View Full Version : Remove Runspeed NERF from heavy weapon tanks
I don't mean the runbuff taken away by powerarmor that is okay,
i mean when you frigin equip a heavy weapon you move so god damn slow.
Runspeed is like the only thing tanks have.
Heavy Weapon Tanks got no:
capped heal spell
capped deflect
no shelter
no stealthing
not enough points for hacking
not the best damage in the game (apus have that)
not the best TANK in the game (pes tank better even, and ppus ARE the best at tanking)
so what do we got a lame as runpspeed when we have weapon equiped (cursed soul is best) but you have to be point blank almost to fire full auto and still be able to hit most the shots.
so in a fight, this happens to me alot (i dont have a cursed soul though i sux ;/ i need 1 more part for one)
i see someone i wanna kill...
1) i go right up close to them & equip weapon
2) i take a burst
3) they run
4) i disequip weapon to chase after
5) i equip gun (runspeed GIMPED then) they are still running in the meantime i aim and shoot by this time they are out of the decent range to get good shots in so 2 or 3 hits maybe...
6) they will keep running to a safe distance to run cast heal and take pot shots at me (no point me trying to use my crap heal in a fight, so i take medkits)
7)i can continue doing this, but for f's sake anyone who knows that tanks are gimped runspeed will just keep running and they know we cant touch em, but i get bored of this cat and mouse game and my medpacks are running low so i decide f this i suck and then i disequip weapon and run away.
thats it, that really happens i cant even kill shit thanks KK u sux
Everybody else -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Tanks
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 08:32
No, I think it's fine the way it is.
Shadow Dancer arn't you a monk?
IMO nerf Holy Lightning and PE buffs instead. Tanks are fine just PE's get too much defence and MONKS are just fucking way overpowered (again)
no just give runspeed back with gun equiped,
and nerf ppus
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 08:39
Originally posted by Benjie
Shadow Dancer arn't you a monk?
IMO nerf Holy Lightning and PE buffs instead. Tanks are fine just PE's get too much defence and MONKS are just fucking way overpowered (again)
Holy lightning isn't THAT overpowered. People just like to jump on the bandwagon.
and there you go problem solved
balance returns :D
with power armor on, runspeed reduction rate should be halved when a gun is out.
Runspeed goes down with power armor, run speed goes down more with equipped weapon.
But with power armor, run speed goes down, run speed decrease rate should be cut by half at least when weapon taken out with power armor. THATS how it should be, wont be much of a speed increase but still.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
People just like to jump on the bandwagon.
........Untill some APU comes along from miles away and summons 6 holy lightnings on your ass with a ROF of a hundred blots every zero seconds.
Range:50x pistols, 20xcannos, almost as far as a sniper rifle ffs.
Damage=5 slot CS anyone? 120 all stats?
ROF=kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! "you are dead..."
Monks are far better than Tanks. Monks are overpowered and/or Tanks are underpowered. Bandwagon my ass.
Zanathos everyone else is running around in power armor now with no runspeed penalties.
And don't gimme that realism crap, it's a computer game it's not meant to be realistic there are frigin monks with crap that comes out of those gauntlets the PWN everything HOW REALISTIC IS THAT?
It's supposed to be a FPS, I want to run around like in Quake, it sux being in old age pensioner mode with heavy weapon equipped
k thx bye
ya, tanks gimped for one on one, about the only thing good they have going for them that the other classes don't have is aoe (area of effect)
hmm, I hadn't thought of that until right now --- maybe one of the solutions to the current unbalance problem is to up aoe a bunch
just another thing i add now because i have a scatter brain,
if you want realism then why don't you play new CDV game
Combat Mission 3 Afrika Korps
(nice graphics)
http://www.cdv.de/games/popup.php?pict=images/vorschau/big/_cm3_7.jpg
To quote an old buddy of mine "Get some skillz" :p
No seriously, what's all this talk about tanks being nerfed? The tank I have now as my main char is still the same type of character as I had 6 months ago. Tanks haven't been nerfed, other classes have been boosted more.
The runspeed "cap" doesn't bother me that much, a high damage dealer AND damage taker that was running around doing his thing at full runspeed would bother me.
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:18
Originally posted by y544tji
Zanathos everyone else is running around in power armor now with no runspeed penalties.
Monk PA has a runspeed hit.
Originally posted by Benjie
........Untill some APU comes along from miles away and summons 6 holy lightnings on your ass with a ROF of a hundred blots every zero seconds.
Oh look, another exaggeration. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Benjie
Range:50x pistols, 20xcannos, almost as far as a sniper rifle ffs.
264m, compared to the 550m of a sniper rifle. You're right, HL IS SNIPER! :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Benjie
Monks are far better than Tanks. Monks are overpowered .
Overpowered my ass. People don't know how to correctly analyze the problem. Thank god none of you are on the dev team. Range needs to be cut in half, and energy damage is slightly high. That's it. But it gets all blown out of proportion.
Don't forget that are 2 COMPLETELY different classes inside monks. SO you can't just say monks, you gotta be specific. But then again, being specific, not exaggerating, and stating facts is beyond the simplistic minds of the people on this forum. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Opiate
Tanks haven't been nerfed, other classes have been boosted more.
