View Full Version : Big change - Poll
QuantumDelta
20-11-03, 22:56
SD and I have been turning this thought over for a while.
Most of you know I am a PPU these days for my main alt so please don't start up with the "not thought through" "biased" crap.... think about it for a little while.
With this idea, ALL PvP damage across the board would be lower for all classes in proportion and PvM would be reduced in terms of damage on runners too.
This means fights would be close to the same in terms of time.
This means MC5 and Chaos Caves would still be managable.
What this idea will do, in one simple step;
This idea will force characters to rely on their own NATURAL DEFENCE, without "Mega Nerfing" Anyone's defence, and, this translates to mean; Classes revert to their naturally non-teamed 1on1 balanced state (excluding a little APU energy damage tweak and a little tank AoE damage tweak.... and a Spy Defence tweak...).
The idea, is simple.
Make all Shelters, and Deflectors, SELF CAST ONLY.
Before you whine, please think it through.
Yes, Tanks wont have better defence and offence than PEs at op wars anymore...sorry, they'll be combat balanced....oops...
Yes, APUs wont be carrying PPU God Mode with them.
Yes, Spies wont be benefitting from uber defence either... but they aren't meant to be close range fighters really...
Basically that will mean all classes become equal again in op wars.
PPUs will still be able to do EVERYTHING else they currently can do, including the same strength holy heal.
BUT, the other classes without holy buffs, would be equal against eachother..
Otherthread was meant to be a poll but I went AFK during posting it and forgot to tick the button when I got back *slaps self*
hmm...some good ideas...very good ideas...
i would like to see spies revert to b long range kilers, and tank up close, just how it shud b, i mean my PE is a sniper, but he'll never b as good a sniper as a spy can b, but if what u r proposing was to go in then it would mean my PE would b able to take more of a bashing than a spy, jsut how it shud b, so my sniper can switch between sniping and assult...
Psycho_Soldier
20-11-03, 23:02
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Tanks wont have better defence and offence than PEs at op wars anymore...sorry, they'll be combat balanced....oops...
How is that "combat balanced", explain please. That seems to be pretty much the way it is currently though. APUs TBH I think would own at op wars if this was to happen (not that they dont already), they have range, and speed, lots of damage, and of course, no rectile.
still an APU can kill a tank very easily...
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 23:04
Originally posted by rob444
still an APU can kill a tank very easily...
O_o
You mean because apus are supposed to deal the most damage? Like KK said?
Hell, if it's too high KK can lower it or balance it. But that's not really the issue ATM. APU damage isn't something that CAN'T be changed.
Hi. I support this idea completely for several reasons
1.APU/PPU team would be much better balanced. And they wouldn't be able to take on 7-9 people without dying, like i've done before. That's unbalanced. Not that they were the only team to do that....
2.Tanks won't be outshined by buffed apus now. Tanks would have kickass defense and high health. Of course i do think they'll need something else to help them out and increase their support role in team battle. Without buffs, a damage and/or rof increase of AOE(and it should leave a "barrel" type of affect upon the target) would be extremely useful in op wars.
3.Snipers would be much more deadly(well maybe not to pes :rolleyes: ). They could cripple the apu easily and/or finish him off because he'll always be unfluffed.
4.PPU's "importance" will be toned down to a balanced level. If you balance parashock and res, then that could be pretty much be it.
PPus will STILL influence pvp more than any other class. And will still be important, but just to a more balanced level.
This is really a kick ass idea. And I think it could really balance things without nerfing ppus into oblivion.
I know there's some other reasons I'm for this idea, but I just can't remember. Just please think it through.
Originally posted by rob444
still an APU can kill a tank very easily... A tank can also kill an unbuffed APU with ease.
Or you can just decrease the effectiveness of shelter/deflector/heal by like 35%. Remove anti buff since ppus won't be as hard to kill then. Then holy buffs people will get will still be deceased by 50% making there holy buffs not as stong as now. PPUs will still get to s/d people it just won't be as strong and they also won't be as godlike.
QuantumDelta
20-11-03, 23:05
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
How is that "combat balanced", explain please. That seems to be pretty much the way it is currently though. It is, but tanks at op wars benefit far, far greater than Pes ever could from holy buffs...so this would be a nerf for tanks vs pes at op fights(to a balanced level...), but would heavily boost tanks vs apus at op fights...(to a balanced level..)
like I said it kinda balances everything...
Rob, reskill your tank.
It's not hard to make a tank good to fight a monk.
Anyway... this idea only helps to fix that problem in a major way...
edit;
Pete, I know ya play a PPU ...so think about running around in a fight where you don't have to S/D anyone but yourself...
You can heal/anti*/rezz etc the way you did before, but you don't have to S/D everyone every two minutes...
Isn't it appealing? at all? :p
Richard Adregen
20-11-03, 23:05
I really like this idea... this seems to me like one of the few ideas these days that are actually thought through and may be effective...
RA.
Doc Holliday
20-11-03, 23:07
so this means that ppus are gonna be more tied up with healing and rebuffing people after rez than actually running round sheltering the shit out of everything that moves. it also means apus are gonna suck balls as without a ppu buff they are next to sweet fa on the damage they can take. a couple stacks of fire maybe off of a grim before they die. which inadvertently means all the ppu does is keep the sanctum or holy heal running on the apu so as to make him pretty hard to kill. how will that balance pvp. just means people die a bit faster sure. that will help as once the person is dead u can move on to the next target. how ever a skilled force can do that with ease no matter the ppu(s) as u apply a spy ( not the class but a figure of speech ) on to the ppu to keep him occupied. most ppus bork and run at this unless the ppu is very skilled in which case u get a monk with anti buff and wave that about. what benefit is this to prove in pvp QD. can u explain a little more as to why?? this is a good plan. no offence but considering usual posts it seems to lack clear explaination of the benefits its gonna offer.
ooops. the other posts appeared at time of posting. i see where your going. mmmmm. not bad. dunno if it would work. test server?
I kinda like this idea but fights wouldnt last as long. Also APU damage would need to be nerfed down a bit.
WHAT I MENT WITH APU TAKING A TANK EASILY IS:
RANGE, a tank cant fucking aim and shoot with a cs on range, an apu can, there is no reticule, add a reticule for apu's and we are all happy and keep the frickin shields alone..........!!!¤%
Hm, I think overall it works for me. What it means for PvP is fine by me. I don't like the PvM nerf, but I could deal with it. (I mean, if this is primarily a PvP game, as KK has said, why the long ass boring leveling treadmill/timesink?). This would also mean removing the group shelter/deflector spells wouldn't it? I don't know how many people use them anyways, but hey, it'd make the damn scroll bar on the PPU vendor shorter. Which is good.
Anyways, Which as much as people bitch about PPUs being overpowered and being able to extend their godhood to others, this sounds decent. It's actually a solution that doesn't nerf the strength of the shelter itself (PEs and drug addict Spies rejoice). In theory, PvP would be more skill based as you wouldn't be able to just stand there getting hammered because you have PPU shielding. All a PPU could really do is heal you and rebuff you when your buffs run out, and resurrect you until the resurrect nerfs kills that.
Though, the potential downside is time spent in actual PvP would, on average, be reduced. Without PPU shielding, people will tend to die sooner than if they had the PPU shielding them. In other words, the people would start complaining again about PvP not lasting long enough because you die too soon. So it would have to be a sacrificial choice: Do you want longer PvP with harder to kill people, or do you want PvP to be more about balance and skill?
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 23:16
Originally posted by rob444
WHAT I MENT WITH APU TAKING A TANK EASILY IS:
RANGE, a tank cant fucking aim and shoot with a cs on range, an apu can, there is no reticule, add a reticule for apu's and we are all happy and keep the frickin shields alone..........!!!¤%
Range is already being nerfed for apus to an appropriate range.
Secondly, sure apus can(and should IMO) get a reticle. But that won't solve the problem of monkacron in the least. QD is trying to tackle THAT problem.
Originally posted by Nexxy
I kinda like this idea but fights wouldnt last as long. Also APU damage would need to be nerfed down a bit.
Which is why all PvP damage should be reduced by a certain amount(whatever the devs feel is comfortable). And maybe APU offence a bit more as well.
Like I told QD, this idea can't happen if APUs keep doing the damage they are doing now.
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
so this means that ppus are gonna be more tied up with healing and rebuffing people after rez than actually running round sheltering the shit out of everything that moves.
What?
PPUs already res and rebuff alot. They'll do less of that here, well maybe a bit more ressing. But like QD said, reducing all around PvP damage can alleiviate people dying to fast. Don't runners have a "natural" defense equal to 50 star mobs? I'm sure KK can UP the "natural" defense of a runner.
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
it also means apus are gonna suck balls as without a ppu buff they are next to sweet fa on the damage they can take.
For PvP or PvM?
For PvP, hell no they won't suck. Holy heal still kicks ass. If apus can kick ass 1v1 then they'll still kick ass here. Don't forget, they'll still deal the highest damage.
And they'll get high health wtih ppu buffs. Trust me, even if I don't get shelter or deflect I ALWAYS make sure to ask my ppu to give me melee+hazard.
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
a couple stacks of fire maybe off of a grim before they die.
They'll have to be more careful. If I can solo hunt on my apu, i'm sure apus can survive without buffs.
remember heat 3+holy heal= uber!
It'll also mean that PvM won't be a CAKE WALK like it is now, with a ppu.
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
how will that balance pvp.
It'll balance the monk problem, because ppu's role won't be as "influential" as it is now.
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
can u explain a little more as to why?? this is a good plan. no offence but considering usual posts it seems to lack clear explaination of the benefits its gonna offer.
Good question. At least you're keeping an open mind.
:angel:
Originally posted by Sorin
Do you want longer PvP with harder to kill people, or do you want PvP to be more about balance and skill?
Why not both? As I said before, you could reduce all PvP damage by a certain amount, or increase the natural defense of all runners. Or give all runners a specific health boost, or or or or etc.......... :p
Originally posted by Nexxy
I kinda like this idea but fights wouldnt last as long. Also APU damage would need to be nerfed down a bit. You think so? With an APU not having shelter/deflect I would say it's a pretty damn even playing field.
Personally I love this idea. Just the thought of not having to s/d every person in my team is enough to cream my pants. I think there is definitely plenty of other things to do too. As was mentioned I would be able to focus on things like the anti's while still being able to give boosts and heals while also DBing and parashocking the enemy. Its not like taking away target s/d from a PPU will suddenly make them useless. There are plenty of other tasks.
I think if people weren't so sick of monkacron they would be in an uproar about something like this. But now it really makes some sense. (As long as the damage output of certain mobs in decreased a bit). Geez the more I think about it the more I realize doing this would probably bring the game to as great a balance as its ever had.
Dribble Joy
20-11-03, 23:18
I like this, people will die faster and the combat will be more balanced, 1vs1 tank/pe/apu is quite balanced (though random dmg needs sorting) This will bring this balance to the OP fights.
Originally posted by rob444
WHAT I MENT WITH APU TAKING A TANK EASILY IS:
RANGE, a tank cant fucking aim and shoot with a cs on range, an apu can, there is no reticule, add a reticule for apu's and we are all happy and keep the frickin shields alone..........!!!¤%
APU aiming is an issue, yes. but remember the new tank rares, the plasma wave is going to give tanks a real use in OP wars.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Don't runners have a "natural" defense equal to 50 star mobs? Wow! There's 50 star mobs in the game?! :P
Feel free to hit me with your preferred weapon now :)
QuantumDelta
20-11-03, 23:19
Originally posted by Doc Holliday
so this means that ppus are gonna be more tied up with healing and rebuffing people after rez than actually running round sheltering the shit out of everything that moves. it also means apus are gonna suck balls as without a ppu buff they are next to sweet fa on the damage they can take. a couple stacks of fire maybe off of a grim before they die. which inadvertently means all the ppu does is keep the sanctum or holy heal running on the apu so as to make him pretty hard to kill. how will that balance pvp. just means people die a bit faster sure. that will help as once the person is dead u can move on to the next target. how ever a skilled force can do that with ease no matter the ppu(s) as u apply a spy ( not the class but a figure of speech ) on to the ppu to keep him occupied. most ppus bork and run at this unless the ppu is very skilled in which case u get a monk with anti buff and wave that about. what benefit is this to prove in pvp QD. can u explain a little more as to why?? this is a good plan. no offence but considering usual posts it seems to lack clear explaination of the benefits its gonna offer.
My appologies.
Generally speaking, all classes, have recently (game life speaking), been rebalanced to "dueling" they are, within close-to-acceptable limits, balanced against eachother in 1on1 situations.
A Good APU CON Setup can actually get close to Tank resists (all round) ....but, lower HP, which is fixed by buffs ;)
APU = Tank = PE = Spy.
This is a great formula for fighting, most people agree these classes should, when purely combat skilled, be equal in combat in varied ways.
This balance is somewhat close to reality actually...
Until you introduce the PPU.
PPU is not 1on1 balanced based.
It's team vs team balanced based.
This means, that Classes become unbalanced when PPUs are around, this happens.
APU > Tank > Spy > PE (unless the PE relies on his own buffs combat independance pushes him up to above the Spy... but not particularly close to the tank, and the tank is a long way from the APU...)
With weapons at their current damage levels, however, this would mean fights would be very short.
Because, over time, constitution and armor configurations have become more polished, and people's defence has become more total, and complete.
To compensate (even though you may not have noticed without really looking very closely at this for a long time) damage, of weapons for PvP and PvM has been increased over time, partly because of this, and partly because of the PPU.
A System wide nerf of PvP and PvM Damage (meaning, mobs can be set back to close to their old damage levels, when a tank could run up and melee a grim chaser to death, not quite that silly, but closer to those old levels), and reduction in APU damage, HC, MC(...err...), RCL(...err..), PC, RC, damage as well.
Fights wouldn't be over, and PvM wouldn't be impossible.
Basically, this idea brings neocron into a slightly simpler position in terms of balancing.
This is because you only measure an opponents _NATURAL_ defence and _NATURAL_ offence not the defence you gain in a team.
This is all about dealing with the imbalance PPUs have created in fights. (You saw what I did with Sam.. that's mostly because of holy s/d on him, that was an unfair fight situation we should've lost ... we almost did, but I hope you can see the problem if you replace Sam's PE with an APU and repeat?)
because of the reduction of PvM damage, and PvP damage, nothing much from terms of the "straight fighting" perspective will have changed, op fights will last about the same amount of time, PvM will be just as easy/difficult as before.
Just without APU having masssssssssive defence and massssssssssive offence at the same time.
It would rely on natural defence and holy heal only...
Close to what the PPUs job originally should have been, imo...
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
but remember the new tank rares, the plasma wave is going to give tanks a real use in OP wars.
Still a damn reticule..................................................... APU's just need to point and click and even when they have nerfed the range it's huge anyway..
Syntax-Error
20-11-03, 23:26
Totally 100% fully and utterly AGREE
KK hasnt done too bad a job at balancing the class's
Infact ill go as far as too say there VERY close to been balanced
UNTILL a PPU is thrown in. then the whole balance is thrown out the window bcos a PPU unbalances the Defence/attack of each class.
Hell. perhaps if APUs got spells like weakness and shit to lower a runners defence and attack.. but well they dont so a PPU still FAR unbalances the class's
DO this. make a PPU work like this and im my eyes they will be perfect
QuantumDelta
20-11-03, 23:26
Originally posted by rob444
Still a damn reticule..................................................... APU's just need to point and click and even when they have nerfed the range it's huge anyway..
