View Full Version : Tank PA and the damage cap on heavy weapons...
I think the tank PA needs to be improved.
I doubt there is a single rifle spy who doesn't use the spy PA...it is excellent. The endurance penalty is noticeable but since most spies are droners or snipers, it doesn’t really bother them that much. The PE armor also has virtually no negative penalty. Just take it off to buff yourself or use PPU buffs at an OP fight. How many monks do you see not using the monk PA?
However, you are likely to see more tanks NOT in their PA than actually using it. Speed is a key factor to PvP and I just can't understand why the tank PA has such a big speed penalty IN ADDITION to the huge hit tanks already take as soon as they draw their weapons. It is so easy for tanks to cap the damage on their weapons that the additional Heavy Combat skill points are nearly useless.
All of these speed penalties are because of the massive damage our cannons do? Tanks don't have cute little psi modules, wee bitty pistols, or slender rifles...NO, we have CANNONS. Well let them do cannon-like damage then!
RAISE THE DAMAGE CAP ON HEAVY WEAPONS TO 200% (or 220% or 240% whatever). It's not just the speed penalty we get from drawing a weapon and from the armor, but tanks also have the worst aiming of any weapon. Then by God, when they do manage to hit something these cannons should do some massive damage! Tanks might actually wear PA then because they would need the extra skill levels to cap the damage (just like APUs need it).
Ray
heavy weapons used to be HEAVY WEAPONS way back when they didn't suck. There was a time when the game was almost perfectly balanced, then KK decided to have sex while high on far to many drugs to list here.
See, KK had sex with a nasty whore. Not just any nasty whore, but a mutated nasty whore with a 10th nipple, missing anus, and three unidentified "finger like" objects coming from her nose...
Everything went downhill after that... and now we get slow ass moving tanks with pea-shooters...
not that tanks are weak ass... but... eh... class balance has never been the same...
if you up the tanks, everyone will bitch... so, i dont see that ever happening... it would be like KK said "lets bring back hybrids without fucking them in the ass 3 different ways..." the fact that they want to bring back hybrids (which are evil, i guess) is enough to send the community into a frenzied orgy of body fluids that should not be involved with the word "orgy"...
besides, KK cant make an "adjustment" to save their souls... it would either do NOTHING or they would make the guns blow a hole the size of a standard sized midget through a tank... (the vehicle... not the person...)
ericdraven
07-11-03, 00:03
redjacket, i really hope you will publish a book once with all your posts... :D
(i would be the first one who buys it :p)
I think that tanks just need better armour and bonus's to resists and body health whilst working in a team with other tanks, so that they fufil their job and work very well as a unit in an OP war or raid.
They don't need better attack, they have just less than APU and more than PEs (unless you are using a RoLH, which is a bit OTT tbh). Speed is a factor in PvP yeah, but you are using "heavy" weapons, thus they should slow you down. You should be able to get that back in extra defence.
If the damage cap on heavy weapons was raised from 178 to say 220%, it would amount to a 24% increase.
If I recall correctly, a CS burst (when all shots hit...goodluck) to a buffed PPU was doing about 65 points of damage. This would increase to about 81 or 16 more. I don't think this is a unbalancing change.
If tank armor and our weapons are going to slow us down so much, and our aim is the worst in the game, then they should do a bit more damage when they do hit. That's just my opinion.
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 03:00
[Edited - Flaming]
What I find most amusing is that CS damage has been deemed over powered by Lupus' tests (5% thusly).
Tanks are mostly balanced with APUs and with PEs.
Jesus....
[Edited - Flaming]
TSG Aiming is BETTER Than the Liberator.
Cursed Soul Aiming has the Residual lock which means once lock is attained it is most definately not lost unless you are not particularly skilled.
....Gimme a damned break.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - Flaming]
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 03:10
1 line out of 9 was directed at you.
The rest were directed at the ideas.
That was a beautifully hypocritcal post btw since it was entirely about me instead of about me and the points I made o_O
Shadow Dancer
07-11-03, 03:23
As long as they don't reach APU damage.........
