View Full Version : Community Focus Change?
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 10:17
No, I'm not making an obversation *OF* A Focus change, I'm trying to start one.
I know that some people who others wouldn't even expect, have strong oppinions on this, and may come forward to comment, but this needs to happen...
The English(International) Community is so focused on the FPS side of Neocron, they're so focused on balance, on, dynamics to PvP with, it's not helping the game in terms of depth of gameplay, it's not helping the games longevity.
This is one of the reasons people are REALLY Leaving.
PvP will only keep a person for so long, Politics, and Friends, will only keep a person for so long.
Some people would be more than happy for this game to be Quake3 in a constant world, well, sure I can live with the game as it is, but not everyone feels the same way...
The reason I am bothered about balance, is because I am a bit of everything.
RP, Content, PvP, PvM, all of it.
I've done every epic.
I've done the PA runs.
I've chatted to NPCs, I've done Politics, I've done PvP, I've done PvM.
That can only work out for so long if there is not that much new stuff.
Politics kept me in this game so long, a clan ruined that for me and suddenly, I found myself realising this game has approximately zero content.
New items are nice but unless KK are going to give new stuff to the game every few weeks, it's going to continue to lose people.
So my plea is this; (and it's akin to a thread I posted a while ago...)
This game is close to balance.
The english community has done well to help KK bring it to this point, but, because of the close-to-universal interest in only balance, the game lacks content.
Missions for clans.
Quests which bring depth to factions (more than just Epics).
Shops, RolePlay...
things like these, can we bring these into focus, considering balance will be sorted, very soon...
Lets breath a little new life into this game, and remove the stagnation that exists on every server, flavouring the epics was nice, it showed me some of the potential neocron had outside of PvP/Player interaction and I know that more can be done along these lines.
No I don't want this game to become everquest, but giving this game some NPC Population, and some stories among them, might be a good way to go about things.
With the FC Project and Live Runs still ongoing some content is coming in, from other sources as well, but there's a saying that came from Japan "If the whole country is drawing, we are all more creative.", to say, if more people are trying to bring real content rather than just items or balance into the game, we'll be on much better terms for Neocron to start advertising when the new publisher deal is finalised..
trigger hurt
25-11-03, 10:30
Myself, personally...
I can live with the game the way it is right now, balance wise. Even with the power that monks hold over pvp, I can deal with it.
If KK were to say "screw it guys, we're adding content in this patch and not fixing any bugs", I think I would be very happy to log in and play the game. Right now, I have capped 4 characters as well as 3 others that I have deleted and rerolled out of boredom.
The real issue is that many of the english community are the ones who pvp all or most of the time and spend very little time trying to RP. It's red=dead out there...making it difficult for those of us who want RP to actually RP. Especially when you try to be in character and people tell you to shutup or call you a noob, despite the fact that all your skills are capped and you have been playing the game longer than they have known about it.
In short (kinda late for that, i guess), I wish KK would be able to focus on adding content patch after content patch. Adding more runs in. Getting the rare run for the terminator sorted so we can stop farming mobs for techs and start hunting mobs for books to run for all of the rares. As long as I have been on saturn, I have yet to see anyone with a book to do the terminator run. I know it's probably been found at least once. This could solve 2 problems at once. Add something to the story and reduce the rare pool a bit more so weapons are even more rare.
the main priority in to me is bugs.
i play the game and love it as it is now, i dont need content or rp im not into that.
i have a good chat with mates on TS and in clan chat, speak to people i know in plaza, fight in pp, go to op wars, level new characters for a change, Gank teh noobs etc
and as for rp, 90% of this game are here purely for the pvp....so how important is the rp and shops quest etc for people like that ?
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 11:26
Stig - tell me how making Nc to compete with PS would make sense if you're trying to market it to MMO Goers?
MMOers are not going to want Neo-Strike.
You currently have a basis in which your Neo-strike will survive no matter what, but adding content would mean a little more population would be present, because more than just PvPers would be playing.
It may also give the game a little more depth.
I have 4 accounts and been here since the uk launch... I op fight, lvl, and almost never pk...
I done ONE epic thats it... I couldnt care less for the stupid quest and other rp material....
I tend to play with in my faction, ie i wont attack neutral or allied factions but thats it......
Seems like most ppl do it this way.... I almost never see anyone thats wants or tries to rp....
Then again more mobs and better loot would be nice.....
Stig - tell me how making Nc to compete with PS would make sense if you're trying to market it to MMO Goers?
MMOers are not going to want Neo-Strike.
You currently have a basis in which your Neo-strike will survive no matter what, but adding content would mean a little more population would be present, because more than just PvPers would be playing.
It may also give the game a little more depth.
i did in no way suggest changing the game into PS, i did not propose any changes.
and QD it was just how i play the game, but i know for sure most people play the same way i do.
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 11:37
Well RP isn't the whole reason for the thread, but I mean.
Once Bitching about the Balance of the game is settled, where is the energy of the community going to go?
Once PvP IS balanced, there will be no changes (sure new stuff but classes will mostly always remain the same), and it'll get pretty boring.
I've already gone off dueling, and really only do team fighting.
What I mean, is this game has the potential to have a real DEPTH to it, a real almost-tv-show/book-storyline, running around in the background.
You may not get involved in that, but rather than your op fight being ...just an op fight....wouldn't it be rather sweet if your op fight was a real war, instead of a war between players a war between the factions with real consequences, DoY vs NC with real effects on the game? (BoP means this may eventually be possible in a very real sense)
This isn't talking about making people RP.
This is talking about encouraging people to post ideas on content and things that can add depth and fidelity to the game :p
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Well RP isn't the whole reason for the thread, but I mean.
Once Bitching about the Balance of the game is settled, where is the energy of the community going to go?
Once PvP IS balanced, there will be no changes (sure new stuff but classes will mostly always remain the same), and it'll get pretty boring.
Balance is never finished. People always find new ways to use the tools available and the devs have to always add new things to keep people interested.
The problem is, nothing in the game is dynamic.
