View Full Version : Discussion Thread: PPUs and their spells....
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I've seen enough buddles of threads regarding this topic.
Thus created what will be know as PPUSmash™. From here on
unless otherwise stated by my superiors all threads regarding
nerfing PPUs, nerfing a spell of theirs, or their value in the game,
will be promptly closed and redirected here.
Forums rules will also apply here two times over. This is a hot
topic, be/try to be/pretend to be - adults about this.
We'll see how this works for sometime.
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Gungnir
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 01:26
I don't like this idea at all. Their are many facets to monk discussion. You can't just lump all discussions with the word monk, into one thread. Their are so many different angles. Some don't think their overpowered, some are only complaining about one spell, etc..........
Bah.
Gungir, do your "superiors" at least regard the current Monk imbalance a problem?
ghandisfury
23-10-03, 01:27
TANKS>>> The big problem with tanks is their defences. A well setup PE with shelter can have better defences than a tank if looked at 1vs1. Sure if you bring a PPU into the picture it's balanced, but let's leave a PPU out of the picture for now. IMO the way to fix the imbalnce with defences for tanks is lower the "damage cap number", remove damage cap, and make it a linear equation over 60 points in any con level. Meaning that a tank with 114 points in energy resists could have the same defence with 85 points in energy resist. However any increase in this stat from the 85 point range would still be effective. Meaning that if he put all points from con into energy resist he might take 5 points of damage from holy lightning but take 100 points of damage from a fire apoc. This would increase a tanks defences without significantly increasing any other classes defences.
SPIES>>> The problem with spies is the fact that they have no place or function in a battle. This is brought about mainly by the PPU, but let's leave him out of this for now. IMO a spie should get thermal vision that would aid in tracking down their spie adversaries. The SH should also be doubled in ROF. These are the only imbalance issues for spies. Their range is superior, and the have perfect defences (stealth).
PEs>>> No imbalance issues that I see, asside from the fact that they too have no place in OP wars. I would like to see them get a tool that would remove dead people from battle, thus giving them a function.
APUs>>> The biggest problem with APUs is their range. With the range so high their lack of defences is never brought into question. Max range on any weapon should be 200 meters. The other problem is the fact that the have access to good peircing defence. Solution is to remove heavy deflector belt. Damage and frequency is fine IMO.
PPUs>>> The problem is not the fact that they are hard to kill.....they_should_be_hard to kill. The problem is the fact that they can reduce your setup, remove your run speed, and that there is no counter for resserection. So, remove parashock, make damage boost have to stack as it does on mobs, and give PEs a weapon that removes dead bodies, and you've got their problem dicked as well.
So many people whine about the PPU (as they should), but do it for the wrong reasons. It's not the fact that they are hard to kill, or that they can ress under fire.....it's_those_three_spells that are the defining unbalance issues.
Anyway, take it for what you will...these are all opinions, and I've left PvP until these issues are fixed.
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Hmm, true shadow, I'll simmer it down to the two main themes
talked about on the forum then.
PPUs and Parashock
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Gungnir
Originally posted by ghandisfury
about the PPU (as they should), but do it for the wrong reasons. It's not the fact that they are hard to kill, or that they can ress under fire.....it's_those_three_spells that are the defining unbalance issues.
Exactly... i personally dunt see the probably with ANYCLASS BY IT SELF as unbalanced; however its the tools that they have access to that are unbalanced. kudos to the three spells...
ghandisfury
23-10-03, 01:34
Originally posted by Gungnir
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Hmm, true shadow, I'll simmer it down to the two main themes
talked about on the forum then.
PPUs and Parashock
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Gungnir
What about all of the other imbalance in NC? You see, so many people think that the PPU is imbalance and attack his sheilds/heals.....when it is not just PPUs, but the fact that monks_own_the game.....is this just a nerf the PPU thread, or is it a "help balance neocron"? Tell me what you consider this thread, and I'll post accordingly.
QuantumDelta
23-10-03, 01:44
I think a good and bad idea at the same time Gungnir, since people were spamming useless threads about parashock/ppus, however there were a few threads of decent and varied approachs to the problem...
I think I will try to explain this as comprehensively and unbiasedly as possible for once, a total coverage of everything and the reason most people dislike PPUs.
1.) Make all monks hybrid.
2.) Balance them to put them in line with the other classes.
3.) Remove parashock and freezer weapons completely from the game.
4.) Make higher TL spells override lower TL spells.
5.) Give spies the technological equivalent of resurrection so there is no single class that is more important than the others.
6.) Adjust the power of the mobs to reflect these changes.
This is the last PPU/Monk balancing thread I will post on ever again. I'm sick of discussing it, I'm sick of the people who think that everything is fine, and I'm sick of thinking that KK is ignoring our pleads for balance.
This is my idea, I have contributed a working solution to the problem. May you have the sense to use it, or something better.
I'm done discussing it.
ericdraven
23-10-03, 01:56
Ah, finally. Thanks. :)
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 01:57
Zokk I seriously doubt KK is ignoring us. I think their just taking their time to think up a thorough solution to try and satisfy as many people as possible.
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Listen, if you have any comment about PPUs worth a thread state
it here instead. Sure there are other situations with Neocron
yet to be addressed, but I'm not going to make a discussion
thread for each. Because right now, all I see on the forums
are 'NERF PPUS" "TAKE OUT PARA" threads.
Majority rules.
Saddly the forum doesnt have the greatest merging tool so this is
how it'll be. If you feel you've posted something that trully adds
salt to the situation then by all means re-post it here like
ghandisfury.
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Gungnir
ghandisfury
23-10-03, 02:10
Originally posted by Zokk
1.) Make all monks hybrid.
2.) Balance them to put them in line with the other classes.
Hybrids are balanced now....the way they are is the_only_way they will work.
Originally posted by Zokk
3.) Remove parashock and freezer weapons completely from the game.
Agreed....if anything esle is done, this needs to be.
Originally posted by Zokk
4.) Make higher TL spells override lower TL spells..
Hell no, if I can't watch over my buffs, then I deserve to die.
Originally posted by Zokk
5.) Give spies the technological equivalent of resurrection so there is no single class that is more important than the others.
All you are doing is making spies AND PPUs needed for the same thing. Make them valuable and usefull in other ways.
Originally posted by Zokk
6.) Adjust the power of the mobs to reflect these changes.
You would have to make the caves, and MC5 solo-able which is even_more_boring than it is now. The three unbalancing spells have been pointed out, fix them, don't nerf the PPU.
Originally posted by Zokk
I'm done discussing it.
I am sorry to hear this....you are one of the few who give valid discusion and usefull ideas to the situation. I hope to see you back.
KidWithStick
23-10-03, 02:12
remove teh holy paralaysis
or make it cost 200-280 mana to cast + reduce the stun effect from 80 to 50%
QuantumDelta
23-10-03, 02:16
When based on natural 1on1 situations...
The Maximum operational capacity of the PE (including drugs) is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the Tank.
In turn, the Maximum operational capacity of the Rifle Spy, is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the PE, or the Tank. (It's just that the tank doesn't REALLY need drugs to get close to this theoretical maximum).
The APU is mostly balanced with these classes at their operational maximum as well, it's Energy damage is very slightly too high, and it's Fire and Poison damage is too low, in ranged situations the APUs slight "Overpowered nature" is also visible.
Ignoring Parashock and Damage Boost for the time being, as soon as you introduce the PPU this happens;
APUs become the most powerful of all the classes(100%).
Tanks become the second most powerful of all the classes(90%).
Spies become the third most powerful of all the classes(80%).
PEs become the weakest(75%).
Please note APU and PPU are seperate classes for the purpose of this explanation, the reasoning for the above statements follows thusly;
PEs, who were previously balanced with the other classes, loses their defencive "advantage" from PSI, since Everyone has the same level of PSI defence, Natural CON, Armor defence, and Character Offence become the most important things available to the character itself.
APUs, who are naturally the weakest defencive character at their operational maximum (spies, stfu, this is true, if you think otherwise you NEED To go look at your character again), are naturally the strongest character in the game.
Their defence has just been boosted by 45% of whatever the remaining defence malus was between them and the 76% mark of all resists, Including Holy Heal they become very difficult to kill, and therefore due to their massive explosive damage become by far the most effective fighter to couple with a PPU.
Tanks, who are naturally(armor/con) the highest defencive character with good offence gain the defencive ground they would otherwise have lost on the PE / Spy due to their PSI.
This means that, if they could take advantage of their TSG/CS with holy heal running on them, they would be even more difficult to kill than an APU and would be able to naturally provide a LOT of damage output, though not quite as powerful as the APU.
Spies, who are naturally(traditionally) a defencively weak class that can actually drug for Shelter and use Deflector proficiently, lose the small PSI bonus they gained (drugging for shelter), on the tank, because of buffs, however still have a decently respectable arsenal of weaponry to use at high level (Disruptor, RoG, PE, RoLH, FL(...this is dependant on situation), and a few other of the good DEX Weapons), keeping them above the PE.
PEs, who are naturally average at defence(again CON/Armor), now totally cap out their resists in terms of the 76% rule, however, are still far exceeded by Tanks, and almost equalled by APUs(the main difference there being HLT), however, only have semi-respectable RoLH damage, Liberator, Pain Easer, Judge or RoG. ~ While RoG/RoLH/Liberator are respectable, Lib's aiming is bugged, RoG doesn't compete with CS when the defence of he characters is so close to equal, and RoLH is still too high a weapon to get the best stats on unless you're willing to make fairly drastic defencive cuts.
This means, that quite naturally, before Damage Boost or Parashock, or anything else is brought into the equation, PPUs make APUs the dominant class in the op fight.
The solution, is actually quite simple so long as you don't mind the fact that PPUs will ALWAYS be a benefit to the team no matter what...
25% self-heal malus for holy heal, 50% Malus on others.
Removal of Parashock.
Removal of Holy Cath Sanctum.
Boosting of Holy Cath (more usable).
Boosting of HAB (more usable).
Overridable buffs.
The loss of ability to rezz a corpse after 2-3minutes, unless the corpse is in a hunting zone.
PPU PA now gives no defence bonus at all, however gives better PPU bonuses.
Holy Deflector is weakened 25% on the PPU (n.b not accumalitive with the 50% malus on others).
edit;
I forgot, Hybrid Penalisation shouldn't be 30%, however 20-25% is a better option.
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 02:20
I want to talk about the source of the problem. IMO the source of the virus is the PPU monk. The PPU monk is the King chesspiece in PvP. You take him out, your team has won. If you don't have one, then your team is screwed. Sure it's possible for your team to win against a team with a PPU, but i'm talking about "realistic" viable pathways.
For example before the INT boost for monks, int wasn't "realisticly" cappable. Sure you COULD cap it, but i'm talking about realistic scenarios here. Of course I still think the int gain sux now, i mean seriously it's our SECONDARY skill. But anyways, that's a whole different kettle of something.
The problem here, is that PPUs are like freezer weapons. You needed one, because your enemy had one. PPUs offer such a super extraordinary advantage that you can't POSSIBLY go to an op war without one because you know if your enemy has one that you are screwed! They are the single most important character in an op war. This brings me to apus. Apus by themselves are no where near as unbalanced as ppus. I mean think about it, if you went to an op war without ppus and the other side had an apu and you didn't, woould you think "omgmogmogmogmo we're so dead MOGMOGMOGMOGM" no of course not. However, KK gave apus the only "realistic" means of taking down a PPU. So although I commend KK for wanting to give apus a support role, they simply further imbalanced monks for PvP. Now it's not just PPUs you need, but apus. And depending on how many ppus the enemy has too.
There's another thing too. But, although I don't think apus are overpowered(aside from range) I'm starting to think apu/ppu combo is overpowered, due to the apu's "disadvantage" being completely negated. But that's a different subject as well.
As you can see, PvP has turned into monkacron. I have tons of pics where i'm at an op war and me and the enemy have like 5 trillian monks. It's rediculous. You don't NEED spies, pes, or tanks. Sure they can help, sure they CAN be useful, but unlike the ppu you don't NEED spies pe or tanks. An apu can provide the firepower you need, as well as the ability to take down the enemy ppu. And then you NEED a ppu, and you're set.
This isn't right. It also fucks up the PvP fun for people who don't have a ppu or have access to one. "omg w00t let's go to pepper park and fight" "fuck, they brought a ppu, fuck he's ressing, ahhh nvm let's go"
I'm sure you guys know what i'm talking about. And i've been on both sides of the "love/hate" war on PPUs. Trust me I have.
There have been times when me and Kramer(on his ppu) totally decimate an entire enemy team, and he paralyzes and dbs the ppu and I holy antibuff and slaughter him. Then we take care of the rest of the team. Glorious teamwork, and I think "damn this is fun". Those are one of the rares times when I like ppus.
Then there are times when I'm gearing up for an op war and i'm totally ready to kick ass, and i have other clanmates ready, but no ppu is online so we can't fight.
:rolleyes:
Or when i'm at pepper park and kill someone and a ppu comes and reses and I can't stop him byself.
Or when the enemy LITERALLY has 5-6 ppus and a large team and my team ahs ONE ppu and the disadvantage is super enormous.
Or when i'm wandering with a hunting party, without ppu, and we meet an enemy huntign party with a PPU, and i get paraspammed and die in 2 secs kuz of no shelter or heal while the enemy has one.
And I can understand why ppus won't see this as a problem, BECAUSE THEY ARE A PPU!!!! I never say "we need an apu" because I AM an apu. And have skillz when it comes to killing PPUs. errr, i don't wanna sound egotistical there. :p
The thing is, i'm not selfish. I don't want only the ppus or the people with ppus to have fun. I want EVERYONE to have fun. I want EVERY CLASS to be useful. Yes there is a point to my rant keep reading, :p.
I don't see how ppus can be balanced so that they are not needed the way they are needed now, without destroying them or completely changing them. I want to be able to go to a farking op war without needing a PPU ffs. As long as they have no offense, they will use any and every excuse to justify having such a dominant role in PvP.
So I a solution, pretty radical so please listen.
SOLUTION
Make ALL monks Hybrids
Forget about pures, make the standard monk a hybrid. This is my opinion, and it has stayed unchanged for months. The problem with hybrids was never their offense, it was THEIR DEFENSE! I've always said "restrict hybrids from holy level buffs and you can balance them so much easier". The day KK implemented the hybrid penalization, I tested with sunrise in neofrag. He STILL had kick ass defense, because of holy shelter. THe only reason I really punctured it was because of his bad healing, but even then it was tough. The reason most hybrids don't do the holy hybrid routine anymore is because your offense will be BEYOND horrible.
So my PLAN would be this..................
1.Make all monks hybrids
2.Remove Holy Heal/Shelter
3.Lower the damage percent max on spells BACK to 376%.
4.Remove parashock
5.Give them run/casting
6.Make Shields Self Cast.
7.Make an INT based Healing skill.
8.Give Everyone in PvP a health boost, OR reduce damage for EVERY weapon by a certain amount. (optional, and yes i'll explain)
I've already covered 1 and 2. Lowering the damage percent back ensure you don't get hybrids with uber holy lightning and uber damage boost uberizing their opponents with 349303904 damage, lol. Also bless heal with 576% is still pretty uber. After doing this I seriously doubt they will be unbalanced, if they are KK could just still tweak the bless shelter spell or bless heal spell until they are. But I assure you they would be nothing like hybrids "of old".
For #4, simply put freezers have no place in a fps/rpg MMORPG, also you can't have someone with offense using any type of powerful freezer.
For #5, i didn't go bless shelter hybrid way back in the days because it wasn't powerful enough to support "turret" combat, I would die quickly. Besides everyone can run and shoot.
For #6, making shields self/cast means that they can only give that defense to themselves, and you won't be screwed if the enemy has a monk well because.......their just another fighter lol. A balanced one. :o
For #7, make an int based healing skill. Even though shields will be self/cast, hybrids will be able to healzor. So, I suggest making an INT based healing skill(called whatever) that also takes dex into account for the formula. That way some pes and spies will make use of it. Now you have "healers" spread across 3 classes, and no ONE class will dominate PvP in terms of importance. Also this will make some pes and spies needed in combat, OMGMOMOGOMGOM A NON MONK NEEDED! :p Imagine saying "We got any healers? Divide? Rade? Cool that's 2, let's go take Redrock". Imagine that! Also, it doesn't make sense that in teh future only PSI monks have the ability of good healing. IMO at least.
For #8, alot of people say that PPUs make PvP longer. Will I already discussed the healing aspect. But if people in general don't live longer, you could either reduce all weapon damage by a bit, or give everyone a proportionate health boost. Or leave it as it is. I mean there won't be apus or ppus, hybrids, pes, and tanks will have good defense and could be healed by their mates, so I don't think #8 will be needed. Btw i'm picturing spies as snipers here, because I don't think pistol spies are "realisticly" viable. Of course I could be wrong about that, and would love to be proven wrong.
Effectively this FIRST solution will remove pure monks from teh equation as their won't be holy shelter or high level holy heal, AND holy lightning max will be a mere 376%. Although I do think apus can be balanced now, I don't think PPUs can, so for the sake of OVERALL balance I think the apu class should be "sacrificed". And trust me I fucking love apu.
You may not agree with my entire "plan", but I hope you agree with making all monks hybrids so that they won't be "super needed" in anyway, they'll just be another balanced class that can be useful but won't dictate the outcome of an op war by themselves.
Oh and KK could take away the negative apu/ppu for PA and hybrids could choose which side of the "force" they wanna enhance.
Ok, remember when I said I don't see ppus being balanced without destroying them or totally reworking them? Well if you have any ideas, please submit :p.
Here are 2 more solutions I have.
SOLUTION#2
What I think is that the ppu should have sucky defense, but he should have a way of transfering the damage he recieves to his teammates. And tanks, as a bonus, could recieve half of the damage. That way even though ppus would need simply ANYONE to spread their damage through, it would be more favorable of them to use tanks.
Let's say there's an apu/ppu team. No longer will they obliterate entire armies, :rolleyes: , they simply "share" damage. That's the way I think it should be. Like if you hit the ppu for 70 damage, he would take 35 and the apu would take 35. If it's 3 people, the damage would be spread across all 3. Now as a bonus, the tank would recieve half of that. So maybe if it's tank/ppu and the ppu gets hit for 70 damage, the ppu would recieve 35 and the tank would recieve 12. That way apu/ppu would still be badass because of ppu's healing and the apu's offense. But the tank would have a "different" advantage as well.
With this approach as well, the ppu could maybe gain levitate, teleport, or some other type of escape spell.
Here's a third solution I propose
SOLUTION#3
Why not give each class a method of fighting ppus specifically? I really see nothing that justifies the ppu's outrageous defense. Even with all the apus now, the ppu still does his job effectively buffing his entire team etc.....
You can give a anti-deflector tool to pes/spies. Take away antidefletor from apus then. You could make melee weapons bypass buffs. I don't know about HC tanks, maybe they could get a weapon too. Or maybe just improve their AOE to obscene levels.
That way the ppu can retain most of his ability(paralyze would need to be taken away still).
I prefer solution #2.
QuantumDelta
23-10-03, 02:22
Out of yours, my PE would love solution 1.
You forgot to add Holy Deflector as well.
Also to accomodate this all mobs would need a damage nerf of course.
option 2 and 3 are not really options imo....
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 02:25
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Out of yours, my PE would love solution 1.
You forgot to add Holy Deflector as well.
It's implied.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
option 2 and 3 are not really options imo....
Why not?
QuantumDelta
23-10-03, 02:29
2 would make almost all of the current PPUs complain more than 1....
3 would be very VERY difficult to balance...
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 02:32
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
2 would make almost all of the current PPUs complain more than 1....
O_O
y? They wouldn't like depending on other people the same way those people depend on them, for once in their life? lol
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
3 would be very VERY difficult to balance...
I don't think it'll be that hard. Besides, it actually keeps the ppu class intact, isn't that what they want?
Originally posted by KidWithStick
remove teh holy paralaysis
or make it cost 200-280 mana to cast + reduce the stun effect from 80 to 50%
I agree.....
Also..
Boost other classes by giving them tools(weapons) to deal with PPU's.....
If PPU's get completely nerfed, how are we going to do Cave/MC5 runs with the insane damage the mobs there do?
I'm still undecided as to my position on ressurection....
QuantumDelta
23-10-03, 03:03
Originally posted by Spoon
I agree.....
Also..
Boost other classes by giving them tools(weapons) to deal with PPU's.....
If PPU's get completely nerfed, how are we going to do Cave/MC5 runs with the insane damage the mobs there do?
I'm still undecided as to my position on ressurection.... Do it my way and you can reduce mob damage the same way they increased mob damage not long ago.
*Shrugs* :p
I agree with Kid With Stick.. Para is the problem... NERF that a lot and u will sort a lot of the complaining.
But spoon Cave runs are easy solo as N E class, i got my spy to Disrupter from pain easer SOLOing the TG caves.
I don't like the idea that all monks are hybrid at all, not all monks wantto be hybrid. I didn't like hybrids being totally destroyed and having to lom to PPU, but on the other hand i don't want to be totally destroyd AGAIN and have to start playing a totally different way again. That was what my spy was made for.
ghandisfury
23-10-03, 03:10
Why do you want to nerf the PPU? Why do you want to make it harder for you to level, get MC5 parts.....etc? Instead of a nerf, why not just deal with the three inbalancing issues? (parashock, damage boost, and resserection). BTW shadow, all of your suggestions demand a complete rework, not only that but I believe that there is_no_way to balance hybrids.
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 03:14
Originally posted by ghandisfury
Why do you want to nerf the PPU? Why do you want to make it harder for you to level, get MC5 parts.....etc? Instead of a nerf, why not just deal with the three inbalancing issues? (parashock, damage boost, and resserection).
Depends on what you feel the problem is. Monkacron will still be here. That won't change. PPUs will still have a tremendous impact on pvp to the point where the enemy will NEED one. Apus will still be the only ones who can take out the most important char in a team battle.
Balancign those 3 spells is good, but it certainly isn't fixing the root of the problem. IMO.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
BTW shadow, all of your suggestions demand a complete rework, not only that but I believe that there is_no_way to balance hybrids.
Yes, the ppu class is too fucked up now. It NEEDS a complete rework IMO. I do believe hybrids can be balanced. KK kept nerfing the offensive power of hybrids, but the defense was always uber. Even now a hybrid can have kick ass defense and gimp offense and win through a long ass duel. That's because I suspect holy shelter has a "base" protection it provides no matter how low your damage percent on the spell. IMO holy buffs being removed and bless buffs being tweaked can balance hybrids.
MayhemMike
23-10-03, 03:49
Holy para is the only thing that chaps my ass
CryptoChronic
23-10-03, 03:52
whats a buddle?
CryptoChronic
23-10-03, 04:37
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Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Zokk I seriously doubt KK is ignoring us. I think their just taking their time to think up a thorough solution to try and satisfy as many people as possible. ... and then overdo the implementation by 175% :D
Make there sheilds self cast only and take out holy para.
They can still dmg boost, heal, dish out lvl 3 boosters remove dmg boost and poision stacks.
