View Full Version : Rare barrels cost too much mana.
Okay, so I've been playing my APU on Uranus, and I managed to get a hold of a four slot holy thunderstorm. I was pretty excited after finally being able to use it tonight with some drugs and buffing, so I went to the Chaos caves to give it a try. The damage increase is very nice, but it eats up WAY too much mana. I can only cast it twice before I have to eat a psi booster, and its incredibly slow casting time (I'm sure it'll get faster with time, but its still slower than any other barrel I've used before). I do considerably more damage with the TL 76 lightning barrel than I did with the rare one, which IMO, is wrong.
Anyone else agree, or am I just nuts?
Mumblyfish
16-11-03, 17:40
To me, the rare barrels were designed for single cast, then run like the wind. Very useful for PvP. And they work great for that purpose.
ericdraven
16-11-03, 23:23
Plain and simple - the rare barrels suck.
Rare barrles need to last long when cast, have a little more area effect (maybe a bit more range too, just enough so you don't get hit when you cast it), and do considerablely more damage (the fire/posion barrel more then the energy).
yea something is a bit wrong imo...... even with an apu kami in i only get 35 casts per minute and the spell is capped...... not to mention that it takes too much mana....... i think they should make it cost less but then again i am an apu monk...
Mumblyfish
17-11-03, 00:26
Originally posted by zAo
not to mention that it takes too much mana.......
What's your PPW? If you're one of these "must reach 500 billion APU" builds, it's your own fault.
Drop some APU and invest in PPW.
The only reason is because they do huge dmg, there fine like they are.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 00:39
Originally posted by ericdraven
Plain and simple - the rare barrels suck.
I kinda agree.
PvP wise, the rare barrels are crap unless you're fighting a pair of idiots.
PvM wise, holy firestorm is GODLY!!!!!!!!!!!
But overall pestilence and thunderstorm are useless while firestorm is useless for PvP and kickass for PvM.
Who the fuck wants to cast Holy pestilence more than once? Forget mana you will be dead before the 2nd cast gets off.
ericdraven
17-11-03, 00:41
Originally posted by KimmyG
Who the fuck wants to cast Holy pestilence more than once? Forget mana you will be dead before the 2nd cast gets off.
Sure, and people with POR 0 deserve nothing else.
Originally posted by ericdraven
Sure, and people with POR 0 deserve nothing else.
Cap your POR, more than 2-3 stacks and you are not fairing well.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 00:45
Originally posted by ericdraven
Sure, and people with POR 0 deserve nothing else.
I agree. I've never died to pestilence in an op fight. Because antidote is fast enough to take one stack away. And I can just ask for a heal since poison is 24 second DOT.
Pestilence is a joke.
Originally posted by KimmyG
Cap your POR, more than 2-3 stacks and you are not fairing well.
CAP?
I've tested pestilence EXTENSIVELY. At one point I had 50 natural poison resist and light poison belt. Pestilence did about 7-8 damage to me per tick. One stack. I doubt multiplying that by 3 is gonna make me run.
And that's without being healed or using antidotes.
This is a capped pestilence btw.
ericdraven
17-11-03, 00:47
Probably he "tested" it before the 145 poison nerfs.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 00:49
IIRC pestilence was released at the same time as the "big" poison nerf.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I've tested pestilence EXTENSIVELY. At one point I had 50 natural poison resist and light poison belt. Pestilence did about 7-8 damage to me per tick. One stack. I doubt multiplying that by 3 is gonna make me run.
And that's without being healed or using antidotes.
Read the forum rules (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=NeoContent&file=index&pageID=27#forumrules)
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If you want to debate a point, do it without flaming someone.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:04
Originally posted by KimmyG
Edited for consistency - Ran
The only thing not capped about my apu is int. And yes pestilence is capped.
Originally posted by KimmyG
A.) Not to many spec for nice poision and whoever runs about pvping with a poisin belt on im not gonna give them 2 much thought.
