View Full Version : Neocron Appeal over other MMORPGs
Progenitor
05-11-03, 22:52
I was reading over in one of the many FFXI boards and came across this comment (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=106763669433904&num=52&page=2) (top post) and I realized something.
When thinking about it, the appeal that Neocron has, is that it combines both SKILL and the Level-treadmill.
With NC relying on the twitch reflexes of the player, there is a certain amount of skill required to kill your opponent. Given identical setups, it is the player with skill that will win. Luck or randomness doesn't affect the outcome at all. (Maybe LAG, but that is another story alltogether :))
But NC also includes the level treadmill, giving you that sense of ORPG where you are collecting loot and cash (to buy the loot you don't find), so that your character advances in the traditional RPG sense.
There isn't any of the randomness, (except for APUs), where if the gods of randomness hate you today, you can't win for trying. There isn't a lot of luck involved in combat - it is your skills that count.
In all honesty, Neocron is ahead of the game in that respect and they should be promoting it as such!
-p
Agree 100%.
The combat system in Neocron is by far the best imo.
Of course, everyone has different tastes though.
Dribble Joy
05-11-03, 23:03
rar, indeed.
NC would be far more popular IF IT WAS ACTUALLY ADVERTISED.
Nullifidian
05-11-03, 23:23
RPG has nothing to do with treadmills.
THERE HAS YET TO BE AN MMORPG. Levelling, and cash, and shit like that have absofuckinglutely NOTHING to do with ROLEPLAYING. Jesus H. CHrist, when will people get it through there goddamn thick skulls that roleplaying games are ones in which you play a role in a virtual world.
Balancing a bunch of fucking stats and running a level treadmill do not constitute playing a role. RPG's are also about choices. But not choice in "which skill should I pick" but "what part should I play in changing the world"
Neocron is not an RPG.
AO is not an RPG
DAoC is not an RPG
Everquest is not an RPG
Morrwind IS an RPG
Knights of the Old Republic IS an RPG
Baldur's Gate IS an RPG
Baldur's Gate 2 IS an RPG
Final Fantasy 11 is NOT an RPG
Fallout is an RPG
Fallout 2 is an RPG
Xeno Gears is an RPG
Deus Ex is an RPG
In games like AO, DAoC, Neocron, etc. your character doesn't mean jack shit. You can't do anything to affect anything in the world so you might as well not exist. Hence, no matter what you do, you can't actually play a role in those worlds; you're just a sack of numbers.
Whereas in games like Fallout 2, what you do has effects on the world around you. NPCs react to you differently based on your actions, how many people you've killed, and whether you are a good or bad person. If you join the slavers guild, you become feared by many, and respected in the town of Den, but hated by folks like Rangers. Characters act in more ways than simply "attack or not attack". Most importantly, you feel like you are part of a virtual world; that your character could be an atual real person.
In Neocron, you aren't a person. You're a toon that sits around shouting incomprehensible garbage like what your "skill levels" are, and talk about things like "weapon caps". If a person living in the world of Neocron were to hear nearly ANYTHING said by the players on a daily basis, they'd immediately assume your certifiably fucking nuts, and either disregard you or kill you. Arguments about "resist setups" and "runspeed caps" and other similar bullshit really wear on my nerves over time.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Balancing a bunch of fucking stats and running a level treadmill do not constitute playing a role.
Unfortunately... when you mention RPG to gaming communities/reviewers/anything game related, they instantly think of stats and levels and stuff, because that's how RPGs have always been done on PC games.
-Krll
Nullifidian
05-11-03, 23:40
Originally posted by Krll
Unfortunately... when you mention RPG to gaming communities/reviewers/anything game related, they instantly think of stats and levels and stuff, because that's how RPGs have always been done on PC games.
-Krll
Which is only because of stupid antiquated technological limitations. Numbers were used to represent character traits because the technology wasn't available to represent it in other ways. The technology is available now, so it's high fucking time they dropped this ancient stat bullshit and get with the program.
Hmmm. Fallout.
All those games you listed are RPG's.
Granted, some are more indepth and obvious than others. Simply; In real life, I'm not a cool looking asian dude who's good with a pistol and hacks. I'm a polish kid who likes sitting around, screwing with people, writing etc.
Yet when I play games - I'm taking on that role. I might not speak the Queens English while fighting a dragon in Dark Age of Camelot; but by playing a class; by getting good at playing a class - we're playing a role.
Come on; I bet maybe 1% (probably less) of the people that play this game are as badass as they pretend to be in-game.
They're playing a role alright.
Being able to effect the game world has _nothing_ to do with a game being an RPG or not.
