View Full Version : Resist PSI (Brainport Idea)
MODS: Please do not include or associate this topic with that god-awful sticky at the top regarding PPUs and Parashock. I want this to be treated as a poll to be moved to the Brainport in a weeks time or so. Cheers.
I propose a solution that I think is a fair compromise for this tired Parashock debate.
I would like to change Resist PSI as a subskill so that it limits the EFFECTS of parashock. Here's how I propose to do it:
- Subskill caps at 50 (Points after 50 have no effect)
- Subskill when capped reduces the effects of a capped HP spell from 80% (or Whatever?) by half to 40% and each of the lesser spells in the parashock vein by 0.5. Points leading up to 50 reduce the effects according to skill level: 45 Resist PSI reduces the effects by 0.45; 20 Resist PSI by 0.2.
- Capped Subskill limits the Duration of the Spell by 0.3. Again points under 50 do a proportion of that limit: 25 Resist PSI limits by 0.15.
- Points in APU actually decrease the need for Resist PSI (25 points in Resist PSI enough to CAP)
- Points in PPU actually increase the need for Resist PSI (75+ points required for Resist PSI to CAP)
- Points in Resist PSI prevent you from 'Stealthing'
- Points in Resist PSI has no effect on Heals and Shields and Buffs Cast on you!
So having said all that. These are the benefits of using this system as far as I can see:
1. APU given a slight gain in APU vs PPU with little points cost.
2. Tanks have the option of T/L 3 Heal and Level 1 Buffs or the benefits of the new Para-Resist.
3. PE can either Stealth and Heal or resist.
4. SPY same as above.
5. PPU... No nerfs and get to keep Parashock intact.
The main point of this idea was to give you the runner the choice of taking the sting out of HP if you so wish. I think this has major plus points for Tanks and APUs. I personally have a Tank as well as a PPU and I would gladly get rid of my healing abilities and the buffs for what they're worth in order to keep most of my mobility in a fight. APU doesn't have a healing ability ATM and I've tried to give them a better deal in my thoughts.
I put the bit about 'stealthing' in because HP is very usefull if you can hit someone before they stealth.
If there are any bad points to my idea i'm sure you're gonna tell me :)
Please vote, reply and rate my thread. Oh, and be nice ;)
[Edit - Forgot about the effect on heals cast on you ]
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 21:59
Not again -_-
I've lost the respect I had for you QD.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 22:40
Run a search for PSI Resist, see just how many of these topics have come up in the last month, there are at least three.
Every single time the illogical nature of the topic has been pointed out to those who have made it.
What you suggest would not bring balance, simply, because it requires sacrifice to gain something that should be there anyway.
So you wouldn't agree that my idea to improve a skill that is largely redundant whilst at the same time give more worth to Tanks and APUs in combat is not worth posting about?
FYI the only thing that will bring balance to PVP on this game is 1 class with no RPG elements and 7 weapons that you can only pick up at certain points.
Unfortunately you have been blinded by people who would prefer to turn this game into Team Deathmatch rather than take it on face value for what it is IMO.
I certainly wouldn't have the audacity to dismiss someone's thread in one sentence.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 23:00
If I have said, everything that needed to be said, in the other threads, I don't see why I have to repeat it every single time.
If you were to go and read the other threads you can have my oppinion, but if you are going to regurgitate ideas which have been mentioned repeatedly, and, are for the most part non-solutions to the problems, it will in the end, not be worth my time.
Or maybe I should just book mark every FBUT and just copy paste my answers.
That, however, would probably be even more insulting, wouldn't you agree?
So maybe you can stop being so ignorant, and go read up.
As for myself, you know nothing of how I play in game as far as I know.
You don't know how I spend/spent my time.
I am concerned about balance, because once I, or someone else, finally pronounces a truly balanced Neocron anyone that complains, can simply be told to shut the hell up.
This, thereafter, means that KK can focus on Content, non-combat content primarily, storyline, events, and material.
Even Callash is currently focused on "balancing issues."
So I think you would realise that I am working on issues as they arrive.
I'm not interested in other threads QD.
This is my idea that I put a lot of thought into and you haven't read any of it have you? Just a plain old dismissal from a respected member of the community. That is what I call ignorant.
