staminaburn for tanks, give tanks a alternative to the CS
5) Lower APU range ALOT on halo's and Beam's or make all their weapons line of sight or like a Lance, this should stop the old 'run, hide, get hit 5 more times cause of 'animation lag' on the spells..
6) Lower APU damage slightly all over, not completely nerf to a bloody pulp with the nerf stick, but just lower it slightly, APUs ALREADY have pretty much instant aim and rediculous ROF, and ontop of that they have regenerating 'ammo' from psi boosters and also cause rediculous damage. . . Just something like a 10-15% hit to their current damage
7) lower the max ROF on APU spells to around 70/min, 105/min at the damage they cause is unbelievable . . .
now in my opinion that covers all the problems with monks and the personal opinion of whats wrong with tanks . . .
please PLEASE cut down on all the 'make shelt and def self cast' ideas as that is just plain stupidity.
Anyway DO NOT turn this into a flame thread, im serious with these ideas, if you have something to contribute, please think about what your saying, if you want to argue for self cast shelt and def, then please think of a valid point, if you want to suggest something else, please think it through first instead of thinking of the idea as your writing the post, and also if you have the urge to flame me then please take it to direct as i dont want this closed due to flame fighting.
Sex.....
Nuff said.
Self cast only spells, kinda negate ppu as a class, capped holy heal can only do so much, then whats the point, why not remove all spells, all weapons, may as well do all armor and items too, lets all go round shouting 'JUDO CHOP' at everyone.
And yes fenix, i agree.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 22:41
First of all, halos already have shitty range, you wanna lower it further?
Secondly, you wanna drop apu rof from 105 to a whopping 70/min WITH a damage decrease on top of that? :rolleyes:
That's like dropping liberator rof from 370 to 230. That's not a tweak, that's a tremendous sledgehammmer nerf.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
now in my opinion that covers all the problems with monks and the personal opinion of whats wrong with tanks . . .
IMO there is nothing wrong with tanks other than their AOE. Their AOE should be boosted, that's pretty much it.
AS for the monk situation, you'll just be making apus crap solo play without a PPU, and PPUs will still be tremendously needed and overimportant. So now I don't think your "plan" helps anything.
Mr Friendly
28-11-03, 22:42
i agree with 1, 2,
except more around 30/mins max cast speed
#7...o_O dun even start on "nerf the apus"
I love this, tanks DO NOT duel with AOE weapons, they *ie ME* hardly ever use them, even in an opwar AOE spam is dull, tanks are a dynamic class, boosting the AOE will simpy turret them, sure why not.
i mean ffs, not like it matters anyway :rolleyes: :p
But thats besides the point, self cast shelter / deflectors only = ghey.
Mr Friendly
28-11-03, 22:46
ever gotten 3 tanks to all shoot their moon strikers at the same time? ;)
very affective
They should make AE aim like back in the day =( where you could run and shoot and actually hit your target...
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 22:50
Originally posted by Oath
I love this, tanks DO NOT duel with AOE weapons, they *ie ME* hardly ever use them, even in an opwar AOE spam is dull, tanks are a dynamic class, boosting the AOE will simpy turret them, sure why not.
Not everything is "dueling". Other than not having much of a unique role in op wars, I don't see anything wrong with tanks.
Originally posted by Nexxy
They should make AE aim like back in the day =( where you could run and shoot and actually hit your target...
That sounds fun. I wonder why they changed it.
Tanks would become useless as PE's can get much better defence than them
No they wouldn't.... because they have better OFFENCE than PEs.
Look I know you have an APU, PPU and Tank. But have you ever played a high end PE for a significant period of time? Because then you would know that PE offence is alot less than tanks and that PEs only have better defence in Duels and PP1 fights. Tanks have better in OP wars because they have better armour and the same buffs from PPUs, also tanks are better in OP wars because PEs rely massively on the speed that they go at, meaning that when a PE is parashocked he may as well just have typed /set kill_self 1. Also tanks have their defence on them all the time. Without buffs a PE is almost useless, they have massively subpar defence compared to tanks, they have the least offence (PPUs don't count) and they can only stealth for 10 secs in comparision to Spies stealth. Also it takes much more skill to set up a PEs Dex than it does to set up a tanks str.... hmmm where shall i put these next 5 str points.... I know, in heavy combat!!
Also, lets not just fuck around with parashock, we all know that it should be removed from PvP completely as it is the move overpowered and gay piece of shit that has ever graced the NC servers.
Another silly idea from a non-monk player. How about letting shelters and deflectors work as shields that give you a fixed amount they can take before they are destroyed. Like say shelter gives you 300 extra points that need to be worn down with energy weapons. Kind of like the powerarmor in Quake 3.
Originally posted by Judge
But have you ever played a high end PE for a significant period of time? Because then you would know that PE offence is alot less than tanks and that PEs only have better defence in Duels and PP1 fights. Tanks have better in OP wars because they have better armour and the same buffs from PPUs, also tanks are better in OP wars because PEs rely massively on the speed that they go at, meaning that when a PE is parashocked he may as well just have typed /set kill_self 1. Also tanks have their defence on them all the time. Without buffs a PE is almost useless, they have massively subpar defence compared to tanks, they have the least offence (PPUs don't count) and they can only stealth for 10 secs in comparision to Spies stealth. Also it takes much more skill to set up a PEs Dex than it does to set up a tanks str.... hmmm where shall i put these next 5 str points.... I know, in heavy combat!!
Also, lets not just fuck around with parashock, we all know that it should be removed from PvP completely as it is the move overpowered and gay piece of shit that has ever graced the NC servers.
Ive got a capped PE, its my third capped PE, and i know how to play a PE, but my PEs my 'fun' class, basically cause PEs are better for dueling with than tanks, im currently playing around with a kami setup but kami downsides massively outweigh the plus sides, so probably gonne dump the kami . . .
PE's arent that massively overpowerd for output by tanks, tanks have a CS, a gat, a CS, and a gat, and oh my god the options for variation are astounding . . . melee is useless for 95% of situations as it currently stands...
PE's get rifles or pistols, they can take a tradeskill if they go pistols aswell, they can take enough hack for belts and OPs, or go res/cst... They get the Lib, Judge, ROLH, TT laserpistol and the Slasher if they drug and go for dex imps, or if their rifles they get the PE, ROG, DOY Raygun, TT laserrifle and ive seen PE's with a FL, Disruptor and SH.
Whenever i duel, i use my PE, at OP wars im on my PPU cause its pretty much nessecary, would like to play my tank from time to time and kill some ppl, or play APU and just lay the smackdown with 105/min attacks and pretty much autoaim . . .
shodanjr_gr
28-11-03, 23:19
Way to go Fenix. Couldnt have said it better myself. I bet ya that 1 month after u have nerfed ppus, everyone will be screaming at KK and asking for the class back...
Asking for ppus back? very likely. If i would get three wishes
removing PPUs from neocron would come before world peace.
I agree with the changes, except the APU nerfs. If you decrease the damage, then why decrease the RoF? Giving APUs a HL with 70/min is like giving them a Silent Hunter with no range. Shoot it once, looks like it's a really powerful weapon, then you realise that because it shoots really slowly it's no better than a Wyatt Earp over time. OK so maybe SH isn't that bad but you get the point.
Also PvM is not an argument against self-cast shields. Before PPUs all mobs could be killed solo, the only reason mobs are as powerful as they are now is because with PPUs, everything became too easy. Remember how KK lowered the damage of high level mobs when they applied the 50% foreign cast shield nerf? Though aside from that, I do agree that it wouldn't work. It would be good to see APUs having to work as support classes instead of turning into tanks when PPUs are around, but overall with PEs and PPUs it probably wouldn't work out.
And Judge, PE offence is nearly as bad as some people claim. A Lib is less powerful than a CS, true, but a Lib is more powerful than a SpeedGun, and Lib is THE best monk killing weapon in the game, which gives PEs an advantage at monkacron OP wars. Tank AoE is a joke.
shodanjr_gr
28-11-03, 23:32
Originally posted by Rade
Asking for ppus back? very likely. If i would get three wishes
removing PPUs from neocron would come before world peace.
Look Rade, we all recognise the fact that u r a very good duelists and generally a very good and adaptable player.
BUT
Most people arent. Most people die in NC. And most people actually dont have the time to waste when they die in NC. PPUs make amends for that. PPUs make sure that OP wars last longer than 3 min. That they require "some" strategy. That people dont die and then GR back to their apps and log off. If there were no PPUs in NC, the situation would be A lot different, to the worst.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Look Rade, we all recognise the fact that u r a very good duelists and generally a very good and adaptable player.
BUT
Most people arent. Most people die in NC. And most people actually dont have the time to waste when they die in NC. PPUs make amends for that. PPUs make sure that OP wars last longer than 3 min. That they require "some" strategy. That people dont die and then GR back to their apps and log off. If there were no PPUs in NC, the situation would be A lot different, to the worst.
They should get some skills then :rolleyes:
shodan, I had alot more fun in OP wars and while leveling when I
was a noob and there was virtually no monks with rezz. I was a
noob in the beginning of retail and did what noobs do best, I
died. Alot. In OP wars, in sewers, at MB and in canyons. To PKers
and Mobs split pretty much 50/50. That was hellalot more fun
than the mindless leveling people do now, you dont even try to
take cover when you have a ppu with you, why bother. Just
squat infront of the doomreaper and hold your trigger down, then
move on to the next. Daoc/EQ/AO/etc combat is more exciting
than this, which is a shame. PPU destroys everything that was
good about neocron and moves it to the bottom of the mmorpg
pile.
**edit: Back when there were no ress no one whined about it,
death was a semi-serious thing and you just really tried to avoid
dying, now suddenly everyone acts like death used to be the
ende of the world just because they dont want their char to get
nerfed. It was never a big deal really, no risk equals no fun.
If people didn't get so brainless when it comes to fighting they wouldn't die very often. Watch 3 people in the Chaos Caves without a PPU? Think it's not possible? It's easy, you just have to use your head and go back to heal when you need to. With PPUs around, everybody just stands still so that the PPU doesn't have to do any work to heal them. Watch what happens when people, with no PPU, are fighting, and then a PPU turns up. They've done 5 runs already with nobody dying once, but as soon as a PPU shows up, people start dying, because they run straight at the mobs and expect Holy Heal to save them. If it doesn't then they get rezzed, so who cares? PPUs nerf fun.
shodanjr_gr
28-11-03, 23:48
Well,my point is, i dont see the fun in prepping for an OP war for 15 minutes, going there and dying in 5 min, then have to spend another 15 minutes getting repoked only to go there and find noone cause the battle has ended. Samething with mob hunting.
Especially now that GRs are locked and u usually have to run/drive thru half the map to get to a leveling ground, only to die to a lag spike, or some idiotic mob that spawned behind u. I dont see any fun in that. And believe me, im leveling a rifle PE on Uranus when i got time. And it aint fun to die to WBs that spawn right behind my back when i die.
shelters and deflectors and not what keeps a ppu alive its his heals. a ppu with store brought shelter and deflector and 5 slot holy heal will be a dam sight more effective than a ppu with the oppisite set up imho.
nerf heals and you nerf ppus, self cast shelter and def erm..... ok i had this idea and a few others about 2-3 months ago, its inpractical.
pes are better equiped for dueling than tanks but tanks are better for op warfare, unfortuneatly apus are even better than tanks in op warfare and on equal terms with tanks for dueling.
in my experiance anyway, tanks are obsolite even the history of nc states this fact, hopefully the new flamer will actually be good becuase we all know plasma waves are TOTALLY FUCKING SHIT.
Originally posted by Scikar
If people didn't get so brainless when it comes to fighting they wouldn't die very often. Watch 3 people in the Chaos Caves without a PPU? Think it's not possible? It's easy, you just have to use your head and go back to heal when you need to. With PPUs around, everybody just stands still so that the PPU doesn't have to do any work to heal them. Watch what happens when people, with no PPU, are fighting, and then a PPU turns up. They've done 5 runs already with nobody dying once, but as soon as a PPU shows up, people start dying, because they run straight at the mobs and expect Holy Heal to save them. If it doesn't then they get rezzed, so who cares? PPUs nerf fun.
If your carefull you can solo the CRP caves with a PE . . . Have done using mine, using own buffs and a TT laserpistol
Talkin with scikar on irc about APU,s and then relooking at my list above, doing all those hits to a APU is overkill, however i still firmly believe its either/or so it would either be a damage output hit to APUs or a ROF hit . . . and i still believe that APU spells should be Line of Sight . . .
Shadow Dancer
29-11-03, 00:11
Fenix why are you changing your kami setup? I thought u were 0wning with it.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Well,my point is, i dont see the fun in prepping for an OP war for 15 minutes, going there and dying in 5 min, then have to spend another 15 minutes getting repoked only to go there and find noone cause the battle has ended. Samething with mob hunting.
Especially now that GRs are locked and u usually have to run/drive thru half the map to get to a leveling ground, only to die to a lag spike, or some idiotic mob that spawned behind u. I dont see any fun in that. And believe me, im leveling a rifle PE on Uranus when i got time. And it aint fun to die to WBs that spawn right behind my back when i die.
