View Full Version : KK can we get an official response on the Monk-a-cron situation?
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 06:39
Can mods sticky this? I know this seems like another monk nerf thread, but it's not. I simply want KK to respond. Whether it's to say they are aware of the problem but will not discuss details, or whether they don't think there's a problem at all. But I think KK should make a response on this.
Please KK please?
Everyone wants to know. *****
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 06:45
Originally posted by Taure
Everyone wants to know. *****
Exactly. I'm sure all the people who don't think there's a problem want to know as well.
And it would help to tone down the excess monk threads.
Please tell us KK, I don't want to make any more monkie threads if you already have something planned.
MayhemMike
08-11-03, 07:07
I want them to nerf monks, then i will be the only apu on pluto again! ya!
Originally posted by MayhemMike
I want them to nerf monks, then i will be the only apu on pluto again! ya!
Lol, I remember that. Everyone was a hybrid, and you were the ONLY apu arround. Now where ever you look there is an APU. Starting to feel traped by alll the monks. GAH!!!
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 07:13
I was the first apu before mike, :p.
I honestly only remember me, mike, and gostly as the "main" apus when apus first were around.
Even before the damage percent increase from 368% i remember being apu. :p However cr@sh was apu before me back then.
MayhemMike
08-11-03, 07:17
ya but you are a noob :rolleyes:
also back then was pointless to be apu, you could cast so fast that it wouldn't register it on the other player >_<
drop parashock
remove invulnerability of neocron's healer class
balanced defense/offense of apu, or just make hybrids viable but not overpowered
what has to be done, but seemingly cant be
Originally posted by g0rt
just make hybrids viable but not overpowered
they are.
ppl just dont play them coz they cant own everyone and be uber anymore.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I was the first apu before mike, :p.
I honestly only remember me, mike, and gostly as the "main" apus when apus first were around.
Even before the damage percent increase from 368% i remember being apu. :p However cr@sh was apu before me back then.
sigh i was an apu before all you guys.... :wtf:
hard to say who's 1st without any proof from anyone.
the human memory is far from infallible
Originally posted by MayhemMike
I want them to nerf monks, then i will be the only apu on pluto again! ya!
Dead monk prehaps.. tried fighting without a PPU in tow? :p
Originally posted by Omnituens
they are.
ppl just dont play them coz they cant own everyone and be uber anymore.
No only people that have time to get the perfect setup to make them viable play them me, i personally dont have time to get the setup that works;)
Mumblyfish
08-11-03, 15:29
Originally posted by Ascention
No only people that have time to get the perfect setup to make them viable play them me, i personally dont have time to get the setup that works;)
No, believe me. I've put next to no time into my current hybrid setup. Yet it's still viable. I can kill unbuffed spies and PEs, the occasional dumb tank, and any stealthers around fall over the second I get near them. Of course, I'm not "uber". Not by any means. But I'm more viable in PvP than say, a melee spy ;)
And I won't even start on how I'm the lord of PvM...
What is a pain in the ass, is it's hard to level another type of char up now. You wacking away at a WB with a MR 1000, an a mob of APU's comes along, and zaps the fuckers in two seconds.
bleh ppl should stop saying ppus are invulnerabili
they die like other ppl just not that fast
look at op wars ppus die too
Eledhbrant
08-11-03, 16:45
Originally posted by Darken
bleh ppl should stop saying ppus are invulnerabili
they die like other ppl just not that fast
look at op wars ppus die too
He IS right you know, theres an abundance of ppu's at the moment, but I know plenty who will die from NON-monks (can you believe it).
Also I know plenty of "good" ppu's, none are invulnerable they just know what they're doing. Takes a bit more concentration to stay alive that much longer :)
Regardless of what people claim about PPUs, fact is, 75% of characters you see are monks. This increases to 90% at OP wars. You can argue all you want about each individual point, but the facts speak for themselves.
Originally posted by Scikar
Regardless of what people claim about PPUs, fact is, 75% of characters you see are monks. This increases to 90% at OP wars. You can argue all you want about each individual point, but the facts speak for themselves.
I dont have to much of a problem with that the problem I have if tanks and PE's and APUs are having it out in pepper the fact is when the PPU/APU of anything else with a PPU with a team walks in Pepper dies, fights over.
Admiting to being a Monk, is just the first step. Now call Monks anonymous. They can help. Really.
Hullo my name is Berzerker. It has been five days since I was a Monk.
greendonkeyuk
08-11-03, 18:10
remove parashock, give other classes some sort of antibuff type device. nuff said.
keep the system as it is, tone down PPUs and paraspamming and then see where that goes.
Make monks have to "aim"
Remove para
Make ressing a after battle activity only by making it so that any ppu that use a ressing spell automaticly debuff him self or that he cant use it while buffed. That way the part that gets to ress is the one who is controlling the battlefield. Would cause little problem PvM cause mobs are stupid.