-=Blasehase=-
23-10-03, 05:14
Originally posted by Gungnir
all I see on the forums
are 'NERF PPUS" "TAKE OUT PARA" threads.
hum... bcause many ppl find out that it MUST be changed?
if only 1 person thinks that there is an inbalance KK do nothing... but if MANY ppl think that... how should they bring KK to make that different like yet when dey all post in 1 thread?
this thread get spammed like the others... [mainly from monks who dont want to be nerfed]
an this thread will die like the others...
but KK do nothing...
why?
why they dont play the game... so they dont see those inbalance
a blind man see this... but KK dont...
what tell us that about KK?
i think i shouldnt write more... bcus then i get a bann like everytime when i see that they do wrong and say that to them
the last i REPORT A EXPLOIT... and get a perma bann.... for 7 days:rolleyes:
Who said KK haven't heard?
Loads od ppl argued Hybrids were overpowered.. They got destroyed and stopped a lot of fun being played in the game.
Now people are complaining PPUs are over powered, something will be done I'm sure. But like everything else that changes, i bet is far more drastic change than that, that was needed.
slaughteruall
23-10-03, 07:03
OK first things first think about what your doing. If you remove Holy Para melee tanks will own NC. They move fast as hell and do nice dmg. And also Holy para works nicely to help kill the other PPU. Or have you not noticed? It does need to be balanced lower ROF and a slight increase in the cost of the spell. Remove carth sactum do you also realize that a PPU is very weak WHILE casting this spell because of the ROF/PSI cost of the spell. So you up your PPW to help with that whitch lowers your PPU making your spells a little weaker (really only group shelt/def).
If you remove Holy para it will lead to more nerfs. Or do you not know that also. You can't nerf one thing and not in turn have to nerf something else because now it is over powered. Which will happen if you remove Holy para Melee Tanks will own. Most people dont look at the big picture or just hate monks so much they really dont care just want to nerf them more.
Slaughter
And yes i have a tank/APU/PPU/PE and a spy. Some of you people should do some research before you post stuff. This is my first and last post on a nerf this or that about PPU's/APU's.
Original monk
23-10-03, 09:04
I gonna keep it short for now, keep the paralysis ingame and do not nerf the ppu or it will end where the hybrid is now.
In the old times everybody had a decent freezer, but because people complained they nerfed every cannon, rifle and pistolfreezers, and they gave the freezing ability to 1 specific char, the ppu monk. Now again people are complaining (read they make a anti-ppu, anti-para quest, with again refferentions in their sig, like with the hybrid and with the "boost" of the libby).
I hear a gm saying, majority wins, but i dont think everyone on this forum ever played a ppu ... also i dont think that everyone that plays ingame has a forum account, so i dont think this forum is a good representation of the gameservers. Also you have the crackposters: the people that dont do anything else then post threads, some of em have big influences on this forum, especially because neocron has a never seen amount of sheep following the one that yells the hardest, sadly enough.
The only exception i see regarding parashock is the melleetank, they shouldnt have full immunity but their suit must protect em for a great part against paralysis (around 70% less effect or so on em) because this class is only dependent on their agility and runspeed, and no i dont count a pistolwielding pe with this, they have more then enough and even can stealth away and damageboost ....
this is it fo now, more for a 100% sure to follow
good luck and cu online.
ps: is this fixed thread a good idea ? YES because it keeps the forum clean and NO because it will never give an honest view on how the ppu is ingame because of all the exagurating by people that never casted a holy heal in their lives ...
Richard Slade
23-10-03, 09:12
Well if this is where we whine now, here's my part of it
"Well this game is, as said, monkocron now
Remove the PPU's
Yup you heard me
Instead make specialized APU's
Fire, Energy, Poison
And let them all be able to rezz
That's the only thing I like about monkeys
Rezzing
Other than that, ppl can manage themself damnit!
Every single class and char can use atleast a heal and at times a defl
We don't need the rest.
Up the steel skin to 50% and do some armor twitching
The rest is solved
Now the monkeys will do INSANE dmg but won't survive long
(yes they should NOT be able to use more PPU spells than a tank)
And also they won't be doing fire then poison then friggin energy
(see any other char do all types of dmg?!)
Instead they should have a good variety of spells made for those
dmg types
(Who wouldn't want to se Acid Storm rain down one the world
or a Fire Apocalypse scorch the world, seriously)"
[Edit] And I have a PPU monkey with full cap except for the 0 dex :D
So noone come tell me I haven't casted a para or holy heal in my life.
posted this once b4, got washed over as it was on someone elses post... what do yu guys make of this
this APU/PPU monk thingy is becoming a problem..... but i have thought of a suggestion..... Keep the monks as they are... theres no problem for monks being as powerful as they are(except parashock i rekon give them a stealth that burns down their mana pool to keep them stealthed (no boosters)) ... thinking about it, however
The strength of PSI is dependant upon Genetic fluke, therefore a STRONG PSI user would be based upon a % chance.
So if this is the case then they should make all the other classes selectable, but make the PSI monk selectable ONLY if they 'roll' their % chance to make a monk.
It should be dependant upon Population number of the server
e.g. if there are a 100 ppl on the server when yu make yur character (for the first time mebbie otherwise yu'd get a BAZZILLION REROLLS) and yu say that its 5% of the population then 5 lucky people will become Monks, then they become wanted and sought after character s as theyre quite powerful. maybe there should be a Monk cap like
---****WARNING DODGY MATHS****....
Percentage chance = 5%(population) - (no of monks)
therefore if there were 100 ppl online and 1 of them were a monk then
% chance = 5%(100) - 1
% chance = 5 - 1
% chance = 4% chance to become a monk
tho for this to truely work a new server would have to be made, or reset the current ones or something...
ALSO (2 threads i have done on our boards tacked together)
damage boost is not a real issue, dont really bother me when it hits me... i just have to move better/faster.... But when coupled with Parashock, then its an issue
so (as stated above) give them a steath ability that lasts for the length of their mana pool permits (a kin to stamina when yu sprint) make it the same regs as paraspam no worries... however to combat this lets give each class something special in return (APU's DONT need shit, i am one, theres nothing i want apart to cap my int )
BUT to make other classes have a use lets give them the following
PE's - Corpse dispersion tool
The corpse dispersion tool should be based on pure TC and be like a hack tool, yu gotta get it out to use.... and make it dependant upon skill vs soul light and what it does is remove the Flesh of the body leaving just the skeleton , (So no Psychic flesh regeneration for Joo)
now that makes PE's have a use in op battles over just throwing bullets and dancing
For spys, give then a Corpse Reconsitition Tool, that does the complete opposite to a dead corpse so that they can get the characters rezzed but as its harder to create something than to destroy something, it requires more TC and INT
Now Spys have an extra use
Now for tanks...
an for tanks, a motion tracker (TC again + HC), so that when the stealthed PE/SPY/PPU is sniping and removing/making/rezzing it give them a rough estimate where the position of the stealthed character is(AS LONG AS THEY ARE MOVING) . make it so that its only in their forward 90 degree arc, 200 meter range and they have to have it selected as a tool, and just like the motion tracker in aliens it does esactly what it says on the tin... even picks up mobs if they move
hows that?
Originally posted by Judge
PPU monks:
They support the tanks and APUs.
Changes:
Make parashock not work in PvP, only PvM.
Decrease Heal effectiveness on others by 25%
Whilst ressurection takes place all Heals and Shelters on the PPU stop
PPUs are able to override lesser buffs and heals with higher TLs
I think that this would balance them out nicely.... also for the whole idea go here Class roles and balance (http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79594)
......
All I'm really seeing is reiteration.
Gungnir, I think you need an alternate solution, seriously.
Also, as far as I understood, I thought Nidhogg disapproved of this sorta thing? =x
P.S.: Yeah, I do understand the circumstances, still.......
Original monk
23-10-03, 09:48
parlysis pvm only ? yeah you would wish that, so ya have free play in killing that ppu, i dont mind being tl 3 healed and tl7 deflectored, as long as i can use my freeze to stop em with wathever they where trying to do so i can get away out of that uncomfortable situation.
A heal nerf also (so with the -50 % shelter etc that wasnt enough ?) well i will like my new nerfed heal when im fighting the commy :/ so whats next ? nerf the commander again ? ...
And the ressurection part is the most funny one, how do i gonna ressurect someone in mc5 when 4 copbots are shooting me ? without me having shelter and with a nerfed heal :/
Do you think i will rezzurect someone in PP when i loose my buffs when i do so ? no way, let em genrep away cause nobody has any use with a dead ppu, its the ppu that can swallow its pride when he dies, he can genrep away and get the pokes, no-one gonna rezz the ppu at the end, but everyone wonna be rezzed by the ppu... like someone stated before
Provide a good balance ?? when this kind of changes come true i lom APU (so first thats lomming from hybrid to PPU, then from PPU to APU :/ and recap again) like most of the ppu's, our healing and rezz and shelters and para is all we have, take that away and we die inside, bye bye ppu's, monk-o-cron ? nope: APU-o-cron yeah and then its gonna be the time to nerf the apu's and then the circle is round, until they boost every other char and then they gonna be underpowered again and so on ...
I am a PPU and i >Think parashock must go ist to bad and it s realy stubid.
(bad english ^^ )
MfG Susi
Shadow tht 1.000.000 word post back on the other page..
I wont quote it cos its simply 2 big.. But i totally agree with what you said..
I love being APU;) but its a damn shame to go to a war and decimate the enemy in like 3 secs.. or anywhere really.
Also the whole PPU.. Idea i love
Atm seems people ignored that post. But maybe go back and read it guys;)
some may like it some may not, I certainly do
Nice ideas m8:)
1.Make all monks hybridsi fully agree with this.. this would automaticly solve the solution off having both uber-defence/offence, cause you would have to sacrifice one for another
q: but how are you gonna force to have a minimum number off points in the "opposite" skill?
a: by adding a rule that would increase the "penalty" for having lesser skill points in the opposite skill
example:
100 ppu and 100 apu would be the best solution (15% lower damage)
200 ppu and 0 apu would totally nerf you damage (50% lower damage)
150 ppu and 50 apu wouldnt be to bad (25% lower damage)
2.Remove Holy Heal/Shelterfully agree with this
3.Lower the damage percent max on spells BACK to 376%agree with this too. this would still give reasonable damage but would prevent uberdamage
4.Remove parashockimo parashocks ruines pvp.. you can have a real good setup, but if someone parashocks you, well... then your doomed. pe's, spy's and melee tanks depend on the speed in close combat. nerfing their runspeed to hell and back would make them useless
5.Give them run/castingsounds fair to me.. if you nerf the damage then they should be able to cast (not 100% hit though, since other classes have to aim. somewhere around 75% would be better imo)
6.Make Shields Self Cast.good point, and even if this aint gonna happen then at least make the damage of shields on others then yourself 25%. (so you dont win "just because" you have shields and your opponents dont)
7.Make an INT based Healing skill.or make a new "healing kit tool" based on a main skill (int or dex)
8.Give Everyone in PvP a health boost, OR reduce damage for EVERY weapon by a certain amount. (optional, and yes i'll explain)i think the damage isnt that bad, applying the rules above would solve most problems and make pvp worth it again..
JustIn_Case
23-10-03, 10:54
Well the Monk situation all comes down to one thing...
We wanted Hybrids nerfed, and KK did. Problem is that it overpowered pures instead.
I like to se Hybrids usefull again (not overpowered) and Shadows idea isnt to bad.
And para must go, theres is only one weapon that kills you in one shot, and that is holy para.
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 10:57
IMHO the best tech way of countering the massive attraction of ressurection would be the following...
[list=1]
Change Implant to Medical Training (persevere with me ok?)
Add a remote med-kit tool like the poke tool but uses med kits as ammo (PEs best medics due to weight allowance and int levels)
Have a Crash Kit, essentially a defibrilator (spelling?) for rezzing ppl
[/list=1]
There are plenty of ways that it could be tweaked (maybe a psi booster equivalent of the med tool? dunno about this tho) but med-kits need to heal faster. Nice thing about meds is that they do heal ALOT o damage and they are cheap to make/clone.
I cant believe u KK - u aint learnt yet - honestly this game will never be 100% balanced for PvP and I am not a mmorpg player, except for NC - I play full time FPS, - u wont balance this game 100% unless u remove the monk class entirely.
Right now NC is the most balanced I have ever seen it and that is with over a year of playing and having played every class at fully capped level.
PPL say para removes pvp skill - try using PvP skill to negate it. (its not an issue to me)
The only thing I would support some nerfing of is resserruction. This also MUST be done in hunting zones and apply to all situations --- ppl too lazy now - I would like to see a limit on resses somehow or a weapon that can fizzle one usable by all gun users.
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 11:03
What about a Supression Field Generator? it generates a Supression Field that dampens Psionic abilities. Could be even added in an RP way. One of the factions (FA?) grows worried about the Chran Sect and develops the dampening field to counter their Psionic powers.
Vampire222
23-10-03, 11:35
problem is... and this is really true, spies would have the upperhand by FAR without paras, kill heal stealth....... snipe heal stealth.... etc..
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 11:49
There are ways round Spy snipers.
Tanks can eviscerate sniper spies fast due to their immense run-speed. With their good ground-speed, heavy armours and superior resists they can take several sniper-blasts before they are incapacitated.
PEs can use both deflector belts and deflector spells and with them they can stop tons of piercing damage (I learnt that from being on the recieving end of SHs and PEs regularly) and still give a good account for themselves. Don't forget that PEs can be snipers as well, albeit to a much lesser degree than the Spies. They also have decent armours and resists.
PPUs can take sniper ammo by the cabinet-full w/o loosing any mjor health due to their spells.
APUs are the only class that is vulnerable to snipers as all they can use are deflector belts. PPU spells kill their attack capabilities totally now.
As it is, the game is fairly well ballanced atm.
I didnt read all posts in here, but most has already been said in other threads.
All Monks Hybrid would be really boooooring and there would be no real variety to play a monk anymore. Also there are people out there that love to play a pure APU or a pure PPU. Dont you think alot of people would be pissed then?
What we need are only some little changes to make PvP enjoyable again and to not destroy whole classes. Some proposals are:
Nerf foreign casted heal spells like it was done to S&D.
Slightly reduce the range of APU Spells.
DB should work in PvP like it does in PvM !!!
Reduce the effect of Parashock or make the skill PSI-resist reducing that (and also other psi effects, but psidmg only very little or not at all).
Lower the cap of Resurrectionfrequency (to maybe 8/min). Remember that the nerf of foreign cast heals would take effect here then.
(Make the Stealthtool restricted to class SPY)
I really dont think that it is a good idea to introduce new anti-psi-things or other new stuff, that would only bring some more imbalance.
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 11:57
Reduce the effect of Parashock or make the skill PSI-resist reducing that (and also other psi effects, but psidmg only very little or not at all).
Making a resist for parashock would be pretty good actually. Am surprised it hasn't been mentioned before. Kudos to you, mehiic.
Maybe this is a little complex but what if Psi was split into elemental spheres?
So there would be:
Fire sphere - All flame spells
Lightning sphere - All lightning spells
Energy sphere - All Energy spells
Venom sphere - All Poison spells
Dunno if parashock should have a seperate sphere or if it should be grouped into energy tho.
Edit: forgot to add this bit. The sphere skills would be instead of APU (or in the case of parashock, PPU). Dunno how the PPU spells would be split into spheres though. Maybe by type? Healing, deflection, resistance boosters.
Original monk
23-10-03, 12:06
Is it yust me or is there no-one posting in favour off the ppu ?
All i hear is nerf nerf nerf, nerf PPU's from every possible side: from healing to rezzurection, removing parashock, i think if you people where all gamedevellopers we would all run around shooting eachother with catapults maybe trowing some stones or sumthing ...
Now i know why alot people left ... if schanulleke (aka foofur on the forum, shes a well known ppu on saturn) was still around she would be depressed by seeing all this nerftalk ...
Well if its like the GM said and the majority wins then i think the PPu has allready lost, in the opinion of most "sheep" (sheep as in following the big bunch) the PPU could best be completely removed. Some people even talking about a complete monk removal...
Well KK if ya keep nerfing and removing or killing classes where people have fun with playing, then i think you are trowing in youre own windows...
If you think that removing a spell or nerfing a class will balance this game .. then dream on .. and isnt balance the point ? you will yust create new inbalances ...
How do i know this ? because the hybrids owned this game and they nerfed them, and now we have a new problem: the ppu and apu monks, and why do i say those 2 and not only the ppu ? because the ppu keeps the apu in balance, remove/nerf the ppu and the apu will become yet another problem...
I know what most people on this forum want, they want that there PE owns all, but a PE is specialized in jack shit... As soon as the PE's take over then ya know this game and its balance is getting fucked up ....
btw: Why are the tanks still nerfed KK, why cant they get 3 stars ? isnt it a specialized class enough ??
Well, to be on the safe side i allready bought 200 passive psi use loms, i think this whole ppu stuff is a black page in neocron history, yust like the killing of hybrids was ...
When all this nerf-ideas come true i will certainly enjoy poisonbarreling pepper park for every split second i have the time, then lets see if ppus are still such a problem :)
But untill sumthing happens i stay to be the ppu that is there to help and heal people, and if you attack me, then you will be paralysed and DB'ed yeah otherwise, enjoy playing :P
good luck with youre nerfs people, dont think this game will change in a better direction when ya keep nerfing everything everyone, thats everytime when you full specialise in some sort of class that it gets nerfed so ya can move in the next class, till its nerfed again and so on,
I would like to hear TORN's opinion on this, because in my opinion he is the most powerfull ppu on saturn at this moment, he was a rolemodel for me and helped me out configuring my setup, if 1 person knows everything about PPU's and there weaknesses, balance-issues it must be him ...
*i yust sit back and watch the show*
edit: where the heck is scikar ? i saw shadow around in this thread but the biggest para-removal adept didnt posted yet, how is this possible ? :)
Originally posted by mehirc
(Make the Stealthtool restricted to class SPY)
I must say No to this.. PE's are a poor class as it is.. They need a new role within NC currently they have none.. part from the cool looking cyber punk class:confused:
Parashock:
Decrease the cast speed and ROF of parashock to that of antibuff.
Give anti para & dmg boost drugs a few seconds duration.
Death & Resurection:
Give death a decay rate, if your not rez'd within 5 minutes you cant be rez'd, your screen goes black and you have to gr.
Original monk
23-10-03, 12:22
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
So there would be:
Fire sphere - All flame spells
Lightning sphere - All lightning spells
Energy sphere - All Energy spells
Venom sphere - All Poison spells
this is a very good idea, maybe with corresponding colours in the power armours, so yellow is a firemonk, green is a poisonmonk etc...
dunno about the ppu setup then but i sure know that i aint gonna be a boostermonk giving boosts all day long :)
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 12:22
Original Monk, I dunno about everyone else but I am NOT saying "nerf the PPU". All i am saying is that due to their spells they are hard to kill (the fact that they can't kill anything sorta counters it) and the fact that an APU supported by a good PPU (which most of them are. They have to be good to be of any use) has ALL the benefits of a hybrid w/o ANY of the disadvantages.
The reason so many people are whining about this is because they have had a free ride for so long.
Oh, an about tanks not being able to hit ***. Only way i have ever managed that was when i gunned a RHINO.
Originally posted by mehirc
Nerf foreign casted heal spells like it was done to S&D.
Slightly reduce the range of APU Spells.
DB should work in PvP like it does in PvM !!!
Reduce the effect of Parashock or make the skill PSI-resist reducing that (and also other psi effects, but psidmg only very little or not at all).
Lower the cap of Resurrectionfrequency (to maybe 8/min). Remember that the nerf of foreign cast heals would take effect here then.
(Make the Stealthtool restricted to class SPY)
This sounds to be the right way to start fixing the Monk problem, sans the last option, since I see really no reason to take the stealth activator 1 away from PEs.
What should be avoided are too drastical reductions of Monk abilities. It would be wrong to destroy them completely, reducing foreign healing efficiency by 50% and lowering the range of APU spells a little are in my opinion the right way to go.
On the other hand, do something about the problem of PPU experiance. They need a chance to get more experiance, preferably by the usage of their spells.
This thread makes me wanna cry. I know that most people just want a few little tweaks here and there, but I just know PPUs are going to be destroyed if anything happens. I worked very long and hard on my PPU, and to see her turned into some gimpy piece of crap will pain me to no end. :(
Its as if PPU's have become Neocron's versions of lawyers. You hate us with a passion, but when you need us, suddenly we're your best friends.
Original monk
23-10-03, 12:37
cool aplha, i notice some brains :P
I think youre monk-idea is pretty intresting btw regardless off all this ppu/apu nerfage yelling around us, i think dividing the monks into spheres will create new ways of attack and defense, with other words it will make a change in the current monksystem that will offer new possibilities...
about the tanks: a whole way back in the beginning of retail a tank could have 3 stars witouth any rhino or anything, yust by being a pure hc tank, but then (after a week i had my 3 stars where i was so proud off) they nerfed tanks somehow, probably because of tank-o-cron and since then tanks are gimped in combat, even a PE's defence is better.
And a PA with a littlebit higher stats for tanks wont do the job btw :)
good luck in this jungle off monktalk :P
edit: @ lanigav the whore: you are feeling exactly the same as i do, put like loads of work in youre char to get gimped to dead at the end and forced by the makers of this game to change off class, yes thats painfull, it happend before and will happen again ... sadly enough
Originally posted by Lanigav
This thread makes me wanna cry. I know that most people just want a few little tweaks here and there, but I just know PPUs are going to be destroyed if anything happens.
The same thing worries me. This is something that needs to be done with care, the balancing. Also, something should be given to the PPUs in trade, like the before mentioned easier training.
Originally posted by Original monk
about the tanks: a whole way back in the beginning of retail a tank could have 3 stars witouth any rhino or anything, yust by being a pure hc tank, but then (after a week i had my 3 stars where i was so proud off) they nerfed tanks somehow, probably because of tank-o-cron and since then tanks are gimped in combat, even a PE's defence is better.
And a PA with a littlebit higher stats for tanks wont do the job btw :)
I do not think they "nerfed" the tanks, they just changed the way the combat ranks are calculated. Right now it seems a tank has a somewhat low rank for the damage he/she can dish out.
PS: Sorry for double posting. When I noticed my mistake I tried to merge both posts, but it did not let me.
Original monk
23-10-03, 12:48
yeah possibly they didnt nerf em (but indeed only lowered there rankcalculation) but a tank doesnt have alot of use anyway lately, the so called masters in combat run away like hell if they get 18 poisonstacks :) i hope they give us atleast 3 stars back :P
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 12:54
What gave me the idea for the spheres of attack was the fan-fiction piece, Opened Eyes, by MrBane in the Pluto RPG forum.
The idea that concentration on one particular area of APU rewards you with more damage is kinda appealing.
Would be good as well if the spell spheres countered each-other too.
As for PPU spheres, what about active and passive PPU?
Heals, dmg boosting, parashocking and rezzing = active (means that rezzers are not so immortal, you also don't get a parashock-mad PPU that everyone has to gang up on)
Boosting spells and deflectors/shelters = Passive (means that TRUE passives dedicate themselves to neither healing nor harming but DEFENDING!)
This would lead to a LOT more tactics in OP wars.
Original monk
23-10-03, 13:10
This all sounds ver appealing, the active passive monk and the countering of spell spheres sounds cool yeah :) maybe with a bit off tweakin KK can start making a fully new kind of monk. And yeah the active monk can be killed but can para you as a defence, and the passive monk is very hard to kill but cant para or DB you ...
For the real parahaters out there i have another suggestion, make the parashockbeam 110 psi to use and make the holy paralysis 120 psi to use, and need of about 160 ppu or so, so it get the highly wanted spell where you could level up for, i bet that if the requests be made extremely hi there wont be alot of monks runnin around with parashock, now every noob can parashock ya with a parashockbeam or even paralysis, there not like that high of req at the moment with all them chips adding +psi ...