If we had dynamic faction relations, with proper faction councils, faction heads, and faction joinings(akin to what FoMK is proposing)
If op's had to be built, and guarded, all dynamically for your faction to advance, get new players, get money and get tech.
Why would we need KK for anything?
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 12:29
Originally posted by jernau
devs have to always add new things to keep people interested.
i hope so...
i find myself logging on to chat to clan / peeps in plaza 1. i rarely play properly anymore, and when i do its sitting there attempting to cap my spy. sitting there tanking fire mobs. its not fun anymore
i couldnt say when NC lost its sense of fun tbh... and before anyone asks a can and do PvP. i think when i hit cap and am using my carefully planned setup i will like PvPing alot more... however will it be enough to keep me here?
i am arranging SUKING - will i even be playing NC in feb? whats leeping me here? well i am good friends with just about every Uranus clan. I am leveling a PPU on Pluto with a few close friends (Without mentioning names).
so what keeps me here? people like ssc. people like sYn (we are at war with them, but i still get on with many of them. props to Lee, Matt, Rabbi, Doc etc - sure sometimes :rolleyes: there is some spamming after op wars - but all in all good guys IMHO). people like VENOM. people like Underworld (again - at war however i know its leaders and some members in real life).
so basically its the community that i log on to see now days. i remember when i used to play like 12 hours a day... now i play about 4 tops, in windowed mode, on IRC talkin to the community there too.
now the big question is what would it take me to get me back into liking it? well thats something i dont know. people forcing their ideas on others could do with stopping... this shitty red=dead thing can fuck off too... content would be nice... gimme something to do. i dunno how will i can personally RP, but i have played a hell of a lot of RPG's and i can handle doing RP missions etc.
hell even Counter Strike gets more content added per update than Neocron...
well I'd best finish now before i depress myself :D (btw - im not leaving at the mo :p)
Junkie
Long time motivation...
I try to remember what it was that kept me plying other computer games for a long time.
I think it was the "whow! there is more" idea and the ability to change things or do them a different way the next time.
In NC terms:
More player - run businesses.
Things you must play for... (you can`t buy them!:eek:) and you can show - off with. ("have you seen my new car / gun / flat / etc.)
Remember: Nothing ages a car more than a neighbour with a new one!
What if a CA-Master can don a CopBot armour and really do police work?
What if a TG-Master can persuade NPCs to defect?
How to become Administrator of Tech Haven?
...:rolleyes: *sigh*
The problem in this game is respect, or lack of it, the little guy ie. Me, gets none, from kk, other players or gms,
To say kk dont show respect is unfair, they are one of the best companys to run a mmorpg, and other than sometimes coming forward with things faster i dont think they could improve much more.
Feel free to call me a fanboi, because to be honest i dont give a shit what you think of me anymore, something happened in my loife recently rthat showed me how petty some people are, and how i need to get over my 'wanna be liked' attitude.
This game suffers from a lack of content, its pretty obvious to see, but WE can't blame kk for that after all when was the last player run event you attended, supported, and didnt ruin, whne was the last Gm event you didnt turn around and say was boring spawn sessions? YOU bring it on yourselves, and tbh, ive lost any respect for a lot of you, some of you constanltly gain respect from me, but sadly the majority just serve to piss me off now.
The Community itself is its own worst enemy, how many of us have left just because a certain clan or a certain person did something, or said something, look at uranus, unless you join one of the big clans your nothing, if you do your branded, wtf is up with that, i've been asked to join/fight for all of them at some point, and i've refused, i like to think i have a rep for being a good guy, and i am not gonna tarnish that by involving myself in petty and fuckin lame abuse wars.
This community used *note used* to be the best MMORPG community ive known, as i've said on many occasions its gone to shit, good people left, and the good ones that remained are bitter and twisted by all the shite thats gone on.
To say the game lacks content isnt entirely true, if it was then it's not entirely kk's fault, if we the community actually take a step back and see wtf we're doing then maybe it'd be a lot more interesting, balanced, and fun again.
Every day now we see more posts, nerf spys, nerf tanks, nerf ppus, ner apus, nerf pes, raise spys PSI cap, raise tanks cock cap,
seriously people, if that was the problem dont you fukin think itd have been done by now?
The game is the closest to balance it had been in a long time, ppu's are being 'nerfed' to an acceptable state, tanks are getting more choice over pvp, etc etc.
i have to wonder though, when the game is balanced, will you actually realise it is? or will you continue to want the petty little shit you always did.
KK cannot enforce roleplay, in fact nor can i, because it's not like i havent tried, my old clan RP'd tottally, it lost us prospective members because some people just DO NOT want to rp.............wich saddens me, i wouldnt mind ift hey just left the Rp'rs to it, but they dont, theres nothing worse than arguing the injustices of the cityadmin outside CAHQ when some TG noob comes and starts calling you a tosser, i mean ffs people grow up, a lot.
Someones got a sig here of how close they are to quitting because of the community, heres mine.
[//////////////////]
Like jester i used to play a lot, probably more than i should have, nowadays i find myself logging in less and less, if i wanna talk to someone i have msn irc or some other chat prog, if i wanna game then i've got plenty other choices, neocron has held me for over a year, it'll continue to hold me in the short term, ive made some goo friends recently, people who've made the game fun for me again, i tried to get them to come to uranus, got em to login, got em to plaza 1, some asshipe starts shouting 'white pride world wide' they quit. That caused me to quit uranus more than anyother reason, ive said it before, i can tolerate almost anything, but somethings are too far.
If necron gets new players i wonder if it'd be beneficial or in-fact detrimental to it............new players gain more money, gain more content, gain more players, but new shit players, bring more shit, lose kk money cos they cause people to leave *ie me shortly* ergo less content, less players, less money, less support etc.
I guess i just hate people too much heh, but, tbh its not unwarranted.
Oath.
You know where to PM me, if ya wanna say something, be advised i dont take flames well at the moment.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 12:44
lol... medicant SMG's... player sold only :p
Gatling pistol... player sold only :p
there needs to be more like this, however the server just gets flooded and it makes no difference
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I found myself realising this game has approximately zero content.
That is quite an offensive remark as Neocron has far from "Zero Content".