If clipping plane isn`t ever gonne be extended, reduce monk range quite alot.
ghandisfury
08-11-03, 19:38
Originally posted by g0rt
drop parashock
remove invulnerability of neocron's healer class
balanced defense/offense of apu, or just make hybrids viable but not overpowered
what has to be done, but seemingly cant be
Remove parashock is great, but if you want to make me even MORE vulnerable than I am now, then I need offence. And for the last time, hybrids cannot be balanced.
EDIT: But I do want an answere to see at least if KK think (or knows) there is a problem. I know that everytime I get parashocked, damage boosted, or hit from 500 meters with fire apoc I want to un-install.
With hybrids people need to know that there will still be the PPU subclass, which would make it still possible to make a PPU, and if nothing is done about PPU's first they will still be inbalenced. I just realised this myself.
I've nothing constructive to add, but I will say I predicted this. The day of the hybrid nerf there sat a wealth of monkeys in medcare, a benchful of soon-to-be ppu's, a benchful of apu's. And the non-monkeys came in to jeer and laugh, and they were promptly shortlisted, and threatened with death by the mass of now overpowered gits, who would be responsible for the grief they now suffer, widely abbrieviated to monkocron. The definitive quote of that session, was 'we will make the people bitch even more'. And then everyone was content forever more.
steweygrrr
08-11-03, 20:00
Maybe monks are hard because they are MEANT to be? I mean who was the ruling class of Neocron for a few decades? How do you think they held on to power like that? By being hard! and monks are not invincible trust me my /30 apu has bitten dust more times than i care to remember so bear that in mind too....
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Remove parashock is great, but if you want to make me even MORE vulnerable than I am now, then I need offence. And for the last time, hybrids cannot be balanced.
EDIT: But I do want an answere to see at least if KK think (or knows) there is a problem. I know that everytime I get parashocked, damage boosted, or hit from 500 meters with fire apoc I want to un-install.
Why can hybrids not be balanced? Right now its -30%/-30% i believe...if they played with this number they should be able to find the perfect formula so hybrids take about the same (with a good setup) as PEs and do a fair amount of damage but not the same as a pure APU.
Hybrids cant be balanced....:lol: ... Are you a KK employee or something?
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 20:36
Originally posted by deac
sigh i was an apu before all you guys.... :wtf:
You were an apu since the start of retail too?
O_O
:p
Originally posted by Scikar
Regardless of what people claim about PPUs, fact is, 75% of characters you see are monks. This increases to 90% at OP wars. You can argue all you want about each individual point, but the facts speak for themselves.
True.
Whats annoying it is the same people opening the same thread topic day after day with the same stupid subject. I mean how much of the same crap can you say over and over before you realise KK know already?
Heaven forbid you mention changes to thier class though (as a part solution/comprimise).
I don't know why they haven't done anything yet, it's so simple. All you have to do is tone down shelter/deflector/heal about 30% or maybe a little more. Remove para spells and also remove anti buff spells becuase by lowering the strenghts of shelter/deflector/heal it'll be unfair to have them.
And for apus all you really gotta do is reduce there range by like half and reduce there damage by some or give them a reticule. I rather just give them a reticule becuase there damage is fine now, after all they are suppose to do a lot of damage. It's just how easy it is for them to deal that damage that i think is the problem.
I was an APU from late beta 4 to christmas. That was soooo cool, everyone was different classes because they each had their strong points and their weak points. Now they just have their "ease of use" points :(
Mingoo
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 22:15
Originally posted by Archeus
Whats annoying it is the same people opening the same thread topic day after day with the same stupid subject.
I KNOW! Their just as annoying as those people(ppus usually) who totally deny there's any problem at all and never contribute to a discussion other than to bitch about the topic being brought up all the time.
:)
Originally posted by Archeus
I mean how much of the same crap can you say over and over before you realise KK know already?
That's the point of this thread. Maybe all those threads will die down when KK makes a statement about it.
Originally posted by Archeus
Heaven forbid you mention changes to thier class though (as a part solution/comprimise).
I KNOW! Like those ppus who don't want anything to happen to their class.
For example, I think apu max random energy damage needs to be reduced, and i think range needs a severe cut. See, if I can do it i'm sure they can too.
I'm glad we agree Archeus. :)
Sarcasm aside, i'm sure you wouldn't like antibuffs given to every class with a frequency of 105 right? Because it woudl make your class useless right? Then don't expect people to like suggestions that makes their class useless. Genius. :rolleyes: Try using your head a little. Your suggestion wouldn't have solved monkacron in the least. It only would have completely fucked over solo apus, which they don't deserve. You didn't even try to look at the problem and fix it, that shows how completely clueless you are.
