[Brainport] HEALS: A solution that can help balance the dependancy on them

[KramerTheWeird]

Many people ask why ppu's are so powerful and we depend on them so much. They have incredible defensive abilities of course. But with all the defense in the world, you will eventually die if you can't be healed, and the heals are the core element of a ppu that make them so sought after I believe. Additionally, their heals are so superior in respect to ones other classes have access to (tech level 3 basic heal) that no one ever considers a heal outside of theirs. The ressurection is only the failure of a heal not doing it's job basically, and shelters/deflectors are the ways to help the heal do it's job better.

Most importantly, heals take the limitations of a classes resists and health and make them obsolete. This is a main reason apu's make a great combination with ppu's, although they have less resists and health than a tank, they can generally perform just as well with a proper heal on them because the heal works just the same, and shelters and deflectors at high levels reduce damage to almost comparable levels for every class.

After seeing this I have come up with a possible solution to help. What if heals were dependant on the health and resists of a class?

The way I propose to do this is to scale heals based on percents.

The three heals, normal, blessed and holy, can heal a total percentage of a targets' health and use this as a basis per heal second.

A target has 300 health. Heals last 15 seconds, if the heal was scaled to 50% of the total health of the target at it's capped level, then it would heal 10 health each second, up to 150 health total. This simple formula would apply for the total health of the target, and would be the same if they had 10 remaning health or 290 remaining.

Using the same example, with the heal doing 100% of the total health of the target, this would result in 20 health per second. Say a target has 600 total health, and the heal is rated at 50% total health, then this means it will do the same as the one with 100% would do to a target with 300 health, as in 20 health per second, over 15 seconds.

This means that classes naturally capable in CON would be as endurable as this class balance was originally intended for them. It would make monks easier to kill and tanks more resistant to punishment, without reducing their resists. It would allow better experimentation of finding a proper balance of total body health over resists.

A heal is your savior but it should work within the CON capabilities of your class, allowing more diversity in class balance as well as a spreading out of the importance of classes, compared to the seemingly focused view of monks now.

[Kasumi]

Not a bad idea at all! Anything to help make PPUs no so invincible! Unfortunately no one cares about anything important like this because there to self centered to care. All people want is something to complain about. With ideas it ruins there ability to complain, so if they cant complain they why would they be up for such a great idea?

[KramerTheWeird]

oh right I forgot



OMG NERF PPU AND APU AND DRONERS OMG HAX

[Duder]

Good idea Kramer, but im afraid someone will say "WHAT ABOUT MC5??????".

[Garet]

Again I will say what I intend to say on all these PPU's screw combat posts.

PPU's screw combat ONLY because there are so few of us around.

NEOCRON HAS ONE MAJOR PROBLEM, ITS THE SAME PROBLEM ITS ALLWAYS HAD, AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE SITUATION IS NOT GOING TO IMPROVE.

There are FAR TO FEW PEOPLE PLAYING NC.

The game CAN NEVER WORK PROPERLY NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO TO NERF VARIOUS CHARACTER CLASSES IN THE GAME BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE PLAYING TO SUSTAIN MORE THAN A HANDFULL OF PROPER CLANS IN EACH SERVER.

[CryptoChronic]

what about mc5????????????????????????

[Candaman]

Won't this just make peope have +500 hlt just so they get more from a heal?

[Dazist]

I've seen many great and not so great ideas how to balance ppus. I think this is one of those great ones.

[Duder]

Originally posted by CryptoChronic
what about mc5????????????????????????

OGMOMG WE CANT SOLO MC5 WITH MY PPU NOW OMGOHNOZ THIS IDERA SUCKS LOL


Héh id like this heal change but my idea of just nerfing the standard heals 50% when casted to someone else then yourself is much easier to fix...

[KramerTheWeird]

garet...


.
.
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Please read a post before you reply to it. This would not screw ppu's. If you do believe so, can you please explain to me why?


About mc5, it could be adjusted, as it is now mc5 is exclusive to only a handful of classes anyway. Having healing changes like this wouldn't change that. Also, heal sanctums could be static like how they are now.



Originally posted by Candaman
Won't this just make peope have +500 hlt just so they get more from a heal?

Yes it could, however their resists will suffer, and they would effectively get less out of the heal that way.