As far as I'm aware I have taken no influence from anyone elses ideas and therefore I would regard it as stand alone, similar or not. I would like feedback based on my ideas alone. If you have nothing constructive or critical to say about what I have posted then don't reply to my thread.
If you don't want to give it a chance because you feel you are repeating yourself then that is your perogative.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 23:32
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
MODS: Please do not include or associate this topic with that god-awful sticky at the top regarding PPUs and Parashock. I want this to be treated as a poll to be moved to the Brainport in a weeks time or so. Cheers.
Fine.
It's a poll, it can't be merged anyway.
I propose a solution that I think is a fair compromise for this tired Parashock debate.
Grabs my, and most, peoples attention.
I would like to change Resist PSI as a subskill so that it limits the EFFECTS of parashock. Here's how I propose to do it:
Instantly at this point I think "Yeay....."
- Subskill caps at 50 (Points after 50 have no effect)
Keeping the cap for the skill as low as 50, is the most significant out of all the ideas, when the others suggested this, I was fairly quick to say the cap if it were implemented would have to be extremely low.
- Subskill when capped reduces the effects of a capped HP spell from 80% (or Whatever?) by half to 40% and each of the lesser spells in the parashock vein by 0.5. Points leading up to 50 reduce the effects according to skill level: 45 Resist PSI reduces the effects by 0.45; 20 Resist PSI by 0.2.
It's not enough.
[/quote] - Capped Subskill limits the Duration of the Spell by 0.3. Again points under 50 do a proportion of that limit: 25 Resist PSI limits by 0.15.[/quote]
Limits the spell to about 10 seconds "DoT" per cast at capped value.
Not bad, but again, not enough.
- Points in APU actually decrease the need for Resist PSI (25 points in Resist PSI enough to CAP)
Enough to cap PSR with what level of APU?
180? Sounds okay, but again, it's not just APUs that Parashock concerns.
- Points in PPU actually increase the need for Resist PSI (75+ points required for Resist PSI to CAP)
Great, so those who want to heal cannot even do that, if they want PSI Resist?
Or are we, again, talking 180 ish PPU = 75 PSR required?
Not enough detail for your well thought out idea.
- Points in Resist PSI prevent you from 'Stealthing'
Why?
This idea in itself automatically strikes PSR out for any classes other than APU/Tank.
- Points in Resist PSI has no effect on Heals and Shields and Buffs Cast on you!
As it should be.
So having said all that. These are the benefits of using this system as far as I can see:
1. APU given a slight gain in APU vs PPU with little points cost.
Great, the APU Monk gets even more of a bonus in a fight.
You don't realise that "Monkocron" is not just PPU, it's the combination of APU and PPU.
2. Tanks have the option of T/L 3 Heal and Level 1 Buffs or the benefits of the new Para-Resist.
Even as a Tank, I would have a hard time justifying dropping TL3 Heal, for ParaResist.
3. PE can either Stealth and Heal or resist.
PEs are 100% PSI Dependant for Defence, no PE in their right mind would even entertain this idea as an end game way to avoid Parashock.
4. SPY same as above.
This is even more of a point to the Spy, than the PE.
5. PPU... No nerfs and get to keep Parashock intact.
As a PPU, I can safely say I do not mind Parashock being removed, infact, as a PPU, Having Parashock removed would benefit myself in FOUR Previously hazardous Ways.
The main point of this idea was to give you the runner the choice of taking the sting out of HP if you so wish. I think this has major plus points for Tanks and APUs. I personally have a Tank as well as a PPU and I would gladly get rid of my healing abilities and the buffs for what they're worth in order to keep most of my mobility in a fight.
Yea, great, however, this issue only really benefits two specific classes, one of which already has some overpowered tendancies, the other, is pretty well balanced, while the APU sacrifices next to nothing to do this, the Tank sacrifices a great deal in terms of self-sufficiency.
APU doesn't have a healing ability ATM and I've tried to give them a better deal in my thoughts.
They have massive offencive potential, actually, somewhat over what they require in terms of massive offencive potential.
I put the bit about 'stealthing' in because HP is very usefull if you can hit someone before they stealth.