Originally posted by petek480
I don't know why they haven't done anything yet, it's so simple. All you have to do is tone down shelter/deflector/heal about 30% or maybe a little more. Remove para spells and also remove anti buff spells becuase by lowering the strenghts of shelter/deflector/heal it'll be unfair to have them.
And for apus all you really gotta do is reduce there range by like half and reduce there damage by some or give them a reticule. I rather just give them a reticule becuase there damage is fine now, after all they are suppose to do a lot of damage. It's just how easy it is for them to deal that damage that i think is the problem.
I agree! Also, I do think instead of a range/damage cut, that apus should get reticle.
Either a range severe cut/damage tone down, or a reticle.
Richard Adregen
08-11-03, 22:16
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Originally posted by deac
sigh i was an apu before all you guys.... :wtf:
You were an apu since the start of retail too?
I dunno about deac, but I've been APU since about 2 weeks after start of beta 4... Even though I'm not overly active and never have been, and am not a force to reckon with, I'm an older APU than you are :p
RA.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I agree! Also, I do think instead of a range/damage cut, that apus should get reticle.
Either a range severe cut/damage tone down, or a reticle.
I don't really care which one, just something so apus aren't able to deal a huge amount of damage so easily. Look at every other class, they gotta actually hold there reticle over there target and wait for it to close which requires lots of skills. But then you got an apu that deals out the most damage and all they gotta do is click an enemy.
Shadow Dancer
08-11-03, 22:27
Maybe holy lightning should do double damage?
EDIT: It's a joke pete, lol. NVM.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Maybe holy lightning should do double damage?
?
Originally posted by petek480
I don't know why they haven't done anything yet, it's so simple. All you have to do is tone down shelter/deflector/heal about 30% or maybe a little more. Remove para spells and also remove anti buff spells becuase by lowering the strenghts of shelter/deflector/heal it'll be unfair to have them.
And for apus all you really gotta do is reduce there range by like half and reduce there damage by some or give them a reticule. I rather just give them a reticule becuase there damage is fine now, after all they are suppose to do a lot of damage. It's just how easy it is for them to deal that damage that i think is the problem.
I agree with that. I'm not so sure about an apu reticle, I think a range cut would be more suitable. Did you ever notice that the range on apu spells actually goes up further? My HL shows about 200m range and says that's about 300m less than the cap. :eek:
Originally posted by steweygrrr
Maybe monks are hard because they are MEANT to be? I mean who was the ruling class of Neocron for a few decades? How do you think they held on to power like that? By being hard! and monks are not invincible trust me my /30 apu has bitten dust more times than i care to remember so bear that in mind too....
Do you actually know what the hell you are talking about? Possibly if monks were only allowed in Crahn sect and were actaully hated and feared then yeah, they should be more powerful. But as it stands they are just as accessable as any other class and just as easy to level up or get supplys for. Why should any one class be more powerful than all the others without having some sort of downfall.
Anyway.... back on topic.
KK please make some sort of statement just something to know that you have actually realised that there is a bloody problem.
Heavyporker
09-11-03, 03:40
mmmh... making Monks Crahn Only.. thats one way.
But then, wouldn't GenTanks then be Crahn Only, too, considering that the PSI Monks made them?
And then wouldn't Spies be Fallen Angels Only, considering they're the only ones other than PSIs smart enough to come up with high tech... and the PSIs chased them out by their oppression?
Shadow Dancer
09-11-03, 11:22
Originally posted by Scikar
I agree with that. I'm not so sure about an apu reticle, I think a range cut would be more suitable. Did you ever notice that the range on apu spells actually goes up further? My HL shows about 200m range and says that's about 300m less than the cap. :eek:
264m is the cap on HL.
Btw, please don't make PSIs crahn only. First of all that's not gonna reduce the problem only make all the monks crahn. Secondly, Crahn Sect has such a silly ideology. I don't want to be forced to 'follow' it.
*puke*
:p
Heavyporker
09-11-03, 18:40
There's no monk-a-cron problem. I see plenty of other class types in Neocron City and the wastelands. Wasn't the PvPers complaining about Tank-o-cron, then PE-o-cron just a little while ago?
I was PSI Monk during all that time. If one takes a good long step back and a good look at the situation, its a seasonal phenomenon. I say it'll be Spy-o-cron in two months, give or take. Nothing to be working up about.
It's all the PvPers and Pkers weeping about not being so uber day to day. Silly little whiners.
Shadow Dancer
09-11-03, 21:55
Originally posted by Heavyporker
There's no monk-a-cron problem. I see plenty of other class types in Neocron City and the wastelands. Wasn't the PvPers complaining about Tank-o-cron, then PE-o-cron just a little while ago?
