View Full Version : Plan for monks
I posted this in another thread, here it is on its own with a poll.
I did write a big post about this, but I got a 60 second message and it vanished, so here's a short version:
3 Gloves, APU, PPU, Hybrid.
APU gets all APU spells, PPU up to shelter, gets level 1 buffs, and regular anti para/DB/poison, but they have very low RoF.
Hybrid gets Holy Halos (some adjustments to TLs needed), level 2 buffs, blessed heal/shelter/deflector, blessed anti para/DB/poison, regular ressurection.
PPU gets regular Halos (again adjustments needed), level 3 buffs, all Holy PPU spells.
The gloves are implants, not armor like they are now, so they need to be implanted, and they take a while to implant (basically long enough to make switching gloves constantly impossible). A freshly created monk starts off with his glove already implanted. Damage of top end APU spells is reduced a little, damage absorption of holy and blessed shields is reduced significantly, heals reduced a little, and the hybrid penalties removed.
Thoughts, suggestions, improvements?
Originally posted by Candaman
two words crahn epic
What about it? Just make it like the TT epic.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 11:56
Originally posted by Scikar
APU gets all APU spells, PPU up to shelter, gets level 1 buffs, and regular anti para/DB/poison, but they have very low RoF.
APU would be overpowered then, unless high end apu spell damage is brought down ALOT! But then he wouldn't be apu.
With the right setup an APU can cap or near cap spells and use MOVEON chip. Now imagine that with shelter(and damage boost, aren't they same TL?). He would be like a PE, except with wayyy superior damage.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Scikar
Hybrid gets Holy Halos (some adjustments to TLs needed), level 2 buffs, blessed heal/shelter/deflector, blessed anti para/DB/poison, regular ressurection.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds good. But only since you said protection of bless buffs brought down first.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Scikar
PPU gets regular Halos (again adjustments needed), level 3 buffs, all Holy PPU spells.
[/QUOTE]
The ppu would have to be killable 1v1 if he gets any decent offense IMO. Halo is decent enough so that he should be killable 1v1. But then if he's killable 1v1, wouldn't that kinda kill the class? Maybe not, butI don't like the sound of it. It just sounds like 3 versions of hybrids with all monks being hybrids, rather than apu/ppu/hybrid.
Just MO though.
nice tags btw and the crahn epic glove gives super bonus's which are gonna boost monks even more (awaits sd's moan "nerf teh glove")
Originally posted by Scikar
Damage of top end APU spells is reduced a little, damage absorption of holy and blessed shields is reduced significantly, heals reduced a little, and the hybrid penalties removed.
I think Shadow read this part a little too quickly. ;)
And Can, the Crahn glove gives +50 mana and some Psi Use. No PPW, no MST, no APU, no PPU.
JustIn_Case
28-11-03, 12:03
The PPU Glove should restrict to PPU spells only...
The APU Glove should restrict to APU spells only...
The Hybrid Glove should restrict to Blessed + Holy Halos...
The Hybrid Glove should make you imune to the APU/PPU penalty, but then again Holy Halos need to bee tuned down. So Runcasting + Blessed + Holy Halo with less damage.
This is just my suggestion.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 12:07
Originally posted by Candaman
nice tags btw and the crahn epic glove gives super bonus's which are gonna boost monks even more (awaits sd's moan "nerf teh glove")
You ever stop trolling?
Originally posted by Scikar
I think Shadow read this part a little too quickly. ;)
No I didn't. You said "brought down a bit". I said it would have to be brought down "ALOT" since level 1 buffs+shelter will make the APU take ALOT more hits. And then if you bring down the damage enough to balance the shelter+buffs, then he's not an apu anymore.
Well I figured PPUs have too much defence, and they claim this is justified by having no offence, also I hear many say they want to be clerics, and have some offence, instead of being pure defence. So, reduce the effectiveness of PPU shields, and in return give them regular halos. There are two reasons for giving APUs shelter. One is that I think they should be able to buff and heal themselves in PvM. The other is that their high offense is balanced to solo PvP, which is why teaming them with a PPU is most effective. They deal far more damage than any other class in OP fights, due to a combination of not only high damage but also better aim. Reducing their damage straight off makes APUs weak in PvM and solo PvP, so they get level 1 buffs and shelter to balance it.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 12:13
Originally posted by Scikar
Well I figured PPUs have too much defence, and they claim this is justified by having no offence, also I hear many say they want to be clerics, and have some offence, instead of being pure defence. So, reduce the effectiveness of PPU shields, and in return give them regular halos. There are two reasons for giving APUs shelter. One is that I think they should be able to buff and heal themselves in PvM. The other is that their high offense is balanced to solo PvP, which is why teaming them with a PPU is most effective. They deal far more damage than any other class in OP fights, due to a combination of not only high damage but also better aim. Reducing their damage straight off makes APUs weak in PvM and solo PvP, so they get level 1 buffs and shelter to balance it.
