View Full Version : A new 'useful' spy addition?
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 00:15
OK, Not a new idea this, im sure youve all thought it. But im going to say it.
We are all aware the spy PA has 3 circular eye's extruding from the face.
As show below.
http://www.satanslaw.co.uk/upload/files/KaolinEye.gif
Wouldnt It be a great addition to Spy's and there use if one of these eyes (the other two for roleplay purposes used for aiming) had an ability to see cloaked runners. Now of course, They are only visible to the spy, and they cannot be targetted, But it allows for a spy to actually persue and track, or to be called into an OP war when a Spy or PE who continues to Attack then cloak is causing problems. It would also allow for PPU's and spys to work together using TSS to uncloak them while the PPU tells them when they are.
Here is a mockup of what I think it would look like (the player character being far fainter, but a sense of the predator glow around your foe)
http://www.satanslaw.co.uk/upload/files/hiddenPE.gif
Id like to see this ability as part of perhaps a rare incorperation into the spy Power armour. Collect so many techs and once constructed you add the 'eye' to your armour like modding a weapon.
Now, I can imagine some of you hating this idea as 'wheres the fun' in sneaking up on people and OP's when a spy is around.
Well, I can only suggest that it has limited range, and perhaps limited usage, say when used once it reduces your chosen weapon skill or gives a drug effect after several uses. These issues I would like you guys to cover.
What you think? :cool:
Ikari - Kaolin
It's...intriguing to say the least...
if this thing gets approved at all, it'll probably only be on PA4. Perhaps on PA3 as well, modified to be less than on PA4.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 00:20
Id like to think so, It would be brilliant to incorperate a use for a spy in an OP war instead of sniping for once..
Imagine runner over the hills and activating it, seeing a group of stealthed PE's heading towards your team..
Would be wicked :D
Dostan'Ilindith
26-10-03, 00:28
thats the best idea i ever heard..
although being a Stealth using PE...i wish it wasnt :P
love the idea, 5 stars. Being a spy (and cloaking alot) I still find it hard to pursue my foes when they are stealthed.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 00:35
Anyone know how I can get the 'stars' on this thread? im not sure how to do it...
Although saying that it doesnt make a difference, I just want peoples thoughts.
Very interesting idea. Here is a variant on it. There are already Dexterity based eye implants. So make it an eye implant that is Dexterity based and make the requirement high enough that only Spies can use it. It would let you see stealthers, but not target them.
I suggest that there be two of them, a TL 90 Rifle 4 that is basically a Rifle 3 plus the ability to see stealthers, and a TL 95 Smart-Cybereye 5 that is a Smart-Cybereye 4 plus the ability to see stealthers. This way they dont have to futz with altering armor to allow mods, which might be a lot of work and/or tricky.
Alternatively there is a new line of Spy Eyes, which show stealthers and variously include R-C, WEP, T-C, and INT.
Spook
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 00:42
I suggest that there be two of them, a TL 90 Rifle 4 that is basically a Rifle 3 plus the ability to see stealthers, and a TL 95 Smart-Cybereye 5 that is a Smart-Cybereye 4 plus the ability to see stealthers. This way they dont have to futz with altering armor to allow mods, which might be a lot of work and/or tricky.
Just the addition I needed from the community, Thankyou Spook :)
Think thats made it full proof :cool:
Void Dildano
26-10-03, 00:46
Why not a Stealth eye impant? Rare, high int and dex requirments.
So you would have to sacrifice some weaponskill boost for the ablity to spot other stealthers.
And add the recycler poking tool that removes coprses!
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 00:48
Why not a Stealth eye impant? Rare, high int and dex requirments.
Think 'Spook' beat you at that one m8 :p
clown, he also suggested a int req, so spook didn't exactly 'beat' him. =)
greendonkeyuk
26-10-03, 00:57
Give spies the ability to see other stealthers? GENIUS!
This is by far one of the best reasons to have spies at opfights, ppus got a true sight spell, yeah all good nice one, we spies need something too though. I love this idea.
Why not give it/them (the new eye things) the same reqs as stealth 2 and 3? Pe can ONLY just use it with drugs etc, and spy can use it comfortably.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 01:00
clown, he also suggested a int req, so spook didn't exactly 'beat' him. =)
Do apologise :D my eyes at this time of night o_O
:angel:
Would be very usefull idd, gimme :D
theoretically - YES YES OMG YES
practically - NCs engine = waaayy too shit for that, methinks...
