View Full Version : Remove or Raise Money Cap.
Psycho_Soldier
24-11-03, 10:30
18-20 mill money cap is way too low right now.
With the prices of MC5 chips at over 20+ mill its hard to have trusthworthy trades. So with the money capped raised it would be much better. Do you think it should be removed or raised?
remove it...it sucks trying not to go over 20 mill cuz you'll lose 2 mill if you do...dont see why their's a money cap anyways...the economy is fucked reguardless
If the cap goes up the price of high end items will follow it.
I find it annoying too but I vote it stays, the alternative is worse.
Originally posted by jernau
If the cap goes up the price of high end items will follow it.
I find it annoying too but I vote it stays, the alternative is worse.
I don't think prices will go up. Prices depend on what people are willing to pay. Increasing or removing the money cap will not change what things are worth to people.
If someone is trying to sell an MC5 chip for 25mil and no-one is willing to pay that, they can sit on it or reduce the price.
There are people with millions in clan banks and stockx, just so they can hold over 20mil. Its a pain having to move things around.
If you remove the cap people will charge 100mil for MC5s.
As long as some of us have that much money someone will demand it for ultra-rare items.
Like you say - there are ways to work around it already anyway.
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 14:48
people have that much anyway... i know a 2 man clan with about 100 mill in it O_o
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
people have that much anyway... i know a 2 man clan with about 100 mill in it O_o
True, they do.
My point is that if you up the base cap everyone will compete to cap that new level hance pushing more cash into the economy which will cause even more inflation.
Find a way to nuke all the damn money, this inflation sucks.
Originally posted by Rade
Find a way to nuke all the damn money, this inflation sucks.
I'm with Rade here. Remove ALL money and replace it all with Chitin and Glands. Chitin can be like dollars and green/blue/brown glands can be worth 5/10/25 cents respectively.
But make it so they don't stack and weigh 10 lbs each so we can't carry tons of money and have to use cabs. Plaza 3 aparments could only hold $330 in shiny chitin!
DOWN WITH TEH MONEH, UP WITH TEH BARTERING SYSTEM!
Btw, you're jsut saying that Psycho cuz you had to give someone money so you could hold the 10 mill I gave you for those DS parts :p See, you could've gotten 30,303 Plaza 3 apartment keys instead, all filled with juicy CHITIN!
But yeah, leave the caps as is, money is already ridiculously inflated as it is :(
Ok, thats not exactly what I meant but ok :P More like.. a guy
which sells you random rare parts for 50-100k, so people with
alot of money can go pool it into something. Or a NPC which sells
kami chips for 15 mill, eventually people will start buying em to be
special and all this damn cash will disappear.
Agree fully Rade.
More cash sinks is what's needed.
That said I am terrified of what KK consider a cash-sink.
If KK wiped out my cash I'd not even bother hanging about to bitch about it.
I vote no, why?
Because im trying to lower the insane prices for things. It all starts with one man.
Already I sell most useless rare parts for 50k (Mostly the weakest melee weapons and drone parts)
100k for other stuff that people dont usually use. Like thunderstorm, thunderbolt, etc...
150k for common stuff.
200k to 250k for common but very good stuff.
But I always ask how much people will pay first. Then I adjust the price accordingly or accept the price.
0 slot rare weapons shouldnt be more than 500k to 600k (100k for every part)
You people just ask for too much money on things.
They have to raise the money cap, its silly, and bring back money cubes!
increase it obviously
i dont think they will charge 100mill for mc5 chips
1.- they not worth that much
2.- eventually people will have many and the price will drop cuz no one needs em anymore
3.- few people actually have that much cash stored anywhere and are willing to spend it all on a chip when u can get about as much with a ppu buff
raise it to like 50 mill, of course those of us who want the beta days back can just remake the cashcubes that have 2 trizimillions of ncs in it
all hail the stock x bug :D
If more cash syncs are gonna be put in, they gotta be for HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS ONLY.
Starting off as a complete noob isn't that easy, but once you are well established its just a joke to make money.
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 17:33
Originally posted by g0rt
If more cash syncs are gonna be put in, they gotta be for HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS ONLY.
Starting off as a complete noob isn't that easy, but once you are well established its just a joke to make money.
w00t! a g0rt quote i can agree with! :D
i've never had more than 300k cash.
I don't want it to be changed.
Heavyporker
24-11-03, 19:05
hmmm... something along the line of diablo 2 - cash account cap tied to character level? as in 0/2 gets a cap of 100k, a /20 a cap of 1 mil, and a /50 gets a money cap of 30 mil, and the capped /60ish character gets a cap of 50 mil?
If you have 18 million cr THATS E FUCKING NUFF k? ;)
You can always put in clan money or give to another character! Besides doing some barter/cst/resell thing you cant just get 18 mill from mob hunting. I have just about every rare part and no one wants any of them....
Mumblyfish
24-11-03, 19:20
I agree with the "more cash sinks". How hard can it be? To think of some ways to force players burn money like that?
The aforementioned buying of random rareparts. 50k for a lowtech, 100k for a tech, 200k for a hightech. Great for tradeskillers.
This could be dodgy, but paying to increase your stat caps? How cool would it be to be able to pay 10 million as, say, a monk... and have your CON cap raise to 46? It'd have to be regulated, of course, as in the max you can boost any stat is to +5 the normal cap. For stat freaks like me, this would be heaven.
