View Full Version : Exploiting?
Shadow Dancer
03-11-03, 08:23
I just read the thread by Zoran where the GM explained why he kicked the players. I found myself agreeing with the GM for saying that the players were exploiting because the mobs couldn't hit them.
But this brings up 2 questions for me.
1.Is sniping an exploit? Was my spy exploiting when he was sniping grim chasers from 5 light years away?
2.What about monks who use third person LOS thingy to hit mobs without even being hit at all?
I'd have to say no for number 1, and yes for number 2.
While sniping, the mob can at least move toward you and try to get in range, but with the APU monk thing, if the mob has no chance at hitting you, then hell yeah it's an exploit.
I like Scikar's way of explaining it:
Originally posted by Scikar
If you hide behind a wall to take cover and heal, you're not exploiting, because you can't hit the mob, and the mob can't hit you. It becomes an exploit when you are standing such that you have a clear shot at the mob, yet there is no way for the mob to hit you. Simply sniping from out of the mobs range does not count, because the mob can move towards you. Attacking through the rails in NCPD does count however, because the NPCs can't use the lifts and they can't fly up to attack you.
If you're not sure if you're exploiting or not then have a look at the situation. Do you have a clear shot at the mob? Can the mob attack you? If the mob moves a little can it attack you? Is the mob moving around randomly? The last question is the key. The AI of the mobs isn't actually that bad, and they do try to get into a position to attack enemies. But when players are using glitches in the terrain, the mobs become confused, and they run around randomly, facing their target but not attacking.I think it explains it perfectly.
--Stryfe
juvestar15
03-11-03, 09:01
What if you stand on top of crycow hack room and shoot stuff?
Is it out fault the mob does not move backwards? What do we then do? Leave just because it can't shoot us?
A little stupid i think.
The PSI monk problem would be solved if spells were Line Of Sight.
Originally posted by juvestar15
The PSI monk problem would be solved if spells were Line Of Sight.
Spells are technically line of sight. 3rd Person lets an APU get around it.
Originally posted by Archeus
Spells are technically line of sight. 3rd Person lets an APU get around it.
I was under the impression that it was actually because some spells aren't line of sight. Lances etc, if you try to use them that way will just hit the terrain with no effect. But because halos and beams don't travel from you to the target (they come down from the sky/ceiling or just 'appear' on the mob) you can shoot them around corners, through walls, etc in 3rd person.
The problem is the LOS is not from the player to the target, its from the Camera to the target.
Make it player to target and i think it would be resolbed
he means line of sight like a lance...
In most cases with monks though, if they are fighting a moving target using 3rd person then the mob can usually move a little and hit you. You just have to keep moving to compensate. Going by Scikar's law, this isn't exploiting as if the mob moves a bit it can hit you. I kind of agree with him too.
ericdraven
03-11-03, 10:43
It is obviously intended from KK that some monk spells do NOT need LoS.
So if you hide in a way that the mob can't hit you it's just using this feature, you would be utterly stupid if you don't take the advantage of a spell which does not need LoS.
What would be the use of those spells then if you have to go directly in front of the mob to hit it just to "not exploit"?
Well if you can't get banned for doing the Monk > LE exploit or [ edited for violation of the forum rules - if you have evidence of this then report it properly ] then i'm not going to worry about killing a few mobs without them hitting me.
I think common sence is needed here. If you put yourself into a place where no mob's,npc's, turrets have absalutly no chance of dameging you at all. Then I would say it has to be an Exploit. On the other hand if your doing something to try an miminise the damage, such as hugging a tree an running around it wacking a WB. Or hugging a cliff line to keep out of the way of a Grims left arm, Or sniping. something can always spawn next to you an kick yur ass. Case in point . I was droning in j2 house. While I was wacking cyclops, a gunman spawned inside, an fried my ass.
Standing in a manner where mobs cant hit you at all and using
non-los spells to kill em is a exploit, its been stated several times
before. For example standing on the barrels behind a pipe in the
aggie cellar and using a energy halo.
*cough* sexyer than bunneh looky a whole thread about it
Originally posted by Rade
Standing in a manner where mobs cant hit you at all and using
non-los spells to kill em is a exploit, its been stated several times
before. For example standing on the barrels behind a pipe in the
aggie cellar and using a energy halo.
Is the standing "on the barrels behind a pipe" the exploit or the use of an energy halo? I'm confused.:confused:
If the use of an energy halo, or any other non-LOS weapon were an exploit, why haven't they been removed or made LOS?
As I understand it, if it was intentionally coded to be that way then it is not an exploit. Meaning if the developers decided that certain weapons should have this ability, then how can it be an exploit?
I personally don't think seeking cover to heal yourself or using terrain for cover while attacking a mob is an exploit unless there is just no way whatsoever for the mob to damage you.
Everyone will never be happy. Besides, if everyone was happy most of the people on these forums would have nothing to say.