I was PSI Monk during all that time. If one takes a good long step back and a good look at the situation, its a seasonal phenomenon. I say it'll be Spy-o-cron in two months, give or take. Nothing to be working up about.
No offense porker, but you barely PvP.
I don't remember a PE-o-cron. Tank-o-cron was more a result of pes and spies being underpowered, rather than tanks being overpowered. Monkacron is a result of monks being WAYYYY too important in PvP. To the point where you see like 85% monks at op wars. It's monks, with a few tanks, and the occasional pe/spy.
And the day spy-o-cron comes is the day I'll get laid. :p
Originally posted by Richard Adregen
You were an apu since the start of retail too?
I dunno about deac, but I've been APU since about 2 weeks after start of beta 4... Even though I'm not overly active and never have been, and am not a force to reckon with, I'm an older APU than you are :p
RA. [/QUOTE]
how u achieve this, for a long time in beta 4 apu adn ppu didnt exist it was almost all coverd under on title witha few extra spells such as reserection being in exotic psi use
did this really have to become a discussion?...lol...ive seen threads asking for an official word from KK...and it never happen...very rarely do they say somethin...and it's usually MJS...
i really wanna know what they plan on doing....or if they even have a plan at all...comeon (><)
Dribble Joy
09-11-03, 22:45
If they do do something, (which they should) they need to go one step at a time.
In my totally and utterly worthless opinion, they should get rid of Parashock (in all it's forms) and then see how that affects things. You never know, it might not be as bad as we think with the rest of the at the moment balance issues left in, then again it might still be horrible.
Holy heal is teh worst thing after paraspam as I see it.
Tankocron only existed because at the time few people saw how to setup a monk properly. Tanks were much more simple, all you had to do was shoot stuff with the most powerful gun you could use, wear the highest TL armor you could use, and you got good damage and good defence. Nobody knew how to spec resists properly, so tanks had an armor advantage, and few monks knew how to spec a good hybrid setup (though there were a few around from beta).
As soon as hybrid setups began to circulate, we went into monkacron, or more specifically, hybridcron. The difference then was that hybrids were not as invulnerable as PPUs are now, and there was no antibuff. Thus no specific class was needed (as APUs are now) which meant tanks, PEs and spies were still common. Hybrids were only truly effective at high levels, and even then they couldn't runcast. They didn't really need skill, but they did take more effort than other classes. That's why there were still other classes around.
As soon as PPUs became 100% necessary for OP wars, and even moreso when APUs were given the only realistic means to take them down, we realised that what we called monkacron was nothing compared to the hell of what we see now.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
In my totally and utterly worthless opinion, they should get rid of Parashock (in all it's forms) and then see how that affects things. You never know, it might not be as bad as we think with the rest of the at the moment balance issues left in, then again it might still be horrible.
Actually, I am trying to cut back with the sledgehammer solutions. Just removing a spell would mean giving up on balancing it. Next testserver patch will include a few... well.. small-time nerfs, we will see how they perform and react accordingly. There HAS to be a way to keep the Parashock spell in without it killing all forms of PvP...
Shadow Dancer
10-11-03, 02:54
Originally posted by Callash
There HAS to be a way to keep the Parashock spell in without it killing all forms of PvP...
Yea, make it PvM. :p
Btw, can you give us any details on these small time "nerfs"?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Btw, can you give us any details on these small time "nerfs"?
Well yeah, reductions of Range and Damage (only Damage, not effect), boosting Cast-time and Mana use. According to how things go on testserver then, we will make further adjustments...
Shadow Dancer
10-11-03, 02:58
Originally posted by Callash
Well yeah, reductions of Range and Damage (only Damage, not effect), boosting Cast-time and Mana use. According to how things go on testserver then, we will make further adjustments...
Of paralyze?
This would be the first patch that makes me want to go on the test serve to test, but i'm so lazy. :p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Of paralyze?
No, of Distract Mind o_O
Of course of Paralyze :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
And the day spy-o-cron comes is the day I'll get laid. :p
Shit KK make NC spy-o-cron think about that untouched boy :(
j/k
:D :D :lol: :lol:
Still spies need a better combat boost =/ Nerf the FL to some lovley points up north or just make droners a real sneaky killer......
Shadow Dancer
10-11-03, 03:04
Originally posted by Callash
No, of Distract Mind o_O
Of course of Paralyze :rolleyes:
rofl :p
Ok well thanks for the statement. Any chance you can respond on the whole monk issue?