You can not say that:
Vehicals - Not Every MMORPG has these, not ones that fly, ones that go faster than other, ones that allow you to control the path they take (for instance unlike the horses in DAOC).
Apts - Unique to everybody who joins Neocron as a new runner, yet the apartment system is flexible enough to allow you to purchase and sell more and in this case store more items.
NeoFrag - The heavily underused center of fighting. Implemented because people complained about not being able to practise. So it gets stuck in, and BOOM - 3 people use it.
New Mobs - New mobs are added every now and then, to keep the spice intresting, its a shame you seem to think you have killed them *all* when i can tell you for a starter.... you have not.
Rares - a Huge rare system using a mix of guns/spells and trades can you get an item which gives you an edge in pvp, or using the machina-glove, an edge of competition over other traders.
PvP - again a massive part of the game, Very few games have ever pulled off the balancing between PVM and PVP (allowing you to do both) like neocron has, while online and an FPS at that.
PvM - 100's of mobs to attack and be attacked from, all with different loot, ranks, and places of residence. A hugly complicated system of placment and spawn times is used. Its not as easy as it all seems.
Trade - Imp/Barter/Hack/Constuct/Repair/Buff the trade system is limitless, using over 1000 items it is possible to constuct every weapon in the game, each with different stats and req's and firing mods and ammo useage.
Can you be the best there is within your trade area? If people stayed out of plaza 1 all day and moved to the less dense but more attractive VR zones then we would find a massive influx of new traders.
Classes - 4 classes each with a different area of expertise, wether you fight, heal, snipe or run up close and hit each other in the face with glowing sticks, its possible in Neocron. 100's of different ways to attack people using the 100's of weapons. Giving your self an edge over the competition using the rare system is still something nobody has completly figured out.
Amour - 100's of amour patterns, items and equpiment can make you last longer than the enemy. Do you have the best there is from the mobs you can take, is your amour the correct level for your char?
Guns - A massive collection of guns and weapons are avaible to anyone who wishes to use one. (and none of this "but you have to gimp to use it", stay away from the cookie cutter setup and experiment, a massive uncharted area of neocron nobody ever touches. You never know, you might make an uber char who's unstopable). Each class and each lvl has a number of guns it can aim for.... each with different build patterns and each with different uses against certian mobs.
Spells - The whole usage of spells has caused massive problems, yet saved many peoples lives during the play of neocron. You have an aggressive monk who can rip apart a man from 100ft or the passive monk whos main aim in life is to heal and protect.
100's of spells each with different uses and levels and tactics can be used in both PVM and PVP.
Storyline - love it or hate it, the storyline of NC is fantastic and it changes. Alot of people fail to care or notice about it. Read up on it. It highlights the past the present and the future.
NPC's - 1000's of NPC's each with a different purpose in the world. once again i can bet you haven't spoken to everyone of them.
Epic Runs - huge story driven missions that give a reward, each having its own slant of the History of the great city.
Cave Runs - massive team adventures where by working together and pushing forward you can work towards achieving that special item.
ave Bosses with special drops - as above
Differently structured Wasteland zones - Each changes depending on the path you take. from the deserts in the east to the swamps in the west. Its a massive area, yet not fully explored.
OP zones - One of the biggest parts of Neocron is the abilty to fight over land. have you ever owned every op on every server? the second that happens i will give you one million credits from my personal char. As i know it won't happen.
Missions - 100's of missions (and i wrote some of them so don't be saying they are crap!) allowing you to create a char and build it slowly, rather than "OMG I'M CAPPED IN 2 HOURS" people always say. Thats not playing the game, thats rushing it...and you're missing so much.
MC5 - do you know all there is to know about this place? i think not.
Right that was a HUGELY BASIC outline of what? 1/4 of the stuff in neocron.
If you say there is zero content again... or "bleh i'm a high level player I CAN'T DO NOTHING!" (which is BS) then i'll spawn some handcuffs and a box and leave you floating naked above plaza 1.
True, balance will never be truly finished but it's not so bad at the moment.
I think getting the faction counselors involved in the story, for small spontaneous events could help. Little events like (Runner A has stolen something important from our faction, go and get it back by any means) obviously runner A could be played by a willing player or another FC. There are lots of little events that I can see would take no planning at all. "Our faction needs stuff" researching/constructing/finding etc.....
In all my time playing NC I have only spoken to an FC once. That didn't last long as everyone in the meeting discovered you could jump out of the window of the apartment we were in and prompty got stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Events are not the only thing to add depth though. The story although there, always takes a back seat to other things. Maybe if they could make the story effect day to day running of NC but at an accelerated rate, so every week there is some twist and something tangible for runners to see/do.
I have been to a few events, and I enjoyed myself but the constant bickering (clan A decided to KoS our clan during the event) can be a little much so faction only events would help here.
To help people get interested in this game I would like to see volunteers (a special made char on a spare slot (don't know how it would work on pluto) with some cash and n00b items given to them (by KK or anyone..why not a player run charity?), they can then hang out searching new players to the game and help them on their way to being addicted to neocrack. Someone mentioned another MMORPG has a "new player" flag in the DB...Maybe implementing this here could also help ??
I would like to see things for all different levels of runner added to the game.
High level content is almost zero as OP wars no longer reley on skill, but who has the biggest alliance with half the server. I like OP fights as it is something different to do now and again, but they have zero fun and IMHO not worth turing up for when there is absolutly zero chance of winning.
hmm, seem to have gone a bit OT..redesign the whole OP idea (add mini outposts for clans under 50 ? (shack in a field :lol: ))
Originally posted by Preshock
That is quite an offensive remark as Neocron has far from "Zero Content".
You can not say that:
YADA YADA
Right that was a HUGELY BASIC outline of what? 1/4 of the stuff in neocron.
If you say there is zero content again... or "bleh i'm a high level player I CAN'T DO NOTHING!" (which is BS) then i'll spawn some handcuffs and a box and leave you floating naked above plaza 1.
Exactly.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 12:56
i wanna be spawned in a box above plaze 1... that would be sweet!
oh and sorry to see your pissed off oath - hope whatever happened to you in RL isnt too serious man
I like Neocron how it is now.
