View Full Version : My thoughts on monks
Ive been thinking about the whole monk issue and to be honest I dont see how its going to be balanced with ppus the way they are even if they nerf para and ressurect I dont see how thats going to change things, make pvp less annoying, but will still result in pvp and opwars being decided by how many or how good your ppus are not by the skills of combat characters.
Now the only thing I can think of is to get rid of the PPU class altogether along with all PPU spells above shelter, now with PPUs gone APUs will have to be sorted because they die too easy on their own, I think that they should then be allowed to use passive spells (now that only basic shelter is available) without the damage reduction that KK have on APUs with PPU points allocated. But to balance APU damage would have to be reduced to go along with the higher defense.
To be honest this may be a stupid idea but I dont see a way to balance monks and this is the best I can come up with.
Mumblyfish
20-11-03, 22:38
Delete an entire class. Right. Great. Didn't think that through, did you?
Make shelter/deflector self-castable only, and triple the cast time, so that an antibuffed PPU feels the pain. Give a cast time of approx 5 seconds for a Holy Paralysis, don't remove it. If possible, make it so that a PPU monk is resurrection is left with 0 defense (as in no resists, no shelter/deflector, no armour bonus) during the rezz cast, everything going back to normal once the target is resurrected. This means that resurrection can only happen once the area is "safe".
That makes the PPU a hugely important supportive role, as it should be. However, the PPU would have to "hang back", so to speak, so that he/she won't get antibuffed. That's what a support class should be. Out of harm's way.
Well, that's all I can think of.
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 22:38
I agree, nerfing para/res, etc... won't solve the problem of PPUs being too important. But I don't think PPus have to be deleted.
I think it's POSSIBLE to balance them. They aren't really imbalanced, just overimportant.
As for apus.......hrmmm. They can be more easily balanced. As for dying too easily alone, that's true. They don't have good healing, or stealth, or the high HP/resists of a tank.
I was thinking they should get an elemental barrier that reduces offense and increases defense by a specific ratio. This could be uses for escape or if their in trouble(but they would still die to high # of people). Their could be different levels of this "spell".
Scikar made me think of an idea. He said passive doesn't always mean defense. So why not "change" ppus and revamp them? How about making them the summoners of neocron? Summoning can be considered a "passive" form of offense.
But still, that wold make alot of current ppus unhappy. :(
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 22:40
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Delete an entire class. Right. Great. Didn't think that through, did you?
Make shelter/deflector self-castable only, and triple the cast time, so that an antibuffed PPU feels the pain. Give a cast time of approx 5 seconds for a Holy Paralysis, don't remove it. If possible, make it so that a PPU monk is resurrection is left with 0 defense (as in no resists, no shelter/deflector, no armour bonus) during the rezz cast, everything going back to normal once the target is resurrected. This means that resurrection can only happen once the area is "safe".
That makes the PPU a hugely important supportive role, as it should be. However, the PPU would have to "hang back", so to speak, so that he/she won't get antibuffed. That's what a support class should be. Out of harm's way.
Well, that's all I can think of.
Self/cast idea is GREAT. If you take some time to think about it, it really does balance out alot of things.
However PVP damage overall would have to be reduced a bit. (i'm sure the devs can code that easy. Don't runners have a "natural" defense equal to 50 star mobs? So make taht defense a bit higher)
Secondly, making shelter last 3x as long isn't really fair. Any decent apu will be ripping apart the ppus then if shelter lasted that long. And then HAB would become overpowered as well.
I meant delete as in make all points reallocatable not as in delete all ppu characters.
Mumblyfish
20-11-03, 22:43
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Secondly, making shelter last 3x as long isn't really fair. Any decent apu will be ripping apart the ppus then if shelter lasted that long. And then HAB would become overpowered as well.
Not really. Like I said, PPUs should not, as medics, be in the line of fire. If they are, they should die. Fast. Tanks, APUs... it's YOUR role to protect your support characters through any means possible. Also, if an APU manages to get through your defense to your PPU, no offense, you're terrible. Bear in mind the APU WON'T BE BUFFED. An APU, also a support character, who is foolish enough to run blindly to the enemy will die fast.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
How about making them the summoners of neocron? Summoning can be considered a "passive" form of offense.
They tried that...they gave us soul clusters...:(
PPUs are over powered 1v1 and 2v2 in big OP fights PPU arent impossible to deal with.