That's very nice. Who cares? My point about the resistance and the belt was to SOLEY counteract your point that with CAPPED por 2-3 stacks will send you running.
Originally posted by KimmyG
b.) I have busted a few pestilences in pepper and it has dropped several people and it sure as hell will create a buffer zone if people are sitting to close to the zone line.
Ahh yes, pepper park. Nuff said. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by KimmyG
9-10 good for you testing. My thesis is based on bodies droping fuck test.
My tests are strictly to gauge damage. In "real" pvp pestilence is even less effective IMO. And I don't give a damn if you dropped the bodies of a few noobs who didn't carry any drugs.
When was the last time my apu with 300 health and 0 por died to my opponent's pestilence? Oh that's right, never. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
The only thing not capped about my apu is int. And yes pestilence is capped.
I have seen recent screens of your char and psi wasn;t near capped. So if finally capped it congrats but I doubt it.
And my counter was pest sends everyone running.
Actually Kimmy does have a point there. Pestilence doesn't kill many people, but you don't see people running into Pestilence barrels do you?
what my point is pest is sure as hell alot strong than beam. ANd beam rapes the day. So yea better hope there is a ppu about or you are a ozzy style drug bitch.
You may be right if you spec POR in your resist it may not hurt in the fatal lvl but who spec good POR.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:14
Originally posted by KimmyG
I have seen recent screens of your char and psi wasn;t near capped.
My PSI has fluctuated from 100 to 97 to 100 several times. It was capped for months. What the hell are you talking about?
Show me these "Screens". :rolleyes:
Originally posted by KimmyG
So if finally capped it congrats but I doubt it.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by KimmyG
And my counter was pest sends everyone running.
Yea so? When you shoot someone, they try and dodge. It's human nature to move out of harm's way.
That doesn't mean pestilence is effective.
Originally posted by KimmyG
what my point is pest is sure as hell alot strong than beam. ANd beam rapes the day.
Pest is "slightly" stronger than beam. Secondly, beam can be stacked quickly and easily on an opponent. You can't exactly spam a 35 rof 150 mana barrel the same way.
And you think beam rapes the day? Now I REALLY disagree with you.
Now I disagree with you. Toxic beam damage is pants. Pop an antidote as soon as you see his hands light up green, and by the time you have enough stacks on you to hurt the antidote takes them all away. All I agree with is that people don't run into Pestilence. Poison doesn't really hurt that much at all.
Read the forum rules (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=NeoContent&file=index&pageID=27#forumrules)
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There will be no insulting, harassing or 'flaming' other forum members or clans."
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:23
Read the forum rules (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=NeoContent&file=index&pageID=27#forumrules)
"Acceptable Ways To Deal With Insults And Attacks
There will be no insulting, harassing or 'flaming' other forum members or clans. This also includes responding to such behaviour."
The only thing I claimed I was skilled at is killing PPUs. I've even said time and time again I have bad aim and i'm not good at taking on other classes 1v1.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
The only thing I claimed I was skilled at is killing PPUs. I've even said time and time again I have bad aim and i'm not good at taking on other classes 1v1.
I am best PPU killer ever
The most powerful APU EVER!
Say what?
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:27
Originally posted by KimmyG
I am best PPU killer ever
The most powerful APU EVER!
Right. Where does that say i'm the most skilled? Or a PvP god? The most powerful apu ever is just a stupid title anyway for laughs. That doesn't even mean that I think i'm better than other people.
Originally posted by KimmyG
Say what?
There's nothing more to say since you ran out of arguements and resorted to silly flames. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Right. Where does that say i'm the most skilled? Or a PvP god? The most powerful apu ever is just a stupid title anyway for laughs. That doesn't even mean that I think i'm better than other people.
That plus the way you talk in your posts.
Remember you shad when you first had your rare spells outside emmerson or what is that fac called west of NC :p :lol:
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:35
Originally posted by KimmyG
That plus the way you talk in your posts.