JustIn_Case
23-10-03, 13:11
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Original Monk, I dunno about everyone else but I am NOT saying "nerf the PPU". All i am saying is that due to their spells they are hard to kill (the fact that they can't kill anything sorta counters it)
Wrong, they can kill.
1. DMG boost + Paraspam kills.
2. There is only one weapon in this game that is a oneshot kill and that is Holy Para. (Glued to the ground = dead).
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 13:17
Originally posted by JustIn_Case
Wrong, they can kill.
1. DMG boost + Paraspam kills.
2. There is only one weapon in this game that is a oneshot kill and that is Holy Para. (Glued to the ground = dead).
Umm, meantime i coulda locked auto-run on, logged a second account on and have brought a second char on.
The only way that i have seen PPUs soloing in PvP is by Parashocking you to the floor, DBing you and then introducing you to their little gun.
Edit: and as for Paraspamming... we have anti-shock but it isn't THAT effective. Best way would be so that a player can only be parashocked once every minute or two. This would stop spamming and still allow the PPU to parashock other players rapidly. Seems like best of both worlds.
Well, i think the PPUs are not that unbalanced.
I think there are only 2 real issues:
1. The Holy Parashock
The parashock is what is getting on most players nerves. I personally think it is not really necessary. Might balance the melee tanks aswell, when it vanishes. So i wouldnt care if it goes.
2. Resurrection
The real problem which everyone is whining about, is that you cant win an opfight with anyone who has more PPUs than yourself. At the moment this seems true. So change the way resurrection wiorks a bit. Give the resurrected person some SI. about 3% would work i think. If a person with more than 7% SI dies, they cant be resurrected, teheir screen goes blank. So now you have a real chance, even if the other side has more PPUs. (this would make the rezkillproblem more balanced aswell)
All the other things about nerfing shields, heals, boosters is just based on those two things above. Change them, and i think you have the solution. Even in normal fights this makes it more even. And if a APU/PPU team kills you, dont whine, they were 2 against 1. You wouldnt have survived 2 tanks either, would you?
Another thing that could be useful, which was mentioned in one of the posts, would be a tool, which desintegrates the corpse of a runner, so he cant be resurrected. But thats probably for another thread.
Xaru
JustIn_Case
23-10-03, 13:25
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
Umm, meantime i coulda locked auto-run on, logged a second account on and have brought a second char on.
The only way that i have seen PPUs soloing in PvP is by Parashocking you to the floor, DBing you and then introducing you to their little gun.
So then they can kill you in 2 ways even. With a sucky SC there is a third.
And if you use Holy para to glue and an lower para (with high RoF) you can kill quite fast as an PPU.
But...the problem rather is the Parashocking you to the floor, DBing you and then introducing you to their FRIENDS issue. Only way to escape is using Holy Catharis Sanctum or Stealth...
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 13:27
Originally posted by Xaru
Another thing that could be useful, which was mentioned in one of the posts, would be a tool, which desintegrates the corpse of a runner, so he cant be resurrected. But thats probably for another thread.
Xaru
Something like a form of acid maybe? An acid load for the flame-throwers that would destroy player corpses and force the player to respawn in their apartment.
Mr Friendly
23-10-03, 13:46
Originally posted by Gungnir
--
I've seen enough buddles of threads regarding this topic.
Thus created what will be know as PPUSmash™. From here on
unless otherwise stated by my superiors all threads regarding
nerfing PPUs, nerfing a spell of theirs, or their value in the game,
will be promptly closed and redirected here.
Forums rules will also apply here two times over. This is a hot
topic, be/try to be/pretend to be - adults about this.
We'll see how this works for sometime.
--
Gungnir
no matter what any other PE spy or tank or monk has told u, there isnt a current "monk imbalance".
speaking as a once ppu & now apu, i see only one thing that would fix alot, triple the cost to cast the parashock spells. Theres no point in antishock drugs if they can just para spam u over & over :rolleyes:
Just to throw in my 2nc worth in, while I read from the start again.
Hmm, I still think the problem is too many people playing monks in the game, and the problems from the hybrids lingering over. What happened when the last monk nerf got applied, most people LOM'ed to APU or PPU, and others rerolled to another class, only this time around a lot of people I reckon LOM'ed to PPU.
It always seem to be a never ending cycle, X is too powerful, MonkSmash X gets started in the forums,apply Nerf, now Y is too powerful, MonkSmash Y gets started in the forums,apply Nerf....rinse and repeat I am not convinced that a nerf to make PPU monks less powerful is the way to go.
Alpha-Omega
23-10-03, 14:11
Mr Friendly
What that means is that PPUs just crunch even more boosters to make up for the increased costs. Remember that monks in clans almost always have access to MASSIVE ammounts of boosters due to the clan being able to afford them.
Increasing costs doesn't work that well. KK have tried changing the costs and in the longrun it doesn't work as all the monks do is use more boosters and tweak their pool accordingly.
Original monk
23-10-03, 14:36
Originally posted by Brammers
It always seem to be a never ending cycle, X is too powerful, MonkSmash X gets started in the forums,apply Nerf, now Y is too powerful, MonkSmash Y gets started in the forums,apply Nerf....rinse and repeat I am not convinced that a nerf to make PPU monks less powerful is the way to go.
Youre a 100% right but somehow i think people yust wont get it and they will yust follow the one yelling NERF the hardest, mature nope, sad for a class of people that enjoy playing there char! ust like the hybrids back then: OW NOO these 2 hybrids always kill me: this 2 hybrids are bad ----> its there weapons, it must be ------> all hybrids are bad ------> nerf the hybrids -------> NERF NERF NERF -------> people start posting nerf hybrid 111 in siggy --------> KK starts sweating, onoz unsatisfied customers -----------> KK does the job they gotta do and what evryone is asking for so they kill the hybrids -----> lots o people leave ---------> monks specialize in apu/ppu as KK forces: or be nerfed beyond dead (dont come back with that hybrids are still viable stuff LOL :rolleyes:) -------> specialized monks are strong --------> people get shocked from a paralysis thats fully capped -------> onoz what did we do the monks are still strong, maybe even stronger if they work togheter as a team -----> NERF NERF NERF -----> people start posting nerf PPUmonks in siggy -------> return to start (ya wont receive cash at start).
snif
KK if ya wonna nerf the ppumonk make it a short pain and not a nerf spreaded over a year (like in the first patch -25%shelter, the next patch -25%heal, the next one a few weeks/months later, -25%rezzurection or i dunno what) so i can detect the nerf fast enough and lom again 4 psilevels away to become a apu (like alot of PPu monks that are tired of being played around with) that is ffcourse until they nerf the apu's cause if you think you are "free" off nerfs because you are an apu -> then stop dreaming, now theres been hybrid, now its ppu, and fo A 200% sure, next are the apu's :/
Originally posted by Original monk
(dont come back with that hybrids are still viable stuff LOL :rolleyes:)
But Hybrids are still viable !!! :angel:
Progenitor
23-10-03, 15:28
Thinking of balance:
Make Anit-* drugs work better.
Make PSI resist work aganst/with PPU spells (Apu spells damage types already have resists aganst them) Only downside is that there would be a chance that non-self cast heals and what not would have a greater chance of failing and not working due to the targets psi-resist. Self cast spells should ignore psi-resist
If not psi resist, make Energy resist work aganist para spells.
Reduce Holy Para to slightly greater than that of Maulers. Increase Para Barrel to slightly less than current Holy Para. Give Maulers that as their para. Barrels have increadably poor range and the ppu would more often than not para himself along with any friendlies in the area. The mana cost and frequency needs to be played with a bit.
Perhaps even give melee tanks some sort of immunity to para, so that they can counter the ppu.
Death should cause a drug flash while you wait around - you are dead after all - it should be hard to see anything. Upon resurection, you should have slight SI - you just were brought back from the dead, it's a shocking experience. The bonus from resurection is that you don't pop any implants and don't have to GR back to your belt/backpack. Perhaps even make the SI based on how long you have been dead.
All monks should have a chance of spell fizzle when hit by enemy fire. Especially force damage. Make it dependant on the handling of the spell - handling needs to do something anyway. Want to stop a monk casting resurection - pepper them with force damage.
-p
PPU idea
I agree that monks need a compleat rework.
ok my idea is based on the idea of splitin them into apu sections
under the new idea there would be three monk types
energy
poison
fire
now they stll need certain ppu spells so some would be availiable to all adn some to each class
shelter + deflectors + heals
these now only have 2 requirements
Psi lvl and mst
there will only be one kind of each. one shelter adn one deflecter adn one (maybe 2) heals.
as the damage % would now be comleatly relient on psi lvl the shields would be over twie as effective on a monk than a PE but it would be the same spell.
same thing would go for heal spells.
this means the monks new heals and stuff would be the bes of choice and so a PE could do there job but not to the degree a monk could making them still needed in fights.
resserection would also be psi lvl and mst based so only monks cold use it.
also the buff spells would be psi and mst based
ok now for the rest of the ppu spells.
poison monks would get to use antipoison and antipoison sanctum - there poison specalists so it seems right there the ones who can cure it.
Fire monks get anti flame spell or sanctum , maybe instead a anti fire stack spell that only lasts about 20 seconds but means only one fire spell can be cast one them at once
energy monks could maybe get the soulclusters (there made of energy) and maybe some form of enery dampaner meaning all energy damage is reduced by about an extra 30% on who ever has the buff.
a whole new string of spells in each area could be made and using some imagination a lot could be thought up.
now with these ideas in mind a monk could be wuite killable but beable to dish out some nice damage and help the team at the same time. they would still have a use and all 3 types of monk would be needed but not vital for different situations.
Hmm maybe i am crazy... maybe no :)
Well i have an idea... to solve the problem
As I am a PPU I know what the class, the disadvantages and the advantages.
Well I think the problem is PPU that rez other PPU.
It makes fight too long and sometimes impossible to win.
I think monks with PPU skill wouldn't be able to be resurrected.
Like that all problems are solved...
I am really affraid about the ideas of this thread as I am an PPU... :(
hey men do you realise what is PPU work ???????
as a pure ppu since my level 0/2 I think PPU has a true role in fight and that's why it is a good class.
The problem exist but I think about a solution that doesn't kill PPU game....
For the holy para. All I can say...antiparalyze exists...
Drugs exists.... and it is the only attack. Personnaly i use it to avoid fight and to forbid retreat to ennmies...
I don't think holy para is so powerful...
well i am a bit late on this.. but of course they can make all the threads just into one big one that contains all the info of the word monk.. cause then they only have one thread to ignore instead of 20
3 Easy fixes;
1#
Holy Paralysis should have the same rof, stat and mana use as Holy Antibuff. All the lesser para spells, should have similiar reqs as the antibuffs.
2#
All heals should be 50% less effective when casted to someone else then you. Exception are the group and sanctum heals.
(heres a tip for you people who use the "MC5 WILL BE TOO HARD, OMG OMG" defense card thats a really sad card, the group and sanctums will still give the 100%, plus everyone will get the heal, making the job for the PPU a bit easier.)
3#
Fix the Drugs, especially the anti-shock, so they last a bit longer, and remove the drug fuzzyness from the said drugs, and make them able to stack onto each other in 3x in the Quickbelt. Same with the other drugs.
How about KK forget about nerfing the ppus and get the new vehicles onto Uranus!!!!!!
Original monk
23-10-03, 16:46
Originally posted by Yalson
How about KK forget about nerfing the ppus and get the new vehicles onto Uranus!!!!!!
RIGHT ON
and while they at it: new weapons fo like every class, and some hi level content (HQ bosses) or even new mobs like a 5 star warbot (wich should be 3 times as big as a regular titan).
Maybe put a Wb again at the end of storage 8 so a group of noobs can go gank em :P
To stay on topic: duder: about the mc5 part: i dont believe ya: even with a holy group heal (wich drains mana) you cant hunt decently in mc5, the on other catsed shelters been nerfed allready, and like i told here: now they wonna go nerf every possible aspect of the PPU, this makes me sad snif
what started out as someone nagging about being parashocked ended up in a specially therefore designed thread where everybody yells to nerf the ppu to dead....
edit1: where stays scikar ? is he sick or so ? must be the flue ... get well soon scikar :)
edit2: i wish that mjs would start interfering with this thread to defend the not-nerfing off the PPU ;)
It's really sad to see alot of ppl hate the ppu monk and the monk class in general.
I can assure you that alot of the ppl whineing about all this the subject that never ends,
have infact relied on a ppu monk to powerlvl some or maby all of their chars, then just turn arround 360 degrees when capped and say fuck you ppu's. you suck. You ruin the game for me.
I know you dont need a ppu to cap, I have a capped rifle spy on pluto who I capped without the use of a ppu what so ever. capped pe on saturn I might have had some help from a ppu at some occasions, a half capped pistol construction spy on saturn, hardly no help from ppu there either, and a melee tank on uranus there aswell without the help of ppu's. So sure it can be done it's not that hard, you are just limited to what types of mobs you can lvl on and it takes a while longer (in some cases it can also be more fun and challangeing).
But Im pretty sure ALOT of the whiners who has started alt chars and wanted to cap them in like 2 days have been dependant on someone to help them out and when that is done just piss on the monks. Cause after they just want to pvp and we ruin it for them. But you dont think this whining ruins it for us?.. You think it's funny to read all these threads about remove ppu!! Its not easy playing ppu and ppl like to yell BUFF ME HEAL ME, shelter me def me ress him ress that.
As for ppus beeing overpowered, well yes to some extent but the way they are built and the way this game works that is somewhat the meaning of it.
And I still belive that killing a ppu is and should be a team effort, me and friends have killed ppl with ppu without one ourselfs and killed the ppu or just let him escape. So you shold be able to do the same. Even without the use of debuff.
Yes Parashocking removes any skills in pvp that is so true, needs to be removed or increased mana cost and freeze time or/and freeze effect.
I can also live with heals shelters and the likes to be lowered if that is what it takes to make you all the whiners to stfu allready about this subject. But to decrease all theese things KK and we the players need to play on the test server for quite some time simulating op wars and skirmish pvp situations to see that this really works.
Cause if lets say we decrease the effect on the shelters on the ppu it self and keeps the same effect or an increased effect on others, then you see there will still be ppl OMG NERF bohoo bohhoo I cant win with my uberresist skill pvp god setup bohooo. And then there will be another nerf done.
As for the hybrid thingy I dont like it at all. I could infact delete all my chars just to keep my ppu cause I really enjoy playing one. Not to be uber not to laugh in ppls faces cause im uber but cause I like to help out and make a difference. if I would be forced to go hybrid again and I have the oppertunity to heal and shelter or whatever others I'd say FUCK YOU! you can just rot in hell. Go lvl on mobs you can defeat without having to get buffs from me asshole. It would remove what I like in this game, I dont have to be selfsufficiant I like to play in a team of 2 - 5 ppl gathering parts and shit. As Hybrid I dont need you, you might need me at times for ress but at that time I will not give a shit about what you need.
As I said I can live with a decrease of shelters and heals IF it is tested REALLY good before going retail, so we know this is something that could work, and maby make all the BOHOO IM UBAR BUT I DONT WIN threads Im sick of them.
Another thing that has to be done to PPU's is the restriction on weapons they can use. A ppu monk should not be able to use a pistol at all, not melee not heavy combat, not even the fist :). Remove the dmg done by any of the ppu spells. But for this to happen missions needs to work for us. And I mean not just those lame research/construction missions I mean real ppu missions. Heal and protect a runner within your lvl for 5 kills then go get another one, I might even demand an increase of exp points given for ppu missions.
Epic missions must be changed aswell. Are you ppu or are you any other class choose here, and according to what you choose you get pvp epic missions or ppu epic missions. It could be instead of killing a tsunami runner for instance you have to I dont know ressurect him.. or something.
Well Im pretty damn sick and tired of reading all theese things by now. I've had some suggestions before about what could be done with the ppu, but I dont feel like posting it again here, Cause you just hate ppu's to much and in most cases to seem to give a shit anyway aslong as the ppu is removed so you and only you can have some fun?..
Dont get me wrong I like to pvp aswell with pe and apu.. But I also like to hunt at times when I dont feel like pvping. And you also destroy the game by removing ppu's for all the ppl that dont give a shit about pvp.
The problem is that alot of PPU spells remove the skill from PvP and from OP wars.
But I don't think that an out and out nerf should be the solution. There should be a slight nerf to APU/PPUs and a boost to the other classes, except PEs which are pretty damn balanced now.
I think that the PPU heal on others should be nerfed, Parashock moved to PvM only and a shelt removed on rezzing.... why? Because as it stands Parashock removed all skill from PvP. With such uber heals every classes defence becomes the same with a PPU stuck up their asses. This means that the APUs massive damage is even more deadly. With a nerf to healing others it would mean that the other classes defence actually matters, and that the PPU can't ust heal up the other class in seconds. Rezz should remove shelters to make skill matter more at OP fights.... as it stands a few PPUs can just stand around rezzing up their fallen team memebers for quite some time, with the uber heals the recently rezzed chars are good as new within a few seconds.
But I also think that PPUs should be able to over-ride lower level buffs and heals with higher TL ones. So they get something back.
Original monk
23-10-03, 18:09
Originally posted by Judge
But I also think that PPUs should be able to over-ride lower level buffs and heals with higher TL ones. So they get something back.
they get some eggs trown back in there face after helping you level up all youre chars and antipoisoning you in the graves and the swamps .... yust like ino says ...
you say nerf em like mad but let em override heals lol, like thats gonna matter then anymore, i have my lompills ready to turn apu and then all the nerfers have a reason to yell: OMG nerf the APU and remove those crazy poisonbarrels and the even more irritating poisonbeams :P
Disturbed021
23-10-03, 18:22
PPU's just need to have Holy Para changed (cost more PSI to cast and lower rof would be good).
Rez needs to be changed as well you should only have a few mins to rez someone or they automatically GR back to their apt. Too many times ppl die and just log an alt to continue to fight and rez their other character later or just sit there for 30 mins to see if their side is gonna win.
Those are the only 2 things I think need to change for PPUs.
As for what Judge said I can live with a nerfed heal on others and maby alot of other ppl can too..
But they way the hatness twoards the ppu is atm, that wont be enough for them to shut their damn mouths about it. They still cant kill the ppu and because they are the ubar mench that wont do cause they have to win no matter what alone.. So in that case they need to nerf the heal power overall if they would shutup. But then after the heal nerf. One of the whiners meet a ppu and another whatever class and looses he will come right back here and whine BOHOOO I lost. so a new nerf this nerf that thread will emerge and other ppl like him/her will post YEAH nerf this nerf that.. It's really sad.
Dribble Joy
23-10-03, 19:01
Originally posted by Original monk
you say nerf em like mad but let em override heals lol
This is a balance issue. Yes nerfing may come into it, but 'boosting' can also.
Too many posts to quote from here... so...
There are only a few 'problems' I see/have with PPUs (not to say there arn't problems with the other classes, but this isn't the place to discuss that)
These are:
Holy heal
Parashock
Possibly Rezzing, but if the others are 'fixed' then this is also 'fixed'.
The rate at which HH gives HP back is insane. The shields are fine, I have no problem with them, they arn't a problem really. But with HH there is no point of shooting a PPU at all. 1 vs 1 a PPU SHOULD be able to outheal an attacker. 2 vs 1 possibly, but anymore and they should be in trouble. This would help solve the 'rezzing under fire' problem.
Shields allready have been reduced in effectiveness on others, this is fine, and could be reversed slightly. PEs don't even need a PPU apart from healing (which they can do as well) and lvl 3 buffs, which could be seen as an imbalance. HH on others should be reduced to 50%-60% on others, similar to shields.
The other thing is of course, Parashock.
Like freezers before them, these piss me and many others off insanely.
The problem is the ability this spell has to remove control of the players character from them.
It is the removal of someones ability (avoiding the word 'skill' here) to play the game, with no real conter to it. Even if anti-scock drugs were usefull, even if the cast time and mana cost was increased, these things will continue to ruin peoples fun. Remove it.
I have no problems with DB, again this doesnt remove skill, you can still dodge and shoot.
Rezzing isn't a problem, possibly up the mana cost, but otherwise I think it's a viable tool.
The problem is the inability for others to kill the PPUs while they use these tools.
Oh, and the hybrid 'nerf' factor should be reduced to 25%
No doubt this will go un-read and be lost in the sea of whines.
GAH!!!! I read this when it goes back to the forum and it has come out all wrong!! *cries
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Rezzing isn't a problem, possibly up the mana cost, but otherwise I think it's a viable tool.
The problem is the inability for others to kill the PPUs while they use these tools.
on my holy ressurection i have a RoF of 10/min, that means i can ressurect a person in 10 seconds.... thats pretty fast..
holy rez should be removed, and the reqs of the normal rez should be upped to the ones holy rez has atm. mana cost on rez should be like 210 or a little more.
Originally posted by Original monk
they get some eggs trown back in there face after helping you level up all youre chars and antipoisoning you in the graves and the swamps .... yust like ino says ...
I level solo. I don't use PPUs. So not I'm not throwing any eggs in their faces after helping me out.
Originally posted by Original monk
you say nerf em like mad but let em override heals lol, like thats gonna matter then anymore, i have my lompills ready to turn apu and then all the nerfers have a reason to yell: OMG nerf the APU and remove those crazy poisonbarrels and the even more irritating poisonbeams :P
Wow, its not going to matter to the whole population just because YOU are going to lom.... So why were you PPU in the first place? Because you had to lom from hybrid? Because you know that PPUs can withstand the most damage? FFS the changes I proposed the PPU could still provide its main purpose of supporting in PvM and PvP, it just wouldn't be as necessary. The PPU would still be almost invincible anyway, but it just wouldn't pass on all of that power to others. You act like I'm removing all heals, shelters and deflectors frm the game ffs.
Originally posted by Furion
on my holy ressurection i have a RoF of 10/min, that means i can ressurect a person in 10 seconds.... thats pretty fast..
i think u will find thats every 6 seconds
60 divided by 10 = 6 :)
also to person that said we used ppu's to lvl both my main chars i got near cap b4 ppu / apu's came on the scean and my apu monk i solo with to lvl. only time we use a ppu is for cave bosses and thats only because they made it so u need one when they made monks apu/ppu
Dribble Joy
23-10-03, 19:55
Originally posted by Furion
on my holy ressurection i have a RoF of 10/min, that means i can ressurect a person in 10 seconds.... thats pretty fast..
holy rez should be removed, and the reqs of the normal rez should be upped to the ones holy rez has atm. mana cost on rez should be like 210 or a little more.
I didin't know this. Bleh.
If it took 20 secs thats good. I was going to argue that rezzing used all mana, and gave the PPU and rezzee 5% SI, but thats just evil.
the problem with rezzing is that they can do it with 7 people attackin them. when u get rezzed the condition u are in is fine they jsut need ressing to drop ya shields or at least weaken them by 60% while casting rezz
Dribble Joy
23-10-03, 19:59
Shields arent the problem, dmg can get through them, it's holy heal that stops PPUs dieing.
u have a point as soon as u cast rezz heal should stop. 3 speed guns would stop u rezzing someone im sure
A Change like that I got no problems with.. I can understand some of the problems some have with ppus able to ress while being shot.. Healsanctum should be able to run on the resser but I can live with the heal being shutoff. Could take it one more step that while ressurecting noone can buff or heal the ppu..
