View Full Version : Literally unacceptable
I am concerned about the life of this game. The bugs are just.... well.... unacceptable.
Just from todays experiance...
1) Logged into Neocron, went to the citycom to check my mails, instantly crashed when opening citycom. What a warm greeting to the game!
2) Over the last 12 hours, I sync bugged into someones apartment 3 times. Others have been getting this more and more lately as well...sometimes even being sync bugged into enemy territory on the other side of the map!
3) Went to get some sympathy at the CA HQ. I don't think there is a single place in a single MMORPG that can be more bugged then the CA HQ. Honestly, you go there to get sympathy, and you see it ALL. Guards stuck in the wall. Secretaries spawning in the wall. Secretaries spawning on top of each other. Secretaries floating through the roof when they get hit. Secretaries spawning ontop of the door switches. Invisable damage being taken off randomly. Secretaries getting drilled with 4 clips of a cs yet mystically still full HP. Guards getting stuck and walking around inside the lifts. I can go on...in all honesty I can go on and find more bugs, but im not looking to write an essay. This is just a sad, sad state of NPC AI. It must be fixed.
4) Now it is 12:20 PM EST. As usual, I am kicked off the server because I forgot to look at my watch and...silly me! I zoned and now for the next 5 minutes I wont be able to get back into the game. Luckily this time I was not in enemy territory, but if I was I may as well be logging my constructor now to build myself a new slotted spell that I surely would have lost.
This game cannot, and WILL not get highly populated with bugs like this plaguing a player on a daily basis. This is only a very, VERY small amount of the overall bugs in the game...and yet its astounding. 98% of every MMORPG player will NOT accept this amount of bugs, all of us playing this game make up the 2% that will.
Please KK...these things MUST be fixed...before more weapons, before monk nerfs, before new vehicles, before anything of that sort...this cannot continue the way it is or this game will go nowhere.
Spectra260
24-11-03, 08:23
i r voted 5 stars, although, this wont make a difference...
KK will rely too much on 'crack effect this game causes because eventually it will wear off. Act now and save it. :mad:
Ya g0rt since u have only been round for a month i gus you havent seen the number of posts like yours. There r hundreds. An ya those bugs are annoyin. But i dont think kk will do more despite your post. :(
Sorry g0rt, you're preaching to the choir. I've been making posts like this for many many many months. (And I'm not the only one. Check out some posts by Spy vs. Spy for instance).
All the bugs you mentioned have been there since Beta testing of the game started long before retail launch over a year ago now. Players have been reporting all of these for well over a year and yet, there isn't even a word from KK on this issue. So you might as well just give up, I have. I'm still addicted to the game as I found out when I tried to leave, but soon (very soon I'm sure), something will come up to catch my interest and then it's goodbye this game.
How about posting your machine setup?
I play and I rarely if ever crash now.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 09:33
O_o thay fixed bug one a long time ago when did it come back?
Originally posted by robinitnow
O_o thay fixed bug one a long time ago when did it come back?
I don't think they ever really fixed it. I never had THAT particular bug. But I did have the one where every time I tried to put money into clan account or take money out of the clan account I would crash. So I had to have someone else do those transactions for me often as I would crash about 10 times before successfully performing the deposit/withdrawal operation. All the bugs are valid, have been around since beta and have never really been fixed or even addressed or mentioned by KK... Does something smell fishy to you? (Especially in light of all the recent optimistic statements made by MJS which I would really like to believe, but almost certain are lies after hearing the "talk" but never seeing the "walk").
Originally posted by Archeus
How about posting your machine setup?
I play and I rarely if ever crash now.
I don't crash much either...read more carefully theres WAY more then that...and no its not my machine setup, I hate when people say that.
MMORPGS that never have the slightest problem on my computer:
- UO
- EQ
- AC
- AC2
- DAOC
- SHADOWBANE
yes ive tried/played all of them, no bugs, no crashing, nothing...
its not my machine, it happens to everyone....
When I use the subway 90% of the trip is in the dark, It must be Ati related as when I was in Beta useing Nvidia card I could see fine the entire trip?
As for some of your other issues I can understand that when the server is full (btw what is considered full?) it would lag and sync people off the server but I play on Pluto and had to log out about 3-4 times due to sync lag, with only 160 people on.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 09:51
I came into the game a week after beta played 3 months then left mainly due to the bugs. By the time I had finished they had put in the fix to this bug and it worked I did not sync into anyone else’s apartment again.
I then came back for another 3 months but left this time because of outrageous balancing issues when it comes to rifle pe's and a particular bug. To kill a warbot it took me half of a zone (you get this huge trail of oil) and I had been using the same rifle for about 20 levels! by this point I could still not get a rifle that was able to do more damage or more cost effective s that rifle.
the bug that killed me was the one that just will not allow you to log in first time. I had to try two or three times every F*****g :mad: time to get online.
Originally posted by g0rt
I don't crash much either...read more carefully theres WAY more then that...and no its not my machine setup, I hate when people say that.
You may hate it but if your not going to tell us we can't really see if that is a problem now can we.
If you have run check files, then I can only assume that the game is the same as mine. I don't have any of those problems. So what GFX card? What memory? How much free disk space? What background programs running? What version of drivers you running?
MMORPGS that never have the slightest problem on my computer:
- UO
UO was a pile of buggy crap for well over a year or more when it was released.
it happens to everyone.... [/B]
If it was happening to everyone every 2nd post here would be people screaming about crashes. Or don't you remember a months after retail release?
robinitnow
24-11-03, 09:52
Sheba while in the subway go into third person mode. I used to have the 7500 and know all about that one.
I never really crash. And i play Neocron a lot. Are you sure its not your setup thats making it crash? Because mine never does.
And i can say i have never ever crashed when clicking on a city com.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 12:01
you may just have a bad install.
I have a bad install because i don't crash, hehe
I synch about 50% of the time I log in - Last night I appeared in someone elses body and was in the underground of Hawkins - When I relogged I was in my own body but still in Hawkins underground. :rolleyes:
we all crash about 2-3 times every game session... its nothing big... since you can relog soo fast in neocron...
now if swg would do that and i had to wait for the freaking game to load 2-3 times i would leave soo fast... (well i did leave :P)
Wait you mean...
I thought the FRE message I got gave me XP :(
Shit, so those are.... bugs? I've gotten so used to them... I thought they were 'features' :(
I lose.
Dribble Joy
24-11-03, 14:00
I rarely crash, I have never ever crashed while going into citycom, that seems really bizarre.
The only problems I seem to have is lag.
And after the reboot, things are the same/worse I'm thinking is is either not KKs fault, or the servers need a complete reworking.
Thundercade
24-11-03, 14:07
the PP HQ is highly bugged too, guards facing the walls, Copbots blocking dorways etc etc :)
Also i've had the apartment warp magical mystery tour a few times, yesterday I warped into a guys appt and he was actually quite pleased to get a visitor :D
I also crash occasionaly but it only takes a minute to log back in, so it doesnt really bother me TBH
Originally posted by robinitnow
Sheba while in the subway go into third person mode. I used to have the 7500 and know all about that one.
Have the 9600 but I have a feeling the game prefers Nvidia?
Btw how do you change to third person view?
Sync bugs are like a free venture warp... but venture warp is free so I'm not to sure whats going on there.
Originally posted by El_MUERkO
Sync bugs are like a free venture warp... but venture warp is free so I'm not to sure whats going on there. Venture warp costs me 2000 each time i use it.
Have you got free tickets or something?
Actually, come to think of it, I was really amused today when I got an FRE while typing in the password to my account... I didn't even know I could crash there. I r teh speshul.
And I love some of the more random crashes like "I'm sitting back in my chair, not touching the keyboard or mouse, reading TRADE-NC... *beep* FRE... what the..." If I'm zoning or running around or interacting with something, yeah, I can see a line of code goes sour, bam crash, but dude... I was just sitting here o_O
^i bets some bloke typed in a secret FRE code into the Trade channel and Crashed everyone :D
You guys all completely miss the point, especially Archeus.
I crashed once, its not the big deal...quit telling me about machine setups an the other piles of crap you're all spewing out.
Read the post before you reply to it. Theres WAY more bugs then crashing. Shall I list them? I don't want to but let think of a few..
- all items dropping out of the trade window and screwing over your inventory WAY, WAY too often
- items appearing incorrectly until you relog after you purchase back your inventory or even sometimes after getting a ressurection
- right click not working right away when you first log into the game
- losing sl/money when you hit the GR but not actually going anywhere.
Theres just a few. Cut the crap about crashing, thats not what this post is about. Its about the other bugs. Bugs like NPC placements in the CA HQ which is just 100% horrendus. (sp?)
bleh get used to it or leave thats just how its is and im sure it wont change :( :)
1 has to be your set up.
2 happens but you normally get thrown back to your correct place if you don't do anything. I am not sure how you managed to do it 3 times in a row but you could try filing an SPR report so they can track it.
3 sounds like it may be related to 2. While some of it is bad placement, it can also happen when you zone and the information isn't gotten correctly. I've played with the brother and we have had at times two completely different screens where everything was.
4 Not sure what time has to do with it, but all your bugs sound related.
You want a solution? or you just came to whine? If the former then post the details or email KK.
Just curious whats your average ping to the server and what server?
MjukisDjur
24-11-03, 15:34
I crash 1-2 times per 5 hours. Pretty ok imop.
Ati user...