No, it's not, If you HP someone with Stealth one, they just Re-Stealth when they decloak, instantly, they do this and then acquire about 6 seconds of "unshocked" stealth time, because you cannot reshock them, since they were already shocked when you came to see them again.
If there are any bad points to my idea i'm sure you're gonna tell me :)
Please vote, reply and rate my thread. Oh, and be nice ;)
Sigh.
While it is a semi-decent suggestion, all it really looks like is an un-needed nerf on characters.
You say it is a way to deal with things, I would much prefer this subskill in INT, or STR, or even in CON, on all of my characters, including my Spy.
PSR would also, instantly become an excuse for Paraspammers, which does not make this idea okay, it makes this idea a cute scape goat which isn't fair on those who are subjected to Parashock.
Spies, nor PEs, would even REMOTELY Go for this idea.
Tanks - Depends on the Tank, my Tank most definately would not.
APUs - Depends on the APU, and the amount the APU has a PPU Partner, I would suspect that APUs would be the only character to see any even remote benefit, rather than nerf, from this.
PSR is not the answer to parashock.
I say this as a PE, I say this as a PPU, I say this as a Tank, and I say this as a APU.
Either;
The Drugs need to be changed to work as a preventative, rather than a reactive agent.
Or, The spell needs to be removed.
Period.
All of my characters and all of the playing styles within (from Rifle Spy/Pistol Spy/Pistol PE/Rifle PE/Droner Spy/HC Tank/Melee Tank/APU/PPU) are baned, by the mere existance, of a weapon that restricts the ability of a character to function.
Damage boost can be overcome by skill.
Holy Paralysis and Parashock Beam, cannot.
It's a bad ideas because spies and PEs will be shafted by it, simply. They either put themselves at a disadvantage to tanks and monks in op fights by not having any psi resist but keeping their heal/shields/buffs/stealth, which means they are OK solo but if they come up against a PPU they're screwed, or they go for psi resist but that makes them crap without someone else buffing them, which means they pretty much depend on PPU support.
It also means tanks lose points which they seriously need in PPU, as if tank heals weren't bad enough, they're expected to sacrifice what little they have.
There is no way you can use psi resist to counteract parashock without causing a hell of new problems along the way. It's not worth it.
hum....question, i'm doing a spy right now ..i'm psi lvl13 and I already capp my TL3 3slots heal..I've got 7 psi levels to go, so 35 points in psi left to gain. I will probably put them in ppw to have a bigger pool but it is not really needed.
Why should'nt I be able to put them all in psi resist and have 35 psi resist thus have a decent parashock protection ??
Or am i doing something wrong with my char ? because as far as I can, i've got a lot of psi points to waste or do non psi class prefer to have a unusefull fat psi pool ? :)
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 23:46
Configure yourself to be able to use destrosol forte for Shelter.
It's much more useful than PSI Resist would be in this scenario.
Especially considering PSR has been set to cut out stealth...
Interesting.
If I may I'd like to respond on a couple of the points you made.
Limits the spell to about 10 seconds "DoT" per cast at capped value.
Not bad, but again, not enough.
I would have said that was 10 seconds of reduced shock. I'm not sure if that was what you meant.
Enough to cap PSR with what level of APU?
180? Sounds okay, but again, it's not just APUs that Parashock concerns.
Great, so those who want to heal cannot even do that, if they want PSI Resist?
Or are we, again, talking 180 ish PPU = 75 PSR required?
Not enough detail for your well thought out idea.
I envisaged around 50 points in either APU/PPU is enough to envoke this. I'm not sure if the last part was sarcasm or guidance.
Why?
This idea in itself automatically strikes PSR out for any classes other than APU/Tank.
Actually it doesn't. It gives all classes the choice of whether they want to invest in the subskill or not. Whether it is detrimental to them they will have to decide. Lets not forget that it is currently redundant.
Great, the APU Monk gets even more of a bonus in a fight.
You don't realise that "Monkocron" is not just PPU, it's the combination of APU and PPU.
I agree with what your saying and I have realised this myself. But you neglect to mention that an APU on his/her own is virtually defenceless. I considered this also. It doesn't actually give an APU any advantage over any other class in a 1v1 fight.
Even as a Tank, I would have a hard time justifying dropping TL3 Heal, for ParaResist.