There is just one problem with the idea and that is pvm.. Say you are lvling with lets say an apu in one of the Chaos Caves, lets say the apu dies infront of 3 Luitenants and its minions (AND you cant get to the body from behind something to protect you like a "stone" or whatever). With the no heal thingy during ress will almost for sure kill me while trying to ress the apu, IF all three Luitenants and the minions decide not to like me. Even harder for low lvl ppus helping lowlvl chars in the caves to lvl. One way to solve this is having 2 kinds of ress spells. One in lvling spots that you can use to ress ppl you lvl with and still be able to heal and survive the ress. And one in op zones. This sollution has lots of problems cause there are ppl lvling in op zones and there are ppl fighting in non op zones :).
If KK could do to the dead what they did with the dog tags, tag wont drop if player heavent died or received the most dmg from another player. In that case Mob kills can be ressed and player killed can be ressed but without the use of Heal.. But still pretty hard and troublesome to implement
Syntax-Error
23-10-03, 20:22
The ammount of arguement i have with my mates about this. we decided on.
Para a slight nerf , RoF and mana
Boost freezer weapons to SAME level
make anti-para a APU spell.
This isnt my idea solution. but it what we figured out (PE. APU. PPU)
I dont belive in giving new light to freezer pistols/rifles/cannons/melee will make ppl happy. Before when the freezers worked there wasn't one tank on pluto who didnt use a poket blizzard, and a 10000 times of 10000 times the tank would use the blizzard and you where fucked. Same goes for a spy pulling the blizzard on a tank or a pe or whatever. So in all fights it was if you got frozen you are dead. every time.
I know this is the same thing when getting freezed by the parashock and it's even worse. Remove the freezer spells.. and just make them a support spell vs flying things that flap your face ALL the time.
They should make this happen on the test server and check how an op war would turn out and skirmish fights where the ppu cant freeze anyone. If ppl start to say it sux cause some chars are to fast, and player prediction in Neocron is kinda bad. But it is bad because there are so many countries playing and on different connections, so it has to be somewhat like this. Or if the test server tryout is working and ppl dont mind fast ppl or whatever then it's a go.
But ppl need to get to test and try shit out otherwise if some heal nerfs or removal of ppus as some assholes wants get implemented without real testing you will get exploits and unbalanced classes and fights leading to nerf the whole fucking game.
Original monk
23-10-03, 20:43
Originally posted by Judge
I level solo. I don't use PPUs. So not I'm not throwing any eggs in their faces after helping me out.
Wow, its not going to matter to the whole population just because YOU are going to lom.... So why were you PPU in the first place? Because you had to lom from hybrid? Because you know that PPUs can withstand the most damage? FFS the changes I proposed the PPU could still provide its main purpose of necessary supporting in PvM and PvP, it just wouldn't be as . The PPU would still be almost invincible anyway, but it just wouldn't pass on all of that power to others. You act like I'm removing all heals, shelters and deflectors frm the game ffs.
lo drikie :P i got yo attention, im postin a bit less in this thread anyway, im yust serieusly thinking off lommin away yeah, you know if KK changes the PPu they change em torough, and yeah i was a hybrid before (not to PK people no) thats why i know that.
Yeah you level solo, i wasnt talking about you in particular i was talking about all the hundreds of tanks that got all there precieus con true PPU's, i was talking about all the spy's, PE's tank and ffcourse apumonks that leveld up to a 100 in the chaoscaves, in the swampcaves, in mc5 or huntin warbots, all with the holy heal and the shelters and the para and the DB we have now, so it aint nice off them (i also leveld with ppu's so actually that includes me also) to turn there backs on em now and go yelling NERF that class :)
But i understand youre frustration, i have a PE and a apu also :) do you think i didnt been damageboosted and frozen to the ground a million times ?
I must apologize if i go in this to extreme, its the nature of the beast, its not like im adressing you in particular drikie i yust get a bit angry to see a fun class to play with being nerfed.
Neocron is a everchanging world... me noticed that by know ...
Im off leveling my newbie apu on pluto :P and i gonna lay low on the ppu threads fo a while cause i think i made my point by now ...
cu around in pepper park drikie, ya not gonna be mad at me he :)
@ dribble joy: dont think youre post will go un-read in the sea of discussions, you have some strong arguments in there, and yeah sumthimes im tired off ppu's also but its the only spells they can have fun with hé, or dont ya think a ppu also wonna kill stuff or help kill stuff if he or she see all those apu's around em fire apocing, or when they see that PE empty the liberatorclips on that buffed tank ? hehe
anyway good luck you dont here me whinin no more, fo now :P
edit: i became a ppu to help people out, to level people, to freeze people to the floor ;) , and because i prefered those pretty intertwining bubbles of the catharsis sanctum (the so called disco) above the green bubbling of the pestilance hehe
The PPU char is a very importend char... every other class need him for effective support.
BUT: I think too, that the rare paralyse spell is too strong. In a PvP where a PPU/tank/apu/(pe) team rush a zone/OP wins at 99% the team which cast at first the paralyse.
Long time ago, where Tanks used the Freezer cannon, the most people were angry about the same effect...
Today its not a Tank with a cannon, its a PPU with a Holy Paralyse...o_O
Now its time to improve the situation... the spell is to strong in my eyes...
Greetz... Bitburger (Best german Beer :D )
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Para a slight nerf , RoF and mana
Boost freezer weapons to SAME level
So making every class able to stick you to the ground would solve the problem with para hmm....?
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
make anti-para a APU spell.
Further increasing our dependance on monks..... great.
Syntax-Error
23-10-03, 21:55
Just my thoughts
but well. there strong minded people so i didnt argue
I don't think we want a rework on everything, its just too much and the consequences are unpredictable. PPUs in my opinion should remain vital to sucess as they are the healers, but their role right now is too important
In my own opinion
1) IMO rezsing is good in a way as it brings longetivity to a battle, but I think rezed people should not be able to fight straight away, they should suffer from static blindness.
2) yes APU's spell ranges need to be reduced slightly
3) holy paralysis has to be reduced in power but not destroyed
4) nothing else about ppus should be changed, they are meant to be the super protectors, they don't have any usefull attack spells apart from holy paralysis.
5) Make melee weapons a counter to deflectors and shelters
6) snipers need a boost in power to blow through deflectors
7) droners need to have their static screen removed
8) every outpost should be a vehicle depot, and vehicles need to be very anti psi, so it will be the ultimate counter to APU
and I think PEs are fine, because they are meant to be ok at everything which they are right now, they won't ever have a role, but they can do most things to a certain degree.
After watching a number of fights the only time a PPU has the advantage..
1) The other players suck badly. No.. really really suck.
2) The PPU is good to experienced and capped.
3) one on one.
Seriously, and those people whining about Spies? Try playing one, they are pretty lethal is used correctly.
I agree Parashock should be totally passive or reworked. Apart from that I'll be ignoring the thread from now on (thank you mods).
Originally posted by Thundra
i think u will find thats every 6 seconds
60 divided by 10 = 6 :)
math isnt my strong point :lol: :p :lol:
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 23:26
I think if the PPU wants to keep all his powers intact, then every class should get a method of fighting ppus. Then remove para, give ppus run/casting, and do something about ressurection.
Sounds good to me.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think if the PPU wants to keep all his powers intact, then every class should get a method of fighting ppus. Then remove para, give ppus run/casting, and do something about ressurection.
Sounds good to me.
I don't think every class should get a weapon like holy anti buff, it would make a ppu jobs 10 times harder then it is already. But I do think holy para should be removed and the effectiveness of holy shelter and holy heal should be toned down a bit. And if the shelter/heal is weakened then there wouldn't be no need for doing anything about ressurection. A ppu wouldn't be able to stand still for 5 or 6 seconds anymore and be able to take the beating anymore.
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 23:36
Originally posted by petek480
I don't think every class should get a weapon like holy anti buff, it would make a ppu jobs 10 times harder then it is already.
Doesn't have to be like holy antibuff. All I know is that when anti-shelter was first on the test server, ppus said how it would be the end of them, ppus would not be useless, no one would play them, blah blah blah usual exaggeration.
I actually think this might be a good idea. Then you won't need a monk to fight a monk, and the holy para/ressurect problem won't be a problem either.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Doesn't have to be like holy antibuff. All I know is that when anti-shelter was first on the test server, ppus said how it would be the end of them, ppus would not be useless, no one would play them, blah blah blah usual exaggeration.
I actually think this might be a good idea. Then you won't need a monk to fight a monk, and the holy para/ressurect problem won't be a problem either.
Well if para was removed and holy shelter/deflector/heal was toned down some you woudln't need any holy anti spells/weapons to take down a ppu. PPU would still have good defenses, but not as good as now. So if a ppu's team died they'll have to get out as soon as possible or they will die.
Btw the reason i don't want every class to have anti weapons is becuase it would make the ppu class very hard to play, everyone would be using the anti weapons on them so all the ppu would do is have to rebuff throughout the fight. So i rather just have there shelter/deflector/heal toned down making it easier to kill a ppu so at least the ppu wouldn't ahve to spend the whole time during a fight rebuffing.
Shadow Dancer
23-10-03, 23:44
Originally posted by petek480
Well if para was removed and holy shelter/deflector/heal was toned down some you woudln't need any holy anti spells/weapons to take down a ppu. PPU would still have good defenses, but not as good as now.
O_o
You want to tone down their defense enough so that you wouldn't need anti spells to take them down?
Is this what you're telling me?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
O_o
You want to tone down their defense enough so that you wouldn't need anti spells to take them down?
Is this what you're telling me?
Well i still want it that it would take a couple people to take down a ppu.
it is agreed that most people underestimate the amount of micromanagement ppus need to constantly invest until they use a ppu themselves, they are no as immortal as most think, they're buffs need constant rebuffing and so does the team. I hold my suggestions I suggested before. Spies just need a boost in sniping and removal of the drone static crap. holy paralysis tuned down, vehicles that resist psi and ressurection nerfed, give melee tanks a purpose
and we can all live happily ever after
Ok I have two accounts, one is a PE and another is a PPU monk. So yes I am paying $10 a month for my PPU. That being said, my feelings towards this issue are probably less biased than some one who plays without a PPU.
Parashock. Completely and absolutely take it out of the game. BUT. Let me tell you when I LoMed my monk from hybrid to PPU, and I didn't have a parashock spell yet, I think I could finally gain an appreciation for why many PPUs want to keep parashock in. But again, I pay for both a PE and a PPU so I can see both sides of the story. Plain and simple parashock ruins the game. But give the PPU something else good in its place. Ive made several other suggestions in the past as a replacement. Perhaps a self invisiblity spell, or even an invisiblity sanctum. THAT would friggin own.
Best solution for parashock: Take out and replace with something else.
Minimum solution for parashock: Increase the psi cost by a large number and divide the rate of fire by a large number.
Now for PPUs in general. It's obvious that monks are starting to dominate this game. As several people have said before, 'monkacron' has taken the soul out of PvP in Neocron. Again several solutions here. For one I would like to see cast time for the resurrection spel increased by about 4 times as long. The PPU should not be able to withstand 30 people shooting at him while resurrecting his team mates. The obvious response to this is, "You can counter him easy with an APU monk." Well goddie, we have more monks in the game.
Possible solutions are giving some sort of antibuff weapon to the other classes. Ive given the example of a high tech weapon that anti-buffs some one but causes SI on behalf of the user.
And well, there are plenty of other roads you can take to fix the problem as is evident in this thread. Just PLEASE, do something about it. I have played this game long enough to know you guys listen to us players despite what any one says. I'm greatly looking forward to this being resolved. Thanks.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 00:49
Ok, i think i'm gonna hafta clear up some confusion. The problem with Monkacron is the dominance of Monks. Holy para is just a small part of the PPU problem, but it doesnt' really touch on the core problem. The core problem is the PPUs themselves. They have sooooooooo many roles, and they give off such a tremendous advantage to their team that the enemy almost NEEDs a ppu as well. It gets worse when it's like a ratio of 3 ppus against a team with none or against a team with 1. There is no way to realisticly kill ppus unless you have an apu(or the ppu fucks up). So now do you not only need a ppu(or several if the enemy is the type to bring several), but now you need apus to combat those ppus. That's the problem of Monkacron.
ADDING to the problem is that the APU's "disadvantage" dissapears when he's paired with a ppu. Mainly his crap defense/lack of healing. So a XXX/ppu team has no advantage over an apu/ppu team.
Now, people often complain about having to leave or their fun being ruined when a PPU shows up. That's due to their lack of apu, ppu, or ability to take down the PPU. Now if every class had a method of taking down the PPU, then PPUs would complain that they can't do their job because everyone would be able to kill them. If their defense was toned down to the point where they didn't have godlike defense, then they would complain that they don't have the defense to do their job.
If you take out too many roles of the ppu(make buffs self-cast etc...) then ppus would complain that their useless.
So what do we do?
The questions we should be asking ourselves is..........
1.How do we tone down the role of the PPU so that people won't NEED one to combat a team with one, without making the ppu useless?
2.Should we even do that? Is it ok for PPUs to be this important?
3.Is it possible to solve the problem without touching monks at all? For example, boosting the support role of other classes? But how would that solve making monks needed?
I think that's some good clarification right there.
Here are my answers to those questions.
1.I don't know if that's possible. If it is then obviously I would prefer that rather than destroying ppus.
2.No i don't think it's ok for one class to be THAT important.
3.I don't know, maybe. Perhaps an int-based healing tool that pes/spies can take advantage of, combined with the "toning" of some of the ppu spells. Also making melee weapons bypass shields or maybe induce bleeding wounds that stop/slow down healing. I'm flexible on pretty much everything except one thing, no matter what happens, I think paralyze should be PvM only. That's the only thing I'll be 100% hard-headed on.
4.I think that if the ppu gets nerfed or some of his spells toned down, then his "flaws"(not natural disadvantages, i.e. no offense) should be FIXED. For example, increase int xp gain(for all monks actually) to a REALISTIC level. Not this .00000005% increase bullshit. If you wanna bring monks inline with other classes, then these little "flaws" are no longer justified. Also give ppus a better way of leveling. Also increase the construction quality cap on ALL items, this will benefit ppus the most. So they don't have to spend 5 million on getting a good slotted shelter or something.
Sex
After some thought I do believe it's possible to fix the problem without destroying PPUs. But to be honest, most of the ppus posting aren't helping one bit. It's RARE to find a ppu willing to work towards a solution instead of taking an ignorant hybrid mentality of "omg nothing's wrong".
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 00:51
Originally posted by Jest
Perhaps a self invisiblity spell, or even an invisiblity sanctum. THAT would friggin own.
Completely and totally unfair to spies/pes who can steatlh. There's no need to give ppus ANOTHER role and steal it from anotehr class.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
It gets worse when it's like a ratio of 3 ppus against a team with none or against a team with 1.
Ok see this is what i don't get. Why do people want to win even if they have less ppus:confused: I don't get it. A ppu job is to keep people alive and i'll agree that the way they are right now they do more people god like. But even if they didn't i still think a team with 3 ppus should win against a team with 1 ppu. They got more ppu to keep the team alive and don't ahve to do as much as the team with only 1 ppu. Well anyways, thats my opinion and i know it sounds crazy:rolleyes:
The Melee tank sollution is actually pretty nice.. Not to give them an super advantage over the ppu. but Paw of bear should be able to cut through deflector so that it would hurt more than before but not asmuch as if I didnt have deflector at all. It cant get overly dangerous, cause if ppl want to remove para then I too have to be able to get away with my life from a 114 agl 114 atl melee tank :). But I think to give melee tanks a purpose is nice.
But dont overdo it.. cause the same thing that affects the ppu monks also will affect the other classes wearing the deflectors.
And the silent hunter should be able to do some more dmg to a holy deffed ppu monk, but again not INSANE dmg.
hehe a wierd idea, make some ppu monk sniper bullets that snipers can use in op wars. That is only effective vs the ppu's def. but as i said not INSANLY good. Make the bullets just like the standard ammo mod.. so snipers could have maby 2 silent hunters. one for ppu sniping and one for the rest.. But then again one lonely spy sniper should not be able to kill a decent ppu alone if the ppu notices the dmg done.. also remove the deflectors deflector animation and sound from the impact with the ppu monk bullet :).
Just a little question for Shadow about team without a ppu vs one with.. Say you manage to kill the ppus dmg dealers. Why on earth does the ppu have to die then?.. I cant ressurect ppl when there are like 4 - 6 enemies standing arround, I might be able to take the dmg, but my newly ressed teammate sure cant.
And if the ressurection spell is changed to Heal cant run on ppu when ressing I would rather get out of there than stay and try to ress If it might kill me. And guess what You have won the battle cause I sure as hell cant kill you.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 01:03
Originally posted by petek480
Ok see this is what i don't get. Why do people want to win even if they have less ppus:confused: I don't get it. A ppu job is to keep people alive and i'll agree that the way they are right now they do more people god like. But even if they didn't i still think a team with 3 ppus should win against a team with 1 ppu. They got more ppu to keep the team alive and don't ahve to do as much as the team with only 1 ppu. Well anyways, thats my opinion and i know it sounds crazy:rolleyes:
Um, why doesn't the team with 3 pes/spies/tanks have a super mega advantage? You know ppus are sold in stores right pete? So it just comes down to who has more monks, *again*.
If you think that's ok, well UGH. All I hafta say is that I disagree and I don't think it should be that way, especially in a game with such low population and especially since ppus aren't sold in stores. I can't even count the number of times a clan mate rerolled to ppu or bought an extra account just to "cope" with the problem. And the way they say "only 1 ppu online? *sigh* I guess i'll log onto XXXX". That's SAD. So many of my clanmates hate ppu but play one just to be able to op fight. SAD!
I request that you cap your tank pete and fight in as many op wars as you can. I mean your tank. You ever stop to think you don't really "feel" this problem because you're ppu? Just liek I never really felt a "we need an apu!!!!!" problem when I was apu. But I sure as hell did feel it after playing spy.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Um, why doesn't the team with 3 pes/spies/tanks have a super mega advantage? You know ppus are sold in stores right pete? So it just comes down to who has more monks, *again*.
If you think that's ok, well UGH. All I hafta say is that I disagree and I don't think it should be that way, especially in a game with such low population and especially since ppus aren't sold in stores. I can't even count the number of times a clan mate rerolled to ppu or bought an extra account just to "cope" with the problem. And the way they say "only 1 ppu online? *sigh* I guess i'll log onto XXXX". That's SAD. So many of my clanmates hate ppu but play one just to be able to op fight. SAD!
I request that you cap your tank pete and fight in as many op wars as you can. I mean your tank. You ever stop to think you don't really "feel" this problem because you're ppu? Just liek I never really felt a "we need an apu!!!!!" problem when I was apu. But I sure as hell did feel it after playing spy.
Well i guess we both don't agree on how it should be. And tbh, it's not even like that now, the more ppus you have doesn't automatically means you win. Crackheads has one ppu, me. We can win against anyone team if it's even odds or even if they have more. The only problem we have is that we don't have enough apus. We have 1 apu that isn't even on most of the time. Now tell me how do we win againt teams that have more ppus and apus? Just becuase thats how it is with your clan doesn't mean it's like that forever one
I agree with shadow about one team with 3 ppus vs a team with maby one should be able to win.. But it would be impossible if the 3 ppus are super good, If all the ppus both enemy and friend are really talented then the fight might become a dead run, but the fact that the other team has 3 of them, one or 2 can attend to ressurecting, the other side with just one ppu cant do that as easy.
But a team ppu/pe/pe/tank vs ppu/ppu/ppu/pe/pe/tank/tank/spy for instance. The team with lesser ppl and ppus can win and they can win now too with teamwork and brains.
It should always come down to the team winning a fight should be the team with best players with more ppus or not. but obviously the team with more ppus will have it easier but that is just logical
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 01:16
Originally posted by petek480
Well i guess we both don't agree on how it should be. And tbh, it's not even like that, the more ppus you have doesn't automatically means you win.
Who said it's automatic? But it definitely gives "too" much of an advantage. How come a team with 5 tanks doesn't have a super advantage against a team with 1 tank? etc........
Why on earth are monks the only ones with good healing capacity in NC? That's STUPID STUPID STUPID. It's not ok to give so many damn roles to ONE class, make that ONE class near invincicble, then give that SAME class(refffering to monks in general) the ability to take out THAT class.
Originally posted by petek480
Now tell me how do we win againt teams that have more ppus and apus?
I don't know, isn't this the core of the discussion?
Originally posted by petek480
Just becuase thats how it is with your clan doesn't mean it's like that forever one
No, but it's like that for ALOT of people. And it's NOT ok.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
[B]I don't know, isn't this the core of the discussion? [/B
No but it proves you're wrong that the team with more ppus win against teams with less ppus, which i think how it should be. PPU is the only class right now that can keep people alive, and as long as they are the only class that can do that then then the more ppus you have the more your team stays alive.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 01:26
Originally posted by petek480
No but it proves you're wrong that the team with more ppus win against teams with less ppus, which i think how it should
Nah doesn't prove me wrong, because I didn't say that the team with more ppus will ALWAYS win or will "aumomatically" win. Don't start playing with words pete, you were doing so well. :rolleyes:
I said that they have a much higher chance of winning, basically they have TOO much of an advantage as it is now. And the more ppus/apus the enemy has, the more you need. Monkacron.
How come I don't need more pes/spies? :confused:
Originally posted by petek480
which i think how it should be.
Ugh.
Originally posted by petek480
PPU is the only class right now that can keep people alive, and as long as they are the only class that can do that then the more ppus you have the more your team can stay alive.
Exactly. There should be a first aid tool that is int+dex based(not a skill) that pes/spies can use similar to stealth.
That way they can provide good healing as well. I'm sure KK can balance it. I see no reason for the ppu to be the only class with good healing, especially given their defense. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Nah doesn't prove me wrong, because I didn't say that the team with more ppus will ALWAYS win or will "aumomatically" win. Don't start playing with words pete, you were doing so well. :rolleyes:
I said that they have a much higher chance of winning, basically they have TOO much of an advantage as it is now. And the more ppus/apus the enemy has, the more you need. Monkacron.
How come I don't need more pes/spies? :confused:
The only way to make it so that a team with more ppus won't win is if you make shelter/deflector selfcast only. Leaving ppus with only healing, buffing, and resurrection. I've even said this before but people said it would leave ppus useless, don't know how, but they seems positive it would:rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 01:32
Originally posted by petek480
The only way to make it so that a team with more ppus won't win is if you make shelter/deflector selfcast only. Leaving ppus with only healing, buffing, and resurrection. I've even said this before but people said it would leave ppus useless, don't know how, but they seems positive it would:rolleyes:
heheh
Would you really be ok with shelter/def being self cast only?
What do other ppus think about that? I wish I could make a poll, but I can't...........? You know since gungnir made this thread for the purpose of containing ppu threads.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
heheh
Would you really be ok with shelter/def being self cast only?
Why wouldn't I? It'll make lvl 3 boosters more useful. When I ppu for someone and they ask me for a lvl 3 booster I always think to myself how annoying it is to buff someone with a lvl3 booster since all they really need is shelter/deflector to stay alive. So it'll make them more useful. And ppus will still have heal which is also a powerful spell.
I think a poll in brainport would be okay, Shadow, give it a go...
This thread is for threads after all, not polls.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 01:36
Originally posted by Kenjuten
I think a poll in brainport would be okay, Shadow, give it a go...