ElfinLord
ericdraven
03-11-03, 16:33
If you use spells which do not need LoS you MUST step in front of the mob if you want to shoot at it, otherwise it's exploiting. ;)
And what about luring big game like Grim Chasers to a trap like the cage at F_13 where they can't shoot? Or using NPC's to kill mobs and loot 'em? And what about taking advantage of mobs' different design (e.g. crouching on a hill killing a WB while the mob's arm is too low)?
This exploit shouting is stupid IMO. :p
ericdraven
03-11-03, 16:38
Originally posted by japata
And what about luring big game like Grim Chasers to a trap like the cage at F_13 where they can't shoot? Or using NPC's to kill mobs and loot 'em? And what about taking advantage of mobs' different design (e.g. crouching on a hill killing a WB while the mob's arm is too low)?
This exploit shouting is stupid IMO. :p
Don't post exploits on the forum! :p
Originally posted by ericdraven
If you use spells which do not need LoS you MUST step in front of the mob if you want to shoot at it, otherwise it's exploiting. ;)
Then all spells should be LoS and call it a day.
If the game allows you to do it and it was developed with that purpose then it shouldn't be exploiting, unless I'm missing something.
Please help me understand.
ElfinLord
ericdraven
03-11-03, 16:48
Originally posted by ElfinLord
Please help me understand.
OK. This - ;) - is a smiley which shows that i didn't mean it serious. :p
And now serious. It seems some people can't get over the fact that monks don't need LoS to kill mobs and therefore call it "exploit", whereas i would call it "tactics".
Wanna know what exploiting is, exploiting is when an apu rare barrels the pepper park sewer entrance an LE user is about to go in. Then when the LE guy zones he all of a sudden has fire/poison/ no life left from the barrel.......
I have reported this exploit and nothing has been done, and now that I look at it I dont give a f**k because no one is going to get off their lazy asses and fix it.
Originally posted by ericdraven
OK. This - ;) - is a smiley which shows that i didn't mean it serious. :p
And now serious. It seems some people can't get over the fact that monks don't need LoS to kill mobs and therefore call it "exploit", whereas i would call it "tactics".
I had a feeling you felt that way. From reading a lot of your posts in the past I didn't think you would actually agree with the "exploit" crap, so I was confused.
BTW, I don't pay any attention to half the smilies I see in posts. I only use them to break the monotony of all the text in my own.:D
ElfinLord
BlackPrince
03-11-03, 16:55
Originally posted by wolfwood
Wanna know what exploiting is, exploiting is when an apu rare barrels the pepper park sewer entrance an LE user is about to go in. Then when the LE guy zones he all of a sudden has fire/poison/ no life left from the barrel.......
I have reported this exploit and nothing has been done, and now that I look at it I dont give a f**k because no one is going to get off their lazy asses and fix it.
Novel idea: Pull your LE out and kill him.
Originally posted by ericdraven
OK. This - ;) - is a smiley which shows that i didn't mean it serious. :p
And now serious. It seems some people can't get over the fact that monks don't need LoS to kill mobs and therefore call it "exploit", whereas i would call it "tactics".
Yea well, we're treading on the gray zone here.
Let's think up a fictionary situation about making use of programming bugs.
Our beloved tradeskiller Jack the UbarCST is standing in the plaza going like "WTF?!!1 Yo, tip meh or b3 ded" and the customer is like "n00b y00 already gave meh teh gun" and then Jack is like well screw this, I'm gonna enslave my friend Jill the UbarRES.
K, they go to plaza 3 and start building holy heals for GruntBag the UbarPPU - their strap-on monk. After about 500 heals with no slots Jack is like "wTf?11 Ah need m00r sluts.. slots" and Jill goes "h3y d00d, stand on y00r head, it gives +5 slots" and so the gullible Jack does it... not knowing that using a programming bug like this (the physical positioning of the legal non-virtual controlling unit affecting) will end up getting him banned though the exploit is not listed anywhere. On the first try Jack finally gets his artifact 5 slot holy heal... gives it to GruntBag and whizzes off to CRP to level. Of course GruntBag, being an overly excited 9-year-old mental patient, shows it to Snitch the Telltale&Friend-of-a-GM, a colleague PPU. Now Snitch get's mighty angry when he sees the "exploited" 5-slot-heal and tells one of HIS friends, Odi..Zeus The MegabanmasterGM thus making Jack unable to play NC for the next 1337 days.
After realizing this shocking event, Jack goes to a mental hospital from suffering immense withdrawal effects and ends up swinging at the end of a rope... from the roof fan.
Now... not making any sense, I return to the corner of my room to sulk about not being able to play NC this week. :(
Over and out. -Jap
ericdraven
03-11-03, 17:17
Yes japata, this would be an exploit, because getting 5 slots if you stand on your head was for sure not intended by KK. :p
(whereas a non LoS spell does its intended function, so why not use it that way?)