But I hate how it has the potential to be much more.
Thats all I have to say.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 13:00
there are many things i dont like abouit it... but none are enough to make me quit yet.
however i will seriouslly consider quitting for FOMK beta
understand here... a pre beta game holds more intrest than a game i have played for 14-15 months here... its an MMORPG - it should never get boring that quick
understand here... a pre beta game holds more intrest than a game i have played for 14-15 months here
erm, won't it always be like this as the new game is well......new
A game you have been playing for 14-15 months will eventually get tiresome but a new game can offer a lot more..instantly.
Unless you are really addicted to this game any new game coming out in the same vein as NC will attract NC players just for the change. Whether they come back or not is dependant on how good the new game is.
edit:typos
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 13:09
with a normal game yes... but the whle point of an MMORPG is the dynamic . constant gaming world where a player plays for years!
something like FFVII i wouldnt play for 15 months and bitch cos it got boring... but an MMORPG it should be easily possible to continue having the same amount of fun
:edit:
i played:
DAoC for 2 years
EQ for 2 years
UO for 3 years
AO for 6 months (hated it)
PS for beta (lol hated it)
If you ask me one thing that needs to be toned down is the need for specialisation. Its all geared towards PvP as it is now. Everyone is pumping up their skills to be the absolute best and it gets a bit boring after a while. One thing is to have certain drawbacks from using different skills, its another when you are totally gimped for doing so. When you meet a noob, what is the advice you give him/her? Get your (insert combat skill) as high as possible and soforth. You are in the get get get carusell at once.
There should be some strength in diversity not totall gimpage.
To improve NC with content I would like to see the following things:
Somekind of RTS game underlying the op system.
Remember we are all employees of our different factions. How come we dont get any assignments from our bosses?
How about convoy missions where you need to transfer such big amounts of something that you need a new transport vehicle to get it across the wastes. For example your clan is ordered to meet up at mb to take something across to gaya mines or something like that.
Perhaps it could be needed that vehicles need to transfer stored energy for the ops.
One problem I see with improving RP is that many functions i can think of will by some be considered timesinks and alienate the casual gamer. One more example: Vehicles, imagine no GR`s. You get a group in your apc and travel out. Its the only way to travel because they have alot more speed or runspeed has been nerfed or zones made alot bigger. Also the apc has a trunk that can carry all the loot cause loot has been made alot heavier(vehicle parts and stuff like that). There, I made room for a little rp because all this has to be organized and you can sit and chat in the apc on the way. Drawback? Going hunting is gonna take ages and people will go XXXXXX timesinks.
Hmmm, I must rethink my previous statement.
I like Neocron just fine except for the numerous things that cause crashes or the numerous bugs.
I also hate how it has huge potential thats yet to be discovered.
Thats all I have to say.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 13:16
Originally posted by Mirco
Remember we are all employees of our different factions. How come we dont get any assignments from our bosses?
cos there is no content...
*hides from preshock*
:p :lol: lol :lol: :p
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 13:30
Shhhhh Pre, I didn't mean it like that, but compare your list to the list of most other MMOs and you'll find it's easily out matched by SWG, you compare PvP to other MMOs and find it's easily out matched by PS...
I wasn't saying this game is dead.
I wasn't saying it's going to die.
I could write a really long post in reply to your points...
Some of those are undeniably content, but others are not.
PvM isn't, in itself, content, rare farming, isn't, in itself content.
Nulli would give you an explanation of all that..
What I was refering to, was the fact that most of this community is content with just Quake3 in a constant world.
...........but that's the fatal flaw :p
Q3 in a constant world with some factions and a beautifully crafted out world, with an RPG Leveling scale and an item system doesn't make for an MMORPG.
PvP will only last so long for certain people...
Pre-PvP
This game took me 3 months to cap and flavour the map, caves, rares, and everything that was in the game.
Epics took me about 2 weeks (10-15 hours if it were in one solid block).
PvP, took me 2-3 months to properly observe.
Basically after 6 months.. I'd done everything.
I stayed for the politics, I stayed, simply, because I have a lot of friends in a clan I cared about, and I wanted to look after them.
...For four(?) months, I PvPed and looked after them, as best I could until the flaw of the game caught me and smacked me about.
Certain members of this community have blinded me from it because they are genuinely nice people.
I love this game and it has so much potential in so many ways.
But I want to see it go FURTHER, I want MORE :p
I want consequences for PvP on more than just the personal scale.
I want events that don't need GMs for special effects to happen (like the trophies at TG).
I'd like to be able to impact my faction, to give them guards and things other than myself through ingame actions, rather than just whining on a forum :p
I'd like to be able to setup shops.
I'd like to be able to share apartments outside clans.
I'd like to be able to effect waring factions allignments.
Or allied factions allignments.
I'd like to be able to destroy factions (tell me...how hard would it be to crush Protopharma ? most decently sized clans have more capacity to do things than most whole factions...)
I'd like to be able to create factions, write histories for these factions WITH MY ACTIONS.
Good Basis - Needs The Creme dela Creme toppings.
If you know what I mean ;)
I don't know about the other people playing this game but I for one want to make it closer to the perfect game...
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 13:38
a 'true' dynamic world eh? >.<
yeah i can agree with 99% of what QD just said. this game had (and IMO still has) MASSIVE potential. it could be so much more than it is.
i remember my first time seeing a WBT... i was shit scared! now my pistol spy killes it in 4-5 clips and takes half damage. how is that interesting PvM? (i realise that last bit was off topic... but wanted to add it in)
Original monk
25-11-03, 13:39
nice thread quantumdelta, and i must agree with you every line ...
Youre not only talking about RP here, its the overall depth of the game that keeps us going: so that 1 or 2 new weapons they add doesnt gonna make us stay, and im not asking for more weaps here ...