PPUs are also not as important in OPS as people go on about, in a certain OP fight the other week we had 2 ppus for the 15 of us and beat a group of 20 with 6 ppus. Holy Antibuff wins u OP fights, not the PPU's :D
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 22:51
Originally posted by Cyphor
They tried that...they gave us soul clusters...:(
Yes but they didn't REALLY try it. Soul cluster wasn't too well thought-out. :p
It's not just op wars Mumbly, small skirmish the apu could easily kill the ppu. He could easy kill him 1v1 then.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Not really. Like I said, PPUs should not, as medics, be in the line of fire. If they are, they should die. Fast. Tanks, APUs... it's YOUR role to protect your support characters through any means possible. Also, if an APU manages to get through your defense to your PPU, no offense, you're terrible. Bear in mind the APU WON'T BE BUFFED. An APU, also a support character, who is foolish enough to run blindly to the enemy will die fast.
That's a good point. Currently it would be difficult to stop buffed enemies running through your lines to kill the PPU, but under this system, monks would be forced to play their actual support role, increasing the usefulness of tanks, PEs and spies.
Mumblyfish
20-11-03, 22:53
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
It's not just op wars Mumbly, small skirmish the apu could easily kill the ppu. He could easy kill him 1v1 then.
1v1, soldier should kill the medic. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 22:54
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
1v1, soldier should kill the medic. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Well that's not really fair if the PPU can't fight back. In that case give them some escape spell as well. Leaving them TOTALLY helpless 1v1 to an apu is a bit uhhh unfair?
No class should be guaranteed mincemeat to another class 1v1.
The only way to make that fair is to make APUs weak 1v1 too, so that an APU is dead meat 1v1 vs a tank. And some people won't like that.
SamuraiPizzaCat
20-11-03, 22:58
another one of these frikken threads?:rolleyes:
MjukisDjur
20-11-03, 22:58
Lets wait and see how the patch on testserver looks when it hits retail. It might even balance things out a little bit...
another one of thse frikken posts?:rolleyes:
hudsonbeck
20-11-03, 23:00
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think it's POSSIBLE to balance them. They aren't really imbalanced, just overimportant.
Shadow.... this statement struck me. I think you hit the nail on the head with that wonderful display of words;)
Care if i use it in a new sig?
Hudson
SamuraiPizzaCat
20-11-03, 23:01
/set smack_sickar 1
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 23:06
Originally posted by hudsonbeck
Shadow.... this statement struck me. I think you hit the nail on the head with that wonderful display of words;)
Care if i use it in a new sig?
Hudson
Yes, you may regale the boards with a piece of my wisdom in your sig.
:o
but you see if they did that all they have to do is make defense weaker on the ppu . . and give them some small attack spells. .. spark spells that look like fusion shots but only a pure white light . .. ground sparks that shoots out lil bolts of energy that runalong the ground to the target ... . and in turn Apu should be given vampire type spells . .
You see I think it's very lame that every class can heal and attack but the psi they try and say you can do one or the other or you're penalized ... both types of PSI should have the ability to do some minior healing .. or attack ... they would still need to be balanced out but I think it would be a step in the right direction .. . and neither side of the psi would have to reset up their points cause the spells would just need to be added and the modules outputs adjusted . ..
Originally posted by SamuraiPizzaCat
/set smack_sickar 1
If you don't have anything constructive to post, don't post.
Shadow Dancer
20-11-03, 23:18
Originally posted by amfest
but you see if they did that all they have to do is make defense weaker on the ppu . . and give them some small attack spells. .. spark spells that look like fusion shots but only a pure white light . .. ground sparks that shoots out lil bolts of energy that runalong the ground to the target ... . and in turn Apu should be given vampire type spells . .
You see I think it's very lame that every class can heal and attack but the psi they try and say you can do one or the other or you're penalized ... both types of PSI should have the ability to do some minior healing .. or attack ... they would still need to be balanced out but I think it would be a step in the right direction .. . and neither side of the psi would have to reset up their points cause the spells would just need to be added and the modules outputs adjusted . ..
IF you give ppus some type of offence, that means that the should be killable 1v1 then.