Yes I know, i'm juicing you up. Sorry. :p
Originally posted by t0tt3
Shit KK make NC spy-o-cron think about that untouched boy :(
j/k
:D :D :lol: :lol:
Yes damnit, boost spies so I can get some. :lol:
Originally posted by Callash
No, of Distract Mind o_O
Of course of Paralyze :rolleyes:
Well the Distract Mind need some nerfs to its utter shite never seen it at all how does it work o_O
I think the best thing to do balance-wise would be to take 3 people of each class, who are considered masters of their class, and have them fight in various 3v3 fights using a mix of classes, and see which mixes are effective and which are not. Then we can identify problems in the system. Also this can be continued with larger engagements. The problem at the moment is that the only feedback is coming from uncontrolled fights, and the evidence is always one-sided. With a real testing team, we can stage lots of fights and identify where the true problems lie, and find out what works to fix them, rather than the current method which is slow and doesn't work very well.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Ok well thanks for the statement. Any chance you can respond on the whole monk issue?
Well, all I can say is we still have a long way to go before all classes are remotely equal in terms of viability and especially fun.
Shadow Dancer
10-11-03, 03:11
Originally posted by Callash
Well, all I can say is we still have a long way to go before all classes are remotely equal in terms of viability and especially fun.
What a very "safe" answer. :p
Thanks for all the replies.
Originally posted by Scikar
I think the best thing to do balance-wise would be to take 3 people of each class, who are considered masters of their class, and have them fight in various 3v3 fights using a mix of classes, and see which mixes are effective and which are not. Then we can identify problems in the system. Also this can be continued with larger engagements. The problem at the moment is that the only feedback is coming from uncontrolled fights, and the evidence is always one-sided. With a real testing team, we can stage lots of fights and identify where the true problems lie, and find out what works to fix them, rather than the current method which is slow and doesn't work very well.
Eh? Hrmm. You really think that could work? Do you really trust those people to do a good and realistic job?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Test Patch #217 - All anti-drugs now kick in after 8/4/2 seconds.
Thanks KK for making apu poison 100% completely useless now.
Oh yeah, about that... Next Testserver Patch will also reduce the amout of stacks an Antipoison-Drug drains. The one taking 8 secs will reduce 3 stacks, the one taking 4 secs will reduce 2 stacks, the one taking 2 secs will reduce 1 stack. See above, we will see how this works. :p
Shadow Dancer
10-11-03, 03:16
OOOoooooo, awesome. Time to change my siggy.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Eh? Hrmm. You really think that could work? Do you really trust those people to do a good and realistic job?
They would be picked specifically because they can do a good job. People like QD, yourself, Divide, Rizzy, they're the first that spring to mind, basically people who are honest enough to realise what's going wrong with the PvP, and able to analyze the problems, rather than ignore and deny them. If it's a controlled fight, let's say 1 PPU + 2 PEs vs 3 PEs, and the first team wins outright without a loss, then it's clear that the PPU is the unbalancing factor. With the current system where you have to 'whine' in order to discuss this at all, you would get a lot of PPUs denying there's a problem here.
Originally posted by Scikar
They would be picked specifically because they can do a good job. People like QD, yourself, Divide, Rizzy, they're the first that spring to mind, basically people who are honest enough to realise what's going wrong with the PvP, and able to analyze the problems, rather than ignore and deny them. If it's a controlled fight, let's say 1 PPU + 2 PEs vs 3 PEs, and the first team wins outright without a loss, then it's clear that the PPU is the unbalancing factor. With the current system where you have to 'whine' in order to discuss this at all, you would get a lot of PPUs denying there's a problem here.
Scikar not to flame you but you said 3 from each class who was uber... yea or something ;)
2 PE:s + 3 Pe:s aint that 5? But then again maybe this post has a new method to test the balance thing :D
Callash.... I <3 when you post :D You should do it more often, hehe!
Glad to hear there ARE planned changes. That's all we wanted. I'm sure you knew that tho. Screw the powers that be tho, I love seeing the paying customers getting 'official' answers to some of our really big questions :)
damage and range...boosting cast time and mana?, what's that mean?...they'll be able to cast it faster?...no effect nerf...then wow it's all over...problem is gunna be solved...ffs ;\ it still wont stop the fact of getting stuck to the floor
Pretty soon everything in this game is going to be so nerfed that 6 year olds can play it. lol.
Originally posted by Mayze
Pretty soon everything in this game is going to be so nerfed that 6 year olds can play it. lol.
yep they made monks totally noobish already..
.cy
/e ... btw i hope you all know with that patch you make ppus TOTALLY unkillable... :rolleyes:
Richard Adregen
10-11-03, 22:45
Originally posted by gostly
damage and range...boosting cast time and mana?, what's that mean?...they'll be able to cast it faster?...no effect nerf...then wow it's all over...problem is gunna be solved...ffs ;\ it still wont stop the fact of getting stuck to the floor
Reducing damage means they won't be able to kill with it... Pro, in my opinion.
Reducing range: they need to get closer before they can paraspam you. Pro.
Boosting cast time: Means that'll cast it SLOWER. more cast time= less RoF. VERY pro.
boosting mana: takes more mana to cast. VERY pro.