_Technically_ any game where your avatar has any kind of personality, goals or objectives _is_ an RPG because you are playing a role (may not be a big or important role but its a rile none the less) as opposed to a game where you control a spaceship or car or something which is clearly _not_ a role
The actually problem with MMORPGs is whether or not a particular playstyle is forced upon you which then detracts from the fact that your are playing a role and focuses you more on partaking in that playstyle.
For example in SWG if you want to sit in the cantina all day and do nothing but socialise, you can and you wont suffer in the game world because of it (there are even character classes that are designed around this kind of role and are not only rewarded for this behaviour in terms of experience but the classes provide a service to other character classes)
AO by comparison had the potential to be a great RPG (in terms of all the support for social and RP gameplay) yet the skill system meant that if you wanted to do _anything_ (even just make stuff) you had to go out and hit stuff over the head to gain levels, which lead to having to do even more of that to get stuff that made it easier to do it some more - pretty soon all you are doing is going out and hitting stuff for one reason or another)
By comparison while NC doesnt initially force you into one particular playstyle the way that xp is gated at higher levels means you cant progress beyond a certain point without hitting stuff over the head, and since theres a pre-disposition of the players to PvP any time you dont spend hitting stuff over the head to level up is more ground you lose to those that did and since the game is 100% accessible (excluding PvP) to LE chipped players there comes a point where PvP is also inevitably forced upon the player.
You do have a point there, not many MMO's out there have much interaction with the world or storyline. I would love to see a game where your actions can change storylines or create news for everyone to see. Killing an important faction partymember changes the project plans of the faction and starts a bounty on your head, even the corrupt cops would love to capture you for the cash. Thats a little mroe involved and would serve a higher pourpose than just trying to get as many rares as possible.
Originally posted by Tank!
You do have a point there, not many MMO's out there have much interaction with the world or storyline. I would love to see a game where your actions can change storylines or create news for everyone to see.
That's been my attraction to Face of Mankind
They're stripped out all the stats/classes/balancing issues
There will be 1 server / 1 world / 1 char per account
Your actions in missions for your faction dictate the course of the storyline and future missions for the whole server... GM's will collectively be custodians of the story and the missions - role-playing senior faction officials and thus being able to directly affect changes based on community actions
Only downside is this game ain't even in closed BETA yet - so all these great ideas might not come together in a great game... but all we can do is wait and hope :)
Nullifidian
06-11-03, 01:00
In Neocron, I'm not playing a role. Niether is anyone else.
They're all playing Space Invaders. Whoever gets the highest score wins!
All anyone ever does in Neocron is:
1) Cap
2) Get rares
3) PvP
Those aren't roles. That's running a treadmill, getting ph4t l00t, and pwning. Hell, in PvP people don't even play what character they like, they play what character has the greatest PvP advantage. There's something seriously wrong when people don't invest in a skill that they genuinely would like because "it would gimp them for PvP."
oh yeah, there is one thing that borders on playing a role:
4) Build shit
But I think most will agree, doing that becomes boring as fuck in no time flat.
So in Neocron, you can play the role of a techie dude, or you can just play Space Invaders.
EDIT: About Face of Mankind -
It looks to be the first and only MMORPG to understand the true concept of RPG. Unfortunately I have a terrible feeling that it will become vaporware.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
So in Neocron, you can play the role of a techie dude, or you can just play Space Invaders.
Well you _choose_ to play that way (because you either place value on that gameplay style or you have no interest in the alternatives) but that doesnt mean the option to RP isnt there (granted however its a little hollow if youre the only one RPing....) I just think that too many people are obsessed with PvP and PKing to notice/bother/be interested/care/try anything different
Stats, lvling and whatnot is the biggest ooc creating factor in rpgs. Its kind of sad seeing that there is so few mmorpgs that try to push the boundries a little more. In my view face of mankind looks on paper to be the one pushing the most for the time being, but that has yet to be proven.
In single player rpgs you can be the hero and change the outcome of the history and the world you are living in. Thats because the game is centered around you and you are vital to its story. You cant transfer that to a mmorpg. Everybody cant be the hero or main badguy. I feel that people wishes to change the world in an mmorpg is a bit unrealistic. You can be a hero among your friends and do a great deal of difference in small incidents. World change however starts when alot of people start to pull in the same direction over time. Which in other words is called strategy and for a player will turn into meaning. A goal, something to fight for other than pwning and getting lvls.
I think that the company who manage to create a hybrid between and mmorpg and an rts has got a winner on its hands. I dont mean rpg in the lvling and stats sence. All that stuff could just as well be an invisible system or not included at all.
If I may. Massive Multiplayer Online Realistic Abilities For Characters No or little Lvls No or little Stats Fps Dont Have To Be Realistic Setting But At The Core A Big Real Time Strategy Game.
In short MMORAFCNLNSFDHTBRSBUTCABRTSG. Hmm look at that, I just invented a genre.
