A small philosophy on monks i've been thinking about.

[Artie]

Please, hear me out on this.

Monks in Neocron have always been a touchy subject. They're either too strong, either too weak, and people complain no matter what. (the only constant :p) However, as much as people hate teh monks, they still exist because they are a integral part to the storyline, as well as a necessary part of OP battles and regular PvP'ing.

Now, this is coming from someone who has been removed from nc for about 6 months. Granted, i'm a bit rusty and it's hard to gauge where the monks are right now. But i can tell you this. I've played most of Beta 4, as well as a devout retail player, and monks always seemed a bit off. When they were in Beta 4, they were as viable as being a droner (i was a droner back then, it was hell) and psi regened very very very slowly.

However, most people with monks complain about PPU monks. They argue that they affect PvP so drastically that it's become a literal "monk-o-cron" and this reminds me of the days beta. (when monks got a much needed boost and the same thing happened that is happening now)

Since the death of hybrids (excuse me, balanced :p ) the monks have been divided into the "please don't put me into a PPU category" apu's, and the "without me MC5 is impossible" ppu's. However, one must argue that APU's and PPU's when teamed are a very strong force. (as well as tanks for that matter) So i propose a skill sink. Yes yes yes, another thing to make playing NC more difficult but hear me out some more.

If KK placed a DEX skill called say "Psi manipulation" or something wacky like that, you could determine how effective buffing from a PPU would affect you. Vica Versa for De-Buffing (the more points you had in Psi manipulation, the less likely a debuff spell would work). Now, it being a DEX skill, would make it VERY difficult for APU's and Tanks to get those bonus's....PE's would be forced to use Psi manip and take points away from their precious Rifle/Pistol, and same with spies. The people who would benifit most would be spies (pure tradeskillers wouldn't really care) followed by PE's, then tanks, then APU's...(therefore evening out the PvP scale when buffed by PPU's. Remember, a quick note would be that buffing yourself doesn't matter on the scale (therefore PPU's don't have to have psi manipulation, and PE's and Spy's if wanting to just solo would also have no problem)

For example, take Pistol Booster 3. If you had a skill of psi manip at 50, you would attain around 50-75 percent of the bonus the pistol booster would give you. The higher your skill, the closer you would come to "capping" the bonus. Of course, the higher the tl of the ppu spell affecting you would require a higher amount of psi manipulation in order to benifit from it.

Well, what do you think? I was thinking this through and i thought it was a perfect solution. PPU's would still be around, it would balance them out (making them less hated :angel:) and if people still want to be "UBER BUFFZ0RZ" they would have to sacrifice their DEX completely if tank, or lots of it if they're spy or PE. Of course, there'd also be perhaps a selection of Brain chip implants like Psi manip 1, 2 and 3...and there could even be a psi manip power armor (for spy only, req's like 115 DEX) that would uber buff your psi manipulation points to something like 200.

Any ideas, suggestions? Just a thought.....^_^

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Artie
Now, this is coming from someone who has been removed from nc for about 6 months. Granted, i'm a bit rusty and it's hard to gauge where the monks are right now. But i can tell you this. I've played most of Beta 4, as well as a devout retail player, and monks always seemed a bit off.

Come back and witness the problem please.....This isn't fixing anything, only nerfing PPUs. kthxby

[Artie]

i'm not nerfing them directly. All i'm trying to do is make them less effective for PvP when BUFFING OTHER PEOPLE. And, on top of that, they can buff people just like before, but the other classes have to invest points into it in order to receive the effects.

If anything, i'm actually gimping all the classes except the ppu. This would also take away the ability for people to power lvl lowbies as fast as the lowbies would have to have a certain skill lvl for them to be effectively buffed.

Kthxbye.^_^

[Shadow Dancer]

I like the idea. Just a bit unsure though. But I do like it. It won't be "easy street" for someone to just have a ppu up their rectum.



Apus would actually have to sacrifice. Which would be nice. I can remain fast and furious while all the pussy apus on pluto will be slow due to having to put points into psi manip since they want buffs.


Tanks could "easily" spare points into this IMO. Maybe making them the best partner for ppus isntead of apus.


The only problem is that it COULD lead to ppus being useless, if not balanced right.

But I like it.


And it doesn't actually nerf anyone.

[Artie]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I like the idea. Just a bit unsure though. But I do like it. It won't be "easy street" for someone to just have a ppu up their rectum.



Apus would actually have to sacrifice. Which would be nice. I can remain fast and furious while all the pussy apus on pluto will be slow due to having to put points into psi manip since they want buffs.