EXACTLY!
shadowdancer what i meant by everyone is running around in powerarmor and not getting slowed down was responce to the guy who wants realism and everyone to move like a grandma in armor
its just tanks with heavy weapons that cant move with weapon equiped ;/.
and about monks pa that reduces agilty and we all know how much free points monks have for that :D
and as for APU monk balance that is fine, nothing wrong there
the imbalance is wholy on the PPU side and they need a nerf a big nerf bwawahahahahaa
and yeah i know all the other classes been boosted, but tanks haven't but now that all the other classes are boosted how about UNNERFING the old age pensioner runspeed when heavy weapon equipped, now its the right time to do it.
new weapons and toys wont help tanks at all, its the runspeed WHILST THE HEAVY WEAPON IS EQUIPED
and that was NERFED long ago when every other class sucked coz no one knew how to play them. now everybody knows practically what is good so tanks are not the uber anymore so you can take the runspeed crapola off now kk tanks dont pwn anymore
So in other words.... Tanks have been nerfed. It doesn't matter how you word it, tanks have been left out tanks now suck tanks arn't as good as they should be.
Monks Are overpowered. Simple as that.
monk>tank
PE's have better defence and equall offence. Plus I am refering to hybrid pe's. Tanks don't get so much choice.
pe>tank
Spy's... meh! Spy <> Tank BUT spy's can use tactics and tradeskill and get far more choice than tanks.
spy>tank
Tanks arn't fullfilling there true role as the damage taker.
meh!
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:27
Originally posted by y544tji
shadowdancer what i meant by everyone is running around in powerarmor and not getting slowed down was responce to the guy who wants realism and everyone to move like a grandma in armor
its just tanks with heavy weapons that cant move with weapon equiped ;/.
and about monks pa that reduces agilty and we all know how much free points monks have for that :D
and as for APU monk balance that is fine, nothing wrong there
the imbalance is wholy on the PPU side and they need a nerf a big nerf bwawahahahahaa
Here's an idea, for people who think apu/ppu teams are too uber. How about making healing based on con? That way tanks who get healed(or heal i guess) will be healed much better and faster than someone with low con.
That way tank/ppu team will pwn just as much as apu/ppu, but in a different way.
i edited my post abit
just to say that tanks will be cool again with the snail speed taken off when weapon equipped
i dont think new toys for tanks will help AT ALL if the runspeed still sux like that
yeah i think that is a cool idea making healing based on con, that will be an easy thing to code also, cant expect much from the coders can we.
just make it good enough so ppus cant heal themselves and tank 10 ppl's damage whilst they laugh back, untill someone sneaks a tl3 heal in its lame
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:34
But one of the advantages of being a pistolero is that you have full runspeed. ANd one of the advantages of being a rifler is that you have good runspeed and not as low as cannons. If you take away the runpseed thingy from cannons, you would have to do the same for rifles. And then pistols would lose their advantage.
yeah but quake style running is cool with big ass weapons
i want it like that :D
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:36
...........
yeah thats right
cant talk now, because you know its right
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:43
lmao no, I don't think it's right. For reasons already stated...............
There must be something wrong with tanks atm as they are no longer seen anywhere. They either need new gadgets or some improvement to cannons to make them more cannon-like. :)
And Shadow Dancer, due to the clipping plane errors and false display of range, the maximum range of HL is very near Disrupter's max distance.
That combined to 105/min rof, no need to hold the reticle on target, high damage (more than capped energymodded CS) and no missed shots (unless the APU's a fuckup and doesn't know runcast tricks :) ) means that HL is the most effective weapon when combined with the occasional FA shots to deal with those pesky stealthing spies.
Oh yeah, KK must fix the freaking tank ranks. They are far too low at the moment.
Edit: Oh yeah, I do think that APU's should do a lot damage, but the current situation is a bit... stupid.
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:54
Originally posted by japata
And Shadow Dancer, due to the clipping plane errors and false display of range, the maximum range of HL is very near Disrupter's max distance.
264 compared to 550. 550 is the max you can hit someone before not hitbox even shows up at all on them. I'm already including clipping plan BS. How is 264 "very near" 550?
Btw disruptor isn't a sniper rifle.
Originally posted by japata
Oh yeah, KK must fix the freaking tank ranks. They are far too low at the moment.
Oh yeah i forgot that, tanks have the lowest ranks in the game
lol shows that kk really do enjoy seeing them gimpy
it must give some sort of a pleasure ;/
and fix the super high rank when implant tool equipped
seen alot of level 2 chars doing that trick and power leveling to a high level in a day
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 09:57
Originally posted by y544tji
Oh yeah i forgot that, tanks have the lowest ranks in the game
lol shows that kk really do enjoy seeing them gimpy
it must give some sort of a pleasure ;/
Who cares about ranks? Their meaningless.
Originally posted by y544tji
and fix the super high rank when implant tool equipped
seen alot of level 2 chars doing that trick and power leveling to a high level in a day
omg SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. :p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
264 compared to 550. 550 is the max you can hit someone before not hitbox even shows up at all on them. I'm already including clipping plan BS. How is 264 "very near" 550?
Btw disruptor isn't a sniper rifle.
Have you ever noticed that when range exceeds the 350m, distant characters turn to "shadows" and jump around. And clipping plane cuts of at about 500-600m depending a bit on the machine running NC. And as you probably have tested, the range displayed on spells is buggy and is actually a lot longer.
And besides, 264 is still too far away for tanks to hit even one shot out of a burst of four.
well my newbie friend i brought to neocron a few days ago has a higher rank than my tank, and he is soon to go past the 10 level limint on exp sharing in a team so i cant level him anymore as i use a speedgun when hunting ;/
and my friend plays a pe also
Shadow Dancer
30-10-03, 10:05
Originally posted by japata
the range displayed on spells is buggy and is actually a lot longer.
uhhh no it's not.
I can still hit a hell of alot farther away with pain easer than I can with firebeam(the highest range spell). And I compared both their ranges many times.
