View Full Version : Fun legal question
Alright, i've no intention of doing this, i just thought about it whilst making a coffee, and it made me giggle.
Right you go down to dixons and buy some software, say "Barbies Adventures With Ken In The Bedroom - Part 2" and you go to install it, when you come to the EULA, you read the EULA, and totally disagree with certain aspects like "YOU also agree to not copy anything that Barbie and Ken do".
You cancel out, and look on the CD, where a file called EULA.txt resides, and you read it, and lo and behold, its the licence agreement. So, you edit it a little, change bits you dont like, and add in some things like "WE agree that WE will pay you $1,000,000 if you break parts of YOUR anatomy whilst YOU partake in any Barbie Ken activities"
You save it, fire up the installer, and the new EULA appears, with the new licence.
Now, this licence could be considered a legally binding agreement between two parties, and, of course, you ALWAYS have a legal right to negotiate any contract, now, the software dev's (bless their little cotton sox) have made it so easy for you to accept a contract between the two parties, simply by pressing "I agree" and continue.
So, the legal fun bit, would the new contract which was renegotiated and accepted by both parties, be legally binding in a Barbie and Ken Court of Law (priced £49.99 @ Argos)
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 16:29
i dunno... but im impressed you can change a text file on a CD - unless you made an illegal copy of said software, and changed the license on that?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i dunno... but im impressed you can change a text file on a CD - unless you made an illegal copy of said software, and changed the license on that?
it is not illegal to make copies of software for backup purposes :p it is illegal to distribute said software, or sell the original without also handing over the backup copies, you may also only run Barbie and Ken on 1 (one) IBM super computer at a time, as long as its running OS2 or BeOS :p
well i can't see that working.... they write the contract, it's up to u
to read it (wich nobody does) and if you agree, you need to click on the checkbox
if you edit the contract, it's not their contract anymore... so i can't
see it working... give it a shot
and btw, i want that piece of software :D
Originally posted by Lexxuk
it is not illegal to make copies of software for backup purposes :p it is illegal to distribute said software, or sell the original without also handing over the backup copies, you may also only run Barbie and Ken on 1 (one) IBM super computer at a time, as long as its running OS2 or BeOS :p
in sweden it's illegal to make copies of software cds... even if you
claim it's for personal use, just for backup...
sorry for double post, u guys are just 2 fast 4 me
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 16:37
Originally posted by Lexxuk
it is not illegal to make copies of software for backup purposes :p it is illegal to distribute said software, or sell the original without also handing over the backup copies, you may also only run Barbie and Ken on 1 (one) IBM super computer at a time, as long as its running OS2 or BeOS :p
well actually it varies depending on software. many pieces of software specifies that any copies are illegal - most allow you to make backup copies i will agree.
and if its a backup CD it must be a backup... not an edited version. i am not 100% sure but i imagine that editing the software voids warrenty etc and possibly voids the contract?
the college students that made the CS mod for half life... think they could bitch to Valve when their mod had problems? :p
It's certainly illegal to alter said software which would render your shiny new license null and void. It may even render you liable to charges of fraud. Still want to try it? :p
N
Originally posted by Lexxuk
So, the legal fun bit, would the new contract which was renegotiated and accepted by both parties, be legally binding in a Barbie and Ken Court of Law (priced £49.99 @ Argos)
in a word - no.
in the same way, if someone hands you a paper contract, and you tippex over the bits you don't like and replace it with "i agree to sex Lexxuk until he says i have to stop", and then sign it, this does not result in a legally binding document (hehehe). unless of course you hand it back, the other guy reads it over, and then agrees with your changes and signs it too.
you have a copy of the agreement, as does the other person. if the two do not match or one has been changed subsequent to the originals being made and signed, it's all null and void.
Nullifidian
26-11-03, 16:44
Actually neither are legal anyway unless notarized. EULAs don't hold up as evidence in court.
EDIT: GAH! I posted. shoot. This is a non-neocron related topic though so I guess it's kosher.
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 16:45
Originally posted by Nidhogg
It's certainly illegal to alter said software which would render your shiny new license null and void. It may even render you liable to charges of fraud. Still want to try it? :p
N
what if he claimed it was a mod?
like Counter Strike (which was made by a bunch of college students)
i realise he prolly wouldnt pull it off though lol
also if u do negotiate the other party has to agree to these altered terms which they are not doing.