Changing anti-potions so that they work faster: VERY pro. (except for poison ;))
Callash OWNS YOU ALL!
RA.
Shadow Dancer
11-11-03, 00:34
Originally posted by Mayze
Pretty soon everything in this game is going to be so nerfed that 6 year olds can play it. lol.
Ahh, in that case be patient and you'll be able to play soon.
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
yep they made monks totally noobish already..
Yes because the hybrids of old required skills and were balanced right?
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
/e ... btw i hope you all know with that patch you make ppus TOTALLY unkillable... :rolleyes:
Yea, the good ppus will be almost imossible to kill without paralyze. Which will mean more people will complain, which will mean the ppu's imbalance will be looked at again more closely, which is good.
Originally posted by evs
hard to say who's 1st without any proof from anyone.
the human memory is far from infallible
Human memory is also highly subjective.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Yea, the good ppus will be almost imossible to kill without paralyze. Which will mean more people will complain, which will mean the ppu's imbalance will be looked at again more closely, which is good.
I wont even try to bother killing a lone ppu... now if hes doing his job and trying to rez or heal his mates you might be able to sneak in a holydebuff and kill.
but yes... not beeing able to paraspam a ppu will make it a nightmare to take him dow
1 increase rof to 10-20
2 decrease range a little bit
3 increase mana cost to 300
4 remove all anti spells and drugs... if your stupid enuff to be hit by a para of that sort you need to suffer.
or make the anti para spell cost 300 to cast...
this is one of the most viable solutions to far please look at it.
Would it be posible to make med kits for the drugs. So for instance a blue medkit for paraspam x three, like a regular medkit. An say green one fer poison ect, ect, yada, yada.
Seriously Shadow Dancer, is it really necessary to throw insults around like that? I was merely stating my opinion.
Originally posted by Mayze
Seriously Shadow Dancer, is it really necessary to throw insults around like that? I was merely stating my opinion.
The only insult I see is you calling everyone 6 year olds, if anything at all? :confused:
Shadow Dancer
11-11-03, 14:42
Deac, you wanna raise the mana cost of paralyze to 300?
:eek:
Clownst0pper
11-11-03, 14:47
4 remove all anti spells and drugs... if your stupid enuff to be hit by a para of that sort you need to suffer.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - Threatening] That is the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard.
Para Shock = Point and Click, No amount of Jumping, strafing, Crouching and stealthing can make u avoid being parashocked in an OP war 100%
[edited for violation of the forum rules - Flaming] admit even the best of use are parashocked, have been, will be, and have died from it.
Jesus, If you dont then are no doubt hacking beyond all belief.
Get real.:mad:
mana 300 and takes shortest 5 sec.... that would be fine...
Originally posted by deac
I wont even try to bother killing a lone ppu... now if hes doing his job and trying to rez or heal his mates you might be able to sneak in a holydebuff and kill.
but yes... not beeing able to paraspam a ppu will make it a nightmare to take him dow
1 increase rof to 10-20
2 decrease range a little bit
3 increase mana cost to 300
4 remove all anti spells and drugs... if your stupid enuff to be hit by a para of that sort you need to suffer.
or make the anti para spell cost 300 to cast...
this is one of the most viable solutions to far please look at it.
Even if the parashock had a 40sec cast time people would still be
hit by it, once you have been targetted the only thing you can do
to avoid being hit is zone, stealthing or hiding or whatever does
absolutely jack all. If you throw in that all paraspells should be
changed to lances then Im all for it however. That should be done
to all psi-spells however.
PS just got back from a few days ban for calling shadow a
<beep>, anyway it was worth it :D being banned by niddy is like
cancer... you never think it will happen to you... DS
Making the RoF higher would help loads. Think about it, it would take like 20 secs to cast but then only 2 secs (drugs) to take off and your safe atleast for another 20 secs unless theres another PPU. And if its got a high mana cost would avoid it being spammed so the PPUs would really think who they hit it with, much like APUs just dont go around anti buffing everyone...
Lol yes ..please remove parashock because as a PPU and before Holy catharsis sanctum it was the only thing that could make me dîe :p
You will give the power of HCS to any PPU out there, despite the level they have.
A PPU that can't be parashocked is a running rabit without fear :p
Plz people remove ask to remove parashock rofl :D
Do it ...lol lol
greendonkeyuk
11-11-03, 16:57
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
And the day spy-o-cron comes is the day I'll get laid. :p
The thought of spyocron is enough to reduce me to a gibbering wreck of excitement. Finally the true masters of neocron shall take their rightful places.
The thought of shadow gettin laid is.......... 8|.