But it was fun, alot more fun than what we have now. When it ws
a hassle to get a proper force going and the fight would be over
semi-quick people were playing with their heads and the
anticipation and adrenaline rush was so much higher. This was of
course also due to belt drops (which I also want back).
Punisher-X
29-11-03, 00:25
I agree with Rade here. Op wars and pvp in general was waaaaaaaay more fun a year + ago. You had to try your damndest not to die at an OP fight, cuz then ur side would be minus one player for 10 minutes....the way it is now, u die, and 6 seconds later u are rezzd and ready to go again.....no skill needed at all.
Make rezz only work in non-warzones :D
Shadow Dancer
29-11-03, 00:26
Originally posted by Punisher-X
I agree with Rade here. Op wars and pvp in general was waaaaaaaay more fun a year + ago. You had to try your damndest not to die at an OP fight, cuz then ur side would be minus one player for 10 minutes....the way it is now, u die, and 6 seconds later u are rezzd and ready to go again.....no skill needed at all.
Make rezz only work in non-warzones :D
Yea but there was no locked GRs back then. lol
Before locked GRs there were few OP fights because ninja hacking was so much easier, and taking an OP was easy since all you had to do was GR in, then hack while camping the GR. By the time the owners could respond the OP was lost, the new owners plant turrets everywhere and dig in to fight for it. Not that I'm going OT or anything...
Just remove parashock theres no need for it!!!!!!
1-Remove it no extra manna bullshit! REMOVE IT!
2- PPus say its for defence but there so invincable anyway why the hell they need parashock?
3-It ruins PvP which is all thats left in the game~!
4- Its the main ppu problem i feel and altho i dont play so much anymore it really pissed me off i dont care if people are invincable as long as i can run!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cos with para ur glued to floor and ur gonna get ganked no matter what.
REMOVE THE PARA!!!!!!!!! CANT YOU ALL SEE?
GO ON PPUS GO MOAN ALL U PLAY PPUS TO BE INVINCABLE WELL YOU STILL CAN BE, BUT BEING INVINCABLE DOESENT MEAN YOU SHOULD MAKE ANYONE IN SIGHT WALK REDICULOUSLY SLOW!
yEAH^
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
Do it
Do it now
Please :p
Today alone 4 good fights I have been in have been completely ruined by PPUs coming in and freezing me. Then I just zone or GR because theres no sense in fighting.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Ive got a capped PE, its my third capped PE, and i know how to play a PE, but my PEs my 'fun' class, basically cause PEs are better for dueling with than tanks, im currently playing around with a kami setup but kami downsides massively outweigh the plus sides, so probably gonne dump the kami . . .
If you know how to play a PE then you will admit that it takes alot more thought to set up a PE than it does a Tank.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
PE's arent that massively overpowerd for output by tanks, tanks have a CS, a gat, a CS, and a gat, and oh my god the options for variation are astounding . . . melee is useless for 95% of situations as it currently stands...
Damage output isn't the same as damage variation. If you want to complain about that then why don't you complain about Spies because they can use more weapons than then PE without drugging and are more effective with them. Hey, I'm not talking about how many different types of guns tanks get I'm talking about how much damage they do normally.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
PE's get rifles or pistols, they can take a tradeskill if they go pistols aswell, they can take enough hack for belts and OPs, or go res/cst... They get the Lib, Judge, ROLH, TT laserpistol and the Slasher if they drug and go for dex imps, or if their rifles they get the PE, ROG, DOY Raygun, TT laserrifle and ive seen PE's with a FL, Disruptor and SH.
So are we talking about PvP here? Because if we are then the RoLH is going to be nerfed for PEs next patch, due to the PE PA taking more dex to use. TT laser pistol in PvP? Okay..... Slasher, 113 dex right.... that is whats known as gimped.
As for rifles for PEs only the PE and RoG are viable for PvP.... possibly FL, Disruptor or SH with a Kami, but then you have the defence of a wet paper towel.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Whenever i duel, i use my PE, at OP wars im on my PPU cause its pretty much nessecary, would like to play my tank from time to time and kill some ppl, or play APU and just lay the smackdown with 105/min attacks and pretty much autoaim . . .
Yes, well done, PEs are better at duelling. Tanks are better than PEs when caught unbuffed and are better at OP wars, so whats your point? It your choice to play a PPU at OP wars, lots of people use Tanks very effectively at OPs... just not as well as APU which is because of their massive range.
I dont like the Idea of bringing shelter and deflector break ammo in
by the time everyone will have such ammo and ammo mods.
so the shelter and def brings nothing.
u dont need that ammo
PPUs are hard to kill but thats how it should be and its not impossible u can kill a ppu even without apus.
Just Think about it
shodanjr_gr
29-11-03, 01:03
Originally posted by Rade
But it was fun, alot more fun than what we have now. When it ws
a hassle to get a proper force going and the fight would be over
semi-quick people were playing with their heads and the
anticipation and adrenaline rush was so much higher. This was of
course also due to belt drops (which I also want back).
u dont understand rade, u want to kick PPUs out, u want to get belt drops out and make everyone drop a single item (no hack needed) because simply you>most_of_us . You got skill, me and imho the majority of players do not have the skill to PvP, thus we die. Dying aint fun, u say u die, but u do not die as much as most players do...
Thats why u cant see things from my prespective.
The only reason i dont die that often any more is because i lomed APU to PPU. I got no offence (actually im ok with removing ALL damage from parashock) but i do deserve to get god-like defence in return...
Judge, look me in the eye and tell me theres no problems atall with tanks, Where have i ever said that PE's are shite, Also stop fucking talking down to me like i dont know what the fuck i am doing asif im some newb thats never played before.
Take this to DM if you want to just take my fucking thread off topic, re-read my first post ok, this is mainly about monks, plus the fact that tanks IMO need a boost of some kind, either a new weapon, or something done to the class type in general.
Reading the 'balance' PPU threads that are STILL constantly popping up daily are pissing me off cause people are literally thinking up these fucking crackpot ideas as they type them, doubtfull that theyve ever played the class etc and are probably fairly useless with the main class they use anyway...
I played tank for 10 months, got pretty damn good at playin tank, but their boring, all they can do is shoot shit, got bored of the char and the fact every other fuckin class around me got new toys etc and all overtook the tank at being usefull, couldnt bare to reroll a char ive had for that amount of time tho, so i got a new account, made a spy, didnt geton with it then, so made a PE, same with that, infact i like my PE alot more than my tank, their flexible, so many options to lom to etc, also the solo effectiveness of a PE is much superior to a tank, I can go solo mobs and caves with me PE that i wouldnt even think of doing with me tank
Then after looking at the status of my clan, and the game in general as its HAS turned into monkacron, I got another account and leveld up a monk and lommed over to PPU as there is NO denying that they are nessecary now, neocron has not got to a stage where skill matters, its all about who has the most people/turrets and who has the most APUs/PPUs, a friend of mine cant play neocron atm so im leveling his APU for him, and a few days back another friend left and gave me their account, thats got a spy on there that im also leveling up.
Anyway lets get this back on topic . . .
QuantumDelta
29-11-03, 01:12
This, is gonna be long.
And it ain't gonna be rosey :p
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
ok, guys, can you ALL please jump the fuck off the 'nerf the PPU gravy train' and just put your brains into gear for 5 minutes ? Pleas ? with some sugar on top ?
Depends, personally speaking, beyond parashock I don't see TOO Much wrong with PPUs, but generally speaking they upset Op Wars quite drastically.
Ok, theres some stupid posts ive seen on these forums, and tbh, some of them really make me wanna get a labotomy just so i can start to comprehend some of the shit ideas thats posted on these forums . . .
You know, this strikes me as one of those :p
We all know that monks are causing a problem, we all know that APUs have rediculous damage output and next to no defence, and that PPUs have rediculous defence and next to no offence *thats effective*
"next to no" actually is wrong, PPUs can have a fairly overwhelming defence that can kill anything (and I do mean anything ...other than hybrids and other PPUs....even PEs with capped heals, shelter, and heal sanctum can't out heal a DB+TL8 Para Bolt to the ass for five minutes :p) given time.
APUs defence is actually, pretty decent, FYI.
now theres certain people that are always wanting their class to be on top, wont mention any names or anything .. .
Lots of people seem to want to think of me when they say this, which I find really funny now, I haven't logged onto my Pistol PE more than once in the past two months :p
I play PPU or APU now.
.....Or Tank occasionally....
Or Spy... oh wait, yea, I play everything except PE now...
So dunno who you're talking about, but having to make sure that the rest of the "people" around here understand that me > them in every class o_O
When it comes to bias, at least.
however theres the current craze that people are calling for PPU shelters and deflectors to be made SELF CAST ONLY,
Ya, because it instantly fixes pretty much every single problem in the fights :p
I will explain throughout the course of this post I suspect (...if it is contained to one post and not parsed over a few....) but generally speaking it reverts defences and offences to "duel" settings... with tactical and strategic differences of course.
This makes it far closer to fixed and balanced, because recently KK have decided to balance the whole PvP system more or less around dueling itself.
...Whether some of that is my fault for being so duelist orientated when I first started in Neocron or not, I don't know (I could go into more detail in what I mean but I'll just let it stand as the egotistical comment that it's not that everyone can read and go "haha fuckwit." about....)
now that is the biggest load of codshit ive ever heard, cmon for christs sake,
Well....we'll get to that, but you can hopefully wrap your mind around the idea after I explained it properly....
As in....why it is so perfect....
Tanks would become useless as PE's can get much better defence than them,
This, while is somewhat true, you forget three very important things;
Tanks have more firepower, Tanks have More Health, Tanks don't need the speed, in op wars.
Generally speaking, Tank vs PE in an op fight without PPU S/D would be pretty equal (...unless it's extreme range combat...with a rifle PE... but I don't really think many people would complain about Rifles owning at range...would you...?), Why?
Well, PEs will gain 2% PvP Defencive advantage, typically having 6% as a capped shelter reading with 400ish HP, while a Tank will get 8% without shelter, to all resists and have about 530 HP with buff, no drugs and a much more powerful weapon to compensate for the lack of speed.
Like I said, it boils down to be equal, more or less.
The only "overpowered" point about the PE in this scenario is Stealth.
I grant that Stealth would need to be taken out of the PEs reach, or at least be made easier to counter, for this to fly, but, generally speaking I'm not an advocate of PE Stealth anyway, I think it's bullshit that a character as capable as my own PE should be allowed something that basically grants invulnerability for 10 seconds.
APUs would be remotely balanced as theyd hit the ground like a sack of shit,
If they are concentrated on and they don't move and their PPU is shit and doesn't use holy heal, yes, I agree.
But otherwise this comment is also, full of crap :p
My God Damn /35 APU Got attacked by a /70 Rifle PE on Saturn (The PE Shot me first and was buffed) I killed him.
With a Friggin Holy Energy Halo.
APUs will still have ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE offencive but actually, for the first time Lack Defence.
Coupled with the TL 3 Non-Runcastable heal or a Good PPU they are not over powered and not underpowered either.
This is called.....
wait for it :p
Balanced.
spy's still have their range advantage etc,
Generally speaking this is true but they could even come into close range if they were to drug (though I wouldn't recommend it for an op fight), lol, they're actually the only class that loses out on this deal unfairly.
but PPUs would then look even more godlike than the other classes,
As was suggested in the idea, it was one small step along the road.
25% Holy Deflector self cast nerf would have been the next step.
With Damage Boost and TSG/Lib/PE The PPU would be closer to killable (infact, with it like that, DB included it would be the same as the PPU having no Deflector on in the first place, only Holy Heal would keep him alive, and even then, only if he kept moving).
people would get lazy and get too used to fights lasting approx 5 seconds as theres no PPU buffs etc and then want the PPU utterly nerfed to shit....... can nobody see that for christs sake ?
This was my only bitch when we originally developed the concept, so IF YOU READ THE THREAD, PvP and PvM damage would be lowered to maintain some of the PvP Length.
Even then, 5 seconds = only if you're shit.
Then theres PvM, yes all you capped people that only do OP wars now, there are still people out there that fight mobs . . . now come the fucking on ok, you tried doing MC5 without a PPU or 3 behind you ? LMFAO !!! cmon, lets try MC5 with self cast shelters for PPUs and PE's while the tank and APU get nothing . . . yea didnt think you thought of that, or leveling places like chaos caves, elfarid, warbot farming, gaya mines, around gaya at the fire mobs, your gonna have to fuckin start workin there cause of having no PPU etc to buff you up, now imo, this would take the last bit of fun out the game and ill be off, thats 5 accounts down for KKs already dwindling playerbase . . . :rolleyes: you REALLY didn't read the thread because PvM damage was one of the major things to lower, at the start, people even began suggesting that not a lot of mobs would need lowering.
MC5 / Copbots of course, Grims yea, maybe... Warbots lol, all these things...
My PPU Keeps people alive without buffs in most situations to level their CON - unless they are an APU or a Spy in which case I only buff them when they need it.