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 01:24
theoretically - YES YES OMG YES
Positive, Positive, Positive...
practically - NCs engine = waaayy too shit for that, methinks...
And there she blows, KK's engine restriction? its questionable, If the Engine can handle the 'swirly' transparent blue sprite which floats about on the map, im sure they can add a transparent character model with a blue glow..? 8|
If the eye had an INT requirement, you then need to decide whether the design goal is to allow Spies to use it who are also wearing Rifle Kami chips ... because those have a -30 INT effect.
I don't think i have a druther one way or the other on that, at least not yet. So the following are observations, not complaints ...
Just as a baseline, I am a capped Spy, wear a Rifle Kami, wear Spy PA 2, use Stealth 3, and have a set of implants (including Smart Cybereye 4) that yield an effective INT of 81.
If i shuffle implants the best INT i can possibly get without an MC5 chip (i dont have one yet) is 85. But as a result i would only have a DEX of 114 so i would no longer be able to use my Disruptor (which requires 115); i would also lose some R-C and WEP but that would be okay. So if the requirement for the new eye was higher than 85 i would have to decide between using the eye, or using the Kami with the Disruptor and not the eye.
If i ever get an MC5 Synaptic Accelerator, the best INT i could get would be 90, and i would also have a DEX of 115, again with some loss of R-C and WEP but that would be okay. So i could use the eye with all of my current gear if the requirement was no higher than 90 and i also got an SA; make the requirement higher than 90, and i would have to decide between the eye and my Kami.
In both of the above configurations, i am assuming that the new eye is based on a Smart Cybereye 4 (because of its +4 INT) with the addition of being able to see stealthers.
So ... if such an eye comes into being, and there is an INT requirement, should a Rifle Kami wearer be able to use it, or not?
If the answer is "no", then setting the INT at like 95 would do the trick. If "yes", but it requires an MC5, then 90 could be the number. And if "yes" without requiring an MC5 then 85 or less would do.
Lastly, if the new eye does not include the +4 INT, just change the figures above to see the results; and by the way, Stealth 3 requires an INT of at least 80.
Spook
I'm between 'no' and 'yes with mc5'...
If you're a rifle kami, you're sacrificing the ability to see stealthed runners, but you get extreme power with the gun, yes?
It's a tradeoff... although now that I think about it it's not quite a balanced tradeoff, but I don't really have any other ideas. =\
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
And there she blows, KK's engine restriction? its questionable, If the Engine can handle the 'swirly' transparent blue sprite which floats about on the map, im sure they can add a transparent character model with a blue glow..? 8|
i didnt mean the graphics engine... i meant the functionality itself
guys, lets not get off track to much, if u notice he is talking about the eye on the POWER ARMOR. No implants and such u just get it as a plus from the power armor. Now kk put that in lol...
The implant thing is just a sub-idea in case KK doesn't want to go with reconfiguring the PA...
Erm ... we realize he meant the eyes on the power armor. I took us down the implant route as an alternative, because he was also talking about requiring that the armor be modded to obtain the stealther-seeing ability. My conjecture is that having a new implant will be less work and less tricky than making armor moddable. If i am wrong, then fine, lets go with modded armor.
Spook
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 03:17
In response to the whole 'kami' chip issue, sadly that is the sacrifice you pay for having such an increase on your rifle/high tech.
For those of us without a kami ie. Myself using PA 3 and inquisition setup we are pureposfully aiming to have all that we need, even if we arent taking it to the extreme.
And in terms of it being an implant or with the PA itself. I like both ideas, think there great. I await Raid, Lexxuk and SpyVsSpy's response :)
Ikari
how about since it has 3 seperate lenses, have 3 seperate views.
normal, night vision, and thermal.
Heh, those're nice ideas also Shujin. =)
Side comment: Erm... yeah, there's 3 eyes, on one side...what do you suppose your real right eye does? Stare into blackness? O_o;;;;; Seriously.