The way I talk in my posts? BS, now you're just reaching for any excuse because you don't have anything else to say.
NOT ONCE have I ever said that i'm better than someone, like 3204823047023480% of this forum does. Puh leeze. :rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
17-11-03, 01:35
Another "balance" thread gone down the pan.
Nice flames Kimmy, keep the insecurity locked up next time okay?
You can debate the points, but turning everything into a fire fight is counter productive.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 01:36
Originally posted by t0tt3
Remember you shad when you first had your rare spells outside emmerson or what is that fac called west of NC :p :lol:
Simmons, I can't believe you forgot. Is that when I was gonna join PIMP and I killed everyone with firestorm? And Kramer DMed me saying "what the hell was that?"
LoL
Eric Cobalt
17-11-03, 01:37
The Damage of the rare barrels is ok, really ok.. just use the holy firestorm in chaos cave, more frequence/damage would overpower that spell...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Another "balance" thread gone down the pan.
Nice flames Kimmy, keep the insecurity locked up next time okay?
You can debate the points, but turning everything into a fire fight is counter productive.
When I see someone say 7-8 per tick of pest that warrents nothing more than a flame.
Noone can tell me you can sit there and casts pest then sit in it and cast it again let the pos stafck up and live it.
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 02:02
Originally posted by KimmyG
When I see someone say 7-8 per tick of pest that warrents nothing more than a flame.
This is actual tests I have done. And I DID sit in it for multiple stacks and still live.
If I still had my capped APU I would take screenies of the test.
Maybe if poison damage was more front loaded(all the damage in 5 seconds instead of 24) it would be ok.
Heavyporker
17-11-03, 03:09
I have to agree here - Holy Pestilence sucks in PvM, I won't even think about it in PvP.
Plus, if you want to scare people, use Holy Toxic Barrel. Looks the same, casts faster with less mana, and damn if it can't stack.
Haven't built a Holy Firestorm, so I can't comment.
Now, Holy Thunderstorm... it's a PoS.
Now, for those tech-parted spells to be viable in any case - they need to LAST LONGER once cast. Simply put, at least 3 to 4 times longer than a normal barrel. Period. Then you won't have to jigger with the damage or cast speed.
ghandisfury
17-11-03, 04:39
I'm not going to be arsed by reading the entire thread.....but my two cents are barrels cost too much mana. They need to cut in in half at least. Keep the cast time the way it is, and keep the range the way it is, just cut mana comsumption by half. kthxby.
@moderators. How many times will Kimmy be allowed to flame before you give him the boot?
I think the last thing this game needs is a APU boost.
Doesn't anyone use boosters. Cast spell pop a booster cast again.
@ghandisfury why dont you mind your own affairs.
ghandisfury
17-11-03, 06:31
Originally posted by KimmyG
@ghandisfury why dont you mind your own affairs.
Maybe you don't keep up on current events but this is a "forum". The day you make your personal private forum is the day I *will not* be involved in "your business". Seems how that day is not this day..............I will let it be known that you need to be banned for your extreame lack of self control. Infact I'm supprised the mods haven't done it already (I'm sure it's just a matter of time now). It's no matter, I have put you on ignore now.....you're not worth my time, or anybody elses.
To stay on topic :angel: In an effort to make rare barrels PvM as well as PvP I think the only fair thing to do would be reduce mana cost by atleast 50%. With range and cast time restraints I see no reason for the insane mana cost.
Please stop ruining my thread guys. :(
Anyways, I haven't gotten a hold of Holy Firestorm yet, so I'll see how that fares in PvM when/if I can get one.
As far as my mana goes, I have a pool of around 320 with 100 in PSI power, and even with boosters it's still very costly and slow to cast. The overall damage over time by the Holy Thunderstorm compared to the TL 76 holy energy barrel is total turd. I don't really think lowing the mana cost and upping the cast speed would cause a further imbalance in APUs, since barrels are only really useful in PvM (in my experience anyways).