Uberlicious apartments. Viarosso Level 4? Cost a few million to buy... only they don't look like arse (like the current V3 apartment), and come with all the extras, such as 50 cabs, a swimming pool, luxurious bedroom... only the best for the wealthiest runners in Neocron...
An extension of that idea, the ability to go to a certain "epic run"-esque DRE vendor, a la the PAs, that lets you pick where you want your apartments to be. So you can get a guaranteed Plaza 1 mainstreet apartment, if needed. This is, of course, for crazy money. He IS an estate agent, after all...
I'm sure other people can do better.
Psycho Killa
24-11-03, 19:22
Remove it for a day just so we can see how many people suddenly have 10 billion dollars and ban them all :D
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
I'm sure other people can do better.
hmmm.....
err
ok :
1) There are some basic RP items missing from all our apts - let us buy beds and toilets. Please!!!! Make then insanely expensive just for a laugh.
2) Make LoMs cost 500k each. Damn things shouldn't be in at all - at least make them serve a purpose.
3) Upgrades for vehicles - speed boost, armour boost, etc. make them 200k each and allow ALL vehicles to use them (ie not random slots).
4) Venture Warp Plus - cost 50k a pop but will drop you with 1-2 sectors of any OP on the world map regardless of whether you've tagged it's GR.
5) Pay dungeons - Like the zoo idea but the company running the zoo charges runners access. Like a combination of the Maze and NF - You select a boss mob, pay your nc and take your chances. No more MC5 camping cos anyone can hunt a Commander whenever they like if they want to pay. Use the Maze map rather than the retardo MC5 one so all classes get a chance. Make the price dependant on the mob - 20k for VK, 30 for BQ, 40 for FQ, 50 for App, 100 for MC5 for example if the drops are unchanged. If drops are guaranteed then increase cost appropriately.
6) Expensive high - level fight contest at Jeriko. 1 Million NC to fight a GM in the ring. Winners get a medal (writable book) but no NC back.
7) Slot adders - ultra expensive bought items to add more slots to guns. Cost based on no. of slots already there - 1 mil for adding 1 slot to an unslotted gun, 5 mil to add a 5th to a 4-slotter.
8) Put slotties on sale at crazy prices or make them BPable but need v. expensive parts.
Promethius
24-11-03, 20:35
Well I'd Like the cap raised to about 30 mil. Why do we even have a cap? Is it for exploitting and things of that nature? (if so i never heard of any exploits that cna be caused with the exxess of money) Also if its jsut a matter of having money on a char thers a few ways around it I.E. clan bank / stockx...
Psycho_Soldier
24-11-03, 20:40
Originally posted by Promethius
clan bank / stockx...
Ive heard of people losing millions in stockx due to bugs, ill never trust it. Also, not everyone likes to put money in clan bank.
Dynamic objects = major cash sinks.
If we ever get 'em back again, that is.
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Ive heard of people losing millions in stockx due to bugs, ill never trust it. Also, not everyone likes to put money in clan bank.
StockX works perfectly. All those people lost their money due to exploiters. It has since been fixed with the help of the person who came up with the exploit.
Tell that to Kurai and the many who lost millions due to a more recent stock-X crash.
o_O
Oh man... Please let me design the lvl 4 apps! :) I'll make sure people WANT to pay a few mil...
Heavyporker
25-11-03, 15:23
heh, maarten, you saw my ideas for higher level apts?
I betcha it'd be a treat to see them in-game.
Keyol45743241
25-11-03, 15:29
Some people are stupid enough to build troop carriers with their trademules 24/7
Some people have 2 billion credits - in stock values
Some people ruin the game using these "legal" exploits.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:29
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
This could be dodgy, but paying to increase your stat caps? How cool would it be to be able to pay 10 million as, say, a monk... and have your CON cap raise to 46? It'd have to be regulated, of course, as in the max you can boost any stat is to +5 the normal cap. For stat freaks like me, this would be heaven.
omg... i could lose +str imps as a spy...
The only reason the cap is in at the moment is because in beta when everyone had cash exploits it was implemented as a safeguard against people having 100s of billions of stolen credits.
No reason why the cap can't be raised. It won't raise the price of MC5 chips, it will only mean it is easier to make a trade for one with the current market prices (which are determined largely by the difficulty of obtaining an MC5 chip and the overwhelming demand for them due to how useful they are). Those who say otherwise study an introductory economics textbook please :)
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:39
your avatar scares me... O_o lol
random neocron fanboy screaming in plaza 1:
SELLING DIMENSION SPLITTER PARTS!!!!! 50 MILLION EACH!
bad idea, its going to make the multi character server economy get even worse.
Remember that there are players out there (like me) that have 4 aggressive characters and not trade skillers.
It's hard to make 1 million much less 18 million like some of your barters have.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 15:57
it wont change the economy. 4 char server - 20 mill a char. thats 80 mill per account, not including stockx and clan bank.
now you see people can still hold stupid amounts of money.
it will make no difference
:edit: omg... hard to make 1 million? i do it in an hour on a pistol spy ffs... a pistol spy (andi m mean pure pistol, no tradeskill)
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
Some people have 2 billion credits - in stock values
There is a limit on stocks too.
2000 per faction per character. 2000 in all factions is 30 something million total.
Sometimes you can get >2000 but it's a bug I believe.