In every EULA it should stand "you cannot change this, you have to abide by this 100%, you can't tamper with any part of our product, blah blah blah blah" - the whole thing is basically there so that when you want to bitch and moan to the company if the product is garbage, they can point you to the agreement which you accepted, and keep the money you spent on them.
So alteration is immediate breach of contract, therefore if you did that, they could counter-sue and take some more of your money :)
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
well actually it varies depending on software. many pieces of software specifies that any copies are illegal - most allow you to make backup copies i will agree.
they really are not allowed to say "you cannot make backups" your backup rights are protected by law, as in the law itself states you "can" make backup's of software, and EULA that says you cannot, well, wouldnt hold up in the court of law :p
@ Nid - would I do something like that? ;)
Anyway, the contract is the EULA, they have pre-agreed the contract, so, in agreeing to it, you can change it, by clickin "i agree" both parties are agreeing to the EULA in the box, even a modified version, because you have renegotiated the terms and conditions of said contract, and they have agreed to these terms and conditions in the point and click interface :D
Anyway, I wouldnt recommend anyone tries this btw, its just a fun thing :p
As has been said, no it wouldn't work. If you change the contract you would have to seek their agreement on the changes before it could be made binding.
Nullifidian is right that in the situation you describe it wouldn't be binding.
Terms can only be enforced if they are made clear or available at time of purchase.
If the EULA is on a CD in a sealed box then you can't read it before purchase, and how many places have you seen that have a copy they show you when you get to the counter?
If they make the terms available on the net and you purchase on the net, they can claim they were freely available (and therefore binding), but that relies on whether there is a link on the product page and which country you live in (some countries do not count the internet as a valid, freely available, public source.
superfresh
26-11-03, 19:23
Where can I get this CD?
Peeping Tom
26-11-03, 19:32
I really enjoyed Barbies Adventures With Ken In The Bedroom - Part 1, but i must say Barbies Adventures With Ken In The Bedroom - Part 2 was a really big dissapointed me oh well we could all hope dat Barbies Adventures With Ken In The Bedroom - Part 3 would be much more nerve wrecking fun.. hope we could atleast get tho 3rd 4th base on Barbie inn part 3
K4F
"would the new contract which was renegotiated and accepted by both parties, be legally binding in a Barbie and Ken Court of Law (priced £49.99 @ Argos)"
I'd say anything's possible in play-court. ;)
AFAIK there is no legal right to make backups in the UK like there is in the US. One of the reasons for all the new Anti-Freedom Diktats they are trying to pass at the moment is to clear up such things in their favour.
Just a quick note...
If a prosecution was filed, the "Original EULA" (The Master copy made to be shipped with all copies) would be used as a charge document along with the evidence gathered to show you committing whatever it say's in those things your not meant to do.
If you changed the EULA on your machine it wouldn't mean a monkeys because like most software documents thesedays it has a digital signature that would prove that the doc on your machine differs from the Source agreement.
You would have to then prove you didn't change it yourself in order to clear your name :)
ghandisfury
27-11-03, 09:59
All license agreements you "sign" are not legally binding. They are more to keep an honest man honest. ANY legally binding contract must be signed and accknowlegded by BOTH parties at the time of notarization. There is no way that a software company could hold *you* responsible for not abiding by their liscence agreement when they cannot prove that you signed it in the first place. The only thing you could get into trouble for is copyright infringments. Once you purchase said piece of software *you own it*, and you may change/alter/modifie that software any way you see fit. The one thing you CANNOT do is distribute that software by purchase or handout. You also cannot infringe on anybody elses usefullness of that software.
Without prejudice UCC 1-207 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/1/1-201.html#writing_1-201) defines "signed" as "any symbol executed or adopted by a party with present intention to authenticate a writing." You did not sign it, you did not accept it, you are not liable for abiding by their terms.
Mind you all of this is American laws.....I'm not sure where you're live
;)
QuantumDelta
27-11-03, 10:12
You'd have to take the EULA Change to court AFAIK in English law the company would have to be notified of the change(s) in the legal agreement you have edited, EULAs *are* very close to "law" in Europe, and generally speaking editing them is like taking your taxes and editing them :p
You could try, but it would be one of those campaign against the system type deals.
I doubt you would stand up in court with this.
edit;
Most EULAs state you can make ONE Backup copy and this copy is an EXACT Copy of the original.
Some EULAs (FreeSpace2) get changed, or come with clauses, because, right now, FS2 is freely copiable and distributable so long as you don't make a profit on it.