Originally posted by Kenjuten
Heh, those're nice ideas also Shujin. =)
Side comment: Erm... yeah, there's 3 eyes, on one side...what do you suppose your real right eye does? Stare into blackness? O_o;;;;; Seriously. u didnt know? its a lil mini game, prolly asteriods or space invaders
Originally posted by Shujin
u didnt know? its a lil mini game, prolly asteriods or space invaders
Or maybe a futuristic Online game set in the seedy city known as Neocron.
Anyway. Awesome idea. ALthough I dont PvP, I am a Pistol Spy and would probably grab this armour/implant/dildo of maven just for the "phr0ar" factor of being able to see cloakers.
*****
....
Hm..now that you mention it, I think it's bad enough people use LEs to spy on OPs...
I think this device should SORT OF only allow you to see stealthed runners of your own kind... LE'd runners could only see stealthed runners that have LEs, but I'm divided on whether to allow non-LE'd runners be able to see even LE'd stealthed runners...
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 03:49
Like this?
Night vision
http://www.satanslaw.co.uk/upload/files/Nightvision.gif
Heat Vision (rough mock ups but you get the idea)
http://www.satanslaw.co.uk/upload/files/Heatvision.gif
U like?
:cool:
Ikari
I want to see nightvision and thermalvision in-game!!!!!!!
Excellent idea, me want!
Night vision.. !! How come they didn't include -some- kind of NV from the very start, I mean this is far into the future for crying out loud. I used it a lot in DF2 and OFP 1985, was blind without it!
Thermal sounds very cool too, but at least NV should not be a problem to add to the spy PA.
But then the PE's, monks and tanks would start screaming about them being treated unfairly. So don't get any hopes just yet.
But still, the idea is great! A way to spot stealthed enemies, but with certain restrictions, sounds excellent.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 13:18
Glad you all like it.
Thermal is my favourite and would be used against stealthers also. Seems more appropriate..
KK READ MY THREAD! :mad:
Good idea, would massacre my FPs though lol.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 13:56
There could always be a simplified version if you are toning down your graphical effects :p
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Thermal is my favourite and would be used against stealthers also. Seems more appropriate..
yeah, I like thermal. But I know, what will happen:
"Nerf the spies!"
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 14:28
yeah, I like thermal. But I know, what will happen:
"Nerf the spies!"
Well the only way around that is too make it balanced, obviously when you are in thermal mode your awareness of life forms is doubled, however, You sacrifice your mobility, as things which are cold do not have a definative outline or shape. The same with Night vision, It allows for seeing perfectly in the dark, but due to the extreme colour of the green makes seeing hidden targets or even motionless runners hard to spot!
I think it balances itself. :angel:
Originally posted by maver!ck
yeah, I like thermal. But I know, what will happen:
"Nerf the spies!"
If spys go thermal vision........then got nerfer, thed they should also remove holy truesight sanctum.
fairs fair after all.
Originally posted by Oath
If spys go thermal vision........then got nerfer, thed they should also remove holy truesight sanctum.
well, the ones using trusight sanctum - PPUs - usually can't kill anyone.
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 15:11
If spys go thermal vision........then got nerfer, thed they should also remove holy truesight sanctum.
fairs fair after all.
Not quite Oath, the thermal vision allows to see Runners as well as cloaked players.
The true sight sanctum is to 'uncover' possible stealthers that are surrounding the team.
Combined together a Spy leading a PPU they could work together to combat those who feel the need to pop up - attack - stealth, rinse repeat.
Both pose no threat as you wouldnt be able to attack runners who are stealthed, just see them.
The only down side to it is, those PE's who feel the need to pop up - attack - stealth.
But saying that, Ive heard loads of threads about players wishing that PE's couldnt use stealth, well this is one angle at combating it.
Ikari - Kaolin
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Not quite Oath, the thermal vision allows to see Runners as well as cloaked players.
The true sight sanctum is to 'uncover' possible stealthers that are surrounding the team.
Combined together a Spy leading a PPU they could work together to combat those who feel the need to pop up - attack - stealth, rinse repeat.
Both pose no threat as you wouldnt be able to attack runners who are stealthed, just see them.
The only down side to it is, those PE's who feel the need to pop up - attack - stealth.
But saying that, Ive heard loads of threads about players wishing that PE's couldnt use stealth, well this is one angle at combating it.
Ikari - Kaolin
what can i say, im an extremist.