After that you need more characters or a clan.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
No reason why the cap can't be raised. It won't raise the price of MC5 chips, it will only mean it is easier to make a trade for one with the current market prices (which are determined largely by the difficulty of obtaining an MC5 chip and the overwhelming demand for them due to how useful they are). Those who say otherwise study an introductory economics textbook please :)
Upping the cap is equivalent to issuing new currency. Look up hyperinflation in your "introductory economics textbook".
heh i got some thing like 20 mill between my 2 chars....i lost over 30 mill in stock X last time it crashed. so uping the cap isn't the way to g...try lowering it....to about 10 mill (u can go to 12 mill but it jsut snaps back) and lower cash from mobs in caves
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
omg... hard to make 1 million? i do it in an hour on a pistol spy ffs... a pistol spy (andi m mean pure pistol, no tradeskill)
and how do u do that?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
it wont change the economy. 4 char server - 20 mill a char. thats 80 mill per account, not including stockx and clan bank.
now you see people can still hold stupid amounts of money.
it will make no difference
:edit: omg... hard to make 1 million? i do it in an hour on a pistol spy ffs... a pistol spy (andi m mean pure pistol, no tradeskill)
hahahaha you gonna have to private message me on how you do this cuz i think thats a load of crap.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 16:30
Originally posted by retr0n
and how do u do that?
i kill things... alot... quickly... collect parts / rares... sell parts.... occasionally sell rares ( but thats on top of 1 mill / hour)
:edit:
oh ye of little faith :rolleyes:
i have full inq 1 on, a med fire belt, 50 nat resist,and a fully capped lib...
Originally posted by SynC_187
I don't think prices will go up. Prices depend on what people are willing to pay. Increasing or removing the money cap will not change what things are worth to people.
If someone is trying to sell an MC5 chip for 25mil and no-one is willing to pay that, they can sit on it or reduce the price.
There are people with millions in clan banks and stockx, just so they can hold over 20mil. Its a pain having to move things around.
Trust me if u can store more cash prices will go up in relation to it sad but true fact
Simple, keep the cash cap, stick in a bank so people don't have to use the rather unreliable stock-X
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
it wont change the economy. 4 char server - 20 mill a char. thats 80 mill per account, not including stockx and clan bank.
now you see people can still hold stupid amounts of money.
it will make no difference
:edit: omg... hard to make 1 million? i do it in an hour on a pistol spy ffs... a pistol spy (andi m mean pure pistol, no tradeskill)
if its so damn easy plz feel free to share how don't just say "omg... hard to make 1 million? i do it in an hour on a pistol spy ffs" to prove something tell u how eh?
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 16:46
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i kill things... alot... quickly... collect parts / rares... sell parts.... occasionally sell rares ( but thats on top of 1 mill / hour)
:edit:
oh ye of little faith :rolleyes:
i have full inq 1 on, a med fire belt, 50 nat resist,and a fully capped lib...
that not a good enough explanation for you? O_o
Yeah...
It isn't.
I spent hours killing firemobs with my melee tank who had capped fire resist and armor...
Didn't get anywhere close to a million creds per hour.
Unless you factor in profits from selling Tech Parts...
Which is wholly dependent on chance and how much the server likes you at the time.
o_O
I digress, the whole million creds in an hour schtick is BS, because there are still people who have a crappy droprate, no matter how much they kill.
Originally posted by Marx
Yeah...
It isn't.
I spent hours killing firemobs with my melee tank who had capped fire resist and armor...
Didn't get anywhere close to a million creds per hour.
Unless you factor in profits from selling Tech Parts...
Which is wholly dependent on chance and how much the server likes you at the time.
o_O
I digress, the whole million creds in an hour schtick is BS, because there are still people who have a crappy droprate, no matter how much they kill.
not even the uber tradeskill/barter team make a million an hour. I think thats a little bit of an exageration, so i agree with this post.
You cant base income on chance like marx said. What you are talking about is pretty much all on luck and your ability to have someone pay the stupidly high prices that are currently on the economy. If you dont think the economy is all screwed up, then you really have a friend in the US. Thats the same thing that bush is saying, yet the euro pwns the dollar by 20 cents. it used to be that the dollar was way stronger than the european economy (minus the brit, their pound has always been stronger)
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 17:01
its including parts / armour - but not parts
believe it or not - i dont care lol... i get cash, rares, imps and experiance...
The point is...
Not every hour will be the same because chance plays a large factor in loot.
Hence your 'I MAKE MILLION CREDITS IN HOUR' idea is flawed, and probably erroneous.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 17:04
chance plays into everything... maybe nothing spawns? maybe you get PK'd? maybe other harder groups kill your mobs? maybe someone hacks your WB?
luck is a factor of everything
Exactly, so not everyone will be able to make a million credits in an hour. Therefore it's not a staple as you make it out to be.
If you increase the money cap, then the price of MC5 chips will go up. The money cap is the only thing keeping the price of MC5 chips down atm. The simple fact is, they aren't worth the amount people are asking, but as long as some people will pay that much (and somehow obtain that kind of money) then the sellers will ask for whatever they can get away with. I say leave it as it is, the economy is already bloated enough.
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 17:08
*sigh* not everyone will make ANY credits an hour. thats like saying APU's suck cos with random damage there is a chance you will be unlucky and do shit damage everyshot... sure its POSSIBLE but not fuckin likely!
i have 2 friends and one has barter,other conster and i research
we build troop carriers from chems, we make 5 mils in 2.5 h.
so that's 15 mil in a full day, a weekend and u have ur mc5 ( although they arent sellable on saturn anymore)
I don't think the game needs cash sinks as that just means people will keep asking for the cap to be removed (and it is a bit crazy right now). Although to get around it they could just make DOY cash worth a heck of a lot more then NC cash so it can be used as higher currency.