[evs]

or you could do it as follows:


heal = CON*2/10 per second
blessed = CON*4/10 per second
holy = CON*6/10 per second

examples:

Heal on 25 CON = 5/sec
Heal on 50 CON = 10/sec
Heal on 75 CON = 15/sec
Heal on 100 CON = 20/sec

Blessed on 25 CON = 10/sec
Blessed on 50 CON = 20/sec
Blessed on 75 CON =30/sec
Blessed on 100 CON = 40/sec

Holy on 25 CON = 15/sec
Holy on 50 CON = 30/sec
Holy on 75 CON = 45/sec
Holy on 100 CON = 60/sec

That would probably be @ max spell cap as well.
ppu's selfcast could probably be 125% of that.

But yes, the more 'robust' classes would now be more robust as needed.

[Kazper]

my idea for heals was making it a one time 'heal', not a 15 second 'heal over time', while remaining just as efficient, i just think one of the things that made hybrids so good and what makes PPU's so good now is they could cast heal once every 15 seconds and in between parashock/dboost/HL, if they made it so PPU's had to concentrate more on healing this would help balance things out, oh and hybrids wouldn't have needed to be nerfed =)


your idea is good too, and probably more realistic to implement with the small amount of coders

[Garet]

hehe not saying this would screw PPU's.

Not going to say it wouldnt hurt them iether. I am just pointing out that the major probs in NC are NOT down to any psi spell or character class. They are down to a lack of a decent player base in NC and also down to a fact a lot of people have not yet cottoned on to.

NC is about TEAM work. Get your team working properly together and you can kick ass..Its that simple.

[KramerTheWeird]

If you had read what I said, which I guess you didn't still, then you would see that heals themselves at the momment reduce that team work and diversity of class by giving classes a secure and effective way to prevent damage on an equal level, no matter the classes resistances, health or setup. This means the frailer classes with more powerful weapons, apu psi monks, benefit much more with the same heal a tank recieves.

The purpose is to, like evs put it, to make the robust classes more robust. Tanks should be a forward offense because of their exceptional resistance to damage, but heals dumb down defense across the board, making an apu just as effective for the front line, who end up doing more damage, even if they may be balanced outside of the heals and shelters/defs gaven to them compared to a tank.

Do you understand now?

[Shadow Dancer]

Horrible idea. 1 star.

[Heavyporker]

Mulling over this, the idea sounds rather "fair", but it might not really work with how things really go in-game...

How about something that takes both CON and total HLT in account, that way, someone who took the effort to spec for HLT still gets a bit more benefit from a heal even though their CON is low for their level ( remember the spies and monks).

And the heal forumlas that people presented doesnt take the heal levels into account.

I want to see separate formulas for TL3 heal, Blessed Heal, and Holy Heal.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Horrible idea. 1 star.

+1

Sorry mate, I don't want to nerf the PPUs. I don't think that heal, shelter, deflector etc....needs to be worked on. Only parashock, damage boost, and resserection, and resserection only needs a counter spell (imo).

[Garet]

Ok..couple of things...

FIRST. Heal doesnt make classes equal. Only a tank has a hope in hell of outhealing dmg when sheltered. Get a tank to stand still fully sheltered and with heal on and an APU HL'ing him and it will take farrrr longer to kill him than an APU similarily buffed and healed.

2nd. NONE of the PPU spells need to be changed. You said it yourseld ghandisfury. Resurection could use a Counter spell ....Maybe (dont really think so but maybe) BUT para, d-boost....They ALLLLREADY HAVE COUNTER spells. ALL PPU d-boosts and shocked can be countered iether by drugs or by another PPU. WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE THINK DMG BLOCKER AND ANTI PARA ARE FOR??.

lol...sorry but sooo sick of nerf the PPU threads.....no one moans when they have a PPU on there side.

BTW anyone that thinks APU's can stand on the front line in an op war has obviously failed to see how easily a PPU falls down regardless of heal, and they have obviously never noticed just how much harder it is to win an op war when you dont have any tanks in the mix. ONLY a tank can outheal dmg enough to survive for any length of time on the frontline.

[KramerTheWeird]

Thanks for your well constructed reasonings for it being a horrible idea, shadow dancer. Of course if anyone argues against what you think how the game should be it's always wrong anyway.

Using a counter ressurection spell would just boost apu dependance furthur, so I don't know if that's quite a good idea.