Alt + e give you third man view
I honestly don't think setup has anything to do with the retarded placements of certain NPC, the infamous "I see a number but I still did no damage" bug, the random apartment sync bugs, and NPC "no text" bugs just to name a few.
FREs and sync errors do seem to be more setup dependant. I rarely get FREs anymore, but I get FREs like crazy whenever I join a team. I also get sync errors all the time in the outworld (its been my observation, the longer it takes to load the next zone, the more likely it is that you'll get a sync error, though I'm sure people with fast computers still get them).
I hate when all the stuff in your inventory moves around so instead of putting on your PA you put on your ammo or your torch, drives me nuts.
MjukisDjur
24-11-03, 15:47
Try not to die so often and retrieve your backpack then :lol:
Originally posted by Lanigav
I honestly don't think setup has anything to do with the retarded placements of certain NPC, the infamous "I see a number but I still did no damage" bug, the random apartment sync bugs, and NPC "no text" bugs just to name a few.
Get two machines with each thier own account. side by side and play. The first two you list there happen.
For example warbie hunting I'd see my brother shooting me when in fact on his screen I am no where near in sight of his shots, or I would see damage on the warbie when in fact he has missed or visa versa.
Somewhat to do with client prediction. Zone crashes in cars was related to the same thing. The car would be in a different position to both passengers so sometimes the passenger can zone to one point and other to a different zone or not zone at all.
A lot of the bugs have to do with setup or internet latency/client prediction.
Despite the private love letters to me. If you have two machines with the exact same NC software on it then any crashes have to be related to either machine set up or your connection. So don't be so quick to blame KK that it is there fault. Next time you have a problem, send the logs to KK and file it as an SPR so they can track what is causing it.
Originally posted by Archeus
Get two machines with each thier own account. side by side and play. The first two you list there happen.
For example warbie hunting I'd see my brother shooting me when in fact on his screen I am no where near in sight of his shots, or I would see damage on the warbie when in fact he has missed or visa versa.
Somewhat to do with client prediction. Zone crashes in cars was related to the same thing. The car would be in a different position to both passengers so sometimes the passenger can zone to one point and other to a different zone or not zone at all.
A lot of the bugs have to do with setup or internet latency/client prediction.
Despite the private love letters to me. If you have two machines with the exact same NC software on it then any crashes have to be related to either machine set up or your connection. So don't be so quick to blame KK that it is there fault. Next time you have a problem, send the logs to KK and file it as an SPR so they can track what is causing it.
Pathetic.
If KK's game crashes on ANY computer, its KK's fault..especially when all other MMORPGs rarely if ever crash. Maybe its because they are SMART enough to place servers outside of germany for the rest of the world :rolleyes: .
Anyway, Archeus if you think 250 people playing this entire game at night is because the game has no problems you have alot to figure out. People don't quit and bitch about bugs because everyones computers are fucked up. My computer is fine, everything else runs 100% perfect....except neocron. Same goes with my 8 friends who used to play htis game, 2 left playing the rest moved on to Shadowbane and DAoC where they crash or lag maybe once a month.
You want a solution? or you just came to whine? If the former then post the details or email KK.
I like this game and want it to succeed, so KK has to fix the bugs. I don't want to say nothing and sit back and relax like you and watch the game burn, sorry. These bugs stay...the game fails. Plain and simple.
ZoneVortex
24-11-03, 16:56
yeah agreed to the max :cool:
no new content, fix the BUUUUGS
Fix the grphical glitches that cause FREs too damnit. It CAN NOT BE THAT HARD. But the more new stuff you add, the more new code you add, that harder it'll be to weed out the faulty FRE causing aspects.
Originally posted by ZoneVortex
yeah agreed to the max :cool:
no new content, fix the BUUUUGS
Fix the grphical glitches that cause FREs too damnit. It CAN NOT BE THAT HARD. But the more new stuff you add, the more new code you add, that harder it'll be to weed out the faulty FRE causing aspects.
ZoneVortex...its not the game, its your computer! :rolleyes:
What a complete pile of bullshit.
Yea its the machine gort you noob setup up your PC properly and you wont get fuck ups.
I mean it is my machines fault that running through Plaza 1 with 30 people in it was giving my machine 10fps and lag.
http://www.you-are-a-huge-nerd.com/public/freepix/Bigfight.jpg
Yet the fps is the same here. Only difference is a couple hundred people and lots of preety spells going off.
hahaha
if that many people were ever on the screen in neocron, you wouldn't have the chance to take a screenshot...you would be too busy hammering escape to get out of the black syncronizing screen :lol:
and people actually deny it...its a problem
Just try and put two PCs next to each other and leave NC on. But not only for a short time.
You will notice that several times you get exatly at the same time a sync. So I doubt this has anything to do with the setup. An both PCs I use have completely different components installed. (And the internet connection was up all time)
Just last week I had the cooles bug ever. I ran through p1 to the gogo when suddenly… sync… waited for some time… and when I was back again, I was warped to K_15. Just a little pop up came up, asking me if I wanted to use the Venture warp… I clicked “no” and nothing happened. Just a sec later another one was warped next to me. The only thing he could say was “Damn” before he got shot by a Scout unit. ^^
Originally posted by g0rt
If KK's game crashes on ANY computer, its KK's fault..especially when all other MMORPGs rarely if ever crash.
Yes because KK is responisble for fixing *thier* bugs, they cannot however know every possible combination of setup.
You have just offhand to test (on the client end)...
- Memory setup
- Graphics setup
- Internet connection/Latency testing
- Operating system type (W98, W2k, XP, Language? German, English, French?, etc)
- What other programs running? Firewall? Instant messenger? SETI@Home, Anti-Virus software, etc.
And that is just a guess. Just because a totally different commercial product works fine on your machine does not guarantee that your machine is somehow free from problems.
Maybe its because they are SMART enough to place servers outside of germany for the rest of the world :rolleyes:
Which has what exactly to do with the problem?
Anyway, Archeus if you think 250 people playing this entire game at night is because the game has no problems you have alot to figure out.
I am not saying there isn't bugs. I would even suggest that some people leave because of them. But whining about it isn't going to solve the problem. Screaming "OMG KK FIX THE GODDAM BUGS!!" doesn't help in the slightest. You want to help improve the game then make more imformed SPR reports.
My computer is fine, everything else runs 100% perfect....except neocron.
Like I said that just does not guarantee your machine is without faults. Prehaps your version of NC is corrupted? Done a check files? Without knowing more about your machine it makes it harder to determine what the problem is.
I like this game and want it to succeed, so KK has to fix the bugs. I don't want to say nothing and sit back and relax like you and watch the game burn, sorry. These bugs stay...the game fails. Plain and simple. [/B]
Who is sitting back? If I crash or come across a new bug I report it. I don't sit back, it only looks like I sit back prehaps because I do not get anywhere near the problems you have.
WTF are you talking about.
Every game on the planet I have done install and play. What with neocron it my responsiblity to do shit and test shit on my PC to make sure it runs smooth.
That in it self is stupid. You think anyone new is gonna come to this game that well into its life and be like its bugged to fuck but its ok. Its my PC I need to see what I can do about it.
Lemme see
http://ubisoft.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ubisoft.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php
http://www.blizzard.com/support/
http://uo.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/uo.cfg/php/enduser/home.php
and neocrons help http://www.neocron.com/index.php?name=NeoContent&op=modload&file=index&pageID=31
Every game on the planet has a decent support site. Neocrons only real support is the whole community trying to figure it out.
Yes because KK is responisble for fixing *thier* bugs, they cannot however know every possible combination of setup.
You have just offhand to test (on the client end)...
- Memory setup
- Graphics setup
- Internet connection/Latency testing
- Operating system type (W98, W2k, XP, Language? German, English, French?, etc)
- What other programs running? Firewall? Instant messenger? SETI@Home, Anti-Virus software, etc.
And that is just a guess. Just because a totally different commercial product works fine on your machine does not guarantee that your machine is somehow free from problems.
Wrong. They can and should. If every other MMORPG on the market runs perfectly on my machine, so should Neocron. Plain and simple. My computer does everything perfectly for what this exact computer is meant to do. Neocron fucks up, alot. Yet I can play any of the other mmorpg's i used to play for 24 hours straight without a fuckup. KK's problem.
Which has what exactly to do with the problem?
Uhmm...lol? You said yourself that lag could be causing the problem. Just like everyone else in North America, I lag to the servers. I get a 130 ping while Euro people get a 40 ping. Im sure 90% of the sync problems have to do with lag.
@kimmyG - can you believe this guy?
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 17:25
Originally posted by g0rt
Wrong. They can and should. If every other MMORPG on the market runs perfectly on my machine, so should Neocron. Plain and simple. My computer does everything perfectly for what this exact computer is meant to do. Neocron fucks up, alot. Yet I can play any of the other mmorpg's i used to play for 24 hours straight without a fuckup. KK's problem.
Uhmm...lol? You said yourself that lag could be causing the problem. Just like everyone else in North America, I lag to the servers. I get a 130 ping while Euro people get a 40 ping. Im sure 90% of the sync problems have to do with lag.
@kimmyG - can you believe this guy?
1. there is no such things as a bug free, perfect game, let alone MMORPG.
2. i am a euro person and i get no less problems because of it... moving the servers would be expensive... and as you said yourself, the bugs drive players (and therefore money) away.
1. there is no such things as a bug free, perfect game, let alone MMORPG.