However the game does need item sinks. Anything that can help clean out those tons of apartments full of useless crap will help improve the game.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
I agree with the "more cash sinks". How hard can it be? To think of some ways to force players burn money like that?
Uberlicious apartments. Viarosso Level 4? Cost a few million to buy... only they don't look like arse (like the current V3 apartment), and come with all the extras, such as 50 cabs, a swimming pool, luxurious bedroom... only the best for the wealthiest runners in Neocron...
I'm sure other people can do better.
So we get a swimming pool in the apt. Now we can invite people over and drown them! Or if you're bored, you can drown yourself. Wheeeeeeee!
Originally posted by jernau
Upping the cap is equivalent to issuing new currency. Look up hyperinflation in your "introductory economics textbook".
Wrong. Inflation would occur if for example, mobs started giving twice the reward money they did before. That would increase the supply of cash because it would be easier to obtain than before. Simply increasing the maximum amount you're allowed to have on your player would not cause inflation, it would just make it easier to make trades in excess of 18 million credits because you wouldn't have to mess around with multiple chars and StockX, etc. It still requires just as much work to obtain that cash.
Promethius
26-11-03, 02:15
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Wrong. Inflation would occur if for example, mobs started giving twice the reward money they did before. That would increase the supply of cash because it would be easier to obtain than before. Simply increasing the maximum amount you're allowed to have on your player would not cause inflation, it would just make it easier to make trades in excess of 18 million credits because you wouldn't have to mess around with multiple chars and StockX, etc. It still requires just as much work to obtain that cash.
pwned :lol:
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Wrong. Inflation would occur if for example, mobs started giving twice the reward money they did before. That would increase the supply of cash because it would be easier to obtain than before. Simply increasing the maximum amount you're allowed to have on your player would not cause inflation, it would just make it easier to make trades in excess of 18 million credits because you wouldn't have to mess around with multiple chars and StockX, etc. It still requires just as much work to obtain that cash.
Wrong.
MMORPGs are driven by challenges.
If the percieved maximum is 18 million people will aim for 18 million, if it's 50 million they will aim for 50 million. The limit to wealth is time spent, not rate of earning.
As it is atm there are 3 places to put money :
1) personal account - visible to all and only you can access it
2) clan account - visible to all but others have access (insecure)
3) stockx - not visible and in many people's eyes not reliable
In other words people keep cash in their personal accounts because it's secure and also they can compare their wealth to that of other players easily. Make it possible to hold more in those accounts and people will do so.
Copied in from another thread :
Originally posted by Velvet
As mentioned before by Dave "Fargo" Kosak, infamous inventer of the "Autocamp 2000":
...And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
* If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
* If there is a number, make it higher
* If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it...
Originally posted by jernau
Wrong.
MMORPGs are driven by challenges.
If the percieved maximum is 18 million people will aim for 18 million, if it's 50 million they will aim for 50 million. The limit to wealth is time spent, not rate of earning.
As it is atm there are 3 places to put money :
1) personal account - visible to all and only you can access it
2) clan account - visible to all but others have access (insecure)
3) stockx - not visible and in many people's eyes not reliable
In other words people keep cash in their personal accounts because it's secure and also they can compare their wealth to that of other players easily. Make it possible to hold more in those accounts and people will do so.
Does rate of earning not influence time spent? If your money is coming in at double the rate you spend half the time to earn the same amount, correct?
Anyway, let's say the cap was raised to 100 million nc. 100 million nc is still harder to obtain than 18 million nc. By your logic, people would be paying 100 million nc for an MC5 chip. Since money still takes the same time and effort to make, I don't see how the same item would be worth 5-6 times what it was before, as the time and effort required to obtain that item remains the same.
Or approach it from another angle. Let's lower the cap to 1 million NC. Suddenly money becomes an inconvenient medium for exchange because everyone keeps reaching the cap. Nobody is allowed to have enough money to afford to trade with someone else for the time and effort it takes to obtain any of the rare items. You won't see MC5 chips selling for 1 million. You won't see MC5 chips selling at all.
Look at Diablo 2. Money is essentially valueless in that game largely because of the money caps which are very easy to reach. Nobody uses money in trades. But this is not the case in Neocron. People sell rares for cash all the time. This is because they are allowed to have enough money to afford the rares, they simply have to spend time making the money.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Does rate of earning not influence time spent? If your money is coming in at double the rate you spend half the time to earn the same amount, correct?
Anyway, let's say the cap was raised to 100 million nc. 100 million nc is still harder to obtain than 18 million nc. By your logic, people would be paying 100 million nc for an MC5 chip. Since money still takes the same time and effort to make, I don't see how the same item would be worth 5-6 times what it was before, as the time and effort required to obtain that item remains the same.
Or approach it from another angle. Let's lower the cap to 1 million NC. Suddenly money becomes an inconvenient medium for exchange because everyone keeps reaching the cap. Nobody is allowed to have enough money to afford to trade with someone else for the time and effort it takes to obtain any of the rare items. You won't see MC5 chips selling for 1 million. You won't see MC5 chips selling at all.
Look at Diablo 2. Money is essentially valueless in that game largely because of the money caps which are very easy to reach. Nobody uses money in trades. But this is not the case in Neocron. People sell rares for cash all the time. This is because they are allowed to have enough money to afford the rares, they simply have to spend time making the money.