Of course if someone create a 'Super Heros Online' game them we could all be the heros :-)
But still nothing anyone did would be outstanding because all you've done is raised the bar for everyone (yes you have super powers and can save the world or destroy it but then so do I).
The core problem here is that people do not like being equal (hence the NC PvP players preferance for NC over Planetside) and people do not like being just the population of a world (and I'm generalising here but those people cant or dont like to role play)
I agree, Neocron is a GREAT layed out game in the ways you mentioned.
Unfortunatly, the game is plagued by carebear rulesets and bugs. People would rather play an INFERIOR GAME that has good pvp rulesets and no bugs.
Take DARK AGE OF CAMELOT for example. This game never FRE's. I know KK seems to think its not thier code, but instead its all our computers....but then tell me this...why do DAoC, EQ and UO all run perfectly on my computer, while Neocron crashes on a semi-hourly basis? These constant crashes and bugs are a HUGE hinderance to Neocron's success.
Second is the carebear pvp ruleset. Really, the ruleset doesn't help...it only angers both the non-pvp players as well as the pvp-players. How? Soullight.
Let me explain: Soullight is supposed to keep people from killing allies, and from killing in noob leveling grounds. Does it? No. People kill there all the time, and simply do a few missions after to rectify the situation. So thanks to soullight, the characters that got PK'd are pissed because the SL system doesn't stop no one...and the characters who killed hte people are pissed because they have to waste time doing missions.
Both sides are left unhappy.
Also, there are many errors in the soullight system. A player with 100 SL can go to -13 in one kill, which could be a mistake? A TG player can PK 3 CityAdmin players in the TG Chaos Caves and go into red SL? The list goes on...soullight doesn't help anyone.
Lets face it. Neocron was a game MADE for pvp. If you don't like PVP, you should have your LE in or you should be playing a different game. The amount of non-pvp content in this game is pathetic at best. What I mean by that is items, monsters to kill, dungeons to raid, etc. Also, leveling is not a hard process...its a quick process. All these make up a good PVP oriented game. Thats what Neocron is, whether you like it or not. Think of any big MMORPG. UO. EQ. DAOC. They all have absolutely mind blowing amounts of items to collect and monsters to fight, as well as quests to complete. DAoC has a seeming unlimited amount of magic items that can be collected. Also in DAoC, you get a total of 10-15 quests from leveling to 1-50...and it takes months and months to do so without power leveling. If you are not a pvper, you should be playing games like that.
What im saying is....SOULLIGHT IS NOT NEEDED. If you dont want to pvp, leave your LE in. Thats what its for. Everyone else should be under an 'all-out-assault' rule where you can kill or be killed by anyone.
Finally, the faction system. Its bullshit. People's jaws drop to the floor when a TT attacks a TT (for example). So what? I hear everyday in the news about an American attacking another American, even to the death. Theres ALWAYS a reason. Sure they are from the same country, and therefore allied with one another in a nationalistic way....but they still fight and kill each other, because they have thier reasons. Same applies for Factions.
Blah....long one.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
In Neocron, I'm not playing a role. Niether is anyone else.
They're all playing Space Invaders. Whoever gets the highest score wins!
All anyone ever does in Neocron is:
1) Cap
2) Get rares
3) PvP
You can play roles within those 3 rather broad boundaries
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Those aren't roles. That's running a treadmill, getting ph4t l00t, and pwning. Hell, in PvP people don't even play what character they like, they play what character has the greatest PvP advantage. There's something seriously wrong when people don't invest in a skill that they genuinely would like because "it would gimp them for PvP."
I play a role in PvP, I execute heretic psi monks in the name of Crahn. But Drikie as a character was and still is to a certain degree, though not as much any more, a biker chick. Which means that yeah I am quite possibly slightly gimped in terms of RoF on my libby because of my 20 vehicle use but oh well.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
EDIT: About Face of Mankind -
It looks to be the first and only MMORPG to understand the true concept of RPG. Unfortunately I have a terrible feeling that it will become vaporware.
I'm also looking forward to FoMK. Might be quite good.
"Roleplaying" is an active skill you can`t obtain by levelling. :D
300 people on a server will have the same amount of opinions. But who i am to judge them?
It`s me who is responsible for the fun i get out of NC. I can`t blame anyone else.
[i]EDIT: About Face of Mankind -
It looks to be the first and only MMORPG to understand the true concept of RPG. Unfortunately I have a terrible feeling that it will become vaporware. [/B]
I hope you're wrong, time will say...