Honestly, I played DAoC for months without one problem. Without a single incorrect sync. Without a single lagout. Without a single graphical error. Without a single NPC doing stupid shit (ie getting stuck in a wall). Without a single crash. Without a single ANYTHING. It ran flawlessly. And the game is shit. Neocron has 500 times more potential then that piece of shit does, but yet because of bugs no one is interested in Neocron, they go with the inferior game because it plays better.
Sad but true.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
1. there is no such things as a bug free, perfect game, let alone MMORPG.
Yea but bug wise neocron is at the bottom its array of bugs is ridiculos.
There is never bug free, But being full of bugs is not acceptable.
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 17:31
oh ill agree there... the amount of bugs in NC is the worst i have personally encountered
:edit: oh and for the record i play both the euro and US releases of DAoC. i played them for 2 years now i think. i have had many a bug on there
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
oh ill agree there... the amount of bugs in NC is the worst i have personally encountered
:edit: oh and for the record i play both the euro and US releases of DAoC. i played them for 2 years now i think. i have had many a bug on there
Well it must be your machine then because I never had a bug. :rolleyes:
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 17:44
lmfao!
i remember MJS once openly saying that as far as he is conserned NC has no bugs cos as no one sends in bug reports, he wont acknowledge them. i cant be bothered to find the quote etc as i cant search for bug or mjs etc :p
and my computer is custom built by me and for the record i get 1 or 2 crashes of any kind in NC every 24 hours! i get 100 fps average, 60 ping and 500 bw.
and besides... if its my computer mythic should know every kind of computer and tailor the game for it! [/sarcasm]
Its called sarcasm. I don't really think its your computers fault.
And if MJS wants to think that, he can go ahead and think that. And he can also enjoy being a failure.
Jesterthegreat
24-11-03, 17:50
dear lord... put us all out of your misery and quit?
i mean jesus... make a better MMORPG then bitch about neocron!
kthxbye
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
dear lord... put us all out of your misery and quit?
i mean jesus... make a better MMORPG then bitch about neocron!
kthxbye
See? Thats the general attitude..."you don't like it, then quit!"
Well it looks like its working, cuz no one likes or plays this game. Its dead. 300 people on at night.
But me? Unlike you, I want to see this game succeed. And telling people to quit instead of facing the facts that this game has BUGS that need FIXING...is not what im going to do.
Do you want neocron to fail. Do you all enjoy capping chars and getting shit to have this game die down the road. You all can keep your attitudes and think the way you think but it will only lead this game into nothingness.
Originally posted by g0rt
Wrong. They can and should. If every other MMORPG on the market runs perfectly on my machine, so should Neocron. Plain and simple.
I really wish this was the case but it isn't.
You have also never been in a test environment where you have had to test on multiple languages/operating systems. It can be hell to test on. One of the reasons MMORPGs have Betas and test servers, so that people who play on them can send in bug reports. However most people treat Beta as a free game to play and test servers as thier own modded version of NC meets Quake.
My computer does everything perfectly for what this exact computer is meant to do.
Still curious. What is the spec of your machine? Or is there some reason you won't mention it?
I mean my brother has problems with NC on his machine, but then he has only 256MB of memory and a crappy onboard half-duplex sound card. But even he doesn't crash as much as you make on. I rarely crash but then I have a high end system and nice connection.
Uhmm...lol? You said yourself that lag could be causing the problem. Just like everyone else in North America, I lag to the servers. I get a 130 ping while Euro people get a 40 ping. Im sure 90% of the sync problems have to do with lag.
So you now say that it is probably lag, and not KK. You do know that there is a nice hop of servers between you and KK that KK have absolutly no power over. How does screaming at KK solve that problem?
You want the game to succeed? Quit whining, when you hit a bug make a bug report.
robdekoning
24-11-03, 19:51
U online 12 hours at a row? wow
Quick relog? Every time I want to relog I have to exit the NC client, as if I simply try to relog it says failed proxy session or something. Really annoying.
I seem to get a lot of synch on logging in. Sometimes takes me 2 or 3 tries to log in, and coupled with the proxy problem as I said above, it can take a while.
Promethius
24-11-03, 20:04
Yea g0rt this game has some serious bugs (that were in beta...which IMO shoulda been fixed there)
Well heres a list of bugs i can think of happen to me on a daily basis:
1. your standard FRE (Fatal Runtime Error)
2. random syncro
3. Stuck in syncro between zones
4. open citycom and fatal (happens less often but happens none the less)
5. Weapons aren't wat they say they are (when u get ressed after u die)
6. Still dead even tho you've been ressed
7. GR somewhere but fatal and are in same spot but with SI and paid the 4k
8. Random warping when u zone.
9. GoGo items all disappear and scare the crap outa urself. (rarely happens but it does)
I'm sure theres more i havn't listed but well i don't think these should be still happening. Or is this gunna be a o when DoY comes out it'll all be fixed reply....which of course won't be the case.
Originally posted by Kimiko
Quick relog? Every time I want to relog I have to exit the NC client, as if I simply try to relog it says failed proxy session or something. Really annoying.
I used to get that a lot too. Try setting your NC to a fixed port in the neocron.ini (if you don't know do a search, or I can post later as I am not at the NC machine).
...
1. your standard FRE (Fatal Runtime Error)
...
6. Still dead even tho you've been ressed
There is no such thing as a standard FRE. It is an generic error message and one FRE could be totally different to another (hence the reason to file a bug report).
My only other comment is on issue 6 should be fixed some patches ago. It only happened when the death detection was done client side. It is still happening?
Cruzbroker
24-11-03, 20:08
Most of FRE and Synchs happens because of you computer, connection or the server. Those are not bugs. But there's hell lot of bugs too, which should be fixed and checked real good.
Promethius
24-11-03, 20:13
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
Most of FRE and Synchs happens because of you computer, connection or the server. Those are not bugs. But there's hell lot of bugs too, which should be fixed and checked real good.
Well why don't i FRE from other games...ever. Why wouldn't they jsut make the game more compatible. Cuz the way it seems to me these happen to ALOT of people. More often to some than others. They mentioned the reason they can't fix it because no one sends in there error logs adn wat not. But how come they never ASKED the neocron community to send in our error logs and possible work together to fix these problems?
Cruzbroker
24-11-03, 20:22
I just noticed that I play 2 crappy games :lol:
the other one (http://koti.phnet.fi/jarpoh/bugaaperkele.JPG) ...
the servers suck imo. Not the game, SO MUCH..
Originally posted by Archeus
If it was happening to everyone every 2nd post here would be people screaming about crashes. Or don't you remember a months after retail release?
[edited for violation of the forum rules] That's 50% of the posts start out as bug reports! And that's only counting the 50% that actually are pissed off enough about it to file a complain on this forum. Many people just go "Ah, FRE again. Relog. Tell your buddies you had an FRE" and continue on. And that's just ONE bug. If everyone actually bothered reporting every single bug/problem that prevented them from enjoying the game on this forum, then there would not be any room for discussion! I alone would be posting about 20-30 bug threads a day, and I have a life, so I don't play Neocron 15 hours a day. Think how many bugs people like that encounter!
So don't give me any of that fanboi bull and look at the real fact!
Man, these fanbois just get me so pissed at times!
Originally posted by Archeus
A lot of the bugs have to do with setup or internet latency/client prediction.
Despite the private love letters to me. If you have two machines with the exact same NC software on it then any crashes have to be related to either machine set up or your connection. So don't be so quick to blame KK that it is there fault. Next time you have a problem, send the logs to KK and file it as an SPR so they can track what is causing it.
How is it NOT their fucking fault!? You're really getting me pissed off here with your ignorance! "internet latency/client prediction"? Who the FUCK do you think wrote that code? KK or some gremlin? Who made the game that has inferior preditions? On top of that HOW THE FUCK is the game crashing on system X but not system Y NOT the fault of the makers of the game? Does Quake crash on every system that is different from Carmack's? Does Half Life crash on every system that is different from Valve's? Does Diablo crash on every fucking system that is different from Bioware's? [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
P.S. SPRs do not work as is evident by thousands of them everyone has been sending on all the same bugs since beta and most of them have yet to be fixed or addressed or even mentioned!
P.P.S. Walk off to get some green tea to calm down.
Originally posted by Lareolan
On top of that HOW THE FUCK is the game crashing on system X but not system Y NOT the fault of the makers of the game?
If system X is not standard to what others have. You want them to fix the bugs fine but at least supply the information. Don't just bitch like you just did.
You quote off a load of games that don't crash on every machine. Well NC doesn't crash on every machine (or crashes a hell of a lot less frequently then you report). We know you have a problem, report it.
. Many people just go "Ah, FRE again. Relog. Tell your buddies you had an FRE" and continue on. And that's just ONE bug.
Except that a FRE is not just one bug. It is numerous bugs triggering the one error message. If you don't report the problem then how the hell are KK supposed to fix it?
But how come they never ASKED the neocron community to send in our error logs and possible work together to fix these problems?
Actually they have and anyone using Test Server should be also (not using it to play on).
Bottom Fucking Line
CPU (REC) PIII 55 mhz 128mb
OS win 95b\98\ME\2000\XP
HD 1 GB
VIDEO Directx 32mb ram
SC 100% DS compatible
a Modem 56K
CD Rom 4x+
I got more CPU than that
win 2k
More HD than that
Better vid card than that
Good sound
cable line
and faster CD rom
So neocron should run fine on my pc regardless of my fucking setup.