Unless the player you're defending is an idiot (...which generally means he woulda died anyway) and didn't take any fire armor, or resistance, or any energy armor, or resistance, or have any pierce/force resist, then he would be fine.
The only time I **NEED** to buff the person I am supporting is A) PvP B) PvM when there is more than one person who needs to be supprted.
I will buff them, but only because it makes things a little easier.
People can SOLO as APUs -- places like Chaos Caves.
MC5 Yea, fine down the damage.
now look, dont give me any bullshit biased crap about me having a PPU etc, I also have a tank, PE, spy and APU, played all classes at high level etc, played the game for a year now pretty much daily, so dont try that shit on me. . .
LoL, Wasn't gonna, was just going to say you're being just a TAD Short sighted.
Refering to a few things, not just the concept itself.
I realise that monks are the problem at the moment, only reason i have a PPU and APU atm is because THEY ARE NEEDED because of the state the game has currently got to and i have never really liked playing a monk cause of the way that the neocron game system works . . .
Cough :rolleyes:
IMO this is what needs to be done, and no theres no crackhead ideas about removing heals and making only heal sancts etc, or making shel/def self cast only or reworking a WHOLE player class a year into the fucking retail release . . .
*Reads with baited breath....*
1) Make holy para cost 80 mana to cast, make max ROF around 20/min
Sounds okay.
2) Remove the turning speed hit to your mouse movements from all kinds of para
Sounds okay.
3) Give EACH class some form of hurting a PPU, either make it a seperate weapon like the anti vehicle rockets, or a shelter breaker ammo mod that does less than normal damage but is unaffected by sheilds or deflectors.
They all have them, it's just that 99.99999999% of people are retards.
4) lower the runspeed hit to tanks, lower the staminaburn for tanks, give tanks a alternative to the CS
Read Test Server :rolleyes:
5) Lower APU range ALOT on halo's and Beam's or make all their weapons line of sight or like a Lance, this should stop the old 'run, hide, get hit 5 more times cause of 'animation lag' on the spells..
Read Test Server :rolleyes:
6) Lower APU damage slightly all over, not completely nerf to a bloody pulp with the nerf stick, but just lower it slightly, APUs ALREADY have pretty much instant aim and rediculous ROF, and ontop of that they have regenerating 'ammo' from psi boosters and also cause rediculous damage. . . Just something like a 10-15% hit to their current damage
Most people are aware of this.
7) lower the max ROF on APU spells to around 70/min, 105/min at the damage they cause is unbelievable . . .
I would suggest 6 OR 7, changing both at the same time will = that nerf you are trying to avoid.
now in my opinion that covers all the problems with monks and the personal opinion of whats wrong with tanks . . .
and In My oppinion, you're totally wrong.
please PLEASE cut down on all the 'make shelt and def self cast' ideas as that is just plain stupidity.
No.
Stupidity?
Quite the opposite, infact.
Anyway DO NOT turn this into a flame thread, im serious with these ideas, if you have something to contribute, please think about what your saying, if you want to argue for self cast shelt and def, then please think of a valid point, if you want to suggest something else, please think it through first instead of thinking of the idea as your writing the post, and also if you have the urge to flame me then please take it to direct as i dont want this closed due to flame fighting.
My points are always valid, otherwise I wouldn't make the point at all.
People who question their validity often need to simply refer themselves to my signature, or, need to grab a book and start studying and get that grey matter working.
Point 1;
SC-S/D Means that APUs no longer have great defence AND great offence in an op fight.
Point 2;
SC-S/D Means the PE is no longer useless as anything more than a distraction in an op fight.
Point 3;
SC-S/D Means the Tank, PE, and APU become very close to balanced with eachother, in an op fight.
Point 4;
SC-S/D DOES NOT Mean the PPU is useless in an op fight.
Point 5;
SC-S/D DOES NOT Mean PvM will become impossible, because as was done before (maybe you don't remember?) PvM damage can be changed, to suit the new nature of the game.
Point 6;
SC-S/D DOES NOT Mean PvP will become insanely short, because, as with PvM damage, PvP Damage can be lowered with respects to their previous damage ratios (meaning balance between weapons and classes, all damage can be reduced but will maintain the same "level" of the difference in scale against eachother), which would prolong PvP and allow Holy Heal to have some sway on unsheltered and undeflectored targets.
Point 7;
SC-S/D has no fatal flaw.
People who cannot kill PPUs, are either APUs, or people, who cannot think.
ok QD, I look at your idea, and yknow what strikes me, is that your argument for it is to lower the damage on all weapons, so that then its still around the same etc so that fights wont be over in about 30 seconds, yet the PPUs will be sitting there, only there to rez and combat buff people, however as all weapons have been reduced in damage, pretty much nothing atall would be able to hurt a PPU, atall, unless you have then apu *MONK* there to deshelter then, but then again, with the lowerd damage, and the cast time it takes a good PPU to rebuff and acst a heal, theyr gonna be harder than previous . . .
We wouldn't even need to lower PvP damage. PvP lasts long enough without PPUs, PPUs just make it infinitely long if the two sides are evenly matched.
Mr Friendly
29-11-03, 01:26
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
because simply you>most_of_us .
correction: most "PEs"
QuantumDelta
29-11-03, 01:27
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
ok QD, I look at your idea, and yknow what strikes me, is that your argument for it is to lower the damage on all weapons, so that then its still around the same etc so that fights wont be over in about 30 seconds, yet the PPUs will be sitting there, only there to rez and combat buff people, however as all weapons have been reduced in damage, pretty much nothing atall would be able to hurt a PPU, atall, unless you have then apu *MONK* there to deshelter then, but then again, with the lowerd damage, and the cast time it takes a good PPU to rebuff and acst a heal, theyr gonna be harder than previous . . .
I did note that at the time of writing, but generally speaking, in an op war you are never in a 1on1 situation, so it's a null point.
If you include the fact that the wargas flamer (Rare) on test is gonna feckin pwnz0r ppus, every class has a way of killing PPUs.
Did you know that DB instantly "debuffs" a target, making it's defence LOWER than foreign cast S/D Boosts?
If you were to compare this to PPU defence, DBing a PPU, is practically the same as debuffing him.
his buffs after debuff actually afford LESS Defence than Foreign cast PPU buffs (pre DB).
If you combine THIS with the deflector malus, a well timed TL 3 Heal wont mean a PPU going "aww man that's a drag." it'll mean a PPU going " ....................I'm about, to die....."
Or you could read scikar's comment :p
That was my other thought.
"PvP is short?" lol...
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
u dont understand rade, u want to kick PPUs out, u want to get belt drops out and make everyone drop a single item (no hack needed) because simply you>most_of_us . You got skill, me and imho the majority of players do not have the skill to PvP, thus we die. Dying aint fun, u say u die, but u do not die as much as most players do...
Thats why u cant see things from my prespective.
The only reason i dont die that often any more is because i lomed APU to PPU. I got no offence (actually im ok with removing ALL damage from parashock) but i do deserve to get god-like defence in return...
Im not some kind of superhuman, I die quite alot, and since I
almost always go solo I never get a rezz. I bet I die and
release 5 times as often as most people do compared to
playing time. I dont mind. I also wouldnt mind dropping my 4 slot
RoLH, that would give me a reason to actually hunt something
every now and then, with items not dropping the economy gets
stale and theres no reason to hunt because you will never lose
anything so you dont need to get extra stuff and definately
never use non-rares.
But back to PPUs, no, you dont deserve to be invincible, no one
does. Im totally in agreement with Pete in this matter, the
solution to PPUs is a serious nerf in effectiveness of blessed and
holy S/D/H. They are supposed to die every now and then and
they are not supposed to pop their friends up to fully healed in
an instant. PPUs dont just remove the fun from the game with
their parashock, its also a case of you struggling a long time to
put a serious dent in someones health, and then someone comes
along and nullifies several minutes of hard effort in an instant,
and he doesnt even have to work for it, its the easiest god damn
thing in the world for him.
Everytime a PPU comes into PP or whereever and completely
destroys the fight I get amazed, I mean, seriously, do you
think "today Im going to spoil the game for everyone, even my
friends!". I cant find any other explanation, but to every PPU that
waltzes into pepper park with a ugly grin on their face and
happily paraspams everyone to death; Fuck you and everything
you stand for.
Originally posted by Rade
But back to PPUs, no, you dont deserve to be invincible, no one
does. Im totally in agreement with Pete in this matter, the
solution to PPUs is a serious nerf in effectiveness of blessed and
holy S/D/H. They are supposed to die every now and then and
they are not supposed to pop their friends up to fully healed in
an instant.
Hey wait a minute, I never said they need a serious nerf in effectivness for s/d/h. I just think the effectiveness needs to be lowered a little. A few patches ago, I think it was the patch that fixed shelters, increased s/d/h effectiveness. Now before it was changed I think it was fine and it should be lowered back to what it was before that patch.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
First of all, halos already have shitty range, you wanna lower it further?
Secondly, you wanna drop apu rof from 105 to a whopping 70/min WITH a damage decrease on top of that? :rolleyes:
That's like dropping liberator rof from 370 to 230. That's not a tweak, that's a tremendous sledgehammmer nerf.
IMO there is nothing wrong with tanks other than their AOE. Their AOE should be boosted, that's pretty much it.
AS for the monk situation, you'll just be making apus crap solo play without a PPU, and PPUs will still be tremendously needed and overimportant. So now I don't think your "plan" helps anything.
Halo's have a pretty decent range in fact have a range capped of 182 meters which is a good range for a psi spell unless u wanna snipe :D
how would \\Fényx// idea would nerf apu's for solo hunting, they would only take a bit longer to kill stuff and be more balanced in pvp, and also u must not play a tank much
they suck in pvp atm unless ur just doing 1 v 1 pvp compared to a PE or APU especially if there is a ppu around
QuantumDelta
29-11-03, 03:19
Originally posted by Shakari
they suck in pvp atm unless ur just doing 1 v 1 pvp compared to a PE or APU especially if there is a ppu around
lol...
You know PE vs Tank = "Equal" and APU vs Tank = "Equal"
But, PE + PPU vs Tank + PPU = Tank Side Wins.
...But, APU + PPU vs Tank + PPU = APU Side Wins.
...But, APU + PPU vs PE + PPU = PE Side *COULD* Win....maybe.
...Typically I'd put the last bought down to the APU Side if all things in terms of skill were even..
KRIMINAL99
29-11-03, 03:22
I agree its a dumb idea, but im not even remotely worried that KK would consider something like that.
Originally posted by petek480
Hey wait a minute, I never said they need a serious nerf in effectivness for s/d/h. I just think the effectiveness needs to be lowered a little. A few patches ago, I think it was the patch that fixed shelters, increased s/d/h effectiveness. Now before it was changed I think it was fine and it should be lowered back to what it was before that patch.
<3 said it before, i'll say it again, nerf heals (which was said somewhere in this thread) all this convoluted bullshit of 250 different ways to do this that and the other, is total bollox tbh, if a PPU can outheal 5 people attacking him, LETS NERF HIS/HER SHELTER OMG GOOD IDEA, I'M 1337 RAWR I'MAR POST THIS ON TEH FORUM COZ I R 1337 AND TEH PPU HATORS WILL AGREE WIV ME!!!11oneoneone
Nerf the heal, PPU can outheal a 2 or 3, no more though, he would be taking more damage than his 40-50 per tick could recover :rolleyes:
Pete, the patch you are talking about fixed a bug in Shelters, they were all the same no matter if shop made or artifact, the defence was fixed rate, he change addressed that. And you stole my wife </3
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Pete, the patch you are talking about fixed a bug in Shelters, they were all the same no matter if shop made or artifact, the defence was fixed rate, he change addressed that. And you stole my wife </3
I thought before that patch shelters after 300% damage were all the same, but they fixed it so it can go past 300%. So if they can just lowered s/d strenght when capped to how it was before that patch or close to it, people might stop complaining about some ppus being god liked.
nah, all stuck at 370% or something silly like that, so a PPU who could only just use a holy shelter, had the same shelter defence.. as you :) now you have the full defense usage of your shelter, but foriegn cast ones are broke 50% to prevent over powering, but, some people are never happy and want that to be... 0% O_o SURE, TAKE OUT THE APPARITION WITHOUT A HOLY SHELTER/HEAL LOLROFLLMAOPIMP etc.. hehehe, pete's teh daddy :p
Shadow Dancer
29-11-03, 03:48
Pete I don't think that actually boosted the ppu's defense. More like making you need a high % on shelter to get the defense they already had.
I wish KK would try self-cast shields.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Pete I don't think that actually boosted the ppu's defense. More like making you need a high % on shelter to get the defense they already had.
I wish KK would try self-cast shields.
I remeber testing out the changes to the shelter after the patced. My defenses improved by like 25%. I was able to outheal multiple libs while running and heal and outheal multiple speed gats just standing there. I wasn't able to do that before the patch.
Shadow Dancer
29-11-03, 03:52
OMG NERF!