Originally posted by SovKhan
I think the last thing this game needs is a APU boost.
To true, Firestorm rules in the cave as it is, Poison is kewl if they are running in it. It has its uses... I've used it enough times.
They may take a long time to cast and lots of man... so? There worth it at the right time.
*sighs @ KimmyG*
SD might be..... but he ain't flammed half as much as u :)
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 09:30
Originally posted by Lanigav
Please stop ruining my thread guys. :(
Right, because i'm the one flaming right? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Lanigav
Anyways, I haven't gotten a hold of Holy Firestorm yet, so I'll see how that fares in PvM when/if I can get one.
It's godly. Please don't let the poor Thunderstorm get you down. Firestorm has better AOE and much better damage. With my firestorm 2-3 casts clears an entire room in the chaos caves, that's extremely quick.
Originally posted by Lanigav
I don't really think lowing the mana cost and upping the cast speed would cause a further imbalance in APUs, since barrels are only really useful in PvM (in my experience anyways).
Hrmm.
I think the mana cost should stay. I think to make it more useful in pvp and just in general, the RoF should be increased.
Originally posted by Birkoff
SD might be..... but he ain't flammed half as much as u :)
I might be what?
well last night at tezla we fought ss/ssi and god damn barrels owned in the narrow pasage to the hackroom......
ppl didnt use anything else than tank aoe and barrels... a diffrent fight for once...
we made it all the way to the 2nd gogu but then our tank line broke and they could rush us :(
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I might be what?
Annoying....... sometimes?
Shadow Dancer
17-11-03, 11:34
nevermind
Right, because i'm the one flaming right?
Nah, that wasn't directed at anyone specifically. ;)
ericdraven
17-11-03, 16:00
Originally posted by Lanigav
Nah, that wasn't directed at anyone specifically. ;)
But it's interesting to see that he did reply to this.. as only one... :D
Originally posted by Lanigav
As far as my mana goes, I have a pool of around 320 with 100 in PSI power, and even with boosters it's still very costly and slow to cast. The overall damage over time by the Holy Thunderstorm compared to the TL 76 holy energy barrel is total turd. I don't really think lowing the mana cost and upping the cast speed would cause a further imbalance in APUs, since barrels are only really useful in PvM (in my experience anyways).
Even before I capped in the caves I would ushally bust a Holy thunderstorm then switch to a energy barrel and drop a few of those. U should have enough mana to dump one rare and 3-4 barrels then hit a booster and sit back.
Anyway if there is a problem with barrels its the cast time not mana. I would ushaly end up using just my holy energy barrel cause I could dump alot more alot faster than the rares.
GOOD! I've always hated the bloody things anyway.
You can even kill people with LEs in!!! You only need a few of those cast to wipe out a whole group of people in a small area...
Eric Cobalt
18-11-03, 07:37
Originally posted by Harch
You can even kill people with LEs in!!!
[Edited - Do not post exploits]
I don't even use the things. You're much better off with capped Holy barrels. Think about it:
Using my full PSI Pool I can do 608-2106 energy damage x 9 using the Crahn Holy Energy Barrel for a theoretical maximum of
5472-18954 energy damage.
Using my full PSI Pool I can do 2101-7274 energy damage x 3 using the Crahn Holy Thunderstorm for a theoretical maximum of
6303-21822 energy damage.
So you would *think*, hey, use the rare barrels, right? Well both those scenarios assume you cap the stats on both spells. Capping the damage on a TL 107 APU spell pretty much requires a PSI 3 boost or a Kami chip (both of which I would hate to use). So you never really hit the theoretical cap of damage on the rare barrels.
Also, a much better combination is to have a half a dozen non-rare barrels out doing damage and still have half your PSI pool to cast another spell (HL, FA, etc).
There are a bunch of other reasons not to use the rare barrels as well, but I think these are the two biggest and most obvious ones.
Heavyporker
18-11-03, 09:53
I don't want damage or RoF upped or mana lowered on rare barrels, what's wrong with making the rare barrels last about 2 to 3x as long as regular barrels?!
