View Full Version : PSI Solution I Could Live With As APU
Maybe someone's suggested something similar before, I don't know, but here goes anyway:
How about a spell of fairly (note I say fairly) low TL (e.g. usable by spies/PE's) that lowers the APU/PPU level of the target.
Take the scenario of a LONE APU or PPU hunting a Grim Chaser etc:
APU's have to be very careful because they cannot buff themselves and die very easily. If careful they can win before they die because of the good damage they do.
PPU's need good defence for themselves because they do so little damage that they take ages to kill a high level mob.
If you nerf range/damage on an APU or defence of a PPU, your not just "balancing" PvP your greatly reducing their chances of hunting high level mobs solo.
However, in PvP the first thing you cast is this spell and it lasts for say 10-20 seconds. You've got more of a chance.
Note I suggest this if it was the only alternative to a nerf.
I think PPU's are the biggest problem. The reason most of the moaning is coming from tanks etc is because the APU/PPU team is more effective than tank/PPU, so you see more of them.
PPU was supposed to be a support character, but now people carry them in their quickbelt.
The problem is their are so many PPU's how do you fix it without ruining their game aswell.
Its all gone quiet.
I thought I would get flamed at least :p
it would have to be a hefty reduction for it to work and if you put it in the hands of Pe or spys the tanks still lose out on it.
id rather see a full on KK nerf on the monks:D
j/k just in case i become the one getting flamed;)
Resurrect the Hybrid...and balance him...
Originally posted by ezza
it would have to be a hefty reduction for it to work and if you put it in the hands of Pe or spys the tanks still lose out on it.
id rather see a full on KK nerf on the monks:D
j/k just in case i become the one getting flamed;)
Tanks might not have the benefit of it 1 on 1, but it allows people to get in more varied teams than just relying on a PPU.
Also, a varied team should be better than one of the same type, so if a couple of tanks go against a PPU and APU team I think they should lose. If a tank and PE go against a PPU and APU team, the tank can get some buffs from the PE and the PE can lower the PPU and APU's output, evening things up a lot.
1 on 1 between a high level tank and high level APU it seems to come down to who got the drop on the other person first anyway.
Originally posted by Sophie
Resurrect the Hybrid...and balance him...
Said that the other day, but the word still strikes fear in other classes ;)
Viduus[JBX]
31-10-03, 18:23
IMO this would not work for a couple of reasons:
Reducing the PSI level of a monk would make him unable to wear his powerarmor in most cases -- which reduces his level even more -- and possibly some of his imps -- again reducing level even more -- and then to top it off he already has the worst constitution in the game.... even an "anti-level" of 10 seconds would completely destroy a monk, rendering the entire class useless.
A different alternative though would be something like a "psi-blocker"... e.g. doubles casting times and halves range, and lasts about 10 seconds.
That means he's still got his levels and armor, but is effectively reduced much in the same way a parashock works, yet still has the chance to get out of dodge.... or take advantage of the situation if the opponent is closer to death before it's cast upon him.
And it would have to be viable on all classes that use PSI, not just monks.
ghandisfury
31-10-03, 18:28
Originally posted by Sophie
Resurrect the Hybrid...and balance him...
Balance is imposible......
Originally posted by Viduus[JBX]
IMO this would not work for a couple of reasons:
Reducing the PSI level of a monk would make him unable to wear his powerarmor in most cases -- which reduces his level even more -- and possibly some of his imps -- again reducing level even more -- and then to top it off he already has the worst constitution in the game.... even an "anti-level" of 10 seconds would completely destroy a monk, rendering the entire class useless.
A different alternative though would be something like a "psi-blocker"... e.g. doubles casting times and halves range, and lasts about 10 seconds.
That means he's still got his levels and armor, but is effectively reduced much in the same way a parashock works, yet still has the chance to get out of dodge.... or take advantage of the situation if the opponent is closer to death before it's cast upon him.
And it would have to be viable on all classes that use PSI, not just monks.
Agrees. Like that one too :)
Maybe not as extreme as half range and double cast time though. For an APU we wouldn't have a chance.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Balance is imposible......
Is that just refering to hybrids or balance in general?
Balancing hybrids should be no worse than balancing any other class (except for the fact its all under one skill so could be complicated maths for KK).
Every class has their offence and PSI defence at some level.
So does/would a hybrid. They're only a hybrid because its a mixed skill.
Viduus[JBX]
31-10-03, 18:34
@ Sync --
Hybrids make more sense to me.
As a matter of fact, IMO they should remove the APU/PPU penalties altogether, and instead make the damages constant by points in skills -- making the max possible damage attainable only with the max possible points in the combined PSI POWER skills.... which is to say: Psi-Core, Dimension Splitter, Experimental Psi Controller 3, and APU/PPU controller 3, 88 MST, 85 PPW, and "the rest" in APU to get max damage from any spell --> throw PSI USE subskill into the equation and you make it much less likely to be getting max damage from APUs OR PPUs with the exception of the completely maxxed, Combat-Dedicated monk.
And even then, he'd still only be doing what he already can do at this point in time.
The formula shouldn't be that hard to come up with either...
