View Full Version : [Brainport] APU + PPU Balancer....
jeez im full of ideas today :o
Anyways :) Everyone knows that APU's are ok solo but when teamed with their own personal PPU thats when it all goes to shit and you end up with godlike defence with the best offence... well how about looking at the way hybrids were destroyed... APU makes the PPU weaker and vice versa, so how about when ur buffed, the ammount of APU they have also affects 3rd part buffs in the same way, get it ?
Shadow Dancer
06-11-03, 01:43
I like the idea.
But TBH I like kramer's idea better, about making 3rd party healing con based. So that an apu won't benefit anywhere near as much from a ppu's heal as a tank will.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I like the idea.
But TBH I like kramer's idea better, about making 3rd party healing con based. So that an apu won't benefit anywhere near as much from a ppu's heal as a tank will.
O_o I didnt think you liked kramers idea... anyway this would do the same thing really, the heal/shelt/def would be weaker on the APU, APU's would have an agressive aura, PPUs would have a calming one, they conflict so the PPU spells would be weaker on the APU...
Shadow Dancer
06-11-03, 01:55
Except kramer's idea also helps tanks have an advantage in team combat.
I also think apus should get some stuff(doesn't necassarily have to improve their PvP ability) as compensation.
Oh yea, i changed my mind in kramer's thread. Didn't you read the whole thing? :D
o_O
Nobody else has anything to say about this idea ? Yknow you all bitch about this yet when someone comes up with a possible fix you dont say a word .....
*sigh*
ericdraven
06-11-03, 10:34
Additionally, if a PPU buffs a tank there should be a H-C based penalty for the tank, and for PE/spies R-C/P-C based penalties. ;)
Originally posted by ericdraven
Additionally, if a PPU buffs a tank there should be a H-C based penalty for the tank, and for PE/spies R-C/P-C based penalties. ;)
thats it eric invite flames into my thread...
everyone bitches about APUs being overpowerd when teamed with a PPU, mostly because the PPU makes up for the APUs huge weakness so you end up with uber defence and offence on the APU... This would level it out a bit
Still like Kramer's idea better o_O Soz!
ericdraven
06-11-03, 11:04
Please come on, and a tank with a PPU strapped to his ass all the time would not be overpowered? Give me a break.. you should know it better.
Mumblyfish
06-11-03, 11:20
Also, this idea would kill hybrids. Right now, they're viable. And balanced against other characters.
Don't fucking obliterate them.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Also, this idea would kill hybrids. Right now, they're viable. And balanced against other characters.
Don't fucking obliterate them.
How? All you have to do is remove the penalty which is applied directly to the spells, and instead have it applied by the hybrid's own conflicting aura.
I can see it now.. the enemy PPUs buffing your APUs so they become weaker. Better then a holy damage boost.
Originally posted by Archeus
I can see it now.. the enemy PPUs buffing your APUs so they become weaker. Better then a holy damage boost.
You've never been Drone Combat boosted before? o_O
Originally posted by Scikar
You've never been Drone Combat boosted before? o_O
Don't leave my buffs down long enough.
Originally posted by Archeus
I can see it now.. the enemy PPUs buffing your APUs so they become weaker. Better then a holy damage boost.
well thats just like certain PE's TL 25 sheltering and TL 3 healing the enemy PPU's ..... It happens, and considering a tank is currently the gimp of all classes... they wont change from what they are now with a PPU strapped to them. Look at APU's they have point and click aiming ( I HAVE played all classes) and do obscene damage, when coupled with a PPU they also have the best defence anyone can get...
This would also mean that if they took away the ''Hybrid effect'' and just implemented this, then hybrids would actually be more usefull IMO because their damage output would not get fucked over by having PPU specced, but wouldnt have the damage output of a pure APU, Yet their buffs on them selves would be slightlyweaker than a PPU's but their buffs on other people would be alot better than currently from a hybrid, IMO I believe this would actually make Hybrids VERY viable, yet not at all overpowerd...
Do you see where im coming from ? Make it this way, the conflicting auras of APU vs PPU and removing the hybrid effect it would make hybrids alot more viable...
I would rather see no remote buffs working then them debuffing the APU.