Originally posted by japata
And besides, 264 is still too far away for tanks to hit even one shot out of a burst of four.
I know, that's why I think apus should get a range nerf.
CryptoChronic
30-10-03, 10:08
Originally posted by y544tji
well my newbie friend i brought to neocron a few days ago has a higher rank than my tank, and he is soon to go past the 10 level limint on exp sharing in a team so i cant level him anymore as i use a speedgun when hunting ;/
and my friend plays a pe also
its 20 rank difference, not 10
[Edited, Insult / Spam - Ulle]
Yes, tank ranks need to be fixed, they are right now too low.
Instead of making tanks run faster I think rather the damage of the cannons should be increased a little in my opinion. And a smattering of xray armour added to the tank PAs (15-30-45-60 protection per PA type).
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 12:09
Umm, here's my 2nc-worth.
Whilst a Tank is wearing PA he gets no runspeed penalty from heavy weapons due to the arour being designed to carry heavy weapons and therefor should have some kind of ballance system or weapons mount in the shoulder so the weapon doesn't encumber the tank the same.
Or summat to this effect.
Getting rid of the runspeed penality would be far too overpowering. Highest run speed, highest possible weapon based damage output, and high resists/HP all on the same character? Uh uh, too much.
Reducing the run speed by maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 while using PA (perhaps a continously lower speed reduction based on how good a PA suit you're wearing), however, I'm all for. The current speed nerf is a bit much.
agreed tanks are already easy to hit because of theyre big hitboxes and when theyre paraschoked theres nothing in it for them to try to move they are just doomed....
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 13:37
Don't feed the trolls please.
This is not quake.
It's Neocron, an MMORPG, with FPS Elements.
Jesus, there's far too much wrong with these threads...
it really is funny the run speed a tank drops to with his cannon out, i have somthing like 70/105(though cant remember of top of head) for ath and agility, and run fast, but as soon as the cannon comes out its like ive just been shot in the legs whilst carrying a heavy weight.
concidering the CS i think weights less than a first love(again off top of head) maybe spys should take the slow down:p
before the run speed nerf it was fun, but then you could run with your gun out all the time which seems a bit silly.
maybe they should reduce the tank speed nerf by maybe 1/2 what it is now
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 13:41
Rifles do get slow down.
And yes, we already know about the whole "OMFG CS is lighter than EVERY OTHER PLASMA WEAPON AND THEIR AMMO IS LIGHTER TOO"
Just some discrete left overs from "Tankocron" observations.
Because Tanks have not been nerfed since Tankocron, all the old imbalances, are still there.
Dostan'Ilindith
30-10-03, 13:42
a tank without a runspeed penalty would be almost the same as a PE using a cs as a pistol.
[Edited for Forum Rule Violation - Ulle]
OMFG look at all the PEs coming to defend there class cos they feel threatened
ffs its a idea, tank may not of had a nerf but they havnt had a change of anykind.
so why dont you pes go back to playing with your little toys instead
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 13:54
Originally posted by ezza
OMFG look at all the PEs coming to defend there class cos they feel threatened
ffs its a idea, tank may not of had a nerf but they havnt had a change of anykind.
so why dont you pes go back to playing with your little toys instead
If all the PEs feel threatened, it's for a reason.
As for your ignorance.
If you didn't know, I play every class.
Every, Single One.
Soon that will include Every Single Weapon Subclass as well.
Heh, poor tanks can't give *real* reasons they should get boosted so they have to resort to this.
Yes, there is a problem, no this problem should not do something to unbalance the Tank Vs PE which is currently balanced when Stealth is Excluded.
No, I do not like the fact that PEs can use Stealth.
Even when Stealth is included, a *GOOD* Tank gets some advantage back during the Stealthed Period.
And a *GREAT* Tank doesn't lose the PE from the Stealth, although that is sometimes difficult.
To quote ND
Stop whining, and get some skills.
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Umm, here's my 2nc-worth.
Whilst a Tank is wearing PA he gets no runspeed penalty from heavy weapons due to the arour being designed to carry heavy weapons and therefor should have some kind of ballance system or weapons mount in the shoulder so the weapon doesn't encumber the tank the same.
Or summat to this effect.
Was just about to say that! Great idea!
DjSKum
one more thing about the HL... its THE best weapon in the game... its just soo sweet... massive dmg great rof uber range no aiming....
nothing even comes close to it....
oh btw argh my tank takes massive dmg (40+) from a rog... it has nice rof, prolly uber aim and its a pistol....
how can you as a tank compete to that?
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 14:05
Hmm, i'm begining to get disillusioned here.
Why don't the devs just erase all four classes and add the whiner class? I think virtually everyone in this game would qualify for it (yes, i include myself in that category too).
People, there's a problem, yes.
The major problems are:
APU+PPU = IMMORTAL! Totally unballanced
GenTanks = left out from nearly all recent changes and as such is unballanced now when comaperd to other classes.
Parashock too powerful = kills PvP and REALLY gives skags (Random PKers) a bonus.
Weapon and ammo weights unballanced = screws the spy majorly over weight.
Synch warp still happening though nowhere near as bad as before = annoyed apt owners getting uninvited guests and frustrated players.
Anyone care to add to that list?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If all the PEs feel threatened, it's for a reason.
As for your ignorance.
If you didn't know, I play every class.
Every, Single One.
Soon that will include Every Single Weapon Subclass as well.
Heh, poor tanks can't give *real* reasons they should get boosted so they have to resort to this.