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 03:24
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
As long as they don't reach APU damage.........
with this change, they would, probably out damage APUs easily over a very, very brief period of time.
Like I said, whiny, not caring about balance, just short sighted self-boosting.
No, he shouldnt shut up. Because the small handfull of people that know a lot about the game, he and i included, are tired of watching the unknowlegeable majority whine about classes thet arent underpowered or overpowered, getting the wrong things nerfed. Tanks are FINE. Can my pe/spy harvest mc5? NO. Can they do aoe? NO. Do that have over 550 hp? no. Can they run mach 5 and drive? NO. But my tank can. And CS puts out a whole lot more damage then anything my pe and spy have. Tanks have been slow now for 1 year i think it is.... or was it during beta? i cant remeber its been so long... anyway, adapt. My tank is still great vs any pe, (has very hard time vs ray using pes... thoes ray pistol/rifles need to be tweeked... not a whole class) or spy, or apu.
Tank PA adds a lot of energy, pierce/force, and HC. It has a lot of uses. I use it in mc5 to cap maldiction. I used it before I had a hercules for pvp. I have great stuff, but not everyone has a 120% freq CS, marine, and herc. IF you have a CS with just 115% freq and aiming, and just a marine no herc, or no marine even, PAS bonuses are a god sent.
Last statment, im sick of the people saying tanks need a boost... they dont. THey still are good and have a lot of nice advanatges. I have a capped tank and I use him a lot.
A question... what would YOU have the pa take away? before when it took away dex it was a joke. there has to be an annoying negative, so what should it be?
Shadow Dancer
07-11-03, 03:27
How about raising the damage and rof cap on all weapons, and only allowing people with kami chip to get past the caps. :p
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 03:28
Works for me SD.
Thanks for the backup Vett, nice to see people who know what they're doing still play :rolleyes:
DarkPhoenix
07-11-03, 03:36
LOL, I love to see people argue with QD...they never learn...QD is always right :D
Anyway, QD and Vet is right (:p )
tanks are fine the way they are, tanks were meant to be fighting machines...they are. They werent meant to be a class that can run as fast as a hovertek with a CS out doing massive amount of damage. Tank's have aoe, something PE's and Spies dont have to any decent extent.
And aiming, these are cannons, big heavy cumbersome cannons, anyone would have trouble aiming, let alone keeping aim. And with the CS its pretty easy to keep a lock, even for the less skilled... :rolleyes:
Erm...ya...and everything else was said...;)
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 03:43
On the subject of Tank AoE as I've been saying for a while now...THAT needs to be boosted :p
Vet...you missed the point entirely.
I think my opinion is valid while you and QD feel differently. Fine.
I could post a hundred screen shots of the massive number of monks at any OP fight. We could argue intelligently all night long whether you think tanks are "fine" or underpowered. But once again, that is not the point!
I have read tons of QD posts and suggestions that were utterly ridiculous. I have read tons of posts by other people that were equally ridiculous. But I read them, hit my back button and move on.
The point is that QD seems compelled to include personal remarks about the poster with his criticism on the content of the post. I don’t have a gripe nor have I ever with anyone else in these forums, but Mr. QD seems to gravitate to the few posts I make with repeated personal attacks.
Ray
Personally, I think tanks need a small boost, such as accurate AoE, rockets that fly in a straight line, etc. Mainly tweaking of the weapons so that they aren't quite so unwieldy. (E.g. - Ever try moving about 1cm while kneeling with a Mal out? Sends your aim to all hell.)
The -ATL hit on tank PA isn't really all that bad, as tanks have enough CON to absorb the hit and STILL come out on top. However, the -CON hit is just stupid. I mean, how would someone take LESS of a beating when inside a giant tincan vs. not? o_O Let the -ATL continue (or maybe take less away from ATL, but also add some -AGL in there), switch it to a -DEX instead of a -CON, and do what someone suggested in an earlier thread (sorry, don't remember the thread or the poster) make it such that when you have tank PA on, the speed hit while having your weapon out is reduced by a certain amount per level of PA.