:p
K, I`m not gonna post about anything monkish now. I have no idea and my suggestions are crap cause noone never comments them so I`ll just stop to do so :p .
What I want to know is: Why is there so many that are so obsessed that fights should last long? You can be carefull and live a long time without being ubarbuffed. It just requires different tactics. If you are unlucky or stupid and gets killed after 1 minute, tough luck. For me the excitement originates more from the build-up than the actuall fight. When the fight starts most things are pretty clear. You shoot,kill or die. Imagine if surprise attacks were better awarded. Imagine the suspence as you sneak your way to outflank or surprise an enemy knowing that your plan can come crashing down on you if you are seen to early or unlucky. To achive this people must be easier to kill.
When I`m at an op fight now it is almost as watching a scene from the patriot. People standing in lines firing like crazy. There is no movement to speak of no point of flanking cause almost any amount of surprise of an attack is absorbed in a teams ability to take damage.
Wouldnt a situation where a teams ability to take damage has been reduced just force player to use different tactics, bringing more movement, more franticness, preventing people clogging up(specuulation: perhaps better fps as people are more spread out) and more possible tactics to play with? (All this in my mind=fun)
Wouldnt such a situation reward the clan who sets up a good poking support team and expand the op winning tactics from just the battle itself and in the process make the poker a more priced tradeskill to a clan?
Wouldnt such a situation where good tactics and movement are rewarded more put more weight to overall need for a clan to stay hidden during buildup and reconspies would be able to direct and plan attacks instead of just confirming what almost everytime is obvious: Yea they are there.
Wouldnt a situation where a teams staying power has been reduced(reduced defence) cause op strategy to evolve a little?
For example attacking an op with no beachhead(close by op for your poking team to patch people up and launch new waves of attack) would be more difficult and require you put more manpower in the first attack just to get that all important beachhead.
I thought about your idea QD and I ask you monkexperts if I got it this right:
If we say that S/D is self cast only, ppus would keep their ability to godlike selfdefence right? Ppus would still have the ability to ress, damage boost, heal and increase resists and combatbuffs of their friends or enemies. These are all powerfull abilities and even without being able to S/D others having a ppu would be a great advantage. Ppus would still have an important role in the outcome of the battle just in a different and not such a profound way. Different in that they would have less time to react as people would die faster making ppuing a little more fastpaced and challenging.
If I got this right why on earth is making S/D selfbuff only so terrible? It seems pretty reasonable to me as I want people to die quicker. Come to think of it, what do a ppu loose from all this? His ability to keep people alive is reduced. Thats all. I`m aware that this would need some additional balancing of other classes, but the basic idea seems good to me.
If I got it wrong: What did I get wrong?
I dont really see no reason to do anything with PvP or PvM damage either. Most I know of solo most mobs with ease and if people start dropping quicker I think that is just fine.
My four questions is just to show what I think we we possibly miss out of with ppus being so powerfull.
Originally posted by Mirco
If we say that S/D is self cast only, ppus would keep their ability to godlike selfdefence right? Ppus would still have the ability to ress, damage boost, heal and increase resists and combatbuffs of their friends or enemies. These are all powerfull abilities and even without being able to S/D others having a ppu would be a great advantage. Ppus would still have an important role in the outcome of the battle just in a different and not such a profound way. Different in that they would have less time to react as people would die faster making ppuing a little more fastpaced and challenging.
If I got this right why on earth is making S/D selfbuff only so terrible? It seems pretty reasonable to me as I want people to die quicker. Come to think of it, what do a ppu loose from all this? His ability to keep people alive is reduced. Thats all. I`m aware that this would need some additional balancing of other classes, but the basic idea seems good to me.
Yes! Selfcastonly wouldnt take anything from anybody. PPUs still cant die and APUs would still do insane damage. But both together wouldnt be the uber weapon anymore!
And every other class (also the Hybrid) would be boosted! Isnt that what all people wish?
edit: I forgot to mention that even if PvM would become harder, it surely would be possible for KK to lower Mob-damage if necessary.
Originally posted by Rade
Asking for ppus back? very likely. If i would get three wishes
removing PPUs from neocron would come before world peace.
omg you said it all! i dont want to quote all of your posts, but i have to say: fucking 100% agree!
*remembers the old days when you could take out 5-6 people in an op war without being monk, because you simply were GOOD enough to do it and no ppu imbalanced the situation*
and btw: i miss the old drop system aswell! perhaps items in the inventory shouldnt be safe but the belts took loads of risk & fun out of pvp :/
Originally posted by vokuhila
omg you said it all! i dont want to quote all of your posts, but i have to say: fucking 100% agree!
*remembers the old days when you could take out 5-6 people in an op war without being monk, because you simply were GOOD enough to do it and no ppu imbalanced the situation*
Exactly that would be the situation again with only selfcastshields :)
PPUs have their right to exist and people even cried for them when only hybrids were viable. Its only their influence that is inbalanced atm. I would really welcome selfcastshields, i dont know any better or simplier solution.
Originally posted by mehirc
Exactly that would be the situation again with only selfcastshields :)
PPUs have their right to exist and people even cried for them when only hybrids were viable. Its only their influence that is inbalanced atm. I would really welcome selfcastshields, i dont know any better or simplier solution.
Exactly, I just hope KK tries it out. Doing this would also give people a real reason to be a hybrid again. Not sure if that would be a good thing or not though.
Originally posted by petek480
Exactly, I just hope KK tries it out. Doing this would also give people a real reason to be a hybrid again. Not sure if that would be a good thing or not though.
It would be a good thing. If there were more hybrids around then people like hinch would realise that nobody's going to fall for them claiming hybrids are destroyed and need boosting. :)
Neocron has a problem, and PPUs are the source of the problem IMO.
They've just ruined lots of pvp, in my opinion, if you have a ppu with you, your CON or any other setups dont really matter anymore.
shodanjr_gr
29-11-03, 16:12
Originally posted by Rade
Im not some kind of superhuman, I die quite alot, and since I
almost always go solo I never get a rezz. I bet I die and
release 5 times as often as most people do compared to
playing time. I dont mind. I also wouldnt mind dropping my 4 slot
RoLH, that would give me a reason to actually hunt something
every now and then, with items not dropping the economy gets
stale and theres no reason to hunt because you will never lose
anything so you dont need to get extra stuff and definately
never use non-rares.
If u have the tons of free time to spare into hunting and leveling its fine. Some people (me included) cant spend 2 hours a day (at least) needed to get out and hunt for parts and trade and level. Im at the last class of high school and i only got time for 1 hour of play (some days i dont play at all). Dying and wasting 15-20 min of that time getting repoked etc etc is totally out of the question to me, and i believe to a lot of people.
But back to PPUs, no, you dont deserve to be invincible, no one
does. Im totally in agreement with Pete in this matter, the
solution to PPUs is a serious nerf in effectiveness of blessed and
holy S/D/H. They are supposed to die every now and then and
they are not supposed to pop their friends up to fully healed in
an instant. PPUs dont just remove the fun from the game with
their parashock, its also a case of you struggling a long time to
put a serious dent in someones health, and then someone comes
along and nullifies several minutes of hard effort in an instant,
and he doesnt even have to work for it, its the easiest god damn
thing in the world for him.
NO NO NO. Nerf blessed and holy s/d/h???What are u thinking? We got 45 con, which means not a lot of health, we got no way of fighting back to scare our attackers off. U want us to drop our shields now? And our heal, the only thing that keeps us alive???
No we are not supposed to die now and then. A solo ppu is only supposed to die to an organised team of players and NOT to a single or 2 pes that shoot at him, its just not logical. Just think of it. Nerf PPUs holy s/d/h and sudenly, the PE gets the best defences in the game, which is not logical, considering that they are a class with a considerable attack capability.
Everytime a PPU comes into PP or whereever and completely destroys the fight I get amazed, I mean, seriously, do you think "today Im going to spoil the game for everyone, even my friends!". I cant find any other explanation, but to every PPU that waltzes into pepper park with a ugly grin on their face and
happily paraspams everyone to death; Fuck you and everything
you stand for.
As i said, i agree with nerfing parashock (duration should get lower, ROF should get lower, mana cost should be increased, damage should be removed). But going into PP and healing faction members and clanmates is absolutely logical. And it aint ruining anyones game, it makes it more fun because u dont die 5 sec after u step in the zone.
And as i said Rade, u>us
why do you think everybody should have the same chances in pvp? when somebody is really much better than somebody else, why shouldnt he have the better chances to win? i think we all should play roulette instead....
shodanjr_gr
29-11-03, 20:05
Fine, so lets make the game fun for the few that can manage PvP and crap for the rest that cant. Thats a way to keep it running...
Well, regardless of the changes i still love neocron, ill support it even if i dont agree with what most of you say.
For the record i think self cast shelters/fleccys are lame, but again, whatever you want.
perhaps these people simply should LEARN it? If you want to play a game where you can win without even being able to aim, play daoc! neocron is a type of MMORPGFPS, where you should be able to win because of both: setups AND skill!
Originally posted by vokuhila
perhaps these people simply should LEARN it? If you want to play a game where you can win without even being able to aim, play daoc! neocron is a type of MMORPGFPS, where you should be able to win because of both: setups AND skill!
95% of people have the same cookie setup, and yes i do believe that skill should be a element in who wins rather than who has the most people, but atm that aint gonna change, it all biols down to who has the most monks
Removing PPUs is not the way forward, making s/d self cast will make people too used to killing unbuffed people, making them lazy, and making PPUs stand out amongst the crowd as even more godlike . . . and im sure you dont want that to happen, everyone agrees (i hope) that holy para is the main problem, being parad removes ANY skill involved on your behalf atall as you can not aim, you can not move, you cant do anything other than do a cheeky 'sex' in local and die . . . thats it . . . you aint killin any armies while holy parad fullstop.
Para is clearly a part of the problem. Another part of the problem is ressing. I`ve been a rifle spy and what I did then was that I attacked people from far away. During op-fights I sometimes managed to gank someone who got careless and a little away from the main group. I might just as well not have bothered. Some ppu would be on the scene and ress him/her. Why not ressing spells have some big, big drawback like taking forever or making the ppu extremely vulnurable while doing so is beyond me. It is such a powerfull spell.
I want to make it impossible for a group with ppus to withstand the large amounts of damage they do now.
Two aoe spamming tanks should be able to wear down any group with buffs who is stupid enough to stand there and take it pretty fast forcing them to shatter and move more.
The damage/defence ratio feels roughly like this now:
Damage:---------------
Defence:--------------
I want it to be roughly like this:
Damage:---------------
Defence:--------
This is why I think the S/D selfcast idea is good. It reduces the ability for non-ppus to take damage and would make people think up new and hopefully more mobile tactics. Ppus on the other hand would still be as hard to take down as they are now(in my mind a good enough reward and justification for the ppu being pure), but they wont be able to keep others alive as long. Now this would cause Ppus to go from being main targets to support characters cause taking them out wouldnt be so important. Now one would be able to concentrate on killing the offensive units first and Ppus would then be mop-ups if you succed.
Lowering ability to take damage would also make alot of spies happy as their ranged attack would get some more impact and I would guess droners would like it as well. Havent seen many drones lately come to think of it. Perhaps APC would find a use also giving people protection from long range fire as you close in on a target. No one needs that now.
Fényx, I wonder what you mean by: " making s/d self cast will make people too used to killing unbuffed people, making them lazy"?
Won`t they all be very buisy trying to stay alive and avoiding danger instead of just standing pretty much in one little area?
I just thought about what made me like counter-strike so much. It was that you where on the edge the whole time. One little mistake and you where out. When you got that wonder round where you kill the last 4 enemies 1 vs 4 it just made the experience even greater. There is not much edge left in Neocron PvP.
Good job Fenyx, I agree with you 100%.
Originally posted by Scikar
If people didn't get so brainless when it comes to fighting they wouldn't die very often. Watch 3 people in the Chaos Caves without a PPU? Think it's not possible? It's easy, you just have to use your head and go back to heal when you need to. With PPUs around, everybody just stands still so that the PPU doesn't have to do any work to heal them. Watch what happens when people, with no PPU, are fighting, and then a PPU turns up. They've done 5 runs already with nobody dying once, but as soon as a PPU shows up, people start dying, because they run straight at the mobs and expect Holy Heal to save them. If it doesn't then they get rezzed, so who cares? PPUs nerf fun.
Heh 3 people without a ppu? How about 2 low level melee tanks? We cleared out that cave twice all on our own! I was like /47 and my buddy was about /42 at the time (He didn't even have a rare melee, was using long laserblade 2).
The game is very possible without PPUs. In fact I tend to die in caves more with a PPU around because I expect the PPU to heal me when I am in trouble. Most times I realize the heal isn't coming and duck behind a corner, but sometimes it's hard to hide in time. Especially with a last minute leg shot.
So yes, as much as I like PPUs, I honestly think they should be nerfed to be a support class, not a critical class. Either that or removed from the game completely, but that would bring about further imbalances as APUs and Spies will instantly drop to the lowest status. And PEs will not be much better off. And Tanks will once again rule this game. So this needs to be treated VERY VERY carefully so as not to unbalance the current very delicate but slight imbalance we have.