Yes, there is a problem, no this problem should not do something to unbalance the Tank Vs PE which is currently balanced when Stealth is Excluded.
No, I do not like the fact that PEs can use Stealth.
Even when Stealth is included, a *GOOD* Tank gets some advantage back during the Stealthed Period.
And a *GREAT* Tank doesn't lose the PE from the Stealth, although that is sometimes difficult.
To quote ND
Stop whining, and get some skills.
umm i have NP fighting other class so keep you fucking comments to yourself
the point im making isnt that tanks cant take on other classes cos they can and if you have seen any of my other posts you would know that instead of trying to come accross as some egotisticaly PE who knows all, the point is that tanks take a big hit on the run speed nothing more nothing less, so i dont need you pes to tell me to get some skills
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 14:11
APU+PPU = Not totally immortal, I've _SOLOED_ APU/PPU Teams on both my Tank and My PE (PE more than once, Tank only once, but my Tank is rarely used because I prefer Pistol PE over pretty much every class in the game).
RoLH PE may be too much, I can't say I've had much experience with it, I've never even fought Fang when he was using his RoLH.
I've had mixed reports about the gun, some people say it's amazing, and use it.
Some people say it's useless, and not worth it.
Without SA it's not even viable(if you want to compete at my kinda level anyway), so I wont have chance to toy with it for a long time.
alpha ~ pretty true.
Originally posted by ezza
umm i have NP fighting other class so keep you fucking comments to yourself
the point im making isnt that tanks cant take on other classes cos they can and if you have seen any of my other posts you would know that instead of trying to come accross as some egotisticaly PE who knows all, the point is that tanks take a big hit on the run speed nothing more nothing less, so i dont need you pes to tell me to get some skills
You continue to call me a PE, lol, narrow minded.
Runspeed nerf, yea, it's there for a reason, Give my PE a weapon with the same power aiming and accuracy and rof of CS that I can run around with without runspeed nerf and you can have your nerf lifted.
It's there for a reason.
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 14:15
I have seen a PPU just stand there and take constant fire from 20 capped Tanks using CSs, Speeds, Mallys, Dooms, Moonies etc etc and the guys just STOOD there! Hell, he didn't even drop 50 hps during the whole 5 minute barrage!!!!!!
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 14:16
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
I have seen a PPU just stand there and take constant fire from 20 capped Tanks using CSs, Speeds, Mallys, Dooms, Moonies etc etc and the guys just STOOD there! Hell, he didn't even drop 50 hps during the whole 5 minute barrage!!!!!! *Scratches head*
Can they aim or...?
That's truly pathetic...especially considering I can solo them.. -_-
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
*Scratches head*
Can they aim or...?
That's truly pathetic...especially considering I can solo them.. -_-
maybe not everyone is as god like as youo_O
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 14:19
Originally posted by ezza
maybe not everyone is as god like as youo_O Which is why they should not have oppinions in regards to balance.
Sorry, but if people are not capable of these things in this current game, they should not be allowed to adjust the game, because if they do, people like me will always come along and go "...oh 'ey up they left this wide open for uberisation."
EG;
PPUs/APUs/Hybrids...
*Toys with idea*
Why don't we move Shelter down to TL 18, and give Tanks more Starting PSI Points, that way, it's reachable for Spies naturally, and druggable for Tanks with either 1 rare, or 2 non-rare drugs.
(Tanks need the extra PSI points obviously because of their heavily taxed PSI Subskill).
Of course, this would actually require "Effort" on part of the tank in terms of configuration and pre-battle/battle thought......so..............ya know....whiny tanks probably wouldn't go for this...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Which is why they should not have oppinions in regards to balance.
Sorry, but if people are not capable of these things in this current game, they should not be allowed to adjust the game, because if they do, people like me will always come along and go "...oh 'ey up they left this wide open for uberisation."
EG;
PPUs/APUs/Hybrids...
so the game should be setup for the elite players only then?
cos thats basically what your saying
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 14:22
Games should be balanced on the capabilities of the best players.
There's no point in saying "oh yea, this PPU is balanced he dies a lot" when it's a newb who's just bought an account from a capped player and doesn't know exactly what he's doing... is there?
What's more, is if balance is done top down (As most computer program design is done...basically ...because it's logical (functional decomposition), the newbies will come in at the bottom and work their way up, and those at the top will have no vestige of exploit / hidden knowledge to hide behind to make them uber.
All they will have, is their gun, their reactions, and their skill....
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 14:25
Quantum, ur saying that the ballance hyas to be maintained for low, mid, high AND uber level players. Right?
If so then i'm all for that. Being a lowbie in NC atm is hell. But being a highbe is just boring. NC atm is best for mids, more content tho less story (:()
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Games should be balanced on the capabilities of the best players.
There's no point in saying "oh yea, this PPU is balanced he dies a lot" when it's a newb who's just bought an account from a capped player and doesn't know exactly what he's doing... is there?
What's more, is if balance is done top down (As most computer program design is done...basically ...because it's logical (functional decomposition), the newbies will come in at the bottom and work their way up, and those at the top will have no vestige of exploit / hidden knowledge to hide behind to make them uber.
All they will have, is their gun, their reactions, and their skill....
you dont take balance of one player who can kill the PPU either though do you?
you have to take it from a whole not just the top % of players.
i can play happily under the current system, the run speed is a minor problem, i mean ive killed a PE in who is posting for me to get skills on saturn so that means nothing to me.
anyway this is getting far off topic, good for you if you can solo PPUs maybe we should have a QuantumDelta class of player who can be brough in to do just the job
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 14:35
tut tut, such sarcasm for one so young!