Tanks could "easily" spare points into this IMO. Maybe making them the best partner for ppus isntead of apus.


The only problem is that it COULD lead to ppus being useless, if not balanced right.

But I like it.


And it doesn't actually nerf anyone.

Ahhh thanks ^_^ Apu's could lead a more solitary existence, or (if they so prefer, and have a PPU up their ass) they would have to sacrifice some of their offensive powers. APU's would definately still be in the lead in comparing sheer power of their casts, but, be more in check.

Tanks WOULD be able to benifit from this the most, but i think that's ok. Tanks should be foremost the ones to benifit from being in a group, and if they really wanna team play, they might have to sacrifice some of their agility, so they wouldn't be so fast.

However, spies would definately have the most to play with in terms of chugging points into psi manip, and with that psi manip power armor, they would be the most easily buffed and therefore pistol spies actually *gasp* could be viable. ^_^

PE's would have to mull over the points, and invest it point by point sullenly (like they do with all dex related skills, lol) Perhaps if they drug they would be able to use the psi manip power armor, but it's difficult at best, as well as difficult to obtain (Perhaps the psi manip suit could be a DOY item, just as long as it's not Crahn specific, too much on one faction == bad thing)

I think i'm going to come up with a point chart when i get off work in about 6 hours or so. Until then, ta!

[Judge]

After thinking about it I do kinda like the idea. As a PE I like being able to just go off and solo on my own, with my own buffs and heals. And tbh I don't actually ever use a PPU even in PP fights. The only time that I might would be in an OP fight atm. But with these rules PPUs would definitely not be as prodominant to a succesful OP attack.

Basically I like it but.... PPU buffs shouldn't be useless even with 0 points in psi manip. Maybe make them just better than PEs self buffs when cast on others with no psi manip. Though I don't know exactly how that would affect things balancewise.

Oh yeah.... also Parashock needs to be made PvM only. Parashock just sucks and shouldn't be in the game, none of the freezer weps should be in the game.

[Artie]

Originally posted by Judge
After thinking about it I do kinda like the idea. As a PE I like being able to just go off and solo on my own, with my own buffs and heals. And tbh I don't actually ever use a PPU even in PP fights. The only time that I might would be in an OP fight atm. But with these rules PPUs would definitely not be as prodominant to a succesful OP attack.

Basically I like it but.... PPU buffs shouldn't be useless even with 0 points in psi manip. Maybe make them just better than PEs self buffs when cast on others with no psi manip. Though I don't know exactly how that would affect things balancewise.

Oh yeah.... also Parashock needs to be made PvM only. Parashock just sucks and shouldn't be in the game, none of the freezer weps should be in the game.

True. You want people to be able to use buffs even without psi manip, but if you have that number too high, then people will just never put any points in it, and PPU's will waste away....

I say, make it 25 percent effective, if the tl of the spell is equal to your level. Then the higher the diff between the tl and your level, the lower the effectiveness (i.e if your rank is 40 and the tl of the spell is like 104 or something :P) and that is inversely proportional to the anti buffs (more effective the lower rank you are)

also, don't add the whole Para PvM argument on this thread, the last thing i need is 50 pissed off PPU players Pm'ing me going ONOZ! and such..../me sighs.


Just my 2nc ^_^

[QuantumDelta]

TBH I don't like the thought too much, although it is true it benefits Tanks....it benefits every class except the Spy and the PE -_-

Just an FYI as well, PE Buffs, typically....QDs...are almost as good as foreign cast PPU buffs, that's how weak PPU buffs are now.

PPU-foreign have something like 15% advantage over PE-Self-Cast.

I could be amusing and say put it in STR, however I am going to say...this one wont work really...

It might be a good concept for sixth stat theory, though...

*Reads artie's post below...*
*Goes off to do some photoshopping of why this is a *BAD* Idea*

[Artie]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
TBH I don't like the thought too much, although it is true it benefits Tanks....it benefits every class except the Spy and the PE -_-

Just an FYI as well, PE Buffs, typically....QDs...are almost as good as foreign cast PPU buffs, that's how weak PPU buffs are now.

PPU-foreign have something like 15% advantage over PE-Self-Cast.

I could be amusing and say put it in STR, however I am going to say...this one wont work really...

It might be a good concept for sixth stat theory, though...

yes however this idea wasen't meant to be geared torwards capped pe's.