MC5 chips are worth whatever someone will pay for them. Currently asking more than 20 million is impractical, so people don't do it. The only thing stopping people from having more money is the money cap, and as long as MC5 chips are as valuable as they are now, people will set their prices at the money cap. This in turn will lead to everyone being forced to have barter/research/constructor characters in order to make APCs just to earn enough cash to compete with the ones who already make their money from building APCs.
make an exchange.
When DoY comes out make DoY credits and NC credits.
Then implement a exchange rate.
For instance, 1 NC = 2 DC (doy credits) Make it so that it fluxuates on a daily basis like the stock-x
So, if you want to buy items at a DoY controlled OP, wasteland trader, ASG or DoY allied base, it will cost you more if you use NC over DC. Vice versa
There are so many super millionares out there that I doubt one or 2 money sinks will work.
I'm almost tempted to reccomend that the barter skill be nerfed and do a money wipe to bring everyone down who is a uber millionaire down to a million or so.
The saturn economy is way out of control.
It's to the point that money is worthless. You can't buy anything thats popular. It always involves some sort of barter trade.
This is a issue that needs to be addressed.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Does rate of earning not influence time spent? If your money is coming in at double the rate you spend half the time to earn the same amount, correct?
There is nothing magical about the current earning rates. They've been higher and lower in the past. The ONLY thing that defines how much money people have is how much they can have. If you made it so people could only earn 500k/day then some people would make 500k/day regardless of how hard it was.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Anyway, let's say the cap was raised to 100 million nc. 100 million nc is still harder to obtain than 18 million nc. By your logic, people would be paying 100 million nc for an MC5 chip. Since money still takes the same time and effort to make, I don't see how the same item would be worth 5-6 times what it was before, as the time and effort required to obtain that item remains the same.
There are plenty of games out there with longer and steeper levelling and earning curves than neocron. Do you really believe people never cap in those games. Just because it takes 10 hours to do something now doesnt' mean people will only do half as much if it is changed to take 20 hours. See the quote above : people always hit caps - FACT. Once a few of us are seen at the new cap then people will demand more for goods because there is more money in the system - Inflation - see above.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Or approach it from another angle. Let's lower the cap to 1 million NC. Suddenly money becomes an inconvenient medium for exchange because everyone keeps reaching the cap. Nobody is allowed to have enough money to afford to trade with someone else for the time and effort it takes to obtain any of the rare items. You won't see MC5 chips selling for 1 million. You won't see MC5 chips selling at all.
That would just mean the economy would break because the currency becomes untenable. Whether or not a barter system is better than a currency system is a different argument entirely. Some RPGs have gone this way with mixed success. Personally I don't think it's very fitting in the Neocron setting and I would be against that.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Look at Diablo 2. Money is essentially valueless in that game largely because of the money caps which are very easy to reach. Nobody uses money in trades. But this is not the case in Neocron. People sell rares for cash all the time. This is because they are allowed to have enough money to afford the rares, they simply have to spend time making the money.
Money, like everything else in Diablow is valueless because the game is saturated with exploits and 99% of the people that play maxed all their stats including money by cheating. Money caps are a sensible way of controlling the damage such exploits do to a game and that's why KK added one.
I think both the exchange and bank ideas that have been proposed have merit though implementation might prove "interesting".
Originally posted by Scikar
MC5 chips are worth whatever someone will pay for them. Currently asking more than 20 million is impractical, so people don't do it. The only thing stopping people from having more money is the money cap, and as long as MC5 chips are as valuable as they are now, people will set their prices at the money cap. This in turn will lead to everyone being forced to have barter/research/constructor characters in order to make APCs just to earn enough cash to compete with the ones who already make their money from building APCs.
The cap does not stop people having more money, as has been said you can have extra wealth tied up in clan account, other characters, stockx, assets (eg your items). It just inconveniences people because it means they can't carry that cash on their person, so trades for items worth more than the cap are more difficult to do and likely won't occur as much because of this. Why are MC5 chips selling for more than the cap? Because people value them that much - they are useful and rare. Notice that the most valuable items previous to MC5 chips sold for nowhere near the cap.
Originally posted by jernau
There is nothing magical about the current earning rates. They've been higher and lower in the past. The ONLY thing that defines how much money people have is how much they can have. If you made it so people could only earn 500k/day then some people would make 500k/day regardless of how hard it was.
There are plenty of games out there with longer and steeper levelling and earning curves than neocron. Do you really believe people never cap in those games. Just because it takes 10 hours to do something now doesnt' mean people will only do half as much if it is changed to take 20 hours. See the quote above : people always hit caps - FACT. Once a few of us are seen at the new cap then people will demand more for goods because there is more money in the system - Inflation - see above.
By your logic, everyone would have 18 million nc now (because "people always hit caps - FACT"). But look, in reality we have rich runners and poor runners. Most people are somewhere in between. Sorry, but not everyone has capped out cash.
And even if you were right, and increasing the cap to 100 million nc meant MC5 chips sold for 100 million nc, how many people then would spend time collecting MC5 chips just to sell them and make 100 million nc? It would obviously be the best way to make 100 million nc, because it is easier to obtain an MC5 chip and sell it for 100 million nc than to make 100 million nc by earning it normally.
Nope, MC5 chips simply wouldn't sell for 100 million nc. If someone was offering them at that price nobody would buy it. Other people could offer them for cheaper, because they could still turn a profit by selling it for 20 million nc. The effort and ability required to earn 20 million nc is comparable to the effort and ability required to obtain an MC5 chip. THAT is what determines the market price, not a money ceiling.