I'm surprised noone has mentioned Grenade Launchers yet, I reported an exploit back in March, that involved using nade launchers, nothing ever came of it....
It's the same type of thing that goes on in NCPD.....
juvestar15
03-11-03, 17:22
What about AOE cannons?
You lure the mob, hide behind a wall then shoot the ground next to him.
That exploiting?
I bet KK is thinking, "Dam that Shadow Dancer for bringing this up. Bastid prick KOS!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111". :p
Originally posted by ericdraven
(whereas a non LoS spell does its intended function, so why not use it that way?)
Because KK has said that standing in a manner where a mob cant
possibly hurt you and using non-LoS spells to kill them is an
exploit? That aint good enough reason for you?
Imo all beams and halos should be changed to lance type effects,
that way the exploiting would be removed and one of the biggest
beefs people have with monks would be removed as well. The
fact that a monk can hit you when you have already dodged
around a corner or whatever just because he saw you when he
started casting doesnt make any sense to me...
ericdraven
03-11-03, 17:28
Originally posted by juvestar15
What about AOE cannons?
You lure the mob, hide behind a wall then shoot the ground next to him.
That exploiting?
I bet KK is thinking, "Dam that Shadow Dancer for bringing this up. Bastid prick KOS!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111". :p
I guess KK should start to think which weapons they build into this game.. AoE cannons.... area of effect - the name says it all. Yes, the mob can't hit you while you are behind the wall, but AoE weapons do... ehm... area damage? And this area damage is obviously strong enough to go thru the wall and damage the mob.. exploiting? I again say - it's tactic. If KK doesn't want this - they should remove AoE weapons or don't "transfer" the damage thru walls.
Or even better - they should think BEFORE they put such weapons/possibilities ingame.
stalked monkey
03-11-03, 17:32
Hrmm. No LOS Spells? Probably explot. Just change the LOS from camera-mob to player-mob.
Rocket launchers shooting through walls? Hell no, thats not an exploit.
Sniping? DUH! THATS THE POINT OF SNIPING! Hell no, its not an exploit.
Shooting from behind cover? you have to be kidding me. Its called using your head. Not an exploit. (Notices they "fixed" the pipes in aggy cellars so you cant get behind them anyway)
Shooting something lower than you so it cant hit you? Generally not an exploit.
Ducking behind trees to avoid bullets? Why would this be an exploit? thats what trees are for!!
Getting in any sort of position where you can SEE the mob and you can HIT the mob but the AI is to stupid to hit you? Not an exploit. If you CANT see the mob (i.e. APU spells in mention) and its NOT an area effect (Barrels, launchers) then its an exploit.
Killing people with LE in? Exploit plain and simple.
Drugging to use equipment? If this is an exploit, i'm gonna burn.
Stacking poisons? Not an exploit per se, but more like a design oversight.
Using low-level buff/heal to nerf a PPU? Not an exploit, again a design oversight. If this is to be considered an exploit it needs to be changed by the code.
ericdraven
03-11-03, 17:32
Originally posted by Rade
Because KK has said that standing in a manner where a mob cant
possibly hurt you and using non-LoS spells to kill them is an
exploit? That aint good enough reason for you?
No, it's not.
What about a newb who doesn't know about this "rule". Did you EVER saw such rule anywhere INGAME? I doubt.. or is there a big sign flashing as soon as you use a non-LoS spell "step in front of your opponent before you shoot!!!!1". I doubt this either.
So either they shall remove those non-LoS spells or they should shutup declaring this as exploit.
Imo all beams and halos should be changed to lance type effects,
that way the exploiting would be removed and one of the biggest
beefs people have with monks would be removed as well. The
fact that a monk can hit you when you have already dodged
around a corner or whatever just because he saw you when he
started casting doesnt make any sense to me...
If you want "sense" behind this - a monk does not shoot with a weapon. His weapon is his MIND. Once he saw his opponent he gets a MENTAL lock on him, so it doesn't matter WHERE the opponent is once he is "mental locked".
how bout we say this is the same as newbie buffing ppu's and say its "smart tactics" at least then it would be consistant.
I have a perfect example of a type of exploit.
The green plants in the sewer can be attacked without fear of retalliation.
The orange ones fight back with poison.
Everyone does it, no one seems to care.
ericdraven
03-11-03, 17:39
Originally posted by SovKhan
how bout we say this is the same as newbie buffing ppu's and say its "smart tactics" at least then it would be consistant.
It is consistent.
Altho i am not sure if this was intended by KK. But obviously it was, otherwise it should have been fixed since months.
So, yes, it's smart (some call it lame) tactics.
its because they dont drop rares or mc5 parts. so who cares if someone exploits to kill a lowbie mob.
anyway with all this recent exploit stomping 70% of the population will prolly be banned. hahah
Dribble Joy
03-11-03, 17:40
Originally posted by japata
And what about taking advantage of mobs' different design (e.g. crouching on a hill killing a WB while the mob's arm is too low)?