In return give the APU some kind of offensive shields, not strong as a PPU but cause damage in return. APU should be all about giving out the pain.
TBH as a PPU i would rather be strapped to a capped pistol pe than a apu because they are quicker take more dmg and can rip through people as easy as apu's can.
Another thing I forgot to mention about the Spell.
Getting hit with a drone spell just stops you from being buffed. It is somewhat different then say getting hit as a PPU with PSI combat booster 3 (which weakens your PPU skill + stops you from buffing).
This is pretty much what is being asked for here, so personally I don't think it is a good idea. No buffs and thier own special shield spells would be better.
Originally posted by Archeus
Another thing I forgot to mention about the Spell.
Getting hit with a drone spell just stops you from being buffed. It is somewhat different then say getting hit as a PPU with PSI combat booster 3 (which weakens your PPU skill + stops you from buffing).
This is pretty much what is being asked for here, so personally I don't think it is a good idea. No buffs and thier own special shield spells would be better.
no it aint, with PA and normal imp setup, you have waaay more than minus 20 to APU, Which means that after a psi 3 you still have negative APU, But you get some extra mst and PSU in return :)
Originally posted by Archeus
Don't leave my buffs down long enough.
An APU doesn't have the luxury of being in control of when buffs are recasted on him.
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 14:05
well i missed kramers idea... but it isnt good news for spies by the sounds of it :p
and personally i would remove shelter / deflector and set it how it was... so hybrids could be done.
they would have holy heal (maybe lower the heal from holy?) and APU stuff... but no s/d
NO I LIKE THE WAY IT IS ATM...
monkacron actually works good. there is alot of flexibility in the apu weaponry for killing people and in opwars it all comes to proof. antibuffing while your teammates takes down the apu's of the enemy then chasing the ppu to hell etc... tanks are still needed to some extent for aoe spamming the vendors. spies and tanks are still usuable in op wars but people dont know how to use em. put em togheter in a tank and ask a ppu to shelter the tank then drive around shooting.
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 14:19
you are a monk yes?
tanks liked tank'O'cron too...
thats what happens when you are so boosted.
Hybrids liked bein uber hybrids... tanks loved killing all
i am patiently waiting for Spy'O'Cron (been waiting over a yeah for it now...)
im a monk im a pe im spy im a tank. When i go to an opwar i bring my apu/pe/tank/spy in that order cause thats what needed most of the time. But I do insist that this situation we have now is still the best pvp/opwar situation in a long time. Especially since you dont need a rare as a apu to go there and kill people (energy/poison/fire beams and anti shields are still non rares :) )
Ive talked to alot of people and everyone has this perfect idea to the current situation of pvp/opwar. Even I have a idea how to fix it, and Im just glad I dont work for KK being responsible for the decision that will come that will nerf some class and make another class uber (again).
/edit scikar yes im joking bout tanks and spies.
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 14:49
*sigh* you said you dont need a rare.. .then listed monk non-rares... and that seems normal?
watch a PE run up to someone with a non-rare Uzi?
how about i use a Tangent Assault Rifle in PvP against a Pain Easer? see how far I get?
MONKS can ge taway with non-rares, no one else can, thats the whole problem... Monk offence, with PPU defences (a la buffs) means everyone dies.
WTF does a spy do in op wars? and ffs dont be niave enough to say snipe O_o
PEs? they run around like fuck shooting randomly, as do tanks
monks? well they sit there and kill everyone else on the field
So the monks don't need rares and they can just ruun along and find, but the other classes have to buy a Rhino, and use that, and they need to get a PPU to shelter it as well, and even then they can't kill the enemy PPUs? Yep, that sounds balanced to me.
For a minute I thought you were joking, then I realised you were being serious. o_O
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
[BWTF does a spy do in op wars? and ffs dont be niave enough to say snipe O_o[/B]
Why not?
I've watched Kurai and Jaggeh in action in Op wars. Both are spies and they both do pretty well in the fight.
Monks can get away with Rares? For me, Holy Para + Carth is my only rares I have and I rarely use them. So yes. APU probably not if they are up against a large number of people who are high level.
Also while they may not bring rares, they still carry one of the most expensive easily droppable inventories in an op war.