In PVP your T/L 3 heal is useless unless you're gonna be naughty with it. APUs don't have the ability to Heal and they get on fine with it, so a Tank with an good resist setup shouldn't have too much grievance. Again its about choice. Keep the Heal if you want it.
PEs are 100% PSI Dependant for Defence, no PE in their right mind would even entertain this idea as an end game way to avoid Parashock.
With the second best Personal Defence I didn't think PE's needed too much help in this department. Don't forget that this also applies to PPUs.
This is even more of a point to the Spy, than the PE.
Again T/L 3 Heals are useless for Spies in PVP. I think Spies need a helping hand in a lot of departments as it stands anyway. Once again its all about the choice.
No, it's not, If you HP someone with Stealth one, they just Re-Stealth when they decloak, instantly, they do this and then acquire about 6 seconds of "unshocked" stealth time, because you cannot reshock them, since they were already shocked when you came to see them again.
I didn't want to spell it out, but here goes: If you manage to hit someone before they cloak with HP they illuminate with a nice shocked glow indicating their position and the fact that they aren't going nowhere. Then they are easily taken out with AOE. Depends on circumstances, sure but its a defence at least.
PSR would also, instantly become an excuse for Paraspammers
If Para stacked then yes I could see a point there. I do however concede that those not choosing to go the PSR route will get the same treatment, service as usual if you will.
I pretty much agree with the rest of the stuff you said.
I don't however see Drugs as a possible solution/compromise. Its basically saying you HAVE to take the drugs to PVP and not giving you the choice.
Thankyou for respectfully replying to my idea.
QD. I have read your posts and I believe even you said that you think of yourself to be the best person to balance the game as you are of high rank and consider yourself a good player.
Sorry, but if people are not capable of these things in this current game, they should not be allowed to adjust the game, because if they do, people like me will always come along and go "...oh 'ey up they left this wide open for uberisation."
Unfortunatly this game has v.good players, good players, medium players and n00bs. When KK strike a balance in neocron it should address all these different classes but most importantly it should address the MAJORITY of players. I don't believe capped players are a majority in this game hence I don't believe you are the best person to balance it.
It also seems as soon as anyone suggests anything to do with PE's (nerfage) that you object even though their point maybe valid
Give my PE a weapon with the same power aiming and accuracy and rof of CS that I can run around with without runspeed nerf and you can have your nerf lifted
How about you give a tank a viable tradeskill apart from repairing without nerfing their combat setup too much ??? The same can also be said of an APU.
Yes tanks were maybe too stong during beta and at the beginning of retail, but I don't believe they deserved such a big nerf. Tanks were also the only class KK had developed PA for and I can see why also. I don't know what changed KK's mind on that score either :rolleyes:
For true class vs class balance the whole picture needs to be looked at, and not just the pvp aspect of it. If the classes were balanced 100% for PvP then there would be no use in ever being a tank...I mean why be a tank when you can PvP just aswell as another class AND do other shit aswell.
What ]v[ortice has suggested is make use of a redundent sub skill and make it usefull again. I may not agree 100% with the mechanics suggested, but it's a step in the right direction.
I don't want to see anything nerfed as I don't believe there is THAT much of an imbalance to warrant it. Remember, when KK nerf something they NERF it more than most people had invisioned.
Unfortunatly I have seen far too many good posts that seem to go unoticed by KK. Maybe we can get an official post about what KK are or are not planning for the PPU???
If they nerf the PPU I know a few people that will leave.
If they don't nerf the PPU, some people on this board have threatened to leave.
I wouldn't like to be the person who makes a desicion on this issue :D
BTW I voted yes as I think this is the best road for KK to take to tackle the PPU problem.
QuantumDelta
31-10-03, 02:38
Originally posted by BiTeMe
QD. I have read your posts and I believe even you said that you think of yourself to be the best person to balance the game as you are of high rank and consider yourself a good player.
Even myself alone couldn't truly balance the classes unless I litterally commited myself to such an undertaking over the course of a ..week? two weeks?
Not truly, not as perfectly delicately balanced as I'd like them to be...
It's also to have other people to throw ideas at and have ideas thrown at me.
I have had my own ideas shot down, it's a part of the program, when they are, you take'em back, work on them, or scrap'em if you can see the flaws.