Jesterthegreat
06-11-03, 14:35
Originally posted by Rith
That's been my attraction to Face of Mankind
They're stripped out all the stats/classes/balancing issues
There will be 1 server / 1 world / 1 char per account
Your actions in missions for your faction dictate the course of the storyline and future missions for the whole server... GM's will collectively be custodians of the story and the missions - role-playing senior faction officials and thus being able to directly affect changes based on community actions
Only downside is this game ain't even in closed BETA yet - so all these great ideas might not come together in a great game... but all we can do is wait and hope :)
end of december...
hurry.... ^.^
:edit: www.darkfallonline.com (i think thats the addy) looks promising
im not convinced about FOMK, its got some good points but the graphics as they stand not have me convinced, once i see the game in action maybe, but as it is im still gonna be playing neocron for a long time.
the fact that theres no leveling up could vastly reduce the play time of the game unless there is a lot of stuff to do, look at planetside, its just PvP and it got boring real fast.
having said that i will be checking out FOMK in either BETA or retail to at least check it out.
but i still love playing neocron, and log on nearly every day.
To quote Dave "Fargo" Kosak (SW:G) forum:
"...And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
* If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
* If there is a number, make it higher
* If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it ..."
;)
Full story (very funny!!!) (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79451&highlight=kosak)
Originally posted by Velvet
* If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it ..."
and, in NC's case, try and 'Sex' it
and it seems it doesnt have to move either!
Originally posted by 5150
Of course if someone create a 'Super Heros Online' game them we could all be the heros :-)
theres one in the akin. i seen the shots and it looks funky
Nullifidian
06-11-03, 17:06
Originally posted by Thundra
theres one in the akin. i seen the shots and it looks funky
It's called City of Heroes (http://www.cityofheroes.com/)
Neocron has Best pvp system ever for an mmorpg 2nd worst hinderence to that system, with the exception of UO's stat loss.
And with a nerfed pvp ruleset I dont see what neocron has over other mmorpgs sure as hell isn't content or a challendge.
Nullifidian
06-11-03, 17:18
WHat I've observed with PvP is that most only find it fun when you have little to nothing to lose. Which is why OP fights in their current state on any server other than Jupiter are actually fun.... when you have a PPU reserrect you.
Getting ganked in an Anarchy or Hunting zone is NOT fun. Why? Downtime, that's why. You spend 10 minutes waiting for SI to go away, spend 5-10 getting re-poked, and up to half an hour getting your belt back. And of course there is always the chance that your belt was looted. The penalty for dieing in Neocron is too high. Yes, death should carry with it a negative, but most MMORPGs, and even MMOFPS's have found that it's plenty penalty just forcing the player to travel back to where they were. No one complains there aren't enough death penalties in any otjher game I've played.
You wanna call my opinion carebear? Fuck you, shows what you know. You lower the penalties for death to eliminate all the POS timesinks, and you'll find A LOT more people PvPing. In my book, that ain't carebear.
@Nullifidian
Yea that is carebear funny to see how people like you have an opinion that is far from almost every pvp mmorpg that quite frankly has way more people playing that way and has a dev team that sure as hell know alot more than you do.
SB - Long wait for rez sicness - Repair armour very costly - Any items and gold you got lvlin say goodbye to all that as well - long walk back.
UO Seige - Full loot enought said.
Daoc - Cash - rez sicness - and most likely a very long walk back.
DAoC is the most carebear game on the planet.
i lose a bit of cash
OHNOS
yes u get res sickness but u use the cash to get rid of it. u never need to repair anything really. now and then but i hardly ever did. its just so whimpy. in PVP pink fluffy bunnys should be bouncing around.
but to agree to some extent with nul that makin it more carebear makes more people pvp is true. look how many people go pvp in DAoC as u dont loose anythign at all for dying in pvp areas.
altho i dont actually want it carebear like as DAoC's pvp is boring as hell
Originally posted by Thundra
DAoC is the most carebear game on the planet.
Wrong.
RPKing on the PVP server is 110% possable and fun. There is NO consequence for killing ANYONE, any LEVEL, any REALM....it is exactly what Neocron would be WITHOUT soullight.
So once Neocron loses the soullight shit....then it will be more hardcore then DAoC...unfortunately as long as the carebear soullight rules are in this game, yes....even DAoC is more hardcore then it.
Oh and if you dont believe me you can ask the other 1300 people that will be playing on the pvp server ALONE (not to mention the 30+ other servers) tonight. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Thundra
i lose a bit of cash
Guess what I would much rather lose some cash than all my SL and spend a few hours fixing it. And gain OOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSS My used medpack
You lose some gold in daoc? Neocron what do u lose psi boost or a medpack
Lol bud ur a smart person gidhe up u will bury use all
Originally posted by KimmyG
Guess what I would much rather lose some cash than all my SL and spend a few hours fixing it. And gain OOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSS My used medpack
You lose some gold in daoc? Neocron what do u lose psi boost or a medpack
Lol bud ur a smart person gidhe up u will bury use all
Hehe I agree. I think getting a medkit is more carebear then some money. And at least the money is handed RIGHT TO YOU, you dont need to hack a belt to get it.
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