Yes, and 2 people will vote. :p
If those two votes == yes, I think it's successful. :)
I know people don't really read Brainport, but it's worth a shot, right?
for me i dunt think ppus will be useless if they make shelter/def self cast only... ppus can still heal (BIG use) and boost (another biggie) and rez (THE GREAT GRAND USAGE OF PPUS).
AS an apu i wouldnt really miss not sheltered and deflectored that much... not like i get it anyway in the first place.. i just want my haz/mc/spy boost and thats it... heals optional.
hell if they make shelter/def self cast, then nerf/remove para, there will be no more bitching... y? cuz: anyone with PPU doesnt = teh win; just means u can make shit easier... ppus will still be useful in pvm as its the heal that keeps u alive, not just the shelter. apus will die a lot cuz when apus dont got a ppu up their ass they fuxed against another decent apu. spies/pe/tank wont bitch about apu+ppu teams cuz hey look the apu is paper!
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 02:01
Ok i'm starting to like the shelter/def self-cast only.
Actually doing something about paralyze and making self-cast shelter/def coudl be the answer!!!!!!!! :eek:
And then apus wouldn't be overpowered with ppus either!!!!! :eek: :eek:
And then ppus would still keep their defense. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Then we coudl work on boosting other classes. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
lol :)
Whatever it takes to get the current problems solved, I suppose...
I kinda like the idea of the self-cast stuff now actually, as well. :D
W00T WE HAVE A SOLUTION TO THE PPU PROBLEM!!!!1111oneoneone
PRAISE THE LORD! HALLELLUA!!!!
BREAK OUT THE BEER AND THE WOMEN ITS TIME TO PARTY!
(assuming kk gets the msg and makes it ingame :D)
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 02:29
Gungnir may I have your permission to make a Poll about self-cast deflector/shelters?
Bah.. shelter def selfcast is really a bad idea.
Why, cause if its self cast only all mobs or atleast the high lvl mobs need to get nerfed so the poor tankie wont die in one p00f at mc5.. same for apu who will die amazingly much more faster than the tank.
And following the dmg nerf of mobs it will go back to what the mobs was like before ppu's and there will hardly be any challange with thoose mobs.. And nerfed mob dmg wont do shit dmg whatso ever vs a ppu.. If you are unlucky in mc5 you might die as a ppu as it is today. But with nerfed dmg I highly doubt it. I dont mind dying if I made a mistake, same is in pvp. Cause a mistake can kill you and that should still be an option.
Optionally if shelters and def's gets self cast only the resist systems needs to be revorked for all the other classes to be able to withstand a non nerfed mob. Wich also is kind of the same as nerfing the dmg of the mob itself.. I can live with maby only be able to cast one of the two of preference of the team mates.. a tank wants shelters and a monk might want a def. and make the dual combo shelt/def self cast only on ppu.
Another drawback of no shelters and defs at all on ppl could be fights even with holy heals on them end's to quick.. and what would we have to do then increase the holy heal healness?.. Oh oh my good I can allready hear the whiners scream NERF me allready..
Erm...
This game is meant to be PvP oriented, not PvM oriented...
So what if the mobs would be shitweak? They could be good target practice (if balanced good enough) for people to fight before they go to the next step, Neofrag practice.
Also, you seem to be forgetting that other classes besides the PPU can cast buffs. 8| Isn't it neat?
Anyhoo...I think that's what most people want, ino -- fast, quick fights...the way things are, battles are either totally drawn out or become overkill because of the amount of effort, skills, and numbers needed to be powerful. It's like an arms race, ffs.
just think for a sec ok?.
You need to lvl to be able to do your holy pvp.. you dont want to do that if you even with a ppu arround die all the time..
and for you to be able to preform your holy pvp you need shit dropped by mobs.. Do I need to drag your ass to mc5 and leave you there so you can feel the love?.. Cause there are alot of you pvp lovahs that are dying to get one of those what you call them mc5 implants.
So that quickly ended the the game is only pvp oriented question.
Edit..
No I dont think everyone wants a nice fight to end in 10 seconds no.. all theese preporations made and buffing and whatever poking to get to battle stations well enough and then pfft 10 sec later its all over
My solution is would require a rather large rework, but here goes anyways.
Making monks Hybrids seems to be the only solution that makes sense. Currently the monks are they only class that is really two separate classes all together. APU's an PPU's are completely different, and you can hardly say that it is in any way similar to Rife vs. Pistol spy, melee vs. hc tank, etc. And lets not mention the ease of leveling difference between monks and the other classes, that is a whole other debate entirely. Some solutions to the current situation are as follows.
Separate spells (buffs, heals, etc) that are personal vs. spells that effect other players (similar to personal implant tool vs. remote implant tool) with spells that effect other players costing more both credit wise and make the stat requirement higher vs. the personal version. This would put buffs and the like more inline with the systems seen on most other MMO's where the stuff you cast on others is a bit harder to do. There should be no non-rare spells ( and very few if any rare ones ) that are any higher than any non monk class can cast on their self when capped.
Change system where MST skill is the main skill, apu (effect others, attack spells), ppu (effect self, defence spells). While doing this, the nurf for having both apu, and ppu will need to be removed, and perhaps a new point sink ( focus or something of the like, to effect range maybe ).
Make the higher heals, buffs, shields, and the like personal only. This leaves the really cool buffs for only the casting monk. Perhaps make some rare ones that effect others but make the stat requirement on those almost impossible, if not impossible without drugs.
Add note to the last one: Need to make it so you cannot have a really hardcore attack and have a really hardcore buff at the same time. With the additional point sink above it would be feasible to make calculate the point requirements so this can't happen.
Make a time limit for waiting for res, then default gr to apt. Time limit should be inline with most other MMORPGS out there, somewhere in the range of 5-10 minutes.
Remove freezers, or make freezer (spells included similar) in other words lower para or raise the guns to para's level. Every class should have access to equivalent freezing, or there should be none at all. Just that simple.
If you must keep freezers, make parashock apu. If its not Aggressive, I dunno what is. Its a attack spell pure and simple. It has nothing to do with defence, or at least no one uses it that way.
Any spell that causes damage to players or creatures should require apu points. If its hurts its agressive, nuff said.
Weaken monk armor and alternately counterbalance appropriate spells to increase the necessity to have ppu points.
Make Monk PA at no minus to apu or ppu, just let them choose which way they want to go and lower the bonus a little.
Let monks buy their PA like everyone else ffs!!!
Separate effects of some of the boosters ( or all ). Construction boost should be just that and nothing else ( unless theres a attribute boost associated with it ). This would further add to what things are chosen to go in the quickbelt if your going on a op run ppu style.
Make damage boost work like any other buff. Once its on its on no stacking, even on monsters.
Make higher buffs override lower buffs so those with more skill can help a newbie out.
Make buff dissipate once a monk dies or logs out, ie. he buffs someone and dies the buffs go bye-bye too.
Make resist psi work for something. Some might say this has something to do with monk uberness.
The effect of these methods together could more balance out the monk itself. There would be no apu or ppu, just monks. It should also put them closer to balance with the game, making them not really any more uber than anyone else just different. Most will need both apu and ppu to make life work for them. In this system there would be no advantage to making a pure ppu as the highest spells are personal anyway, and they have nothing that does any damage. Same goes for the apu as they would lack a ton of defence and as such would just die to easily without some ppu in there. The extra sink will in effect lower the overall power imbalance monks represent, making it take longer to be uber, and even then you cant be uber at everything, nor will you alone decide the battle in a op war. Of course other classes should have some modifications to make them more useful opfight wise as well and make them all just as needed, in order to accomplish the mission. Anyhow that's my two cents. Feel free to call me stupid. :)
KRIMINAL99
24-10-03, 02:50
I completely disagree with most of the people here. I think that PPU's wide range of special abilities should remain intact because they are needed in order to justify having a support only character.
The part that needs to be removed in my opinion, is their extreme defense value. I believe it is a chain of things which makes PPU's overpowered at the moment, and this link is the one that should be removed. This would go far in helping 1v1 against a PPU and group fights.
The best idea I have heard on how to do this is shield piercing or psychic feedback ammo\weapons. They could either A) do only a medium amount of damage but very shield piercing making them not as effective against lightly or non shielded targets, but able to kill Heavily shielded targets when other weapons would have trouble doing damage.
or B) do damage based on the amount of shielding the player has on. If the player is heavily shielded then it should do moderate damage.
In either case the PPU should not be EASY to kill with these weapons, maybe taking a minute or so longer (taking into account ppu healing and ability to dodge) than it would to kill a normal player who was just dodging and not shooting back. However if the PPU does not run and instead tries to stand and parashock or kill the player with a low tl dex weapon he should certainly die.
As people evaluate this, keep in mind:
-PPU's could no longer res someone while being attacked without fear of death. They would either have to wait till they are covered, or die in order to res one person (and only if they had holy rez) which would be pointless.
-Charging in the mist of enemies and parashocking everyone would probably get the PPU killed very quickly as he would be a main target. He would probably remain behind the others healing and buffing and only para/damage boosting players that charged his ranks.
-The weapons wouldnt negate the value of shields in battle if they were properly balnced. IE they shouldnt do that much damage compared to a normal weapon. You might use it on a fully shielded apu but it wouldnt kill him quickly enough to stop him from F'ing up you or one of your mates. For them to be able to kill a ppu a reasonable amount of time but still not kill other shielded classes quite so quickly it is possible they would have to effect psi healing somewhat as well.
-Tanks would be the only sure thing high defense characters again, regaining their identity
I guess I never said why I think they are overpowered did I? Well
they have all those special abilities and can not be stopped from using them without some luck and a lot of people. They can't be killed in 1v1 except MAYBE if an APU or someone with a tl 9 deflector gets lucky. (or the ppu is really bad) Both of these things make them overpowered.
As for the power of the APU/PPU combo I think that this should remain the same since both characters are supposed to be (and would be if these weapons/ammo were added) somewhat gimp by themselves. Maybe APU could use some slight tweaking to keep them in line with this idea. (slight ROF nerf or something.. obscene damage X 107 ROF = Who cares how little defense they have, j00 and ur friends dead b4 you can react) I like QD's idea about slightly nerfing energy and boosting their other attacks.
BTW What do you mean about all threads are about PPU/Parashock? Haven't yall seen the 90 billion PVP threads recently?
@ ino:
Interesting how you mentioned mc5; as far as I understand, if mobs were made weaker, we could have better access to those parts, ne?
We talked about how to make mobs weaker. Never talked about altering the exp. =)
Anyway, hybrids will most likely never come back... unlike most of our bitchings, hybrids seriously were not part of KK's equation to begin with..at least, the uber hybrids that made hybridocron what it was anyway.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 02:53
Originally posted by ino
just think for a sec ok?.
You need to lvl to be able to do your holy pvp.. you dont want to do that if you even with a ppu arround die all the time..
and for you to be able to preform your holy pvp you need shit dropped by mobs.. Do I need to drag your ass to mc5 and leave you there so you can feel the love?.. Cause there are alot of you pvp lovahs that are dying to get one of those what you call them mc5 implants.
So that quickly ended the the game is only pvp oriented question.
Edit..
No I dont think everyone wants a nice fight to end in 10 seconds no.. all theese preporations made and buffing and whatever poking to get to battle stations well enough and then pfft 10 sec later its all over
I level up solo. So i'm not understanding your point. People don't level in mc5 nor do they NEED mc5 chips. The only places which NEED a ppu is batqueen cave and apparition cave IMO.
Androth that's nice, but I don't think KK will completely rework monks. I seriously doubt that they will backtrack on all the work they did on pures. I think making shields self-cast is the first "realistic" solution.
I doubt the pvm section of this game is just to make you cool so you can pvp better.. Its supposed to be somewhat of a challenge to lvl aswell not just a dance upon roses for you to become uber.
One thin I just have to say about the massive role the ppu has as it is.. I think I've said it before or someone quoted me from ingame. The Ppu has all kinds of buffs tradeskill as combat skill alike cause the ppu is the class that hardly benefits of heaving them.. one ppu cant do all the tradeskills at the same time and all the different combat styles either to be able to benefit from all theese buffs. I think that is why you dont see Pe's the midrange class dont walk arround with something as powerful as a p-c boost 3.. or even tanks or spies. Imagine a capped apu walking arround with it's own psi combat 3 booster.. No dont see that happening.. It would just be too easy for other classes to benefit from powerful lvl3 boosts, If the game still is going to be like the more points you put in something the better you get.
Okay. Let's play your game.
For example, MC5 currently is a BITCH. Right?
If the mobs get toned down, they'll still be a challenge, just not 80-95% impossible alone.
Anything else?
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 03:03
Originally posted by ino
I doubt the pvm section of this game is just to make you cool so you can pvp better.. Its supposed to be somewhat of a challenge to lvl aswell not just a dance upon roses for you to become uber.
It is a challenge if you solo level and that's only sometimes. THere's only so much challenge you'll get from AI. With a ppu, THE WAY IT IS NOW, there is absolutely 0 challenge in leveling.
I said before I had lvled alot of chars alone without ppus aswell. Offcourse its a viable option. But if it would become like someone said here that mobs should only be target practice easy kills for ppl to become uber. It will be even more easy for ppl to lvl by them selfs. U might be able to solo the grave without problem, batqueen, mc5 and all the other boss caves.
And I do belive you have had somewhat help from a ppu sometime during yer lvling to make it easier and faster, I sure wanted one to help me at times. Because that is what the ppu does, makes the lvling alittle bit easier for ppl and not as longdrawn as it is sometimes to kill a chaser alone..
Edit. No challenge in lvling. No it's not that amazingly challenging at highlvls no. But you can even increase the dmg output from mobs to make it challenging even with a ppu. But then it would be harder to lvl alone and increase the dependance of the ppu even more.
In the begining the lvling can be somewhat challenging alone aswell as with a ppu.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 03:06
Originally posted by ino
I said before I had lvled alot of chars alone without ppus aswell. Offcourse its a viable option. But if it would become like someone said here that mobs should only be target practice easy kills for ppl to become uber. It will be even more easy for ppl to lvl by them selfs. U might be able to solo the grave without problem, batqueen, mc5 and all the other boss caves.
And I do belive you have had somewhat help from a ppu sometime during yer lvling to make it easier and faster, I sure wanted one to help me at times. Because that is what the ppu does, makes the lvling alittle bit easier for ppl and not as longdrawn as it is sometimes to kill a chaser alone..
I'm just curious, how would it be easier for people to level by themselves? KK would only hafta tone down SOME mobs. The mc5 mobs, MAYBE y reps and maybe doy bots. That's pretty much it. All the other mobs could stay the same, and there would be a bit more challenge since you couldn't get shelter from a ppu.
I told you some posts up if shelters become self cast only the toned down Highlvl mobs like mc5 and reps will be so amazingly easy to survive as a ppu.. I doubt a ppu would ever be able to die pvm if badass mobs got toned down.
And as I said earlier aswell.. Fights even might end to fast for it to give any enjoyment without shelters and stuff.. I can live with one of the two to be castable on others than ppu.. The person have to decide that himself.. That works for some bossmobs aswell. Some caves have 2 kinds of dmg so that might get challenging aswell
Uhhh....
*scratches his head* O_o
If you're preferring team combat, I said those areas'd still be a challenge; I just didn't say how hard they'd be after the toning. :D
Since you're still talking about the benefits of the PPU... *looks back up* Hm.
The Ppu has all kinds of buffs tradeskill as combat skill alike cause the ppu is the class that hardly benefits of heaving them..
So then this, among more, justifies to you how godlike PPU is, eh? Might wanna watch what you post.
We aren't focusing on those skill bonus crap things anyway, BUT, if you want to tack that onto the current issues, that are parashock and damage boost, and their hard-to-kill-ism, be my guest. :)
(Psst, Shadow, you broke 2k posts =O )
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 03:13
Originally posted by ino
I told you some posts up if shelters become self cast only the toned down Highlvl mobs like mc5 and reps will be so amazingly easy to survive as a ppu.. I doubt a ppu would ever be able to die pvm if badass mobs got toned down.
You said solo level. PPus don't solo level.
You have to be specific about your concerns or people will get confused.
Now i'm sure KK could make a new damage type that bypass shelters and give that to a few super badass mobs only. That way the ppu wuold still have to be extremely careful teh way he is now. Like the chaos minions in teh caves, shelter doesn't help against them. Or if it does, very very little.
sex :p
Kenjuten.. ok first Shadow dancer said earlier in this thread that what he thought to be one of the biggest problems with the ppu is the huge role it posses. All theese buffs Im talking about is one of the things that I think only will be allrllright to give to the ppu cause it doesnt benefit from them as the others would to.
I dont get what this would point out in my statement that I justify ppus beeing invincible?. Its just a statement to counter some ppls hate twoards ppu.. And that is infact they can take to much dmg according to them and that there is a to big reliance on the ppu's in general. To many roles as some ppl say it.
I do think you understand what I mean shadow about the toning down the high lvl mobs??.
I can make it even clearer for you. If you would tone down the dmg dealt by lets say the mc5 mobs, to justify the lack of shelters on others. Now lets assume a apu dies in mc5 then all the mc5 bastards gets pretty damn upset at the one person still alive, Namly me the ppu.. if I still can have my shelter and my deflector and whatever the dmg they do to me would be pfft, a ress there will be just the same as ressing someone infront of a aggy captain. Too easy. And I dont want anyone to remotly think I suggest that shelters and defs would be removed...
EDIT.. didnt see the "special shelter by passing dmg from hell" post you made there.. Well maby.. sure that might work. But what kinda dmg will that be that can hurt me with shelters on that wont slaughter ppl without.? insta poison like the caves maby.. Well In whatever way someone feels like changing the ppus and it's roles It needs to be tested alot so the game wont become fucked up..
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 03:26
Originally posted by ino
I can make it even clearer for you. If you would tone down the dmg dealt by lets say the mc5 mobs, to justify the lack of shelters on others. Now lets assume a apu dies in mc5 then all the mc5 bastards gets pretty damn upset at the one person still alive, Namly me the ppu.. if I still can have my shelter and my deflector and whatever the dmg they do to me would be pfft, a ress there will be just the same as ressing someone infront of a aggy captain. Too easy. And I dont want anyone to remotly think I suggest that shelters and defs would be removed...
and i said
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Now i'm sure KK could make a new damage type that bypass shelters and give that to a few super badass mobs only. That way the ppu wuold still have to be extremely careful teh way he is now. Like the chaos minions in teh caves, shelter doesn't help against them. Or if it does, very very little.
sex :p
go back in browser I didnt want to do the forbidden double post that will get niddy pissed at me :)
Well as long as the ideas who might get in to the game doesnt fuck me over as a ppu Im willing to try them out.. Fuck me over and thats that for the game for me.. sad as it is but as a ppu you always have something to do even if you are capped. not only pvp but lvl ppl if you like to do that kind of stuff
Well, not to be condescending, but many people feel fucked over by PPUs right now...I don't think you'd be that dedicated to the game anyway if you'd leave when you think PPUs get fucked over when a particular patch rolls here that radically alters our current situation not to your liking.
When I say fucked over I mean no more meaning to play the class at all..
And fucked over by ppu's.. yes that may be if you are a solo pvper.. IT IS HARD to kill and win vs a team with one or more ppus with your team not heaving one or less than the team you are fighting but ppl can and make it happen..
And while we are talking about fucked over, you think all theese threads are fun to read. one of the crazy ideas some ppl have might actually get in to the game cause every thread about this damn subject is like 10+ Pages..
Im not saying that you is one of theese ppl, but there are ppl I know of here that whines and bitches about boohoo ppus suck remove them!!. who I have helped lvl and they are the first mothers to scream their throats off at whatever lvling place their at about HEAL ME buff me do this do that bohooo im dying bla bla..
And then the person is capped (after powelvling in the tg caves for example) and just as I said before turns arround 360 degrees and say fuck the ppu's they suck they ruin the game for me.. What do you thing their behaviour does to the ppu players enjoyment of the game?
So as the progress of the hateness vs the ppu's a change for us is almost to await. I just hope it will be reasonable so I can still enjoy playing now and then.
Hehe I removed my word of choice from fuckover in the end there to change :) I got carried away :)
I think we have all come to one easy and viable solution after reading all the posts:
Oddly I don't think deflector/shelter self cast is a bad idea, in fact MC5 should be hard, don't be selfish the game would be more fun if more effort is needed to obtain the best things. Plus you don't need MC5 parts to live, they are a high level players hobby. Fine it might take an entire clan to hunt in MC5, but thats the point isn't it.
Yes Neocron is a pvp game, but half of the time people pvm, and its fun for the mobs to have a challenge too and it is neccesary because people don't pvp all the time.
Someone suggested to remove the PPUs ability to defend himself or make him weaker , but that will be pointless because pvp will just become the game of killing the opponents ppu first.
Everyone has said the advantages of deflector/shelter self cast before so I have little to say, but that small tweak can already fix most of the problem of the PPUs gigantic significance currently, yes hunting will be harder but i'll accept it as a challenge now, and ppus can still be important because they can still boost and heal.
However there is a critical problem to that solution, it does not do anything or what so ever to stop another major problem in the game, that is a PPU will still be able to ress people in the middle of hell. I suggest the quick fix would be synaptic impairment for both sides. This way the PPU cannnot immedietely ress another person, and the ressed person cannot immedietely participate in combat, there is also little point in him ressing because he will lose his abilities once he does it, so he can only rezz after the battle between OP fights.
Which leaves parashock, I say it is neccesary to stop pvp from being insane, but holy paralysis is ridiculous so that needs to be toned down, huge psi cost as someone said would be a good idea, yeah I accept being able to glue your opponent to the ground, but please make it cost.
Now in conclusion everyone will be happy until we will lead into the next problem that Tanks might be over powered, and I would like to suggest that vehicles can penetrate through tough armor and shields, thus adding a use to vehicles in their final counter against unkillable PPUs and overpowered tanks.
And yes it needs to be solved! Neocron is dying, there isn't much time left to wait. I have waited enough. It is when saying it takes an "act of god" to win a team with a extra ppu that really worries me. So what if there are exceptions in defeating PPUs, the fact is still clear that the imbalance is reflected in the games culture and language. PPUs are reffered as immortals or even gods in game talk.
I hope this post manages to address all the problems currently.
....
How about something that HASN'T been addressed yet?
Sorry Rai, fantastic post of yours, but I just had an idea.
How about we lower the stun % of Holy Parashock?
Occasionally I see posts about how annoying it is to not even be able to turn around when HP'd..
Instead of increasing manacost or decreasing the RoF, how about we fiddle around with all the Parashock-series stun % rates and timers?
Lol that was funny, hey I have a ppu and actually the rest of the parashock series isn't that powerful, its just holy paralysis is insane.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 06:44
Rai, in reference to your posts I want to address two issues.
The RES issue. Well um I figured maybe there could be a limit to the number of times you could res someone. Like twice, then the third time they die they auto GR.
OR
A decay time. If you don't res them within 5 minutes they auto-GR.
As for the parashock issue, as I said i'm going to be completely stubborn. Even a reduced % stun is not enough. Since shelter/deflector will be self-cast only, that means that person will have an even SMALLER chance of surviving if their parashocked. As I said it should be removed or made PvM only.
:p
QuantumDelta
24-10-03, 07:20
For the people concerned about things like MC5 and other PvM Problems that might be an after effect of toning down the ppu, KK can, and have in the past changed the attack strength and HP Levels of mobs across the board to cope with balance issues.