I'll respond to the PPU part later. But as for the APU. Let me put it in black and white terms for you. The nature of the APU is to deal the most damage. So even if his damage is tweaked to be on par with a CS, but only slightly higher, he would still be overpowered due to shelter+buffs. Look at pes. He would literally have PE style defense and better than tank offense. And if his offense is reduced very much to balance out the shelter, then they aren't APU they are just hybrids.
While that may be balanced, it's just changing the apu class to a hybrid. You can't say "pure XX, but with this this this and that" and still say he's pure.
As for the glove Candice, I mean Cannings, it gives PSI energy. Something monks have always been lacking IMO.
Mumblyfish
28-11-03, 12:18
Sorry, but I'd rather have the option of being able to pick what I want to use, rather than being hit in the face and told "You will use holy halos and blessed defenses NOW!" Somewhere along the line, there'd probably be a "bitch" thrown in there, too.
JustIn_Case
28-11-03, 12:18
Well i think pures must still be an option for thoose who want to be pure. Problem with PPU defense is really that its only APUs who can debuff.
But if debuff would be implemented to other classes it need to be tunded down abit. Make it drop shelter + deflector but not the heal.
Edit: He he, i need to change my signature now that im PPU
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Sorry, but I'd rather have the option of being able to pick what I want to use, rather than being hit in the face and told "You will use holy halos and blessed defenses NOW!" Somewhere along the line, there'd probably be a "bitch" thrown in there, too.
Well, you still can. All this does is say you can't use the highest level APU spells in combination with the highest level PPU spells. Which is what KK have been saying all along. If you want holy defence, fine, but you can't go higher with APU than Halos. You want Holy Halo offence? No problem, but you get level 2 buffs and blessed defence. You want HL capped? Then you have to make sacrifices with PPU.
@Shadow: Originally I thought there should be 5 types, and what I listed as APU there is my original idea for Semi-Pure APU. The trouble is, that then brings on the Pure PPU, which we know doesn't work. How about 4 types? Semi-Pure APU gets the shelter defence but low stats on HL and HAB. Remember they don't have PE CON, and they are still weak to piercing. They also wouldn't get the same stats on spells as PEs, their PPU would be more like spies. Then you have the Pure APU which is current APU, but no Pure PPU.
Don't like this idea at all. I would rather see the ppu and apu monks only be able to use spells of that subskill. Hybrids should be able to have higher apu and lower ppu or vice versa.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 12:37
Originally posted by Scikar
that then brings on the Pure PPU, which we know doesn't work.
I kno, which is why it's such a bitch to balance. Sometimes I think every class should get an anti-shelter and deflector, with HAB being removed completely as a compromise.
Originally posted by Scikar
Remember they don't have PE CON, and they are still weak to piercing. They also wouldn't get the same stats on spells as PEs, their PPU would be more like spies. Then you have the Pure APU which is current APU, but no Pure PPU.
Gonna have to disagree. Even if an APU JUST hits the req for shelter, his high PPW will give him better stats then the PE. They don't have PE's con, but that's made up for in their superior armor. The pe's main advantage is shelter. Secondly, an APU setup properly isn't THAT weak to piercing, and he'll still have deflector.
I just don't think it would be fair to pes or especially tanks.
I do like the idea though of a semi pure apu and a pure apu. But then as you said, the pure PPU still being there, etc....
Originally posted by Scikar
@Shadow: Originally I thought there should be 5 types, and what I listed as APU there is my original idea for Semi-Pure APU. The trouble is, that then brings on the Pure PPU, which we know doesn't work. How about 4 types? Semi-Pure APU gets the shelter defence but low stats on HL and HAB. Remember they don't have PE CON, and they are still weak to piercing. They also wouldn't get the same stats on spells as PEs, their PPU would be more like spies. Then you have the Pure APU which is current APU, but no Pure PPU.
QD.....
I told you it would start soon :)
Shields and Heals should not be touched.
Make shields self-cast only at the maximum.
Don't start on heals.
Nerf-bat wielding fairies with nothing better to do than picking PPUs apart.
Start talking about the quality of your gaming experience. The game does not revolve round PvP ffs.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
QD.....
I told you it would start soon :)
Shields and Heals should not be touched.
Make shields self-cast only at the maximum.
Don't start on heals.
Nerf-bat wielding fairies with nothing better to do than picking PPUs apart.