Get constructive or find another thread to whine about monks in.
Tank = PE = Spy = APU
Balance is something to be addressed once this is complete, because it really is, only a case of fine tuning.
Yeesh.
edit;
Syn - close to perfect, but still requiring some tweakage ;)
Trust me...it's all part of the plan :)
This is a step, a big one, but just a step.
Dribble Joy
20-11-03, 23:27
The rare wave will fully hit before the rectilce is half way apparently and it's range is teh uber.
I would like it if apu range (at least on the HL type weapons :D) should be around pistol range, close combat and high dmg.
Holy heal, lvl3 buffs and rezzing will still give PPUs great value in fights. just not the insane lvl that they have at the moment.
Oh, and remove parashock, lets this PVP game be based on skill please.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Pete, I know ya play a PPU ...so think about running around in a fight where you don't have to S/D anyone but yourself...
You can heal/anti*/rezz etc the way you did before, but you don't have to S/D everyone every two minutes...
Isn't it appealing? at all? :p
Well, not only Pete. I Play a PPU on two servers (near capped on Saturn and mid level on Uranus) and let me tell you how SEX it would be not to reshield people all the time. When I have to PPU for someone, or a group of someones, it's almost exactly like clocking in and going to work. It's not easy. I mean with everyone running around like raped apes, you have to use PvP tactics against your own teammates for the purpose of getting a reliable lock on them long enough to get a shelter/deflector cast (well, and heal too). If everyone is buffed and decently healthy, I don't get a break to just stand there and watch because I have to constantly reshield everyone as they run out. Ugh. It would RULE to only have to worry about buffing and healing. Woo.
Ok I wont talk about the unbalance in APU's anymore in this thread, then I will bring up what PPU's are there for. To heal, shield and resurrect allies. And if you cant live with it, tough shit...
Besides, this thread is a PPU nerf thread, so why not bring APU up..
got nothing much to add to the thread other than to say good idea you got here
I love this idea except for the part about increasing everyones
defence, combat takes too damn long already, it takes over 100
bullets to kill someone.. i mean.. wtf? o_O
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
edit;
Pete, I know ya play a PPU ...so think about running around in a fight where you don't have to S/D anyone but yourself...
You can heal/anti*/rezz etc the way you did before, but you don't have to S/D everyone every two minutes...
Isn't it appealing? at all? :p
I don't have any problem with this. I've suggested making s/d selfcastable before, while fighting with shadow in some thread about ppus months ago. But no one seemed to like it.
Dribble Joy
20-11-03, 23:38
hehehe yeah, just reduce mob dmg.
boost pistols
Syntax-Error
20-11-03, 23:38
I think if you bring the APU HP up a little enough to take some more dmg. perhaps give the tanks a little defence boost (as i think they shud be better than PE 1v1 close combat.. it makes sence)
But it shud be
Attack :
APU > tank = spy > PE
Defence :
PPU > Tank = PE > APU = Spy
call me mad.. i like that (you notice im my eyes PPU do NO dmg (worth talkin about)
Dribble Joy
20-11-03, 23:39
erm.... no
Tank defence = PE defence? yet Tank offence > PE offence?
no
//edit: OT outside of a duel environment PEs rarely are at thier maximum defensive performance. Tanks need no preperation to speak of, PE must spend a good while to lay on buffs and drugs that will run out at some point, while the tank does not run this risk.
Give tanks higher defence and PEs will become the scum of the earth.
Syntax-Error
20-11-03, 23:40
Why not.. a bloody great tank in PA takes more
a bloody great gun dose more
but a nice rifle out ranges. and is FAR more accurate
QuantumDelta
20-11-03, 23:43
We're not all riflers...
Dribble Joy
20-11-03, 23:44
Balance my dear syn.
Tank defence is higher than that of PEs before buffs. PEs rely totally on thier PSi skills to be EQUAL to tanks. That's the main issue here. Battle eqaulity and BALANCE.
That and tanks have 50% more hp than PEs. Add a CS and a PE has to REALLY work to beat him.
Stay on topic peoples. :D
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 23:57
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Why not.. a bloody great tank in PA takes more
a bloody great gun dose more
but a nice rifle out ranges. and is FAR more accurate
Tanks shouldn't get defense boost, but a boost to their support role in team battle. Well at least IMO.
Something like powerhouse AOE that leaves barrel liek effect on the ground. And it would be more useful without people being buffed.
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
I think if you bring the APU HP up a little enough to take some more dmg. perhaps give the tanks a little defence boost (as i think they shud be better than PE 1v1 close combat.. it makes sence)
But it shud be
Attack :
APU > tank = spy > PE
Defence :
PPU > Tank = PE > APU = Spy
call me mad.. i like that (you notice im my eyes PPU do NO dmg (worth talkin about)
No APU defense shouldn't be raised IMO.
What I suggest is 3 levels of an elemental barrier. This would lower offense and raise defense accordingly. It could be used for safety to sit back and get healed by a ppu, or to escape if you're alone. That way they won't be mincemeat traveling alone.
Originally posted by Rade
I love this idea except for the part about increasing everyones
defence, combat takes too damn long already, it takes over 100
bullets to kill someone.. i mean.. wtf? o_O
:lol:
I love you Rade.
Originally posted by J. Folsom
Wow! There's 50 star mobs in the game?! :P
Feel free to hit me with your preferred weapon now :)
ROFL
EDIT: Let's get back on topic. :)
I wanna hear some more responses about why this is or isn't a good idea.
Id say yes to this, as everytime i ask for buffs im positivly sure the ppu is mad at me asking for shelters the 20th time and wants to stab me in the face if he met me in real life.
Also vote, just a reminder.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 00:05
Originally posted by Duder
Id say yes to this, as everytime i ask for buffs im positivly sure the ppu is mad at me asking for shelters the 20th time and wants to stab me in the face if he met me in real life.
Also vote, just a reminder. don't you fekkin know it :D
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:05
Rate teh thread you must.
Edit, even as a PE playing mini PPU (wee PEs more usefullness in OP fights thereof!!!) it can get very frustrating, damn apus needing healing after shooting decayed horrors, ffs weaklings :p
I see ~*Stars now !!!111
http://upload.houseboat-racing.biz/files/emot-zerg.gif
Wee too bad KK wont do anything, they are busy talking to their publisher, all 4 of them!!
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Balance my dear syn.
Tank defence is higher than that of PEs before buffs. PEs rely totally on thier PSi skills to be EQUAL to tanks. That's the main issue here. Battle eqaulity and BALANCE.
That and tanks have 50% more hp than PEs. Add a CS and a PE has to REALLY work to beat him.
Stay on topic peoples. :D
You are forgetting the fact that tanks are a pure combat class, while PEs aren't. PEs can use stealth, can poke all TLs, hack OPs, drive all VHCs, construct and research.
You might use your PE only for combat, but they are meant to be the JOAT class.
Of course I'm not saying that nothing should be able to beat a tank in 1 vs 1. But tanks should definitely have an advantage in close range combat, after all that's all they can really do. If a rifle spy or PE starts sniping a tank or APU in an open field, what can the tank/APU do about it? Not much. They can look around frantically trying to spot the sniper, by which time it is usually too late (and if the tank does find the sniper, 9 times out of 10 the sniper will stealth, move somewhere else and finish the job).
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:08
Grr Lethy don't take this off course. :p
They already have an advantage, they dont need buffs to operate at maximum, they can fight right out of the box, and they have a high damage output.
greendonkeyuk
21-11-03, 00:09
Would it be a REALLY BAD thing to give more access to spells for the three "non-psi" classes?
I mean ok if everyone is self-buffed then perhaps if pes had access to heat/haz 1? Spies shelter? maybe tanks would get.... basic resist 2?
Having played both classes extensively (pe and tank) i do feel that pistol pes and rifle pes should be dealt with separately. The same with spies. Pistolers in general would need to be looked at, as they cannot compete with a tank when theyre unbuffed. They get chewed up. Yeah everyone says go rifle blah.... no i want pistols. i chose pistols and im happy with em. The problem is as i said a pes buffs are his life line. would it greatly fuck things up if casting time was increased ACROSS the board. If we dont have ppu buffs any more thats gonna change a lot of pvp for sure, the good people will start to win and the suckers will lose. I for one would like to know that im going to be able to have my buffs recast when i need them, jus this time its by me; not the ppu.
Im not askin for ppu RoF here, nowhere near, but a small increase would be nice considering that ppus role will be scaled down somewhat, id like to think that self-cast buffs would be more reliable than currently.
I really like the ideas im seeing here, its taken some thought and some influential backing from some intelligent minds to bring it to the forefront of our forum lives. I like where its going personally. I think there will be plenty more issues that crop up in the future but if we as a community can put down our nerf sticks and look at class balance from a multifaceted perception we can get somewhere with it. To be truly effective we would need to forget our class-bias, all the onoz my apu pwnz joo bullshit as im tired of that shite. Credit goes to all the guys who've contributed constructively in this thread (you know who you are).
Im rambling now so ill cut this short, Great IDEA! 5 stars.
Omg JOO R UBAR!!!!!1111oneoneone (for all those who dont understand the above) :lol:
Edit:
one bad thing, pvm, this would REALLY fuck up mc5...... :angel:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Grr Lethy don't take this off course. :p
Oh yeah. I'm all in favour of making shields self-cast.
In fact I'm all in favour of the removal of PPUs.
In fact I'm all in favour of the total removal of monks :p
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:12
Exactly, PEs are only balanced with tanks when up thier eyeballs on buffs/drugs. Without they are decidedly weaker. Rifle PE who want to snipe have to forego tradeskills anyway. Pistol PEs can tradeskill but aren't as dangerous in PvP in any situation other than a deul.
sorry SD
this idea is too radical, wont work forget about it ppl....
this would do nothing to pvp since then you really need one ppu for every apu and apu/ppu vs tank/ppu is not really fair... apu team will win if evenly skilled....
a lone tank cant stop a ppu from rezzing... thats a fact...
would still be monkacron
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 00:14
Originally posted by deac
a lone tank cant stop a ppu from rezzing... thats a fact...
would still be monkacron
One Step.
What's more is, after next patch, tanks sure as hell will be able to make a PPU think twice from rezzing.
I can already kill PPUs on my tank so I don't really care for that comment :p
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:15
Don't be so bloody negative. With these changes a good team will be able to remove the combat chars and then concentrate fire on the PPUs, which are defeatable with enough guns pointed at them.
//edit: how on earth can you kill a PPU solo? PPUS can out heal every wepon in the game, unless you're tl3 healing him :p
greendonkeyuk
21-11-03, 00:22
you gotta have negative to show you how good the positive is dribb.
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:23
like chocolate and poo?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
like chocolate and poo?
as long as you dont put them to close togeather8|
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:26
Indeed, take those poo ideas and put them in the bin that has DoY and the remain of the chinese i had last night in it.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 00:27
Yeah.. you might forget which is which :eek:
Anyhow..
i agree.. this wud own. and make neocron what it shud be.. but will really piss off some ppl...
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
//edit: how on earth can you kill a PPU solo? PPUS can out heal every wepon in the game, unless you're tl3 healing him :p
Maybe becuase PPUs aren't as godlike as some people say? Theres a lot of people out there that like to focus and base all there arguements about PPUs on the few uber ones, when a lot of PPUs aren't that hard to kill.
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:28
trying to kill PPUs with a judge isn't a very clever idea in the first place anyway.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:30
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
i agree.. this wud own. and make neocron what it shud be.. but will really piss off some ppl...
I don't see why it would piss off PPUs that much. They would still be important and useful.
And it won't bring down their defense.
An idea worth testing on the Test Server.
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 00:32
People would think it's crap because they can't think about the way the game works. They also don't read the forums and wouldn't see the reasons behind them.
Psycho Killa
21-11-03, 00:35
Well something needs to be done thats for sure.
This seems like a good step.
Though the next step should involve making different weapons better on different people. Im sick of seeing every class with the same fucking weapon.
For the record my main char is a ppu and i still support this step.
I suggested making S/D self castable only months ago, I've seen the same suggestion several other times.
"When ppu's are nerfed, you will certainly find another subset suddenly becoming "overpowered".
That said.
PPU's group casting holy shelter, holy deflector, and casting hazz/psi3 etc also makes them overpowered.
Remove parashock and ress and they will still be overpowered, if not quite so much as now.
S/D should be self castable only, reducing ppu's to ress, heal and DB in pvp, rather then buffing everyone and shocking everyone."
Regardless of what you think, other people do have more then two braincells to rub together.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:40
I'm not quite sure i understood your post Celt, could you rephrase?
Originally posted by Zanathos
An idea worth testing on the Test Server.
EXACTLY.
At the very least, it's worth testing on the test server.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I'm not quite sure i understood your post Celt, could you rephrase?
It's an idea that's been posted many many times since ubér hybrids were nerfed.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:51
Originally posted by Celt
It's an idea that's been posted many many times since ubér hybrids were nerfed.
Are you in support of it?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Exactly, PEs are only balanced with tanks when up thier eyeballs on buffs/drugs. Without they are decidedly weaker. Rifle PE who want to snipe have to forego tradeskills anyway. Pistol PEs can tradeskill but aren't as dangerous in PvP in any situation other than a deul.
sorry SD
Not trying to take the thread OT here, but it's not like casting a shelter once every couple of minutes is a serious hassle. PEs are only balanced in a duel with tanks when they drug. When they're not dueling, PEs just stealth merrily away, heal, recast shelter and deflector, and come back to finish off the tank they just left at half health.
Back on topic, I was against this until now, because I felt that PPUs would be further isolated from the other classes in terms of defence. But now that I think about it, that's irrelevant, so I'm all for it. :p
sounds good...
voted and rated.... two thumbs up...
'nuff said..:p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Are you in support of it?
Of course, as I said, I suggested(and that's what the quote was) several months ago.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 00:53
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Well something needs to be done thats for sure.
This seems like a good step.
Though the next step should involve making different weapons better on different people. Im sick of seeing every class with the same fucking weapon.
For the record my main char is a ppu and i still support this step.
Your PM box is full.
Most people seem to support this idea when it's been thought through.
My point of posting this was to repackadge and polish some of what other people said, and making it more ....workable.
Psycho Killa
21-11-03, 00:55
There will have to be some tweaks i just thought of...
Such as the rare kami.
Without buffs it will probably take out just about anyone in one shot. Which yes is unbalanced even 2 hits is kind of iffy.
On another not OMG UNDEF STILL PLAYS.
P.S. Emptied my pm box but i only had 5 in there in the first place o_O
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:55
Originally posted by Celt
Of course, as I said, I suggested(and that's what the quote was) several months ago.
Cool.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Without buffs it will probably take out just about anyone in one shot. Which yes is unbalanced even 2 hits is kind of iffy.
Onoz, that means both droners on each server will be deadly.
:p
OK, can't be arsed to read the whole of the thread and my dad is breathing down my neck so I shall make this brief:
Y.E.S
Good first step.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 00:59
Originally posted by Judge
my dad is breathing down my neck .
Why is...............you know what nevermind. O_o
Originally posted by Duder
Id say yes to this, as everytime i ask for buffs im positivly sure the ppu is mad at me asking for shelters the 20th time and wants to stab me in the face if he met me in real life.