Yust like you i would like to see real shops, that people can make in there own appartments etc, and real missions for clans based on the size and capability's of that clan, these things arent like and epicrun -> you cant make the run and let it go its way ...
a real run involving clans needs a team of GM's (or counsellers,like one of every faction) constantly online, working on the missions and talking to eachother about em (some kind of GIANT factionintertwined epics/events) where you have a goal you can work for ... all this integrated in the story and RP-wise ffcourse, or take for example the faction counsellers: they should give missions to clans where they get rewarded for: for example tangent counseller creating a mission for a big tangentclan togheter with the biotech counseller, these missions involve the war between em and the constant struggle between the 2 factions: all related and surrounding rare chips and rareweapons ... otherwise the nonRPers dont wonna get involved :) they need sumthing they can hold later on the day for all there efforts ...
We need special stuff, and 1 event like every 8 months (and some events for like small select groups of players :wtf: ) wont do
The story has to be present in everyday neocronlife constantly ...
Besides all the "RP" content they cant loose focus on the bugs, stability and playability of the game ffcourse ...
anyway i hope this thread is a step in the good direction of extra depth ... this is also what i call hilevel content, not that you need to be hi-level to take part of it, the clanmissions and the shops for example must provide a "high"er-level of content...
enjoy playing, roleplaying and browsing forums
Off topic...
QD do you really believe that PvP will ever be balanced?
Man you need a reality check.
Your last Idea regarding self-buffing was to take the emphasis away from Monk-O-Cron and start to balance things yes?
Well Even if that happened... the strongest PvP team would move from PPU+APU to PPU+PE. Sounds to me like your solving 1 problem with another.
On topic...
Best advice I can give you is to leave NC for a while... come back and see the changes at a later date.
You are bored of this game. Plain and simple. Find something else to do until the Neocrack tells you you need another hit.
Alternatively...
Start a new char and go kill some rats and hack some boxes. You need to go and remember how you fell in love with this game in the first place. I've done it before now and believe me it's a refreshing tonic. Best to do this on a diff server imo (have you already on saturn :-o ).
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 14:07
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
Off topic...
QD do you really believe that PvP will ever be balanced?
Man you need a reality check.
Your last Idea regarding self-buffing was to take the emphasis away from Monk-O-Cron and start to balance things yes?
Well Even if that happened... the strongest PvP team would move from PPU+APU to PPU+PE. Sounds to me like your solving 1 problem with another.
Uhh no...
People who think PEs would become the ruling class make me giggle.
Sure, it hinges slightly on stealth, but personally speaking, making the PE the highest defencive (straight defence) combat class in op fights like duels would still not make them overpowered.
Stealth, yea, sure, it's a little questionable, but, other than that?
Rifle PEs have slow RoF but decent power, best at range, decent short rangers.
Pistolers would have to get in close meaning APUs would rip them to shreds.
Snipers are next to useless in op fights due to op walls.
So generally speaking unless you're talking about some weird droner complex, you're wrong.
Best PPU team would be the Tank and the PPU.
Because the Tank has decent defence already, and higher attack.
This should be made OBVIOUS by PPU+APU > All.
Because APU has the highest ATTACK.
PPU+Tank would be better because all the downsides of Tanks would near enough be removed.
Ask VetteroX about his experiences PKing with a PPU team mate.
He is dozens of times more effective on his Tank than with His PE.
He might be egotistical but with his PvP Expertise and non-Biased Nature (He uses what he thinks is best suited for him to win, he's said it to me before, he's not loyal to anything he just goes with what is best suited to his way of playing, he even went so far as to agree with me that other than the current RoLH setup RoG PE > Pistol PEs, but I think he uses Pistols because of the increased independance..).
I was saying Balance will soon be close enough, for us to ignore it, near enough as a community at least.
I personally, for as long as I am here keep an eye ON PvP balance, but soon it will not be something I would say is a major concern.
Which is why I bring this discussion forth :p
On topic...
Best advice I can give you is to leave NC for a while... come back and see the changes at a later date.
You are bored of this game. Plain and simple. Find something else to do until the Neocrack tells you you need another hit.
Alternatively...
Start a new char and go kill some rats and hack some boxes. You need to go and remember how you fell in love with this game in the first place. I've done it before now and believe me it's a refreshing tonic. Best to do this on a diff server imo (have you already on saturn :-o ).
I'm Bored, of the game...
I'm saying the game could be far greater than it is already.
I, unlike everyone else seems to be, am not complaicent and waiting for DoY to magically come and fix things, because it wont.
the changes have to be made constantly.Read the posts above your own, don't just address mine.
Heh. Amusing post, though.
PvP will never truly be balanced, skill has alot to do with it.
But many things can be done to balance the playing field if everyone was an average.
I just hope you know that Quantum Delta has a great understanding for all aspects of the game.
I tried to make my reply as light hearted as possible :)
Reading your recent posts and topics tho QD, you seem to be reaching for something that isn't there and I think that's what you're getting at in here.
People have been campaigning for the likes of shops and stuff (There is a player-run shop on 1 server) for ages and to no avail.
I disagree with Zanathos also. I respect QD and believe he is very learned, but I truly believe he's bored and just hasn't admitted it yet. I disagree because QD may talk about a broader spectrum of things but they all equal not only making the game better... but actually making the game interesting again for himself.
Sorry to Psycho-analyse u QD no offence meant. I probably got it wrong anyway.
We do need more.
We deserve more.
It just ain't happenin' :/
Not until we get a Publisher. (DoY I know but... i must believe)
[EDIT] I meant PPU + PE team would be strongest not PE = The greatest btw. Stealth must go.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 14:26
IMHO other than 2 or 3 minor tweaks PvP is balanced as it is...
and QD is sayin what i have said for months... DoY wont make the slightest difference. in fact it will add a few more weapons / items (and bugs with it!) and thats it. you expect thousands of people to come in... you expect it to fix everything...
i DO want it to come, i am waiting for it, but im not pinning all my hope on it and im not staying in the game because of it
I wasnt countering what you said about Quantum Delta, just saying he has a great understanding of the game.
When DoY comes out and they have a good publisher, im sure KK will begin to focus more on things like this.
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 14:31
Close to the truth.
I'm not bored, though, and boredom with this game will not be the reason I will leave, either.
I do truly believe that balance will be close enough to complete after a few patches providing those patches balance in the right directions.