--Stryfe
Tanks don't need a really big boost. If you think tanks need a defense boost, learn to dodge, if you think they need a damage boost, learn to aim. Getting a good lock really isn't all that hard, unless your trying to use your CS at long range, in which case good luck. Learning to dodge takes practice. If you rely fully on your con setup anyone can beat you. Con is your LAST line of defense as a tank (or anything else for that matter). The only things that need boosting are the AoE guns. A rare gatling would be nice, but not completely necessary. Please, stop whining about tanks being completely unviable. My tank is just as good as any PE or APU. It's only when you add a PPU into the equation that things get messed up, but that is for a different thread.
i don't use powerarmor on my tank, i need to be able to move
and equip weapon when i get close as to not miss
and quantum delta is a big n00b
Originally posted by Marzola
Learning to dodge takes practice.
hahahaha it needs a miracle on a heavy weapons tanks
hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha
-=Blasehase=-
07-11-03, 05:02
only the defence of a tank should be raised
i dont think that ist ok that a PE has a better defence than a tank [only with selfbuffs]
a PE can reach a remaining PvP dmg UNDER 7%
the maximum what a tank can reach is 8%... this should be lowered to 6%
so my opinion:
dont nerf the PEs... BOOST TEH TANKEHS
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 05:13
Originally posted by -=Blasehase=-
only the defence of a tank should be raised
i dont think that ist ok that a PE has a better defence than a tank [only with selfbuffs]
a PE can reach a remaining PvP dmg UNDER 7%
the maximum what a tank can reach is 8%... this should be lowered to 6%
so my opinion:
dont nerf the PEs... BOOST TEH TANKEHS
I know you know the formula's for resists, but, smoker I ask you...
PEs can get it down to 6.5%s all round except poison if they're *VERY* Good.
And have 400 HP buffed and 75 ATL / AGL...
Tanks (My Tank) hit 8% all round, has more POR, has 75 ATL, 500 HP _UNBUFFED_ and 112 AGL...
And does the damage that CS Does...
The basic difference between Tanks and PEs are that;
Tanks do their killing with power.
PEs do their killing with manuverability and defence.
Meh...
It's almost balanced, marz nailed two of the points, I think maybe one of the only ways to fix this problem without doing too much harm to anyone would be to increase HP Cap on Tanks only and let them have more HP...
Dribble Joy
07-11-03, 05:16
6.5%? what total armour is that roughly? (I know buffs come into it duhh) 140? 150? I got 130 min all round and gimped mana for more PPU.
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 05:25
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
6.5%? what total armour is that roughly? (I know buffs come into it duhh) 140? 150? I got 130 min all round and gimped mana for more PPU. These are questions I promised not to post answers too :p
for a class thats named after one of the slowest combat vehicles in existance im not surprised :D
Tank - Heavy Defense Heavy Offense Low Mobility
APU monk - Low Defense Heavy Offense High Mobility
PPU monk - Heavy Defense Low Offense High Mobility
Spy - Rifle - Moderate/heavy Defense* Moderate/Heavy Offense Moderate mobility
Spy - Droner - Light Defense Moderate Offense Low Mobility
PE - High Offense High Defense High Mobility**
*offsets by range and belt loadouts
**taking into account pistol pe with decent setup not using PA
apart from some item tweaks the game atm is pretty balanced, the biggest problem right now is the damage output from APU's random damage and the lack of damage from drones.
The only changethat should be made to tanks is thier AoE, Each one should be a 1 shot/reload weapon that does far more damage ie similar to a revenge drone, only the missile/energy cell etc should weigh as much as a kami (4 weight each)
Originally posted by redjacket
but a mutated nasty whore with a 10th nipple, missing anus, and three unidentified "finger like" objects coming from her nose...
Hmm I think I lost my virginity to her
Originally posted by VetteroX
the small handfull of people that know a lot about the game, he and i included
Whoa widen the doors SGT.Cunt is in the house with his massive ego head!