Hehe you have no idea how right you are. Whenever some one types in"s/d" I always wanna say "I'll shelter you when I damn well feel like you whiny little bitch!!!" *ahem* Especially if its something like in the Chaos Caves and I'm the only PPU for like 7 people. "I'm sorry I'm a little too busy healing people to worry whether or not your sorry ass has shelter/deflect on." Being a PPU pretty much makes you hate everyone. haha.
But seriously I think making shields self cast only would definitely pump some much needed life into the soul of Neocron PvP. I usually don't even fight monks any more. There's just not much point to it sometimes.
This is a Nerf thread........right?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
My point of posting this was to repackadge and polish some of what other people said, and making it more ....workable.
What exactly about "make s/d self castable only" have you repackaged, polished and made more workable?
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 01:11
NO!!!!
It's a balancing thread.
You two, don't start this again.
Originally posted by Celt
What exactly about "make s/d self castable only" have you repackaged, polished and made more workable?
And what makes you think you were the first to come up with the idea?
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 01:14
Whos it nerfing?
btw..
P.S. Emptied my pm box but i only had 5 in there in the first place
empty your sent items too.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 01:19
Vic - It included a damage nerf on all PvM/PvP in proportion to eachother, which had never been proposed in conjunction with this idea (this isn't a REALLY workable idea without the nerf...)
It included full reasoning behind why.
...uhh in english;
"We put it in lamen's terms" :p
ericdraven
21-11-03, 01:20
To keep it short - i like and support this idea.
Cruzbroker
21-11-03, 01:33
1. Make "Shields" (shelter deflector ..) selfcast only
2. Keep the group and sanctum "shields" in game
3. Decrease the effect of group and sanctum "shields" (PE's shelter could be even stronger than holy group shelter)
balances both, pvm and pvp.
same as removing groups and sanctums completely, but increasing natural defence/offence.
fights won't be too short.
Originally posted by Scikar
And what makes you think you were the first to come up with the idea?
I said I didnt come up with it first, [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
"Vic - It included a damage nerf on all PvM/PvP in proportion to eachother, which had never been proposed in conjunction with this idea"
It's pretty obvious.
They've increased mob HP twice, mob damage twice, and fire damage once all since ppu's became a class.
If you're going to remove holy s/d, it's elemetary you're going to have to reverse SOME of these changes.
(Remember gr'ing to CRP right after 166/167 and having fun with the fire mobs?)
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 01:38
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
1. Make "Shields" (shelter deflector ..) selfcast only
2. Keep the group and sanctum "shields" in game
3. Decrease the effect of group and sanctum "shields" (PE's shelter could be even stronger than holy group shelter)
balances both, pvm and pvp.
same as removing groups and sanctums completely, but increasing natural defence/offence.
fights won't be too short.
No, you miss the point.
We want to level the playing field between the 4 combat classes.
As it stands now, with PPU buffs in place, monks out perform the others by a HUGE margin.
We relegate the PPU to a rezz/heal/buff role so that the actual combat is fair.
I would absolutely love to see these changes in action. It would be a MAJOR step in the right direction. KK needs to at least try this on Test server.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 01:42
Originally posted by Celt
I said I didnt come up with it first, [ edited ]
"Vic - It included a damage nerf on all PvM/PvP in proportion to eachother, which had never been proposed in conjunction with this idea"
It's pretty obvious.
They've increased mob HP twice, mob damage twice, and fire damage once all since ppu's became a class.
If you're going to remove holy s/d, it's elemetary you're going to have to reverse SOME of these changes.
(Remember gr'ing to CRP right after 166/167 and having fun with the fire mobs?)
Very correct.
Not everyone's been around that long though :p
And even some of the people who have been still forgot o_O
Originally posted by Celt
I said I didnt come up with it first, [ edited ]
No, you said you already thought of this idea, and that you had seen other people with the same idea. You didn't say someone else said it first. Now that you have, how can you complain that QD is rehashing the idea when that's all you did? [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ].
So, this proposed change would require KK to lower the damage mobs do?
Originally posted by Scikar
[B]No, you said you already thought of this idea, and that you had seen other people with the same idea.
Search-> Celt -> self cast -> posted on 5th of october.
Hybrids were nerfed in march?.
I also presumed people would know that it wasnt originally mine.
Now that you have, how can you complain that QD is rehashing the idea when that's all you did? [ edited ]
Where did I complain?
I pointed out it was an old idea, and I then asked QD what he had added to it.
He told me what he had added to it, and I agreed.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
Originally posted by Spoon
So, this proposed change would require KK to lower the damage mobs do?
It wouldn't require it, since people hunt well enough solo anyway. But a reduction would be nice. The only place where it's necessary is MC5.
Originally posted by Celt
Where did I complain?
I pointed out it was an old idea, and I then asked QD what he had added to it.
He told me what he had added to it, and I agreed.
[ edited].
Whether intentional or not, your post was not simply asking QD what he added to it, it was demanding that he justify his reasons for posting what you had already posted earlier.
Normally I would apologise at this point, but instead I'm going to watch as a mod edits your post.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 02:06
Originally posted by Spoon
So, this proposed change would require KK to lower the damage mobs do?
IMO only SOME of the mobs would need lesser damage.
Originally posted by ericdraven
To keep it short - i like and support this idea.
wtf, where's eric?
Keiron is correct, please please KK just try this out on test server and have tons of people test it.
And Scikar/Celt, STOP ffs. :p
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 02:08
Indeed, this is really a VERY simple change to make to the TS.
Easy and quick, for the love of b33r, please do it.
Originally posted by Scikar
Whether intentional or not, your post was not simply asking QD what he added to it, it was demanding that he justify his reasons for posting what you had already posted earlier.
Normally I would apologise at this point, but instead I'm going to watch as a mod edits your post.
Yeah, I mean "What exactly about "make s/d self castable only" have you repackaged, polished and made more workable?" is certainly a "demand", and I'm certainly in a position to demand anything from QD.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
ericdraven
21-11-03, 02:11
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
wtf, where's eric?
*waves*
You are surprised why i am not against this or what? Well.. i am not one of those people who have a PPU sticked to them all the time, so i have no problem at all with this change.
And it's no PPU nerf as well.
Originally posted by Celt
Yeah, I mean "What exactly about "make s/d self castable only" have you repackaged, polished and made more workable?" is certainly a "demand", and I'm certainly in a position to demand anything from QD.
[ edited ]
Well it looks like a demand to me. And if I was flaming you I'd use words like, oh, maybe buffoon, or idiot.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 02:16
Originally posted by ericdraven
*waves*
You are surprised why i am not against this or what? Well.. i am not one of those people who have a PPU sticked to them all the time, so i have no problem at all with this change.
And it's no PPU nerf as well.
No it's that usually any change gets a "stop whining and play the game" type of response from you. :p
hypocrite is an insult, if you dont think so the buffoon, idiot and fool certainly arent either.
ericdraven
21-11-03, 02:20
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
No it's that usually any change gets a "stop whining and play the game" type of response from you. :p
True.
But i think this change would reduce the whining on the forums quite a lot... at least i HOPE this. :p
My post contained evidence of your hypocrisy. You just tacked idiot and buffoon on the end of your posts because you think I'm going to get wound up about it or maybe leave the thread. If you really knew what you were doing, you wouldn't need to say idiot or buffoon, the post would speak for itself.
Cruzbroker
21-11-03, 02:38
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
No, you miss the point.
We want to level the playing field between the 4 combat classes.
As it stands now, with PPU buffs in place, monks out perform the others by a HUGE margin.
We relegate the PPU to a rezz/heal/buff role so that the actual combat is fair.
Nee, What I get QD means:
make s/d selfcast only
increase natural defence a little
decrease damage of all a little
or vise versa, modify mobs..
now where do the sanctums and group s/d go?
I though letting them be in game, not as effective. So at start they might have ppu's group s/d, which is not much better than selfcast.
why would ppu go in a middle of enemies and allies to cast group s/d or sanctum? it's only in the start of the fight. (makes them go rezz/heal/buff)
Now there wouldn't be any modify on "natural defence" and damage, or mobs. because of the group s/d. apus have to run after ppu group s/d ends...
On PVM again, doesn't need any defence increase on team, simple group s/d and everyones happy..
where did I go wrong? tanks, spies and pes having their on s/d and apu has none? (lower the effect on apu even more o_O )?
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 02:45
Group spells would defeat the point of removal :p
Group holy heal could stay, I don't know what to say 100% about sanctums ...
I would prefer S/D Sanctum gone, but keep the others obviously..
It's generally just a case of removing S/D from the PPUs Team-Bonus count :p
It is, the foreign cast PPU S/D that unbalances the defence and offence in the other classes, so this is the most logical solution.....
Cruzbroker
21-11-03, 02:53
Nah, it's not like group spell would be as good as holy s/d now.
about the same as selfcast s/d (tl <25), maybe remove shelter...
(edit: lol no help at all :O)
(oh well 2:40 am here, good excuse)
edit: shit, maybe I just feel naked without them. Group Heal teh only left group spell? noo shelter makes difference..
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 02:59
Have I missed something?
This is about the total removal of shields being foreign cast? Only self, and in all forms including groups and sanctum spells?
I would say remove both Group and Sanctum for S/D. No use for it, no one can lowbie exploit PPU's (for s/d) so no use for sanctum, and since you're casting on yourself, no need for Group. Leave Holy Group Heal, but move it up a little in Techlevel so it’s harder to cap.
Celt and Scikar - I'm going to put you both in a hurt locker if this carries on. The ignore button may be just the thing for you both...
N
Cruzbroker
21-11-03, 03:04
Originally posted by Keiron
I would say remove both Group and Sanctum for S/D. No use for it, no one can lowbie exploit PPU's (for s/d) so no use for sanctum, and since you're casting on yourself, no need for Group. Leave Holy Group Heal, but move it up a little in Techlevel so it’s harder to cap.
Ok, I came to same thoughts after having lots of weird images in my head.
Lots of ideas have been proposed, this sounds like yet another good one. You will have to be careful how much you reduce everyone's offensive powers. Fights between players need to last a decent amount of time, in order to make it worthwhile with how long it often takes to leadup to a fight. If I'm going got spend half an hour gettin my team to the op, I want a fight that will last longer then 10 minutes. I really don't want to fall over dead from an APU that shot me 4 times, nor do I want to be turned into swiss cheese from a Tank who suddenly appears near me.
I'm not sure how it happened, but currently our defensive/offensive powers are a runaway train. Players can deal massive damage, especialy compared to how much health we have. Monsters typicly have tons more health then we do. To compensate our defensive powers were leapfrogged with shelter/deflector. It's insane how much damage is negated by puttin up a shelter/deflector. Your most powerful weapon is turned into a pea shooter, bouncing off me with little damage. They've already introduced mobs which do insane damage to compete with shelter/deflector. Mobs which are almost one hit killers, ie MC5 and Kamikazes. The next step will be to increase player damage to compensate, then we start over again.
Making shelter/deflector self cast would throw a monkey wrench in the system and would help bring us back down to more reasonable levels. However personaly I think we should go with a shelter/deflector strength reduction instead. Make s/d a boost to enhance your already impressive defenses. Currently it so far outpaces your defenses that PPU's can getaway with ignoring their con setups. Make s/d reasonable, enhance player's natural defenses, lower our offensive capability, and I think you'd have a much better Neocron
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 03:11
Well Carinth, making S/D "weaker" but then making natural player defense stronger is almost like the same thing if you think about it.
The point behind making S/D selfcast would be to tone down the PPU's importance.
Oh yea one more thing, why would player damage to mobs need to be increased to compensate? Only a handful of mobs would need to do less damage. Basically the "super" ones.
If you reduce s/d and enhance player defenses, then you are making players stronger on their own. The idea is a ppu should give some bonus to the team's defensive powers, not flip on godmode.
Mobs are mostly designed to be insanely hard unless you bring a ppu, then they're insanely easy. If you remove the s/d then mobs return to being insanely hard. It's not just the few uber mobs, those are meant for the strongest players. You need to consider mobs that are targeted for non capped characters. Warbots for example can be seriously dangerous, before them Launcher Cyclops can put the hurt on many players.
I don't think player defence need to increase. Most people now have their resists up to a level where they can take a serious amount of punishment. Beefing up player defence wouldn't actually get us anywhere. I'm also not sure about mobs. I think they should keep their offense, but reduce their defence, either by reducing their armor or their health. The biggest problem with Grims etc. is not the amount of damage they do, but the fact that it takes far too long to kill them unless they are damage boosted.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 03:29
Originally posted by Carinth
If you reduce s/d and enhance player defenses, then you are making players stronger on their own. The idea is a ppu should give some bonus to the team's defensive powers, not flip on godmode.
Mobs are mostly designed to be insanely hard unless you bring a ppu, then they're insanely easy. If you remove the s/d then mobs return to being insanely hard. It's not just the few uber mobs, those are meant for the strongest players. You need to consider mobs that are targeted for non capped characters. Warbots for example can be seriously dangerous, before them Launcher Cyclops can put the hurt on many players.
Well I soloed leveled my apu on saturn for a while. And lemme tell you, ppu buffs and heal can still help ALOT and i'm nowhere near capped. The difference is, it'll still be a bit of a challenge, which is a good thing.
Only stupid 1 shot kill mobs like y replicants or mc5 guards would need real toning down. I really hate dumb mobs like that that are only hard because they kill in one-two hits or something.
Originally posted by Scikar
I don't think player defence need to increase. Most people now have their resists up to a level where they can take a serious amount of punishment. Beefing up player defence wouldn't actually get us anywhere.
PvP wouldn't last long enough. People could/would die too fast.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 03:30
Scikar;
Exception;
Anything with a copbot rifle.
Exception;
Queens/Kings
:p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
PvP wouldn't last long enough. People could/would die too fast.
Nah, PvP when there arent any PPUs around is perfectly fine, no
need to mess around with that.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 03:39
Originally posted by Rade
Nah, PvP when there arent any PPUs around is perfectly fine, no
need to mess around with that.
Not everyone is a pistol PE. You have lots of defense(probably the best out of all combat classes) and you do little damage, so of course you'll think it's ok.
Anyhoo, it should be tested on test server. Selfcast first, then maybe natural defense increase if people don't like it. JUST TEST IT KK. :p
Tank vs Tank fights are also pretty long, its just fights with APUs
that are somewhat fast and those are supposed to be fast.
Dont fix it if it aint broken.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 03:42
Originally posted by Rade
Tank vs Tank fights are also pretty long, its just fights with APUs
that are somewhat fast and those are supposed to be fast.
Dont fix it if it aint broken.
True true true.
But then again, we're talking about op wars. Remember a natural increase in defense isn't a nerf for anyone.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
True true true.
But then again, we're talking about op wars. Remember a natural increase in defense isn't a nerf for anyone.
I know where you are comming from, but I just dont agree, if
anything I think combat is taking too long atm, even without
PPUs. Id rather have everyons defences decreased. Yes even in
OP wars. I dont think its fun when you have to dance with
someone for two mins to kill em. Snipers for example can never
snipe someone, because it takes too long so the victim can
always get into cover. If you try to play it like an assassin and
take out strays and hurt players you can never actually kill them
before everyone and their uncles notice what you are up to and
come over to give you a whacking. No thanks, I want combat
which is a little more fast-paced, and definately not even slower
than it is now.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 03:48
Yea I agree actually.