Unfortunatly this game has v.good players, good players, medium players and n00bs. When KK strike a balance in neocron it should address all these different classes but most importantly it should address the MAJORITY of players. I don't believe capped players are a majority in this game hence I don't believe you are the best person to balance it.
Again, because of the way neocron works, the *only* way to balance end game is to balance it purely on end game, they cannot really seperate the mid game.
"Capped Players" are the minority?
....Dude, it takes less than a week to cap a character (STR Tank/PSI Monk/PE Complete/Spy DEX) If you're willing to commit to it.
If the game is balanced based on anything other than total end game, then total end game will be manipulatable for one class, or another.
Period.
It's pretty much nessicary to ignore the levels before.
If you think I am biased towards the PE, you should probably be made aware that the PE is the only character in the game that can't PvP effectively compared to other classes of their own level until they're up to DEX 78 ish Base.
It also seems as soon as anyone suggests anything to do with PE's (nerfage) that you object even though their point maybe valid
This is because, unless you are going to run a comparison against a Spy (even then in certain situations spies can be comparable to PEs).
For a PE to Compare to a Tank, they must be completely and exactly balanced, if you were to talk to the skilled tanks, who are constantly considering class balance, you would find that most Tanks believe they are, either (maximum wise) BETTER than PEs, *Or* they are VERY slightly lesser.
This very slightly less comes, primarily from the PEs ability to gain "better than expected" abilities through drugging.
A PE, is more or less, your master of suprise.
They're effectively useless in combat if they don't get time to buff.
And, to beat the very best Tanks, most PE require drugs.
How about you give a tank a viable tradeskill apart from repairing without nerfing their combat setup too much ??? The same can also be said of an APU.
As I have said numerous times, I believe Trade skill should = combat nerf, for every class.
The problem with the Pistol PE, currently, is the Intelligence it requires to "cap" things isn't particularly taxing for a base 60 INT Character.
Which means that my PE has 1xx WEP and 78 PSU, and after that, the points go into IMP or HCK because, basically, no matter How Many Points I add to WEP or PSU I don't get any significant (or any at all) bonus for it, as a Pistoler, Spies also get this, but they use it primarily to trade skill.
Yes tanks were maybe too stong during beta and at the beginning of retail, but I don't believe they deserved such a big nerf.
Tanks have not been nerfed, at all, they are still as strong as they were back then.
Tanks were also the only class KK had developed PA for and I can see why also. I don't know what changed KK's mind on that score either :rolleyes:
Honestly, I don't know either.
I didn't particularly want to wear PE PA, but since the negatives are not incredibly significant to me (they can be overcome by either drugging, or by taking the armor off then buffing and fighting) if I want to maintain my position I have to use it.
Same goes for my PPU.
For true class vs class balance the whole picture needs to be looked at, and not just the pvp aspect of it.
Are you paraphrasing me or what?
If the classes were balanced 100% for PvP then there would be no use in ever being a tank...I mean why be a tank when you can PvP just aswell as another class AND do other shit aswell.
Again, you are not listening to my comments, or are half ignorant thereof.
What ]v[ortice has suggested is make use of a redundent sub skill and make it usefull again. I may not agree 100% with the mechanics suggested, but it's a step in the right direction.
PSR is not the answer, this has already been commented upon by several of the veteran members of this community on several occasions, there is no permutation of the skill that will actually "Boost" anything, except the APU, every, single, other class, will choose to have to deal with parashock as it currently stands, or choose to nerf their PSI Capabilities.
I don't want to see anything nerfed as I don't believe there is THAT much of an imbalance to warrant it.
Parashock (and I say this as a PPU) is grossly unfair.
Remember, when KK nerf something they NERF it more than most people had invisioned.
Good.
In this case, this is, as it should be, the damn spell, just like the damn weapons should never have existed in the first place, psychologically it is the worst thing you can do to a person, IRL or Ingame.
Unfortunatly I have seen far too many good posts that seem to go unoticed by KK. Maybe we can get an official post about what KK are or are not planning for the PPU???
]v[ortice him(her?)self, asked MJS about this, he said there were no plans.
I will continue to campaign for it to happen, even if it's parashock only.