Self-Cast S/D sounds fine to me (it fixes a few ...cough exploits too), my only slight concern is that the PE would become useful in op wars :lol: Tanks might complain about having to fight a fair fight against them.... :p
Self-Cast S/D, Removal of Parashock, and a somewhat notable reduction of holy heal.
Also balancing of the rezz issue.....
I would think that;
Rezz could have a timer saying how long you have to rezz a person, and after the time is up (3 min?) their corpse fades to black and their SCREEN fades to black as well.
Rule does not apply in hunting zones^
This would mean that PvM would have to be toned down a fair bit, but I think it's alright.
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 07:28
If s/d is selfcast, why would heal need a "notable" seduction?
And I don't see why PvM would hafta be toned down, only a very few specific mobs. Normally the ones people DON'T level on, like Y replicants, mc5 mizzobs. etc...
Set aside all of your thoughts about what spells and abilities are overpowered, just for a moment, please, and consider this idea as an alternative. An idea that potentially lets a team of non-monks defeat a team that does include PPUs ... a scenario that is not likely to succeed as things stand today. I see this as a possible approach to solving monkacron that does not include monkeys. Nor does it necessarily involve nerfing spells.
My notion is that the fact that PPUs are so hard to kill using strictly conventional weapons (cannons, rifles, pistols) means that that fact over emphasizes the powers of monks. That if they were tweeked so that they COULD be reasonably killed by regular weapons, their powers would not seem so unbalanced.
So my suggestion is this: do not nerf their powers at all, leave them alone for now, and instead make PPUs more killable, not easily killable mind you, just more killable.
If a sub-unit of three or four shooters were to have a "reasonable chance" of killing a PPU, i think that would go a long way to solving the overall problem. To my mind it doesnt matter so much how deadly a foe may be, so long as you have a reasonable chance of killing him/her even if it requires the assistance of other people. Note that PPUs would still be tough to kill, but not rendered moot by nerfs, nor would they be able to laugh at the gunfire from 6 or 7 guys all shooting at them continuously to no effect.
Depending on how this approach was actually implemented, it might require that this only applied to war zones, so as not to jeopardize basic leveling abilities.
As a part of this, you would also look at the buffs thrown on other character classes and how hard it is to kill them, the idea being to establish and/or reaffirm design goals on how hard it should be to kill different types of characters. From best to least protected, for capped and and well thought out characters, it might be something like this: Tanks, PPUs, PEs, APUs, Spys. Juggle the order however you like, i am not wedded to this one, it just needs to be carefully thought out with changes applied to buffing spells and/or armor to meet the desired design goal. Careful thought also needs to be given in detail as to how they can be killed, in what ways, and by what other mix of classes. If you dont do this, you are likely to merely shift the problem to some other character class.
Then revisit monks once more. Now that you can sometimes defeat a monk team with a non-monk team and sometimes not - do any of the spells REALLY need to be modified? Even if they do seem rather powerful? Perhaps not. But perhaps so, perhaps it is needed to help counter situations where one team has a whole flock of monks and the other has little to none. My guess though is that once PPUs *can* actually be killed by regular weapons, spell changes wont have to be as radical as currently being recommended.
As a side note, by way of cautioning against over nerfing, i for one do not believe that a hellaciously effective spell is necessarilly unbalanced ... because that is not what balance means when it comes to overall game design. For example, a well balanced character class COULD be one that is awesomely deadly, far beyond that of any other class, but is also far easier to kill than most other classes ... this COULD be the definition of an APU for spells or even Spys with sniper rifles. Similarly one Tank can potentially kill another Tank, but it could take several APUs or multiple non-Tanks/non-Monks to kill a Tank ... and that could also be seen as "balanced" within the context of a design.
Comments?
Spook
QuantumDelta
24-10-03, 07:44
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
If s/d is selfcast, why would heal need a "notable" seduction?
And I don't see why PvM would hafta be toned down, only a very few specific mobs. Normally the ones people DON'T level on, like Y replicants, mc5 mizzobs. etc... because people would still bitch and whine about unkillable PPUs.
I'm not talking a killer heal nerf, just something like 25% of holy heal...
Self cast S/D really does suit me now I think about it... it suits me as a PPU and it suits me as a PE.
I think it'd only be APUs that lose out on the deal, for the obvious reasons (PPU + APU for our current patch level).
What I like most of all, is everything except the rezz, is easy to implement :p
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 07:51
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
because people would still bitch and whine about unkillable PPUs.
y?
If what ppus can do is toned down to the point where one team doesn't have an overpowering influence by having a ppu(or more ppus) then it doesn't matter if the ppu is still unkillable. If he can only heal/damage boost, but he can't parashock or res underfire, then it's not a big deal if he's unkillable. sex
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I think it'd only be APUs that lose out on the deal, for the obvious reasons (PPU + APU for our current patch level).
?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
What I like most of all, is everything except the rezz, is easy to implement :p
Yes, out of all the ideas thrown forth to balance ppus I think this is the most realistic and easiest one to implement.
i want to make a poll, just wanna get gungnir's permission first. Also it would help if some of the big name ppus also voted yes on the poll. *cough*
Spook...........................huh?
Well, Shadow Dancer, i may very well be out in left field on this one, but i just cant help but feel that people have gone overboard on the PPU issue and are proposing all kinds of radical changes that just arent necessary. And that something more basic and fundamental would be a better starting point ... which i suggested in my post. I dunno. If what i proposed is off track it will be ignored; if not, maybe it will spur useful discussion. [shrug]
Spook
Shadow Dancer
24-10-03, 08:18
Originally posted by MegaCorp
Well, Shadow Dancer, i may very well be out in left field on this one, but i just cant help but feel that people have gone overboard on the PPU issue and are proposing all kinds of radical changes that just arent necessary. And that something more basic and fundamental would be a better starting point ... which i suggested in my post. I dunno. If what i proposed is off track it will be ignored; if not, maybe it will spur useful discussion. [shrug]
Spook
Oh. IMO self-cast shields IS basic and fundamental.
And TBH I don't think your solution would help since PPUs would still have the same importance, and you can't really tone down their defense ENOUGH to make a difference without making it pointless for htem to be ppu.
Original monk
24-10-03, 11:32
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
because people would still bitch and whine about unkillable PPUs.
i couldnt resist answering to this one :) and i must say you are right about the unkillable ppu whining. I even think that people wont stop nagging on ppu's until KK does the same as they did with the hybrids, thats the way it seems to go these times, they have seen it once with hybrids and they want it again, remember all this started out as a nerf the parashock discussion and ended up in nerf every aspect of the ppu .... i really wonder whats next, and i think KK made a precedent by nerfing a class to dead or atleast thats how people think the way "balancing" should go lately, what a pitty
QuantumDelta
24-10-03, 13:05
Seems the german community more or less agrees with us, in that there is a problem, but it doesn't warrent destroying PPUs...
Seems the french community like their PPUs they way they are :p
SD Can go pwn them if he likes, but I'm not going to yell at them :p
I think the easest to implement solution would still be to half the efficiency of foreign heals and maybe making resurect giving some cummulative SI to the caster.
What worries me about removing foreign cast shelters and deflectors is the tank. Right now tanks, PEs and nearly also spies seem balanced to me, the tank beeing a little less efficient in duels due to the PEs defense and ability to use stealth, but more powerfull in tactical team combat with an PPU on his side. If we make shields self cast only the tank might start getting the short end of the stick.
I have read some of the posts in this thread but could not be assed reading all of them.
I keep seeing people moan on and on about PPU's and APU's in op wars. You go ON AND ON AND ON about para shock yet you really dont seem to see the ONE and ONLY major problem with NC.
NC DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH PLAYERS FOR THE CHARACTER CLASSES TO BALANCE OUT IN GAME.
PPU's and APU's ARE not the only options for op wars.
If BOTH sides have PPU's and APU's then both sides are balanced out to a degree. PPU's can para shock...yes, BUT PPU's can also REMOVE para shock. (on my monk I ALLWAYS have my anti shock equiped).
PPU's are NOT invincible. Since the introduction of DEBUFFS PPU's are vulnerable as hell in op wars for the simple fact that they are so important to both sides that they tend to draw a lot of fire till they are taken out of the fight.
TANKS ARE IMPORTANT IN OP WARS. Dont give me any bullshit about tanks being a waste of time...Maybe NC has become MONK-O-CRON but ONLY because so many people jumped to the conclusion that APU's are sooo UBER. PPU's are still the character class with the fewest members IMO (mostly because PPU needs a team mate to do practically anything).
TANKS ARE IMPORTANT in op wars and this is coming from months of op wars. 2 sides with eqaul numbers of PPU's. One side has 4 APU's the other side has 2 APU's and 2 TANKS there is a good chance the TANK side will win. TANKS are ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT factors in an op war. WITHOUT TANK SUPPORT in the team your chances of winning drop significantly. YES APU's can outdmg a TANK BUT Tanks still do a LOT of dmg and more importantly a Tank with proper PPU support can stay alive in an op war a LOT longer than ANY other class and therefore keep an op war alive.
SPIES and PE's are also IMPORTANT to op wars but they are rarely used as they should be.
SPIES ARE NOT FRONTLINE TROOPS. Spies should be used in a harrasing role. Spies and PE's can do one thing no other class can do effectively. They can get behind the enemy and cause all sorts of shit. 2 SPIES constantly hitting an attacking team from the rear can effectively split the attacking side up.
PE's can be used as front line troops to a degree but lack the dmg dealing capacity of tanks and APU's.
All in all I cant be assed sitting here all day arguing about it. NC in my honest opinion is SCREWED down to one simple fact.
WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH PLAYERS for the teams to work and NC IS ALL ABOUT TEAM WORK.
SO WHAT a clan with PPU's against a clan with no PPU's will win.
THERE IS A REASON PPU's are the BUSIEST DAMN PEOPLE IN NC ( at least in pluto anyway).
THIS IS BECAUSE WE ARE SO FEW IN NUMBER and apparently not exciting enough for most people to play as.
STOP WHINING ABOUT HOW UBER PPU'S ARE and lets get a few more people playing as PPU's. MORE PPU's in the damn game and the clans will get balanced out. MORE PLAYERS IN THE GAME and we will have more players in each char class. SEE HOW IT WORKS!!!
PLAYER BASE IS THE PROBLEM. FIX THAT AND THE REST OF THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WILL BE LARGELY SORTED.
ghandisfury
24-10-03, 16:51
Originally posted by petek480
The only way to make it so that a team with more ppus won't win is if you make shelter/deflector selfcast only. Leaving ppus with only healing, buffing, and resurrection. I've even said this before but people said it would leave ppus useless, don't know how, but they seems positive it would:rolleyes:
That is incorrect, and you know it. Deflector and shelter and heal ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!! The problem are with parashock, damage boost, and resserection. If my ideas were implemented, a team without a PPU would still have a very good chance at winning because the team *with* the PPU would not have an endless amount of people.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
That is incorrect, and you know it. Deflector and shelter and heal ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!! The problem are with parashock, damage boost, and resserection. If my ideas were implemented, a team without a PPU would still have a very good chance at winning because the team *with* the PPU would not have an endless amount of people.
Para shock is the problem, i think DB is fine.
I like the idea of a small ammount of SI when i cast res though.
Some was talking a about lvling SOLO i lvled my monk 100% solo and my spy killed warbots from using a MR100 solo, and was in the aggies till them. Now I'm a ppu. U don't have to lvl in a team as a PPU u just ave to lvl as a apu then LOM (Granted i was a 56/22 ** hybrid when i left the aggie cellars ):D
ghandisfury
24-10-03, 17:01
Originally posted by Birkoff
Para shock is the problem, i think DB is fine.
I like the idea of a small ammount of SI when i cast res though.
No damage boost is not "fine". At the click of a button you can reduce a well setup tank (talking resists here) to a poorly setup spies defences.
Parashock needs to be removed, as do all freezers.
And if you add SI to resserection then you have just created a huge timesinc for hunting. I don't want this....I don't want things to change while hunting. I want them to change in battle. Take note that all of my ideas (posted on the front page) will not effect you durring hunting. Also take note that it's not like many people have said "make it only work in warzones"......that won't work either because people HUNT in warzones. And even if you do add SI you are still not solving the problem.
Vampire222
24-10-03, 17:33
fucking crybabies...a pe has dmgboost too, did anyone cry about a pe using that yet? second of all... the tl3 heal is effective enough in conjunction with antibuff to kill a ppu, i really dont see why ppl keep crying about ppus being too powerfull.. u cant kill a mc5 commander alone too
think about the goddamn inbalance ud get if ppus were totally nerfed... u attack someone, and he just runs like fuck and stealths... thats what will happen, at op wars, everywhere
Originally posted by ghandisfury
No damage boost is not "fine". At the click of a button you can reduce a well setup tank (talking resists here) to a poorly setup spies defences.
But you don't hear the people whining when they use it on PPUs.. hmmm.
Jaggeh had an idea which I liked (not sure if he posted). Something like this...
When you cast parashock on a target it automatically freezes them, however the PPU has to maintain the lock to keep them frozen and it ticks down thier PSI pool. Once the pool is 0 or the lock is broken (eg. casts another spell) and the victim has to be retargetted again.
Yes it is still para but you can shoot the PPU or have the PPU distracted on one person while casting it so they can't do anything else.
Originally posted by Zokk
1.) Make all monks hybrid.
2.) Balance them to put them in line with the other classes.
3.) Remove parashock and freezer weapons completely from the game.
4.) Make higher TL spells override lower TL spells.
5.) Give spies the technological equivalent of resurrection so there is no single class that is more important than the others.
6.) Adjust the power of the mobs to reflect these changes.
This is the last PPU/Monk balancing thread I will post on ever again. I'm sick of discussing it, I'm sick of the people who think that everything is fine, and I'm sick of thinking that KK is ignoring our pleads for balance.
This is my idea, I have contributed a working solution to the problem. May you have the sense to use it, or something better.
I'm done discussing it.
Right. That is pretty much about it, except for the "Hybrid" thing. And instead of "adjust the power of mobs" I would go for "introduce some mobs that are immune to magic or darn hard to kill in general".
ghandisfury
24-10-03, 20:08
Originally posted by Vampire222
fucking crybabies...a pe has dmgboost too, did anyone cry about a pe using that yet? second of all... the tl3 heal is effective enough in conjunction with antibuff to kill a ppu, i really dont see why ppl keep crying about ppus being too powerfull.. u cant kill a mc5 commander alone too
think about the goddamn inbalance ud get if ppus were totally nerfed... u attack someone, and he just runs like fuck and stealths... thats what will happen, at op wars, everywhere
I didn't say remove damage boost, I said rework it. It needs to work as it does on mobs (+1.15 damage first__+1.5 damage second__+1.8 damage third).....and I never said it was "OK" for PEs to use it. The huge difference is that a PE cannot spam it.
As far as my ideas go they are_not a nerf. They are a balance to PvP situations. There would be absolutely no difference in a hunting situation.....which is why I hope that KK follows ONLY my ideas....everybody else is crying for a nerf on shelters, sheilds, heals, which are all balanced. They need to be crying about the spells that aren't balanced.
Originally posted by Archeus
But you don't hear the people whining when they use it on PPUs.. hmmm.
Jaggeh had an idea which I liked (not sure if he posted). Something like this...
When you cast parashock on a target it automatically freezes them, however the PPU has to maintain the lock to keep them frozen and it ticks down thier PSI pool. Once the pool is 0 or the lock is broken (eg. casts another spell) and the victim has to be retargetted again.
Yes it is still para but you can shoot the PPU or have the PPU distracted on one person while casting it so they can't do anything else.
I don't care who you use it on, it's unbalanced. As for the parashock idea....it keeps it in the game, which is exactly what I (and others) don't want. It has no place in an FPS-skill based game.
hmmm ... I always thought this is a MMORPG with a FPS-style combat, not an FPS with many players and some "roleplay" elements. But maybe I'm wrong or can't read ... Actually you guys can be lucky KK didn't add other "bad" status effects ... you would be pissed beyond imagination :p
This is a team-based game. If you can't play in a team or try to kill some players 1v1 you have to accept the fact that you cannot kill everyone.
In the end I would not want to nerf one class but wait for some bugs getting removed (i.e. anti-freeze drugs). I hate it when people are hammering on the same spot over and over without taking a look to the whole thing ... And it's sad people only discuss about PvP while their solutions have severe impact on the rest of the gameplay (i.e. removing parashock/parashock deals no damage ... how shall PPUs do epics? Fist fight a la "come back in 15 mins then you are maybe dead"?)
Btw: I remember how resurrection worked in beta ... there was a bug so people had to be rezzed 2 times more often than not and even worse: the rezzed person had SI (because of the 2 rezzes even worse than normal). Rezzing people in an OP-war was out of question, during a hunt it would have been ok with a non-bugged rez.
Originally posted by Spex
This is a team-based game. If you can't play in a team or try to kill some players 1v1 you have to accept the fact that you cannot kill everyone.
Yes this is a team-based game, but ppus have too much of an impact on any kind of pvp situation right now. You take one team, 2 tanks, 2 apus, 2 spies, 2 pes and a seccond with 1 tank/apu and 1 ppu. The tank/apu and ppu will win. Now that shouldn't be like that. There both in teams like the game is designed to be played, but the team with the ppu has an insane advantage over the team without one which means it's inbalanced. Now a easy way to fix that would be make shelter/deflector selfcast only. PPUs would still be important, but wouldn' have too much influence.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
It has no place in an FPS-skill based game.
How about in a TPS-skill based game? :p Which is how everyone plays.
Alpha-Omega
24-10-03, 22:41
Originally posted by Traxus
I think the easest to implement solution would still be to half the efficiency of foreign heals and maybe making resurect giving some cummulative SI to the caster.
What worries me about removing foreign cast shelters and deflectors is the tank. Right now tanks, PEs and nearly also spies seem balanced to me, the tank beeing a little less efficient in duels due to the PEs defense and ability to use stealth, but more powerfull in tactical team combat with an PPU on his side. If we make shields self cast only the tank might start getting the short end of the stick.
I have to confess I'm not worried about the tank getting grabbed by the short-n-curlys and for good reason.
The GenTanks were bred for fighting in the Ceres war, they had no monks, spies or PEs backing them up. All they had was themselves.
The Tanks shouldn't be relying on monks for strength, rather the tanks should have a way of supporting each-other and not just with covering fire.
GenTanks were bred for Strength, Endurance, Speed, Bravery, Bigass guns with bigass damage and for being SELF-SUFFICIENT ON THE BATTLEFIELD!
They didn't have monks namby-pambing them on the battle-field, they would have developed and been given ways of supporting each-other.
In a group, tanks should have a damage BONUS due to inbuilt genetic code that allows them to work well as a team and co-ordinate their weapon-fire on the right place and do more damage due to the other GenTanks in their squad being able to give a form of telepathic relay about an enemies weaknesses.
The GenTank is the least ballanced for hunting solo of all the classes atm as he is not self-sufficient w/o gimping himself. Oh and as for the PPUs who say they can't hunt? Your Soul Clusters and medium level rifles/pistols are more than enough with your heavy defenses.
Tanks were nerfed to hell a LONG while back and just ballanced for the times. News people! Times are changing. Hell, i've seen Spies soloing tanks of the same level in PvP and win now because of their changes. PEs are stronger than ever i think (except when the Libby was the king of all guns, then they were gods) and are really about as ballanced as they can become! Same with Spies as with their stealth tools they gained the tactical element that should have always been theirs. APU monks are, on their own, perfect. The hardest hitters in the game but the frailest due to their low health and lack of defense spells (hell, i wouldn't even begrudge them the TL-3 heal if it was made just pure mastery!).
Tanks? Mebbe the mods oughta set a thread up to deal with the mass influx of screams for fixed tanks soon! It is gonna happen as they RELY on PPUs far moreso than any other class (except possibly APUs).
ghandisfury
24-10-03, 22:48
Originally posted by Archeus
How about in a TPS-skill based game? :p Which is how everyone plays.
I don't know what a TPS is....sorry.:confused:
Originally posted by Alpha-Omega
I have to confess I'm not worried about the tank getting grabbed by the short-n-curlys and for good reason.
The GenTanks were bred for fighting in the Ceres war, they had no monks, spies or PEs backing them up. All they had was themselves.
The Tanks shouldn't be relying on monks for strength, rather the tanks should have a way of supporting each-other and not just with covering fire.
GenTanks were bred for Strength, Endurance, Speed, Bravery, Bigass guns with bigass damage and for being SELF-SUFFICIENT ON THE BATTLEFIELD!
They didn't have monks namby-pambing them on the battle-field, they would have developed and been given ways of supporting each-other.
In a group, tanks should have a damage BONUS due to inbuilt genetic code that allows them to work well as a team and co-ordinate their weapon-fire on the right place and do more damage due to the other GenTanks in their squad being able to give a form of telepathic relay about an enemies weaknesses.
The GenTank is the least ballanced for hunting solo of all the classes atm as he is not self-sufficient w/o gimping himself. Oh and as for the PPUs who say they can't hunt? Your Soul Clusters and medium level rifles/pistols are more than enough with your heavy defenses.
Tanks were nerfed to hell a LONG while back and just ballanced for the times. News people! Times are changing. Hell, i've seen Spies soloing tanks of the same level in PvP and win now because of their changes. PEs are stronger than ever i think (except when the Libby was the king of all guns, then they were gods) and are really about as ballanced as they can become! Same with Spies as with their stealth tools they gained the tactical element that should have always been theirs. APU monks are, on their own, perfect. The hardest hitters in the game but the frailest due to their low health and lack of defense spells (hell, i wouldn't even begrudge them the TL-3 heal if it was made just pure mastery!).
Tanks? Mebbe the mods oughta set a thread up to deal with the mass influx of screams for fixed tanks soon! It is gonna happen as they RELY on PPUs far moreso than any other class (except possibly APUs).
It's para. All para does is take all the advantages a class has and throws them out the window. Resists, speed, strength, everything a class has doesn't mean anything anymore. The only thing that matters is damage. The class that does the most damage(apu) will be the only class needed.
QuantumDelta
24-10-03, 23:03
.......
If Monks, in the storyline, truly had developed tanks to be the ultimate fighting machine, something unbeatable...something that wasn't pathetic.
They would have given it a life span of a few years.
The crahn monks didn't care for having an army of ultimate warriors, they just wanted troops they could throw at the enemy until the enemy was exaughsted.
Tanks would fire off a couple of bursts at a warbot, and die.
Their team would finish the warbot off.
Tanks were mass produced, mass produced things SUCK ASS for quality (this is also the argument used for the weapons in A&W etc), not only that, but takes are out of date, since there's NO WAY in hell anyone would still be working on weapons for such a thing after the war.
After the war, there was no purpose for tanks.
No purpose = No use.
No use = No support.
Meh.
Progenitor
24-10-03, 23:10
Originally posted by Progenitor
Thinking of balance:
Make Anit-* drugs work better.
Make PSI resist work aganst/with PPU spells (Apu spells damage types already have resists aganst them) Only downside is that there would be a chance that non-self cast heals and what not would have a greater chance of failing and not working due to the targets psi-resist. Self cast spells should ignore psi-resist
If not psi resist, make Energy resist work aganist para spells.
Reduce Holy Para to slightly greater than that of Maulers. Increase Para Barrel to slightly less than current Holy Para. Give Maulers that as their para. Barrels have increadably poor range and the ppu would more often than not para himself along with any friendlies in the area. The mana cost and frequency needs to be played with a bit.