However, ill compromise..... :p
Back on topic, 300 mana is a bit excessive, 150 mana would be reasonable, include a higher RoF than current and youd prolly be able to use it about twice a minute, 3 times at a push..... its not quite the paraspam(tm) we get now is it. The bigger problem however is the effect of the ppu (particularly parashock) on the smaller fights. If the above changes were implemented (not necessarily mine but some of the more credible suggestions further up) then i can see op wars and big fights being more even. However smaller fights would still be affected more due to the power of the individual ppu. However im glad that something is being addressed about the issue and that some quality ideas are coming out of the discussion. Hopefully soon spyocron will reign supreme.
Hey we can all dream.
ghandisfury
11-11-03, 17:01
Originally posted by Rade
Even if the parashock had a 40sec cast time people would still be
hit by it, once you have been targetted the only thing you can do
to avoid being hit is zone, stealthing or hiding or whatever does
absolutely jack all. If you throw in that all paraspells should be
changed to lances then Im all for it however. That should be done
to all psi-spells however.
PS just got back from a few days ban for calling shadow a
<beep>, anyway it was worth it :D being banned by niddy is like
cancer... you never think it will happen to you... DS
Not true, it would be a BIG step in the right direction. If the parashock spell was moved to 150 or 200 mana at an ROF of 30/min then you would be able to avoid being "paraspamed". Then the drug fix would help even more.
SPIES FOREVER !!!!!111ONEONEONEONE
but seriously, cmon at least get rid of para my antishock drugs cost to much. =(
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
[edited for violation of the forum rules - Threatening] That is the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard.
Para Shock = Point and Click, No amount of Jumping, strafing, Crouching and stealthing can make u avoid being parashocked in an OP war 100%
[edited for violation of the forum rules - Flaming] admit even the best of use are parashocked, have been, will be, and have died from it.
Jesus, If you dont then are no doubt hacking beyond all belief.
Get real.:mad:
you really didnt read my post did you?
if we change parashocks rof to the same as rez and up the mana cost to 300 then,
1 you wont be spammed
2 you can run out of reach for the spell just like ppus can do with anti shelter :\
3 it might even make ppus use the anti freeze spell on team mates... (anti freeze should be removed from cath sanctum)
Never thought id say it but monks need re-worked as a whole. A while back i stood up for ppu/apu but now everyone has them and its boring. Everyone playing much the same cookie cutter setup for the same class, it takes alot of fun out of an rpg, its not diverse anymore. Op wars etc were fun when all classes participated but atm that cant happen as people will always bring their monk or feel insignificant with another class.
I got sick of being ppu the way it is atm as it doesnt take too much skill, there is only one class in the game that has a chance of killing you and even then its not too hard to rebuff/get away.
Imo for a ppu nerf shields by 50% and remove the nerf of 50% on others. Also nerf the heal as atm even with nerfed shields a ppu can cap their defense its the insta-heal that saves them. This would mean a ppu would still be damn hard to take down if they had enough skill to evade hits, but standing still out healing 3 or 4 chars at least like it is atm wouldnt happen. PPUs should see this as an added challenge and it may also cause some to play their alts and bring the variety that was once in the game back.
Apus should have random dmg removed and then have their dmg tweaked, they have weak defense so they die fast, they should be able to kill as fast as they die to make a fight fair.
Hybrids should be brought back, atm they aren't too bad but they need a boost in their offense, their defense seems ok atm as with good resists you can still stand up to punishment but the dmg you do to a well setup char is far too weak, dmg boosted low hits of 2-5 dmg o_O and highs at about 40(not too bad), however due to the low spell dmg you very rarely hit a high dmg possibly the removal of random dmg could help fix this...
Imo these solutions would be a good fix to the problem atm, it would add more variety and skill to monks and those who only play a monk due to feeling out of place at op wars etc, could go back to playing their normal chars, hopefully bringing balance back to the game.
NB: for hybrids to be brought back but still limited i think it would be easier to change about what each skill does, eg.
PSU= purely mana (imo all monks should be able to have a large mana pool when capped, and whats the point of giving monks 100int which is damn hard to reach and force them to put all their points under one skill)
APU/PPU= Purely dmg and rof therefore hybrids get a weak dmg and rof and pures get good benefits.
MST= RNG/HANDLING and make handling the skill which effects runcast, this could allow hybrids to runcast but to do so their dmg would be lower. (remove the "requirement on spells" but have a value which u need to runcast it ie holy lightning 100)
PPW= remove.
This could add variety to all monk setups and hopefully balance the classes and so encourage players to play their alts.
Bored at uni atm and typing this quickly so sorry if it doesnt all make sense.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
OOOoooooo, awesome. Time to change my siggy.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. :)
Originally posted by Callash
Actually, I am trying to cut back with the sledgehammer solutions. Just removing a spell would mean giving up on balancing it. Next testserver patch will include a few... well.. small-time nerfs, we will see how they perform and react accordingly. There HAS to be a way to keep the Parashock spell in without it killing all forms of PvP...