Yeah, i play a GenTank, along with every other class. Yeah, the runspeed annoys me. But i just work around it, i play around it. It just means i have to be that little bit faster.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 14:46
QD class eh?
Sounds overpowered.
anyway, balance for the mid/low level players doesn't really matter in NC, most people don't "PvP" until they're at least 66% Capped, or on a PE, closer to 90% Capped.
I personally don't PvP on a character until they're 90-95% capped.
PEs/Tanks/Monks/Spies.
Although, that said, Monks are capable of putting out where other characters can't.....
Balance, top end, maximum capability, should be based, on the very best and nothing else.
I put it like this before;
"I don't mind if a Pistol PE working at about 50% the maximum PEs can work at doesn't have a chance at beating a Tank at 20% of it's maximum (this isn't refering to levels, this is refering to skill and configurations), I care that no matter how HARD it is, that the PE, and Tank, 100% are equal."
Most Tanks don't want that.
Most Tanks want "Non-Drugged, Non-buffed me to be equal to a fully buffed and drugged him."
Which is why, idiots should not be allowed to do class balance.
Lets not resolve to calling names and stay civil.
But there is some truth in what QD is saying.
Balancing should be based on the most skilled players of that class.
And, one must always take in consideration that the real powerfull PEs run around with 2 drugs at the time. Even I, when I play my PE, as only moderately good Runner need to use a drug for my setup.
PS: The idea about changing the requirements for the shelter so a drugged tank can cast it is very interesting.
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 15:07
Umm, i dunno if anyone here is loosing perspective of the PEs role but... the PE is a general char, jack of all and master of none. The PE should be in the middle of the triangle formed by the three other classes.
Healthier than the Psi, stronger than the Spy, more agile and intelligent than the Tank.
Anyone seeing a pattern here?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
QD class eh?
Sounds overpowered.
anyway, balance for the mid/low level players doesn't really matter in NC, most people don't "PvP" until they're at least 66% Capped, or on a PE, closer to 90% Capped.
I personally don't PvP on a character until they're 90-95% capped.
PEs/Tanks/Monks/Spies.
Although, that said, Monks are capable of putting out where other characters can't.....
Balance, top end, maximum capability, should be based, on the very best and nothing else.
I put it like this before;
"I don't mind if a Pistol PE working at about 50% the maximum PEs can work at doesn't have a chance at beating a Tank at 20% of it's maximum (this isn't refering to levels, this is refering to skill and configurations), I care that no matter how HARD it is, that the PE, and Tank, 100% are equal."
Most Tanks don't want that.
Most Tanks want "Non-Drugged, Non-buffed me to be equal to a fully buffed and drugged him."
Which is why, idiots should not be allowed to do class balance.
but would a slight increase in tanks speed with a weapon out imbalance the game?
and yeah i know that most tanks want to be as good as totaly drugged out PEs who can PvP, but dont throw me in with them, hell on occission i drug my tank up depending on the situations, but the way it is tanks have been left behind and something does need to be done.
and if ive brough this thread down to name calling them apoliges, however i still feel tanks need something, though id rather us get a new gun or somthing or change the doombeamer to DOG style attack, thats style attack not ROG aiming or anything, though no doubt you will jump on me for that as well:rolleyes: :p
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:11
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Umm, i dunno if anyone here is loosing perspective of the PEs role but... the PE is a general char, jack of all and master of none. The PE should be in the middle of the triangle formed by the three other classes.
Healthier than the Psi, stronger than the Spy, more agile and intelligent than the Tank.
Anyone seeing a pattern here?
Sadly, JOAT does not fit the Neocron world.
If it did you would see more than the "odd" PE running around with TPC, or with Drones, or with the ability to hack, drive, and use APU.
It's not, the PE is not a JOAT.
It's a highly, HIGHLY specialisation demanding character, that uses Drones, Pistols, or Rifles to be "good", it draws on all statlines simultaneously to perform with variation, equal, to those "Pure characters."
Dependant on Moderate armor, Moderate PSI, Moderate CON, Moderate INT and Moderate DEX The PE must barter between all of it's skills, sacrificing a little here, boosting a little there, manipulating it's stats until it is a decently capable combat character.
edit;
Gatlin Cannon would be nice (monkocron).
Also the suggested idea of barrel effects being left by AoE Cannons, also, increasing AoE cannons damage.
Also, a VERY SLIGHT reduction in the amount of speed that is nerfed by the runspeed nerf.
As I have already said in the other thread, the Tank I use almost already runs at the speed of my Pistol PE, with his Cannon out.
I also, personally feel that Tank Armor should be given a STR 100-115 Range, values that roughly equal PSI Monk Armor.
I feel that this armor should give some protection to all damage types.
I also, feel that Inqui 1 and 2, should have their requirements lowered..
second edit;
Actually, make that armor STR 105-120 just to give them something to drug to.
Currently, there is absolutely ZERO Point in taking a Tank STR beyond 115, what's more, is there is very little point of having Tank STR at 115.
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 15:16
So what your saying is that the PE is something of an elite character, easy to start but hard to master?
Sounds a bit like the combat system for Severance: Blade of Darkness (ahh, my mistress of all games)
And yes, i do prefer PEs. As soon as my PC is repaired i'm rerolling my Tank on Pluto into either a Spy or PE as i prefer dex based weapons (hence why he isn't in my sig any more). I still love the Gattlin cannon tho :). Mebbe i will go PE and do HW and driving
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:18
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
So what your saying is that the PE is something of an elite character, easy to start but hard to master?