If they nerf the PPU I know a few people that will leave.
If they don't nerf the PPU, some people on this board have threatened to leave.
It's one single spell, and oddly enough the suggestion of making S/D Self Cast Appealed to me more as an PPU than it did as any other class.... know why?
I'm tired of every 2 minutes hearing "NEED SHELTER WTF ARE YOU DOING BITCH GET OVER HERE NOW" heh.
Instead, I would be able to spend my time concentrating on healing, on anti-db, and db, and anti-poison
I wouldn't like to be the person who makes a desicion on this issue :D
Indeed.
Which is why I try to sell my ideas to the community, before I try to sell them to KK.
This is a forum, a place where such ideas are debated until a real workable, agreeable solution is found.
BTW I voted yes as I think this is the best road for KK to take to tackle the PPU problem.
That is, of course your personal choice, you ARE free to make it, however I do urge you to look at the fact that this is severely lacking...
sorry QD... haven't read the whole thread yet, but:
Dude, it takes less than a week to cap a character (STR Tank/PSI Monk/PE Complete/Spy DEX) If you're willing to commit to it.
is simply not true for the people we want. And we want NEW people!. Anyone who has played NC for a while know how this stuff works.
But n00bs don't. I like these new players. I help them. Tradeskill for them for free. Give them (lots) of money even. Just to keep them in Neocron!!!
QD, I have to admit. Most of the times I totally agree with you. But there's one major issue: although a game should not be commercially - without commerce, it dies. What I mean is: take new (n00b) players more into account, and I'll say *amen* to your every post.. :D
To sum up: NEVER balance any MMORPG in favor of the "capped" players. NEVER assume they are the majority (but dont neglect them).
Final: more players = more money = better game (ok, in a perfect world - but NC is as perfect as it gets :D)
Now continue with this topic on topic please.... ;)
QuantumDelta
31-10-03, 03:15
Ask around on uranus about me and noobs...
You'll find I typically help them as much as possible... that doesn't mean I think balance should be based on their abilities, they should grow into abilities based on balance...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Ask around on uranus about me and noobs...
You'll find I typically help them as much as possible... that doesn't mean I think balance should be based on their abilities, they should grow into abilities based on balance...
True. Very true.
But take this into consideration a bit more then when posting.... Not only ingame...
(Stopping this discussion now coz i dont want it to be that - a discussion. It's not that important. Just had to let my heart speak. Next post it'll be you, QD, doing it for me.... )
QD
You're now losing me.
What do you envisage a PPU to be if not to shield others?
Personally I get a kick outta using my passive spells to help other runners. PVP/PVM. I've commented before about PPUs being a very rewarding class.
I still maintain that if you take Para away from PPUs you will hurt the sub-class too much.
My idea as far as i'm aware hurts no-one.
Instead it gives you another option.
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I remember when this game was freeform. No-one knew ub3r l33t setups and everyone within reason had an individual setup. Thesedays you are berated for being non-conformal and classed as gimped if your setup is not a couple of points close to someone elses who wins a lot at PvP.
And PVP? That is the biggest joke. OP battles? One big Mish Mash in the middle. No wonder the monks win. Your framerates are in single figures so you can't target, you can't tell ur mates from anyone elses and the monks only have to keep on clicking :(
Surely you can see that is why this game fails. Not one single damn spell.
I wouldn't mind if they completely removed parashock and replaced it with a low damage spell so PPU's could at least continue to kill roaches. At least it would get rid of the "OMG N3RF Paraspam..OMG!!" threads, but then I suppose the whiners would move onto something else instead.
Being a PPU has one big disadvantage. You can't go hunting on your own! You always need to have at least one person with you, and leaching XP is extremely slow. The parashock does come in here so a PPU can defend himself when alone.
....Dude, it takes less than a week to cap a character (STR Tank/PSI Monk/PE Complete/Spy DEX) If you're willing to commit to it.
What you forget is some people only play for an hour or so per day, and capping a char is also a boring process. I would say the people who are able to cap a char in a week because of the time involved and the methods are in a minority.
quote:
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Tanks were also the only class KK had developed PA for and I can see why also. I don't know what changed KK's mind on that score either
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Honestly, I don't know either.