The wb can still move to get into a position to fire. wbs do often move backwards if you are on a ridge to get a shot at you.
Ducking when the arm comes up to fire, I don'tthink this is an exploit.
eh i dont see hwo you can exploit while hunting if your useing the terrain to your advantage but hey it would just be like KK to make that an exploit
stalked monkey
03-11-03, 17:48
Ducking when the arm comes up to fire, I don'tthink this is an exploit.
No reason it should be. Basically, just think like real life. If someone goes up to you, pulls out a gun, and you duck behind the counter and he misses you... are you breaking the rules of physics?
The green plants in the sewer can be attacked without fear of retalliation.
Thats called a newb thinking with his head instead of with his weapon :) if KK didnt want it to happen why would they have the opening there. Seems reasonable you can stab stuff through it IRL.
Dribble Joy
03-11-03, 17:48
Exploiting using terrain can be an exploit, eg. luring a mob into a glitch/hole/dip in the landscape where it can't hit you OR move to do so, while you plug away at it.
ericdraven
03-11-03, 17:58
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Exploiting using terrain can be an exploit, eg. luring a mob into a glitch/hole/dip in the landscape where it can't hit you OR move to do so, while you plug away at it.
So if i see a Grim Chaser somewhere below me because i am on an hill at the moment.. i have to jump down?
Because if i stay on the hill he can't shoot me at all but i can shoot him. And this is valid for ALL weapons, not only non-LoS spells, i did it often enough with my spy.
Uh, oh.. i just admit in the public that i "exploit"... :p
Come on.. if THIS is an exploit i better quit the game and leave back all idiots who fight a Grim without cover (except they are Hybrids).. o_O
But to come back to my example... what if i see a Chaser somewhere in the open field... with no cover nearby.. i must step in front of it to kill it? What about shooting him once to lure him to an hill? Exploit? pff... i think then it doesn't matter what you do, everything is an exploit in a way..
Dribble Joy
03-11-03, 18:01
I mean getting it into a possition where it CANNOT move at all eg. in a small steep hole. I fyou are behind a hill and you can shoot it and it can't shoot you, fine, but it can still move foreward to shoot you or go around the terrain. Ie. you will have to move.
This is a very grey area I think we can all agree.
this exploit crap is just to stupid.
Originally posted by ericdraven
If you want "sense" behind this - a monk does not shoot with a weapon. His weapon is his MIND. Once he saw his opponent he gets a MENTAL lock on him, so it doesn't matter WHERE the opponent is once he is "mental locked".
Mental lock? Hello? All the psi powers project a very real
fire/poison/energy effect that hits the victim just like a normal
weapon lock. Beside the fact how the projectile was creating
there is nothing magical about it. Just because you are throwing
a fireball at someone doesnt mean that you know where he is
the second he steps around the corner, if it did monks would
have a radar.
ericdraven
03-11-03, 18:03
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
I mean getting it into a possition where it CANNOT move at all eg. in a small steep hole. I fyou are behind a hill and you can shoot it and it can't shoot you, fine, but it can still move foreward to shoot you or go around the terrain. Ie. you will have to move.
This is a very grey area I think we can all agree.
True.
Altho i never did it (too lazy to search for such holes :p) i still would call this "tactics" if you lure a mob into such pit.
Is it my problem that the AI is so pathetic to let the mob go down there? I doubt.
/EDIT: @Rade: i think we both agree that it's utterly stupid to discuss about "reality" in this game (in every game actually).
Hmmm.. ok, another explanation. The monk sees his opponent and get his mental lock on him. This means he is connected to the others mind all the time, he sees thru his eyes and where his opponent is heading to and knows exactly his position. Better now? :p :p
Ima shut up in this thread from now on - I just want to point out
that I despise the "I can do it so its legal" mentality. Like any
MMORPG this is a game full of bugs and unintended features. Like
any MMORPG some of these are considered exploits and its up to
the company that runs the game to stop players from taking
advantage from these exploits so that the game is more or
less "fair". I never came close to using a exploit because I use
*tada* common sense. If you dont have common sense there are
GMs there to put you in line. If you cant deal with that then you
will be banned because obviously you cant cope with some of the
aspects of MMORPGs. You can go play single player games or
whatever where you can cheat all you want and no one will care,
and we that want to play without exploits can continue doing so
without having to suffer some speedhacking, duping, exploit-
leveling idiot.
There really should be a STICKY thread that the GMs keep updated with definite EXPLOITS defined by THEM.
Shooting plants in the sewers IS NOT an exploit! why did they make the holes/gutters in the sewers for any other reason than to create a way of a new player using his head.
Shooting WBs over ridges IS NOT an exploit, because you very rarely just stand and don't move, sooner or later the Warbot gets too close and you have to adjust your position.