Perhaps even give melee tanks some sort of immunity to para, so that they can counter the ppu.
Death should cause a drug flash while you wait around - you are dead after all - it should be hard to see anything. Upon resurection, you should have slight SI - you just were brought back from the dead, it's a shocking experience. The bonus from resurection is that you don't pop any implants and don't have to GR back to your belt/backpack. Perhaps even make the SI based on how long you have been dead.
All monks should have a chance of spell fizzle when hit by enemy fire. Especially force damage. Make it dependant on the handling of the spell - handling needs to do something anyway. Want to stop a monk casting resurection - pepper them with force damage.
-p
From the latest Neocronicle:
"... Our labs are working on finding enzymes or amino acids that could help the body absorb those agents quicker."
Well it looks like at least some of our ideas are getting through to them. :)
-p
If half you people had an effective PPU in your clan you wouldnt whine so much about PPU's.
PPU's are not the problem...The problem for all of the moaners is the LACK of PPU's in the game which means that sometimes in op wars and battles one side has a PPU and the other doesnt.
Doesnt make the PPU unbalanced, makes the mix of players unbalanced. GET IT STRAIGHT. PPU on each side and they cancel each other out. BOTH can do the same boosts and shocks and BOTH have the ability to remove those same effects from there own team.
NOTHING wrong with para. I have never seen a battle yet where both clans had PPU's but moaned afterwards about the use of para shock.
QUIT whining....Get a PPU in your clan or reroll your character to PPU but pls for gods sake stop moaning just because you get killed sometimes.
Originally posted by Garet
PPU's are not the problem...The problem for all of the moaners is the LACK of PPU's in the game which means that sometimes in op wars and battles one side has a PPU and the other doesnt.
DUDE WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN? LACK OF PPUS? I don't think so. I know on pluto that pretty mcuh every clan is made up by monks.
QuantumDelta
25-10-03, 03:01
LoL...
I am avoiding replying to Garet.... just a mine field of flames would come spewing fourth....
however even as a PPU i can't agree with him :p
Shadow Dancer
25-10-03, 03:04
Originally posted by petek480
DUDE WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN? LACK OF PPUS? I don't think so. I know on pluto that pretty mcuh every clan is made up by monks.
Damnit that's not true. Look at Dark. They have a diverse and varied clan, full of runners of all types of classes and skills.........................................
yea
lack of ppus? hahahahaa!!!
To me there are enough PPUs, just a bit too much APUs thats all
KRIMINAL99
25-10-03, 09:51
I don't think people are really thinking through these changes really well and trying to look at them from all sides.
They aren't going to completely change the game from what it is now, this far into retail... or at least they shouldn't. Pure apu and Ppus both have their own identity, people may only like one or the other. Changing all monks to hybrids could bring up so many new issues and would be a step backwards as far as content.
All the rest of the stuff seems to fall into the category of nerfing their abilities, the worst of which being self cast only def/shields (??) If there is going to be a whole class dedicated only to support, he has to have the range of abilities that ppus have now in order for it to be even remotely fun. Shielding friends is important for that. The end result of these type of ideas is having a class that can't be killed but doesn't really do much. Thats just silly.
Where do people get the idea that a support class is SUPPOSED to be invincible? Is there any other game where the medic or Healer or cleric or whatever its called in that game is as unkillable in neocron? Awesome defense and support abilities are 2 different themes for a class. Combining them is way overpowered. Which one of these do you think a PPU is meant to be? Were not tanks always supposed to be the defense class?
Also IMO PPUs should not be some resource the number of which you have determines your team/clans value. It should be that a sides chance of winning should be proportional to number on each side with the exception that the more specialized you are and gimped by yourself the better you should work with opposing specializations.
IE PE's should own 1v1 combat, APU and PPU should be the best team. After that a tank should be added for the best team to stop people from charging the monks and killing them and then a spy to combat long range capability. (Right now monks can fight fine up close but read on...)
Anyways I wanted to add some more about what the effects would be of psychic feedback weapons and add 2 more ideas about tweaking monks.
-Since shields/deflectors have been nerfed on others, weapons that did damage based on the amount of shileding someone had on would specifically target PPUs. (moderate damage for the heaviest shielding) This would make it a better idea than sheild piercing ammo as far as not harming PPUS abillity to help others.
-Making PPU's killable would not in any way trivialize group combat. Yes PPU's would be, (and are now even) a #1 target in group fights- but obviously the people being supported by a ppu are going to defend him in turn. If someones in your face with a CS your still not going to be able to ignore him and go kill the ppu, especially if it takes a little bit of effort to kill the ppu. To really know the effects for sure they would have to be tested as theres to many factors to comprehend easily, but IMO it couldnt possibly be worse than now.
-Every PPU special ability would be drastically reduced in power indirectly if PPU's could be killed more easily. However parashock IS overpowered a little under the old freezer argument, and to that I say why not leave its slow % the same but reduce the duration to like 3-5 seconds. Enough to time to run away or provide a small window of opportunity for an easier kill, but not enough to be assured death. Also remove most of the damage so spamming it is pointless. This also leaves other classes freezers usefull since they slow less effectively but for longer.
-Right now an APU or PPU can do awesome damage or use their effects at anywhere under long range. At medium range they rule because they dont have to aim at all, they just point and click. At close range their aiming is only second to melee. Why not nerf their up close attack ability somewhat to give the game more of a rock paper scissors thing going on. Make other classes have strong points. Make moving and casting much harder to do. Not IMPOSSIBLE, but much harder. I think the perfect way to do it is to base the chance of failure on movement of your view direction, not your run speed.
In summary my ideas are:
- Make a Psi feedback pistol, rifle, and cannon that damages based on amount of shielding. (Kill a ppu in 45-60 seconds, little use against others)
and
-Make Holy Paralysis and other Parashocks have 3-5 second duration, little or no damage, but same freeze %
and
-Make Psi users Miscast much easier while moving their view direction quickly ie fighting up close targets, but not while moving around.
Quite funni how SD's whole arguement is based around "if u dont have a PPU u are screwed" and the ppl who support him come and say "too few ppus haha" no-else see the discrepancy here?
I wanna ask - tried to playa T2 clannie without a specialised capper? If u dont have one ur going to lose - thats a team game no?
Anyways best idea so far to reduce dependency on monks is Kramers - below.
As for the never ending resserructions - what about a level 40 or so str grenade - it blows up bodies into lil pieces so they cant be ressed.
No matter what ppl want KK wants this to be a team game - u cant go back a year and change their decision on that - (although I would if i could) and lack of players IS making the "team" thing difficult for ppl.
QuantumDelta
25-10-03, 16:24
Originally posted by ZigZag
I wanna ask - tried to playa T2 clannie without a specialised capper? If u dont have one ur going to lose - thats a team game no?
Apart from HD.
I could play every single god damn role in that game and more, to the level that most of the "specialists" did, or better.
Sadly someone signed on to BlueYonder Kata and broke my capping record when no one else was on server (9 seconds is still respectable I suppose...but with no enemies?).
From Server start spawn, my fastest grab / cap was 13 seconds.
From a mid-field position my grabs were almost always never intercepted.
I prefered mid field combat (my team rarely loses because I am either LD..and faster than most cappers......or..... I fly around in mid field and blow the crap outta anyone and everyone red. :p)
.....Tribes comparisons doesn't really work here.
I said something like this to SD;
Neocron has been rebalanced several times since it's conception, and the most recent rebalance has seen all the offencive combat characters given balance with eachother in terms of solo combat, when played to their best degrees of their class, they are all (besides very minor tweaks), equal.
Neocron was intended to be a team game, but the community (I admit I am in part responcible for that) had it changed to a more personal level.
The PPU, the only character which is truly devoted to TEAMWORK, unlike all the other classes, automatically becomes the most powerful and the most important character when teamwork is required.
More over, the PPU throws all defence vs offence vs ability style balance out the window and re-writes the rulebook, which, currently, means that as soon as a PPU is introduced.................
(read on from my second post).
Dribble Joy
25-10-03, 16:46
Arg, I hate not having t'internet at home.
I dunno about S/D being self cast only, seems a bit mean to the other classes, especially APUs.
If it was restricted to the holy versions that would be cool. Give PEs a bit more use, and PPUs could still use the blessed versions.
That and holy heal being reduced would be nice.
I like the idea of dead peoples screens going black, I would make it immediate, you're dead, how the fuck do you know if your mates are all dead and you might as well GR? Thata and making dead people GR automatically after 1 or 2 mins would be OK... possibly, I dunno, just a sugestion.
Shadow Dancer
25-10-03, 18:59
Originally posted by ZigZag
Quite funni how SD's whole arguement is based around "if u dont have a PPU u are screwed" and the ppl who support him come and say "too few ppus haha" no-else see the discrepancy here?
My arguement is based on them being too important and/or having TOO much of an influence on battle. I don't give a rat's ass if their pure support.
Originally posted by ZigZag
Anyways best idea so far to reduce dependency on monks is Kramers - below.
That doesnt' reduce the dependency on monks ONE bit. It simply changes the way heal works. But you'll STILL need that heal, or shelter, or someone to debuff the person that is healing/sheltering.
:rolleyes: Try looking at the root of the problem, kthx. Kramer is simply upset at apu/ppu teams. Chances are his change will lower their effectiveness, but that's it. It in NO way changes the dependency on monks.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Arg, I hate not having t'internet at home.
I dunno about S/D being self cast only, seems a bit mean to the other classes, especially APUs.
How would it be unfair to apus? With the right buffs I still can have high resists and like 480 health.
Perhaps KK can improve group heal spells and heal sanctums if they do this change.
QD I played NC all through Beta4 - it was an individual game at that point - I have to say for me - far more fun.
Not that tanks were the best class - PEs with their epr's were really strong as were spies (if they were good) - monks.. I duelled sid all thro beta and it was never certain who would win. Para was in the game but not many used it - no damage boost as it was in EPU, as was res. I dont say it was balanced then because we didnt know much about high level chars but no one needed any particular class in an op war etc - with numbers as they are now - perhaps forcing "team" was never a good idea.
T2 comparisons - not perhaps in gameplay - but i just watched a recording of my clan playing without me - I was specialist LD - but because I was not there our capper had to play LD - we never capped once against a clan we usually beat. Its the same principle - if u dont have the team - u dont win.
Shadow Dancer
25-10-03, 19:17
Originally posted by ZigZag
perhaps forcing "team" was never a good idea.
I believe it wasn't a good idea. I understand REWARDING teamwork, but forcing it? :(
I can't stand all these mmorpgs' obsession with forced teaming. That's why I can't play EQ.
Originally posted by Garet
If half you people had an effective PPU in your clan you wouldnt whine so much about PPU's.
PPU's are not the problem...The problem for all of the moaners is the LACK of PPU's in the game which means that sometimes in op wars and battles one side has a PPU and the other doesnt.
Doesnt make the PPU unbalanced, makes the mix of players unbalanced. GET IT STRAIGHT. PPU on each side and they cancel each other out. BOTH can do the same boosts and shocks and BOTH have the ability to remove those same effects from there own team.
NOTHING wrong with para. I have never seen a battle yet where both clans had PPU's but moaned afterwards about the use of para shock.
QUIT whining....Get a PPU in your clan or reroll your character to PPU but pls for gods sake stop moaning just because you get killed sometimes.
Oh dear god..... do you even know what you are talking about? What we are "whining" about? What this entire thread is about?
Your post has just shown why there is such a massive problem. To compete in OP wars your team needs to have a PPU, you said it yourself. Now don't you see that as a problem? No, well you GET IT STRAIGHT. Then come back when you know what your are talking about.
Originally posted by Judge
Your post has just shown why there is such a massive problem. To compete in OP wars your team needs to have a PPU, you said it yourself. Now don't you see that as a problem? No, well you GET IT STRAIGHT. Then come back when you know what your are talking about.
Exactly. You should need a ppu to compete in ops wars or pvp. A ppu should only be support and just improve your team. And by making shelter/deflector selfcast only you'll take away the need to have a ppu else you won't have a chance. PPus will still have heal with is still a very powerful spell, but can't give people godlike defenses so if the other team has more firepower or are better organized they'll win.
What many people seem to fail to grasp is that NC is far different than what other games are...has been ever since its inception, and still is despite many efforts on numerous sides to alter the game.
SD is right, Team play should only be rewarded, not forced. If you want to solo, go ahead. If you want to do a team, with the right amount of coordination and complementation, you can do a lot better than if you were alone. However, every team would always have a flaw that could kill them if that flaw was exploited (I don't mean game-mechanics exploit.), and they CAN become great, just not invincible.
This is a endgame-PvP-oriented FPS 'shooter' RPG. A rarity, I have only seen one game that had the same kind of exact genre, but lo and behold, I am here and not there. =)
Anyway, there is a famous quote about said other game that amuses me.
"The most loved job is the Doctor, yet it's the most hated as well."
A perfect description of such if I may say so myself. However, just like every other class, it had its flaws solo AND in teams.
If I recall correctly, some of the best clans in that particular game didn't have any doctors at all. And yet some more had doctors too.
You got your bread and butter melee unit, your generic shooter, and your rockets and shields and heals and all. While any team can operate with any combination, each has their own distinct shortcomings.
The problem HERE, is that someone as powerful as the Doctor, or even more powerful.. *glances to the PPU* ..is not meant to exist in this realm. Not to me at any rate. Granted, I once played someone more powerful than the PPU here, so I am experienced in how this class of playstyle is.
While the other game I mentioned is set in terms of EQ, this game is set in terms of two main things.
1.) First Person Shooter. Neofrag, cover (boxes and such), enhancement devices, and the endgame rares say as much.
2.) Strategy. While the other game had some of that too, it was more about who had more turrets. Here, it's more about the people.
Also keep in mind that I have not been around since after beta-4, and I come to this world unbiased. I hold no class in favor of another, I feel each is to their own in terms of strategy and setup, and it takes a lot for me to deem a tactic 'wrong'. But I am not unbending to my own ideals, for I can only understand what this game is about with interaction with you fine folks. ;)
@ judge and all u others - go look at patch 160 notes (or somewhere near that time) we complained about the forced teaming - they went ahead. It was the same time they brought in specialisation.
The MMORPG players kept telling the beta4 players who liked the PvP syle of NC that we should "go play quake". We tried - then we adapted - something new ppl dont realise - KK wanted it this way - and that is why u dont understand what garet is getting at.
Zig, much like QD, I won't comment on Garet's post, but my reason is because of a paradox it alleviates to.
Also, I'm not quite sure on who's side you're on right now... O_o; I feel a bit confused, don't mind me. :D
Edit: Ah what the hell, I'll just sum it up.
Game's monkocron, yet Garet mentioned lack of PPUs.
Originally posted by ZigZag
@ judge and all u others - go look at patch 160 notes (or somewhere near that time) we complained about the forced teaming - they went ahead. It was the same time they brought in specialisation.
The MMORPG players kept telling the beta4 players who liked the PvP syle of NC that we should "go play quake". We tried - then we adapted - something new ppl dont realise - KK wanted it this way - and that is why u dont understand what garet is getting at.
If we all adapted to the changes that KK gave us without complaining then atm everyone would be hybrids with godmode. No thanks. It may be KKs game, but it is ours as well. We have spent alot of time on the game and quite alot of us feel very dedicated to the game. We want it to do well and to be as good as it can be, this subject is ruining tht game for alot of people. Thus we want it changed. We can complain and ask for change as much as we want, to get our own way. We don't want to lie down and take every nerf and overpowered spell as law, we want to feel that our input can change the game and change it for the better.
Sorry Judge, I kinda find that mindset a bit off.. =\
Besides, KK didn't want hybrids in the equation (in the sense to be a dominant class) anyway.
Thats cool.... tbh I'm just getting sick and tired of trying to be nice to everyone. I'm pissed of with alot of the game and I'm pretty much waiting for DoY as I just cannot be bothered to play the game as it stands.
I want to play the old neocron, when it was cyberpunk and monks didn't rule the world.
Strange...I thought monks had some extreme presence throughout the game...
But anyways, Judge, I can understand, and I'm sorry, but I suppose I should have thought about WHY your post seemed off...
Anyways, hope ya feel better =\
ok i hope everybody can read/understand this because my english is a little bit tp bad :D
So,
I must say im an old Gamer (beta4) and i saw how the Monks have change, before the Skill MST come, it was funny to play a monk for me because u could be a hybrid.But this is now not importent.
PPU's are for me to heavy, because when i attack one for example he put shelter,def and so on it and he don't become any dmg from me.That suckt.
I hope it would be get changes in the Monk "skillung".
cYa Elfisho
PS: I hope that was the right text for the right topic =)
^^ just lower the holy heal,deflector and shelter defensive rates a bit^.. then more damage goes through all the time.. and then it goes faster with killing them...
---------------------------
Plz implement spell of Server Restoration O_o then i could fire it on pluto and restore uranus ^^
Original monk
26-10-03, 10:39
I went ppu'ing mc5 this weekend, also chaoscaves, crystalcaves and graves (shitdrops goddamnit :D) and had all them nerf the ppu's suggestions in my head...
Onlything i think is that like 99% of the idea's here gonna inflict major imbalances to the game :/ and i think KK gonna have even more work re-balancing everything they unbalanced when they would nerf the PPU :) so that gives em less time for intresting things like make new weapons and introduce new mobs.
Also this thread isnt constructive at all, most ideas are yust reflections of peoples personal anger towards being freezed in pepper park or during op's i think :) its getting a bit funny (or sad , i dunno how to call it), ya hear suggestions from nerf the para with 10% to remove the monk class lol
Well anyway ill let ya guys fight some more till ya get the biggest possible nerf available, 2 bad for all the people playing exclusivly PPU a for the most of there virtual lifes here, luckely that aint me ...
enjoy playing and postin im off capping them daamn ints of my spy :/
Originally posted by Original monk
I went ppu'ing mc5 this weekend, also chaoscaves, crystalcaves and graves (shitdrops goddamnit :D) ^
There it is.... it´s right there !!!!
Look at what he just wrote.. ^^ notice that he is a monk.. and he is at mc5 ^^ how many people that AREN´T monks, do you see surviving MC5 (or soloing them as it seems he did, with what i read from his statement)..
I got 2 monks myself.. a ppu and an apu... sure I want them to keep being ubar.. but would be nice to be able to take my tank to mc5... I don´t really care about the PPU being so damn tough.. they are SUPPOSED to be tough, seeing as they pretty much cant damage at all !! but invulnerability to all "normal" attacks is a tad to powerfull..
Original monk
26-10-03, 12:53
Originally posted by naimex
^
There it is.... it´s right there !!!!
Look at what he just wrote.. ^^ notice that he is a monk.. and he is at mc5 ^^ how many people that AREN´T monks, do you see surviving MC5 (or soloing them as it seems he did, with what i read from his statement)..
I got 2 monks myself.. a ppu and an apu... sure I want them to keep being ubar.. but would be nice to be able to take my tank to mc5... I don´t really care about the PPU being so damn tough.. they are SUPPOSED to be tough, seeing as they pretty much cant damage at all !! but invulnerability to all "normal" attacks is a tad to powerfull..
euh i was at mc5 with a tank yeah and i was ppuing the tank atm, later on he logged hes apumonk also but he died alot cause he wasnt that hilevel so we went true with the tank and it went pretty smooth i must say :) and altough we had shitdrops from the commander it was pretty nice in there yeah, i enjoy being locked up in a 4 by 5 room togheter with a bunch of disguised copbots simultainiously shooting at you, if they nerf the ppu i make a poll to remove the mc5 engineer, theguy with the uzi inside, hes way overpowerd ... not only on monks
But youre right i still prefer a apu/pputeam cause thats the fastest easiest combination... and if you ever want to survvive inside there with youre tankbuffs then they better start nerfing mc5 :)
KRIMINAL99
26-10-03, 17:00
Originally posted by naimex
^^ just lower the holy heal,deflector and shelter defensive rates a bit^.. then more damage goes through all the time.. and then it goes faster with killing them...
---------------------------
Plz implement spell of Server Restoration O_o then i could fire it on pluto and restore uranus ^^
LOL im so stupid, talking about psi feedback weapons when they can just lessen the defense of their sheilds a little bit just on themselves and they will be killable again. Yeah I agree thats what should be done, although I don't know about the holy heal part. I think holy heal should be left alone and see how they fair with just a self shield nerf first.
EDIT: I forgot about apus. Maybe they should just lower PPUs shields/deflectors on themselves a bit and just remove antibuff. Or maybe not guess it would have to be tested to see how they fair with lower shields and antibuff around.
ye, make lower ppu shielding buffs go on a trial on test server ^^
too bad i cant get on the fecking test server.. keep telling me there are corrupt files after ive patched it.. ^^
reinstalled test server install 5 times now.. same errors over and over...
Progenitor
26-10-03, 20:39
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
LOL im so stupid, talking about psi feedback weapons when they can just lessen the defense of their sheilds a little bit just on themselves and they will be killable again. Yeah I agree thats what should be done, although I don't know about the holy heal part. I think holy heal should be left alone and see how they fair with just a self shield nerf first.
EDIT: I forgot about apus. Maybe they should just lower PPUs shields/deflectors on themselves a bit and just remove antibuff. Or maybe not guess it would have to be tested to see how they fair with lower shields and antibuff around.
If it is some kind of anti-PSI item, I don't want it to be a weapon - It needs to be an implant or bone that the user will have to make a decision to be a monk killer.
-p
*-*- NERF PARA -*-*
[Not on this thread - Gungnir]
I think para and res are the only 2 things that need NERFing, para destroys skill and the ammount of reses when there is jsut 2 PPUS left is to much. Other than that i think that PPUs are fine.
KRIMINAL99
27-10-03, 05:30
Originally posted by Progenitor
If it is some kind of anti-PSI item, I don't want it to be a weapon - It needs to be an implant or bone that the user will have to make a decision to be a monk killer.
-p
Im sure you do, but Im afraid that falls a little short of the goal here. They have more defense than the defense specific character. And its not like they have 2000 hitpoints and it takes a bit to kill them. 2 characters could attack a PPU at the same time right now and just completely waste their ammo.
ONE character should be able to kill the support class.. and easily at that. Not quickly, but easily. Of course their abilities are overpowered if they cant freaking be stopped from using them without 3 plus people trying at once.
I think now its becoming obvious whats really going on with all these requests to nerf their abilities but leave their defense so high, which common sense says is absolutely rediculous. It seems to me that all the people who wish they were good and freak out every time they die or lose have taken residence in this class. Not to help other people as a genuine support player would, but to be an uber unkillable player and then claim its their skills. PPU is the LAST place for those types. You don't need to be utterly invincible to heal and ress and shield your teammates.
And yes, I have played a ppu along with all other classes before.
Shadow Dancer
27-10-03, 07:04
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
I think now its becoming obvious whats really going on with all these requests to nerf their abilities but leave their defense so high, which common sense says is absolutely rediculous. It seems to me that all the people who wish they were good and freak out every time they die or lose have taken residence in this class. Not to help other people as a genuine support player would, but to be an uber unkillable player and then claim its their skills. PPU is the LAST place for those types. You don't need to be utterly invincible to heal and ress and shield your teammates.
wow, you echo my thoughts exactly.
Remove the parashock already.
or will we have a complete nerf?