Dribble Joy
07-11-03, 05:39
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
These are questions I promised not to post answers too :p
Curse you to hell and back!!!!
:p gah, I'll have to work it out my self now..... git
-=Blasehase=-
07-11-03, 06:03
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
PEs can get it down to 6.5%s all round except poison if they're *VERY* Good.
And have 400 HP buffed and 75 ATL / AGL...
my one reach this too and got 498 HLT with 50 ATL/>110 AGL [full selfbuffed]
so he can take more dmg than a tank and is fast too
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I think maybe one of the only ways to fix this problem without doing too much harm to anyone would be to increase HP Cap on Tanks only and let them have more HP...
this is a good idea too, but it must raised much to keep a good effect...
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 06:06
like I said ..not much.
Lupus studies showed CS was actually *overpowered* (5%).
Boosting Tank Defence when they own an overpowered offencive weapon is dangerous.
It's amusing to say "The PE is balanced, but APUs are overpowered, PPUs are overpowered, and Tanks are underpowered."
Even though Tank Vs PE = Balanced.... (Comparing best vs best...)
Dribble Joy
07-11-03, 06:49
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
PEs can get it down to 6.5%s all round except poison if they're *VERY* Good.
And have 400 HP buffed and 75 ATL / AGL...
Hmmm.. well after bashing and shouting at my calculator and more tea, I worked out that currently, my PE takes about 6.3% dmg from an energy/fire/xray weapon, without resist potions. hmmm...
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 06:56
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Hmmm.. well after bashing and shouting at my calculator and more tea, I worked out that currently, my PE takes about 6.3% dmg from an energy/fire/xray weapon, without resist potions. hmmm...
Silly.
Your shelter isn't capped, is it :p
Dribble Joy
07-11-03, 06:58
no it's not
if it was I would take 5.8% (dammit what am I doing wrong)
140 armour -- 9% dmg taken? with 30% reduction of this by shelter (Ie. not capped) leaves 6.3%
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 07:00
well what you've said in terms of numbers is not impossible but I would question your HP/Runspeed
And I don't know whether you're using Dist3 or Moveon these days o_O
Dribble Joy
07-11-03, 07:02
no dist3
MOVEON and PPR
rawr
atl is 85 with redflash (char is setup for redflash utterly)
hp is 428 totally buffed (only one drug, and that cancells the redflash malus)
Originally posted by jjjjkkkk
hahahaha it needs a miracle on a heavy weapons tanks
hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha
Dude, get some skills. Seriously. Get some. I can dodge shots farily well with my tank. I've been playing the same tank for 8 months. I know what I am talking about. If you actually took the time to actually look at how much the runspeed goes down with a HC weapon out you will see that it is really not that much if you have a properly set up tank. Yeah, it does go down a fair ammount, but you can still dodge shots. I can beat a lot of people in duels. Wanna know why? I practiced. Fighting with a Tank is not just running arround fireing your CS constantly spraying plasma all over the place. Go to neofrag. Fight the best tanks on your server. Study their moves. It's what I did, and still do. I am by far not the best tank out there, but I do know how to fight, and obviously you don't. You seem to be wanting KK to give you everything on a silver platter. And if you really don't like playing Tank, go play another character.
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 07:12
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
no dist3
MOVEON and PPR
rawr
atl is 85 with redflash (char is setup for redflash utterly)
hp is 428 totally buffed (only one drug, and that cancells the redflash malus) Then yea I can believe your totals quite easily being correct.
They're very slightly superior to QDs because QDs are not given with any drugs, and not given with moveon...
Instead of nerfing and de-nerfing classes in order to make tanks more viable GIVE THEM MORE GUNS!
Oh my, I'm a combat expert and I have two... TWO usable pvp weapons. Plasma and a gatling (or CS and speedgun). Spies have a lot more weapons AND those nifty gadgets. Monks can go ppu or apu and APU's have HL and FA (and can use nrg beam if HL's not an option and still almost overpower CS) AND have special combat rules (no targetting, mana pool) making them more fun to play. PE's... do I even have to mention (though they are supposed to have the most possible weapon choices).