Eledhbrant
26-10-03, 15:44
I love the NV/Thermal ideas
Gimme.
5 stars :D
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 16:45
Where is lexxuk and Rade when you want there educated opinion? :(
lol
Also, from what I understand, it's incredibly hard for a PPU to utilize TSS during a big fight anyway. Right?
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 17:01
Not really.
Usually I cast catharsis then TSS ontop, para the stealther and just run up to him, dmg boost him after he is first uncovered and I can follow him till the rest of the crew arrive.
I think a thermal eye might be more effective and quick, just incase you dont manage to para him :p
Jesterthegreat
26-10-03, 17:04
should have made it a poll ^.^
i like the idea. no targeting, but able to see them. not too overpowered, yet it gives a spy a reason to go to an OP war :D
I said during a big fight, not exactly 1v1 situations.. =P
Anyways, just wondering is all. ^^;
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 17:21
should have made it a poll ^.^
Yeah would have, completely slipped my mind.
But it hasnt recieved any negative comments really, or no one is writing them.
Still waiting on 2 special peoples approval...
Yeah really sounds f.....in nice that idea and would be a little help to spy out stealthed peeps...but im not quite sure if it will work with the game engine...but at ALL its a really great idea me thinks :D
Spy<VS>Spy
26-10-03, 19:15
to be honost, i think the spy should have a specail EMP granade which disables cloak...instead of the monks having that gay santum. or some device...like a shock stick.
but no, being able to detect all cloakers so easily, not so cool. if there was a device though, held like a tool that gave you like infered vision or something like that, cut down your visbility like planet side to see cloakers that be fine. maybe make the requirements a spy PA to be worn or you cant interface with it.
on the subject of cloaking, i would not mind seeing more types introduced into the game. like say for observation cloak, you can stand still and be invsible all day, but as soon as you move it breaks. or even cooler would be specific day and night cloakers, that would last longer when neocron is durring the night or durring the day. you wouldnt be able to use a night cloaker in the day or vise versa, these would have greater length cloaking then standard cloak device.
and then i think there should be Phase cloakers, that makes one partially invisible or hard to target, this would make hitting the spy more difficult, he would be vunrable to AOE of course but dirrect fire weapons would have a much less chance of hitting him. with different levels of course.
personally i would not mind seeing there be a split to the spy's role in combat, he can either specilize in assiniation kinda fighting, get in undetected, luanch the attack at the precious moment of vunrability, do an ass load of damage and get out in the choas when the mission is done...or provide tactical help with a range of gadgets and so on. laying mines, one use traps, disrupting devices, how would you like instead of being parashocked a spy gave you a specail hug from behind and disabled all your chip implants? you might find yourself at a pretty steep disadvantage in a fight if your a implant whore using high level shit that requires those implants.
anywho...wishful thinking and all that crap. point in case, however. monks in NO way should have that true sight sanctum...remove it, NOW.
heh i kinda stole thread when i suggested thermal and night vision ;P
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Usually I cast catharsis then TSS ontop, para the stealther and just run up to him, dmg boost him after he is first uncovered and I can follow him till the rest of the crew arrive.
BTW: bad idea, I think, if you run to him with a catharsis sanctum, he'll lose the dmg boost and freeze you casted on him.
Yah, i agree, you shouldnt be able to see all stealthers anywhere, but only those within range ... say 75+ feet or so. This way it doesnt render hidden scouting or hidden advancing totally moot. You gotta *find* the enemy stealther(s) first, but then you can keep tabs on them and report their movements and/or setup an ambush.
If KK went with only being able to see friendly or teamed stealthers, then 30-50 feet would probably be enough to facilitate coordinated attacks by a stealthy subteam.
Spook
Make all powerarmours have a special ability besides just a skill boost?
Yes, Yes and thrice an orgasmic YES !
(5 stars)
Clownst0pper
26-10-03, 21:01
and then i think there should be Phase cloakers, that makes one partially invisible or hard to target, this would make hitting the spy more difficult, he would be vunrable to AOE of course but dirrect fire weapons would have a much less chance of hitting him. with different levels of course.
Love that idea :lol:
I love all the ideas on SpyvsSpy's post. =)
Clownst0pper
27-10-03, 21:04
Still no word from Lexxuk or Rade?