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 15:36
dont get me wrong... i am not saying they cant snipe... but its not interesting or usefull usually.
due to no one standing a chance against PPU / APU combos you get 10-15 people running full speed around each other. this does hell for your aiming over distances i should imagine
and besides... what about pistol spies? (like me)
"resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
its funny how all these dicussion ends up with every other class being discussed and topic gets lost in the middle.
Anyways Everyone knows that APU's are ok solo but when teamed with their own personal PPU thats when it all goes to shit and you end up with godlike defence with the best offence... well how about looking at the way hybrids were destroyed... APU makes the PPU weaker and vice versa, so how about when ur buffed, the ammount of APU they have also affects 3rd part buffs in the same way, get it ?
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 16:18
hehe i know ^.^
personally i like my solution (strange that...) of dumping shelter / deflecter and losing the APU = -PPU / PPU = -APU thing. this would sort it, make hybrids with no s/d (and maybe lower holy heals output)
this would also make tanks the defence guys again, followed by PEs, followed by monks, followed by spies (me).
Junkie
QuantumDelta
06-11-03, 18:43
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
hehe i know ^.^
personally i like my solution (strange that...) of dumping shelter / deflecter and losing the APU = -PPU / PPU = -APU thing. this would sort it, make hybrids with no s/d (and maybe lower holy heals output)
this would also make tanks the defence guys again, followed by PEs, followed by monks, followed by spies (me).
Junkie
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one...
MAYBE the already suggested S/D = Self Cast Only.
However not removal.
As for "spies defence is weakest" ....not my spy o_O
My Spy is > unbuffed APUs for defence.
Possibly even > unbuffed Tank for defence.
I do like the idea of self-cast S/D because it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD.
It returns all characters from the PPU backed soup of current time to their "natural" defence and offence with a small boost from PPUs and heals.
PPU would be truly curative only, in FF Games these characters still exist in my teams.
What's the current difference between FF Games and NC in terms of "the PPU" ?
Even Parashock exists in FF Games, however, there are a few counters to it, and it does not have this insane RoF.
Even Shelter and Deflector exist in FF Games, yet they SERIOUSLY lesson the amount you can heal your character (well shelter does).
Ahem. :p
ghandisfury
06-11-03, 19:45
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
thats it eric invite flames into my thread...
everyone bitches about APUs being overpowerd when teamed with a PPU, mostly because the PPU makes up for the APUs huge weakness so you end up with uber defence and offence on the APU... This would level it out a bit
The PPU makes up for everyones weekness, not just the APUs. A certain class shouldn't effect another class any differently than ALL other classes. Heal and buffs are fine. The only things that need to change is parashock, damage boost, and there needs to be a tool to remove people from battle. EVERYTHING else from the PPU aspect is just about perfect (imo).
DB is fine, you can't spam with it and drugs stop it as well as spells. It is also about the only thing that will cut through most shields.
This is starting to turn into another Monkey thread. Keep on topic.
ghandisfury
06-11-03, 19:51
Originally posted by Archeus
DB is fine, you can't spam with it and drugs stop it as well as spells. It is also about the only thing that will cut through most shields.
No it isn't, it doesn't cost enough for the damage it does. It needs to stack as it does on mobs.
It doesn't need to stack. the fact it doesn't stack means that the PPU is less prone to try and hit the player multiple times. Allow a drug to be taken while they are switching to another weapon.
DB doesn't actually do any damage. It is the attack afterwards that does, and then it is based on your resists to protect you.
Shadow Dancer
06-11-03, 20:29
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
due to no one standing a chance against PPU / APU combos you get 10-15 people running full speed around each other. this does hell for your aiming over distances i should imagine
And? You forget tank/ppu can do a good deal of carnage as well. Look at Megaman and strap on Psycho Killa. They constantly cleared out sectors.
Anything+PPU can be very deadly if it's a good team.
Originally posted by Archeus
No buffs and thier own special shield spells would be better.
Not a bad idea.
Originally posted by Archeus
I can see it now.. the enemy PPUs buffing your APUs so they become weaker. Better then a holy damage boost.
huh? How would it be weaker? The ppu buff would be weaker, but no the apu. THe apu would still be stronger overall because of buffs. Unless I read fenyx's idea wrong. Did you mean ppu buffs would cause apu offensive power to go DOWN(because of apu decreasing)? Fenyx I hope you didn't mean that.