I'd like to see either melee boost (or new STR 120 melee weapons :p ) or brand new weapons for tanks. And I don't mean "new improved and more powerful plasmas and lasers etc.", I mean NEW weapons: rare AoE flamer, huge rof 1/hour cannon, viable grenade launchers and handgrenades and plasma beam cannons too (like plasma wave). Or make most heavy weapons heavy: usable only with power armor, they need to be deployed, high damage/accuracy only at medium range but damage output high (yea, I've been playing the new UFO too much :) )... ANY of these upgrades would make me play my tank more fanatically. ;)
Heavy Weapons and Gen-Tank Power Armour should make you slower, liket hey do. Damage does need to be increased on our Cannons, they don't do enough damage for a cannon! Power Armour does need changing as well.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
like I said ..not much.
Lupus studies showed CS was actually *overpowered* (5%).
Boosting Tank Defence when they own an overpowered offencive weapon is dangerous.
It's amusing to say "The PE is balanced, but APUs are overpowered, PPUs are overpowered, and Tanks are underpowered."
Even though Tank Vs PE = Balanced.... (Comparing best vs best...) It's funny how the only weapon good PE's really fear isn't the CS, but HL. I see a CS tank running at me and I usually don't have many problems bringing them down in a timely manner. PSI capped monkies with HL on the other hand... They scare me. They output so much damage, with so little effort (full runcasting, no recticle, high range, etc.) that if they know that they are doing and are good at it, it can be almost impossible to beat them. Toss PPUs in the mix and I usually log off and find something else to do.
--Stryfe
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 16:34
Hmm... Stryfe, you quoting me? :p
I've said a few times normally in private that one of the only weapons that scares me in this game is HL :p
Just wondering.
You guys say PE's and Tanks are fairly evenly matched. I agree but have you taken stealth and the higher rate of heal into account? This usually will tip the balance in the PE's favour in a real fight (not a staged duel).
So tanks need something to compensate for that.
DjSKum
PS APU's are overpowered IMHO, mad range, no reticle, shooting round corners, insane ROF, u know the score...
If KK starts nerfing APU, they should give them access to tl3 heal..
Tanks are just fine.. I love to pvp with tank until i get paraspammed to hell.
My solution would be fixing antishocks to give immunity against
parashock for 10-15-20 seconds depending on the drug quality.
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 16:53
Heal doesn't screw things.
I don't support Stealth for PEs...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Heal doesn't screw things.
I don't support Stealth for PEs...
It does when teamed with stealth. Altho *you* don't support it your not KK are you? The fact is that a PE can attack you, he either wins or stealths and runs off to heal. He can outheal a tank then comes back and kicks your ass. I usually just fuck off somewhere for a bit when an almost dead PE stealths. Usually I've taken a good kicking too! So I come back and try and suprise him in the way that only a 7' tin can, can... Badly ;-) And I know you don't use stealth QD but you don't play every single PE on every single server do you? Just adding that because I know what you were going to say ;-)
So remove stealth for PE's and tone down APU's a bit. Maybe a small defensive boost for tanks and defo sort out AOE!
DjSKum
I believe Private Eyes should be able to use Stealth 1, but have some kind of downside to using it, dont say Synaptic Impairment cause thats just dumb.
Get enough skill for Heal Sanctum on a Tank, cast heal sanctum, heal, and use a medkit.
Altough, it'll only heal you SLIGHTLY faster if you have a 5 slot Heal and a 5 slot heal sanctum as a tank would be gimping himself in the healing power of heal too much.
With a "cookie-cuter" tank, heal spell and a medkit will let you live just a long as a heal spell, heal sanctum on a Private Eye.
They can use medkits too, but most Private Eyes wont be bothered with medkits, thier quickslots are kept more for spells, stealth, and maybe a hack tool and weapon(s).
PE's shouldn't be able to use stealth at all. PE's already have extreme defensive power, and adding stealth to that just screws balance up the arse.