Start talking about the quality of your gaming experience. The game does not revolve round PvP ffs.
Yeah sorry, you're right. We should just completely forget game balance, I mean who cares, all we do is RP and PvM, right? :rolleyes:
Nah. The blessed and holy line of heals needs to be nerfed to hell
and back.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 12:59
Yea I'd really like to try shields being self-cast first, on the TS. KK should just test it out see what it's like.
JustIn_Case
28-11-03, 13:06
Well this is turning in to a Nerf the PPUs thread, but ok.
What do we want with PPUs then? What is the problem?
I dont think that the problem is killing the PPU, is rather the resurection that is the problem.
Even if PPUs had an true goodmode i would think that is an problem, the problem isnt that the PPU can boost his friends either. I would say that resurection is the problem, and it is being adressed, but maybe not in the right way.
rm -rf objects/freezers/*.obj
I still want my PPU to get rid of the holy para. haven't even used it for a while (up until someone else uses it that is :rolleyes:)
Why can't it be so? Embrace teh fun!1
:D
EDIT: Sorry, I just crave a nerfing of myself :p
Even if an APU JUST hits the req for shelter, his high PPW will give him better stats then the PE.
sorry dude this isnt true, an apu with like 150+ apu and 105 ppw with the base reqs for shelter will have about 150% on shelter
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 14:31
Originally posted by Rizzy
sorry dude this isnt true, an apu with like 150+ apu and 105 ppw with the base reqs for shelter will have about 150% on shelter
I was talking about Scikar's "plan" which included the removal of hybrid penalization.
With that penalization gone, they WILL have alot higher than 150% on shelter.
sex
Mumblyfish
28-11-03, 15:00
Under no circumstances should the hybrid penalty be removed. If parashock goes, I reckon that post-nerf hybrids are balanced. Now, balancing pures around THAT is tricky...
Nice concept but i dont like it heh.
Oath.
It sucks because it would roll up the whole class. Also people hate such restrictions(at least i do).
The Hybrid is very viable atm, you just have to know your roles. And it is not to be the best PKer anymore, get that out of your heads!
All sort of Monks are still possible, the only problem are the pure monks because they dominate every battle and that for you cant fight without them anymore. :(
@ Scikar
Balance is a buzzword used on this forum to describe perfection in 1v1 combat.
This game is not just about that scenario.
Everything that comes out of your mouth is conceited and biased imo.
Not only have KK succumbed to yours and a few select others wishes over parashock (and Rezz wtf?), now you want them to fuck the rest of the class up.
Incase you're too stupid to know what I was talking about I'll re-iterate.
There are far more important things to talk about at this time with regards to gameplay other than PPUs and or monks in general.
Yeah sorry, you're right. We should just completely forget game balance, I mean who cares, all we do is RP and PvM, right?
You disregard more than two thirds of Neocron's gameplay in order to A: Disrespect me and B: Satisfy your own desires with regard to gameplay
Some people will never be happy, and as I've pointed out and proved in the past. PvP will NEVER be balanced.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
@ Scikar
Balance is a buzzword used on this forum to describe perfection in 1v1 combat.
This game is not just about that scenario.
Everything that comes out of your mouth is conceited and biased imo.
Not only have KK succumbed to yours and a few select others wishes over parashock (and Rezz wtf?), now you want them to fuck the rest of the class up.
Incase you're too stupid to know what I was talking about I'll re-iterate.
There are far more important things to talk about at this time with regards to gameplay other than PPUs and or monks in general.
You disregard more than two thirds of Neocron's gameplay in order to A: Disrespect me and B: Satisfy your own desires with regard to gameplay
Some people will never be happy, and as I've pointed out and proved in the past. PvP will NEVER be balanced.
For once i almost agree with you.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
@ Scikar
Balance is a buzzword used on this forum to describe perfection in 1v1 combat.
This game is not just about that scenario.
Everything that comes out of your mouth is conceited and biased imo.
Not only have KK succumbed to yours and a few select others wishes over parashock (and Rezz wtf?), now you want them to fuck the rest of the class up.
Incase you're too stupid to know what I was talking about I'll re-iterate.
There are far more important things to talk about at this time with regards to gameplay other than PPUs and or monks in general.
You disregard more than two thirds of Neocron's gameplay in order to A: Disrespect me and B: Satisfy your own desires with regard to gameplay
Some people will never be happy, and as I've pointed out and proved in the past. PvP will NEVER be balanced.