I will begin to campaign for things like this, that add to the game, and attempt to find ways that KK could implement them fairly easily.
As for reaching for things that aren't there.
I'm an Idealist ;)
PPU+PE wont be the strongest combo, trust me.
It wasn't called Tank-O-Cron for a reason.
And there have not been enough changes to make PEs greater than Tanks, especially since Tanks have not been nerfed.
Tactically speaking, PPU+Tank is only just behind the current PPU+APU.
Some people I know even prefer it.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i DO want it to come, i am waiting for it, but im not pinning all my hope on it and im not staying in the game because of it
Says it all.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 14:38
Originally posted by Zanathos
I wasnt countering what you said about Quantum Delta, just saying he has a great understanding of the game.
When DoY comes out and they have a good publisher, im sure KK will begin to focus more on things like this.
out of curiosity how much of KK's time do you think is spent looking for a publisher?
is MJS browsing around in any way slowing the work of the coder fixing bugs etc? no... this has no effect on the game at all at this moment in time. so the boss and a couple of Aide's are shopping around. the company does not grind to a standstill.
as for DoY, we seem to get a random percentage each time a KK guy comments on it... im sure one of the first comments (after stating they are after a new publisher) was 90% or something close... you would think that 10% would be done?
now if you wish to counter with 'it is, they will release with a new publisher' then why, oh why, do we have to wait for the release before the coders get onto the bugs etc...
ok so assuming they are coding DoY. they wont have the entire team working on an expansion, leaving the game to rot away (at least i fucking hope not). there coding team has only ever been what? 3? 4 coders? thats 2 on each if we are lucky... these 2 coders have not fixed bugs that have been in game for at least 15 months. i realise its not as easy as adding 'set bugs_and_crashes 0' in the coding :p ... but surely if the company could not handle the game, they should have been less ambiguas (spelling).
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
PPU+PE wont be the strongest combo, trust me.
It wasn't called Tank-O-Cron for a reason.
And there have not been enough changes to make PEs greater than Tanks, especially since Tanks have not been nerfed.
Tactically speaking, PPU+Tank is only just behind the current PPU+APU.
Some people I know even prefer it.
*cough*
You know my opinion on this.
PvP is as near balanced as possible.
I agree tanks havent been nerfed, butthey do need some loving.............and the issue of melee tanks now raises......
in order to *almost* cap a cs, a tank needs almost every point into heavy..........melee tanks........can have 114 force resist........220 melee and have a ton of transport..............it also frees their int.
kinda unfair when ya think about it eh?
But yeah,
whatever heh.
You know... they could be putting bug fixes in DoY.
We dont know, were not telepathic.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:03
Originally posted by Zanathos
You know... they could be putting bug fixes in DoY.
We dont know, were not telepathic.
instead of releasing them now? if KK do that they are no doubt the stupidest company ever :p
if they have bug fixes why would they wait? O_o
Who knows, were not telepathic :)
What they finally decide isnt up to us.
Originally posted by Zanathos
Who knows, were not telepathic :)
I am............i say...............
We're all KOS
I see we, rather predictably, end up talking about PvP in yet another thread
QD's post goes way beyond PvP, and theres alot more to this game (and there could be even more to this game) that goes way beyond PvP
Yet everyone always seems to bloody obsessed with PvP.......
Im not obsessed with PvP. In my 4 months of playing this game ive killed maybe 4 people...... 1 guy per month :D
So far at least.
But you cant deny the fact that it exists.
But that truly isnt the point of this thread. Its pointing out the fact that theres little depth to the games content.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:18
/me was talking about coding and how DoY will not save NC...
Yet everyone always seems to bloody obsessed with PvP
that is essentially what most people play the game for! there is no denying that fact.
Dynamics give us the ability to add howeversomuch depth we want, hell, as QD said, it's the dynamics(politics & friends) that keep him playing, not the op wars or pvm.
QD I will support you in your campaign.
4 Things that are a priority for me
- Improved Mob AI. It's just not challenging enough to have to whack something ten times as hard to kill it. I want to have to hunt the bugger for real... Mobs in their current state play more like drones... Move, fire, Move, Fire... no dodging or sense of self preservation.
- Improved NPC interaction. Because their is none. Make em move and talk stuff that isn't bollocks. Callash has done a great job with his efforts to be fair but it's not enough... make em walk too.
- Rares DB on the citycom. Easy database query that one.
Should have been in from the start.
- Player made missions/team missions (like you already said)
On the subject of DoY. It may not be true, but I feel they have drip fed us 50% of it already in terms of content. I am still anticipating it will be good but how much will be left for the release... if it happens?
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:53
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
QD I will support you in your campaign.
4 Things that are a priority for me
- Improved Mob AI. It's just not challenging enough to have to whack something ten times as hard to kill it. I want to have to hunt the bugger for real... Mobs in their current state play more like drones... Move, fire, Move, Fire... no dodging or sense of self preservation.
- Improved NPC interaction. Because their is none. Make em move and talk stuff that isn't bollocks. Callash has done a great job with his efforts to be fair but it's not enough... make em walk too.
- Rares DB on the citycom. Easy database query that one.
Should have been in from the start.
- Player made missions/team missions (like you already said)
On the subject of DoY. It may not be true, but I feel they have drip fed us 50% of it already in terms of content. I am still anticipating it will be good but how much will be left for the release... if it happens?
yes yes yes and yes...
/me signs up for the revolution
I think whats missing is suprise.
For example, i happen to KNOW how easy it would be to have...
ADMIN: TG HAVE INVADED NEOCRON VIA PEPPER PARK. SEVERAL CA GUARDS HAVE ARRIVED TO ELIMINATE THE THREAT.
Simple, spawn 80 TG Guards and 100 CA Guards.
Let the players do the rest!
That would take all of 5 mins to set up, right?
Somethin new not every 2 months, but every few days.
Dedicate one GM to setting up things like this and you'll notice the smiles appearing back on peoples faces :)
Originally posted by L0KI
I think whats missing is suprise.
For example, i happen to KNOW how easy it would be to have...