P.S. I want my melee boosted damnit! I know it's being tested on test server, but I want it on retail. IMO Melee should do the most damage per hit in this game as it has so many drawbacks. Melee weapons break very very fast. (My Blade of Ceres can take maybe 10 minutes of continual usage before breaking). They need to get REALLY REALLY REALLY close to the target. (So don't whine you pistolleros :D). And they have a pretty low RoF compared to most other weapons. With all these disadvantages I think if I manage to live long enough to close in up close and personal with my enemy I should have at least a chance. I mean if I'm going up against any class odds are unless I was lucky, I'm down to half my life by the time I'm there (Assuming normal conditions where the enemy is retreating/dodging while shooting, not just standing there waiting for you to kill them).
So what you would like to do though would be to IMO nerf APUs more since we have a few seconds to get shots off if we dont have a PPU with us? Since we would have to be closer and hit more times as you yourself if I have your tag right took like 11 HL shots to be killed I shot a PE in PA last night at least 15 times in neofrag the prick still didnt die. he was self buffed where I died in 4 shots to a PE with a PE whoa lol anyway 4 shots to 15 shots do the math I had not buffs
You are talking about the nerf gravy train yet nerfing APUS is your fix to half the prob. my max range is like 260+ a little in range if I remember correctly and I am trying to RP my character so not ALL my points are in Psi Use
Maybe instead though put a max litteraly of how many points can be put into a skill then they could control it better as to any classes max damage. you know PC 170 max Agg Psi 170 and balance stuff like that
bah thats pretty stupid now that I look at it but Ill post it anyway maybe someone can come up with a worth while idea from this if not sory your eye are bleeding from it get a tissue and forget it happend
shodanjr_gr
30-11-03, 11:55
Originally posted by vokuhila
perhaps these people simply should LEARN it? If you want to play a game where you can win without even being able to aim, play daoc! neocron is a type of MMORPGFPS, where you should be able to win because of both: setups AND skill!
Not ALL people can master a game....dont u see??
Lots of people dont have the time to train again and again in using their characters, so they can be effecient in PVP. Rade and an elite of other players (whom i respect a lot), have the time to train, thus they are becoming efficient. Remove the PPUs (or nerf em to hell and back) and u will make the game even more fun for that small elite, and less fun for most of the others...
shodanjr_gr
30-11-03, 11:57
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
95% of people have the same cookie setup, and yes i do believe that skill should be a element in who wins rather than who has the most people, but atm that aint gonna change, it all biols down to who has the most monks
Removing PPUs is not the way forward, making s/d self cast will make people too used to killing unbuffed people, making them lazy, and making PPUs stand out amongst the crowd as even more godlike . . . and im sure you dont want that to happen, everyone agrees (i hope) that holy para is the main problem, being parad removes ANY skill involved on your behalf atall as you can not aim, you can not move, you cant do anything other than do a cheeky 'sex' in local and die . . . thats it . . . you aint killin any armies while holy parad fullstop.
What he said exactly...way to go fenix....
Beanie McChimp
30-11-03, 21:02
imo everything is fine with all clases except the fucking spy. The spy has constantly been ignored and overlooked while everyother clases gets overpowered or cool new shit
FIX THE FECKING SPY
The spy has gotten more new stuff than any other class and are
also now quite capable of fighting, droning, tradeskilling or a mix.
They can stand up to PEs and Tanks in close combat if they chose
such a setup.
Exactly what more do you want? Powerword: Kill?
Shadow Dancer
30-11-03, 23:04
Originally posted by Rade
Powerword: Kill?
:lol:
I agree with you Beanie, I think the spy could use a boost.
[D]estructro
30-11-03, 23:11
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
4) lower the runspeed hit to tanks, lower the staminaburn for tanks, give tanks a alternative to the CS
[/I] [/B]
You nuts? They already to slow!!
cmon for christs sake, Tanks would become useless as PE's can get much better defence than them, APUs would be remotely balanced as theyd hit the ground like a sack of shit, spy's still have their range advantage etc, but PPUs would then look even more godlike than the other classes, people would get lazy and get too used to fights lasting approx 5 seconds as theres no PPU buffs etc and then want the PPU utterly nerfed to shit....... can nobody see that for christs sake ?
Holy Heal
shodanjr_gr
30-11-03, 23:14
Originally posted by Beanie McChimp
imo everything is fine with all clases except the fucking spy. The spy has constantly been ignored and overlooked while everyother clases gets overpowered or cool new shit
FIX THE FECKING SPY
IMHO spies should get less INT but far more PSI (after all they are supposed to be the second best psi users in NC). That would balance em a lot.
Psycho Killa
30-11-03, 23:15
Um... I dont think spies need a boost rather spy weapons such as drones need atleast to get the bugs fixed and either a slight damage output boost or an armor boost because its not fun to lose a drone that u had to go find a resser and constructer for blowin up in half a second by an apu.
Unless they tweaked sniper rifles since last time i seen them in action they need a decent tweaking also.
Shadow Dancer
30-11-03, 23:23
Originally posted by [D]estructro
You nuts? They already to slow!!
He said lower the runspeed HIT. Meaning he wants tanks to move faster with their weapon out.
There should be a str based tool/spell/whotever that makes you
immobile but also makes you able to take a shitload more
damage. Sorta like a holy shelter whith a included legshot :D.
There could be a whole line of them, the lower tl the lower the
runspeed hit but also lower damage reduction, while the highest
one makes you completely immobile but also reduces a feckload
of damage.
**edit: oh yah and bump tank ae damage by like 50%.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
3) Give EACH class some form of hurting a PPU
It's called a tl 3 heal and an explosive gat/lib/pe. :D No seriously, this works like a charm. Ask Wraith Nightcaster.
QuantumDelta
01-12-03, 00:09
Originally posted by evs
Holy Heal
That's the beauty of it.
Yeap.
You've seen what I was aiming for ;)
Originally posted by Saza
It's called a tl 3 heal and an explosive gat/lib/pe. :D No seriously, this works like a charm. Ask Wraith Nightcaster. That doesn't help us poor old droners. And for us, PPU's can do enough damage to take down drones. :(
Originally posted by Saza
It's called a tl 3 heal and an explosive gat/lib/pe. :D No seriously, this works like a charm. Ask Wraith Nightcaster.
Right. Show me one decent PPU that cant handle a PE with a tl3
heal and a lib.
Originally posted by Rade
Right. Show me one decent PPU that cant handle a PE with a tl3
heal and a lib.
He said Wraith Nightcaster... hint hint :D
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Not ALL people can master a game....dont u see??
Lots of people dont have the time to train again and again in using their characters, so they can be effecient in PVP. Rade and an elite of other players (whom i respect a lot), have the time to train, thus they are becoming efficient. Remove the PPUs (or nerf em to hell and back) and u will make the game even more fun for that small elite, and less fun for most of the others...
100% ACK ... It's exactly like that!
Not to speak of those PPUs, who are NOT clanned thus have to look every day for a new "team" to leech XPs from!
(After APU/PPU changes, it's a damn laugh, how long my little PPU needs to complete a friggin simple AGGI-mission!).
And soulclusters are also nothin more than an almost useless pet.
After the changes, you can level for ages until you're even near cap!
Most of you always assume, that those PPUs are as easy to level as the other classes.
And they're NOT, unless you're in a big clan or are one of those "hardcore players" mentioned in the quote!
I for myself, who has played his PPU for half a year now and still being at about 80 PSI (natural) thinks my char DESERVES to be only killable when not paying attention or by a good combined attack (debuff/rogue cast of low TL buffs on her etc.)!
Those nice techniques were already mentioned in some of the above posts, so when planned, a PPU is as easy to kill as a SPY (my other chars are Spies, so i KNOW, how easy that is in mid/close combat).
I'm here to have some fun, when coming from work and not to be griefed also in my sparetime (that's what sparetime is for, isn't it?)...
I'm not very good in (close range) PvP, so i either take Tradechars (Spies) who try to push theirs clans forward by constructing/hacking/sniping/driving (or playing clanless and mostly PvM and have a "fun skillset") or
i take the PPU to be able to stay whith my comrades in OP fights and being able to help even when not so good in jumping around, avoiding every bullet.
That's why i wrote above, "with a planned attack", at least MY PPU could be "taken out" as easily as a Spy (whom almost all good PvPers would have no problem to kill, when getting into good combat range *gg* [hit and run is my only viable choice of action in PvP])...
You know what i hear alot? "Have a drug at hand, when being shocked"... well, i give that back here!
So:
Disadvantages:
- almost no damage output -> unable to make good XPs on it's own
- needs to rely almost purely on others to get at XPs and money
- hardest to level (when not in big clans) because of above topics
Adavantages:
- can resurrect others
- can massively enhance combat ability/worthness of others
- very hard to kill unless being attacked by a prepared group (debuff/rouge casts)
- can extremely slow down unprepared foes (no antistuns at hand)
Above mentioned advantages are the PRIZE, PPUs get after having leeched enough XP to reach the appropriate levels/ranks...
And NO, powerlevelers are NO excuse/argument against this, as those are NOT the majority of the playerbase!
As mentioned in earlier posts by others, there's actually a normal playing with levleing and PvM going on aside from the OP-wars handled by capped chars...
So, just let PPUs the way they are and have 1 slot in your belt handy for an antistun drug (a slot, your average PPU will NOT have free, as he/she has to keep loads of different spells at hand to support you!)
Just my 2c, Wilco
Spies doesnt really need a boost. Droners need bug fixes, a compass and something that removes them from local.(KK pls make showing on local a toggle button). In a non-ppu environment the game is pretty much balanced imho. Enter the ppu and battles evolves into a state where constant and unrelentless damage over time is needed. We all know that damage over time isnt the realm of the spy, droner, rifler or pistolero. I think that for me as a spy para-spam is one of the smaller problems.
Making S/D self-cast just strook me as a simple and easy change that can be implemented quickly and tested on the test server and its something that can be changed back if it doesnt work without making alot of problems.
I havent experienced much of NC`s fps-like combat in op-fights lately and its sad. Its been like this for a loooooong time. Pls fix it asap.
@wilco: So because someone does something moderately hard
theyre supposed to ruin the fun for everyone else in the game?
Hey I got two SAs without a clan backing me, now everyone I
meet has to keel over and die automaticly after being humiliated
for a few mins, cuz it was hard and boring.
Sorry hun, doesnt work like that. Theres alot of people that have
done alot harder things, besides, last time I counted there was...
lets see... one bazillion PPUs in Neocron, all high level, if it were
as hard as you describe it sounds rather unlikely that they would
get that high level. I personally deleted a 100 psi PPU two weeks
ago because no one really needed that account. Oh yeah it felt
really good btw.
And the part about keeping a antistun in your belt, what a
fucking joke. The antistun costs 1.5k, removes one stun effect
and takes a few seconds before it does it, and then the PPU is
free to just shock you again. Against paraspam the drug is worse
than useless.
BLACK LABEL
01-12-03, 04:20
I agree all your idea
everything rade says, in almost any post that ive read, i always agree to myself...so same applies here...agree with rade :o
this game needs FEAR put back into it...their's no adrenaline rush anymore...becuz their's no fear of dieing, it's just a pain in the ass...
lots of things apply to the amount of 'no fear' in this game now...who gives a shit about making OP wars lasting long as shit, i'm more for the zerg rush, running into an op and taking people out...used to be an adrenaline rush...
most of it was becuz of dropping things from your quickbar, with no safe slot, and in warzones...was always great when both of you get down to hardly any life left and one continues to fight while the other gives up and attempts to move his best weapon back into his inventory...most of the time people USED TO shake while trying to put their items back, i wont lie cuz i know i did...lol...so most of the time they couldnt do it in time...
but i guess the thing is, all good things must come to an end just like this game is starting to more and more...
Originally posted by Rade
@wilco: So because someone does something moderately hard
theyre supposed to ruin the fun for everyone else in the game?
Hey I got two SAs without a clan backing me, now everyone I
meet has to keel over and die automaticly after being humiliated
for a few mins, cuz it was hard and boring.
They're not "supposed" to ruin the game for everyone, and they do NOT ruin the game for everyone, but obviously for some (else you wouldn't have written this ;))
But they're supposed to have a massive advantage for their hard leveling... and as it is for almost all tools, you can use them protective as well as aggressive...
So what would you suggest to change, to let me (as a PASSIVE, !aggressive) char escape thus keeping the aforementioned advantage but without the ability to "ruin" other chars lifes?
As mentioned in my first post, those of you, who know groups (and PPUs MUST know other people "on the XP hunt" to constantly leech his/her XPs) have almost no problem in leveling their appropriate "Clanwhores" and (just taken this from my experience ["empirical" data :)]) those seem to be the ones who "ruin" the game for you.
Those (quote: )"bazillion PPUs in Neocron" are not the average playerbase... for the average player, it IS "rather unlikely" to reach that high ranks in the time, one levels the average Tank or PE (or "your" PPU :cool: )!