Dribble Joy
21-11-03, 03:50
With foreign cast s/d removed, fights will become much faster and shorter. I don't think that defense should be messed with atm.
Leave it as it is atm and then see if natural defenses need tweaking.
But fix mob dmg/armour/hp.
Once again I'll say it.
An idea worth TESTING on the TEST SERVER.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I can already kill PPUs on my tank so I don't really care for that comment :p
Wow, must be the crappiest PPU on the server
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 05:58
Originally posted by rob444
Wow, must be the crappiest PPU on the server Far, far from it.
Just a combination of four tactics :p
Only thing that makes these tactics difficult to finish, is parashock.
edit;
Just try to think of tactics which the ppu can't counter.
KRIMINAL99
21-11-03, 07:34
Absolutely terrible IMO... :(
Its just flat out a step towards killing player interaction. I spend most of time rolling and pvping by myself and I still don't like it.
I don't doubt you've killed some ppu's with your Tank, but I have serious doubts wether they were very good, QD. I will give you that I havn't played seriously in a month or so, and the last time I did I noticed I was weaker for some reason, took more dmg then usual. I will also give you that you are quite a skilled player. However you would not be able to kill me with your Tank. The day I die to a single Tank would be the day that I hang up my cloak and retire. Of course thats assuming they don't weaken us drasticly. Anyway, there is seriously noway you could kill me. Only one Tank has ever taken me down, and I wasn't seriously fighting him. The only tactic a Tank can hope to use is a combination of wargas flamer and cs. The goal is to spam the ppu to hell so he misses a spell going down. Smokey on Pluto managed to do this to me once. Alternately you could try to use crap spells on me, but the timing for that would be very slim. In all my time as a ppu I have only been sucessfuly crap spelled a few times. Most often it's a tl 3 heal and that doesn't effect me much. I dueled Xero, another excellent tank from Pluto, and he gave in. Given time I could have killed him, I already had him down halfway.
In order of threat to me is Tank, Spy, PE, APU. The Spies only hope is to snipe me while I'm slacking off and dont have buffs up. A PE could do the same, otherwise they could maybe crap spell me, or use deflector sanct to screw me up. Only the APU has a chance at killing me, and that would have to be a really good APU. Unless I am distracted, I can time myself to start casting shelter as your antibuff finishes so my downtime is minimal. I have even fought off two apu's, both antibuffing me, it's all about staying calm and aware of your surroundings.
I don't mean to sound arrogant, I'm really not : ) I've just played a ppu for so long and seen some of the best ppu's in action. I'm well aware of what ppu's are capable of and what they're not. Of course Polarity always amazed me, he's a friggin machine : ) If you can kill a good ppu with your Tank then you deserve a medal, that would easily make you the best Tank I've ever seen.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 07:53
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Absolutely terrible IMO... :(
Its just flat out a step towards killing player interaction. I spend most of time rolling and pvping by myself and I still don't like it.
How does this kill player interaction?
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 08:46
In all honesty, it's common sense, it's that, PPU defences WERE weakened some where along the line (meaning; my PPU could previously stand infront of the whole of the MC5 room and let S/D run out ....recast it, and live, he can't do that anymore... he can handle, maybe 3 of those guys..).
It takes a lot of effort, I find it much easier on my Tank than on a Spy I think I could probably set a spy up to do it.
It will take a while for my Tank TO kill a PPU, especially if the PPU is very intelligent, but in the long run, apart from parashocking me and running like smeg, a PPU is going to find two things happen;
A) he's gonna die.
B) I'm gonna run outta ammo.
B happened once ... I was NOT Pleased, but we had a joke about it after...
But yea, my Tanks a little different from every other tank on the block :)
And, my TSG isn't explo modded :p
Doesn't give me MUCH of a bonus against the best PPUs, but I find my ammo mod, more effective than explosive...
qd stop with the "my tank kills ppus shit" You have been fighting bad ppus.... look in a open space the ppu will just para spam you... out heal any tl3 heals with a sanctum get some distance and sc kill you...
Now a pe have a much better chance since he can cast low lvl spells faster.... defl sanctum wont help you much.....
anyways back on track... soo after this a ppu wont be able to parashock, cant shelter others ....
ie ppu can heal and then rez ppl after the fight....
Dont sound fun to me.....
Yea I had a feeling it wasn't just me, so I take it back. You prolly could kill me now. Also the longer the fight, the more likely I am to slip up and miss a recast. A spy would have to use the snipe and stealth attack. If he hides for long enough, he might be able to catch the ppu with his pants down, so to speak. The ppu could do almost nothing to fight this. He could toss up True Shit Sanctum and shuffle around hoping to randomly come accross the stealther. Otherwise all he can do is try to avoid bein shot, and just like with the Tank the longer the fight, the more likely the ppu is to slip up.
Deac, he said it hinges on not being para spammed : ) The fight will end in one of 3 ways really. Either the ppu finnaly slipped up and falls on his face, the Tank runs out of ammo/gives up, or the Ppu has had enough and leaves. So given that neither is going to leave the fight, then in the end the Tank will most likely win.
I've noticed that the better PPUs will cast a heal just before buff drops to cover themselves just in case they get jumped before re-casting shelter/deflector in a combat situation.
//Edit: Or maybe that's actually abnormally paranoid behaviour, and they only do it when I'm around ? :D
Originally posted by Carinth
If he hides for long enough, he might be able to catch the ppu with his pants down, so to speak. The ppu could do almost nothing to fight this. He could toss up True Shit Sanctum and shuffle around hoping to randomly come accross the stealther.
Hmm just dont stand in the open where you can get sniped?
Sd on at all times do help :) well not sometimes, on my apu with sd i once been sniped from 400+ health to 0 in one go.. due to lag ofcourse but still sucks...
and what do you ppl mean with "in the long run the ppu will die"? hours? :wtf:
look at times when im out running at crp and some lone tank or two attacks me ill just go dance with the nearest grim chaser :)
Originally posted by Carinth
Deac, he said it hinges on not being para spammed : ) The fight will end in one of 3 ways really. Either the ppu finnaly slipped up and falls on his face, the Tank runs out of ammo/gives up, or the Ppu has had enough and leaves. So given that neither is going to leave the fight, then in the end the Tank will most likely win.
ahhh no paraspam... well even with the new parashock he would still be froozen most of the time since its just 1v1...
Original monk
21-11-03, 10:04
I think its not a good idea, and its proposed a million times in the nerf the PPU sticky. All that this idea is, is killing the PPU: wasnt it a supportchar ? who are they gonna support ? and i dont mean casting lvl3 buffs :/
Lower the damage ? why would you do that ? then they better remove all rares (what they cant do cause we worked to hard for em)
Lower mc5 ? hehe: then its gonna be boring as hell: and no way a tank can survive in there not even if they lower the damage that those "disguised as security agents" copbots do :)
Nah i dont like one word of it: yet another class DEAD
Why would you make major changes now ? do you think they can balance all the suggestions youre bringing in ? lower overall damage and lower damage of mobs etc :/
THEY CANT EVEN BALANCE MONKS,
you think they can make the game balanced with selfcastable buffs ? or with lowering mobdamage ? dont think so
This is shifting the the problem to another area:
and even worse: WE all know that PE's have the best selfbuffs in the game (ppu not included) this is yet another advantage for the PE's that allready had too many presents for being yust a yack of all trades...
yeah but i know that there alot of PE's around here on the forum that will be happy enough that this idea passes true
BUT that aint me :P
Good luck with youre overall nerfing, enjoy posting and playing
edit: as you may noticed i didnt read the 5 pages in adavance, yust gave you my 2 cents about the general idea
class vs class
no freeze
no buffs other then what you can cast yourself
... there are the standard rules for a fair duel. why shouldn't these rules apply to all types of fights, including op wars.
I support this change.
Hm i think it isnt actually that bad idea. But to get rid of all foreign S&D would be a too drastic change. S&D make longer battles, that's more fun, we need them.
Why not simply reduce the foreign casts for first. Actually its only the foreign Heal that is so damn strong and outheals everything. Foreign Shields were reduced by 50% once already but may need a little more nerf.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 11:11
I don't think
a) the Tanks that remain in this game and vocal have any skill.
b) the Monks that have posted against this idea have realised what g0rt posted in a single paragraph (ehh..)
class vs class
no freeze
no buffs other then what you can cast yourself
... there are the standard rules for a fair duel. why shouldn't these rules apply to all types of fights, including op wars.
.....
Sometimes some of this community seems ...just too far below...
Even the people that normally go out of their way to flame me when you'd think it'd be impossible to flame a comment have agreed with this idea.
I start to give up hope on some people...
Just make everyone happy and delete monks from the game.
Disturbed021
21-11-03, 11:16
I say NO WAY.
didn't read all the pages b4, but what then whould be the point of a PPU? To Heal, rez and cast level 3 boosters, right?
Then why wouldn't most everyone roll to a Hybrid then if thats all a PPU is good for?
At least then you can make sure to have s +d on. With DB the damage isn't that far off of a Pure APU w/o db. Plus a Hybrid could kill an APU cause the APU will never have s+d.
Imo all this change would do is make APUs really weak defensively, PPUs boring, and make most monks roll to Hybrid.
Why do all the PPU's conveniently forget all the spells they usually carry around when threads like this come up?
PPU's will still:
-Lvl 3 boost
-Heal/sanctum
-parashock
-damage boost
-catharsis/sanctum
-resurrect
- shelter/deflector themselves
What's with all this "What will we do then" crap? That seems like plenty to me. If it's not enough for you, cast a true sight and a soul cluster, then paraspam some more. You all know you can't get enough of that paraspam.
dude we wont be albe to para spam..
soo its down to heal and dmg boost :\
so basically this post is, i like dueling, i want an OP war to be one big duel.
Screw the team side of it, i want an OP war to be a big Duel.
QD.....let me quess u and shadow spent 10-20 mins on msn talking about how u liked duels then thought up this idea.........:rolleyes:
deal with it ffs a PPU is a support char, his job is to keep people alive, with out S/D its like saying u can onlt use low tech weapons to kill some one. o_O
@shadow most of the time it wa apu/ppu vs 7 + people they came at you one at a time NOT in one group.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 12:23
Originally posted by deac
dude we wont be albe to para spam..
soo its down to heal and dmg boost :\
Callash really wants to keep parashock in. So unfortunately, it looks like it's here to stay.
Secondly, don't you care about balance? heheh :p
Originally posted by hose187
Why do all the PPU's conveniently forget all the spells they usually carry around when threads like this come up?
PPU's will still:
-Lvl 3 boost
-Heal/sanctum
-parashock (nerfed)
-damage boost
-catharsis/sanctum (u actually cast cath!)
-resurrect (nerfed)
- shelter/deflector themselves
so that leaves s/d, dmg boost, 10 min primarys, and.....oh fuck what else.
yeah one thing is that this would solve monk-o-cron
you would get PE-o-cron as atm that char is best for solo work, as most people would re-roll to be a PE.
which if u hadicap a PPU in this mannor u deserve as u will have people re-rolling all over the board. Monks to PE's
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 12:31
Originally posted by Ryuben
@shadow most of the time it wa apu/ppu vs 7 + people they came at you one at a time NOT in one group.
No, ask carinth or kramer. Their were multiple times me and Car o Kramer took on a group at the same time. Go ahead. One specific time was me and Kramer versus a clan. I don't want to sound egotistical, but it's true. And it shows the overpowered nature of apu/ppu team or tank/ppu team.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 12:40
Originally posted by Disturbed021
I say NO WAY.
didn't read all the pages b4, but what then whould be the point of a PPU? To Heal, rez and cast level 3 boosters, right?
Then why wouldn't most everyone roll to a Hybrid then if thats all a PPU is good for?
At least then you can make sure to have s +d on. With DB the damage isn't that far off of a Pure APU w/o db. Plus a Hybrid could kill an APU cause the APU will never have s+d.
Imo all this change would do is make APUs really weak defensively, PPUs boring, and make most monks roll to Hybrid.
im sorry... i just cant find a bad thing here
PPUs will only be able to be a support class....AWWWWWW poor PPU wont be able to destroy the class balancing system anymore.. *sniffle*
my god.. tanks only get to shoot shit.. do u hear them bitching?
this way PPUs bcome the support class they were supposed to be. and hell if people go hybird. then good. hybrids are NOT over powered anymore. and from what ppl have said are still possible. so i see NO problem with this. infact i would LOVE to see this.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
No, ask carinth or kramer. Their were multiple times me and Car o Kramer took on a group at the same time. Go ahead. One specific time was me and Kramer versus a clan. I don't want to sound egotistical, but it's true. And it shows the overpowered nature of apu/ppu team or tank/ppu team.
lol ok u and a ppu vs 7 people i choose, lets see how long u last :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Ryuben
so that leaves s/d, dmg boost, 10 min primarys, and.....oh fuck what else.
yeah one thing is that this would solve monk-o-cron
you would get PE-o-cron as atm that char is best for solo work, as most people would re-roll to be a PE.
which if u hadicap a PPU in this mannor u deserve as u will have people re-rolling all over the board. Monks to PE's
But consider that PEs are meant to be the majority of the population.... which means that there should be more PEs. TBH I woudn't mind if PEs weren't as good as tanks in combat... so long as we were more able to solo and get on by ourselves than tanks are. As to be a pure combat class you must give up certain soloing abilities.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 12:42
Originally posted by Ryuben
so basically this post is, i like dueling, i want an OP war to be one big duel.
Screw the team side of it, i want an OP war to be a big Duel.
QD.....let me quess u and shadow spent 10-20 mins on msn talking about how u liked duels then thought up this idea.........:rolleyes:
deal with it ffs a PPU is a support char, his job is to keep people alive, with out S/D its like saying u can onlt use low tech weapons to kill some one. o_O
@shadow most of the time it wa apu/ppu vs 7 + people they came at you one at a time NOT in one group.
You don't read shit do you?
I mainly play PPU now.
Wake up, kiddo.
This is, the only, and I do mean that very seriously.
ONLY WAY, op wars will not be unbalanced by PPUs in terms of character vs character.
Poor Tank doesn't want his advantage over PEs taken away, because when a PPU is around Tanks have every, single, possible advantage in the book over a PE whether they have a PPU or not.
Exclusion = stealth.
lmfao, they doesn't help much either with parashock and damage boost present.
Please tell me you have better than this in terms of whine's ryuben, because you're really not on par with what you used to be.
edit;
Ryuben please stop limiting your views to your own diminished skill level.
My PPU + a PE (let alone a friggin APU) Killed 5 PEs and a PPU 2vs6(simultaneous combat).
.........
I've SEEN with my own two eyes, an APU/PPU Team kill close to 20 people in one go, as well.
And I have survived as a PPU against 5 APUs, 2 Pistol PEs, a Pistol Spy, a Tank, and two PPUs, and REZZED in that condition a friendly APU.
The only reason he eventually fell over again is because after 4 minutes we just couldn't hold the line against the firepower of Five APUs.
However, that is precisely the point, PPUs negatve the defence malus on APUs, which instantly sky rocket them past tanks in terms of any sort of balance.
PEs lose out the greatest from this.