As for bugs and FRE that KK's job to fix them. Who wants to send reports to the recycle bin. I dont pay money so I can help out with the bugs.
Lareolan, calm down before posting any more.
N
yea it is pretty amazing how buggy it still is even after so long of retail..... the FFXI launch was amazing... not 1 single bug and it has never ever crashed on me ..... wonder why they can get things so right and KK cant:/ maybe its cause they know what they are doing
Or maybe it's because their team is about a gozillion times larger.
N
Psycho Killa
24-11-03, 21:18
Originally posted by Sheba
When I use the subway 90% of the trip is in the dark, It must be Ati related as when I was in Beta useing Nvidia card I could see fine the entire trip?
That should be fixed with the next patch (on the test server they claim they fixed radeon problems i dunno for a fact though)
Dribble Joy
24-11-03, 21:23
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Or maybe it's because their team is about a gozillion times larger.
N
Exactly.
There is a pic somewhere showing the NC dev team working on some maps and stuff, all of 6 people or some thing.
Sony probably has about 20 people on the code alone.
These people are probably also been paid a phat amount of money, and are selected from the very best in the business.
Originally posted by Promethius
Well why don't i FRE from other games...ever. Why wouldn't they jsut make the game more compatible. Cuz the way it seems to me these happen to ALOT of people. More often to some than others. They mentioned the reason they can't fix it because no one sends in there error logs adn wat not. But how come they never ASKED the neocron community to send in our error logs and possible work together to fix these problems?
Easy, they don't care. They get their little money from the diehard fanatics like us, and that's all they need.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 21:41
Originally posted by KimmyG
I dont pay money so I can help out with the bugs.
8| no you help out with the bug because nc can then find those annoying bugs and fix them hopefully.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
----------------
How big is nc's codeing time?
How do they spend there time?
How much time do they have to spend?
What is the subscription base for the game?
How has the subscription base varied over time?
These are all Q's that are very had to get answers to
Another thing I would like to know is that if things are going so well for KK than why are they not spending the money to sort out there game?
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Or maybe it's because their team is about a gozillion times larger.
N
Oh yeah, I mean Blizzard's Diablo 2 team was huge! I mean they had a whole 12 people including artists, modelers, musicians and coders. (I think there were 3 or 4 coders for the whole project). And yet the game was complete and working well, never crashing AT release time. What more, any bugs/exploits that were discovered were promptly removed. The abundance of items is incredible compare to that in Neocron. Characters actually look a lot more unique even though they don't get to pick their faces and the player model is fixed to what class you chose. The variety comes simply from weapon and armor. More items come out all the time as well as new patches to stop exploits. Now what is the difference between Blizzard's team of 12 and KK's team of 12? Is it because of funding? Blizzard has more money, true, but how is their team of 12 different than KK's team of 12? Finally must I remind you that Diablo/Diablo2 are NOT a pay to play service and yet Blizzard gives a lot more continued FREE support for the game than KK does. Even though from commercial point of view, all they need you to do is buy the box. Then not play the game as the online service is free, and as such generates a pure loss for the company by running the BNet servers and paying for the bandwidth. So why do they keep supporting the game? Keep making new patches even though there are no noticable bugs in the game? Why do they continue to release new content and keep people interested in playing the rather limited game? When you can answer THAT, then KK might be able to move on from being a Mickey Mouse two-bit operation and become a real company. Until then I cannot take KK seriously, and I seriously doubt any serious publisher will be able to take them seriously either.
Edit:
Another thing I would like to know is that if things are going so well for KK than why are they not spending the money to sort out there game?
True. MJS keeps claiming that KK has no problems and that it has money and is financially stable. Well, if that's the truth why doesn't he hire a few professionals to help out with the game? I can only think of two reasons:
1) MJS is BSing every time he says KK has no financial problems and in fact KK cannot afford to increase it's staff.
or
2) MJS does not actually want the game to succeed, so he will keep the game running as long as it keeps generating money through the diehard NC'ers and then will shut down the servers and move on to something else.
If I'm not right then prove me wrong! Give us an official word or even better set up a Q&A session with a KK representative so we could actually know what is going on. The REAL truth on who works at KK, what their positions are. What they do for 5 days a week. What kind of agendas/plans every memeber of the team has etc... We are paying customers and there are are specific rights that we have for public disclosure of such facts. So let's see it. Show us who and what KK are and what they are doing and planning to do in the near future.
Originally posted by robinitnow
8| no you help out with the bug because nc can then find those annoying bugs and fix them hopefully.
Find it? It is the same shit I was posting about over a year ago.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 22:09
You need to send a ticket in while in the game if you mope about it on the forum it douse not get to there list of things to do. But on the up side it douse give people a warning about the bugs so there is an up and a down.
Originally posted by robinitnow
You need to send a ticket in while in the game if you mope about it on the forum it douse not get to there list of things to do. But on the up side it douse give people a warning about the bugs so there is an up and a down.
What am I gonna write?
I just FRE'ed
I just synced to someone's ap
I am getting super low FPS for looking at an op
If they dont know all the common errors by now there is no support or dev team.
I am very sure they know all the common bugs they need to fix them now.
Originally posted by Lareolan
Oh yeah, I mean Blizzard's Diablo 2 team was huge! I mean they had a whole 12 people including artists, modelers, musicians and coders. (I think there were 3 or 4 coders for the whole project).That almost sounds credible. I learned a long time ago never to take the word of an anonymous "name" on the internet though so I did some investigating of my own. If you care to read the Diablo II Postmortem (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001025/schaefer_01.htm) on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) you'll find that there were actually 40 full-time developers for three years. Please don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes. :rolleyes:
1) MJS is BSing every time he says KK has no financial problems and in fact KK cannot afford to increase it's staff.So why is he hiring PS2 programmers? Not to mention the three new people hired on for Neocron.
2) MJS does not actually want the game to succeedThat's such a childish statement I'm not even going to address it.
If I'm not right then prove me wrong!I believe I just did.
N
Originally posted by Lafiel
yea it is pretty amazing how buggy it still is even after so long of retail..... the FFXI launch was amazing... not 1 single bug and it has never ever crashed on me ..... wonder why they can get things so right and KK cant:/ maybe its cause they know what they are doing
final fantasy had more bugs then neocron at release, your just getting the game over a year after the japanese
Did any of the complainers ever check the forums of the named examples, like Ultima or Diablo II? COMPLAINS, BUGS, ERRORS! I've played both those games for several years, (3 on UO, 2 on D2), and they were bugged, just in different ways.
If you think 'we' got suckered, check the changelog for the Diablo 2 big-butt-patch. Yes, they fixed lots of bugs! And yes, they had been playing with those bugs for over a year, and Blizz must have known them for a while.
-N
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Mad 1337 pwning skillz
N
Why thankyou nid, i just spat out my nutri-grain bar laughing GO NID!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Nidhogg
That almost sounds credible. I learned a long time ago never to take the word of an anonymous "name" on the internet though so I did some investigating of my own. If you care to read the Diablo II Postmortem (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001025/schaefer_01.htm) on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) you'll find that there were actually 40 full-time developers for three years. Please don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes. :rolleyes:
So why is he hiring PS2 programmers? Not to mention the three new people hired on for Neocron.
That's such a childish statement I'm not even going to address it.
I believe I just did.
N
Why do you OWN so much nid?
Were you born that way or did u have to kill small sewer rats for decades to become so "ub3r"? :D
Originally posted by L0KI
Why do you OWN so much nid?
Were you born that way or did u have to kill small sewer rats for decades to become so "ub3r"? :D
m3h... I think he killed small sewer rats for decades....
(*** wonders if nid is strong enough to kill Dragonflies now =/ ***)
Originally posted by Nidhogg
That almost sounds credible. I learned a long time ago never to take the word of an anonymous "name" on the internet though so I did some investigating of my own. If you care to read the Diablo II Postmortem (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001025/schaefer_01.htm) on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) you'll find that there were actually 40 full-time developers for three years. Please don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes. :rolleyes:
"Our staff has grown steadily from about 12 at the start of Diablo to 24 at the start of Diablo II" - So um... How exactly what I said was a lie? If anything, you're the one who twisted the information saying that they had 40 full time developers for three years where it was only the core 12 that created the entirety of Diablo. Sorry I did twist the information myself a bit in my post as I was quoting that same article from memory (I have read it over a year ago, probably should have looked it over before making my comparison). But the fact still stands that Diablo (the original) was made and supported by a team of 12 employees. The team did grow to 24 when they started working on Diablo2.
"Diablo II took more than 40 people and over three years, essentially because we made two or three games and pared them down to the best one." - So basically they had 40 people work on practically 3 different games out of which they chose one that worked the best. (40/3 = 13.3) So once again I was off by 1.3! Maybe my memory isn't all that bad, considering I read the article over a year ago.
Originally posted by Nidhogg
So why is he hiring PS2 programmers? Not to mention the three new people hired on for Neocron.
We were never told that and why would he be hiring PS2 programmers indeed? Shouldn't he have one working product before trying to port this same product to other systems? (Which I assume what the PS2 coders are being hired for).
Originally posted by Nidhogg
That's such a childish statement I'm not even going to address it.
I believe I just did.