IMO if there is absolutely NO way of the mob being able to hit you then maybe that could be an exploit but the GMs do need to state exactly WHAT IS and WHAT IS NOT considered to be an exploit.
What about droners when they park themselves in a building so that the mob cant get to them? And I agree with the post about AOE tank weapons, luring a mob to a point where you can shoot a doombeamer at a wall and it hit the mob, I have no idea if it should or shouldnt be an exploit but its clever tactics IMO.
Sometimes I think if certain people got their way, we would all be playing in square empty rooms, all using the same weapons hunting the same mobs getting the same loot and may as well be clones O_o
ericdraven
03-11-03, 18:15
Originally posted by Ultima
There really should be a STICKY thread that the GMs keep updated with definite EXPLOITS defined by THEM.
The problem is - not all players are reading the forum.
Originally posted by ericdraven
The problem is - not all players are reading the forum.
Link to it from the launcher with a big red LIST OF KNOWN
EXPLOITS sign.
**edit: ARGH I wasnt gonna post in here again. Ok now ima
shutup for real.
Originally posted by Ultima
There really should be a STICKY thread that the GMs keep updated with definite EXPLOITS defined by THEM.
I don't think there should be a list of exploits defined by the GM's on the forums. It would, in effect, violate forum rules about the discussion of exploits, IMO.
What I would like to see is some clear definition from the GM's about what exactly is considered to be an exploit, not specific examples, in the context of this thread.
I know that taking advatage of bugs and such that aren't supposed to be in game is an exploit, but what about what we've been discussing in this thread?
I really want to know if using non-LoS weapons within their apparent design is exploiting or not.
An official word on this would alleviate a lot of this frustration.
ElfinLord
the grenade launchers are a typical example, they are designed so that they throw granades over objects, bounce off walls to get around corners etc. so if i stand in some ruins or a building where i cant be hit yet lob grenades over the walls at it i guess thats exploiting too o_O
juvestar15
03-11-03, 18:41
Player: Hey Grim im coming to get you.
Grim: RAWRRRR!!!!!!!!!!
*Player start shooting Grim*
Grim: Hey n00b i can't shoot you, move into my view please.
Player: Ok dude sure i will.
*Player moves in front of Grim*
*Player dies*
lets take the glass in MC5 as an example
dispite popular belief, the mob COULD get round the glass, the problem was not the glass itself but the stairs did not allow for good access for the mobs. they ran straight towards you, and got stuck in a hole.
AoE is not exploiting. its a tactic.
i say return the glass to MC5, but widen the stairs to remove the hole.
As for out-ranging mob being and exploit, wtf is that about? whats the point of KK adding sniper rifles/fusion rifles if they were going to say out ranging is an exploit.
even KK isnt THAT stupid.
On the priority list : Game Bugs/Poor Balancing > Exploting
They shouldnt be worrying about exploting anywhere near as much as the amount of whine and dissatifaction that is appearing lately, These are the major game issues, not one or two players taking advantage of the game (which is the games fault if you are to look at it fairly,especially when the game allows a mob to take advantage of you, it isnt nerfed (i.e. mobs are still geting stuck in walls and pwning people))
WTF... if your tactical enough not to get hit, thats exploiting ?
Omg was that new mob placed near the fence of MC5 because it was called 'exploiting' to climb the fence by running against the wall ? Plz tell me no.
Originally posted by Leebzie
On the priority list : Game Bugs/Poor Balancing > Exploting
They shouldnt be worrying about exploting anywhere near as much as the amount of whine and dissatifaction that is appearing lately, These are the major game issues, not one or two players taking advantage of the game (which is the games fault if you are to look at it fairly,especially when the game allows a mob to take advantage of you, it isnt nerfed (i.e. mobs are still geting stuck in walls and pwning people))
Omg was that new mob placed near the fence of MC5 because it was called 'exploiting' to climb the fence by running against the wall ? Plz tell me no.
Exactly.
Time and effort should be put in to improving the game, not following monks around to see if they are hitting chaos minions from behind a rock :rolleyes:
Thank god people can see that :)
Just went back through the thread and read about that warbot one, how can it possibly be an exploit to move out of the way of your opponents huge great gun ?
you can imagine a real life scenario... "Oh, what am i doing , ive ducked under this table during the bank robbery and now the bad robber cant shoot me" *promptly gets up, and attemps frantically to get in the firing line*
Its common sense to get out of the way of a weapon !!!
And the warbots totally exploit , they will stand there, and stand there, with thier arm raised. waiting for the microsecond you move into the firing line. They rotate :confused: on the spot,keeping perfect lock on you until you step a cm too far !!! How isnt that exploiting !!!
As before. Fix the game first !