<whine> If you nerf-bat the shelters and heal I will delete my capped ppu. I hope people will whine about not having ppus then. </whine>
Personally I think the removal of the parashock will be a very good step. This will actually allow people to use tactics and skill in a fight (freezing someone and then kill isn't fun).
However, I want to be able to stand in the middle of 5 chasers and not die. I want to be able to stand among 5 tanks and not be killed. That is the only fun I can have. What I extend to others is 50% of my powers.
If you meet a ppu with a fighter and the ppu have parashock, you stand no chance. BUT if you aren't freezed you actually have a chance to "skill out" them.
Maybe you run fast, maybe you stealth or maybe you surprise them and kill the fighter, allowing you to escape while the ppu rezzes (which is quite impossible if you're freezed).
It would sure be more fun without the parashock. Hell, my new apu would actually be more fun to play.
Remove all freeze spells...
Original monk
27-10-03, 13:05
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
I think now its becoming obvious whats really going on with all these requests to nerf their abilities but leave their defense so high, which common sense says is absolutely rediculous. It seems to me that all the people who wish they were good and freak out every time they die or lose have taken residence in this class. Not to help other people as a genuine support player would, but to be an uber unkillable player and then claim its their skills. PPU is the LAST place for those types. You don't need to be utterly invincible to heal and ress and shield your teammates.
If if i dont believe that you figure out some other stuff to whine about .....
So people become a PPU because they are skill-less and they wish they where good, NOT to help people like any genuine supportchar would do BUT because they wonna be unkillable to later claim they are ubber skilled :rolleyes: okie i heard alot allready but wtf are you talking about ?
so criminal, you call this a decent reason to nerf down a class ? I am lucky not everyone thinks the same way as you do :p
Do you actually need skill in this game ? you have to aim at a freaking box lol, not at someones head or sumthing, at a freaking square box LOL, Ok when you wonna kill 2 tanks upclose with a riflespy, then ya better start thinkin on plannin some tactics.. but with a monk ? its yust point and click remember ...
As soon as people dont know what to say anymore then its about skill, most of the people here play like a 100 diffrent games for years now, including alot of fps, i dont think we need anymore skill ...
f.e.: OMG i killed you mhuahha get some skill man, noobie woot woot ( yust to say that you entred PP with a weapon and got shot by a copbot, thats yust dumb, its has nothing to do with youre opponent ubberskills i think...)
Tenchi_Runyo
27-10-03, 13:22
KK really needs a reality boost, they're just going to keep nerfing everything until suddenly were using foam darts and it takes 50 minutes for a highest leveled character to kill another. PPU's are meant to be so strong because they have no really good attack, if you nerf them then you'll just end up killing ppu's and then there will be no really good healing class. Sure I'm ppu and love being immortal but I also love helping my clan(long live tg). I personnaly have nothing against nerfing para spells because I never use them but if you nerf buffs and shields and heals then you'll just ikill them totally.
Alot of pages here... read 2 of em but to lazy to read em all :x
My thoughts:
Most chars are pretty well balanced at this moment, the only thing thats happening is that PPU is fucking up that balance.
(note in the following I speak of overal unboosted resists so skill plus armour)
* A tank usualy has around 4 of 6 resists almost capped and 1 half way capped.
So there is little a PPU can do to help him except with shelter and heavy combat booster, the other boosts are helping but barely noticeable.
* A PE has good resists but further away from capped resists, a PPU can overpower them more than a tank but not as much as the remaining 2 classes. Both Shelter and deflector are usefull for this char, so are resist boosters and rifle/pistol boosters.
*A properly setup spy can do fairly well in close range PvP, he can have 2 resists close almost capped ( with his belt and PA ), and he can have a fair amount of other resist(s) which can be boosted by a monk towards almost tanklike hights. Its only lack is his health bar, speed and endurance.
*A monk has lowest resists because only the heavy belts realy give him a good armour addition, he/she can cap one resist and add another average resist with skill, thus he/she can be overpowered in extreem ways, a apu monk has all the fighting skills (extreem damage) and with a ppu at his side it makes up for him not having defensive spells.
Thus you have killingmachine or SuperSoldier ;)
Altho I sympatise with the 'make monks hybrid' idea, I don't think its fair towards the monks who became PPU because of their love for them, instead of the need for them. =)
Another thing to concider is the story, the story tells that monks have weird powers, you might even say superiour powers but if they where superiour they would not have let themselves be commanded by Thor. The story also tells that Tanks where created to be neocron's uber killing machines, thus they must have been superiour to monks.
Right now withoud a monk around the first 3 characters are balanced, the tank can have the upper hand but only when he doesn't screw his setup up, the pe's are a little stronger than the spy's but again only when they didn't screw up their setup.
Spy are probably the hardest character to create a uber setup for but it pays off, and stealth finishes it off (btw I would nerf that stealth a bit, not remove it)
Monk Sollution:
APU:
Apu monks do large amount of damage but die easily when attacked with piercing, they are very close to be balanced, the only problem is they can use so many different attack spells. Nobody can defend themselves against all of his possible attacks, and to gamble on what apu's usualy use at the moment is to be ready to lom later on again and again and again ;)
At this point I say nerf the poison attacks and/or the stack damage ( even tho not used that often at this moment ) so they become something like the tanks gatlin cannon, a secondary attack when realy needed but with alot lower damage.
PPU:
-Let the effects of most spells stay the same when casting on himself.
-Rebalance the holy and blessed heal so that outhealing a target becomes impossible and outhealing him/her-self becomes very difficuld.
-Lower the effects of resist boosting spells by 50%
-Lower the effects of shelter and deflecter on another by 50%
-Change the PvP skill boosters 2 towards: skill +7 *
-Change the PvP skill boosters 3 towards: skill +10 *
-Change the rate of the parashock spell to ones a minute, and make it so that it stops the ppu from casting any other spell within that minute. Also lower the TL of the spell so low level PPU monks and hybrids can use it, the new function would become to run and hide from one opposing enemy, think of lowbie pking gits :x
-And last, when someone dies, he should auto genrep towards his appartment when he does not choose a genrep within 2,5 minutes AND the rezz spells should be nerfed in terms of rate of cast. ( one ressurect a minute or something )
*with PvP skill boosters I mean things like rifle combat booster 2/3 and heavy combat booster 2/3
With this nerf I think all other characters will be more usefull again and the ppu monks themselves will still be usefull enough to be wanted for op wars, but just don't have the upper hand any longer.
___T-X____
27-10-03, 15:41
Remove them all, and rework the Rares by replacing any level of Freezing weopon /defence (har har) PPU's are the character class that abuses the ability to freeze. Dont remove the PPU, its too drastic...just get rid of freezing.
Every class takes the same hit then, they havent added any value to the game.
Rework the rares at your leasure - just remove all freezers immediately....
EDIT : BTW, is this an exercise in cleaning up the forums before you try to sign a publisher ? or do you have an implementation date for the suggestion that rectifies the ppu/ Freezing problem KK ?
jeez....
guys
ROOOFFFLLL !!!
Some of you are coming up with some absofuckinglutely hilarious Ideas, they make me laugh so much :lol:
Nerf a PPU as much as your talkin is funneh, take away rez, take away para, take aaway heal, take away this and that, bejebus even nerf buffs :lol: bwahahaha
Youll love the day that you tarts get PPUs nerfed, then try to go hunting, or goto MC5 etc, and realise you fucking nerfed your ONLY lifeline at those places into the ground and pissed on them, or the first OP fight after the patch, where it lasts 20 seconds..... :rolleyes:
hows about this one eh ?
JUST FECKING REMOVE HOLY PARALYSIS .....
Original monk
27-10-03, 17:09
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
jeez....
guys
ROOOFFFLLL !!!
Some of you are coming up with some absofuckinglutely hilarious Ideas, they make me laugh so much :lol:
Nerf a PPU as much as your talkin is funneh, take away rez, take away para, take aaway heal, take away this and that, bejebus even nerf buffs :lol: bwahahaha
Youll love the day that you tarts get PPUs nerfed, then try to go hunting, or goto MC5 etc, and realise you fucking nerfed your ONLY lifeline at those places into the ground and pissed on them, or the first OP fight after the patch, where it lasts 20 seconds..... :rolleyes:
hows about this one eh ?
JUST FECKING REMOVE HOLY PARALYSIS .....
priceless :P
I think they started sumthing and they cant retreat anymore (Kk that is).
Thats what i was afraid for...
Now everybody starts "hating" PPU's (deja vu: hybrids) posting nerf the PPu etc in siggy and KK gets paranoid (ONOZ all our playerz hate PPuZ) and the only solution will be a BIG overall NERF like -30-40 % or sumthing. And yeah this all started out as someone that didnt liked being parashocked....
Hehe i wonna see all them people hunt mc5 with selfcastable buffs (unless they nerf MC5 to dead, bye bye hilevel content)...
PPU's keep youre loms ready :)
Originally posted by Original monk
priceless :P
I think they started sumthing and they cant retreat anymore (Kk that is).
Thats what i was afraid for...
Now everybody starts "hating" PPU's (deja vu: hybrids) posting nerf the PPu etc in siggy and KK gets paranoid (ONOZ all our playerz hate PPuZ) and the only solution will be a BIG overall NERF like -30-40 % or sumthing. And yeah this all started out as someone that didnt liked being parashocked....
Hehe i wonna see all them people hunt mc5 with selfcastable buffs (unless they nerf MC5 to dead, bye bye hilevel content)...
PPU's keep youre loms ready :)
in which case the PE would turn into MC5 masters...
the only problem is parashock, we ALL know that, yet some head hunters wanna completely fuck over a whole sup class because they dont have someone near them with antiparalyze/cath/holycath/cathsanct ot they havent brought some antipara drugs.... o_O Anyway guys, ejust remove para for christs sake, dont completely nerf out a fucking PPU because you cant kill them, get a APU, They rape a PPU thats not prepared, antibuff is fucking harsh, another thing you guys should consider is what about the tart above that suggested halving all PPU buffs, enrfing the heal, nerfing their shelter and deflector, upping mana, lowering ROF, making range like melle, OH MY GAWD BWAHAHAHAHA why not just leave the game now, because 10 fuckin minutes after they introduce this nerf patch your gonna realise what tarts you guys were for nerfing PPU's just that much, when red faced you leave the game, because its shite and you cant do anything, because you killed off the PPU subclass :rolleyes:
Progenitor
27-10-03, 17:28
Not only that, but the more PPU gets nerfed in general, it will cascade down to all the other classes that use ppu skills.
-p
I think that any changes that are made need to be done slowly and over a few weeks. Say week one make parashock Mob only. See how that works for the community, then week two if that wasn't enough then do something else. etc etc
whoa there nelly
fuck nerfing PPU's !!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone here put the effort into reading the neochronicle ?!? They are making antistuns instant with a lasting effect, THE END OF PARASPAM !!!
so bugger off ye, before i spam you o_O
___T-X____
27-10-03, 18:58
Say week one make parashock Mob only.
Would work fine, KK need to just plus theyre fucking finger out and get something done.
All you Hybrids can fuck off, trying to squeeze your unbalanced asses back into the game on the back of Parashock etc.
The door can stay fucking closed to you 105/75*** lamers.
Original monk
27-10-03, 19:09
Originally posted by ___T-X____
All you Hybrids can fuck off, trying to squeeze your unbalanced asses back into the game on the back of Parashock etc.
The door can stay fucking closed to you 105/75*** lamers.
says the biggest unbalanced hybrid of all (123/sumthing) hehe, yeah you tw@ :P
Originally posted by Judge
I think that any changes that are made need to be done slowly and over a few weeks. Say week one make parashock Mob only. See how that works for the community, then week two if that wasn't enough then do something else. etc etc
Yeah so the ppu's wont even notice it :P hehe
Nah youre actually right drikie, if there are comming any changes then do it so that it wont destabalize this entire game, i bet there are hundreds of situations where we didnt even tought of that will entirely shake up this game ... i hope if the ppu gets nerfed that we all wont be running around as 0/2 pe's called (unknown) hehe.
I have no straight examples but i do know that those so called overpowered heals and stuff have saved me loads of time and troubles in the past so i cant even think about whats happening when the ppu gets actually nerfed :/
I dont give an example on purpose because of people (not you drikie) that like to only read the pieces what they like of it :)
But to stick to youre step by step changings to the ppu: yup youre right, but we cant forget that the people that play mainly PPU would still like to know what will be happening to their chars, If ya gonna use em as guiniepigs i doubt there are gonna stay alot of people PPU, its still about helping people in contradiction to what other people claim about being a skill-less person that yust wonna be immortal for once also :)
When the helping part dissapears and ends up in a contest of nerfing the PPU over a long time then the conclusion of: lom fast to apu (heck we cant help people out so we gonna show em that ex-ppu's DO have pvp skill :P ending in overcrowded apu servers packed with aggresive ex-ppu APU's hehe)
Why do i pull this in extreme ? Because i dont know whats happening if they nerf the PPU a tinyeenyweeny littlebit to hard, and im imagining myself the most crazy situations allready :P
Like overcrowded with apumonks servers with a small amount of nerfed ppu's to counter these apu's :) or even worse, with the removal of parashock: the rezzurection of mellee, you can see this fenomenon allready on some of the neocronservers :)
**cough *saturn *cough**
good luck playing, go level in the chaoscaves fast, while there is still good xp to catch :)
Originally posted by ___T-X____
The door can stay fucking closed to you 105/75*** lamers.
^^ rank is of no importance... gaming abilities are ^^
rank is merely a constant struggle to try and beat GM rank ^^
Originally posted by naimex
^^ rank is of no importance... gaming abilities are ^^
rank is merely a constant struggle to try and beat GM rank ^^
its been done, and tbh that just shows you how fucked the game is, when a GM with overcapped everything get's lower rank that pete the psi on the test server when he had a hybrid there, with 128/71 rank or something totally rediculous like that O_o
___T-X____
27-10-03, 19:18
says the biggest unbalanced hybrid of all (123/sumthing) :P
I have never played a monk, _never_ even rolled one just to see - because by the time i'd developed my Tank and Spies the Monk class had become that fucked up, I didnt know where to start. - Youve got the wrong geezer.
btw - Considering Tanks are the fighting Class - why can every other class have a better combat / experience rank ?....
Theres no place in the current game for Hybrids. KK need to back track, and get some fundamentals right in balancing before they start experimenting with Hybriding _any_ class - not just monk lovers.
Original monk
27-10-03, 20:05
Originally posted by ___T-X____
I have never played a monk, _never_ even rolled one just to see - because by the time i'd developed my Tank and Spies the Monk class had become that fucked up, I didnt know where to start. - Youve got the wrong geezer.
btw - Considering Tanks are the fighting Class - why can every other class have a better combat / experience rank ?....
Theres no place in the current game for Hybrids. KK need to back track, and get some fundamentals right in balancing before they start experimenting with Hybriding _any_ class - not just monk lovers.
OW im sorry lol my fault i tought you where zx (aka tw@) must off read to fast and i will hit my head once to a stone wall for that :)
ejoy playing game sorry for the mix up :)
Shadow Dancer
27-10-03, 20:46
Originally posted by Judge
I think that any changes that are made need to be done slowly and over a few weeks. Say week one make parashock Mob only. See how that works for the community, then week two if that wasn't enough then do something else. etc etc
Yea i think this is a good idea. I just wish they would do something already.
ericdraven
27-10-03, 21:00
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Yea i think this is a good idea. I just wish they would do something already.
Read the Neochronicle, they are..
Unfortunately not what you want, but.. life is hard, isn't it? :p
Originally posted by ericdraven
Unfortunately not what you want, but.. life is hard, isn't it? :p
Oh stop making all these snide comments at everyone, it just grates on people nerves.
If what I think they are proposing to do is right then I will certainly try it out, but I'm not sure wether or not it will be enough to sort out PPUs. Parashock is undoubtedly the main issue but there are other issues which can't just be fixed with drugs.
TBH, I find that 2K for a drug that effects you once in combat is a tad to much to basically prevent something that most people want removed and which most people are seeing as the removal of skill from the game. It also doesn't move the dependance on PPUs away, just gives people a way to stop para (presumably) for a min or two.
We'll see whether it is enough, but for once I think that KK might be treading too softly. Surprising as that may seem considering their track record for nerfs and boosts, the sledgehammer approach that is.
ericdraven
27-10-03, 22:39
Originally posted by Judge
We'll see whether it is enough, but for once I think that KK might be treading too softly. Surprising as that may seem considering their track record for nerfs and boosts, the sledgehammer approach that is.
Yes, it seems they learned enough from the past and come up with their own solutions and do not follow all those whiners on the forum who gladly would see if the PPU completely gets destroyed.
Shadow Dancer
27-10-03, 23:39
Originally posted by ericdraven
Yes, it seems they learned enough from the past and come up with their own solutions and do not follow all those whiners on the forum who gladly would see if the PPU completely gets destroyed.
I agree. And thank god they also don't listen to teh whiners who whine about whiners and kiss's KK's arse and never think anything is wrong with the game. Know what I mean? :)
Btw, if they make anti paralyze have a preventative effect, then i'm worried about poison. It looks like their going to make poison spells completely useless. :( I hope if they improve the poison drugs that at least they give us bloodviper poison. :D :D
Originally posted by ericdraven
Read the Neochronicle, they are..
Of course I read the neocronicle, didn't you read the thread? :p
Originally posted by ericdraven
Unfortunately not what you want, but.. life is hard, isn't it? :p
stfu noob
If they "fix" the drugs so that para isn't a problem then I won't mind. But I don't even know wtf their doing with the drugs. Making instant isn't good enough IMO. You need to tweak the spell itself as well.
Originally posted by Judge
If what I think they are proposing to do is right then I will certainly try it out, but I'm not sure wether or not it will be enough to sort out PPUs. Parashock is undoubtedly the main issue but there are other issues which can't just be fixed with drugs.
TBH, I find that 2K for a drug that effects you once in combat is a tad to much to basically prevent something that most people want removed and which most people are seeing as the removal of skill from the game. It also doesn't move the dependance on PPUs away, just gives people a way to stop para (presumably) for a min or two.
We'll see whether it is enough, but for once I think that KK might be treading too softly. Surprising as that may seem considering their track record for nerfs and boosts, the sledgehammer approach that is.
YES, i agree with every single word you said.
Btw Eric, I was only for the removal of ppu because I felt there's no way to fix the problem while keeping the ppu intact(and useful). Of course, if there's a way to fix the problem and still keep the ppu, then hell yes I'm all for it. :) I still love you though. :)
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
whoa there nelly
fuck nerfing PPU's !!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone here put the effort into reading the neochronicle ?!? They are making antistuns instant with a lasting effect, THE END OF PARASPAM !!!
so bugger off ye, before i spam you o_O I think thats a totally valid and acceptable solution to the parashock problem but I dont think that completely solves the PPU problem. I'd like Rez cast time to be increased for one, but basically I think it all comes down to Holy Heal. Thats what makes a PPU uber. And I think other PPUs can agree with me. If a PPU was only able to shelter/deflect his team then the PPU would have an absolutely huge decrease in ability. It would be really nice to see the effectiveness of a heal diminish if cast on some one else.
So lets see.
1. Instant use drugs with a lasting effect
2. Take away the damage from Paralysis spells.
3. Rez cast time increased by 2-4 times as long
4. Heal cast on other players decreased
I think that would be a perfect solution. A PPUs personal strength would not be diminished at all. He could still have the same level buffs and heal as before. He could still use his Paralysis spell. And he would definitely still be useful in a team, but think about it.
For one you might not be able to outdamage the PPU's self heal, but you could certianly do it against a PPU's heal on another player. That makes it easier to kill players besides the PPU. And with a longer rez cast time, the PPU wouldnt really be able to rez his team mates during battle if he was under a large amount of fire. So how about it?
my holy heal gives my PPU the instane rank of 79/55 ***
I have like artifact antipoison, tru sight, some other high slotted spells, but no, its the lowest TL of the lot, the holy heal that slaps my rank up 18 more than all my other spells :eek: (5 slot ultimated btw, Carinths old one :))
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
my holy heal gives my PPU the instane rank of 79/55 ***
I have like artifact antipoison, tru sight, some other high slotted spells, but no, its the lowest TL of the lot, the holy heal that slaps my rank up 18 more than all my other spells :eek: (5 slot ultimated btw, Carinths old one :))
It's becuase you compeltely cap holy heal and you have a lot of psw.
Originally posted by petek480
It's becuase you compeltely cap holy heal and you have a lot of psw.
I dont cap it tho, that i know of anyway o_O ill check later tho
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
my holy heal gives my PPU the instane rank of 79/55 ***
I have like artifact antipoison, tru sight, some other high slotted spells, but no, its the lowest TL of the lot, the holy heal that slaps my rank up 18 more than all my other spells :eek: (5 slot ultimated btw, Carinths old one :)) So uh, does that mean you agree with my suggestion or don't? :confused:
im not too sure about the rez time to be honest, considering APUs get around 2 or 3 second casts on their antibuufs...
Me and 2 APUs were at blackhuill, in our own teamspeak channel, timing heals, buffs, shelts, anti buffs etc all perfectly, took out 8 PPU's that day, awesome fun, only had to rez one of them once aswell...
Just takes team work and timing... thats all, atm 10/min is fastest cast rate for a holy rez, look at a holy antibuff with capped rof, thats like nearly twice as fast or something, theres your chance to rape that PPU thoroughly, hell when we took that lot out at blackhill they wernt even rezzing, they were running around tending to their team etc....
ericdraven
28-10-03, 02:46
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
stfu noob
Ouch, you really hurt me.
But i don't know why YOU call ME noob?
Did you ever play a PPU or where do you get your almighty knowlegde about PPUs from? From watching them at OP fights? Great! :lol:
And then all your noob questions on the forum about spies as you rerolled to one.. i think except about APUs you do not really know anything about this game so if i am da noob you are the ubar-noob. :p
However, i still love you too, of course. :)
Shadow Dancer
28-10-03, 03:05
Originally posted by ericdraven
Ouch, you really hurt me.
But i don't know why YOU call ME noob?
Did you ever play a PPU or where do you get your almighty knowlegde about PPUs from? From watching them at OP fights? Great! :lol:
I was a ppu for a good while, longer than you have. I still remember that thread where you said you played a PPU for liek a few hours then all of a sudden you're like "where's the balance issue?" rofl. Also you don't need to play one to see the effect they have on the game. Much like you didn't need to play a hybrid to know they were overpowered. k thx
Originally posted by ericdraven
And then all your noob questions on the forum about spies as you rerolled to one..
I had leveling questions. Besides, i've probably fought alongside uhhh 2 spies in my whole PvP history. It's not my fault their an endandgered species, unlike the plentiful PPU.
Originally posted by ericdraven
i think except about APUs you do not really know anything about this game so if i am da noob you are the ubar-noob. :p
:lol:
I know a hell of alot more than you, that's for sure.
kthxbye
Originally posted by ericdraven
And then all your noob questions on the forum about spies as you rerolled to one.. i think except about APUs you do not really know anything about this game so if i am da noob you are the ubar-noob. :p
However, i still love you too, of course. :)
Because you know everything about Neocron from capping all those lovely shiney chars in your sig....
There is more to NC knowledge than just capping a character.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
whoa there nelly
fuck nerfing PPU's !!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone here put the effort into reading the neochronicle ?!? They are making antistuns instant with a lasting effect, THE END OF PARASPAM !!!
so bugger off ye, before i spam you o_O
OMG, sex. do it now!!
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