N
It was a childish statement, that is true, but it is the general feeling of a lot of people on this board. Not just my own feelings so I felt like expressing them. In all honesty KK employees just don't communicate enough with us, the paying customers leaving us to jump to our own conclusions. If you do not want us jumping to such conclusions why don't you put down your almighty Nid-hammer for 20-30 minutes once a week and actually put a proper "latest news" link on the main page that shall contain a report of what is happening with the product this week. What is being looked at. What is being developed etc... Because even though you say you "just did" prove me worng, the please do tell what is going on with the staff? I believe KK includes artist(s), music/sound technician(s) no writer currently, but still. There are more people supposedly working at KK than the one coder - CoDi who seems to actually do something. So while the programmers have an excuse of tracking down bugs (or at least attempting to), working out bugs in DoY etc... what are the artist(s), modeler(s) and sound specialist(s) doing? What is preventing them from say... Making a unique model for every weapon in the game so an Unabled Gatlin Rifle, a Gatrlin Rifle and a Tangent Gatlin Rifle would look differently. And the same applies to all other weapons, armor, implants etc in the game. Heck, even skin variations would be a welcome sight. Perhaps make those PA differ in looks and textures from level 1 to level 4 as they should. I'm not saying work on new content, that would potentially unbalance the delicate "balance" we currently have in the game (Even though an influx of a few hundred more items for every class could help bring much needed variety to the game).
So Nidhogg, are you up for it? Back your words with some actual actions?
Originally posted by KimmyG
What am I gonna write?
I just FRE'ed
I just synced to someone's ap
I am getting super low FPS for looking at an op
If they dont know all the common errors by now there is no support or dev team.
I am very sure they know all the common bugs they need to fix them now.
FRE is a common error message, it may not always be a common or easy error to debug. There should be error logs in your neocron folder when you crash you can send.
Syncs is probably a common one. As for super low FPS it is possible that your client sees a leak in the environment so reporting an SPR (assuming the SPR gives X/Y/Z co-ords) should help.
...Did any of the complainers ever check the forums of the named examples, like Ultima
UO crashed the same if not more then Neocron. However to get back into the game was extremly fast so it wasn't that much of an issue to many.
Originally posted by Lareolan
We were never told that and why would he be hiring PS2 programmers indeed? Shouldn't he have one working product before trying to port this same product to other systems? (Which I assume what the PS2 coders are being hired for).
linky linky (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82241)
Anyway, why should KK tell us about something that isn't directly related to the neocron project?
It was a childish statement, that is true, but it is the general feeling of a lot of people on this board.
You mean, the feelings of kids who technically shouldn't be playing this game due to its mature rating. :wtf:
Most of the adult-types on the forums are infinately patient, seeing as right now, we're closer than we've ever been to actually getting DoY.
You said:
they had a whole 12 people including artists, modelers, musicians and coders. (I think there were 3 or 4 coders for the whole project).
Erich Schaefer, vice president of Blizzard North said:
The Diablo II team comprised three main groups: programming, character art (everything that moves), and background art (everything that doesn't move), with roughly a dozen members each.Whom do I believe?
N
robinitnow
24-11-03, 23:08
To be fare to Lareolan the last announcement was on the 04.28.03, which is ridiculous, and I can’t think of another mmog that would not tell the players that it had hired three more people to code the game. Normally in my experience games often have a reasonable amount of info about the coders and post as much as they can about what is going on, in the case on nc the opposite is true.
But we do have a dam good forum witch is a lot more than some other titles
: Chough:SWG:Chough:
Sony has people come and go regularly.
Do any players know that?
No.
The job of Reakktor, is to provide a game.
The job of the player, is to play the game; not play the role of a 'back seat driver'.
Frankly, we shouldn't give a crap about KK - but because KK has shown to be responsive to our queries, we do.
Why?
Because we feel we have the ability to control and change the game as we see fit.
Name any other MMO provider that bestows that power on the playerbase.
{MD}GeistDamnit
24-11-03, 23:15
Originally posted by Nidhogg
That almost sounds credible. I learned a long time ago never to take the word of an anonymous "name" on the internet though so I did some investigating of my own. If you care to read the Diablo II Postmortem (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001025/schaefer_01.htm) on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) you'll find that there were actually 40 full-time developers for three years. Please don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes. :rolleyes:
So why is he hiring PS2 programmers? Not to mention the three new people hired on for Neocron.
That's such a childish statement I'm not even going to address it.
I believe I just did.
N
hmm ps2, that's interesting.I would like to see a ps2 neocron or anything to make KK a bit richer so we can get some shit going in game finally.
about the statement of mjs not wanting neocron to succeed, I dont think that is the case, but I disagree about it being a childesh statement.Maybe the guy who said it ment it in that way, but to cut ones losses and spread out a product that is inferior and milk it till it's dry with little overhead is a common business practice.So basically in theory mjs could have done that.I do not think that is the case however.
But my whole point is this: what could be holding up the bug fixes and shitty servers? I'm not talkin about doy or any of that new content shit, what I want to know is if mjs/kk is spending money to "expand" then why do we still have serious bugs and lag issues? the way I'm seeing it things are going along way too slow.It was what a month before we got test patch 218, and now it's been a while dunno 2 weeks since it and nothing has been on retail.all the while we having serious lag on some servers and people are quitting left and right due to boerdom.
Now make believe I'm in charge... I would think to myself "damn people are getting sick of my game, what am I gonna do?" and I would take action.but not only take action, I would let the troubled community know that I was on the ball and getting things improved.
So what I see is nothing is being drastically done, mjs is not in the slightest bit worried and they don't even aknoweledge most of the big bugs.all while we sit here like fanboy morons waiting for either "doy" or bugfixes or what have you.
oh well, it's only 10 bucks a month.wipe your asses with it for all I care.but your the ones who will suffer in the end if your game bonks :(
robinitnow
24-11-03, 23:23
Originally posted by Marx
we shouldn't give a crap about KK - but because KK has shown to be responsive to our queries
:confused: only when every one got up and stamped there feet about a pacific problem (Though I can't remember any examples of this)
Originally posted by Marx
Because we feel we have the ability to control and change the game as we see fit.
Name any other MMO provider that bestows that power on the playerbase.
Planetarion did
I think the community feels that the game can be enhanced by there comments being taken on board by the company. One of the corner stones of any good software company is that it lissons the gripes of the people who actually use there product for real so that they can make it better with the next instalment.
Originally posted by Nidhogg
You said:
they had a whole 12 people including artists, modelers, musicians and coders. (I think there were 3 or 4 coders for the whole project).
Erich Schaefer, vice president of Blizzard North said:Whom do I believe?
The Diablo II team comprised three main groups: programming, character art (everything that moves), and background art (everything that doesn't move), with roughly a dozen members each.
N
Wow. You're very skilled at misleading aren't you. Once again totally focusing on Diablo 2 totally ignoring Diablo. I will once again quote:
"Diablo II took more than 40 people and over three years, essentially because we made two or three games and pared them down to the best one."
That means YES, they DID have triple the staff working on Diablo 2, but they also built 3 "versions" so to speak of the game as most textures/models/sounds and code was written in multiple versions and only the best was selected. Compared to KK who just had 12 people (or so) working solidly on the single project. Furthermore, Diablo, the original was created in it's entirety by the original 12 members of the staff at Blizzard.
Again I'll quote: "Our staff has grown steadily from about 12 at the start of Diablo to 24 at the start of Diablo II...". Yes, Diablo was created with 12 people.
So really, the one who is "pulling the whool" here is you by very skillfully ignoring everything I say that is right and attacking those little things that are open to misinterpretation. Perhaps you should consider a career in politics. But the fact remains that you are trying to mislead myself and the readers of this thread (intentionally or not, I do not know). Diablo WAS built with only 12 people. Diablo 2 was built with 24 - 40 people (Not all the additional staff was hired the moment the project started).
And yes, for those who say Diablo and Diablo 2 still have bugs, they do. The only truely bugfree software is the one that does nothing. As soon as it does something, it's easy for a person to miss something, leading to bugs. It's human, coders are not machines. However, I played Diablo 2 and Diablo 2 Expansion for nearly a year and have not encountered a single bug that I'd even notice. The only "bug" that was there that was a bit annoying was when a lot of things were moving on the screen there was occasionally serious graphical lag on my system as I did not have a very good machine back then. So playing an amazon with javelin lightning fury on the cow level and gowing right in the midst of all those cows often was a gamble of wether I kill them first, or they kill me first as I had such low framerate I could not tell if I was getting hit and needed to run before I died.
But that isn't really a bug as a flaw with the engine and could easily be fixed by a system upgrade. The game was still playable however and if I switched to a different weapon or a different class, there was no problem at all.
The other bug that was somewhat annoying but I never really encountered much was the fact that when you fought Diablo himself, if he was not on your screen and he shot his flame jet at you, you wouldn't see it drawn and so you'd be taking damage and dieing not having had sufficient time to react. Also very easy to solve by having high fire resistance armor, high leech weapon and just staying close to Diablo and hit him non-stop. Either that or have a good homing ranged weapon and just keep moving that way you never get hit by the jet of flame.
I have never had any crashes in the game for the entire time I played the game. I have never appeared in someone else's body. I never consumed my hard to find WF bow as a health potion due to a bug. I have never lost items out of my inventory or chest due to a bug. I have never lost any items or levels due to rollbacks. I have never been teleported somewhere against my will to be caught in a very dangerous area and die in moments losing a good item (Heck, you couldn't LOSE items in Diablo(2) all you could do is money. Big woop, it was totally pushed out as any sort of currency very very very fast). So, yes, there WERE bugs, like in any game, but those bugs did not make the game unplayable or make it an annoyance to play the game.
only when every one got up and stamped there feet about a pacific problem (Though I can't remember any examples of this)
Pretty much every change which has occured in game over the past 6 months has been asked for in one form or another.