Originally posted by Leebzie
Thank god people can see that :)
Just went back through the thread and read about that warbot one, how can it possibly be an exploit to move out of the way of your opponents huge great gun ?
you can imagine a real life scenario... "Oh, what am i doing , ive ducked under this table during the bank robbery and now the bad robber cant shoot me" *promptly gets up, and attemps frantically to get in the firing line*
Its common sense to get out of the way of a weapon !!!
And the warbots totally exploit , they will stand there, and stand there, with thier arm raised. waiting for the microsecond you move into the firing line. They rotate :confused: on the spot,keeping perfect lock on you until you step a cm too far !!! How isnt that exploiting !!!
As before. Fix the game first !
Or how about when the warbot is turned around, walking the other way and magically you lose HP and get frozen out of nowhere :D
some of you say "blah blah blah" is an exploit and should not be done.
But none of you have any real say in what is an exploit. You are players just like me.
Until a KK employee / GM posts a statement in the forums and stickies it. Like they did with turrets in the UG.
Until then I don't consider being in 3rd person shooting mobs using the terrain as an advantage to be an exploit.
If it is really a problem with the terrain they should do what they did with the glass in MC5 remove it. Then we can play on a nice flat open plain.
Didn't have the urge to read thru all posts but one thing.
Pe's can do without a ppu no problem they got pretty nice heals and sanctum and the got their own lill shelter and all.. Tanks have not enormous buffs but can atleast take some dmg before moving away to heal and they got psi heal.
Spies can manage most mobs with distance as their weapon and they to have a decent heal.
if it's an exploit for an apu to stand behind a cliff just out of for example a chaser to hit his extreeemly soft body.
Then playing with an apu alone then will be reaaaally annoying and time consuming. If this LOS thing annoys ppl then the apu gets even more dependant on a ppu and isnt that what most of you want? To remove the ppu from the game that is.
Sure there might be some places to lvl where the los thing of an apu might be concidered cheating or exploiting, but I think it goes hand in hand with the apu dying pretty often anyways. Most times an apu cant kill of a chaser from the same place without beeing hit or moving.
Oh and by the way if apu's are exploiters then tanks are just as much exploiters when it comes to aoe weapons.. it got splash dmg to be able to hurt alot of mobs or players with one shot.. and because of that a tank can aim his male/doombeamer at the ground near a cliff side and still so some dmg to a mob without him being hit.. Granade launchers the same you can probably throw a gren over a cliff and hit..
Theres no Exploits... just Tactics :D
well except for the plethora of ingame bugs, glitches, etc. that certain people can take advantage of (ie. the ASG bug that forsome reason KK still hasnt done anything about)
using terrain to your advantage is not a exploit, its stupid to say otherwise.
If im behind a tree so that a Grim cant cook me for dinner its not a exploit. When i play my apu i hide behind the trees to protect my self because the defense of a apu isnt the greatest.
I do have to expose myself to start a attack on the grim, but if i get hit i got right back to my hiding spot. Whats wrong with this? Nothing.
But if i could attack the grim from my hiding spot because of a bug in the game thats a exploit, pure and simple, but KK has to make everyone aware that thses actions can result in a ban, otherwise the person doing it wont realise what they have done.
Promethius
04-11-03, 00:08
Originally posted by ElfinLord
Is the standing "on the barrels behind a pipe" the exploit or the use of an energy halo? I'm confused.:confused:
If the use of an energy halo, or any other non-LOS weapon were an exploit, why haven't they been removed or made LOS?
As I understand it, if it was intentionally coded to be that way then it is not an exploit. Meaning if the developers decided that certain weapons should have this ability, then how can it be an exploit?
I personally don't think seeking cover to heal yourself or using terrain for cover while attacking a mob is an exploit unless there is just no way whatsoever for the mob to damage you.
Everyone will never be happy. Besides, if everyone was happy most of the people on these forums would have nothing to say.
ElfinLord
Well the way i see it is neither of them alone is exploiting but when u mix the together...u got urself a nice lil exploit.
About calling all these things 'exploits'...well i personaly don't understand that well either. If they say using a 'bug' in the terrain to use against mobs...why don't they jsut fix that bug? Also if theres an error int he game i don't think we should be punished for it but rather notified to not use it until its fixed.
Of course they can't fix all these 'exploits' with monks and 3rd person. Making all the spells LoS would practicaly ruin the monk class to a degree.
I would say either fix the 'exploit' or rename it to a 'perk of a class'
OK I'll explain a different way. If the mob tries to attack you, and hits a cliff or wall with its attack, then you're not exploiting (assuming you're not doing something serious like swinging the 3rd person camera 180 degrees around a wall and hitting a mob with a beam). So far all the exploits I've seen can be identified from the fact that the mobs do not even attack the player. A WB or Chaser will still attempt to hit the player if he's stood behind a tree or cliff, it will just hit the terrain. When the player is exploiting, the mobs tend to move randomly and do not attack at all.
I think Scikar may be closer to home, it is not the fact that a character is using a so called none line of sight weapon, not that they are using an area effect weapon. It is that the players are using the third person camera to establish a weapon lock that their character would otherwise be unable to achieve.