Originally posted by ericdraven
Please come on, and a tank with a PPU strapped to his ass all the time would not be overpowered? Give me a break.. you should know it better.
The tank is supposed to have kickass defense. Due to health caps and psi armor, an APU basically has tank defense(if set up properly) after PPU buffs. A tank doesn't get APU offense when ppu buffed. So yes apu deserves a penalty or maybe tanks should get a health boost.
Anyways, I also prefer overall the idea to make S/D self-cast.
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 21:25
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one...
MAYBE the already suggested S/D = Self Cast Only.
However not removal.
As for "spies defence is weakest" ....not my spy o_O
My Spy is > unbuffed APUs for defence.
Possibly even > unbuffed Tank for defence.
I do like the idea of self-cast S/D because it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD.
It returns all characters from the PPU backed soup of current time to their "natural" defence and offence with a small boost from PPUs and heals.
PPU would be truly curative only, in FF Games these characters still exist in my teams.
What's the current difference between FF Games and NC in terms of "the PPU" ?
Even Parashock exists in FF Games, however, there are a few counters to it, and it does not have this insane RoF.
Even Shelter and Deflector exist in FF Games, yet they SERIOUSLY lesson the amount you can heal your character (well shelter does).
Ahem. :p
hmm... then go the way that makes shelter / deflecter lower the effects of good AND bad things?
only problem is that basically only heal would be affected on the good side.
and i know spies dont have shit defence, if i ever see you online ill send you my setup :p
Making s/d self cast only is the wrong way to go, it leads to PPUs having even more defence than all the others around them. I would rather see a removal of s/d completely, add a method for tanks to absorb damage from PPUs to protect them, and make heals 50% more effective when you're not under attack, and 50% less effective when you are being attacked.
Damage Boost is not a problem, IMO it's a true passive spell. Desite what many claim, passive does not mean having no offense, it means having indirect offense. DB fits this.
QuantumDelta
06-11-03, 21:50
Scikar, the problem with that is that unlike in a top down/turn based / point and click RPG Neocron's fast past somewhat FPSesque combat means that could probably be exploited...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Scikar, the problem with that is that unlike in a top down/turn based / point and click RPG Neocron's fast past somewhat FPSesque combat means that could probably be exploited...
You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that. You can't exactly pass off an idea because you think it could probably be exploited without explaining why/how and the effects of this.
QuantumDelta
06-11-03, 22:29
Originally posted by Scikar
You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that. You can't exactly pass off an idea because you think it could probably be exploited without explaining why/how and the effects of this.
Depends on how well co-ordinated things are, but generally, I'd just say "..screw shooting the Tanks" and shoot the PPU.
You automatically damage every single Tank in the area....
Massively, if you have enough damage behind you (talking large fights here).
After this spasm of one target being shot to hell - damaging five targets, those five targets fall over, and this one remaining target lays twitching on the floor.
Or similiar scenarios.
I don't really like it, even if the PPU spam holy heals everyone he becomes a RISK to the party because HIS resists are SHIT compared to those of the Tanks he is supporting.
Instead of attacking the Tanks resists it just rapes the Tank on the PPUs Resists, if it even takes resists into account (PSI Shield does not, PSI shield is the only thing in the game remotely like this and it is so BEYOND buggy/useless I would not want to try it in this kind of situation).
I always shuddered when people suggested this idea.
Also removing S/D would mean the end of the Pistol PE Period, Totally, WORSE THAN THE LIBERATOR NERF.
So, I'm sorry, but I hate the idea of removing Shelter and Deflector for so many damned reasons it's not even funny.
Shadow Dancer
07-11-03, 00:43
Originally posted by Scikar
Desite what many claim, passive does not mean having no offense, it means having indirect offense.
Then PPUs could be remade into the "summoners" of neocron then?
Viduus[JBX]
07-11-03, 00:56
No... what would happen then would simply be that PPU + *any class except APU* would be untouchable by an APU -- so a tank w/ PPU vs an APU + PPU would mean certain death for the APU.
*clarification* -- this is regarding the original idea.
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