Shadow Dancer
18-11-03, 15:27
Originally posted by Heavyporker
I don't want damage or RoF upped or mana lowered on rare barrels, what's wrong with making the rare barrels last about 2 to 3x as long as regular barrels?!
That'll be good for PvM, but the point is that for PvP once the enemy sees it they move out of the way. I guess making it last longer would be good for keeping enemies at bay in PvP, but it seriously needs a range increase.
And it's a bit obvious to tell when someone's about to cast a rare barrel, with it's rof you can avoid it if you're quick and not even get hit at all.
The mana cost ensures it can't be spammed, so it should have higher frequency.
Heavyporker
18-11-03, 18:26
MMmh - well, there's some sort of barrel range increase, so that's off the table in this discussion. And yes, keeping them AT BAY with a long lasting barrel *would* be good, right? I dunno about higher RoF on the barrel. Just how much higher would it go to have to be useful?. I can see it now - *news! news! KK increases rof on rare barrels by 5/min! Skillless whiners slam KK and APUs on grounds of overpowered!*
Promethius
18-11-03, 19:00
Didn't bother reading anyof the posts due to extreme laziness dissorder.
But The title i did read. I've never liked ANY of the rare barrels due to the huge mana costs and the slow RoF. I've noticed the lower barrels o more dmg because you can stack them alot more and fora fraction of the mana cost.
Also along teh same lines is the catharsis sanctum. That takes way to much mana to cast..as in my entire pool. Which i think should be reduced or make the sanctum last longer.
Or they could just come out with the crahn epic glove now and we'd all shut up =P
Originally posted by Lanigav
Okay, so I've been playing my APU on Uranus, and I managed to get a hold of a four slot holy thunderstorm. I was pretty excited after finally being able to use it tonight with some drugs and buffing, so I went to the Chaos caves to give it a try. The damage increase is very nice, but it eats up WAY too much mana. I can only cast it twice before I have to eat a psi booster, and its incredibly slow casting time (I'm sure it'll get faster with time, but its still slower than any other barrel I've used before). I do considerably more damage with the TL 76 lightning barrel than I did with the rare one, which IMO, is wrong.
Anyone else agree, or am I just nuts?
I don't really think so, it should be as it is, or you could have APUs in an OP war barreling the enterances all the time stopping people going in, I know it already happens, but not for the whole OP war. they aren't really ment to be cast loads of times in one spot to you can wipe out any thing that will come there with out really tring.
Heavyporker
19-11-03, 07:15
oh, bull. everyone got a damn good chance running past the barrel in between those slowass ticks.
•Super|\|ova•
19-11-03, 12:40
They are fine. I don't like the idea to make the damn monks any better than they already are. Hell, why don't give PPUs a group resurrection spell... :rolleyes:
Have you even used one, or is that just generic monk bashing?
Like others have said, if you die from a barrel, its either because you run like a snail, or you get caught in one while hunting in a cave. I don't think increasing their cast frequency and/or reducing their mana cost would change that at all, especially since they have very limited range.
•Super|\|ova•
19-11-03, 17:10
Originally posted by Lanigav
Have you even used one, or is that just generic monk bashing?
Like others have said, if you die from a barrel, its either because you run like a snail, or you get caught in one while hunting in a cave. I don't think increasing their cast frequency and/or reducing their mana cost would change that at all, especially since they have very limited range.
I've capped an APU and played with it for many months. I know how it is.
Are you saying you don't understand why they call this game a monk-o-cron? Or haven't you even been in an OPfight? Why should we courage to people keep their monks and maybe even rerolling to monks when they are already making the game so boring!?
//Edit: Oh, and about 2 weeks ago I rerolled my APU to melee tank (yes, now I have 2 tanks on Pluto :lol: ) since I don't like the situation we still have. Go to an random OPfight and count the monks... then count the other classes. You go and do the maths yourself.
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