Originally posted by jernau
Money, like everything else in Diablow is valueless because the game is saturated with exploits and 99% of the people that play maxed all their stats including money by cheating. Money caps are a sensible way of controlling the damage such exploits do to a game and that's why KK added one.
Incorrect. Sure, there are exploits in that game, but it's ridiculously easy to reach the cap without any exploits. So nobody cares about money, it's practically free and unlimited, a useless part of that game.
I never said everyone would hit all the caps. I said some would and that's all it takes. If you read your economics text books you'd realise that wealth is never evenly distributed and that it's never the "poor" people who set the prices.
It would probably only take 10-20 people to make the leap from 20mil to 100mil and there would be double the cash in circulation. I can't think of a more ideal model for demonstrating the causes of inflation.
As I explained before the other ways of storing money are not comparable as they a) are less relaible and b) are not seen as a measure of personal achievement.
MC5s are pushing people's cash limits becuase they are an order of magnitude more rare than any other item. Were you here when L3s weren't dropping? I made a fortune on the ones I had stockpiled at the time and I could have made a LOT more (I was offered 18mil for a bez 3).
Originally posted by TheEnemy
And even if you were right, and increasing the cap to 100 million nc meant MC5 chips sold for 100 million nc, how many people then would spend time collecting MC5 chips just to sell them and make 100 million nc? It would obviously be the best way to make 100 million nc, because it is easier to obtain an MC5 chip and sell it for 100 million nc than to make 100 million nc by earning it normally.
Please explain how 18mil is magically different from 100mil in this regard?
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Nope, MC5 chips simply wouldn't sell for 100 million nc. If someone was offering them at that price nobody would buy it.
Want a bet?
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Other people could offer them for cheaper, because they could still turn a profit by selling it for 20 million nc.
No they wouldn't, that's just naive idealism. If you had two bidders, one with 20mil and one with 100mil who would you sell to?
Originally posted by TheEnemy
The effort and ability required to earn 20 million nc is comparable to the effort and ability required to obtain an MC5 chip.
On what basis?
Originally posted by TheEnemy
THAT is what determines the market price, not a money ceiling.
Please demonstrate any luxury market (after all that's what MC5s are) anywhere, real or virtual where this is the case.
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 16:43
Originally posted by jernau
No they wouldn't, that's just naive idealism. If you had two bidders, one with 20mil and one with 100mil who would you sell to?
i think he means others will sell cheaper that 100 mill... then who will pay out 100mill for one?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i think he means others will sell cheaper that 100 mill... then who will pay out 100mill for one?
What others? People don't advertise the sale of MC5 chips. They either auction them or wait for offers. Which do you see more, "Offering 15 mil for SA" or "WTS: Synaptic Accelerator"?
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 16:53
*sigh* which do i see more? "offering 1 mill for marine" or "WTS marine?"
itws like that with any rare - demand is higher than supply so more peeps want than sell.
however i do of course agree that me selling one for 20 mill could be upped if i get 2 peeps outbidding.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i think he means others will sell cheaper that 100 mill... then who will pay out 100mill for one?
Why would they sell for less than they can get?
The point is that if the cap is 100mil then some people will have 100mil. Those people won't have anything else to buy as Neocron has no real cash-sinks so what do you think will happen?
The problem is not the cap - the problem is that there are no high end cash-sinks to draw money out of the economy therefore the total-cash-in-game is always escalating.
The only high-value transactions are player to player so the cash never leaves the system. Meanwhile new cash and new high-end items are always pouring in.
The NC economy needs a bleeder valve. Something we can buy from NPCs that will suck the cash out of high-end players without distorting any other aspect of the game. RP items are the obvious choice as they don't have knock-on effects to balancing that rare-vendors and some other proposals would have.
Point is, you don't sell them. You wait for someone to want one badly enough that he offers a ridiculous amount for one. With methods like APCs and cave runs for generating cash around, there will always be a few people whp spend their entire day in game earning cash in this way, who will then offer the whole lot for an MC5 chip. Increasing the money cap only increases the gap between casual gamers, and those willing to spend 48 hours solid earning money. The price of MC5 chips will always reflect the amount of money the richest players have.
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 17:05
while i agree to some extent (i agree there do need to be cash sinks for high level players) i think that both sides of this aruement are based alot on speculation. uranus / saturn prices are not 4 times that of pluto... and yet a '48 hour' gamer as you said could amass 4 times the money just storing it on his own chars... this is not including the fact that anyone could make a clan (1 person clan) and have unlimited money (i dunno what cap is in clan bank if there is one).
so as you can see rich players can easily have more than 20 million... just making them not have to own a clan doesnt change that. if i was someone who wanted to have millions and millions - someone who played for 48 hour stints just to get rich - couldnt i spare a few hours to do an epic and make a clan to use the bank?
there is nothing stopping the richest players havving 100 million on their own - but i have yet to see an MC5 chip go for 100 million
I'm sure several people already have >100 million but as long as their wealth is at least partly hidden why would they admit that for no gain?
The way it tends to work is :
You have 1-20 mil : put it all in personal cash, try to get up the ladder.
You have 20-50 mil - get to top of ladder then ferret it into stockx and pray it doesn't vanish
You have 50mil or more - get another char or a clan. Bearing in mind many of the richest players are already in clans and spreading it out between chars is a pain in the ass most people probably get bored at this point and either start spending it to make room for more cash or stop earning.