It's a weighted equation w/ reducing progressive effectiveness @ increased levels.
Yes, this would reduce the effectiveness of monks as they stand, since damage would be reduced -- most of us don't have that particular combo, and most of us aren't maxxed (INT takes forever!)... but I'd balance that by ****PUTTING DECENT RESISTS ON THE POWERCLOAKS*** (sorry, that issue sort of bugs me, hehe).
That would make hybrids viable -- they'd still be good in PvM, about even in an OP war ( wouldn't be able to attack & buff @ same time, you know?), and give them a half-arsed chance at surviving getting jumped out of nowhere by PK loving chars.
Viduus[JBX]
31-10-03, 18:38
Originally posted by SynC_187
Agrees. Like that one too :)
Maybe not as extreme as half range and double cast time though. For an APU we wouldn't have a chance.
Is that just refering to hybrids or balance in general?
Balancing hybrids should be no worse than balancing any other class (except for the fact its all under one skill so could be complicated maths for KK).
Every class has their offence and PSI defence at some level.
So does/would a hybrid. They're only a hybrid because its a mixed skill.
Yeah well, that was off the top of my head in response to the original idea....
KK could work out the numbers if they went with it. *doubts it* :)
Originally posted by Viduus[JBX]
@ Sync --
Hybrids make more sense to me.
As a matter of fact, IMO they should remove the APU/PPU penalties altogether, and instead make the damages constant by points in skills -- making the max possible damage attainable only with the max possible points in the combined PSI POWER skills.... which is to say: Psi-Core, Dimension Splitter, Experimental Psi Controller 3, and APU/PPU controller 3, 88 MST, 85 PPW, and "the rest" in APU to get max damage from any spell --> throw PSI USE subskill into the equation and you make it much less likely to be getting max damage from APUs OR PPUs with the exception of the completely maxxed, Combat-Dedicated monk.
And even then, he'd still only be doing what he already can do at this point in time.
The formula shouldn't be that hard to come up with either...
It's a weighted equation w/ reducing progressive effectiveness @ increased levels.
Yes, this would reduce the effectiveness of monks as they stand, since damage would be reduced -- most of us don't have that particular combo, and most of us aren't maxxed (INT takes forever!)... but I'd balance that by ****PUTTING DECENT RESISTS ON THE POWERCLOAKS*** (sorry, that issue sort of bugs me, hehe).
That would make hybrids viable -- they'd still be good in PvM, about even in an OP war ( wouldn't be able to attack & buff @ same time, you know?), and give them a half-arsed chance at surviving getting jumped out of nowhere by PK loving chars.
I posted similar before, but it turned into a flame fest... :(
Jesterthegreat
31-10-03, 18:41
*sigh* im gettin tired of this...
hybrid IS viable... just not stupidly over powered anymore
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
*sigh* im gettin tired of this...
hybrid IS viable... just not stupidly over powered anymore
pfhh viable my ass, you cant take on 10 people at once anymore:p
Viduus[JBX]
31-10-03, 18:45
heh
I watched a tank and a PE face off in TG yesterday -- their combat levels were 1 apart (53 & 54).
The fight lasted almost a minute. (the tank won)
Tell me... what fight involving an APU can last that long?
NOT ONE.
Either the monk bites it quick, or his opponent does.
15 seconds at best. And that's stretching it.
So yeah, if a "maxxed" hybrid were to exist, he'd be able to heal and buff at 1/2 effectiveness for his level, and do damage at 1/2 effectiveness for his level -- if he had decent powerarmor he'd be able to stand toe-to-toe with any class and last longer than a few seconds -- and have to take longer than a few seconds to take out his opponent as well.
The converse effect of course is if both sides of a fight were maxxed "dedicated" offensives -- supported by maxxed PPUs.
That fight would probably last forever..... :o
Which would bring us back to the "anti-psi" idea; it would be VERY effective in that scenario.
Jesterthegreat
31-10-03, 18:47
@ezza: if there wasnt a size limit on sigs... you would have made mine with that post ^.^
@Vid: you expect to last ages in a fight as an APU? it is well known they have poor defense!
thats like complaining cos as a melee tank you get shot from 500m away and cant hit back O_o
Viduus[JBX]
31-10-03, 18:58
No I'm not complaining about it... I understand how that works atm.
I'm suggesting an alternative that would *seem* to balance things more.
The APU would do more damage more quickly but would also take more damage more quickly.
The PPU would be, as it is now, tough to kill, but would be hard-pressed to do any offensive whatsoever.
The hybrid would become comperable to other combat classes.
A PPU/*any class team vs an APU/PPU team would also be well-matched.
*edit* Range is a different issue altogether...
Though I suppose it could be incorporated into the aforementioned scenario.
But then this whole discussion is moot; I've yet to see KK post anything regarding intentions on this subject.
as it is, hybrids arnt that viable in PvP for 1 reason
you can move whatsoever while casting spells in pvp
movement includes pushes from weapon hits.
only 2 things are needed now:
adjust the A/PPU nerf
sort out paraspamming
kthxbye
http://www.rarepartstrade.50megs.com/ppu.jpg
^^^
I expected that from you......
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