And i'm sure no ppus would go for that. :p
which is the problem .. . the whole thing is already screwed up . . all medics are infected with the unkillable syndrome .. i say we vaccinate them :p
Why not just make it so the healers and the super big-damage dealers (PPUs and APUs in this case) are quite weak and go down fast? Keep heals and buffs the way they are, but remove shelters and deflectors. Maybe then tanks wouldn't be so outdated as they would have the best armor (due to CON), have pretty good damage, and act as a nice damage sponge.
(Just for reference, I'm basing this off my experience in FFXI thusfar. As a warrior, Black Mages outdamage me, but they get beaten down really fast if they aren't careful. I act as the damage sponge. White Mages are great at healing, but they don't have any "block 50% of all damage" spells either. They too are weak and need a damage sponge (again, me) to protect them in case a mob aggros on them.)
It would enhance inter-reliance amongst teams and IMO would improve gameplay.
--Stryfe
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 01:03
Except this isn't turn based, it's a fast paced FPS. So making PPUs require tanks to be damage sponges, isn't really gonna work.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Except this isn't turn based, it's a fast paced FPS. So making PPUs require tanks to be damage sponges, isn't really gonna work. It can if QD's idea about shields is implemented.
--Stryfe
And besides, FFXI's battle system isn't true turn-based. You have a delay on a given weapon, and that delay determines how often you can attack. It's similar to the system used for ROF in NC. Except that it's determined solely by the weapon, not the combination of skills and quality of said weapon. On top of that, you can use spells and special attacks whenever you want (assuming that you *can* use them).
Shadow Dancer
21-11-03, 02:10
Yes but you're fighting computer controlled enemies in FF. :p
I dont entirely like the idea of totally getting rid of PPU class, for one that would surely mean the end of team leveling in most places, namely caves.....and with no passice spells past basic shelter that would mean no more rezz period, and thats just unacceptable =P, I would find it impossible to beleive ANYONE saying they would honestly not mind if ressurection was removed
However even with the new test server patch and increased mana costs on para it still would be spammable by any means, I was kind of thinking and this might not be such a bad idea....
they make medkits in stacks of 3
Psi boosters in stacks of 3
Stamina booster 2 in stacks of 4
I think they should implement some sort of stacked antidote drug and anti shock drug...at least if Im gettin spammed i dont have to hit F2 every 10 seconds to put a new drug in my belt when i only have like one or two open slots anyways, it would surely help imho....
and with no passice spells past basic shelter that would mean no more rezz period, and thats just unacceptable =P
People are too spoiled on rez ... back in beta there wasn't too many peopel that i knew that had rez since it required EPU and there really wasn't anything till dmg boost and rez ...and those were high in the point count. We were just a hell of a lot more careful when Leveling and helped each other out alot. Not like now ... People just run straight into the high lvl mobs when there is a ppu about cause they know they'll get rez'd ... I think it's kinda lame . . no real penalty for death :(
Originally posted by amfest
People are too spoiled on rez ... back in beta there wasn't too many peopel that i knew that had rez since it required EPU and there really wasn't anything till dmg boost and rez ...and those were high in the point count. We were just a hell of a lot more careful when Leveling and helped each other out alot. Not like now ... People just run straight into the high lvl mobs when there is a ppu about cause they know they'll get rez'd ... I think it's kinda lame . . no real penalty for death :(
spoiled? obviously you have no real hi value mps and if you did you more than likely did not put blood sweat and tears into them....everytime i die and say my DS or psi core, herc or marine drops i lose up to 30% quality......and when I level i level hardcore that equals alot of dying at times.....you do the math....do YOU really have the time or patience to go to MC5 monthly??????
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Yes but you're fighting computer controlled enemies in FF. :p Which, I'd like to point out, are a hell of a lot smarter than NC enemies, even at the lowest level. :p You know how a CopBot will negotiate terrain and come through buildings to get to someone? Well a level 1 mob in FFXI does that, too. See a difference? :p
Also not that I'm not saying that we should simply rip it out of FFXI and put it directly into NC. It would need tweaking as NC is more fast-paced (most of the time) than FFXI. That, and as you said, there's the difference of PvP vs. PvM.
@extract: It wouldn't be such a problem if they simply lowered the quality loss on the imps popping out after death. I think it's BS that the "rare" imps such as MC5s and the other special chips take such a huge hit on death. Did I mention that it's BS?
--Stryfe
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