A well set up PE can take almost as much of a beating as a well set up tank can, due to shelter and a better range (and power) of defensive spells.
--Stryfe
I can kill any class appart from ppu in a duel without to much trouble (appart from kreals gimpy hybrid which i am getting used to fighting again) Its gets difficult when PE's have their psi configured for run cast heal + stealth rather than psi sheild and , becuas tanks even with 5 slot heal and medkits cant heal themselves quickly enough to survive more than 6-7 assaults (well thats what was happening last night when me and shirley where fighting for ages although she was exploiting the cop bots)APU's have all their INT in psi use at rank 60+ but thats only if they use toxic beam or are accurate with locational damage HL (IE legs lol)
QuantumDelta
07-11-03, 17:58
I should say, I do use stealth in one situation;
To counter Parashock.
It's the ONLY effective Parashock counter in the game.
sigh
Originally posted by ericdraven
redjacket, i really hope you will publish a book once with all your posts... :D
(i would be the first one who buys it :p)
stop sucking up... its getting annoying...
im gonna have to agree with QD and all the losers on his side... mainly because QD is sleak and sexy... and he is always right... therefore... bite me in my ass and call me a dirty slut, ya know you want to...
but seriously... I do agree with QD, even though my opinion doesn't matter as I don't really play anymore... he tends to not be a jack-tard, self-serving, little whore who likes to stick things in places they shouldn't go... (read: small polk audio speakers in to one's rectum)
Shadow Dancer
07-11-03, 20:04
Originally posted by japata
Instead of nerfing and de-nerfing classes in order to make tanks more viable GIVE THEM MORE GUNS!
I agree. I think apus and tanks are the combat specialists. As such they should get a wide variety of weapons to use.
Originally posted by japata
APU's have HL and FA (and can use nrg beam if HL's not an option and still almost overpower CS) AND have special combat rules (no targetting, mana pool) making them more fun to play.
:rolleyes:
Mana pool isn't a good thing. Secondly, it's funny how you only mention the "perks" of apu then say their more fun to play because of that. I wish I could use basic resist 1, have 500+ health, use deflector, and a TL 3 heal like a tank can. I guess their more fun to play..... The grass is greener, blah blah.
Also look at how many apus use FA. Not that many, kuz it SUX.
Originally posted by StryfeX
It's funny how the only weapon good PE's really fear isn't the CS, but HL. I see a CS tank running at me and I usually don't have many problems bringing them down in a timely manner. PSI capped monkies with HL on the other hand... They scare me. They output so much damage, with so little effort (full runcasting, no recticle, high range, etc.) that if they know that they are doing and are good at it, it can be almost impossible to beat them. Toss PPUs in the mix and I usually log off and find something else to do.
--Stryfe
But pes have the luxury of explosive piercing which does alot of damage to apus. It takes alot less effort to kill an apu than it takes to kill a tank.
Also pes can take more HLs than a tank.
Originally posted by djskum
This usually will tip the balance in the PE's favour in a real fight (not a staged duel).
I totally agree.
Originally posted by Nixon
If KK starts nerfing APU, they should give them access to tl3 heal..
EXACTLY. Everyone is quick to bitch about apus "overpowerdness" but they don't mind their fucked up qualities.
Originally posted by REMUS
I can kill any class appart from ppu in a duel without to much trouble (appart from kreals gimpy hybrid which i am getting used to fighting again) Its gets difficult when PE's have their psi configured for run cast heal + stealth rather than psi sheild and , becuas tanks even with 5 slot heal and medkits cant heal themselves quickly enough to survive more than 6-7 assaults (well thats what was happening last night when me and shirley where fighting for ages although she was exploiting the cop bots)APU's have all their INT in psi use at rank 60+ but thats only if they use toxic beam or are accurate with locational damage HL (IE legs lol)
Kreal's hybrid is only really good for pepper park or duels. He can't buff without his PPU pa as I recall, which is dangerous if his buffs drop while he's on apu pa.
Redjacket, what's up with your spamming?
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