I'm sorry, but PvP is not simply 1/3 of Neocron's gameplay. It's more like 3/4. Almost everything in the game exists to support PvP. It takes very little time to cap a character, and there is little incentive to fight mobs once capped. Epic runs take a matter of hours to complete. RP is almost totally nonexistant beyond red = dead. Trading is dominated by PvP based items. Items which are not very useful for PvP have low value, while items which are necessary for PvP have high value. The vast majority of the playerbase plays because of the PvP. Every other aspect of the game has been done better somewhere else.
If you're happy with the role PPUs play in PvP, then that's fine, just say so. But I disagree, I feel they are far too important, and that they do not justify their godlike defence. This is an issue which I feel strongly about, therefore I have started this thread.
You call me "conceited", "biased", a "nerf-bat wielding fairy", then say I'm disrespecting you? :lol:
You complain that parashock and rez have been nerfed. Have you even bothered to contribute to threads concerning them? No? Then why are you surprised that KK listened to the people who did?
You complain that I'm making threads like this about monk suggestions, yet there you are yourself toting tank ideas. (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81747) Tanks need higher RoF on AoE weapons you say. You ask for more weapon lore for tanks. You ask that gatlin cannons have their T-C req removed. How is that different to me suggesting monk tweaks?
In fact, I think this quote just about sums it up, from this thread. (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82570)
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
It's also true that if you say "Nerf PPU"... you attract the idiocracy and the sheep like flies round shit.
Oh look, a goldmine! I post about balancing PvP and I get flamed. But it's OK for ]v[ortice!
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
PEs > Tanks. Fact. That needs to be Balanced.
You sir, are a fucking hypocrite.
@Skicar: Good idea. Although I think it would need some adjustments :). All mentioned here:
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81612
I'm sorry, but PvP is not simply 1/3 of Neocron's gameplay. It's more like 3/4. Almost everything in the game exists to support PvP. It takes very little time to cap a character, and there is little incentive to fight mobs once capped. Epic runs take a matter of hours to complete. RP is almost totally nonexistant beyond red = dead. Trading is dominated by PvP based items. Items which are not very useful for PvP have low value, while items which are necessary for PvP have high value. The vast majority of the playerbase plays because of the PvP. Every other aspect of the game has been done better somewhere else.
The problem with your counter-argument is that you only see Neocron from your perspective and by theorem yours and everyone elses (including mine) perspective is based on how they play the game.
You Sir, like your PvP. Fair enough. You may fight 3/4 of the time but unfortunately the vast majority doesn't there are very few hardcore PvP players in this game that only stop to refuel and reload from time to time, and I know quite a few of them.
The tradeskillers you use every day aren't off fighting 5 mins after they've poked you or repped your armour... they're trying to earn a living in the game. They've prolly been in plaza 1 for an hour or so trying to make a few NC. So don't tell me this game is all Bang, Bang, Reload and Bang again. I don't know if you've ever ran your own clan dude... but quite often 90% of the time you're sorting that out and very rarely get time to go kick ass.
From what you've stated I gather your chars are capped or very near and you've done most of the "to do" things in the game. That's your perogative. I'm not gonna tell you how to play the game. IMO you sound like you've powerlevelled for a month, PvPed for 1 or 2 months after that and decided subliminally you're bored. So you've then decided to change the game to the way you want it played so you can regain interest and you're gonna bang your drum until everyone hears it.
If you're happy with the role PPUs play in PvP, then that's fine, just say so. But I disagree, I feel they are far too important, and that they do not justify their godlike defence. This is an issue which I feel strongly about, therefore I have started this thread.
You complain that parashock and rez have been nerfed. Have you even bothered to contribute to threads concerning them? No? Then why are you surprised that KK listened to the people who did?
1. No I'm not, it does to be changed slightly. The some changes have been made for testing already. Why do you want more changes (read 'nerfs')
2. I'm not complaining that they've being nerfed, I was merely pointing out that you and a handful of other [edited] have already had PPUs nerfed so why do you continue to persist and persecute the sub-class with your constant whining. I personally believe you have an inferiority complex caused by the fact that you can't kill PPUs. If you check I contributed to a lot of those threads myself and gave my reasons why I didn't think PPUs need balancing. Thankyou for flaming/ignoring those for your own purpose.
You complain that I'm making threads like this about monk suggestions, yet there you are yourself toting tank ideas. Tanks need higher RoF on AoE weapons you say. You ask for more weapon lore for tanks. You ask that gatlin cannons have their T-C req removed. How is that different to me suggesting monk tweaks?
Lets see...
1. I suggested Tanks had a greater RoF on AoE Weapons yes with the penalty of a longer reload time. (Fuck me... did I talk about something else for a change?)
2. I didn't ask for more Weapon Lore I merely commented that they "Need" it. (Many wouldnt disagree... Aiming cap on CS anyone?)