Do a bit of searching on the brainport - it will amaze you.
I think the community feels that the game can be enhanced by there comments being taken on board by the company
That's a big negetive romeo november. Most comments aimed at KK on these boards consist of the following.
"Blah Blah (insert problem)
*Waaaah Waaaah* (Insert tantrum)
*stomp stomp* (Insert person stomping their foot)
Do this or I'll quit"
I'd also like to point out that this is why big time MMO's generally don't have 'official' forums.
robinitnow
24-11-03, 23:43
Originally posted by Marx
Pretty much every change which has occured in game over the past 6 months has been asked for in one form or another.
Do a bit of searching on the brainport - it will amaze you.
That is because just about everything has been covered but I am talking about when you actually get a reaction KK that you an see and attribute to what is happing on the main boards.
Originally posted by Marx
Most comments aimed at KK on these boards consist of the following.
"Blah Blah (insert problem)
*Waaaah Waaaah* (Insert tantrum)
*stomp stomp* (Insert person stomping their foot)
Do this or I'll quit"
I'd also like to point out that this is why big time MMO's generally don't have 'official' forums.
:lol: lol so true
but that is one way of telling them what we do not like plus it lets some pople let off steam about the game.
Dribble Joy
24-11-03, 23:46
Originally posted by robinitnow
but that is one way of telling them what we do not like plus it lets some pople let off steam about the game.
True, but people should try and be a bit more refined and offer balance and thought out solutions rather than 'fuck you KK, fix this or I'm leaving!!!!'
The more you appear to have brains the more people are likely to discuss and help each other and the devs rather than starting a flame war.
The big problem with KK folk popping onto the forums revolves around this.
Anything they say, can and will be used against them.
Anything a Reakktor employee or volunteer might say is viewed by most as the 'official' response, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
Hell, just look at the way the words of Lupus were tossed around.
To prevent this sort of... confusion, coders and peeps browse the boards (best way to tell is to put 'em all on your buddy list ;) ) and only pop in to give game info when they're a.) told to -or- b.) forced to resolve a situation.
I don't want to be a goody two shoe but really, I find that most MMORPG's do have bugs and I am trying to live with it.
OK it is terrible if you loose all your stuff due to a bug and that really throws me and that is about the only bug that will probably make me leave this game one day
But all the other stuff is a nuisance, but we CAN live with it I think.
I think the server just needs another update or whatever they do to it, I believe it has not had one for a while (Saturn). I have been getting more than the usual syncs lately.
When is the next patch due?
Originally posted by Marx
Pretty much every change which has occured in game over the past 6 months has been asked for in one form or another.
Do a bit of searching on the brainport - it will amaze you.
Yes, but it takes thousands and thousands of replies to a thread or an idea to get KK to even consider it. There have been plenty of good ideas that will never see the light of day simply because not enough people have seen the idea and commented on it or because it would require more than 5 minutes to implement that idea. (Let's be honest here. Every player idea that HAS been implemented so far could be implemented by someone who knows what they're doing in a matter of 5 minutes.)
Originally posted by Marx
That's a big negetive romeo november. Most comments aimed at KK on these boards consist of the following.
"Blah Blah (insert problem)
*Waaaah Waaaah* (Insert tantrum)
*stomp stomp* (Insert person stomping their foot)
Do this or I'll quit"
I'd also like to point out that this is why big time MMO's generally don't have 'official' forums.
Well, that is true... But in all honesty, I think the reason most MMO's generally don't have official forums is probably because they just don't want to have to moderate it. If you notice, the ones that don't have forums are the big companies who dislike hiring on volunteers and they don't want to hire full time moderators so they avoid the whole thing by not having official forums.
Originally posted by Nidhogg
Or maybe it's because their team is about a gozillion times larger.
N
actually a larger coding team would cause more bugs because not all the coders communicate with eachother about every single thing they did so if one coder does something something another coder does could conflict with it.... at least with a 1 coder team that 1 guy knows exactly every part of the code so less bugs :/
robinitnow
24-11-03, 23:55
"When is the next patch due?"
Gases into crystal ball and waves arms franticly :fuss fuss poof:
er my ball is broken
-------
but really they get round to it when they get round to it only they can give you an indication.
{MD}GeistDamnit
24-11-03, 23:56
Originally posted by NeoChick
I don't want to be a goody two shoe but really, I find that most MMORPG's do have bugs and I am trying to live with it.
OK it is terrible if you loose all your stuff due to a bug and that really throws me and that is about the only bug that will probably make me leave this game one day
But all the other stuff is a nuisance, but we CAN live with it I think.
I think the server just needs another update or whatever they do to it, I believe it has not had one for a while (Saturn). I have been getting more than the usual syncs lately.
When is the next patch due?
I dunno neochick, I dont like living with lag during pvp.I am human afterall and dying to lag or a bug still hurts your ego and image. and losing stuff to a bug kill can happen. luckily I never lost anything due to a bug ( cept a 3 slot epr ) but losing shit in fights that go sour due to a bug or crash, or fre'ng during a critical moment in an op war really sucks.and lag sucks cause if your spiking like I was today you would have logged too. so "we CAN live with them" is your opinion, not a fact.
and maybe with luck we will get a patch on wendsday, I hope we do :D
Yes, but it takes thousands and thousands of replies to a thread or an idea to get KK to even consider it.
Negetive. 3 melee threads, 2 started by myself.
Five months later, we have most of the key changes we asked for. (still waiting for a slower melee break rate =P )
What is required, is patience, not thousands of replies.
If your idea actually makes sense game wise, and grammar wise... Then generally those ideas seem to get forwarded.
far could be implemented by someone who knows what they're doing in a matter of 5 minutes
Dynamic objects took longer than 5 minutes, in fact - perhaps it's that 5 minute mark which made them botch up.
They're being reworked (Probably rearranging size, placement spots, etc) and we'll have them again later.
If you notice, the ones that don't have forums are the big companies who dislike hiring on volunteers and they don't want to hire full time moderators so they avoid the whole thing by not having official forums
Nah - the companies I'm thinking of have forums. They have forums for pretty much everything... but their MMO's.
;)
Those companies don't want potential investors looking at the forums and seeing constant bitching - in that way, KK has balls.
More balls than Interplay - who shut down their FO:BOS forum section when they couldn't keep the masses appeased.
Cruzbroker
25-11-03, 00:29
I think somethings different with 8 player diablos and 300 player neocron.. don't you? Don't compare.
Lareolan, I'll make one more comment and then leave you to it. The point is not the fine details of Blizzard's project manning profile. It's not even the fact that you chose to quote figures without first verifying your facts (assuming that people would take them at face value). The point is that you stated that the development effort of Neocron and Diablo II were in any way comparable (circa 12 people) when in actual fact Reakktor is a company of around 20 people (source (http://www.reakktor.com/Company/company.html)) and Blizzard Entertainment is a company of around 150 people (source (http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/profile.shtml)). My statement of 40 full-time developers over three years was a direct quote from Blizzard's own report (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001025/schaefer_03.htm) (see "Game Data" at the bottom of the page) and is therefore not open to my interpretation or "twisting".
@Lafiel:
actually a larger coding team would cause more bugs because not all the coders communicate with eachother about every single thing they did so if one coder does something something another coder does could conflict with it.... at least with a 1 coder team that 1 guy knows exactly every part of the code so less bugs :/Of course the coordination of a larger team is more difficult, but one person would not, in all likelihood, have the required expertise in all the specialised areas required for a video game (net code, software tools, graphics engine, sound, etc.)
N
And to give my two pennys worth Blizzard and ID are so arrogant they have kept us waiting for years for another game and are still cashing in on all of their old stuff
At least we have been in a position to thoroughly enjoy Neocron for the last year (and DOY is on the doorstep too and if it was not for the promotion issue it would have been here already)
And despite all our winges and cries about customer service etc I do not know of any other game that gives customer service as good as NC and where the top guy like MJS even becomes involved. And they do listen to what we are saying, don't know other games where you get even the remote feeling that they are listening
Martin J. Schwiezer
25-11-03, 01:02
Well, let's just summarize some facts and see what we can make of it:
It is a fact that there are many players who have second to none serious problems with Neocron (i.e. crashes max. once every 24 hrs, no real showstopper bugs etc.) and there is a minority of players who appear to have lots of bugs and crashes.
Many of the bugs mentioned are subject to latency/lag issues. If you encounter bugs on Uranus during this week, then this shouldn't be a lot to be concerned about, since there are known hardware issues on the Uranus realm, which are to be taken care of during this week.
It is not easy for us to actually analyze the problems _some_ people have with Neocron. We would like to help you, but we only can, if a bug is clearly identified.
However, there are a hell of a lot issues being analyzed _and_ fixed with _every_ patch. Just read the patch logs to find out that we're not just sitting on our hands.
robinitnow
25-11-03, 01:02
Originally posted by NeoChick
And to give my two pennys worth Blizzard and ID are so arrogant they have kept us waiting for years for another game and are still cashing in on all of their old stuff
At least we have been in a position to thoroughly enjoy Neocron for the last year (and DOY is on the doorstep too and if it was not for the promotion issue it would have been here already)
And despite all our winges and cries about customer service etc I do not know of any other game that gives customer service as good as NC and where the top guy like MJS even becomes involved. And they do listen to what we are saying, don't know other games where you get even the remote feeling that they are listening
good point well made
Just one thing that I'd like to point out about FFXI vs. Neocron is that while they have both been out for about a year, FFXI just got a relaunch for the American players and so far, I have yet to crash (other than my damn cat stepping on my Windows key), lag (due to Square-Enix; it's always my shitty ISP), or notice any bugs. (FPS can get pretty damn low sometimes, though.)