Sorry hun, doesnt work like that. Theres alot of people that have
done alot harder things, [...]
Fortunately, the rules aren't set in stone by nature, but made by KK (not always an advantage, but i hope it this case it is ;))
So it's quite possible, that it "works like that".
Besides, tell me what "harder things" the Joe Average of the players has to do, than being constantly "on the look" for a group of other Psikers to leech their XP? (and that is over months, when you do not have your clan/group ready to hunt every day and that at the most effective leveling spots)
And the part about keeping a antistun in your belt, what a
fucking joke. The antistun costs 1.5k, removes one stun effect
and takes a few seconds before it does it, and then the PPU is
free to just shock you again. Against paraspam the drug is worse
than useless.
I totally have to admit, that i never had a slot in my belt free for that, so i always had to use it out of my inventory (in which case i almost always got ganked *gg*)
But for me, that's a downside, i have to cope with... and i'm not complaining about it.
But after all the nerfs, all that's left for PPUs is their damage-boost and their ability to shock (slow down) an enemy... that's their "field of rock"... they have no advantage of being able to resurrect others. That, combined with their [nerfed] ability to shelter/deflect their comrades, is the only reason, others are willing to share their XPs with the PPU!
All chars, even the spies can go solo for XPs... but the time i use to down a WB is insane!
It's another proof, that the PPUs soulcluster is just an almost useless pet...
Cast it upon WB and in 1 out of 3 time, it might start to attack it after 5-10secs... for the next enemy, better recast it (1-3x), as else it only idles around, where you casted it... no following, no "attaking PPUs target", no "attacking what hurts the PPU"... but that's another story. I just wanted to further stretch out the inefectiveness of the PPUs class to solo good XPs.
As i've written above, i'm not the great PvP-fighter, thus i might not fully understand the grief or "stommach" frustration you "elite OP-warriors" feel...
For me, it came out as just another "we want the PPU downable as easy and fast as every other class", that does not take the massive (for Joe Average) effort put into this class to level it to the "higher ranks"...
Well, if the PPU gets further nerfed, we might have much less monks... not problem for me, as i mainly play my "fun spies"... but simply taking the PPUs stun out of PvP, and/or making Deflect/Shelter selfcast only is IMO the wrong way...
Just my 2c, Wilco
shodanjr_gr
04-12-03, 18:57
@Wilco, omg there is at least one more person apart from me that doesnt have the 1337 pkar attitude in this game!!!
Originally posted by Wilco
They're not "supposed" to ruin the game for everyone, and they do NOT ruin the game for everyone, but obviously for some (else you wouldn't have written this ;))
But they're supposed to have a massive advantage for their hard leveling... and as it is for almost all tools, you can use them protective as well as aggressive...
So what would you suggest to change, to let me (as a PASSIVE, !aggressive) char escape thus keeping the aforementioned advantage but without the ability to "ruin" other chars lifes?
Where did anybody from KK say you were supposed to have a MASSIVE advantage? That's exactly the same bullshit excuse that hybrids used, and it's exactly that - bullshit. Why don't we just add a godmode item and an instant kill item, you can only get them after playing for a year. Would that be fair?
Ideally I would nerf your shelter and deflector, but let you cast them while running. THAT is passive. Parashock is not passive, or defensive, in the slightest.
As mentioned in my first post, those of you, who know groups (and PPUs MUST know other people "on the XP hunt" to constantly leech his/her XPs) have almost no problem in leveling their appropriate "Clanwhores" and (just taken this from my experience ["empirical" data :)]) those seem to be the ones who "ruin" the game for you.
Those (quote: )"bazillion PPUs in Neocron" are not the average playerbase... for the average player, it IS "rather unlikely" to reach that high ranks in the time, one levels the average Tank or PE (or "your" PPU :cool: )!
Sorry but that argument holds no water. PPUs are a pure support class. They are supposed to rely on their team. Want proof? Check the patch 163 notes describing KK's aims for each class. Therefore, it's nobody's fault but your own that you chose to play a pure support class without having anybody to support.
Fortunately, the rules aren't set in stone by nature, but made by KK (not always an advantage, but i hope it this case it is ;))
So it's quite possible, that it "works like that".
Besides, tell me what "harder things" the Joe Average of the players has to do, than being constantly "on the look" for a group of other Psikers to leech their XP? (and that is over months, when you do not have your clan/group ready to hunt every day and that at the most effective leveling spots)
I have no idea what you're getting at here, other than what I have already addressed above.
I totally have to admit, that i never had a slot in my belt free for that, so i always had to use it out of my inventory (in which case i almost always got ganked *gg*)
But for me, that's a downside, i have to cope with... and i'm not complaining about it.
PPUs are the only class with an antiparashock spell which means they don't need to use the drugs, and it's perfectly simple to put the spell in your inventory - just take out level 3 buffs / ressurection from your QB and only get them out when you need them.
But after all the nerfs, all that's left for PPUs is their damage-boost and their ability to shock (slow down) an enemy... that's their "field of rock"... they have no advantage of being able to resurrect others. That, combined with their [nerfed] ability to shelter/deflect their comrades, is the only reason, others are willing to share their XPs with the PPU!
All chars, even the spies can go solo for XPs... but the time i use to down a WB is insane!
It's another proof, that the PPUs soulcluster is just an almost useless pet...
Cast it upon WB and in 1 out of 3 time, it might start to attack it after 5-10secs... for the next enemy, better recast it (1-3x), as else it only idles around, where you casted it... no following, no "attaking PPUs target", no "attacking what hurts the PPU"... but that's another story. I just wanted to further stretch out the inefectiveness of the PPUs class to solo good XPs.
What the hell? PPUs in their current situation have their buffs, their shields, their heals, damage boost, parashock, anti para/poison/DB. Even a 50% nerfed Holy Shelter imparts more protection than the TL25 shelter which is the maximum for any other class. Plus ressurection takes at most 10 seconds for a low to mid level PPU. Even if this gets nerfed down to 30+ seconds as it does on test, it will still be an essential aspect of the PPU.
If you want to have some offensive ability, then you have to sacrifice some defence. You can't have it both ways. If you want to be able to attack something or hunt solo then PPU is not the class for you, and it has always been this way.
As i've written above, i'm not the great PvP-fighter, thus i might not fully understand the grief or "stommach" frustration you "elite OP-warriors" feel...
For me, it came out as just another "we want the PPU downable as easy and fast as every other class", that does not take the massive (for Joe Average) effort put into this class to level it to the "higher ranks"...
Well, if the PPU gets further nerfed, we might have much less monks... not problem for me, as i mainly play my "fun spies"... but simply taking the PPUs stun out of PvP, and/or making Deflect/Shelter selfcast only is IMO the wrong way...
Just my 2c, Wilco
Even if you give PPUs the defence of a small spider, they will still be a valued member of a team. If PPUs did get a defence nerf, then they could expect their team to protect them more. Nobody is saying make PPUs simple to kill. But giving them uber defence is not the only way to make them hard to kill. They should depend on their team as much as their team depends on them.
Originally posted by Scikar
Even if you give PPUs the defence of a small spider, they will still be a valued member of a team. If PPUs did get a defence nerf, then they could expect their team to protect them more. Nobody is saying make PPUs simple to kill. But giving them uber defence is not the only way to make them hard to kill. They should depend on their team as much as their team depends on them. [/B]
A PPU does depend on his team. He depends on his team to kill the enemy and the team depends on them to keep them alive. Now I don't see anything wrong with that, it promotes teamwork. The only thing that really needs nerfing is how much the PPU can effect that team not nerfing PPUs and making it 10 tiimes harder to do there jobs.
hudsonbeck
04-12-03, 19:42
I like what you have said except for the APU "nerf"
One idea i havent heard yet is why not allow the Range, dmg, ect of the APU but i see the problem when a PPU and APU team and the APU is crazy powerful... Why not change it so that each buff on a APU decreases the total dmg %.... i.e. APU with no buffs = same as now, APU with shelter = same as now - 5% dmg, APU with shelter, deflector = same as now - 10% dmg.... and so on.
Not sure if its possible or even a good idea... just something i thought of while reading your post.
Hudson
/edit... this would have to only effect APU's and be foreign cast only (taking into account the new viability of hybrids)... I am sure there is more to think about too but i am at work.
JackScratch
04-12-03, 20:19
Here is a thought, how bout no untested massive changes to the game that we don't actualy understand. You have suggested entirely too much change. I honestly dont see how what you suggested would improve anything, just tilt the scale backwards. As it always does. PPUs are by no means mega class, they are hard to kill, and equaly hard to be killed by, but of course both are completely possible, in fact equaly possible, as it should be. why the hell would you change anything, because a bunch of idiots think they need to be?
Originally posted by Scikar
[On a quote from Wilco: But they're supposed to have a massive advantage for their hard leveling...]
Where did anybody from KK say you were supposed to have a MASSIVE advantage? That's exactly the same bullshit excuse that hybrids used, and it's exactly that - bullshit. Why don't we just add a godmode item and an instant kill item, you can only get them after playing for a year. Would that be fair?
Ideally I would nerf your shelter and deflector, but let you cast them while running. THAT is passive. Parashock is not passive, or defensive, in the slightest.
Where was an excuse in my wording? And why are you trying to blind people with unrelated arguments and accusation of "bullshit excuse"?
I said, that the 'Joe Average' PPU has massive drawbacks in leveling, thus deserves the advantage of being nearly unkillable, when on alert.
I explained that in a broader way, as to make people understand my point of view... more to the above in my response to your replies further down.
Originally by Wilco:
Quote:As mentioned in my first post, those of you, who know groups (and PPUs MUST know other people "on the XP hunt" to constantly leech his/her XPs) have almost no problem in leveling their appropriate "Clanwhores" and (just taken this from my experience ["empirical" data ]) those seem to be the ones who "ruin" the game for you.
Those (quote: )"bazillion PPUs in Neocron" are not the average playerbase... for the average player, it IS "rather unlikely" to reach that high ranks in the time, one levels the average Tank or PE (or "your" PPU )!"
Originally posted by Scikar
Sorry but that argument holds no water. PPUs are a pure support class. They are supposed to rely on their team. Want proof? Check the patch 163 notes describing KK's aims for each class. Therefore, it's nobody's fault but your own that you chose to play a pure support class without having anybody to support.
Again: my argument here was simply, that the average player has massive drawbacks when choosing this class.
As you have just stated above, it is supposed to be a support class who has to rely on their team (when leveling).
*Bingo*, then let them have their advantages for this "being a pure supportclass" as they have now (had right from the beginning), as obviously was supposed this way by KK.
Originally by Wilco:
Quote: Fortunately, the rules aren't set in stone by nature, but made by KK (not always an advantage, but i hope it this case it is )
So it's quite possible, that it "works like that".
Besides, tell me what "harder things" the Joe Average of the players has to do, than being constantly "on the look" for a group of other Psikers to leech their XP? (and that is over months, when you do not have your clan/group ready to hunt every day and that at the most effective leveling spots)
Originally posted by Scikar
I have no idea what you're getting at here, other than what I have already addressed above.
I directly answered to a reply from Rade, that "it doesn't work like that" (i came to the conclusion that Rade ment something like: "The world dosn't work like that/Things aren't going the way you describe" etc.).
Rade then made a statement, that there would be "harder things" than leveling a PPU for the Joe Average. This was my direct reply to it.
As i quoted, that those statements were from Rade, and as Rades post was even on the same page as my reply to it, i'm wondering, that you couldn't correlate those posts... Did you even try to understand/'work yourself through' my posting? Or is it just the standard "WTF is that idiot typing... *charge and attck*" thingie from you?
If you thought it wouldn't bring anything new to the topic, why did you have to quote it then? Trying to disgrace me? :rolleyes: :D
Originally posted by Scikar
PPUs are the only class with an antiparashock spell which means they don't need to use the drugs, and it's perfectly simple to put the spell in your inventory - just take out level 3 buffs / ressurection from your QB and only get them out when you need them.
I think my statement there was clearly pointed towards the nonPPUs. Also, if you you refer to the Spy/Construction/Repair-buffs, when speaking of the "level 3 buffs", i can assure you, that i have those (together with the rezz) in my inventory, and not in the quickbelt.
QB holds (standard, bottom to top) the appropriate versions of:
Heal / BResist-3 [or haz boost] / M-C2 buff [or Psi-2 when together with APUs] / Heal Sanctum / Deflector / Shelter / Psi-B2 drug / Psi-B2 drug[or SoulCluster] / DamBoost / Parashock.
I think, that is a nice combo when hunting alone or in a team.
When you prepare for an op-fight, you might take out the Resist/Psi-Attack buffs, as they last quite long. But as stated earlier, *I* do not only refer to OP-wars, but to the standard "running around the wourld" and encountering the various foes (mobs as well as mobs of playerchars).
The statement "have a drug handy" came mainly when i reported being (again) ambushed by some random sociopaths with my Spies (so there, i was on the other side of the PPUs spell !)...
And, as stated in my previous post (you remember, the one you replied to), i explained, that NONppus have more "slots to fill a drug with" than the PPUs.