Hmm, Lexxuk has probably been banned from the forums due to his APU nerf thread
hehe
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
this is the idea i said except that tanks should get it as there the ones who currently get screwed over because of stealth. if spys had it it would make snipers too powerfull
Clownst0pper
28-10-03, 02:05
this is the idea i said except that tanks should get it as there the ones who currently get screwed over because of stealth. if spys had it it would make snipers too powerfull
How on earth can it
A) Be anywhere near a tanks mind and technological capabilities
and
B) Make snipers too powerfull?
The idea behind thermal Vision / Stealth Sight is that it allows spies to track there movements, In keeping with the idea there 'spys' and the best stealthers/snipers. I fail to see how giving me the ability to see a cloaked runner but not attack him is an insane benefit?
And useful for a tank? Can you really imagine a dumb tank who has AOE having a Heat vision to find stealthed runners...Now that is too powerful....
I like the idea of making armor buildable like guns and such. Collect the rares....build the armor.....hope for slots. When you get slots, you can upgrade with different modules. Except armor will be different from guns. Instead of being able to get 5 slots.....armor can only get 2 (or 3) slots maximum. You then have the ability to choose from like 10 (or more) different modules. However, you will be able to change out the modules but it will take a long time to do even by uber consters....so people cant refit their armor during an op fight. The modules can be...night vision, thermal (takes up to slots but can see ppl through walls), anti-cloak lvl 1, anti-cloak lvl 2, anti-cloak lvl 3 (takes up 2 slots), targeting optics (+wep lore...but adds some negatives), advanced targeting optics (+more wep...but more negs), droner optics (reg/advanced), weapon stabalizer 1 (+r-c/p-c...adds negs), advanced wep stabalizer (+more r-c/p-c...adss more negs).
Frankly....the module possibilities are endless. You can even have mods that add certian resists. Or even a zoom module....let your minds run free!
The idea is basically being able to customive your own PA...
But I dont want to hi-jack...my thought are inspired/based on what clown said. Feel free to use what I said KK!!
PS-I think it would be best if the armor rares were easy to get....but slots are actauly difficult to get.
*bump*
I want to hear more ideas....
We are onto something good I think
Careful man...bumping usually draws the Mod's ire.
That being said, I love this idea. Maybe make it such that you can see stealthers up to 100m away, and if you get within ... say ... 25 tor 35m of them you can actually target and hit them. I think that would make spies needed as they would become the stealth-killers.
Another idea, drawing off of what Spy vs. Spy said is if it's an interface to the armor, you couldn't use it while stealthed yourself, so that would be quite balancing IMO.
--Stryfe
Shadow Dancer
03-11-03, 08:36
I think ppus should get it.
None of this matters unless they change the engine to let us see distances or use zoom to "move" the clipping plane. Right now zoom only serves to give someone a bigger hitbox, it doesn't let you see further. Fog? Fog just causes things to be invisible, it doesn't change your range - I can shoot just as far when it's foggy as when it isn't, the only difference is that I have a harder time finding my target.
Nightvision, thermal, zoom, whatever - fix it so I can see a Warbot from 2000 meters instead of the 1000m or less visible "range" we have now.
DigestiveBiscui
03-11-03, 09:43
if its gonna be done its gotta be done right
The only thing i would say to do is only let it be used when the spy is un-cloaked. It will be pathetic if u have an obliterator spy cloaking constantly to see where everyone is in stealth
If you have to be uncloaked then it might require at least some skill not to die when looking
Clownst0pper
03-11-03, 09:44
None of this matters unless they change the engine to let us see distances or use zoom to "move" the clipping plane. Right now zoom only serves to give someone a bigger hitbox, it doesn't let you see further. Fog? Fog just causes things to be invisible, it doesn't change your range - I can shoot just as far when it's foggy as when it isn't, the only difference is that I have a harder time finding my target.
TBH, you wouldnt need a massive range to see stealthers as I intended it to be a short range item. Although I would like to see the clipping range increased!
*bump*
Careful man...bumping usually draws the Mod's ire
Why would a mod care....this thread has five stars and its doing nothing but incouraging creativity. Anway....
Would it be possible for KK to change the kill range from 1000m to something higher? Or would that require big engine changes?
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