If I am wrong, and it is just that the characters are wildly firing psi spells from behind a wall then forgive this post as a misunderstanding.
Also, before a ban is put into place, don't the individual players, rather than the community as a whole need to recieve a warning?
If the warning was given, and the players continued to exploit, then the ban is justified. I think the problem with exploits is establishing whether or not there was mens rea - that's criminal intent to you and me.
Ransom
Hi,
while i'm tired and just want to sleep for 400 days i have to post a comment in this thread.
People are claiming alot of things are exploiting and some people are jumping on the band wagon and trying to stir things. All i wish to point out is this one single exploit that started things and clean a few rumors out from the dead grass around the place.
First off, in the NCPD it is possible to move to a point where it is physically impossible to be hit by any npc at any time, this is wrong. If a mob can move (even if the chance is, it wont) and attack you then it is NOT an exploit.
Being able to dodge like this is!
Second, using the terrian to your defend yourself is common sense, as the huge majority of the time a mob can come towards you and attack you, when your out of range and have that silent hunter aimed at some warbot brains, that is NOT an exploit, as it is possible for the mob to move to you and attack you, even if you out move it, it is still possible ANOTHER mob can jump you from behind.
Common sense is all that needs to be shown here, i know its an impossible task for some people :).
People exploit and race to cap characters as quick as they can as fast as they can then complain about lack of content! your missing out the majority of the game just to see the "end boss".
Please people, dont be silly, you all know what is and what is not exploiting.
Preshock
Good ro see something official, it was starting to get a bit silly ;)
I only posted here as i needed to clean up the ncpd thread rumors.
(and as i'm not a mod, and it was shut by a Reakktor offical, i can't add any final comments :P )
JackScratch
05-11-03, 00:06
There is another possibility I dont see mentioned here, shooting through walls woth AOE weapons. This is very much in the spirit of how the weapon should be used, while the 3rd person thing is not. and Snipeing, cmon, if thats not in the spirit of the game then I cant imagine what that spirit is.
Shadow Dancer
05-11-03, 00:42
Thanks Preshock.
Although I have to object to the line about us being silly. If we "knew" what is and isn't an exploit we wouldn't be having this discussion.
ericdraven
05-11-03, 01:21
So let's remove 3rd view then... ;)
(i would have no problem with that.. i am not so sure about others :D )
Shadow Dancer
05-11-03, 01:22
I would have a problem with it, but not much. Only because I like the view of the world that it gives me. But it won't bother me much for PvP because other people would be forced to use 1st as well.
Originally posted by ericdraven
So let's remove 3rd view then... ;)
(i would have no problem with that.. i am not so sure about others :D )
H-C Tanks would become extinct........
@ Shadow Dancer, sorry that I offended you, as it was I who used the phrase silly :D
Was just a feeling that I was getting from reading the thread (yes the whole of it). I don't make note of who post's what, so I am not refering to anyone in particular. Possibly just that a thread like this was needed.
Ransom
Shadow Dancer
05-11-03, 01:53
Originally posted by Ransom
@ Shadow Dancer, sorry that I offended you, as it was I who used the phrase silly :D
Was just a feeling that I was getting from reading the thread (yes the whole of it). I don't make note of who post's what, so I am not refering to anyone in particular. Possibly just that a thread like this was needed.
Ransom
O_O
I meant this post
Originally posted by Preshock
Please people, dont be silly, you all know what is and what is not exploiting.
Preshock
heh
Originally posted by JackScratch
There is another possibility I dont see mentioned here, shooting through walls woth AOE weapons. This is very much in the spirit of how the weapon should be used, while the 3rd person thing is not. and Snipeing, cmon, if thats not in the spirit of the game then I cant imagine what that spirit is. The only thing about AoE weapons, is that they make no distinction as to what gets through the wall and how.
For instance, a Moon Striker really shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage through solid (note the word solid, I'm not talking about those half-assed OP walls, here) walls, but a Doom Beamer most certainly should. Force and pierce damage should get stopped cold by a solid wall, while energy and xray should pretty much go straight through it. Fire's a bit trickier though. It should probably get through with about a 75% reduction in damage.
Of course, it's all a question of whether the NC engine can even *do* that and whether KK will even add it in if the engine's capable enough.
--Stryfe
Originally posted by StryfeX
The only thing about AoE weapons, is that they make no distinction as to what gets through the wall and how.
For instance, a Moon Striker really shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage through solid (note the word solid, I'm not talking about those half-assed OP walls, here) walls, but a Doom Beamer most certainly should. Force and pierce damage should get stopped cold by a solid wall, while energy and xray should pretty much go straight through it. Fire's a bit trickier though. It should probably get through with about a 75% reduction in damage.
Of course, it's all a question of whether the NC engine can even *do* that and whether KK will even add it in if the engine's capable enough.