Originally by Wilco:
Quote: But after all the nerfs, all that's left for PPUs is their damage-boost and their ability to shock (slow down) an enemy... that's their "field of rock"... they have no advantage of being able to resurrect others. That, combined with their [nerfed] ability to shelter/deflect their comrades, is the only reason, others are willing to share their XPs with the PPU!
[... some arguments that all classes can do nice soloing of XPs, while PPUs can't ...]
Originally posted by Scikar
What the hell? PPUs in their current situation have their buffs, their shields, their heals, damage boost, parashock, anti para/poison/DB. Even a 50% nerfed Holy Shelter imparts more protection than the TL25 shelter which is the maximum for any other class. Plus ressurection takes at most 10 seconds for a low to mid level PPU. Even if this gets nerfed down to 30+ seconds as it does on test, it will still be an essential aspect of the PPU.
You're counting up the PPUs spells, so what?
I stated, that the only reasons, where a PPU is of worth for the team would be his ability to resurrect and (even after the nerf) his ability to "enhance" their combat effectiveness. I'm sorry, that i forgot to mention the "anti-effect" sanctums (para/poison etc.).. maybe because my char cannot even cast them yet (after about half a year of fun exploring and (slowly) leveling, without haste).
Their ability to damage-boost as well as stun the enemy lets the team (in PvM) gather much more XPs while being in less danger, thus an advantage for the team, hence their being welcome in a team.
Originally posted by Scikar
If you want to have some offensive ability, then you have to sacrifice some defence. You can't have it both ways. If you want to be able to attack something or hunt solo then PPU is not the class for you, and it has always been this way.
I'm sorry, but... *REALITY CHECK !*
Before Hybrid nerf, a Monk could have almost all PPU abilities, while still being able to level on it's own.
Hybrid nerf was needed because of ultimately optimized PvP Monk-rul0rs.
The way KK implemented it was the harshest one, i could think of.
There was the statement: "we will nerf monks, unless hybrids aren't playable anymore". Remember, when those statement got out first?
It was after the Jhonny 'Hybrid' Optimizators started wrecking havoc.
So (read the archives) it was a big shock for most players, that KK didn't spoil only "Mr. Optimization"s PvP-'fun', but also all peaceful PPUs with their ability to generate their own XPs.
PPUs "offensive abilities" (if one can even call them that) where shrinked down to a minimum. Damage boost on it's own is not offensive (doesn't generate harm in any way). And you cannot (in an acceptable time) shock someone (mob or char) to death.
That the small shock-bolt generates some damage (and the higher TL shocks generate less) is the last poor trail of offensive capacity the PPUs got left!
But i highly doubt, that you are really talking about the "offensive" parts of the Parashock spells. You are disturbed and angry about the PPUs supportive ability to slow down an enemy, so that his/her team can overcome this enemy faster than before!
That the amount of PPUs in OP-wars have such a big impact on the outcome, thus NC generated loads of them might undoubtly be a problem for you "elite OP warriors". But the way you try to change this, interferes with my wishes and needs in the game. That's why im taking part in this thread... :cool:
So it's not that i want more offensive powers, but i don't want KK (and your lobby) to take away one of their last small remains of direct interaction and "eye to eye, i see you first" combat options in PvP! (for which i personally [as stated earlier] have the least advantage of... see next quote :cool: ).
Originally by Wilco:
Quote: As i've written above, i'm not the great PvP-fighter, thus i might not fully understand the grief or "stommach" frustration you "elite OP-warriors" feel...
For me, it came out as just another "we want the PPU downable as easy and fast as every other class", that does not take the massive (for Joe Average) effort put into this class to level it to the "higher ranks"...
Well, if the PPU gets further nerfed, we might have much less monks... not problem for me, as i mainly play my "fun spies"... but simply taking the PPUs stun out of PvP, and/or making Deflect/Shelter selfcast only is IMO the wrong way...
Originally posted by Scikar
Even if you give PPUs the defence of a small spider, they will still be a valued member of a team.
Um, really? All what lefts of them would be their part as "resurrection-whores" and damage-boosters.... but you might be right, could be enough.
If PPUs did get a defence nerf, then they could expect their team to protect them more.
Aha, so losing one of the two (or three, when counting dam-boost) main parts where the PPU is effective for the team will make people take more care of the PPU?...
You don't mind me uttering a faint laugh, do you?
Nobody is saying make PPUs simple to kill. But giving them uber defence is not the only way to make them hard to kill.
But? Getting as easy to kill as Spies, but with the need to stay near, whennot even right within the combat zone and then relying purely on their team to protect them?
Let me me quote Rade here:"Sorry hun, doesnt work like that."
They should depend on their team as much as their team depends on them.
No they shouldn't (when it comes to defence)! As stated before, it's their PRIZE for being the "support class", for being the "XP leechers"!
Just my 2c, Wilco
Originally posted by Wilco
Where was an excuse in my wording? And why are you trying to blind people with unrelated arguments and accusation of "bullshit excuse"?
I said, that the 'Joe Average' PPU has massive drawbacks in leveling, thus deserves the advantage of being nearly unkillable, when on alert.
I explained that in a broader way, as to make people understand my point of view... more to the above in my response to your replies further down.
Right. So we make the 'Joe Average' PPU nearly unkillable to compensate for the amount of time it takes him to level. Just screw all those fully capped PPUs, who cares if they are completely unkillable? It's not like they can ressurect or heal their team mates or anything, is it?
Again: my argument here was simply, that the average player has massive drawbacks when choosing this class.
As you have just stated above, it is supposed to be a support class who has to rely on their team (when leveling).
*Bingo*, then let them have their advantages for this "being a pure supportclass" as they have now (had right from the beginning), as obviously was supposed this way by KK.
If you accept that you're a support class and have to rely on your team, why do you resist having your defence weakened? You're not just a support class when you feel like it. Why should a medic be invulnerable? Why should a support class be doing a Tank's job of damage soaking? Why should a lone PPU in 1v1, the class which is supposed to be the main TEAM class, be impossible to take down?
I directly answered to a reply from Rade, that "it doesn't work like that" (i came to the conclusion that Rade ment something like: "The world dosn't work like that/Things aren't going the way you describe" etc.).
Rade then made a statement, that there would be "harder things" than leveling a PPU for the Joe Average. This was my direct reply to it.
As i quoted, that those statements were from Rade, and as Rades post was even on the same page as my reply to it, i'm wondering, that you couldn't correlate those posts... Did you even try to understand/'work yourself through' my posting? Or is it just the standard "WTF is that idiot typing... *charge and attck*" thingie from you?
If you thought it wouldn't bring anything new to the topic, why did you have to quote it then? Trying to disgrace me? :rolleyes: :D
OK I didn't get what you posted the first time around, maybe because it was all mangled up amongst your responses to other quotes. I can think of several harder things. Try getting the parts to a Cursed Soul from scratch. Try going to MC5. Try earning enough money to be able to buy rare parts from other players. These are all things that the average player will find difficult, and much more difficult than levelling a PPU. The average player is not unclanned like you, the vast majority of players are in a clan which gives better access to other players to hunt with. I also fail to see how it is difficult to level when you are the class that cannot die in PvM, and when you are the class which is the most in demand for teaming with.
I think my statement there was clearly pointed towards the nonPPUs. Also, if you you refer to the Spy/Construction/Repair-buffs, when speaking of the "level 3 buffs", i can assure you, that i have those (together with the rezz) in my inventory, and not in the quickbelt.
QB holds (standard, bottom to top) the appropriate versions of:
Heal / BResist-3 [or haz boost] / M-C2 buff [or Psi-2 when together with APUs] / Heal Sanctum / Deflector / Shelter / Psi-B2 drug / Psi-B2 drug[or SoulCluster] / DamBoost / Parashock.
I think, that is a nice combo when hunting alone or in a team.
When you prepare for an op-fight, you might take out the Resist/Psi-Attack buffs, as they last quite long. But as stated earlier, *I* do not only refer to OP-wars, but to the standard "running around the wourld" and encountering the various foes (mobs as well as mobs of playerchars).
The statement "have a drug handy" came mainly when i reported being (again) ambushed by some random sociopaths with my Spies (so there, i was on the other side of the PPUs spell !)...
And, as stated in my previous post (you remember, the one you replied to), i explained, that NONppus have more "slots to fill a drug with" than the PPUs.
First, it wasn't clear that you were referring to your spies. Second, you hear it from other PPUs, not from non-PPUs. Third, if you aren't complaining about it, then you aren't being paraspammed, since you would know that a drug is useless. Fourth, other classes have just as many problems as PPUs. Try a tank, one slot for an energy weapon for PEs/Tanks/Spies, one slot for a piercing weapon for monks, one slot for an AoE weapon at OP wars, one for deflector, one for heal, one each for antidote, antishock and antidamageboost. That leaves a grand two slots for stamina boosters, which you are forced to pop constantly due to the ridiculously high stamina drain of heavy weapons. QB slots are just as difficult to manage for PPUs as any other class.
You're counting up the PPUs spells, so what?
I stated, that the only reasons, where a PPU is of worth for the team would be his ability to resurrect and (even after the nerf) his ability to "enhance" their combat effectiveness. I'm sorry, that i forgot to mention the "anti-effect" sanctums (para/poison etc.).. maybe because my char cannot even cast them yet (after about half a year of fun exploring and (slowly) leveling, without haste).
Their ability to damage-boost as well as stun the enemy lets the team (in PvM) gather much more XPs while being in less danger, thus an advantage for the team, hence their being welcome in a team.
And I stated, though I'll state it again, that you have more things to do, in healing and shielding your team mates. It is your main job to keep people alive. Parashocking enemies is something that you do when instead of concentrating on keeping your team mates alive, you are concentrating on getting enemies killed. It is the PPU's heal, not just his ressurect, which is the most welcome addition to a team. It is perfectly possible to hunt solo, the biggest obstacle is in having to heal up every time you take damage. A Holy Heal gets around this and makes levelling much faster. With the upcoming ressurection nerf people will hunt more like they hunt solo and stop dying so much, using the PPU to heal, shield, buff, and cure them, rather than kamikazeing straight into a bunch of mobs and expecting the PPU to rez them.
I doubt very much that parashock is the highlight of your day, and that you will miss it. Parashock serves little use in PvM, it is only essential for large teams who cannot take out small enemy teams without having them stuck to the floor and thus made easy to hit and kill.
I'm sorry, but... *REALITY CHECK !*
Before Hybrid nerf, a Monk could have almost all PPU abilities, while still being able to level on it's own.
Hybrid nerf was needed because of ultimately optimized PvP Monk-rul0rs.
The way KK implemented it was the harshest one, i could think of.
There was the statement: "we will nerf monks, unless hybrids aren't playable anymore". Remember, when those statement got out first?
It was after the Jhonny 'Hybrid' Optimizators started wrecking havoc.
So (read the archives) it was a big shock for most players, that KK didn't spoil only "Mr. Optimization"s PvP-'fun', but also all peaceful PPUs with their ability to generate their own XPs.
PPUs "offensive abilities" (if one can even call them that) where shrinked down to a minimum. Damage boost on it's own is not offensive (doesn't generate harm in any way). And you cannot (in an acceptable time) shock someone (mob or char) to death.
That the small shock-bolt generates some damage (and the higher TL shocks generate less) is the last poor trail of offensive capacity the PPUs got left!
But i highly doubt, that you are really talking about the "offensive" parts of the Parashock spells. You are disturbed and angry about the PPUs supportive ability to slow down an enemy, so that his/her team can overcome this enemy faster than before!
No. I'm talking about you complaining that you can't hunt mobs solo, because you have no offensive ability. I'm explaining that the reason you have no offensive ability is because if you combine godlike defence with even a mediocre attack, you have the most powerful char in the game. The most powerful hybrids weren't the ones that used Holy Lightning. They were the ones that went PPU first and had the same defences as a pure PPU monk, then they worried about their offense. If you want some offensive ability to be able to hunt by yourself, then fine! I support that entirely, as long as you take a defence hit to match.
I would in fact like very much for PPUs to have a defence hit but given offense to be able to defend themselves and hunt mobs. Or make them a summoner class, with more options than just SCs, and better control over them. This way we could have PPUs killable without them being completely vulnerable alone, which they seem to be fear more than anything else.
That the amount of PPUs in OP-wars have such a big impact on the outcome, thus NC generated loads of them might undoubtly be a problem for you "elite OP warriors". But the way you try to change this, interferes with my wishes and needs in the game. That's why im taking part in this thread... :cool:
So it's not that i want more offensive powers, but i don't want KK (and your lobby) to take away one of their last small remains of direct interaction and "eye to eye, i see you first" combat options in PvP! (for which i personally [as stated earlier] have the least advantage of... see next quote :cool: ).
Alright then, I'm sorry. PPUs might not have their fun if we remove parashock, so we can't possibly do it. The fact that everyone else has their fun comepletely obliterated by parashock is irrelevant of course, we have to keep those PPUs interested, don't we?