ADMIN: TG HAVE INVADED NEOCRON VIA PEPPER PARK. SEVERAL CA GUARDS HAVE ARRIVED TO ELIMINATE THE TREAT.
Simple, spawn 80 TG Guards and 100 CA Guards.
Let the players do the rest!
That would take all of 5 mins to set up, right?
Somethin new not every 2 months, but every few days.
Dedicate one GM to setting up things like this and you'll notice the smiles appearing back on peoples faces :) Olny issue there IS,
Lag caused by so many people / things in one zone.
Fps drop caused by so many people / things in one zone .
But certainly would pwn heh.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 16:04
that would be sweet... maybe have a couple of Kami's appear out of a sewer and fire on both sides >.<
I'd be there for an event like this (besides the fact that it would crash the zone lol)
Bob Monkhouse
25-11-03, 16:04
A question for all the "PvP is what the majority of people play NC for" folks...........
What would give you more enjoyment? The current system, where you can get together a HUGE clan, go out conquer EVERY OP, roam the map and kill EVERYONE on it, and at the end of the day, NOTHING has really changed?
Or a system where you have a REALLY good reason to PvP? You can actually alter how the game world functions?
PvP and RP/content are mutually dependant IMHO. The basis of good drama is conflict. There would probably be even more PvP if it was integrated into a "big Picture".
I believe KK is going down this road anyway, because I have seen many instances where people are told "go ask your FC about that". We have had Constructor clubs, parties etc, now we players need to get our arses in gear, compile a more globalised set of things we want (outside of combat mechanics) and present them to KK. I am sure that anything which can be implemented will.
Dribble Joy
25-11-03, 16:38
Damn you Qd, damn you to hell.
I was just about to start a thread about the same thing. grrrrr....
Interactive missions, dynamic faction relations (to an extent, overall storyline should be maintained over all servers)
Players shops, player missions, NPCs that don't just tell you to go from place to place, that let you MAKE CHOICES, rewards (or indeed penalties) depending on those choices and the outcomes resulting from them.
The main reason people don't RP, don't want to RP is that there simply is no end result in it. Give them a motive, a goal to aim for and people may start getting involved in the world we play in.
Things like the blood feud between BT and TT, why not have missions/events that let players affect the overall profit margins of the companies?
Things like a 1 slot cabinet that's model is a large stake, and can be placed, add a dog tag to it, and the model of the dog tag owners is placed on the stake (you take the tags from the dead body) and stick it outside MB/TH/TG/CA/NC or whatever.
Let people affect the world.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 16:40
let us leave NC and form our own society with missions and content... let us call it Content Haven! we can stay neutral to the NC factions - except those who build weapons and become a threat to us...
@ QD
You are missing one major area of ALL mmorpgs, the FUN factor.
The way you go on "I did this in a 15 hour block" etc is work, its not a fun factor, take yout're time, experience things to the full before going "OK I DID THIS NOW I HAVE TO DO THIS FOR 14 HOURS"
Thats not a game..... thats just plodding through as fast as possible.
I myself have played this game alot longer than you QD, belive or not, i have, and i've played it alot, but.......i didn't rush it because i knew that a game can be spolied like that easily....
i still get lost in the northen sectors, i've only been to mc5 twice and never "farmed".... i consider trying to constuct a rare fun and the bonus i get from its consuction is satisfaction...not the "OK NOW I HAVE THIS I MUST PK 20 PEOPLE AND DO SOMETHING ELSE"
That is not a game, its a rush of features meaning your not living to the maxium potential of any of them.
And you say that this game fails in PvM according to SWG and Fails in PVP according to PS.......well neither of those games do both well.
In Swg you can't stand on a hill and snipe somebody in real time.... in PS you can't run away from a firemob who wants your skin for a new helmet.
Alot of these games have nothing on Neocron, yet you've played it along time, and its not just potential making you stay.
If you consider that KK are expanding the product all the time, and more and more threads are opening saying "I'm back!" you'll notice that its not because Monks have been nerfed or tanks have been made "uber" its because alot of the competition holds nothing on Neocron.
Personally i feel it may be time for you to move on, and try another mmorpg and even put the dedication into that you have Neocron, then in 6 months, come back......the game will be fresh (but not new, as with all games a game can never have its "WOO" appeal) and new content may of been added, who knows, Reakktor might even of released DOY......
we can live in hope.
(These are of course my personal views)
Do you mean slow down the speed in which we level our characters or slow down how much we explore?
Neocron is a fast leveling game, its been like that for a long time.
No one wants to use an unlabeled pinfire nailgun when theres an A&W rapid fire smg224 waiting for them.
Hence they level as fast as they can to get it over with.
Exploring is a different matter. After almost a month, my Private Eye on Pluto is now rank 56/62. I dont have much leveling left to do. Theres not much worth while to explore too.
El Farid - get titan armor (I think)
get viper armor
get bat queen bones
I cant think of anything else but for exploring, these are the only rewards.
Theres no point to exploring alot of the world. I will eventually explore every zone but it'll be pretty damn boring. Theres little to see out there.
If there were ancient ruins from back in the 22nd century to explore, history to discover, cultures to visit, it would be worth it.
Heck, id like to go visit a Mutant Village (REGENTS!!!!!)
Really theres only so much to do after you reach a certain point.
But there could be much more depth into the game.
I'll do what I can to make Neocron fun, but theres only so much one man can truly do.
Neocron = zzzzzzz
nuff said
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 18:42
Pre, you misread me ;)
It was the equivilent of a 15 hour block, over the time period I said, I took 15 hours of gameplay out of the other things I did in the game at the same time :)
I don't farm MC5, I don't feverishly rush through things (..okay, I super-power leveled my PPU and my Tank...but, I actually enjoyed leveling both of them like that :p)
NC has a nice balance of both, it's a decent game to play at the moment.
I just wanna make it better ;)
My last game, I played it, and it's predacessor for 6 years straight.
Why?
Because there is no game better than those two.
However after 6 years, I'd flown every mission, I'd gotten every medal, I'd gained my target rank (Captain) I'd beaten every single pilot who had skill and taught the only person that could beat me.