Tanks slot between PEs and APUs but still don't match up to APUs.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 12:44
Originally posted by Ryuben
lol ok u and a ppu vs 7 people i choose, lets see how long u last :rolleyes:
Well. tbh ye if there good sure 7 easy as hell
thing is. a APU/PPU team that work well together can EASYLY kill a huge number of others unless theres an equal APU/PPU team (or more)
ive seen it happen in TH were 2 monks can do more damage than a whole clan.
[EDIT]
oh and errr
Yes, I like it. 64 71.91%
No, I dislike it. 25 28.09%
nuf sed
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 12:47
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Well. tbh ye if there good sure 7 easy as hell
thing is. a APU/PPU team that work well together can EASYLY kill a huge number of others unless theres an equal APU/PPU team (or more)
ive seen it happen in TH were 2 monks can do more damage than a whole clan.
Exactly. Also apu/ppu means the ppu JUST focuses on the apu and on parashocking/damage boosting the enemies. Getting 100% attention from a PPU is different than op wars where the ppu can't pamper you. So yea there's a specific advantage there.
EDIT: Ryuben, go ahead and name 7 people. Out of curiousity's sake.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 12:49
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Well. tbh ye if there good sure 7 easy as hell
thing is. a APU/PPU team that work well together can EASYLY kill a huge number of others unless theres an equal APU/PPU team (or more)
ive seen it happen in TH were 2 monks can do more damage than a whole clan.
[EDIT]
oh and errr
Yes, I like it. 64 71.91%
No, I dislike it. 25 28.09%
nuf sed
A lot of those No votes are because.......
As usual for this community..........
They didn't read the thread, they just went OFMG BALENCE CHNAGEH!? FEXK!!!!
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 12:52
All i keep thinking is. this is the first idea ive seen so many damn PPUs and APUs agree with.
it must mean summat if even they like it.
Are those PPUs who say not having to cast S/D on others HONESTLY saying they LIKE having everyone in their team yell S/D! every 2 minutes? And they have NO problem doing it?
Removing shields won't make OP fights any quicker. The only thing making them quicker is that APUs could take people down very quickly. But the APUs would also drop very quickly. Moon Strikers etc. would actully have an effect. So now we have APUs which can take people down very quickly, but we also have an effective counter, because Moon Striker hurts an unbuffed APU, it does not hurt a buffed one. There's also Lib, Silent Hunter, and Pain Easer, which all hurt unbuffed APUs. Fights between PEs and tanks are not over quickly, because the majority of players now have a decent resist setup. The only fight which would be over quickly is the fight where one side decides to bring nothing but APUs and PPUs, and finds all their APUs sniped or blown up by rockets within the first few minutes.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 12:57
Exactly Scikar, especially when you combine it with the heavy range nerf of apus.
I think snipers would be very happy with this change as well. And guess what, it would make hybrids more viable at op wars. :lol:
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You don't read shit do you?
I mainly play PPU now.
Wake up, kiddo.
This is, the only, and I do mean that very seriously.
ONLY WAY, op wars will not be unbalanced by PPUs in terms of character vs character.
Poor Tank doesn't want his advantage over PEs taken away, because when a PPU is around Tanks have every, single, possible advantage in the book over a PE whether they have a PPU or not.
Exclusion = stealth.
lmfao, they doesn't help much either with parashock and damage boost present.
Please tell me you have better than this in terms of whine's ryuben, because you're really not on par with what you used to be.
edit;
Ryuben please stop limiting your views to your own diminished skill level.
lol QD thats the point thow....PPU's are meant to unblanace the game
APU's are classed as a support char, they were told that they NEEDED, read that NEEDED support from another char to function properly, hence ppu. When on my APU u know the looks i got off a PE in my team when i ask for basic 2 or spy....or a s/d :rolleyes:
tanks in a op fight get good defence and have natural good offence
thats how it should be !!! there own defences are enhanced by a PPU, a tank with ppu buffs can cap % on all his defence and imo.....if anti buff was taken away would be tank> a APU buffed.
PE's are a solo class they function better as a 1 vs 1 char. hence at op wars they EXCELL at distracting the enemy. one PE with stealth can fuck up a attackers offencive line very easily. ([edit] and as it is there own shelta is more or less equal to a holy shelta cast on them)
Spy's *shrugs* with ppu buffs the only time they can get close to people.
PPU's are MEANT to do this.
and yes i have been with a 3 apu's (1 ppu 3 apu's) and killed over 20 enemy (Dark + FF @ cycrow) we were DM after by FF thanking us for killing dark as FF were loseing.
with my APU friend we go a hunting people hello we kill people too.
And as for skill.......recent example tank, pe , apu attack friend of mind hunting DoY's im on my ppu, i kill the apu tank and the PE runs off
i spent about 10 mins last night running threw spirits lines as they atacked nem saying go home etc
i rezzed a clan m8 with over 10 people atacking me (2ppu's about 3 apu's 2 spy's rest tanks)
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 12:59
lol QD thats the point thow....PPU's are meant to unblanace the game
do you even live in the real world?
PE's are a solo class they function better as a 1 vs 1 char. hence at op wars they EXCELL at distracting the enemy. one PE with stealth can fuck up a attackers offencive line very easily.
unless they have a PPU you mean :rolleyes:
And as for skill.......recent example tank, pe , apu attack friend of mind hunting DoY's im on my ppu, i kill the apu tank and the PE runs off
if thats not a HUGE case for PPU been overpowered i dunno wot is lol.
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:00
Originally posted by Ryuben
and yes i have been with a 3 apu's (1 ppu 3 apu's) and killed over 20 enemy
If this actually happened ( :lol: ), then why did you find it so hard to believe 1 apu/1 ppu vs 7?
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
do you even live in the real world?
there are 2 blanaces for this game
solo
team
this group is a team game.....read TEAM.
[edit @ shadow its not the fact it was ur usual post u didn't say if they were expecting it or 1 at a time.........u didn't even say what class they are, HELL i can kill 7 spys on my ppu)
Original monk
21-11-03, 13:02
shadow the link in youre sig points me at a thread that makes the ppu a buffbot (in other words, make the ppu only viable to give others boosters, DB, freeze and boring stuff like that)
i wanted to say that the titel was incorrect cause you do nerf em: but i am wrong: selcastable buffs wouldnt nerf the ppu's, they would extinct em hehe
and no i would never reroll my ppu to a PE in my life, (as someone stated before that alot of peeps would reroll) PE's are after APU's the next ones that will be nerfed if you believe in the ongoing nerfcycle here in neocron :) (this is theoretically cause KK wouldnt dare to touch the PE, its out of their reach/control atm, would be bad fo business ;) )
So if the ppunerfing goes on like it is on the testserver now, or if the selcastable buffs get true then you will see what APU-o-cron will be. To take myself as an example: still have my 200 passive-psi-use-loms ready in the gogo, yust in case hé, do you think people wonna waste 100psi and tons of int ? :)
And dont say hybrid cause hybrids been killed by KK long time ago, do you see the connection with the links in the sigs again ? and the big red, how about a solution ... sigs ?
enjoy posting and playing people
Originally posted by Ryuben
there are 2 blanaces for this game
solo
team
this group is a team game.....read TEAM.
[edit @ shadow its not the fact it was ur usual post u didn't say if they were expecting it or 1 at a time.........u didn't even say what class they are, HELL i can kill 7 spys on my ppu)
So why is it balanced solo, and horribly unbalanced in teams?
Original, I'll ask again, are you HONESTLY saying you're entire job is just to S/D people and you don't mind it at all? You're saying that by not having to cast 2 spells every 2 minutes on each team mate isn't a problem for you, and you clearly must enjoy it if it's the only thing you play for. Without S/D your job would be parashock, damage boost, antishock, antiboost, antidote, heal, rez, buff. Currently it's exactly the same except that PPUs spend so much time S/Ding that they never have time to antishock anyone.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 13:02
True.. two balances which are thrown out the window..:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
unless they have a PPU you mean :rolleyes:
no a PE excells at attacking and disrupting the lines of a attacking force....stealth inwait for stealth to go BEHIND the ppu shoot him a few times or pick wounded team m8...makes ppu turn around...swap to para by this time u should have stealthed out taken anti para drugs.........omg !
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
if thats not a HUGE case for PPU been overpowered i dunno wot is lol.
why i didn't kill them
the DoY's did all i did was para then dmg then and the mobs and stand in the way of attacker to DoY mob *shrugs
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:05
Originally posted by Ryuben
[edit @ shadow its not the fact it was ur usual post u didn't say if they were expecting it or 1 at a time.........u didn't even say what class they are, HELL i can kill 7 spys on my ppu)
Mixed. Depends. Obviously 5 apus and 2 ppus would be a bit harder than other teams.
I'll tell you at once incident with me and kramer. It was 2 ppus, one "mid level" ppu who was there just to throw bless heals or a res. A couple of pes, one apu, one tank, and a spy sniping I think.
Sure, they didn't have the best teamwork in teh world. But that shows that something is wrong if 2 people took them like that.
Even if it WAS 7 spies, it shouldn't be done.
Originally posted by Scikar
So why is it balanced solo, and horribly unbalanced in teams?
explain why team is so unblanced to you ?
[edit @shadow why the fuck not this is a team game and ur skill was keeping u alive ?
u were useing 2 principals of this game.......teaming up, and skill........so that shouldn't happen in ur opinion
and mid lvl ppu's are almost a waste of time....u can killl them with poison alone :(
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:06
Originally posted by Ryuben
explain why team is so unblanced to you ?
Ok, don't you think there's something wrong when you see 80% of char in op wars are monks?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Ok, don't you think there's something wrong when you see 80% of char in op wars are monks?
erm........shadow been to a op fight recently ???
read recently go to pluto and jsut watch a op fight for some one and count numbers
kthnxbye
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:10
Originally posted by Ryuben
erm........shadow been to a op fight recently ???
read recently go to pluto and jsut watch a op fight for some one and count numbers
kthnxbye
Have you seen FF or DARK lately?
KTHXBYE
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 13:10
Ill tell u why its unbalanced
Bcos it no longer relies on skill. or weapons or hell even general numbers
it now relies on how many PPUs u can cram into an OP war. THATS why its unbalanced
Originally posted by Ryuben
explain why team is so unblanced to you ?
1v1:
Spy kill tank? Yes.
Tank kill spy? Yes.
PE kill tank? Yes.
Tank kill PE? Yes.
APU kill tank? Yes.
Tank kill APU? Yes.
All roughly even? Yes.
Team:
Which team would you prefer, assuming 5 PPUs in each team?
10 APUs?
10 Tanks?
10 PEs?
10 spies?
The best team by miles is APU monks. The second best is tanks, though there is a HUGE diffference because the tanks are practically useless. Only the APU can realistically deal enough damage to actually kill anyone else, especially PPUs.
In teams with everyone having S/D, even with them nerfed, they all end up on even footing defence-wise. Tanks end up with better defence than PEs, but they both die in the same number of HL hits. APUs, supposedly the weakest, can take a barrage of Moon Striker rockets and keep snapping off HLs.
Remove the foreign SDs completely, and APUs have to support like they were supposed to. You can't rely on APUs to do a tank's job.
Originally posted by Ryuben
erm........shadow been to a op fight recently ???
read recently go to pluto and jsut watch a op fight for some one and count numbers
kthnxbye
Pluto is a stupid example because some people only have 1 account and don't want to play a monk. Go have a look at a Saturn OP fight.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Have you seen FF or DARK lately?
KTHXBYE
FF are a special consideration.....hence why they had all there OPS stiped from them last night.
dark...they do it as they need to vs FF (whos every other member has a alt whos a ppu)
but u didn't answer my question which means no u havn'ted...last DARK fight i was at they had 3 ppu's *shrugs* for a force of 20
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Ill tell u why its unbalanced
Bcos it no longer relies on skill. or weapons or hell even general numbers
it now relies on how many PPUs u can cram into an OP war. THATS why its unbalanced
so it doesn't rely on skill at all ?? ffs
so...how can a team of 4 kill a team of 8 when they have ppu's??
omg could it be skill and team work...OHNOZ !!!!!!!!!
[edit @ Scikar the only rason u would choose a APU team is because they can strip S/D from some one....if tanks could do this then tanks would be the best team, i would like to see that
15 vs 15 no anti buff used and no para and see how long the fight took....... :rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 13:15
Originally posted by Ryuben
lol QD thats the point thow....PPU's are meant to unblanace the game
Can someone tell him where this game has gone since he's been away?
He's on the wrong damned page....
APU's are classed as a support char, they were told that they NEEDED, read that NEEDED support from another char to function properly, hence ppu. When on my APU u know the looks i got off a PE in my team when i ask for basic 2 or spy....or a s/d :rolleyes:
With a PPU around, APUs are NOT, support units.
They're front line pwn everything and not give a crap units.
They actually have defence and HP comparable to a tank AND they have more firepower than a Tank during this time.
Duhrrrrrrrrrr......... and we wonder why it's called MONKOCRON.
We wonder why people bitch.
Or did you secretly sneak off and roll an APU and a PPU and that's allllllll you play now? o_O
tanks in a op fight get good defence and have natural good offence
They already do.
You mean, their defence improves further, breaking the armor/con resist barrier limits.
thats how it should be !!! there own defences are enhanced by a PPU, a tank with ppu buffs can cap % on all his defence and imo.....if anti buff was taken away would be tank> a APU buffed.
...you're...kidding me...right? o_O
One retard in my clan tried to tell this to me too.
We did an op fight, where we basically tried "his theory out", guess what, we got utterly pwned, the APUs just swung in like a wave, they didn't even bother with HAB they just whiped, everyone out.
And no I don't think we did particularly well.
PE's are a solo class they function better as a 1 vs 1 char. hence at op wars they EXCELL at distracting the enemy. one PE with stealth can fuck up a attackers offencive line very easily.
Yea no crap? I been doin this for a long time on my Pistol PE.
Liberator makes you a very noise bumble bee to ignore.
People don't like ignoring noisey things.
([edit] and as it is there own shelta is more or less equal to a holy shelta cast on them)
Correct.
Unbalanced, it means what was balanced has now become unbalanced, as soon as PPU enters the equation, the PE becomes the BOTTOM of the pack.
By quite a significant way actually...
Spy's *shrugs* with ppu buffs the only time they can get close to people.
Lies or ignorance.
PPU's are MEANT to do this.
PPUs currently do this, they were designed to do this.
These are correct things.
MEANT?
Hmm.
When you design a system to work
1=1=1=1
And then add a factor that makes it
1>1>1>1
it does not make it look right.
Does it?
and yes i have been with a 3 apu's (1 ppu 3 apu's) and killed over 20 enemy (Dark + FF @ cycrow) we were DM after by FF thanking us for killing dark as FF were loseing.
o_O
o_O
Isn't this a contradiction of what you were mentioning earlier...?
with my APU friend we go a hunting people hello we kill people too.
.................. o_O
And as for skill.......recent example tank, pe , apu attack friend of mind hunting DoY's im on my ppu, i kill the apu tank and the PE runs off
Call me when you do something truly impressive.
In that situation you must have been facing noobs because if you'd been facing me 3vs1 you'd be one dead ppu.
I knew you'd rerolled to a monk, I just knew it.
i spent about 10 mins last night running threw spirits lines as they atacked nem saying go home etc
....My PE can do that......
Whut's yer point?
i rezzed a clan m8 with over 10 people atacking me (2ppu's about 3 apu's 2 spy's rest tanks)
been there done that.