Because the Publisher has no interest in it anymore, and the developer wants it to see more computers (even if there's no money involved, they loved their game...).
It's abandonware in short, but aparently the developer had this clause in right from the beginning and a few similiar clauses o_O
What I mean by the edit...is that you can try.
In the current system as long as you can provide supported reasoning to take it to court you can as the american's say, have it declared "unconstitutional" :p
give it a try lexx u may find out much to your expense
Richard Slade
27-11-03, 11:36
Originally posted by retr0n
in sweden it's illegal to make copies of software cds... even if you
claim it's for personal use, just for backup...
No it's not
It's just that court never belive the guys sitting on 200 "backups"
for some strange reason..?
And for ghandis
When buying software you do N O T own it. All you have is a copy
of something that the company that created it owns
And as well known is, changing a Picasso piece of art would make
it into something else. Same with software.
And also well known is that the law says that an owner is the ONLY
one to distribute his stuff, OR parts of his stuff.
Therefor you can't do shit with your copy without asking the company
that created the expensive piece of plastic in the first place.
The EULA isn't worth shite in that case.
"So by playing Neocron I have to give you head?"
"Its in the contract honey"
:lol:
Richard Slade
27-11-03, 11:41
Originally posted by Archeus
"So by playing Neocron I have to give you head?"
"Its in the contract honey"
:lol:
Someone stop Danae from playing around with their Agreements!
Jesterthegreat
27-11-03, 12:03
Originally posted by Richard Slade
Someone stop Danae from playing around with their Agreements!
lmao
Although it is legal to back-up (i think), it is an infringement of copyright laws to modify anything that is supplied on that CD unless explicitly allowed to do so by the software creator. Nice try though :)
Mingoo
Couldn't resist replying to this one - I've just gotten my LLB.
You've got no chance. (As far as I know. In England and Wales)
But...
You might argue that the Unfair Contract Terms Act applies here. If EULA are limiting their own liability in an unreasonable way, then the clause in question should not apply. The only way EULA can avoid this is by making it VERY clear that the clause IS a part of the contract.
(to paraphrase the late great Lord Denning (there's a reference for the lawyers!) "if such an exclusion clause is to form a part of the contract it should be written in red ink with a red hand pointing to it.")
Or...
You could argue that no contract exists at all. English law requires "consideration" pass form both parties - ie each party to the contract gets a benefit from the other party. So where is the benefit to you? Where is the benefit to EULA?
Sadly, the answer is probably that you get to use the game, and they get the "benefit" of the limits to their own liability.
Of course, if you can convince a court that you bought Barbie and Ken as a business for business purposes... Well, then there's a whole new set of rules. But you aren't going to be able to do that. Really. You aren't.
That'll be £250 please.
this backup thing is really a moot point, when you install the software, you are copying said software from CD to Hard Drive, thereby making a copy, which, as the original CD probably has the original software in a compressed format, wrapped around an installer/msi, you are in effect, altering the form of the original :lol: You then naturally make backups of your hard drive, in case barbie and ken in the bedroom 2, has the same virus as number 1 which deletes your entire c:\pr0n collection directory.
You never own the software mind you, you own a licence to use the software, you own the media on which the software is transported on, be it floppy, cd or dvd (barbie and ken comes on 2,500 3 1/4 inch floppies) so you could argue that you are entitled to do with the "media" which you do own, as you wish, including, but not limited to, making copies of the "media" itself :p
£250? pfft, we get the first 1/2 hour free :D :D :D ;)
VictorKruger
27-11-03, 15:48
On a related note: I've bought school books that have cds in the back of them, and the seal is a sticker that says
"by breaking this seal you have agreed to the License Agreement"
but the weird part is, is that the License agreement is inside with the cd and you have to break the seal just to read the license agreement o_O o_O
VK
QuantumDelta
27-11-03, 16:04
Originally posted by VictorKruger
On a related note: I've bought school books that have cds in the back of them, and the seal is a sticker that says
"by breaking this seal you have agreed to the License Agreement"
but the weird part is, is that the License agreement is inside with the cd and you have to break the seal just to read the license agreement o_O o_O
VK MS Do the same.
Originally posted by VictorKruger
On a related note: I've bought school books that have cds in the back of them, and the seal is a sticker that says
"by breaking this seal you have agreed to the License Agreement"
but the weird part is, is that the License agreement is inside with the cd and you have to break the seal just to read the license agreement o_O o_O
VK
No idea about the US but under both English and EU law they are definitely not binding.
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