--Stryfe
If it was easy to block damage from going through walls from AE
weapons you can bet your ass that we would already have it
ingame. However its a pretty tricky thing to code, AE already
hogs alot of cpu power in MMORPGs without having the wall block
damage thingie.
Actually I cant think of one mmorpg where ae damage is blocked
by a wall...
Promethius
05-11-03, 04:17
Originally posted by Spoon
H-C Tanks would become extinct........
lol are u nutz. When i played i ONLY ever used 1st person. I had no difficulties with it. Hell i tried 3rd person and i said screw it.
Though without 3rd person my monk would blow. Plus i find i get higher FPS in 3rd person.
Originally posted by Spoon
H-C Tanks would become extinct........
They are already... 8|
Chaplin, you mean melee tanks are exting already right? 'cause 95% of the tanks I see are H-C tanks, only seen couple of melee tanks myself. Got a pure melee tank (noobie one ^^) on uranus.
// Wannabe
how bout 3rd person view is allowed unless you draw a weapon and then it switches you to first person, that way can still have 3rd person for running around and such.
Originally posted by massic
how bout 3rd person view is allowed unless you draw a weapon and then it switches you to first person, that way can still have 3rd person for running around and such.
Good idea! I like it. Make it happen.:D
ElfinLord
Originally posted by Promethius
lol are u nutz. When i played i ONLY ever used 1st person. I had no difficulties with it. Hell i tried 3rd person and i said screw it.
Well, I maybe nuts, but that's beside the point....
Once I got used to 3rd person, there's no way I could go back to having half my screen filled up with a cannon....
Originally posted by massic
how bout 3rd person view is allowed unless you draw a weapon and then it switches you to first person, that way can still have 3rd person for running around and such.
Then you'll have to fix 1st person cannons or there will be a lot of unhappy tanks. The 3rd person exploits are very exaggerated anyway, every real exploit I've seen can be done just as easily if not moreso in 1st person.
Jesterthegreat
05-11-03, 17:40
Originally posted by Scikar
Then you'll have to fix 1st person cannons or there will be a lot of unhappy tanks.
i think thats what they are saying... if your a tank deal with it - you chose HC :p
tbh i dont care either way, 3rd person is my running view, 1st my PvP view (far better for Wyatt Earp in 1st person lol)
No I won't deal with it, why should I have to cope with a screen filled with the back of a gun which is on my shoulder? Whereas the Lib, which is aimed by being held out directly in front of the user, only takes up a fraction of the screen in the bottom right?
Originally posted by ElfinLord
Good idea! I like it. Make it happen.:D
ElfinLord
But 90% of ppl use 3rd person mode to fight in :eek:
Originally posted by Scikar
No I won't deal with it, why should I have to cope with a screen filled with the back of a gun which is on my shoulder? Whereas the Lib, which is aimed by being held out directly in front of the user, only takes up a fraction of the screen in the bottom right?
So true, me agrees :cool:
If you force tanks to fight in 1st person, you'd better remove the cannon that almost fills up half our screens, otherwise we stick with 3rd person. I use 1st person with my fusion cannons sure, but they arent as screen intrusive as the gatlin cannon I use more often.
ericdraven
05-11-03, 18:35
My suggestion to remove 3rd view was meant rather sarcastically, because it pisses me off when people automagically assume "3rd view = exploiting".
Clothing_Option
05-11-03, 20:03
Originally posted by StryfeX
I'd have to say no for number 1, and yes for number 2.
While sniping, the mob can at least move toward you and try to get in range, but with the APU monk thing, if the mob has no chance at hitting you, then hell yeah it's an exploit.
I like Scikar's way of explaining it:I think it explains it perfectly.
--Stryfe
This is typical of the UmustDIE ************s attitude. The POV that you have to stand right in front of the fucking mob and be killed or have a PPU up ur ass. God forbid APUs should be able hunt alone.
Problem 2 is the nostop bitch threads on this forum about problems that arent going to be fixed anyway, for example, that pure APUs cant heal themselves
Have a nice fucking day
Promethius
05-11-03, 20:04
Originally posted by ericdraven
My suggestion to remove 3rd view was meant rather sarcastically, because it pisses me off when people automagically assume "3rd view = exploiting".
well in OP fights and such there are lil tricks or exploits i guess that wat u would call it. That allow you to hide and attack people wihtout being hit urself. (I say this refering to monks)
Tho in my opinion i think its fine the way it is. And i hope this doesn't become a nerf the monk Thread.
[EDIT: Why did they take away the alt + W ? To hide cannons and such?]
Stryfe was referring to the 3rd person APUs swinging the camera around 180 degrees such that the camera was on the other side of a wall to the player, meaning the APU could hit (in the case of MC5) the commander from the other side of the glass. This is not the same as shooting from behind a wall. Also your point would have a little more weight if you didn't call him a ************. o_O
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