Actually I rezzed three clan mates under these conditions.
Instead it was
5 APUs.
2 PPUs.
2 Pistol PEs.
1 Pistol Spy.
1 Tank.
5 APUs and they can't kill one solo PPU trying to rezz?
...either says somethin about me or says somethin about them.
And yes, they were firing HAB.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 13:15
Hmm lets see.
10 mid - high skill players 1 PPU
4 mid- high skill APU/PPUs (2 of each)
i know who my money would be on.
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Hmm lets see.
10 mid - high skill players 1 PPU
4 mid- high skill APU/PPUs (2 of each)
i know who my money would be on.
a low lvl ppu isn't worth jack. when u saw mid do u mean 20-40 (thats mid)
@QD.....you are trying to make what is 2 different playing fields even, which shouldn't be and if all u was as a pistol PE was a buzzing noise then u weren't very good at it.
With a PPU around, APUs are NOT, support units.
They're front line pwn everything and not give a crap units.
They actually have defence and HP comparable to a tank AND they have more firepower than a Tank during this time.
most apu's i know have hp around...400 ish when buffed........most tanks have 500 + thats a bit of a difference, true apu's do more dmg...but maybe it was the zerging that fecked u over as a tank buffed can take on alot more people then a abuffed apu, me and hinch attacked gab vs the resident clan....we took down 3 would have killed more but there were 10+ and at least 2 ppu's (one hybrid) the only reason we died was becasue the fire power comeing in was > the my holy heal and the tank died.
maybe its the holy heal that needs changeing not the buffs...
[edit] at op wars recently i have seen alot more tanks / PE's then recently jsut give it a few weeks QD after new tank toys come out then asses monk-o-cron
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:26
Originally posted by Ryuben
maybe its the holy heal that needs changeing not the buffs...
Good point. Do you suggest anything? I mean, what would you suggest?
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 13:26
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Hmm lets see.
10 mid - high skill players 1 PPU
4 mid- high skill APU/PPUs (2 of each)
i know who my money would be on.
Syntax, it's pointless, he LIKES it this way, he LIkES monkocron, he LIKES the fact that the whole battle depends on him.
It's a magnetism, it even tempted me for a time.
That fight at chester where I was being chased around for just over 14 minutes by 11 people ...managing to rezz 3 people in that time, and keep an APU alive for 4 minutes of it, after rezzing.
Still having been able to survive if I wanted to (...running) I finally died to newb buffs and mass bombardment of HL from 5 APUs.
......so I doubt you'll be able to bring him back from the dark side...
FYI.
IMO As a PPU who at the very, least compares to Polarity now, I am distinctly aware that nerfing holy heal will be 15 times worse than Self Cast S/D
that IS an idea I'm completely against.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Good point. Do you suggest anything? I mean, what would you suggest?
the ticks should be slower as that is what it boils down to 9/10 if u have a heal on you the s/d mean little with a capped HH you reduce dmg taken alot. and with s/d it means u take...11 off a hl shot which is with the next tick ...
[edit @ QD...most of hte op fights on pluto have evened out yeah 2 clans keep wit hte must have 9 ppus to fight but the rest are a very good enemy i.e. spirit. i play atm lest see
PPU, APU, pistol PE, Rifle Spy, HC tank. o fuck....:eek: the chars i play most...rifle spy.....apu.....HC tank...ppu...pistol PE (cos its on uranus dam fucking lag) and only the apu so much cos im trying to lvl him.
You can give tanks all the toys in the world, at the end of the day HL does far more damage than any other weapon in the game, and with PPU buffs the difference between tank defence and APU defence is minimal. Sacrifice a little defence for the most powerful weapon in the game, HAB to take down PPUs, and enough range to snipe spies back? Who would say no?
Like you said, it's a team game, so a team with only monks should lose to a mixed team, no?
Originally posted by Scikar
You can give tanks all the toys in the world, at the end of the day HL does far more damage than any other weapon in the game, and with PPU buffs the difference between tank defence and APU defence is minimal. Sacrifice a little defence for the most powerful weapon in the game, HAB to take down PPUs, and enough range to snipe spies back? Who would say no?
Like you said, it's a team game, so a team with only monks should lose to a mixed team, no?
APU range..enough to snipe a spy....ur haveing a laugh and next patch nerfs that even more...to 150 M
the only thing that needs to change is
HAB should be a verson for all chars but if so ROF for all needs to go up, as u would have 5 spammed on u and not say 2
and the dmg a APU does...needs to be cut with something........instead of pure nrg
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:34
Originally posted by Ryuben
and the dmg a APU does...needs to be cut with something........instead of pure nrg
You mean mixing it up? Like instead of 100% energy, 50% energy and 50% fire or x-ray?
IMO that would make the spell stronger not weaker.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
You mean mixing it up? Like instead of 100% energy, 50% energy and 50% fire or x-ray?
IMO that would make the spell stronger not weaker.
........so a tank shouldn't mod his CS he should leave it 100% nrg?
Originally posted by Ryuben
APU range..enough to snipe a spy....ur haveing a laugh and next patch nerfs that even more...to 150 M
the only thing that needs to change is
HAB should be a verson for all chars but if so ROF for all needs to go up, as u would have 5 spammed on u and not say 2
and the dmg a APU does...needs to be cut with something........instead of pure nrg
Yeah, let's just turn every class into APU, problem solved. :rolleyes:
What's your argument against removing foreign S/D again? Because you don't seem to have one.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 13:35
I think Ryu is either grasping at straws or doesn't know what he's doing...
...no offence dude but seriously so far your comments, like most of the other anti-idea comments in this thread...have been a joke....
Originally posted by Ryuben
........so a tank shouldn't mod his CS he should leave it 100% nrg?
No, as Shad just said, part energy part xray/fire > pure energy.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I think Ryu is either grasping at straws or doesn't know what he's doing...
...no offence dude but seriously so far your comments, like most of the other anti-idea comments in this thread...have been a joke....
basically the mian probly is ....msot people will reroll to spys or PE'S as there is no draw being a tank.....or a APU some being a a PPU but *shrugs*
so u would have PE - o - cron which imo isn't better its jsut different to what it is now
i shouldn't need to explain why it would be PE-o-cron
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:38
Originally posted by Ryuben
........so a tank shouldn't mod his CS he should leave it 100% nrg?
Modding a CS adds damage overall instead of just splitting it up.
9999999999% of the chars in this game have good energy resist, since it's so important. If you split HL between energy and fire/xray, you'll only make it easier to do more damage. Alot of people don't have tip top x-ray or fire resist the same way they do to energy, so the HL will be doing alot more damage to alot of people.
Originally posted by Ryuben
basically the mian probly is ....msot people will reroll to spys or PE'S as there is no draw being a tank.....or a APU some being a a PPU but *shrugs*
so u would have PE - o - cron which imo isn't better its jsut different to what it is now
i shouldn't need to explain why it would be PE-o-cron
Well we have to explain why it's monkacron now, so come on, explain.
Originally posted by Scikar
No, as Shad just said, part energy part xray/fire > pure energy.
*shrugs* apu's will get a dmg nerf sooner or later so was jsut tossing the apu's a bone
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:40
Originally posted by Ryuben
*shrugs* apu's will get a dmg nerf sooner or later so was jsut tossing the apu's a bone
KK can throw apus a bone by fixing fire apoc and making it work properly. lol.
That would make me so happy and I'll gladly take an HL nerf. hehe
Originally posted by Ryuben
*shrugs* apu's will get a dmg nerf sooner or later so was jsut tossing the apu's a bone
If we remove foreign S/D APUs won't need a damage nerf. If we don't, they will.
Originally posted by Scikar
Well we have to explain why it's monkacron now, so come on, explain.
*shrugs*
PE has defence > tank when buffed when unbuffed 90% stealth away
PE has offence = Tank (read when dmg boost sanc / dmg are cast on target)
PE has range > tank
Pe have defence > APU
PE has < offence to apu but can kill one alot faster (ala PE at range)
PE has range > apu
so if there was only self buffinf......PE's would be kings
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
KK can throw apus a bone by fixing fire apoc and making it work properly. lol.
That would make me so happy and I'll gladly take an HL nerf. hehe
lol if FA worked people would bitch like they did when posion was "fixed" *shrugs*
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 13:44
Originally posted by Ryuben
lol if FA worked people would bitch like they did when posion was "fixed" *shrugs*
Except their bitching wouldn't be justified, since there's fire armor etc.....
:p
Originally posted by Ryuben
*shrugs*
PE has defence > tank when buffed when unbuffed 90% stealth away
PE has offence = Tank (read when dmg boost sanc / dmg are cast on target)
PE has range > tank
Pe have defence > APU
PE has < offence to apu but can kill one alot faster (ala PE at range)
PE has range > apu
so if there was only self buffinf......PE's would be kings
No, PE offence < tank. If you damage boost someone he runs off to the PPU with cath sanctum so that's pointless. Not to mention PEs can't use damage boost sanct. Tank has better range than a pistol PE. Rifle PE does less damage. PEs have no AoE. Moon Striker tears up unbuffed APUs from a range, something PEs can't do. APUs have greater range than PEs. And an APU vs a PE with both hitting every shot ends with APU winning. Sorry, but you are talking out of your arse, and it smells of shit.
I really dont know what to think about this idea, part of me wants to like it but part of me doesn't. I don't think anything too radical is the answer but then again I don't even know if this is a radical idea or not.
I'm confused :confused:
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 13:47
Originally posted by Rizzy
I really dont know what to think about this idea, part of me wants to like it but part of me doesn't. I don't think anything too radical is the answer but then again I don't even know if this is a radical idea or not.
I'm confused :confused:
That's why it took me over a month of self-debate to post the thread and even then only after SDs encouragement :p
Originally posted by Scikar
No, PE offence < tank. If you damage boost someone he runs off to the PPU with cath sanctum so that's pointless. Not to mention PEs can't use damage boost sanct. Tank has better range than a pistol PE. Rifle PE does less damage. PEs have no AoE. Moon Striker tears up unbuffed APUs from a range, something PEs can't do. APUs have greater range than PEs. And an APU vs a PE with both hitting every shot ends with APU winning. Sorry, but you are talking out of your arse, and it smells of shit.
since when the fuck did a rifle PE have < range to a tank ?
and PE offence < tank when dmg boosted? u never seen a PE useing a disruptor ? or....useing a RoG......or useing a SH
RADE casts dmg bosot sanc before duels so he haxs?
a PE can rip a APU from range hell my commando took 100 off a apu
APU's have greater range then a PE what u been smokeing wake the fuck up.
.fenix can and has taken 17 HL shots (capped HL) he normally takes 11...u show me ONE apu that can take 10 PE shots ...any one ?
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 13:57
Originally posted by Ryuben
since when the fuck did a rifle PE have < range to a tank ?
he didn't say that.
and PE offence < tank when dmg boosted? u never seen a PE useing a disruptor ? or....useing a RoG......or useing a SH
LOL
Two of those weapons require-ultra-drugging, RoG is another issue though.
RADE casts dmg bosot sanc before duels so he haxs?
Drugs.
PE doin tat in an op fight is one mightee dead pe.
a PE can rip a APU from range hell my commando took 100 off a apu
You ....use a commando.......on a PE.................?
.........................................................
..........
I wont even comment.
APU's have greater range then a PE what u been smokeing wake the fuck up.[/qoute]
re-read.
[quote].fenix can and has taken 17 HL shots (capped HL) he normally takes 11...u show me ONE apu that can take 10 PE shots ...any one ?
Dumb fucking luck.
Even he admits it.
I did an experiment, INT 66, STR 65, PURE ENERGY Armor, CON to totally cap out energy resist (200 combined), shelter at the MAXIMUM capability of a PE Shelter (PERIOD no argument) so, in otherwords PERFECT 100% infallibly perfect ENERGY DEFENCE, and drugged for 557 HP.
We commenced testing.
One APU killed me in 7 shots.
FFS.
7 Shots, with that kinda defence.
it's a double edged sword and you will not get away with posting only one edge of it on my watch.
SEVEN HLs.
60/105*7 = FOUR SECONDS = DEAD PE.
WITH MAXIMUM ENERGY RESISTS POSSIBLE PERIOD, EVER.
*COUGH*
unless you're a ppu
and yes...i'm getting steamed at some of the absurdity being aired to try to dodge points around here.........................
NERF THE FREAKIN DRONERS RIGHT NOW FFS aslkjdlkjasldkjflkjasdf MAKE IT STOP ... MAKE IT STOP
I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE THEY ARE JUST TOO UBER. PLEASE SOMEONE DO SOMETHING
/set kill_self 1
Originally posted by Ryuben
since when the fuck did a rifle PE have < range to a tank ?
and PE offence < tank when dmg boosted? u never seen a PE useing a disruptor ? or....useing a RoG......or useing a SH
RADE casts dmg bosot sanc before duels so he haxs?
a PE can rip a APU from range hell my commando took 100 off a apu
APU's have greater range then a PE what u been smokeing wake the fuck up.
.fenix can and has taken 17 HL shots (capped HL) he normally takes 11...u show me ONE apu that can take 10 PE shots ...any one ?
When was the last time anyone bothered with a rifle PE? The vast majority of PEs use pistols. And no, I have never seen a PE using a disruptor to any degree of effectiveness. Rade casts DB sanct in duels, so what? This isn't duels remember? You can't pop a shitload of drugs in an OP fight like you can in a duel.
Congrats, you did 100 damage to an APU! I would give you a medal, but I don't have any. Newsflash: I've killed a PPU before, PPUs clearly need better defence.
Snipe a buffed APU and then come back and repeat yourself. APUs don't stand still in OP fights. As soon as you reach the point where you can hit a running APU he can hit you.
And like I said, Moon Striker > at range than a Pain Easer. RoG has less range than CS. Fact is, PEoCron is complete bullshit, it's just you trying to make up an argument on the spot, even though you don't even have a clear reason on why this is a bad idea in the first place?
Originally posted by Scikar
Snipe a buffed APU and then come back and repeat yourself. APUs don't stand still in OP fights. As soon as you reach the point where you can hit a running APU he can hit you.
since on my Rifle PE i have killed buffed apu's omg......how the fuck that happen ... :eek: there was 3 apu's 1 ppu .....:o
only hing is i couldn't touch the PPU
Originally posted by Ryuben
since on my Rifle PE i have killed buffed apu's omg......how the fuck that happen ... :eek: there was 3 apu's 1 ppu .....:o
Your point? You're trying to tell us why it would be PE-o-cron remember?
Originally posted by Scikar
Your point? You're trying to tell us why it would be PE-o-cron remember?
lol now ur jsut being obnoxious, if u thought about it, what class excells at 1 vs 1 ?
the PE, followed by the tank.
now as the game would more or less be 1 vs 1...........
Originally posted by Ryuben
lol now ur jsut being obnoxious, if u thought about it, what class excells at 1 vs 1 ?
the PE, followed by the tank.
now as the game would more or less be 1 vs 1...........
:lol: Ask a PE if he would be happy for tanks to get a little boost to make them even with PEs in duels. Ask Rade, ask QD, ask Dribble Joy, go on, I dare you.
ericdraven
21-11-03, 14:16
EVEN IF it would become PE-o-cron.. so what?