I didn't particularly want to wear PE PA, but since the negatives are not incredibly significant to me (they can be overcome by either drugging, or by taking the armor off then buffing and fighting) if I want to maintain my position I have to use it.
It was all the people thinking that only having one class in the game with PA available to them was unfair. TBH I would have liked KK to turn around and say "STFU..You want PA make a tank"
One of the great U turns in history. :wtf:
quote:
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Yes tanks were maybe too stong during beta and at the beginning of retail, but I don't believe they deserved such a big nerf.
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Tanks have not been nerfed, at all, they are still as strong as they were back then.
I remember before the tank runspeed nerf where you could run with any gun out and not take a speed hit.
They nerfed it once so it was linked to the TL of the gun. I quit not long after that (not because of that btw :) ) and recently decided to come back. What a suprise..tank run speed nerf again so now it's not even based on TL... The way I see things that 2 nerfs for the tank.
QuantumDelta
31-10-03, 11:42
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
QD
You're now losing me.
What do you envisage a PPU to be if not to shield others?
Personally I get a kick outta using my passive spells to help other runners. PVP/PVM. I've commented before about PPUs being a very rewarding class.
I still maintain that if you take Para away from PPUs you will hurt the sub-class too much.
My idea as far as i'm aware hurts no-one.
Instead it gives you another option.
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I remember when this game was freeform. No-one knew ub3r l33t setups and everyone within reason had an individual setup. Thesedays you are berated for being non-conformal and classed as gimped if your setup is not a couple of points close to someone elses who wins a lot at PvP.
And PVP? That is the biggest joke. OP battles? One big Mish Mash in the middle. No wonder the monks win. Your framerates are in single figures so you can't target, you can't tell ur mates from anyone elses and the monks only have to keep on clicking :(
Surely you can see that is why this game fails. Not one single damn spell.
Heh, how many op wars have you fought in?
The whole Shelter/Deflector thing can quickly become overwhelming.
I don't, as a PPU see a problem with the removal of Parashock, again, mainly for the psychological effects behind the spell.
Anyway, the reason I supported the idea of self-cast s/d is because it, for the first time, makes op war battle fields, defencively vs offencively equal places to be.
PEs who were the weakest op war character instantly become what they are in duelin, so long as they watch themselves in keep in some form of formation.
Tanks keep their natural CON and gain a huge amount of ground on the APU.
APU Keep their commanding damage level, and infact can capitalise on this somewhat more than before.
Spies can still drug for shelter.
PPUs, are much less taxed for S/D, they just have to heal, rezz, boost, damage boost, and act as a recovery station.
I wouldn't actually be that concerned with losing parashock if I were you ]v[ortice, I'd be more concerned with the sickening range on the rare sanctums.
True Sight.
AntiPoison
And Holy Catharsis Sanctum all have a range of 6m.
HCS shouldn't be THAT low, although it does make sure the curative effects of the spell aren't available to your enemy.
True Sight... an anti-stealth sanctum...with a range of 6m.... How many PEs and Spies do you know that use Stealth to sex someone in the ass?
True sight should have a huge range.
Ya know what? *MAYBE* Holy Shelter Sanctum and Holy Deflector Sanctum should work on other people, that way they're protected when the PPU is working on them, this makes the PPU a kind of safe haven on the battle field, which is more or less how you want it to be.
People would group around the PPU to regenerate.
However, without direct/group Shelter/Deflector, and parashock, there is a LOT, the PPU still has to do on the battle field.
Yet for the first time I think that "LOT" wouldn't be enough to make a lone PPU trying to cover 5 or more PvPing grasshoppers want to explode from the pressure.
Biteme - if someone is playing Neocron for the sum total of 1 hour a day, even when they are capped, I would seriously seriously doubt they would compare to the people I'm talking about balancing the game on.
Ever.
As has been said before, that's their problem. If they wanna casually game, they shouldn't really give a shit about being the best o_O It's paradoxical...
Biteme - if someone is playing Neocron for the sum total of 1 hour a day, even when they are capped, I would seriously seriously doubt they would compare to the people I'm talking about balancing the game on.
What I am trying to say is the majority of players can not cap a player in a week. Therefore the people who are able to cap cap their charactor in a week are a small percentage of the total number of people who play Neocron. The game has to appeal to the masses more than the few who powerlevel just so they can be 1337 in PvP.