In NC, all I have to do is log in for 30 minutes and *boom* I've found one bug or another, or I've crashed (sometimes, not always), or I've synched.
The most likely reason for this is the major difference (I'm assuming here) in the sizes of the development teams. I'm not even about to try and guess how many programmers Square-Enix has, but I'm willing to bet it's more than the entire staff at KK.
KK has done some amazing things with (relatively) limited resources, and I still think it's potential is one of the greatest in MMORPGs, but until KK can do something with it, it's just going to remain an uber-buggy niche game that people rarely hear about.
--Stryfe
Finally a word comes down upon us peons. Thanks Martin for clearing up a few things. There is only one thing wrong with that statement.
Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
It is a fact that there are many players who have second to none serious problems with Neocron (i.e. crashes max. once every 24 hrs, no real showstopper bugs etc.) and there is a minority of players who appear to have lots of bugs and crashes.
Many of the bugs mentioned are subject to latency/lag issues. If you encounter bugs on Uranus during this week, then this shouldn't be a lot to be concerned about, since there are known hardware issues on the Uranus realm, which are to be taken care of during this week.
First of all I have yet to meet anyone who crashes a maximum of once every 24 hours. Pretty much everyone I know gets at least one FRE every 4 hours or so. But fine, that is related to a great multitude of bugs (most likely memory leaks in the code, and are hard to trace). But how are you going around finding those bugs? All you do is rely on bug reports which most people simply gave up on. Most people play the game to enjoy it, not to debug it. (That's the opinion of a lot of people it seems. Don't know if it's a majority or not). But the fact remain that as far as I can see you are only aware of error that are reported to you through the error-tracking system which practically no one uses. Also, how CAN you track down causes for FREs from someone posting a message saying I just got an FRE. I was at this location doing that. That is not helpful. What would help is perhaps if there was a stack/memory dump associated with FREs that could be sent to you and you could then analyze. Then we would feel like we're doing something that could actually HELP and you would have something actually HELPFUL to assist in tracing bugs. I'm a comp sci student myself and I know how hard it is to find a bug simply by sifting through the code without knowing where the error gets introduced. (Such as debugging and going step by step simulating the conditions that caused the anomaly). You have to realize that the product you have is good, but suffers from a LOT of bugs most of which have been there since beta.
And as to your suggestion to read patch notes. That's nearly useless. Patch notes usually only contain information regarding scripting changes. And most time they are improperly implemented and get re-implemented and removed later on. Look at them yourself, patches like this do not inspire confidence:
Note: The option for faction chat is displayed under custom chats, but the chat itself doesn't work yet.(#183)
- Faction chat is working as intended now. (#185)
- Faction channel can be turned off now. looks like this change didn't make it into the patch after all (#187)
- Faction Channel can be muted now. (#188)
This is not encourging at all considering #188 is dated: Sep 24, 2003 and #183 is dated: May 26, 2003. And that's just a single issue. Anyone looking through those patch notes will see plenty of fixes that keep claiming to finally fix something only to be really fixed a month or two later. Or to even be undone for one reason or another as if the patch never happened (So what's taking up so much space on my HDD?).
Added to that the sledgehammer tactics always used for balancing. When the big Hybrid nerf came it was supposed to be UP TO 20% reduction in efficiency of spells. That was what was being tested on the test server. That was what people were reporting on and what seemed like a good or at least reasonable patch. Then comes the retail patch with a FLAT 30% reduction in efficiency (as opposed to the variable up to 20% reduction). That certainly is not good practice killing the hybrid monk completely as a class (Many were rejoicing, I dislike the fact that yet another type of variety was removed from the game).
As for your remark of you "sitting on our hands" well, I realize you do not. However you hardly ever give us any indication that those hands are doing something to improve Neocron. I realize you would not be paying salaries to people who do nothing, but at the same time let us know what is being done. What is being planned. Why don't you instead of going to occasional threads that get out of hand (like this one) visit threads, collect information and then write out a in length post reply to all those issues either in the announcements forum (which is what it is there for), or on the main page. Perhaps update your .plan files? I mean looking at the latest .plan file right now "Plan File 006 - The Second Wave" Sadly it has no date, but from it's contents I would estimate it being well over 8 months old now.
If you could just spend 30-60 minutes a week of your time writing to us updates on what was being worked on. What is being done. Like:
CoDi has been hard at work polishing a few engine tweaks for DoY. Also been trying to track down the bug causing runners to suddenly be dragged along with another runner through teleporters/elevators. (Still not much success on that one).
Holger Nathrath has been hard at work making some images for the upcoming NeMa release as well as working on more textures for a few new mobs that will be added in DoY. Also planning to rework a few textures for the existing world and add some more clothing/face textures in the next month.
etc...
Something like that would not be hard at all and would show us ALL that you actually care. I for once will start worshiping the ground you walk on if you did that instead of flooding these forums with my negativity.
Finally, how long do you plan to leave the manual in the state that it is in? It is now completely outdated. Heck, it was outdated when I started playing the game back in February. Little things like this can go a long way. And the manual could be left in the hands of volunteers. Who knows more about this game more than us? (Especially about the parts that a person new to the game actually HAS to know before s/he can play?)
Well, I guess this rant went on long enough. Please consider my words. This is the difference between being one of the BEST companies and just another company out there in the sea of millions.
Originally posted by NeoChick
And to give my two pennys worth Blizzard and ID are so arrogant they have kept us waiting for years for another game and are still cashing in on all of their old stuff
So what, thats cause blizzard is the best company in the world and no one should every compare blizzard to KK. I think its sickening that I can install starcraft even now with it being so old and still have a great time plaing it. Diablo was so fun for so long. Long time well thats cause blizzard doesn't fuck up, they provide and incredible service to its games especialy considering its online play is free. Yea battle.net is not the greatest and when it shafting you, it is the purest of shit. But hey it free and every battle.net gets better.
As for ID there day is done, they went for some form of story instead of the simple mindless killing, give it up boyd Half-life is better.
Originally posted by Lafiel
actually a larger coding team would cause more bugs because not all the coders communicate with each other about every single thing they did so if one coder does something something another coder does could conflict with it.... at least with a 1 coder team that 1 guy knows exactly every part of the code so less bugs :/
Actually a larger coding team would lead to a lot less bugs. Each coder would have more time to unit test thier code, you could pair program and have peer review when checking in code. You could also have a QE team testing the code.
One coder team would lead to burnout in the coder, and thier ability to spot bugs would be worse (unless they have a rubber duck (http://www.bembry.org/books/pragmatic_programmer.php)). Even if it was better there is no way 1 coder can compete in man hours against a large team.
Diablo was so fun for so long.
Diablo was boring and one dimensional compared to any MMORPG. left click like crazy, or if a mage right click like crazy. Maybe my memory is funny but Diablo I was a total pile of crap online. Apart from the horney teenagers on battle.net you were guaranteed your character would be hacked remotely and left for dead within 5 minutes of starting a game.
{MD}GeistDamnit
25-11-03, 15:27
Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
Well, let's just summarize some facts and see what we can make of it:
It is a fact that there are many players who have second to none serious problems with Neocron (i.e. crashes max. once every 24 hrs, no real showstopper bugs etc.) and there is a minority of players who appear to have lots of bugs and crashes.
Many of the bugs mentioned are subject to latency/lag issues. If you encounter bugs on Uranus during this week, then this shouldn't be a lot to be concerned about, since there are known hardware issues on the Uranus realm, which are to be taken care of during this week.
It is not easy for us to actually analyze the problems _some_ people have with Neocron. We would like to help you, but we only can, if a bug is clearly identified.
However, there are a hell of a lot issues being analyzed _and_ fixed with _every_ patch. Just read the patch logs to find out that we're not just sitting on our hands.
I believe that some bugs have been addressed, that last test patch was a step up. but when you say that many players dont get bugs, I dont know what to think.I'm not gonna sit here and call you a liar on your own forum, and I doubt that you are in the dark about problems. but I have yet to meet someone that hasent crashed at least 4 times a day or more. I know almost everyone on uranus pretty well, and I have been to almost all the other servers and everyone I met at some time or another was bitching about fre's.
so I don't know where you get your "facts" from but most people suffer from bugs in this game.
I've played NC on 3 machines I built myself.
Machine #1:
Slot A Athlon 900mhz
256mb pc100 sdram
SoundBlaster 512 sound card
GeForce 2 MX100
MSI 6391(I think) mobo
FRE every 45minutes, max 15fps looking ANYWHERE.
Machine #2:
Socket A Athlon 1800XP
1gb pc2100 ddr-ram
GeForce 4 Ti4400
Onboard CMedia 5.1 soundcard
MSI KT3 Ultra mobo
FRE every 2 hours or so, 30 fps normally goes down to 15 during pvp or heavy mob fighting.