IMO it's not the damage, range etc or even the RoF that's the problem with parashock, it's the shock effect itself. It's nearly triple that of the highest freezer gun stun effect. I'd say halve it. That way it severely reduces the final effects of paraspamming, while leaving the PPUs some rudimentary offense to level with.
What some people seem to fail to realise is that without
parashock the PPUs will be immensly harder to take down, and
they will still be able to confer godlike staying power and their
massive heals onto others still making them necesary in OP wars.
Not to talk about rezz. Its not just the paraspam thats the
problem, actually its a very small part of the problem.
That's not a problem Rade. We'll just go one step at a time. First test patch, nerf para. Second test patch, tweak PPUs. Continue tweaking PPUs until balance, and then patch retail.
ghandisfury
11-11-03, 18:41
Originally posted by Rade
What some people seem to fail to realise is that without
parashock the PPUs will be immensly harder to take down, and
they will still be able to confer godlike staying power and their
massive heals onto others still making them necesary in OP wars.
Well, so will PEs spies and tanks. Parashock isn't the problem with PPUs persay, but it is definately a game killer. If spies were left with the last freezers, I would be calling for the removal of that as well.
Originally posted by Rade
Not to talk about rezz. Its not just the paraspam thats the
problem, actually its a very small part of the problem.
You make a good point. Rezz is an extreamly big problem with OP wars (or any wars for that matter), but it is easily fixed with a tool given to PEs or spies to remove dead people from battle. While we are on the fact that PPUs overwhelm battle, I think that damage boost is also a very big problem. With an easy change of making it stack as it does on mobs you have the PPU class as close to balanced as you can get. (imo)
Clownst0pper
11-11-03, 21:45
if your stupid enuff to be hit by a para of that sort you need to suffer.
How else is that suposed to be interpreted?
And yes Rade, I completely agree with u, tiz but the tip of the iceberg!
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Yes because the hybrids of old required skills and were balanced right?
Yea, the good ppus will be almost imossible to kill without paralyze. Which will mean more people will complain, which will mean the ppu's imbalance will be looked at again more closely, which is good.
yes they needed alot of skill and most of them were balanced . now you have around 100 UBER ppus and 100 uber apus on a server.. back then you had 10 real uber hybrids...
its simply piss easy for every noob to setup a pure monk..
and no shad you're not worth it to start this conversation again..
it will be looked at ppus again sure... so expect the next fix in 3 more months then ?
i see it coming.. after that patch .. the whining will start again
:rolleyes:
.cy
Clownst0pper
11-11-03, 23:15
i see it coming.. after that patch .. the whining will start again
Only on Private Eyes or Spys :lol:
Shadow Dancer
11-11-03, 23:36
Originally posted by Rade
PS just got back from a few days ban for calling shadow a
<beep>, anyway it was worth it :D being banned by niddy is like
cancer... you never think it will happen to you... DS
I was surprised you got banned. I thought it was obvious you were joking around with me, since i was joking about the PPU light spell.
You were joking right? :p
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
yes they needed alot of skill and most of them were balanced . now you have around 100 UBER ppus and 100 uber apus on a server..
Well you said I was skillless before, and I beat some of the best tanks on the server(even 2 of them at the same time) when I was hybrid(after fixing my con setup). How is that "lots of skills"? There was no skill in the old hybrid setup. Just getting used to spell switching. There were several fights I had with people(and my aim sux) where I missed a friggin LOT and they hit me like hell, but I still won eventually. How is that skillz?
Funny thing is you never even admitted they were overpowered, back when YOU were a hybrid. You and "your clan" even stated time and time again hybrids were fine and that NC is a "team" game so that a few people working to take down a hybrid is fine. lmao. And now you say ppus and apus are "vastly" overpowered. LMAO. So apu alone is more overpowered then the hybrid back then? LMAO
Face it, you're extremely biased and blind you don't even want to admit it. You don't care about balance, just getting your hybrid back. :(
And yes people will still complain about ppus after(and IF) parashock is fixed. That's because while parashock is a huge problem, it's still only PART of the ppu(and monkacron in general) probelm.
the nerfs mentioned by callash are un-needed nerfs....no one ever complaind about para's dmg...but that's being nerfed...and range?...you guys are gunna be complaining again...it's not like they're gunna nerf the range down to melee range...and ffs...the mana cost wont be increased to 300...and it's rof wont be 20secs in between...you guys are way ahead of yourselves...
the only way to fix this shit is to nerf the effect of it...plain and simple...but leave it to KK to take the long route...nerf 4 things about it when 1 thing would solve it...
monk's need ultra balancing...and if this is supposed to show the type of balancing we have to look forward to...then it's gunna take years...::sigh:: :rolleyes:
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