I remember alotta people buffing a n00b freind of theirs so that he'd lvl uber fast. This would stop the idea dead in it's tracks. Tanks would require more customization (always a good thing) and they would have a place to slam points into in their dex. APU's would suffer, (as they should imho because apu ppu teams are kinda cheap) and PE's could just not put any in when they cap. Spies have plenty of dex to blow into it (yeah, they'll want to jam everything into RC or PC but comeon, they don't neccesarily need it that much) Eh, oh wellz...just me daydreaming ^_^

Maybe i'll email helpdesk or something and actually put effort into getting it implemented. hmmm o_O

[Mr_Snow]

It could work but would gimp pes and spies becuse of their need for dex for rifle or pistol aswell as t-c and agility these dont leave alot of free points about.

tbh I dont think people would give a shit about not being able to kill a ppu if they didnt para spam and if they didnt make anybody partnered with them almost as invincible as they are so im still of the opinion of removing para and lowering values of foreign cast spells which should do the trick without nerfing ppus or gimping any other class. As for anti-buff it should be removed or given to all classes because atm its adding to the monkocron culture by making apus the only class able to take down ppus.

[QuantumDelta]

http://smalltimerivalry.com/sschost/scriptquantumdelta/Subskills.jpg

Again, for snow; :p

Capped PPU Buffs only give 45% protection, PE buffs (Good PE buffs) Give 31% Protection.

Not really godlike :p

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta

Just an FYI as well, PE Buffs, typically....QDs...are almost as good as foreign cast PPU buffs, that's how weak PPU buffs are now.



Or how strong PE buffs are. :)

[Mr_Snow]

QD ppus dont only buff they keep heals on you too they also add haz and whatever skill you use even without shelter and deflector on you a ppu can keep you alive in most situations with just a heal.

The buffs make you hard its the heals that make you nearly invincible.

[Heavyporker]

This... just doesn't make much sense to me. The PSI manipulation skill, the putting it under DEX, the widening schism between APU/PPU team...

and besides, put into STR will sound a death knell - spies and apus everywhere will kneel over unconsicous.

[Shadow Dancer]

How about making it a con based skill?

[Artie]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
This... just doesn't make much sense to me. The PSI manipulation skill, the putting it under DEX, the widening schism between APU/PPU team...

and besides, put into STR will sound a death knell - spies and apus everywhere will kneel over unconsicous.

Dex would make it boost tanks, hurt APU's, and spies and PE's can accomodate..trust me. ^_^

Chips/Drugs could help the problem, as well as a Spy's PA that would give something like 200+ psi manip.

[Heavyporker]

errr... a little rough

You know what, guys? Put it under PSI!

Fuck, yes. Why ITS PSI! You even got the resist psi thing there!

Want to stop being debuffed, take a gander at that Resist PSI thingie! Want to stop Damage Boost giving you a rash? Stroke that Resist PSI! Wanna stop SoulClusters running up and down your trousers? Pick up a can of Resist PSI! Yah!

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
errr... a little rough

You know what, guys? Put it under PSI!

Fuck, yes. Why ITS PSI! You even got the resist psi thing there!

Want to stop being debuffed, take a gander at that Resist PSI thingie! Want to stop Damage Boost giving you a rash? Stroke that Resist PSI! Wanna stop SoulClusters running up and down your trousers? Pick up a can of Resist PSI! Yah!

Which no one can truly afford, except monks.


The benefits would have to be bigger.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Artie
Dex would make it boost tanks, hurt APU's, and spies and PE's can accomodate..trust me. ^_^

Chips/Drugs could help the problem, as well as a Spy's PA that would give something like 200+ psi manip.

If you want it to rape APUs then put it in STR.
APUs have more DEX freedom than PEs do.

You're a Low-Tech PE.
Of course you have points to spare...
It's like being a Low-Tech Rifle PE and saying "PEs are easy to use" o_O ....just....bad artie :p

And SD is right about the PSR.

Like I said.
The only real place this would go under, is Sixth Stat Theory....

[Heavyporker]

APUs NEED PPUs to survive any sort of battle. Its the same with any other class. You're not looking at everything, methinks.

Don't give me that high damage malarkey. We got decent damage for fraility. One on one? Oh, sure, maybe the pure fighters. But even pure fighter APUs can't do shit when twenty fragmentation rockets start streaking the skies red with fireballs or red and orange.

[Artie]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If you want it to rape APUs then put it in STR.
APUs have more DEX freedom than PEs do.