Evs suggested scaling it to CON, which may be a better solution than to body health. A tank can stand still and outheal but an apu has much better speed, deployment of attack and overall damage output, and they can evade attacks easier as well. Any tank or monk in their right mind would run if they were taking enough damage, which gives them a chance to heal when they're not being attacked. Since apu's have less health then tanks, this means they recover faster because there is less health to heal overall.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Troll
Thanks for your well constructed reasonings for it being a horrible idea, shadow dancer.



lol i'm so sorry, did I hurt your widdle feelings by not liking your idea?


poor baby.


:rolleyes:


I don't think all ideas "are wrong", but thanks for assuming. I'm so sorry I found your idea to be a piece of crap instead of kissing your feet and giving you hugs because of the "genius" of it.

kthx



Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Of course if anyone argues against what you think how the game should be it's always wrong anyway.



Btw this is a stupid statement. All the times me and you have disagreed, you thought I was wrong and I thought you were wrong. What's the big deal? Obviously you won't disagree with soemone if you think their idea is right. :rolleyes:

[Kenjuten]

mroo... =\

Come on pimpsters, it's all good. :D

[KramerTheWeird]

no.






Here's the difference.



I say you're wrong, I give my reasons.
You say I'm wrong, I ask why, you call me a troll, or an idiot, or any other countless things you've used as "arguments".

[SovKhan]

Do people read. direct all ppu threads up top. im so sick of reading about PPU threads.

[Kenjuten]

Well, one, this thread is a lot different than the standard 'nerf ppu' thread.. =\

Also, I believe this thread came about before that other thread you mentioned.

[KramerTheWeird]

Originally posted by SovKhan
Do people read. direct all ppu threads up top. im so sick of reading about PPU threads.

do people read? this is not a ppu thread. if it was I'd have directed it up top. heals can be obtained by other classes.

[ZigZag]

This is a well thought out idea - unlike most "solutions" Ive seen - if u want less monkacron - this will help. Def make it con related too.


Garret is right tanks are more able to take damage - but this would make them a preferable target to heal for the ppu and u might see more tanks in op wars then.

[\\Fényx//]

bwahaha


PIMP infighting, kick him kramer kick hiiimmmm :D


anyway, im not too sure on this idea, needs some more thinking through before i can decide if it's gonna benefit one class over another...

[Shadow Dancer]

I've thought about this alot lately and i just wanna say this is a fucking great idea. As you can see I changed my mind. Tanks' role as damage sponges dissapear in op wars because everyone can have 450+ HP and buffs with good resists. It would give the tank/ppu team a special advantage over apu/ppu team the same way an apu/ppu team has a special advantage(superior damage) over the tank/ppu team. It would make tanks a preferable choice at op wars still and it would still retain teh weakness of apus somewhat. Also it would make ppus not take so much damage. Last but certainly not least, it tones down the power of apu/ppu teams without nerfing the apu solo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank god, i'm sick and tired of people proposing apu nerfs not because of the apus by themselves but because of the ppu duo.



Now, i think this would be a great step in alleviating the problem of monkacron as well. Then we could remove paralyze, improve other classes support role in ways similar to this, and we might see a good solution to monkacron! :eek:


I wish I could change my vote on the poll, but alas.............

[dem0n]

nah nah nah.... it's wrong thinking but yeah I'm glad someone brought up the ppu heal module. In my opinion, heal, blessed heal and holy heal shuld heal the same, just with a faster rate. Thats the best thing we can do to make this world more fair.

[xkorpio]

Your idea makes sense because as long as I know the damage of a weapon on PvP is a % of you arctual health, so the heals should work in the same way.

5 stars by me

[deac]

haha good boy shad, this is really a GREAT idea!

nice work kramer 5 stars

[Lexxuk]

Hmm, I like this idea, with a few tweaks of course.

If you take the con stats of each class:

Tank 100
PE 65
Monk 45
Spy 0 :D

Now take how much each puts into "health" points itself

Tank 100
PE 75
Monk 50
Spy -50 :lol: (ok, so I cant remember Spy con points :p)

Now, if you worked out a math thing..

TL of spell * (con+health)

so, tank = 95 * 10000 = 950000

But, of course, we cant have that, its too high, so, tl * (con+hlt) / 1000 = 95 health every 5 seconds (assuming capped)

for a TL 3 heal...

3 * 10000 = 30000 / 1000 = 30 over 5 seconds (assumin capped)

For a monk

95 * (con+health "9025") /1000 = 9 every 5 seconds

Ok, so needs work, if you go con/hlt based, classes with low con suffer badly, whilst classes with high con dont suffer at all. But yeah, seems like a good idea, just need to work out how to work it without destroying heals.