In this game, that's true for every class :p
But yes, it's been observed by most people who have tried all classes, that PEs (especially rifle pes) are extremely difficult to configure professionally or above :p
And yes, i do prefer PEs. As soon as my PC is repaired i'm rerolling my Tank on Pluto into either a Spy or PE as i prefer dex based weapons (hence why he isn't in my sig any more). I still love the Gattlin cannon tho :). Mebbe i will go PE and do HW and driving
My Tank has beaten other Tanks with my Tanks TSG ....before he could even use CS... I love Gatlins toooooooooooo :p
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
So what your saying is that the PE is something of an elite character, easy to start but hard to master?
Sounds a bit like the combat system for Severance: Blade of Darkness (ahh, my mistress of all games)
And yes, i do prefer PEs. As soon as my PC is repaired i'm rerolling my Tank on Pluto into either a Spy or PE as i prefer dex based weapons (hence why he isn't in my sig any more). I still love the Gattlin cannon tho :). Mebbe i will go PE and do HW and driving
id say PE is the hardest to master, ive come accross some real noobish PEs who think they own but sadly they do not cos they have just thrown there character togeather or not spent enough time on there resists
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 15:24
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
My Tank has beaten other Tanks with my Tanks TSG ....before he could even use CS... I love Gatlins toooooooooooo :p
Gattlin weapons just have a certain class about them, shame that 3 out of the 4 HW gattlins use the wrong model. Only the middle Gattlin Cannon has the decent one, the others abscure the view too much AND are in the wrong place in 3rd person!
That's one of the minor tweaks i would like seen fixed
ericdraven
30-10-03, 15:29
QD, i hope you don't mind that i quote you in my sig.
It's just exactly what i think.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:36
LOL *Sweatdrops*
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 15:37
Eric, who's the female vampy in your sig pic? she looks familiar.
ive never had a problem with PE's rifle or pistol, i just cant fight high ranked apu's (60+) there speed, auto ret and damage just takes the piss.
ericdraven
30-10-03, 15:40
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Eric, who's the female vampy in your sig pic? she looks familiar.
Unfortuntely.... i don't know her personal. :p
(she is just the best looking vampy i found on my HDD ;))
death&decay
30-10-03, 15:41
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
As I have already said in the other thread, the Tank I use almost already runs at the speed of my Pistol PE, with his Cannon out.
LAFF!!!!!!111
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:43
Originally posted by death&decay
LAFF!!!!!!111
Tank ATL 95.
Tank AGL 140.
PE ATL 75.
PE AGL 76.
Meh.
The little difference is also somewhat dictated by my low FPS.
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 15:46
Originally posted by ericdraven
(she is just the best looking vampy i found on my HDD ;))
AMEN!!!!!!
I think she starrred in quite a few vampy movies around the 50s era, can't be certain, 50's rings a bell.
Edit: I know of someone who has a big interest in female vampire mythos and the whole culture surrounding them. I'll ask her.
hmm thats with redflash+whiteflash? or ppu buffs....
yes tanks move nice with those specs.. got about the same on my tank.. but most apus and pes still outrun me when i have a weapon out...
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:52
Originally posted by deac
hmm thats with redflash+whiteflash? or ppu buffs....
yes tanks move nice with those specs.. got about the same on my tank.. but most apus and pes still outrun me when i have a weapon out... No PPU buffs there.
Yes, two drugs, less than what my PE uses to get to his absolute maximum (which I very.....very rarely do....no one who had fought my PE for a while was worth more than one drug....)
Incidentally, when a PPU is around, I ask for MC3/Spy3 more often than HC3/Spy3.
death&decay
30-10-03, 15:52
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Tank ATL 95.
Tank AGL 140.
PE ATL 75.
PE AGL 76.
Meh.
The little difference is also somewhat dictated by my low FPS.
Even if you absolutely capped runspeed on your tank, you'll never
ever be as quick as PEs.
I drugged to 120/160something and it didn't get better.
My fps usually are 47ish
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 15:55
I told ya in the other thread, my FPS is typically 20, sometimes as low as 10, in big op fights, it can even get down to 5.
This is the main reason all of my setups are defence orientated, and I accomodated this fact on a subconcious level before I even knew it for real o_O
But, generally, I'm told "No matter how good you are at a game you cannot make up for having low FPS with skill."
Everytime I fight I try to prove that wrong.
Fight Night in the basement of Crest Uplink taught me, it's not wrong... I couldn't even hit XaNToR in my duel with him because I had 3-7 FPS...
And I said ALMOST AS FAST not faster, and not Equal.
It wont ever get faster that's true, but it's not MEANT to man.
Seeing CS Tanks running around like that without them Fixing Liberator/CS aiming would seriously fuck me off.
ericdraven
30-10-03, 16:00
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Edit: I know of someone who has a big interest in female vampire mythos and the whole culture surrounding them. I'll ask her.
Altho this is OT, but let me know. ;)
I really wouldn't mind seeing tanks get a runspeed unnerf WITH PA on. Without PA, I think it should stay the same. But with PA...well, make it based on which PA you use.
I'd say each PA should drop the runspeed hit by somewhere between 10 to 20% cumulative, so if the value was 10%, PA 1 would give a 10% reduction in hit, PA 2 would give a 20% reduction, etc. It would have to be tested to make sure that balance is maintained though.
Thinking about it a little more, I'd say a 15% reduction in the runspeed hit per PA level ought to be balanced. 45% hit reduction with PA 3 sounds reasonable. Gives us tanks a reason to want to use the PA now that we got our colors taken away. :\ (Damn you KK, I wanna be a smurf again!)