In other words the thing that stops further earning now is lack of purpose. If you give people a purpose - higher cap - they will start earning again.
TheEnemy, I will bet you 30mil NC that the prices of MC5s go up... oh wait, the cap is only 18mil, so I will only bet you 18mil right now.
Once the cap goes up, I will raise my bet to whatever the new cap level is.
;)
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 17:21
Originally posted by jernau
I'm sure several people already have >100 million but as long as their wealth is at least partly hidden why would they admit that for no gain?
The way it tends to work is :
You have 1-20 mil : put it all in personal cash, try to get up the ladder.
You have 20-50 mil - get to top of ladder then ferret it into stockx and pray it doesn't vanish
You have 50mil or more - get another char or a clan. Bearing in mind many of the richest players are already in clans and spreading it out between chars is a pain in the ass most people probably get bored at this point and either start spending it to make room for more cash or stop earning.
In other words the thing that stops further earning now is lack of purpose. If you give people a purpose - higher cap - they will start earning again.
make alt - make clan - give money. there, locked up safer than StockX
oh and hidden? anyone can see what money a clan has iirc through citycom (i am not at an NC PC at the mo though so i cant check)
besides people dont tend to have 100's of millions without people knowing. they offer loads whenever they want something. i doubt they do all this in the hope that an MC5 will sell - not spending anything til then
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
make alt - make clan - give money. there, locked up safer than StockX
oh and hidden? anyone can see what money a clan has iirc through citycom (i am not at an NC PC at the mo though so i cant check)
besides people dont tend to have 100's of millions without people knowing. they offer loads whenever they want something. i doubt they do all this in the hope that an MC5 will sell - not spending anything til then
Transfering between alts without a clan = >1 account = more RL cost. Most people are richer in-game than out. :p
StockX is hidden and clan money can't be tied to a single person unless it's a one-man-clan. Most of the richest players I know are in big clans.
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 17:35
given that there are multi char servers (wether you think they are 'noob servers' or not they are there) and that you can sell money on ebay etc (kk allows it - but no advertising on here) it is not a problem
option 1 - play on a multi char server
option 2 - sell enough every month to fund your 2nd neocron subscription
there is no way you can claim this is a hard feat to do. maybe even sell twice what you need so you get extra money / money if you dont sell one month.
I play on Saturn ;)
I was talking about multi-char servers. Hence the point that it's easier if both chars are in a clan.
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 17:40
well invite both into clan? i have done it in the past on uranus... just find someone you trust, invite them to clan, promote to invite rank, log alt, get invited, kick friend (lol) and there ya go!
or just make clan, invite mate, transfer leadership to him, quit, log alt, get invite, get leader, kick him. 1 man clan!
i am sure on saturn you have at least 1 friend :p
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
well invite both into clan? i have done it in the past on uranus... just find someone you trust, invite them to clan, promote to invite rank, log alt, get invited, kick friend (lol) and there ya go!
or just make clan, invite mate, transfer leadership to him, quit, log alt, get invite, get leader, kick him. 1 man clan!
Yeah, yeah. I know all that. My point is that once that's done you are a one-player-clan.
You don't want to put all your cash in there and then recruit people that might rob you and you can't join another clan without quiting your own.
Like I said - most of the richest people I know are in big clans so none of this is possible for them.
/edit - last line ignored :p
Jesterthegreat
26-11-03, 17:47
i gtg after this reply.
options:
recruit people you trust
dont let people go above rank 11 (i think its rank 10 for money)
make it with an alt surely one of your chars can leave the clan you are in?
ok ill reply later... bye all
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i gtg after this reply.
options:
recruit people you trust
dont let people go above rank 11 (i think its rank 10 for money)
make it with an alt surely one of your chars can leave the clan you are in?
ok ill reply later... bye all
All possible but they also all distance you from your wealth "score" which means you lose interest.
The way it is now is it's perfectly possible to have as much as you like but neither too easy nor too rewarding. This not only deters too many people from going too far it also means people don't assume that all other players have billions of nc stuffed in their mattresses.
Jernau, what is money? You don't seem to know what it is. It's not free to obtain, if it was then nobody would value it. Who cares if some people have 100 million? If they have earnt it, it is their money. When you buy an item from someone, what determines how much money they are going to ask for it? It is usually how much the market values the item. Remember that the seller wants to make as much money as possible and the buyer wants to spend as little money as possible. There is nothing stopping the seller asking for more... sure he can try and offer an MC5 chip for 100 million, but at that price nobody is going to buy it when they know they could get one much cheaper from somebody else. How many hours would it take you to get 100 million? How many hours would it take you to get an MC5 chip? I doubt you would see someone spending that amount of time earning 100 million just to buy one chip when they could likely get one themselves in much shorter time with much less effort. Or they could pay someone else to get it for them, which is basically what you are doing when you buy an MC5 chip from someone - you are compensating them for the difficulty of obtaining that item by giving them money, and they are compensating you for the difficulty of obtaining that money by giving you the chip. Both sides are better off in the deal because you want the chip more than the money and they want the money more than the chip.
Edit: Also, you said yourself people could get bored around the 50 million nc mark. So then wouldn't they get bored trying to earn 100 million nc to buy an MC5 chip if that was the price?