/edit - had a better idea, 1/2 the dmg cap on PPU spells. current dmg is tl * ppu * dmg or something, 1/2 the dmg and u half the heal

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Using a counter ressurection spell would just boost apu dependance furthur, so I don't know if that's quite a good idea.

That's why you would give it to spies, or PEs, or tanks.....



Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
[Evs suggested scaling it to CON, which may be a better solution than to body health. A tank can stand still and outheal but an apu has much better speed, deployment of attack and overall damage output, and they can evade attacks easier as well. Any tank or monk in their right mind would run if they were taking enough damage, which gives them a chance to heal when they're not being attacked. Since apu's have less health then tanks, this means they recover faster because there is less health to heal overall.

This idea hurts all classes (especially the PPU) which is exactly what I don't want mate. There are only three spells that need to be "fixed"....heal is definetly not one of them. (imo)

[deac]

heals could work normal when self cast

[Zu (Pluto)]

Does anyone know the formula for how DoT works at the moment? In this instance I am thinking specifically fire damage, but I don't think we want to do it quite like that. But DoT (well, damage in general) is based on some combination of health and resists. If healing can become what is effectively a reverse DoT, maybe we can start from there and substitute variables to get a final total healing and healing rate that is good.

I had always found it weird that more heath seem to = bad in PvP because of how heal and damage don't work in the same way. I just feel that health gain and health loss should be based on the same principles.

Zu

[deac]

o0 stackable heals 0o !!

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Zu (Pluto)
Does anyone know the formula for how DoT works at the moment? In this instance I am thinking specifically fire damage, but I don't think we want to do it quite like that. But DoT (well, damage in general) is based on some combination of health and resists. If healing can become what is effectively a reverse DoT, maybe we can start from there and substitute variables to get a final total healing and healing rate that is good.

I had always found it weird that more heath seem to = bad in PvP because of how heal and damage don't work in the same way. I just feel that health gain and health loss should be based on the same principles.

Zu


More health isn't bad. The only way damage is % based is to prevent 1 shot kills. So it takes a MINIMUM of 3 shots from single-shot weapons to kill someone. So if you have 50 HP and I hit you with holy lightning, you'll take 25 damage. Then 12 damage, then death. If you have 500 HP then you'll take the standard damage from HL which is like 80-140 :p. But 99% of Pvp weapons are burst anyways. And burst/dot weapons ignore the rule. So other than that, more health is always a good thing.

[Zu (Pluto)]

Thanks for clearing that up, SD. Still don't know how damage works completely but one of these days it'll click and everyone on Pluto will fear me.

Still, it is a little weird I can take a few shots from those nasty sniper rifles and run away, whilst a CS will waste me in a burst or two. But I guess that's a completely different complication (maybe by introducing burst sniper rifles - nasty).

Zu

[Scikar]

I think it's a great idea. And Lexx, try not to get your maths wrong in future. 45 + 95 = 95 for a monk, which is correct, but 100 + 100 = 10000 for a tank is wrong.

The correct figures for your formula are:

TL 95 Holy Heal, Tank:

{95 * (100 + 100)} / 1000

= (95 * 200) / 1000

= 19000 / 1000 = 19 health over 5 seconds


TL 95 Holy Heal, Monk:

{95 * (45 + 55)} / 1000

= (95 * 95) / 1000 = 9 health over 5 seconds


TL 3 Heal, Tank:

{3 * (100 + 100)} / 1000

= (3 * 200) / 1000

= 600 / 1000 = 0.6 health every 5 seconds


TL 3 Heal, Monk:

{3 * (45 + 55)} / 1000

= (3 * 95) / 1000

= 285 / 1000 = 0.3 health every 5 seconds


Thus, we can see that the difference in heals is that tanks will heal approximately twice as fast as on monks, and considering the average tank with his 100 HLT and 100 CON gets 595 HP to the 45 CON 55 HLT monk's 300 HP (in other words tanks have twice as much HP), that works about pretty much spot on.

EDIT: Except of course, that the values are very low for all classes, but that's fairly easy to sort out. The main thing we can say for certain is thank God Lexx didn't write the hybrid nerf formula. :p

EDIT2: And also the difference between Holy Heal and TL3 Heal is that the Holy Heal is about 30x more effective than TL3 Heal, which is a bit steep.