--Stryfe
death&decay
30-10-03, 16:17
I screwed up, double post o_O
death&decay
30-10-03, 16:24
Are you the lord himself so that you may decide what's meant
to be and what not?
I'm just curious.
I could say tanks are meant to die.
Those statements are pointless.
//edit: Let's do it this way:
PEs got a higher output/defense ratio than tanks. I can prove it
in face-to-face.
PEs run quicker, that's a fact. Could also prove it if needed, by
doing a race O_o
RoLH is more accurate than CS, everyone can test that.
Just shoot at a target that's 10 meters from you and see how
many shots hit.
PEs heal is better, any doubts? Thanks.
PEs got stealth and they can tradeskill. (While being leet the
same time)
Now what do tanks have left as an advantage to compensate
for all that?
Monks should be stronger than tanks..
we made em in the ceres war and they were/are expendable;)
death&decay
30-10-03, 16:36
Originally posted by Ascention
Monks should be stronger than tanks..
we made em in the ceres war and they were/are expendable;)
Please delete that post
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 16:40
Originally posted by death&decay
Are you the lord himself so that you may decide what's meant
to be and what not?
I'm just curious.
KK decided this, when they made it this way.
The community didn't suggest it, KK did it of their own volition.
I could say tanks are meant to die.
Those statements are pointless.
....FYI Tanks are meant to die...heh, if something like a Monk had designed Tanks to TRULY be the best fighters, Tanks would have been genetically modified to have very short life span, and a very good affinity (good metabolism) for performance enhancing drugs.
//edit: Let's do it this way:
PEs got a higher output/defense ratio than tanks. I can prove it
in face-to-face.
Defence, yes.
Offence? I will test that when I get the chance.
PEs run quicker, that's a fact. Could also prove it if needed, by
doing a race O_o
No one is disputing this fact, it is, afterall, the way it is meant to be, however, the difference is not as big as you people are making it out to be.
RoLH is more accurate than CS, everyone can test that. Just shoot at a target that's 10 meters from you and see how many shots hit.
Of course it is, it's a pistol.
It's higher TL than CS, too.
PEs heal is better, any doubts? Thanks.
Excluding the Heal Sanctum Spell, this difference, again, is not as significant as you suggest, a 120% damage Heal + correctly configured Tank PSI = Very Close to Cap.
PEs got stealth and they can tradeskill. (While being leet the
same time)
I wish, that there was a reason PEs would need to put all of their INT somewhere.
My PE has Poking, simply because there's nothing better (combat wise) to do with his INT.
He has High WEP for a Pistoler.
And INSANE PSU for a non-Monk.
Now what do tanks have left as an advantage to compensate
for all that?[/B]
Higher HP (If you have less you're working too much on Resists and this is counter-productive, because I used to think Resists>HP too, it was made obvious to me a while back, that this was not the case, while it is true, cap HP isn't the best way to go about it, my Tank has 530 HP for lack of places to put points).
Close-To-Cap Natural Resists.
The most Powerful PvP Weapon in the Game over an Extended Period of Time.
(Burst Bonus = Teh Win, and HL which is one of the only weapons that exceeds the Cursed Soul runs out of mana, then faces Serious RoF Dropoff, you call this bull, well, Lupus' tests more or less show this is the case, PvP only, however, and also, point a PE at a _Tank_ and a Tank at a _PE_ does not show which weapon is more powerful, I would suggest if the test is failing in such a manour that it would be best to try the suggests I made previously, if you didn't notice I am looking for _BALANCE_ Not "Boost this class......nerf this class..............oh nerf this weapon....." which is why, most oppinions, when compared to mine, are flawed, because they look at the individual weapon/class/character compared to another individual weapon/class/character, or they look at this in a singluar situation, where as I attempt to look at 100% of the big picture, instead, of the tiny fact, ergo; I am aware of the exact reason the PPU is "overpowered", where as most people still have trouble pinning it down.......)
Sigh...
FYI, I will always take the opposite school of thought to someones idea if I do not wholely support their idea.
Simply because unless it is genuinely an attempt to bring balance, instead of just a short sighted attempt to boost a single thing, or nerf a single thing, I rarely see any "Good" come of it.
I don't want to see Tanks disadvantaged (as I admit, right now, they are), however, balancing is more complex than just dueling, or just op wars, because you have to take both into account, also, it's best to look at it in terms of;
Tradeskill = /Set Nerf_Self 1.
At least, I wish that were how it was.
Hmm.
Read the suggestions I made.
Originally posted by death&decay
Please delete that post
Yup, delete it or...................i'll slap you.
WITH a fish.
Then i'll fry it, and eat it, and then you can tell your mates you got slapped with a fish and the guy that did it cooked it and ate it all up.
@ Qd, stop looking at tanks through the eyes of a Pe.
Alpha-Omega
30-10-03, 16:51
Oath, QD is NOT looking through a PEs eyes.
Ever since i joined these boards i have been a devil's advocate because i have played ALL classes and sub-classes, even down to APU PEs and HW Spies.
The reason i do this? I hate capping chars as it just gets boring then, all thats left is PvP and that isn't my style, so i experiment.
The majority of QDs comments have been ballanced and concern all the classes. This isn't just about whether tanks should or shouldn't get a boost in runspeed with HWs drawn, this is about making sure such a boost wouldn't fry another class in the process.
death&decay
30-10-03, 17:00
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
KK decided this, when they made it this way.
The community didn't suggest it, KK did it of their own volition.
Yeah KK decided that. And? You think it's right that way just coz
KK decided that? Lol we don't need to talk about it then. Weird.