PEs always claim that they have great skills and that great skill is needed to play a PE and that everyone who plays a monk is unskilled and therefore prefers the point-and-click combat.
So i don't see a problem there. All those unskilled monks would reroll to a PE.. and they will suck big time.. remember, they have no skills. So - what's the problem? :D :p
Originally posted by Scikar
:lol: Ask a PE if he would be happy for tanks to get a little boost to make them even with PEs in duels. Ask Rade, ask QD, ask Dribble Joy, go on, I dare you.
LOL
This idea isn't exactly original.
I can't agree with it because I think its half a PPUs job going out the window and not to mention loads of Group and Shelter spells becoming useless.
Although I will accept this in exchange for no changes to Holy Para in it's retail state. I think that's a fair swap :)
/me rins aweh
Problem i've really got with this is that if this does happen (and yes I can see where you and SD are coming from, and I have said it's an imbalance in the past) the next whine will be nerf Heals.
So the order of play would be:
- Parashock (already about to be nerfed)
- Shields (on the table to be nerfed)
- Heals (inevitability)
There wouldn't be much of a sub-class left after that. I'm afraid.
Yes good idea, but no because I'm sick of people targeting my chosen class.
Start on PEs now because THEY are overpowered.
ericdraven
21-11-03, 14:20
I wouldn't agree to a heal nerf tho..
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 14:48
Originally posted by ericdraven
I wouldn't agree to a heal nerf tho..
Neither would I.
And believe me, I will be a road block for the whiners.
However, something like this current issue is warrented, brings balance, whilst still giving the PPU a purpose AND still gives the PPU their defence.
*shrug* :p
However, since so many unskilled people seem to be incapable of killing PPUs currently I would suspect they would try it, you are correct.
We'll worry about that bridge when we come to it, because I'd rather blow THAT bridge up, than let them cross it :p
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
However, since so many unskilled people seem to be incapable of killing PPUs currently I would suspect they would try it, you are correct.
:cries:
Im not unskilled.........
I cant kill a ppu............
Just a small remark, nothing to do with topic really. I dont precast
dmg boost sanctum, I did that in about 10 duels a few months
ago. Im also on a strict 0 drug policy because so many people
were bitching about that drugs were the only reason I could take
em. This has inturn caused shadow to go all over the forums
saying that Im a drug whore and precasts DB sanctum, psi
shields, holy shelters and whatnot. *shrug*
I think everyone agrees that all classes except the ppu are pretty
much balanced, when the apu monks range gets and ppus gets
the sledge I think everything will be just fine. If people then
wants to nerf PE defence and give them something else then
fine, we can look at that later, but its hardly the most pressing
problem.
**edit: oh yah, I dont really consider myself bad either, but I cant
even come close to killing a ppu if he doesnt screw up badly, and
I think Ive tried ever little trick in the book, maybe you can
enlighten me what Im doing wrong QD?o_O
Originally posted by Rade
Just a small remark, nothing to do with topic really. I dont precast
dmg boost sanctum, I did that in about 10 duels a few months
ago. Im also on a strict 0 drug policy because so many people
were bitching about that drugs were the only reason I could take
em. This has inturn caused shadow to go all over the forums
saying that Im a drug whore and precasts DB sanctum, psi
shields, holy shelters and whatnot. *shrug*
Perhaps not, but your fame has grown lol, i had some noobs on uranus a while back trying to copy it lol............didnt quite work :p
This has to be said, is the most stupidest and narrowminded nerf thread ever.
Lower PVM mob damage? Why? A good APU/PE (no PPU) team can take down level two at el farid, including them damn snakes, and the queen, with minimal hassle (<3 zu) A decent PE can solo any outside mob in the game without any hassle at all, standing pretty much toe to toe with a 110/110 grim p, so yeah, lets make it so much easier for me to take down grim c's too, wow, just like a few patches ago when you could pretty much punch a grim to death!!
Self Cast only PPU spells? Wow, such an idiotic idea, belongs in the Darwin Award class. Want to make every PPU go hybrid knowing that no class could take them 1 on 1 because no class except PPU would be able to absorb as much damage as them because they dont have buffs? Want to actually make people think "why am I PPU? Oh, i know, so i can stand behind these people and heal them, such fun, must have been thought up by a semi-decent PE and an APU"
Such a lovely imbalance thread, think I'll stick it where it belongs, in the bin. Maybe QD and SD can stop trying to get this game the way "they" want it, and actually play it instead of spamming the forum 24/7 with "I want the game like this!!" threads :rolleyes:
Well, precasting dmg boost sanctum is pretty powerfull, however
most people will get seriously pissed about it and someone
(kramer?) defined the duelling rules as "before the countdown
has finished you may do anything you could do in a safe zone"
which is a pretty good definition imo since it covers most of the
problems and that would disallow the db sanctum. However it
would allow people to cast a heal during countdown which I dont
think too highly of o_O
**edit: Oh and if you are able then you simply have to try
stealth+db sanctum in OP warfare, watch the enemy force get
panicked :)
Original monk
21-11-03, 15:44
PE-o-cron is possible yeah, its turning into that way yes, 2bad.
You think that every monk is skill-less because he has no aiming to do with he's spells ... for me skill means that you can play atleast as good with every possible char in the game ...
PE's skilled in particular ? not exactly no, the ones that are skilled with a PE will probably be atleast as deadly with a monk or even a tank or a sniperspy.
PE's overpowerd ? nope not at all, but there heals and shelters and deflectors are: add DB and the circle is round ...
IF there ever comes a PE-o-cron, its not yet but its going into that direction, then the balance is fucked up insanely: when the jack off all trades starts owning the specialized char you cant deny that there is sumthing wrong ...
btw have none thought about the thing called pvm and xp caps?
maybe pes shouldnt be able to go 1v1 with a tank since they are soo easy to lvl ?
ie like this monk/tank/pe and spy(should be same as pe but not better since most spys tradeskill)
lots of pvm should give some reward? just one more factor that needs to be thought of
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 15:52
*Reads last page and a half*
Hmm...... should I leave NC balance to most of these people....
.....lexx thinks there is nothing wrong with ppus....
rade thinks ppus should die an ugly death and never be allowed to walk the earth again......
......
hmm
Monkocron complaints are everywhere and the game is not balanced....
Does this particularly bother my battles?
Well no.
I am currently one of these PPUs people bitch about.
Heheh, It's true I can't tip the scale of a fight "single handedly" but I can damned well stick my claws in and make it a struggle where it probably wouldn't have been one before...
lol, leaving PPUs as they are is something that tempts me quite a lot, it sure as hell would be simpler.
Especially if parashock goes.
Man the whines in this thread are amusing :p
didnt say there was nothing wrong with PPU's, just said this is the most idiotic idea ever thought about.
Originally posted by deac
btw have none thought about the thing called pvm and xp caps?
maybe pes shouldnt be able to go 1v1 with a tank since they are soo easy to lvl ?
ie like this monk/tank/pe and spy(should be same as pe but not better since most spys tradeskill)
lots of pvm should give some reward? just one more factor that needs to be thought of
Make PEs harder to level if that is a problem, no class should be
worse than another at cap based on this. I wouldnt mind
releveling as a PE with alot lower exp gains on all skills if for
example Neptune came out.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 16:00
Then fix the problem genious.
I know you damned well can't.
Infact from past suggestions from most of the people disagreeing in here so far, none of you could, nor can.
So comments like those, Lexx, you can keep to yourself, your skill as a PPU is almost borderline retarded in itself, and you don't even VISIT Major op wars from what you post on this forum.
I would, from that point of view be well within my rights to say that you don't even HAVE a valid oppinion on op wars.
I just dont like this idea... i would rather have hybrids back and balanced them... ie blessed shelters and runcast....
the pure ppu would just be to god damn boring.......
Well QD, theres a difference between my personal opinion and
feelings and my ideas when it comes to balance, I hate PPUs and
I want them dead and buried, not just nerfed, GONE. I dont
propose that as a serious balance attempt because its too
unrealistic, so I want to find a solution where a PPU brings as
much to a team battle as any other char, no more, no less.
It's Stage Two of the hybrid syndrome. Stage One is where you deny there's a problem. We're past that. Stage Two is where you acknowledge there's a problem but say No to every idea suggested without suggesting anything yourself. Stage Three is where you whine after you get horribly nerfed by KK. Do you want to be cured Lexx?
I dont visit Op War's because I cant be bothered to because ever since they removed belt drop's, Op Wars are totally pointless.
And my PPU is retarded? 3 day ban not enough for you? all you can do is flame people who disagree with your opinion and try to belittle them with your "i'm the best at PPU PE" arguments, which are totally untrue, you play on Uranus, where tbh, the PVP is no where near on par with Pluto. The "best" on Uranus, would not even compete with the "best" on Pluto, so your claims of being the "best" are untrue in themselves.
As for trying to balance the game? I'll leave that to the experts, not jumped up, failed GM wannabe's like you.
/edit @ above - there is a problem with PPU's dude, its nothing to do with the buffs, its the heal, nuff said.
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I dont visit Op War's because I cant be bothered to because ever since they removed belt drop's, Op Wars are totally pointless.
And my PPU is retarded? 3 day ban not enough for you? all you can do is flame people who disagree with your opinion and try to belittle them with your "i'm the best at PPU PE" arguments, which are totally untrue, you play on Uranus, where tbh, the PVP is no where near on par with Pluto. The "best" on Uranus, would not even compete with the "best" on Pluto, so your claims of being the "best" are untrue in themselves.
As for trying to balance the game? I'll leave that to the experts, not jumped up, failed GM wannabe's like you.
/edit @ above - there is a problem with PPU's dude, its nothing to do with the buffs, its the heal, nuff said.
And you can tell us this from your vast OP war experience, right?
*brings a tray of chill pills* Calm down, back off, theres enough
for everyone...
Original monk
21-11-03, 16:07
Originally posted by deac
maybe pes shouldnt be able to go 1v1 with a tank since they are soo easy to lvl ?
lots of pvm should give some reward? just one more factor that needs to be thought of
indeed, you cap a pe in a day maybe 2 of hard leveling: all gear is cheap as hell (except SA and SF maybe) but for the rest its pisseasy to make a combatviable PE ... Try that again with a tank or a monk, my monks intelligence still isnt capped :/
PE's are good chars to start out with yeah, but why make em have more defenses then a tank ? i dunno, why give em all the goodies they got lately ? why the tanks can rot away in people's memory's ?
Why do they wonna NERF the ppu to dead ? instead of boost other classes (not the PE please)
Why did KK dropped the tanks who they loved that much in the old days like a brick in the water ?
maybe because of the line that Quantumdelta wrote:
"Hmm...... should I leave NC balance to most of these people...."
___
|-> These are the people (nah i dont specify, in contrast i keep it very vagely cause veryone has a small part in it) that also "balanced" the beloved hybrid: and you know how much hybrids there are still around hé: you can count em on 1 hand 8|
enjoy posting, playing people
Lexx throws a bone and QD bites :0
anyway...
Aside from the petty bitching that has gone on far too long IMO. I do agree with 2 things that Lexx said:
1. Don't make Mobs easier to kill. Tanks and APUs have been taking them down solo for long enough. Makes it more of a fight too... I love soloing on my tank.
2. You are near as damnit encouraging monks to go Hybrid again. whether the original Hybrid nerf would continue to suffice remains to be seen with the changes you propose, but early indications say NO.
I already know 2 hybrids who are very good at what they do :) I don't know their setups but their abilities have been proven before my very eyes.
Originally posted by Scikar
And you can tell us this from your vast OP war experience, right?
yes, including op wars pre-rare when MC owned Jerico, and Patriots (I was co-leader at the time) attacked that op fully, and you'd have an Op war every single day, just for fun, and you'd end up dropping your weapon's. I've been in plenty of Op wars. I've also seen PPU's, and I know, without a heal, a PPU will die, as soon as you remove heal from a PPU, its the weakest class there is. Or is my logic not getting into your QD/SD fanboi head?
Originally posted by Lexxuk
without a heal, a PPU will die, as soon as you remove heal from a PPU, its the weakest class there is. Or is my logic not getting into your QD/SD fanboi head?
maybe im wrong but when did the idea of removing the PPUs heal pop up, QD said he would want the heal to remain as it is.
:confused:
errr
Wot about..... Lowering the damage they absorb and lowering the amount of time they last to 60 secs instead of 2 mins????
And maybe increase the cast times of the buffs, so the higher the buff (regular>Blessed>Holy) the longer the cast time (in real terms, as in, not cus its a higher TL, cus its longer anyway)
KK put themselves in this position tho, by not introuducing PA's to all classes at start, the Tanks ruled the game to start with, with the only PA of the game. Now look wot has happened, monks got PA, now they own, perhaps its just a case of lowering the Damage/resistance of all Spells PERIOD! both PPU and Apu.
I personnally dont care too much, but I know that at a recent praccy, the Tank with Buffs was a damage sponge (read previous posts/threads :P) and the apus were not that hard to take down-ish. PE's lasted the longest, and nearly turned the tide of the fight ( Our side had more PE's :D, including me :D)
Anyways, this was destined to happen, cus the balance was right without PA's, but when they put them in, it screwed nc over to the Monk Side
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 16:12
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I dont visit Op War's because I cant be bothered to because ever since they removed belt drop's, Op Wars are totally pointless.
Personal oppinion, not something I'd agree with.
And my PPU is retarded? 3 day ban not enough for you?
What I said might or might not warrent an edit, depends on the moderator which reads and what light they take on it.
I was questioning your validity due to your total lack of large scale (if any...............) PvP.
all you can do is flame people who disagree with your opinion and try to belittle them with your "i'm the best at PPU PE" arguments, which are totally untrue, you play on Uranus, where tbh, the PVP is no where near on par with Pluto.
If people were to actually give real oppinions on why this would work, and I mean valid ones other than PE-o-cron (which isn't balance since tank vs pe is balanced for this scenario excluding stealth so wtf @ that),
The "best" on Uranus, would not even compete with the "best" on Pluto, so your claims of being the "best" are untrue in themselves.
Tell that to XaNToR, Rabbi Fang, Myself, a great deal of uTs, *SOME* Syndicate *SOME* SSC, Some Regulators, most of FLUX(excluding yourself of course), and a few others.
I think a well assembled Uranus Team could whipe the floor with anything thrown at'em in equal numbers.
As for trying to balance the game? I'll leave that to the experts, not jumped up, failed GM wannabe's like you.
See now...
While I questioned your validity due to lack of PvP, or at the very least, large scale PvP.
You went personal.
THAT is edit/ban, if a moderator finds and sees it.
/edit @ above - there is a problem with PPU's dude, its nothing to do with the buffs, its the heal, nuff said.
considering TL3 heal exploit + damage boost doesn't kill most skilled PPUs I would very, very, much question the validity of this comment as well..........
Like I said, you don't do large scale PvP enough...
Holy Heal can't even out heal one single HL, on it's own.
Xian I understand the effort to meet in the middle but this is really one of those all or nothing things.
Generally making the spells more annoying to use wont help or fix anything, sure it might take a tiny bit more skill to fight off HAB Spam than before but I'm sure I could still do it...
The point of Self cast S/D, was that APUs would instantly be reduced to fighting Tanks in Duel Conditions meaning Tanks NATURAL Non-S/Dd defence would help to bring the APUs overpowered Holy Sheltered ass back in line with Tanks at an op fight.