Eventually I left, not because I ran out of things to do... but because the community was pretty dead.
At this moment there's probably 8 people (if that) on this whole planet playing that game online.
I was pretty much one of the last people to hang up my wings and turn the lights out.
I still drop in from time to time..but even rusted all to hell (10% of what I used to be?) I can fly 4v1 against the people left and win :/
No challenge.
It's still fun though...
Maybe if you had played FreeSpace2, and seen what AI and *Player Created* Missions could be like you'd understand why I am so active in trying to get KK to improve this game.
On all fronts.
I really have faith in Neocron, I have belief in it's potential and I think it can be even better than it currently is.
Which, is the best damned MMORPG Available in this country.
Originally posted by Zanathos
I cant think of anything else but for exploring, these are the only rewards.
This isnt a direct dig at Zan but I think this is the root problem with alot of (newer/younger) MMORPG players (and I accept I may be wayyy wrong about the newer/younger part)
They are totally reward driven
Now thats a bit vague, what I really mean is that anything that does not result in that persons character becoming better (due to increased xp/stats/equipment) is viewed as a waste of time
By comparison I got into a conversation a month ago on the boards about main sewer, the other guy, fortunately, refused to pander to my questions and only suggested I go check it out myself
Which resulted in a couple of really fun evenings exploring and mapping out most of main sewer (the bits that dont require hacking)
Did I get any new cool items - no
Did I get loads of xp - no (muties arent really a challenge unless there are loads)
Do I enjoy every minute of it and wonder what I'd find around the next bend - yep
This I believe is also the main issue that most PvP players have (i.e. wanting to loot items). I cant relate to this because my FPS Teamfortress days were driven by defeating the other guys, and since I now dont have anywhere near as much disposable time as the younger guys, I can appreciate how much of a setback losing my items to a ganker would be (be more acceptable if the fight was fair, but we all know how likely that is dont we)
Its not that theres no rewards, just theres no point to exploring alot of the world of Neocron.
Theres really not much to discover.
Zan I disagree with you.
I could have acpped my tank and PPU long ago... but I chose not to. They are both high level chars now but both are still uncapped. I still go out for drives and stuff.. to see what's happening. If anyone hasn;t been to regants lately you really should go. But only if ur a PPU cos you won't make it from 1 end of the zone to the other by yourself otherwise.
If you powerlevelled because everyone else has then more fool you imo.
That GM bloke has a great outlook to this game and more power to him. I also agree with QD cause he probably has seen a lot of this game and it does need extra content, even though there is a lot there already.
I'm well travelled tho. My missus thinks it's funny when I give someone a lift somewhere different accross the map... i don;t even use any maps to get there.. I know loads of nifty little shortcuts across heavy terrain too. I became a good driver if nothing else in this game lol :)
None of my characters are capped and probably wont be for a quite awile.
Dont you think a Private Eye could survive Regents? :D
I like Neocron how it is right now, but id like it more if it was at its full potential.
QuantumDelta
25-11-03, 19:33
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
That GM bloke has a great outlook to this game and more power to him. I also agree with QD cause he probably has seen a lot of this game and it does need extra content, even though there is a lot there already.
I know the feeling.
I loved my HH4x4 :p
Gave it up to my cookie cutter-cutter setup.
...That an the AGL nerf on PEs :P
There are some really, really beautiful spots in this game, but no reason to visit them.
...like the DoY OP was actually one of my favourite spots to spend some quiet time, it used to spawn very very well, and it has great views on some of the hills of the sun rising/setting over the trees.
I've also, observed a partial eclipse in Neocron (Although nothing actually happened to the brightness of the game....the moon moved across the sun almost completely :p)
I can see where Preshock is coming from and I can definitely agree with many of his points, but ultimately I have to side with QD as most of his post is where I am coming from too.
The content is very small. I do my best to not become complacent and join the bandwagon, I try to experience everything there is to the game. For one I started a player run event thats under new leadership but still going strong after 8 months, my PE setup is not cookie cutter as I am a high tech pulselaser user (my point being I am constantly testing out new setups that are FUN), and I take every opportunity to explore the different places in the game even if I have already been there. I am also highly involved in roleplay, PvP, and even hunting.
I love the story line and try to get as involved in it as I can but ultimately I have no effect on anything. (Example, my FA character is highly opposed to both CA and DoY and wants TH to remain its own free state).
Yet despite this, sometimes I log on and I wish there was something more to do. I wish I there was more depth in roleplay and quests as QDs original statement was. It seems like these issues are being placed on the back burner and being ignored. Sure I am the first to strive for balance in PvP, but ultimately, even with balanced PvP, its not enough to keep many people here. There are so many simple things that could do this. Player run shops and shared apartments is a small step that would make a HUGE difference. FCs and Live Runs are a great step in the right direction but unfortunately both of those rely on GMs and FCs, the best thing to do would be to give some power into the hands of the players.
Would you be opposed to a player based council then?
A group of elected players meet once a month to discuss brainport topics and Community issues and feedback their findings to the community?
I would volunteer as chair :)
Maybe try and get Callash (or someone from KK?) to sit in the meetings, if possible, to provide the missing link between KK and the player base.
At the end post out findings up in a document and then invite feedback on that.
As long as we're realistic and try and find sensible and viable things for future implementation of course. Someone could volunteer their idea for discussion and we could add it to our agenda. We'd only need an IRC room to do it in.
The council would already have a lot to talk about.
What do you think?
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
Would you be opposed to a player based council then?
A group of elected players meet once a month to discuss brainport topics and Community issues and feedback their findings to the community?
I would volunteer as chair :)
Maybe try and get Callash (or someone from KK?) to sit in the meetings, if possible, to provide the missing link between KK and the player base.
At the end post out findings up in a document and then invite feedback on that.
As long as we're realistic and try and find sensible and viable things for future implementation of course. Someone could volunteer their idea for discussion and we could add it to our agenda. We'd only need an IRC room to do it in.
The council would already have a lot to talk about.
What do you think? Well there was something called NCAT for a while that was similiar to what you are proposing but I think it died, or something, not quite sure actually.
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