Um, really? All what lefts of them would be their part as "resurrection-whores" and damage-boosters.... but you might be right, could be enough.
Aha, so losing one of the two (or three, when counting dam-boost) main parts where the PPU is effective for the team will make people take more care of the PPU?...
You don't mind me uttering a faint laugh, do you?
No, they would be healers, they would cure poison and damage boost, all the jobs they still do. The only difference is they wouldn't have the Tank's job of soaking up damage, and they would have to actually, shock horror, worry about dying occasionally when they tried to ressurect someone. And yes, if my PPU didn't have more defence than me, I would consider it my job to protect him, otherwise I wouldn't be getting shields, a heal, a ressurect, an antidote, an antidamage boost, an antiparalyze, a damage boost on my target, a resist buff, or a combat buff, neither would my team mates, and we would lose a team mate if the PPU died. I would have thought that as a PPU you would realise it is a good thing to keep your team mates alive?
But? Getting as easy to kill as Spies, but with the need to stay near, whennot even right within the combat zone and then relying purely on their team to protect them?
Let me me quote Rade here:"Sorry hun, doesnt work like that."
No, they would be healers, they would cure poison and damage boost, all the jobs they still do. The only difference is they wouldn't have the Tank's job of soaking up damage, and they would have to actually, shock horror, worry about dying occasionally when they tried to ressurect someone. If you want to be independent, don't play a pure support char.
No they shouldn't [rely on their team](when it comes to defence)! As stated before, it's their PRIZE for being the "support class", for being the "XP leechers"!
Just my 2c, Wilco
It's their CHOICE, after choosing to be a pure support class. Just like an APU monk chooses to be a support class and become less effective on his own, so should a PPU monk.
Originally posted by Scikar
It's their CHOICE, after choosing to be a pure support class. Just like an APU monk chooses to be a support class and become less effective on his own, so should a PPU monk.
When an APU is on his own he is still able to kill, just like the PPU still has his defenses on his own. And just becuase a PPU role is to keep others alive doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to keep himself alive.
Btw do you even play a ppu, if not STFU and don't give me "Oh yeah I play an PPU 5 months ago for 5 minutes" bullshit. You're always bitching about PPU saying they need to get nerfed but never contributing to helping with balancing them. You're just trying to get them fucking nerf to the point there useless.
Shadow Dancer
05-12-03, 00:24
Originally posted by petek480
You're always bitching about PPU saying they need to get nerfed but never contributing to helping with balancing them. You're just trying to get them fucking nerf to the point there useless.
OMG, that's totally not true. Sorry I have to intervene here. What you said is true of some people of the forum, but not of Scikar. He's always been giving well thought-out suggestions and posts on how to improve/fix/balance the PPU.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
OMG, that's totally not true. Sorry I have to intervene here. What you said is true of some people of the forum, but not of Scikar. He's always been giving well thought-out suggestions and posts on how to improve/fix/balance the PPU.
Well i'm sorry but I don't think taking away ppus defences making them depend on other people to keep them alive is the right way to balance PPUs and thats what I always hear him saying.
Did i miss the :rolleyes: ,
Mebbe not..........
:rolleyes:
Dribble Joy
05-12-03, 00:39
This is starting to get boring.
Will people PLEASE start to use their brains, or if they can't let others do it for them.
Can some one please explain how bringing the current balance we see in duels to the OP fight arena is wrong?
The fighting classes, other than a few small issues, are 'equal'
PE High defence - low offence
Tank Medium defence - medium offence
APU low defence - high offence.
PPUs alter this so drastically that we end up with....
PE High defence - low offence
Tank Insane defence - medium offence
APU Insane defence- high offence.
Is this balanced? no.
add para spam to it and all the fun is taken away, along with any sense of fairness.
PEs shouldn't have stealth. Or make them gimp to use it.
Ok that sounded really arrogant, but erm.... stfu :D
Scikar,
most of your replies go into the following direction:
If we keep the defensive PPU power the way they are, thus letting the Joe Average PPU be very hard to kill, the capped "prefessional" PPU are near to unkillable.
Hence we need to crap the advantage, the player had choosen, when he/she started a "support char" called PPU (and traded massive offensive [XP] powers for a massive defense).
Feck with all the PPUs who then loose "their edging advantage" against sociopathic ambushes... they're no 1337 skilled players? poor guys... then die!
I repeat: i do NOT want MORE offensive powers, but i'm against the LOSS of the remains of it! You see the difference?
If you accept that you're a support class and have to rely on your team, why do you resist having your defence weakened? You're not just a support class when you feel like it. Why should a medic be invulnerable? Why should a support class be doing a Tank's job of damage soaking? Why should a lone PPU in 1v1, the class which is supposed to be the main TEAM class, be impossible to take down
I resist in having my defence weakened, because that's THE advantage i have traded in for relying on my team when hunting and getting XP.
Hooray for those, who know how to level as fast as the other classes and have the backup to actually DO IT... but that's not the mayor (average) player, hence it shouldn't have much impact when comparing.
[... regarding "harder things" than leveling a PPU ...]
Try getting the parts to a Cursed Soul from scratch. Try going to MC5. Try earning enough money to be able to buy rare parts from other players. These are all things that the average player will find difficult, and much more difficult than levelling a PPU. The average player is not unclanned like you, the vast majority of players are in a clan which gives better access to other players to hunt with. I also fail to see how it is difficult to level when you are the class that cannot die in PvM, and when you are the class which is the most in demand for teaming with.
Before you cap, you might have hunted enough WBs & WBTs to actually have an assorted collection of rares. Hunting for rares isn't as hard (even for a spy) as to cap a PPU.
MC5 is (as i have experienced ONCE and heard many times) the ultimate 'field of danger' even for high-end groups... there's no need to go there to have fun or to extend your chars abilities (to level ;)). I think i'll never get my hands upon an MC5 chip... tough luck, that's my choice of not going in there, risking my valuable neck.
Well, speaking of the vast majority of players.. i doubt, that they're all in clans, and that they're all capable of putting together a good "XP leech" combo for a PPU..
The difficulty in leveling here doesn't depend on the PPUs ability to outheal and retreat 4 WBs at once (did that yesterday in a hill-type sector)... it's that he doesn't do any damage to earn XPs in an acceptable time!
I never said, that there wouldn't be a big demand for PPUs... a walking M.A.S.H. is always nice to have. :D
But i doubt, that there are enough teams to do a good leveling with at all times (which you implie with your statements... "no problem for the PPU to team and make XPs as fast as the other classes").
And I stated, though I'll state it again, that you have more things to do, in healing and shielding your team mates. It is your main job to keep people alive. Parashocking enemies is something that you do when instead of concentrating on keeping your team mates alive, you are concentrating on getting enemies killed.
So you want the PPUs to really just be you heal- and rezz-whore...
Sorry, but that's not what is was supposed, when many people (including me) started a PPU. And i doubt that that was KKs intention of "support char"....
I can live with the fact, that i'm not the damage dealer, but i have my fun (also) in helping to directly overcome an enemy (mainly dam-boosting)... PLUS the fact, that i'm relatively safe, because of my defensive abilities!
According to your posts, you want to take BOTH from the PPUs... thanks alot, but i'm "AGAINST" it.
I never complained about the PPUs poor offensive abilities, although you're constantly trying to foist that to me!
And you're right, i must have been lucky, that i haven't been paraspammed too many times or that i haven't realized that (with my spies). I was downed too quick. :(
It is the PPU's heal, not just his ressurect, which is the most welcome addition to a team. It is perfectly possible to hunt solo, the biggest obstacle is in having to heal up every time you take damage. A Holy Heal gets around this and makes levelling much faster. With the upcoming ressurection nerf people will hunt more like they hunt solo and stop dying so much, using the PPU to heal, shield, buff, and cure them, rather than kamikazeing straight into a bunch of mobs and expecting the PPU to rez them.
I haven't heard of the rezz-nerf until now. If it helps bringing again more dynamics into OP wars.. go ahead with it!
It obviously won't bother rezzing in PvM, so i have nothin against it.
As i stated before, i'm not a good OP-warrior und not very skilled in PvP... thus i haven't had the opportunity to fight in more that a good handful of OP-wars. And there i was mainly buffing/healing my side, than resurrecting.
The same with "para-spam".
I only know one thing for sure. My parashock helped me escape more than one ambush. That's why i'm so hard on "keeping it".
I doubt very much that parashock is the highlight of your day, and that you will miss it. Parashock serves little use in PvM, it is only essential for large teams who cannot take out small enemy teams without having them stuck to the floor and thus made easy to hit and kill.
Unfortunately it's also essential for an ambushed char to escape a small team of sociopathic agressors... (see above)
[... i stated why i didn't want some of the suggested PPU nerfs ...]
Alright then, I'm sorry. PPUs might not have their fun if we remove parashock, so we can't possibly do it. The fact that everyone else has their fun comepletely obliterated by parashock is irrelevant of course, we have to keep those PPUs interested, don't we?
Ouch, that hit was below the belt. I though i made it absolutely clear, that i wasn't against something for you not to to be spoiled in OP wars, but letting my peacefull option intact!
As all of the above mentioned sugestions would deeply influence one of the main reasons, i have choosen a PPU, that is being relatively safe from ambushes, i'm naturally against it.
Nothin more, nothing less.
On a second thought: ok, take away Parashock in PvP (only!) and do something against those pesky Gatlingcarriers... :angel:
Should be ok, as it's YOU being the prey, that spoils your fun, and not the PPUs ability to freeze you and escape your ambush, RIGHT?!?
And towards your "fun comepletely obliterated by parashock":
Highest rule in P&P fantasy: Kill the mage first
Oups, PPUs have massive defense except against gatlings... ah well, then better keep a gatling handy!
But we're talking about different topics here:
OP wars / ambushes / 1 on 1 fights ...
You're the prey in an ambush: being paraspammed you're an even easier prey, no doubt.
You're in an OP war: i hope some of your team carry gatlings or you have your own PPUs.
1 on 1 fights: Well, ask the Spy how his last try went (and i doubt the Spy went out alive)...
And as a reply to your last paragraphs:
Yes, it was my choice to play the PPU, to have massive supportive and defensive capabilities, as well as the remaining "active"/offensive abilities,
you now want to take from this class.
Don't try to let it look like there was an offence-upgrade who appeared too mighty, and now the PPUs are complaining about some supportive status quo, the class should be brought BACK to. It's that you think, the active part of the PPU is STILL too mighty, thus it needs a further nerf!
No, the PPUs here (and namely *I* in my previous posts) did NOT complain about too low firepower.
I stated that it was the drawback, i accepted when choosing this class with all the other dis- and advantages.
Your fun is being spoiled by some PPUs?
Possible solutions:
-set bounties on their heads (for being ambushed and paraspammed)
-ignore them (that was in fact one suggestion to me being rPKed, yay)
-fight op wars with previously declared rules/teams.
-live with it! (It's an ignorant and selfish statement, isn't it? .. My spies get to hear that all the time :angel: )
Maybe, if i have the bad luck of being constantly ambushed and parashocked, i would change sides, but right now, i have had the luck of only being PKed the "normal" way with my Spies, and very seldom with my (now quite high) PPU.
And as stated above, the fact that my parashock saved my butt more than once is reason enough for me wanting to keep it!
So i hope you could see, that i understand fully your point of view, and that i'd be fully supportive, if it wouldn't interfere with my needs,
but this is one voice against a change here.
Regards, Wilco
JackScratch
05-12-03, 01:45
X defense - X offense?
Dribble, are you on crack?
If NC was as simple as Offense Vs Defense, I would have quit playing in Beta. This game, and the game mechanics therein are so much more complicated it's like useing basic mathmatics to explain advanced physics. Offense Vs Deffence is a tiny tiny tiny part of a near infinately more complicated equasion. PE's are precisely what they are supposed to be, they are the "so, you want to do it all" they combine the advantages of haveing a little of all abilities with the disadvantages of not specialiseing. Only PPUs ever have insane defense, now that the PPU to other runner buffs are limited, and Tanks are the damage soaks they were ment to be. Spies, spies have a little trouble, but only because they are unable to use the insane range they seem intended to have (clipping plane issue). There is about as much balance in this game as any multi class game has ever had in the history of man.
Why do I even bother? Pete, I have posted, and am in support of, a vast range of different ideas for changes to PPUs. I don't really care what happens, as long as the result at least resembles something balanced. The fact is, whatever I post, there's always some PPU saying "No don't do that, do this" going round in one giant circle until we're back where we started and nobody agrees on anything. Is it any wonder KK have just dropped ressurection to 30 second cast time? A week ago I would have protested that that's going a bit too far. But now? Why should I care? There have been hundreds of ideas for changing PPUs in the last 2 months. Not a single one has been well received. So whatever KK gives you, will not be what the community thinks is right, but what KK thinks is right. Are you happy leaving PPU balance to chance instead of discussion? Because that's where they're headed.
With guns like the ray of last hope, ray of god, liberator, pain easer, DoY Raygun your telling me that PE's have low damage output ? I'd use those any day, my PE lasts longer than my tank.
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