PEs also get a great boost out of this, becoming pretty much what they should be in op wars, equal.
Spies are the only ones it doesn't particularly work for.
holy heal is still present so skilled ppus can still keep a decent team alive, HCS, Anti* Spells are still present.
Parashock and Damage Boost are still present.
Rezz is still present.
It hardly runs the PPU out of jobs or makes the PPU boring.
People seem to forget we have OVER 15 other spells that we need to think about at an op fight.
Originally posted by ezza
maybe im wrong but when did the idea of removing the PPUs heal pop up, QD said he would want the heal to remain as it is.
:confused:
ezza, take two PPU's, with capped spells, shelter/deflector.
take 2 PE's with capped phos pain easers.
Let one PPU use holy shelter/deflector
Let one PPU use blessed shelter/deflector
Let the holy have no heal
Let the blessed have holy heal
Which PPU will die first?
/edit @ above - Xantor got owned by a Pluto tank playing on uranus :rolleyes:
Originally posted by XanX
Anyways, this was destined to happen, cus the balance was right without PA's, but when they put them in, it screwed nc over to the Monk Side
the balance was right before PAo_O
umm i have distinct memories of uber hybrids destroying all those who opposed them:eek:
Originally posted by Lexxuk
yes, including op wars pre-rare when MC owned Jerico, and Patriots (I was co-leader at the time) attacked that op fully, and you'd have an Op war every single day, just for fun, and you'd end up dropping your weapon's. I've been in plenty of Op wars. I've also seen PPU's, and I know, without a heal, a PPU will die, as soon as you remove heal from a PPU, its the weakest class there is. Or is my logic not getting into your QD/SD fanboi head?
We're not balancing NC from months ago. We're balancing it now. Tell me, how is a PPU without heal weaker than a APU? APUs have no heal either AND they don't have shields. Tanks don't have particularly good heals, and PPUs take less damage than tanks do from anything. Your logic isn't logic. Like I said before, you're just suffering from hybrid syndrome. Clearly I missed a stage, part of my ongoing research. You're at the point where you just feed misinformation, like when hinch tried to convince the world that hybrids died to Moon Striker rockets.
Originally posted by Lexxuk
ezza, take two PPU's, with capped spells, shelter/deflector.
take 2 PE's with capped phos pain easers.
Let one PPU use holy shelter/deflector
Let one PPU use blessed shelter/deflector
Let the holy have no heal
Let the blessed have holy heal
Which PPU will die first?
/edit @ above - Xantor got owned by a Pluto tank playing on uranus :rolleyes:
i know that Lexxuk but who the fuck is saying take the heal away, noone so why bring that up
read the post above RE heal/shelter/deflector.
a PPU without a heal, is totally useless, its primary defence isnt in its shelter, its in the fact it can outheal almost any damage. When you see a PPU in PP being shot at by a copbot, that PPU is taking serious damage, but is getting that damage back through its healing power, remove the power of that PPU's heal, and the PPU will no longer be as viable.
/edit @ above - you want to make buffs self cast but leave the PPU with the item that makes the PPU so powerful? I'm just pointing out the imbalance is "not" in the shelter (if it was, Zu and I might not have killed the scorp queen yesterday) its in the heal.
Originally posted by Lexxuk
read the post above RE heal/shelter/deflector.
a PPU without a heal, is totally useless, its primary defence isnt in its shelter, its in the fact it can outheal almost any damage. When you see a PPU in PP being shot at by a copbot, that PPU is taking serious damage, but is getting that damage back through its healing power, remove the power of that PPU's heal, and the PPU will no longer be as viable.
So now you've changed your mind? You've been saying PPUs should be hard to kill, so we suggest something which doesn't even touch PPUs, and you start coming up with ideas to weaken the PPUs defence?
I know that you dont want a useless class original. Lets try to
improve it instead of crap on it.
The JOAT description of PEs is ancient and outdated, virtually no
of the information of that timeis accurate. Imo a SWAT description
of the PE class would be more fitting. Another thing to consider is
that the "average citizen" is what people are about when they
are low-mid level. At cap I see it more like this:
Spy: Legendary hacker or one of the deadliest snipers in the
world, Case from Neuromancer or Tom Berenger from Sniper
(even tho he is a shit actor).
PEs: The average citizen gone hero, John McClane (bruce willis)
in Die Hard, or virtually any agility/pistol fighter from any movie,
the crying freeman for example.
Tanks: Brute force fighters, Arnold in Commando/Predator,
Rambo. The ex-cop in the Gibsons latest triology (god I cant
remember his name...)
Monks: meh, self explanatory. Your average hero D&D wizards.
I'm just pointing out that people are looking in the wrong places for any imbalance that exists, they "always" look for the most obvious item, which is really narrow minded.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 16:23
Scikar that op war story he spun is almost a year, if not, a year old... let alone months...
Originally posted by Original monk
maybe because of the line that Quantumdelta wrote:
"Hmm...... should I leave NC balance to most of these people...."
___
|-> These are the people (nah i dont specify, in contrast i keep it very vagely cause veryone has a small part in it) that also "balanced" the beloved hybrid: and you know how much hybrids there are still around hé: you can count em on 1 hand 8|
enjoy posting, playing people
Exactly.
People like this shouldn't be allowed anywhere near balance.
Syntax-Error
21-11-03, 16:23
i missed loads.. whats the status now..
oo cool. nm i can read it again. :d
From reading these last 10 pages of bullshit, i am now disgusted by the NC "community", FYAD you ignorant people who cant think a little bigger, and are making wild statements.
PE = THEY HAVE A MARIGNALLY BETTER DEFENSE THEN TANKS BECAUSE OF SHELTER, TAKE SHELTER AWAY AND TANKS WITH THEIR CS WILL BEAT 99.5 +- 2% ALL PES. THEIR OFFENSIVE IS BELOW THE TANKS OFFENSIVE AND YOU IGNORANT FOOLS WANT THEM TO BECOME THE UBERSOLDAT NOW?
PPUS = THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING NC PVP UNBALANCED, EXCEPT FOR LEXXUK, BECAUSE HE FOUGHT OP WARS DURING BETA 4 AND EARLY RETAIL.
APUS = WITHOUT PPU DEFENSES THEY ARE BALANCED, THEY CAN KILL YOU QUICK, BUT THEY ALSO CAN DIE JUST AS QUICK.
TANKS = THEY HAVE A GOOD ALL ROUND DEFENSE AND A GOOD OFFENSE, SECOND BEST TO THE APUS, BUT OF COURSE YOU ALL FORGOT ABOUT THEIR ATTACK WHEN LOOKING AT PES DEFENSE.
SPIES = YOU WANT DRONES TO DO ONE SHOT KILLS WHEN YOU CANT EVEN LOCK ON THEIR DRONES? SURE PEOPLE CAN RUN AWAY, BUT THEY CANT HIT YOUR DRONE. NERF DRONES. :rolleyes:
HEY LETS RECAP;
TANKS OFFENSE > PE OFFENSE
TANK DEFENSE < PE DEFENSE (WHEN USING SHELTER, WHICH LASTS 2 MIN, TANK DEFENSE ARE READY TO BEAT SHIT AT ANY TIME, PES NEEDS TO PREPARE)
APU OFFENSE GOOD
APU DEFENSE CRAP
THEY CAN BLOW HOLES IN ATMOSPHERE, BUT DROP FECES IN THEIR FACE THEY DIE.
I SAY TAKE STEALTH AWAY FROM PES, AS IM LOWTECH AND DONT GIVE A SHIT HOW THE HIGH TECH BANDWAGONEERS WILL WHINE ABOUT IT.
There are reasons why i havent posted anything interesting here, ive got things id liek to say on all parts and opinions.
Im not gonna though, cos........it's just not right.
Oath.
QuantumDelta
21-11-03, 16:32
Duder saves the day!!!!!!
I knew back up was coming :p
I went to Op Wars on Uranus, usual stuff, GR in, see allied faction, get killed at the GR, wow, or more usually, be the only person on, get a "outpost x bein hacked" gr there, die (wow)
Or more than usual, actually be there, then find 15 clans against two or three people :rolleyes: (no wonder people are leaving there for Pluto)
reason I dont do op wars on Pluto, I'm generally friendly with FF/Spirit/SS/SSi/Dark etc. so actually going out into an op war against people I'm friendly with = bad idea = me not get my ROG/PA/Perfect DBoost etc.. back when (if) I die :rolleyes:
Youre right QD, NC communty sucks ass, such as that person back in the thread, posting as if he was smoking weed while trying to use his brain.
Originally posted by Duder
Youre right QD, NC communty sucks ass, such as that person back in the thread, posting as if he was smoking weed while trying to use his brain.
thats no way to talk about the thread starter duder
Originally posted by Duder
From reading these last 10 pages of bullshit, i am now disgusted by the NC "community", FYAD you ignorant people who cant think a little bigger, and are making wild statements.
PE = THEY HAVE A MARIGNALLY BETTER DEFENSE THEN TANKS BECAUSE OF SHELTER, TAKE SHELTER AWAY AND TANKS WITH THEIR CS WILL BEAT 99.5 +- 2% ALL PES. THEIR OFFENSIVE IS BELOW THE TANKS OFFENSIVE AND YOU IGNORANT FOOLS WANT THEM TO BECOME THE UBERSOLDAT NOW?
PPUS = THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING NC PVP UNBALANCED, EXCEPT FOR LEXXUK, BECAUSE HE FOUGHT OP WARS DURING BETA 4 AND EARLY RETAIL.
APUS = WITHOUT PPU DEFENSES THEY ARE BALANCED, THEY CAN KILL YOU QUICK, BUT THEY ALSO CAN DIE JUST AS QUICK.
TANKS = THEY HAVE A GOOD ALL ROUND DEFENSE AND A GOOD OFFENSE, SECOND BEST TO THE APUS, BUT OF COURSE YOU ALL FORGOT ABOUT THEIR ATTACK WHEN LOOKING AT PES DEFENSE.
SPIES = YOU WANT DRONES TO DO ONE SHOT KILLS WHEN YOU CANT EVEN LOCK ON THEIR DRONES? SURE PEOPLE CAN RUN AWAY, BUT THEY CANT HIT YOUR DRONE. NERF DRONES. :rolleyes:
HEY LETS RECAP;
TANKS OFFENSE > PE OFFENSE
TANK DEFENSE < PE DEFENSE (WHEN USING SHELTER, WHICH LASTS 2 MIN, TANK DEFENSE ARE READY TO BEAT SHIT AT ANY TIME, PES NEEDS TO PREPARE)
APU OFFENSE GOOD
APU DEFENSE CRAP
THEY CAN BLOW HOLES IN ATMOSPHERE, BUT DROP FECES IN THEIR FACE THEY DIE.
I SAY TAKE STEALTH AWAY FROM PES, AS IM LOWTECH AND DONT GIVE A SHIT HOW THE HIGH TECH BANDWAGONEERS WILL WHINE ABOUT IT.
yeah i agree with the red text stuff, when a PE drops his shelter its kinda like hitting a better made spy:D
yup spot on with the blue text, and i think QDs idea is the right way to go on the ppus(at least to try on the test server at the minimum)
in regards to the green, i think apus should be toned down, maybe the removal of the random damage? or tone the randomness down
in regards to yellow text, its no the PEs defences that bother me, it was when the PEs started being able to use weapons normally set aside for spies(the rare raygun pistol for example)
i have to wonder about the stealth, i know a lot of PEs i would of destroyed if it wasnt for the fact they stealthed off, uber healed then came back to fight me at full health
edit: whats all this crap about not fighting friends, scikar is a friend but i fight him, stigmata same, justin_case also the same, if there freinds they should be able to get other the fact that your friends and realise when your fighting its cos your enemies
Go hit a drom lexxuk, of course PPUs are fine in PvM, but this is a discussion about PPUs ruining PvP, and suddenly everyones talking about PEs Defenses.
Also about taking shelters away will ruin interaction, people use sms to ask for shelters, a macro, like a MACHINE.
And to Ezza, i agree about how PEs are using the RoLH, giving them a uber offense and a marginally better defense then tanks.
KRIMINAL99
21-11-03, 16:49
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
How does this kill player interaction?
Well first of all ppus are support chars and need every support abillity they can get to make a pure support class interesting. What needs to be taken away from them is their uber defenses not removing content that gives them their identity... IMO this kind of idea comes from someone that shouldn't be playing a ppu to begin with. Like someone that doesn't like to die.
And QD Im sorry this isn't aimed at you specifically but...
Alot of PPU's seem to be people that want to be "uber" Like there is this whole thing in this game about people who are so good they are unkillable, when in reality it is impossible. Anyone can die when they are not expecting it, are not ready or just at the top of their game that moment etc. No amount of skill can prevent this. If you look at 90% of the people who have these attitudes, they perpetuate it by spending most of their time in safe zones or with a large group of their friends, and only fighting when they know they probably will win like by say rpking people or maybe killing people they know are new to the game. Then when they die they make rediculous excuses saying it wasn't fair somehow or the odds were terribly against them. And now there is PPU's... which is like the perfect safe heaven for these people. Once they manipulate this view of themselves they just go ppu and its REALLY hard to die.
But this isn't the point of a PPU.
The PPU is for people who like the idea of a support character. So certain types of people can log on, run around keeping their friends alive protecting them etc. Shielding others is a needed feature for people who want to play PPU's because they like the idea of supporting other characters.
The people in the first group are obviously trying to keep their safe heaven by turning the ppu into some kind of rediculous brick wall that doesn't do hardly anything but is perfect for someone to hide behind and act as a figurehead and retain their reputation...
But the truth is they have no business being there to begin with. These types of ideas are rediculous...
Just make PPU support something that doesn't make the end all be all of combat by allowing them to be killed more easily somehow. If they can't run all throughout combat sheltering/deflecting people in the middle of a huge melee and have to hang back a bit or be killed then their sheilds dont cause a problem.
And btw this would waaay overpower PE's and SPecialization was always MEANT to be rewarded in groups.
Couple of days ago, Darken (PPU) and I were playing "kill the newb" cept for the killing, just the scaring, after getting rid of a box exploiting tank, Dark joined in and sent down a APU, after I killed the APU (who would have been buffed) his PPU came down, and rezzed him. Then it ended up as a draw, not because of the shelter but because of the heal, if the shelter was the imbalance, I wouldnt have been able to kill the APU, if the APU was healing with a holy heal, I wouldnt have been able to kill the APU, if Darken wasnt healing me, the APU might have been able to kill me (cept he used fire and my PE's almost immune to the stuff).
In the end, it was a draw, simply because of the heal, not because of the shelter/deflector, if the shelter/deflector was self buff only, the APU would hit the deck in 2 seconds flat, the PE's self cast shelter would be able to absorb the Energy damage, as well as the fire damage easily, the only way for the APU to win, would be to have a PPU stuck up its arse healing it, whilst a PE with a PPU stuck up its arse healing it = win 100% of the time.
Original monk
21-11-03, 16:51
sorry but about that PE part: a tank can shoot a PE to 4 hp then he stealths away, behind the corner he gives emself a heal and about 10 seconds later hes back shooting up he's libby in the tanks back, hence and repeat x 100 untill the tank is gone cause he's bored and logs he's PPU to paraspam and DB the annoying PE till again that PE left cause of boredom, maybe logging he's apu :P to antibuff and so on :)
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