You're a Low-Tech PE.
Of course you have points to spare...
It's like being a Low-Tech Rifle PE and saying "PEs are easy to use" o_O ....just....bad artie :p

And SD is right about the PSR.

Like I said.
The only real place this would go under, is Sixth Stat Theory....

Hmm, the Serperflous "Sixth stat"....well, that's asking for too much from kk imho, but you're right, another stat would be nice. Also, i'm not talking about too much of a skill sink, just a little bit to cap it.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
APUs NEED PPUs to survive any sort of battle. Its the same with any other class. You're not looking at everything, methinks.

Don't give me that high damage malarkey. We got decent damage for fraility. One on one? Oh, sure, maybe the pure fighters. But even pure fighter APUs can't do shit when twenty fragmentation rockets start streaking the skies red with fireballs or red and orange. LMFAO Wait until Shadow Reads that LOL

Quoted so you can't edit it :D

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
APUs NEED PPUs to survive any sort of battle.



omg!



That's so not true. Grrrr, I can't even believe you're serious.

O_o O_o O_o O_o O_o O_o O_o



Originally posted by Heavyporker

Don't give me that high damage malarkey. We got decent damage for fraility. One on one? Oh, sure, maybe the pure fighters.

Actually apus have uber damage. Although fire and poison sux!

Pure fighters? Well porker you KNOWINGLY gimp yourself to hack and drive. You can't really expect to fight on the same level as a pure combat oriented apu.



Originally posted by Heavyporker
But even pure fighter APUs can't do shit when twenty fragmentation rockets start streaking the skies red with fireballs or red and orange.


What the hell does that mean?

O_O

The only problem with apus low defense is that they have no protection. What I mean is, they don't have stealth like a spy but have crappy resists like one. If an apu gets jumped, that's the end of him. I just wish we had vampiric spells or elemental barrier spells(block some damage but we can't do damage, or SOMETHING). I just wish we weren't so vulnerable on our own.


And NO we do NOT need ppus. Please don't ever say that heresay again.

[Heavyporker]

Shadow, did you even read what I said?

A battle. I said a battle. An APU's protection stems ONLY from PPU. That's it. I said APUs NEED PPUs IN BATTLE. What? You would happily take a GenTank into a battle with say 10 or 20 other ppl against you on the other side? Hell no.

I know APUs don't need PPUs to hunt or 1vs1. I do that all the fucking time. I even solo Ceres Mutants and Doom Harbingers.


You forget Force. APU Force suck in that there's no third level spell.

And please, tell me that Energy Beam or Halo would own out of measure against someone of the equivalent level. It's only Holy Lightning that might be a bit strong on its own.

APU damage is not *uber*. It's only *uber* on a shot per shot basis. Stand a GenTank by an APU and let them rip until they're dry. Let's see who does more damage over time.

[Artie]

1) please stay on topic.

2) Don't get personal

3) If you do feel the need to get personal, please report to your nearest Drom for some "manipulation" of your own kthxbye :D

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Shadow, did you even read what I said?

A battle. I said a battle. An APU's protection stems ONLY from PPU. That's it. I said APUs NEED PPUs IN BATTLE. What? You would happily take a GenTank into a battle with say 10 or 20 other ppl against you on the other side? Hell no.



oops


:p

You're right.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


You forget Force. APU Force suck in that there's no third level spell.


I kow. :(


Originally posted by Heavyporker

APU damage is not *uber*. It's only *uber* on a shot per shot basis. Stand a GenTank by an APU and let them rip until they're dry. Let's see who does more damage over time.

PvP it's UBER!

PvM it's "alright".


The gentank outdamages TEH apu overtime in PvM.

[QuantumDelta]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.
If there were ever a king of PvM outside the hybrid.
It's the PE.



Seems to be all we're good for outside of dueling and stealth abuse though o_O

[Heavyporker]

I doubt that PE could do better than a GenTank in PvM... equivalent, maybe, but not markedly better.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
I doubt that PE could do better than a GenTank in PvM... equivalent, maybe, but not markedly better.

...Erm....the difference from PvM to PvP, is that a Tank doesn't get that beautiful burst bonus, all damage numbers are run on basic damage.

....Which means Liberator is VERY Close to Cursed Soul Damage.

What's more, is PEs like mine, can take time to stand right infront of Grim Chasers and Damage Boost them while having to take fire from them in *PVP* Armor not hunting armor, and survive, and get time to fire off a lib burst or two then run off, heal, healing doesn't take long, come back fully buffed and proceed to take advantage of damage boost.

PvM is the one major advantage of being a PE...