Machine #3:
Athlon XP 2500(barton)
1gb pc3500 ddr-ram with low timings
Radeon 9800(np)
Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS
MSI KT6 Delta FIS2R mobo
FRE every 60minutes, max 60 fps and goes down to 20 or some in pvp/mob fighting.
All 3 suffer from endless synching upon login roughly 50% of the login's.
2 go into black synch screen if left afk for more then 20minutes.
(i'm on 756k ntl cable)
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 16:26
im at work - but ill try to put in my system lol
Athlon XP 2600(barton)
512mb ddr-ram
GeForce 3 Ti 400
Chaintech mobo (i forget which)
built in sound
ADSL connection
100 average fpr, 40 average ping, 500 average bandwidth.
1 fre every 4-5 hours. sync every 2-3 hours. warp every 4-5 hours.
Originally posted by Celt
I've played NC on 3 machines I built myself.
....
(i'm on 756k ntl cable)
I personally think a lot of the problems are down to net code. It may be that your router or whatever you have linking your machines to the net (if you even use something like that) could be the problem.
I used to have sync errors at login, loads of fatal runtime errors etc, then I changed my router/firewall software from Wingate to Coyote Linux and suddenly I had very few fatals and my sync times were reduced from 20-30 seconds down to about 2 secs per sync.
I've recently moved home, and now I just have a cable modem connected directly to my PC and it's the same, very few fatals, and very low sync time.
Compared to other internet games, there seems to be big differences in the way neocron works in terms of netcode. (Something to do with various things being calculated on your client, rather than the server first - I believe).
If you connect these machines directly to the net, you may notice some improvement..
Might as well join in...
Athlon XP 1500+
512MB RAM (266MHz)
ATi Radeon 9000 Pro 128 MB
I'm on a 56k and fatal at most once per day. I've also rarely noticed any lag, I do lag on everything just after 11pm at night but I get nothing at all at this time so it's more than likely my ISP. Some days the servers do lag badly and everyone on TS notices, but I find it tends to last at most 2-3 days and only really happens once a month.
I originally played on
my pc -> cable modem -> UBR -> internet
then went to
my pc -> router -> modem -> internet
No noticable changes.
One thing, pc #2 is on the same chain as pc #3, #2 can idle for hours without black synch, #3 cant.
I once played a beta of another MMORPG and everytime I crashed and logged on afterwards I got a dialog window to fill in the missing infos about the crash. These infos together with the (error) log was sent then to the developers. You also had the choice of ignoring this and just go straight into the game again. Personally I think thats a good idea, I doubt many players will send in crash-reports themself ...
Having played some other MMORPGs, all from small companies ... they all fight against bugs. Try to code something like this yourself and you will see how tricky it can be to get it running at least, despite all the possible bugs. The more bugs get reported (with full detail), the easier it will be for the devs to fix them. And maybe we get some more feedback from the devs in regard to bugs? Seems to me like a one-sided communication :(
Jesterthegreat
25-11-03, 17:23
Originally posted by Spex
Seems to me like a one-sided communication :(
its no sided communication.
no one sends bug reports, coders dont give status on bug fixes.
thats just the way it is it would seem
players have the arrogance to refuse to send in bug reports - and then complain about bugs
I've sent bug reports in before, and I just get told that they know about the bug and are working on it. :\
Promethius
25-11-03, 20:57
Originally posted by Lareolan
Oh yeah, I mean Blizzard's Diablo 2 team was huge! I mean they had a whole 12 people including artists, modelers, musicians and coders. (I think there were 3 or 4 coders for the whole project). And yet the game was complete and working well, never crashing AT release time. What more, any bugs/exploits that were discovered were promptly removed. The abundance of items is incredible compare to that in Neocron. Characters actually look a lot more unique even though they don't get to pick their faces and the player model is fixed to what class you chose. The variety comes simply from weapon and armor. More items come out all the time as well as new patches to stop exploits. Now what is the difference between Blizzard's team of 12 and KK's team of 12? Is it because of funding? Blizzard has more money, true, but how is their team of 12 different than KK's team of 12? Finally must I remind you that Diablo/Diablo2 are NOT a pay to play service and yet Blizzard gives a lot more continued FREE support for the game than KK does. Even though from commercial point of view, all they need you to do is buy the box. Then not play the game as the online service is free, and as such generates a pure loss for the company by running the BNet servers and paying for the bandwidth. So why do they keep supporting the game? Keep making new patches even though there are no noticable bugs in the game? Why do they continue to release new content and keep people interested in playing the rather limited game? When you can answer THAT, then KK might be able to move on from being a Mickey Mouse two-bit operation and become a real company. Until then I cannot take KK seriously, and I seriously doubt any serious publisher will be able to take them seriously either.
Well blizzard has many other games.....Neocron is more complex than Diablo wher as diablo u can shoot and pick up things....WHile neocron there is a whole wide range of things to do.
Also Blizzard may have some of th best 12 peeps for this while neocron has a lower budget and cannot aford peeps like them.
Either way i still think there should be a movement to fix FRE's. Possible a thread that a GM posts an email addres to send em to?
Being on the test server a lot, ive had my fair share of crashes... probably more than anyone. Then again I do remember back in beta4 when they had the absurdly nasty crashes, such as the outdoor hardlock crash where your whole system quits responding and you have to force it to reboot. Aaah, how lovely...
I have actually been tyring to get the devs to setup a error log submission system that way these fatal crashes can be addressed directly, but talking to Reakktor is like talking to a brick wall. I have sent in a few proposals to various people that can change the way they deal with bugs into a more efficient manner so fatal crashes can be addressed first along with an organized feature list for versions to come.
All I got in response so far is a letter from the GM staff saying ill be added to a list of people on the test server to contact for testing. Since then I have gone elsewhere to help out games in need of such services.
If Martin actually messaged me asking about these proposals I would be happy to pass them to him, but I am pretty much finished with any relations to Reakktor for now.
Hope Neocron comes back someday, its pretty obvious they don't care. If they did care, they would be showing they are trying and then i'd give them credit.
Originally posted by Tank!
Being on the test server a lot, ive had my fair share of crashes... probably more than anyone. Then again I do remember back in beta4 when they had the absurdly nasty crashes, such as the outdoor hardlock crash where your whole system quits responding and you have to force it to reboot. Aaah, how lovely...
You mean it's gone now? How come I get that one at least once a day? And that's on top of the "normal" FREs, synchs, etc... The stuff we all know and hate but Martin apparently is ignorant of their existance (Or pretends to be ignorant).
Originally posted by Tank!
If Martin actually messaged me asking about these proposals I would be happy to pass them to him, but I am pretty much finished with any relations to Reakktor for now.
Hope Neocron comes back someday, its pretty obvious they don't care. If they did care, they would be showing they are trying and then i'd give them credit.
Not likely, they really do not care. I mean look at it this way. Martin came on the board on a REALLY messy thread about account hacking and said they were doing us a HUGE favor by spending like 5 minutes of their time to look at something on the servers on a Saturday. Ooh! We should all bow down. I mean, we pay for a service that is 24/7, hence somehow Saturdays and Sundays are sacred and if something happens to the servers we're supposed to wait until Monday for a fix. Does that sound like someone actually cares about anything? (Other than money from the diehard fanatics and fanboys).
Originally posted by Lareolan
The stuff we all know and hate but Martin apparently is ignorant of their existance (Or pretends to be ignorant).Well then start submitting those bug reports. You said earlier in this thread that it would be better if there were stack dumps to send in? Well look in your Neocron folder for "Callstack1-4.log" and "Error1-4.log" files and send them in to bugs@neocron.com. Only with this information do the devs have any chance of solving your issues. The issues that cause FRE's are being nailed down steadily in any case - witness the latest retail patch notes.
Not likely, they really do not care...The rest of your post is actually just plain offensive. KK are restricted by Level 1's T's and C's as to when the hardware itself can be maintained and as for the software side of things both KK and the volunteers work hideous hours to keep things running as smoothly as possible.
N
Originally posted by g0rt
3) Went to get some sympathy at the CA HQ. I don't think there is a single place in a single MMORPG that can be more bugged then the CA HQ. Honestly, you go there to get sympathy, and you see it ALL. Guards stuck in the wall. Secretaries spawning in the wall. Secretaries spawning on top of each other. Secretaries floating through the roof when they get hit. Secretaries spawning ontop of the door switches. Invisable damage being taken off randomly. Secretaries getting drilled with 4 clips of a cs yet mystically still full HP. Guards getting stuck and walking around inside the lifts. I can go on...in all honesty I can go on and find more bugs, but im not looking to write an essay. This is just a sad, sad state of NPC AI. It must be fixed.
ONOZ!!! That demostrate that Lion Reeza iS TeH eViL!!!! (o_O)
People floating around, passing through walls and getting huge amounts of damage!!! Repent!!! The Antineochrist is here!!!! LETS ALL MOVE TO THE DOME OF YORK (when it becomes available... ejem)
Note: This apocaliptic advert is sponsored by Black Dragon faction and all DoY friends (n_n)_v
At least when NC crashes it takes maybe 10 seconds to get back in because theres vertually NO loading times at all, only the few seconds it takes to connect and syncronize with the servers.
When something like SWG or planetside crashes (which is does frequently to most people, not just FREs, but total freezing of the game needing you to restart on win 98, or call up the task manager and kill the process on XP, not to mention all the second pauses/freezes as it loads all the players etc in city areas), then it takes about 10 minutes to clear its crappy memory leaky code from your ram before you can start to log in. THEN it starts to load the map files etc.
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