3. I didn't ask for Gatlin Cannons T-C requirement be removed. I merely pointed out that they had that requirement and questioned it's relevance. (Told a porky didn't you *tut tut*)
In closing on this point: you've visited other threads in order to "show me up" so to speak but you've lied, left bits out and generally twisted my own ideas to your own. Pretty much what you want to do with this game on the whole. I don't need to visit other threads and insult people's intelligence by implying they haven't read your nonsense before.
The comment about "Nerf PPU attracting the idiocracy" was merely an observation about the current state of this forum and if you had read the whole thread you would have seen that it was relevant and on topic in that discussion.
The comment about "PE > Tank that needs balancing" was not hypocritical in the slightest. In that thread I had also pointed out that 'balance' is merely a buzzword on this forum and I used that example to not only point out that this game has an imbalance with regard to monks, but there are several other imbalances which need to be addressed at the same time in order to prevent further imbalance. Read the thread, I'm not repeating myself.
'Balance' in PvP cannot be acheived unless there is 1 standard weapon, 1 class (with no RPG attributes) and no outside interference. That is why the term is innacurate and unacheivable when talking about the whole scope of PvP in Neocron.
Back on topic...
Stop flogging a dead horse.
Wait until you have seen the effects of the test changes post-testing. Then you may readdress it. You have no right to call for a complete nerf of a whole class simply because you can't kill them. Why do you have this insanely stupid idea that PPUs should have no defences and no offence at all? Please.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
Wait until you have seen the effects of the test changes post-testing. Then you may readdress it. You have no right to call for a complete nerf of a whole class simply because you can't kill them. Why do you have this insanely stupid idea that PPUs should have no defences and no offence at all? Please.
And now who's twisting things? Please show where I asked for a complete nerf to the entire PPU class? If you had truly read my other posts as you claim to have done, you would know that fully appreciate there is no justification for a sudden nerf to PPU defence without giving them anything in return, as they will be completely obliterated in OP wars. But I also know that the current system doesn't work either, and I'm not alone in thinking there is a problem. But I don't just say nerf PPUs, I post suggestion after idea after possibility and discuss it to see if it works. I have looked at PPUs deflecting damage onto tanks they are teamed with. Tanks having large shields they can put up for PPUs to hide behind. PPUs having more summoning abilities to use better mobs than just Soul Clusters. PPUs having psychic melee attacks. So far none of them have turned up much. So now I'm suggesting that perhaps the way forwards is to give PPUs some offensive ability?
It seems you are unable to appreciate that, and would prefer to argue for the sake of arguing. Balance is perfectly possible, we know this because PEs, tanks, spies, and APUs, are all perfectly viable in combat when there are no PPUs around. Any combination of spies, PEs, APUs and tanks can work effectively. It is only when you introduce PPUs into the equation that problems arise. I know this because I am perfectly capable of winning a fight as any of those classes, and I can name many examples of each class who are all capable of beating each other. But as soon as you get to an OP war, all you see is monks, monks, and more monks, because everyone knows as soon as you have PPUs, you need APUs, and also APUs are the ones who benefit the most from PPU support. I am attempting to find a solution to this problem. What are you trying to do?
You're lying to me again!
You once told us all that the PPUs should be the weakest of all classes. Now you want to nerf heals and shields too. What are we meant to do as PPUs?
If you had done your research properly I have already stated in other threads that you have to take the PPU away to stop them influencing PvP.
A PPU with damage boost alone will change combat in the favour of his team... never mind heals, shields and buffs.
How can you say balance is acheivable with just the other 4 classes? Your example implies that a team of 5 Spies vs 5 tanks is a fair fight... or 5 APUs vs 5 PEs. I could tell you the outcomes of those fights right now. Balance cannot and will not exist in this game until the attributes within combat are all made the same. It is impossible. There may be a time when we will come close. But by waving the nerf bat at my class you don't solve the problem you create the same problem in a different guise. Be it Monks, PEs, Tanks or Spies, there will always be a dominant class in this game.
At the end of the day Sci, you got your way. They are making changes to the PPU class. Whether it is enough to make the stakes more even remains to be seen. But I maintain that until that time, you should be quiet and leave this subject alone, because you are inviting hostility from the whole sub-class. Not just me.
I look forward to your next plan file :-P
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
You're lying to me again!
You once told us all that the PPUs should be the weakest of all classes. Now you want to nerf heals and shields too. What are we meant to do as PPUs?
Quote it, I'm waiting.
All but one thing. Alot of people think ppus are overpowered as they are. giving them power to do a fuckload of damage with buusts+ halo i dont like. but i am horny for the apu and hybrid idea
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.