If you can't balance the game for all levels and players then you need to balance the game for the majority of people who play, even if this does create an imbalance for the power gamers.
With the high turn around of people who play NC ( new players who quit, old players comming back etc...) there will never be a player base of capped charactors that represent the majority of players in NC.
QuantumDelta
31-10-03, 12:17
I don't know what server you play on, but Uranus is primarily capped chars.
Pluto is primarily capped chars.
Jupiter is primarily capped chars.
That leaves saturn and venus.
one week estimates are based on five hours a day some what casual leveling, for me.
I play Uranus also. I don't see that many capped chars about. I see a complete range of people and there are quite a few high level chars, but I personaly don't know of too many people that are completely capped on all stats.
Yea its like being human....In a way....hard to say how but if we didnt have children, we wouldnt have a future. No newbs? No neocron future...:p
QuantumDelta
31-10-03, 12:39
My point...I'll say again, is that no one pvps at 10/15 ///
If they do it's just a mess around and doesn't really matter...
If you were to attempt to scale the balance all the way through the game, it would be close to impossible to end game balance.
Which means you would get the current PPUs, or Hybrids, or APUs, or Pistol PEs, who "are on the top" because of a few tricks and skills.
Pistol PE doesn't really have a reason to be overpowered everyone just kinda ...gravitated towards it, probably because of characters like Fang.
The sad part is People Like Fang, and Myself, and others, can near-to-exploit the system simply with configurations and personal skill so that most things go in our favour.
It's an art form, PvP, when I duel, I reach out onto the other character and put a small amount of control on them, they follow my movements, I command them, and by following my movements, they become predictable to me.
That's what should win fights, not just setups...
Prodigious
31-10-03, 13:01
i voted for yes but....
the reason being, because maybe a subskill which affects what HP does to you would be good it is not in PSI that it should be, I as a PE would never ever give up my deflectors and shelters,
and after re-reading the thread, i once again have to vote for QD because he is practically spot on with what he has said,, i also lked the fact, that not only do anyone with PPU have to free up some points to put in PSI resist but also that the amount of PSI resist we need will go up if we keep even enough PPU to heal, apparently.
Therefore any PE that does this, is gonna rely on PPU's for buffing, therefore makin PPU's even more relied on throughout the game.
i dont want to be nasty about this but here it goes
good thinking but i feel it wont work, sorry
Load_HeavyLoad
06-04-04, 10:28
QD haven't you canceled your account, or are you keeping it alive so u can bug people on the forums?
Original monk
06-04-04, 10:31
QD haven't you canceled your account, or are you keeping it alive so u can bug people on the forums?
the date is 31-10-2003 so i think its an old thread :)
if ya want QD you can find em at the forum of that certain mmorpg that we cant talk about that starts with an f and ends with a k
Just take away PSR... it sucks not even today a APU can get near to 60 - 70% to cap their mana pool O_o
The PPU can still have 0 PSR and overrule the Para forgot the antipara?
That idea would just benefit capped tanks and apus in OP wars making PEs and spies even more redundant and only having the role as hackers in op wars and every class should have a fighting role in opwars.
Even though I play a ppu and tank mostly these days I want monkocron and tankocron gone parashock removed and goddamit i want to test out if self-cast s/d would balance OP wars or not.
Guys this thread is yonks old.
We were talking about this like months ago.
Mods pls close thread and let it die a death :)
dont like it
bah
who is fucked with that idea ? jea right, monkeys
monkeys need every f0ckn point at psi. we need to skill
ppu/apu, mst and ppw and a fourth skill ? na thanks
It's an art form, PvP, when I duel, I reach out onto the other character and put a small amount of control on them, they follow my movements, I command them, and by following my movements, they become predictable to me.
Best nelson voice 'ha ha'
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On topic, I dont like the idea because its a limited use of a Stat that every class other that Psi-Monk has very few points in.
I'm all for a practical use of the Psi Resist subskill but I dont think this is it.
Close this Thread please O_o
I dont like the idea, sure resist psi needs a purpose, but not what you propose.
why change it. You do need resists agains psi attack 2 and 2 :P
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