What i think needs to happen
A neocron bank needs to be introduced, this will be opend by a player for a price 200K or around that, this should act as a clan account but for a player and store up to 100million nc, money in this is safe and does not change and can be taken out a city com
if this is implace, then money on a player could be droped, eg if your money is on you and you die you loose a % of it compared to your rank eg 40% if your rank 40 , or 60 + 60% of your money, eg if you have 10million and your rank 60 + you loose 6 million, this would encourage pvp less so for ganking since lower %, also would mean people store money in a bank or clan account.
the bigest problem is that you cant hold more than 18million, this should be raised to 25 around since most items arnt worth more than that, in this item based economy.
Neocron needs a place to store money, clan accounts are bad for low rank clanners and stock x , well is just to buggy to place large amount of money in.
also cash cubes could also be put back and could be collected form the bank (remember there is a Neocron bank in via sec 1 thats never used)
just an idea :)
pood... all that happens with your idea is that people have to put money in the bank constantly or it will inevitably be lost. What an inconvenience! Why not just be able to hold it on your player?
Besides, death already means you have to spend a few k getting patched up again, with backpack, pokes, repairs, replacing lost items, etc.
Neocron cash seems to be all electronic funds anyway. When you carry 1 million nc I don't think you're carrying notes, it's just saying you have 1 million nc in your account, which you can access from anywhere.
Enemy, I clearly misunderstood your first post as implying you knew something about economics. I'll try to explain it again in even simpler terms :
Current state :
1) Money is pouring into the NC economy at a very fast rate because people are earning it so easily
2) Money is hardly leaving the economy at all because there are no high-price items from NPCs. All high level trades are player-player so the credits stay in circulation
3) The active population is constant or decreasing.
This is guaranteed to cause high inflation and indeed it has.
There are 3 possible ways to counter that inflation :
1) Stop the in-flow of money
2) Take money out the economy
3) Increase the population
Raising the cap does not stop in-flow, in fact it encourages a HUGE increase in earning as people adjust to the new cap.
It also does nothing to take money out of the economy so it's no help there.
Put point 3 to one side for now as that's a problem all of it's own.
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Also, you said yourself people could get bored around the 50 million nc mark. So then wouldn't they get bored trying to earn 100 million nc to buy an MC5 chip if that was the price?
I also explained why it happened at 50 million but you clearly missed/ignored that part.:rolleyes:
StockX is 100% solid now I think, don't be paranoid to put your money in it.
Show me one person who would sell an MC5 chip for 50 million when he could get 100 million for it.
Jesterthegreat
27-11-03, 13:03
but thats the point... if everyone else is selling for a higher price they WILL be undercut!
maybe not by much as MC5 chips are still rare - but its better to get a quick sale at 20 mill less - then go hunt more then spend ages tryin to sell at 100 mill when someone else sells at 80 mill :p
No, the point is, if you raise the money cap, then the price of MC5 chips WILL go up. There simply aren't anywhere near enough MC5 chips in circulation for anyone to undercut the prices. The result is the people with MC5 chips get richer and increase their prices on everything (artifact CS becomes 15 mil to them instead of 5), while the people without MC5 chips are forced to do even more work just to get onto the bottom rung of the ladder.
mc5 chips are worth alot of money, and money is easy to get, i dont see why not having an increased cap ant a problem,
the best thing we could do for neocron is to remove belts and safe slot
or have npcs that sell tech parts or have npcs like beta that sell slot enhancers for say 2 million + for 3/4 slots.
problem with neocron is if your in a rich and good clan, money can only go up, the only item worth more than a mc5 chip is a apu kami chip, but as with all rares mc5 chips will flood the market, i remeber viper king being sold for 500K + now you might as well chuck one in plaza 1
i think that money drop and having a personal bank account is a good idea
KRIMINAL99
27-11-03, 18:00
No thanks... Don't like the idea of paying 5 million for a pain easer because some wierdo spends 24 7 making troop carriers with his alts.
the problem is that the limited good pvp weapons means that if its a good pain easer its going for a high price,
weapons and implants are worth more than money thats why people need alot of money if they cannot aquire the weapons or implants them selfs
Theory aside, lets go by history.
In beta (before the stockx bug came along and people were able to make money for nothing, thus causing massive inflation) there was NO money cap. The money cap was only introduced to make it so if an exploit came up like the stockx one that occurred in beta, the amount of damage that could be done would be limited. In those days before the cap, did you see any stuff selling at such ridiculously high prices?
Originally posted by TheEnemy
Theory aside, lets go by history.
In beta (before the stockx bug came along and people were able to make money for nothing, thus causing massive inflation) there was NO money cap. The money cap was only introduced to make it so if an exploit came up like the stockx one that occurred in beta, the amount of damage that could be done would be limited. In those days before the cap, did you see any stuff selling at such ridiculously high prices?
What, like people tipping 2 million cr for a poke?
rubaduckythug
28-11-03, 01:25
Bri ng back cash cubes
Why even raise the cap? jsut bring back cash cubes, that would be so much ez'r especially for X'fers :)
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
people have that much anyway... i know a 2 man clan with about 100 mill in it O_o the thing is, both chars is same person, and i reported that person to exploits because i know he did and i know how he did it. and i had no proof so he's living rich and now hes selling his acc on ebay..
if thats the same person im talkin about *cant say name due to rules*
Originally posted by Scikar
What, like people tipping 2 million cr for a poke?
Are you talking about before the money exploits or after them? Because if people were tipping 2 million for a poke without exploits involved I'd seriously like to know how that could be possible.
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