We're talking about balancing and you say "KK decided that so it's
just fine" LMAO that made my day dude...
You mentioned CS as the weapon with the highest damage
output overtime? I say it again again again do a face to face.
No point in that.
And yeah rolh has a higher TL. 3. And? There's no higher weapon
for tanks so we have to compare the highest ones.
And quit bugging me with the history crap "monks made tanks
yadda yadda" It is a game, A GAME in which everyone should have the chance to be an equal fighter, in his own special ways.
Tanks can't do nothing, nothing at all but running towards others
shooting them. And you say they're not meant to master that?
What else can they master if not combat, being one of the most
specialized classes of dem all...
I could reflect all your words in one sentence:
"KK made tanks suck so they're meant to suck so the fact that
they suck is absolutely okay."
(Exaggerated, but that's where you're heading)
death&decay
30-10-03, 17:03
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Ever since i joined these boards i have been a devil's advocate because i have played ALL classes and sub-classes, even down to APU PEs and HW Spies.
Same here and my chars are all capped and pvp approved.
(not fully capped, some stuff like con for tank or int for monk missing)
I'm not taking sides but I can see balance issues.
QuantumDelta
30-10-03, 17:10
You put words in my mouth....that's insulting....
Originally posted by death&decay
Yeah KK decided that. And? You think it's right that way just coz
KK decided that? Lol we don't need to talk about it then. Weird.
We're talking about balancing and you say "KK decided that so it's
just fine" LMAO that made my day dude...
You mentioned CS as the weapon with the highest damage
output overtime? I say it again again again do a face to face.
No point in that.
KK decide class roles, KK decide game dynamics, balance within those dynamics, are more or less up to a mixture of us, and them.
Whilst they hold all the cards, and all the keys to balance, they listen to us, and follow us, which is why when balance comes around I take it very seriously.
And yeah rolh has a higher TL. 3. And? There's no higher weapon
for tanks so we have to compare the highest ones.
Then Slasher should be the comparative weapon, which PEs can't use, so my comparative would have to go to spies.
Do you really want to compare a Pistol Spy to a Tank?
RoLH, Vs CS, Against the _SAME_ Opponent = CS Wins.
Your tests are somewhat flawed in a few ways, basically when you are comparing weaponry, they should be compared against the same object, or person.
If they come out "as they should be". The problem, is not, in the weapons.
Is it :p
Hense my suggestions have not been based on CS, or RoLH, yet they have been based on Armor, and other, supporting weapons, to the Cursed Soul.
And quit bugging me with the history crap "monks made tanks
yadda yadda" It is a game, A GAME in which everyone should have the chance to be an equal fighter, in his own special ways.
This is what I used to believe, but as long as the PPU class exists, this is an unfair comment, as said above.
I wonder if you actually took time to digest everything I've said in this thread, or just tried to counter my comments in any way possible, because while I respect you, it seems the latter is what you're doing.
Tanks can't do nothing, nothing at all but running towards others
shooting them. And you say they're not meant to master that?
They are master of that, there are several situations where in combat, in REAL combat, not duels, that the tank is superior to everyone, including APUs, providing both the APU and the Tank had PPUs, there are, situations where Tanks+PPU > APU+PPU.
It's difficult, however, far from impossible.
What else can they master if not combat, being one of the most
specialized classes of dem all...
I am not trying to leave the tank shitty.
I'm just trying to find a better, more rounded balanced way to do it, than a simple short sighted boost or nerf to an individual class or weapon.
I could reflect all your words in one sentence:
"KK made tanks suck so they're meant to suck so the fact that
they suck is absolutely okay."
(Exaggerated, but that's where you're heading)
[/B]
This in itself, shows the difference between my arguments, and your own.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
[B]
They are master of that, there are several situations where in combat, in REAL combat, not duels, that the tank is superior to everyone, including APUs, providing both the APU and the Tank had PPUs, there are, situations where Tanks+PPU > APU+PPU.
It's difficult, however, far from impossible.
Its not that hard is just utterly pointless once the apu goes down then theres no way in hell the tank can kill the ppu... soo the ppu just runs around trying to rez the apu.... but the apu+ppu team have a much higher chance of killing the tanks ppu....
Well if the tanks ppu could get a low tl defl or shelt on the other ppu then MAYBE the tank team could win...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Burst Bonus = Teh Win, and HL which is one of the only weapons that exceeds the Cursed Soul runs out of mana, then faces Serious RoF Dropoff,
it only matters in op wars... 360+ mana on my maxed hl is enuff to kill 2 tanks if i pop some boosters once i start to cast
death&decay
30-10-03, 17:42
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Then Slasher should be the comparative weapon, which PEs can't use, so my comparative would have to go to spies.
Do you really want to compare a Pistol Spy to a Tank?
RoLH, Vs CS, Against the _SAME_ Opponent = CS Wins.
Your tests are somewhat flawed in a few ways, basically when you are comparing weaponry, they should be compared against the same object, or person.
If they come out "as they should be". The problem, is not, in the weapons.
Is it :p
We're comparing PE to tank.
PE's output/defense ratio to tank's output/defense ratio.
I don't care if tanks or PEs can kill a warbot quicker, I wanna
know who wins when they duell and why.
That's why I compare The highest weapons they can use.
(and that make sense using coz it's about balance)
Of course CS might kill a spy quicker than rolh, or it may kill a tank
quicker than rolh, but that's not what we're talking about.
It is tank vs PE, their weapons, their armor.
//edit: it's an endless discussion and, since the balance stuff
doesn't bother me ingame, I'll quit it.
cheers
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